Dear Mary Sue - Thanks for the clarifications. It sounds as if your T. ixioides is probably a garden hybrid between "var. scabra" and "var. ixioides". I put those terms in quotes because the more Jim and I saw, the more we questioned whether it was possible to "draw a line" between, or among, the various T. ixioides we found. I would venture a guess that about half of what we saw could be classified as "intergrades" between the supposed vars. The most common was an intergrade between "var. anilina" and "var. scabra" found throughout middle altitudes in much of the Sierras. Then, west of Red Bluff, we found a form with flowers that appeared to be var. ixioides (rather far out of its usual range ! ), but with scabrous stems (supposedly a pointer to var. scabra). Flattish flowers usually does mean "var. scabra", but I am not sure that tube measurement is a reliable differentiator. Petal shape is sometimes helpful. But, it is a problem... ------------ Georgie