From ???@??? Sun Dec 01 10:35:13 2002 Message-Id: From: "Ernie O'Byrne" Subject: Littonia modesta Date: Sun, 1 Dec 2002 10:19:30 -0000 The Littonia have a thin covering over the seed which is probably what rotted to create the mold. The seed should be fine. It is always desirable to clean any sort of coating off the seed, if it has one, before sowing. Some seed coats have germination inhibitors in them that could delay germination. Ernie O'Byrne Northwest Garden Nursery 86813 Central Road Eugene OR 97402-9284USA Phone: 541 935-3915 FAX: 541 935-0863 Eugene, Oregon is USDA Zone 8a on the map, but we can only grow Zone 7 plants reliably. Member of NARGS, SRGC, RHS, American Primula Society, Meconopsis Group, Alpine-L, Arisaema-L, Hellebore Group From ???@??? Sun Dec 01 07:50:22 2002 Message-Id: From: gerrit oskam Subject: Pasithea Date: Sun, 01 Dec 2002 14:39:30 +0100 Dear Peter, Jane and all, Pasithea proved to be a difficult plant for me to grow until I got the seed collected by Flores & Watson a few years ago. These plants grow and flower very well and gave a lot of seed in 2001. During the winter I try to keep them in an unheated greenhouse where they get some frost (minus 2 or 3 degrees Celsius) despite the cover with double layered plastic during frost periods. Like many plants of the higher elevations they don't like high temperatures either and I usually plunge the pots outside in a sandbed at the end of March. During summer Pasithea can be kept quite dry like other Mediterranean bulbs. An experienced grower once advised me to let the Mediterranean things (Arum etc.) not become dust dry when dormant. I usually keep the pots on a terrace where they receive they some moisture now and then. Best, Gerrit Oskam, Netherlands zone 7-8 From ???@??? Sun Dec 01 07:50:22 2002 Message-Id: From: Billthebulbbaron@aol.com Subject: Difficult Seeds--PBS TOW Date: Sun, 1 Dec 2002 10:10:23 EST In a message dated 11/29/02 8:30:01 PM, janemcgary@earthlink.net writes: << In that connection, I would be interested to know if forum members prefer to buy only flowering-size bulbs, or if they are also interested in smaller bulbs at a lower price. >> Jane, YES!!! For the reasons Alberto mentioned and also since one can buy several bulbs for the price of one there is more chance of at least one doing well, or just the opportunity to perhaps see some variation in color or whatever. I have sold countless thousands of mixed Amaryllis belladonna hybrid 3 year old seedlings at the Farmers' Markets I do to ordinary gardeners to whom I explain that they will have to wait at least a couple years for significant bloom but this way they can get alot more for their money and I can produce the bulbs incredibly cheaply as they are simply dug en masse from direct-seeded beds and sold as is. It is an approach that is great for both the producer and the consumer. Best wishes, Bill the Bulb Baron William R.P. Welch P.O. Box 1736 (UPS: 264 West Carmel Valley Road) Carmel Valley, CA 93924-1736, USA Phone/fax (831) 659-3830 From ???@??? Sun Dec 01 07:56:50 2002 Message-Id: From: IntarsiaCo@aol.com Subject: Difficult Seeds--PBS TOW Date: Sun, 1 Dec 2002 10:54:23 EST In a message dated 11/29/2002 11:30:01 PM Eastern Standard Time, janemcgary@earthlink.net writes: Possibly I am having better luck with my Calochortus collection because it is colder here, and they are inhibited from growth above ground during the wettest months. I get lots of seed from most of the species I grow and am building up a stock of seedlings to distribute when they get a little more size on them. Mark Mazer reported difficulty with Eremurus seeds. These typically germinate after TWO periods of cold chilling; that is, they go through two winters and appear above ground (I don't know if they are hypogeal like many Liliaceae and form a radicle below ground the first winter) the second spring after planting. Josef Halda once told me that the seed pots should be dried off during the first summer, but I don't know if this is really necessary. I have grown only wild-collected seeds of Eremurus, and the germination percentage is not high. The rhizomes take about 5 years to reach flowering size. Hi Jane: Sowings of Calochortus tolmei and amoenus have germinated poorly, one of greenii looks OK, one not. All the rest are growing. First sowings were made in late 1997 early '98, have yet to see a bud. The Ratko list should be here soon, there will be plenty of opportunity to do it again. I did notice that repotting can set them back a few weeks, C. catalinae was always first in growth until repotting this past summer. Eremurus were brought indoors and put under a bench where it can go to just above freezing during the winter. One pot had a small Monocot seedling in it and was put on a NE (coolish) bench, for now. I always keep seed pots at least three years. The past ten days have seen flushes of Crocus germinating from sowings made last Fall/Winter.One sowing of Morea villosa has germinated well, one poorly, one not at all. Recalling past discussions on Cyrtanthus, had 80-90% germination on 12 species received early last winter from Silverhill, sown the easy way. Later arrivals have not fared as well. The Massonia depressa are 17" (43cm) across, have rooted into the plunge, and should be in profuse sticky sweet bloom shortly. Lachenalia viridflora is in bloom, unicolor in a few days. Looks like there will be an excellent display of Lapeirousia oreogena this year and perhaps some of the Sparaxis grandiflora subspecies. Best regards, Mark Mazer Intarsia Ltd. Gaylordsville, CT 06755-0142 www.therapyshapes.com USDA Zone 5 Giant Schnauzer Rescue From ???@??? Sun Dec 01 10:35:13 2002 Message-Id: From: Jennifer Hildebrand Subject: Littonia modesta Date: Sun, 1 Dec 2002 09:51:43 -0800 (PST) Hi, I received some seeds of Littonia modesta in the last BX (thanks, Cathy!) and I'm hoping someone might have tips for starting them. The mix I tried was apparently too damp; after just a few days, they began to show a little mold. I've cleaned them off and I don't think they're much worse for the wear, but what should I do with them now? Thanks! Jennifer From ???@??? Sun Dec 01 11:03:21 2002 Message-Id: From: Mary Sue Ittner Subject: Pasithea Date: Sun, 01 Dec 2002 10:23:06 -0800 Dear All, My original seed came from Jim Forrest in New Zealand who I suspect got his seed from Flores & Watson. My comment about thinking it might need some water during dormancy just came from my observation that the ones I planted in a summer dry raised bed never came back. I have since given my dormant pots occasional summer water and have had good luck. Mine stay outside all the time so get heavy winter rain and occasional freezing temperatures. I move them to the shade for summer. I guess I am going to need to try planting one out again and see what happens. Mine bloom in May and June which once again is later than in the UK. This year I repotted into a larger pot and looked at it carefully and it reminded me of some of those Australian geophytes with their amazingly strange underground storage organs. From memory I'm not sure I can describe it, but if Peter calls it a rhizome maybe it also has tuberous roots while in growth. Mary Sue From ???@??? Sun Dec 01 11:03:21 2002 Message-Id: From: Mary Sue Ittner Subject: Difficult Seeds--PBS TOW Date: Sun, 01 Dec 2002 10:26:57 -0800 Reading Mark's message and Georgie/Diana's message reminds me of how our own microclimates may affect our success with seeds. Calochortus amoenus is one of my successes from seed. Even last year I didn't lose that species. Calochortus tolmiei is more problematic for me. It is one of my favorite Calochortus and grows locally. Mine often dwindle. Some years I have no luck with it, but seed last year didn't germinate until February and March so didn't go down in the wet. I have my fingers crossed they will return. If you are interested in Calochortus and are not a member Mark you should join the Mariposa Society. As Georgie says their seed policy is extremely generous so you can afford to experiment and there is no better place to learn about each species. Mark also was successful with Lapeirousia oreogena which I can't get to come up. No one has responded to the question of growing Crocus from seed. I too have had germination sometimes the following year or 4 or 5 months after sowing. Any help from the experts? Or is this to be expected. Mary Sue From ???@??? Sun Dec 01 19:54:46 2002 Message-Id: From: Jane McGary Subject: Difficult Seeds--PBS TOW Date: Sun, 01 Dec 2002 11:49:40 -0800 Mary Sue asked, >No one has responded to the question of growing Crocus from seed. I too >have had germination sometimes the following year or 4 or 5 months after >sowing. Any help from the experts? Or is this to be expected. I am not an expert but have grown about 60 species from seed, so will respond. Crocus germination patterns are as varied as crocuses are. Remember that some bloom in fall, and they grow in every sort of habitat from bare desert to alpine bogs, and in climates ranging from frost-free to severely continental. Seed planted before January and left outdoors but covered typically germinates around March here. Seed planted later may germinate in late spring, in which case it grows through the summer. Some species typically germinate the second year no matter when you plant them. It is advisable to keep the seedlings in their seed pots (supplying weak fertilizer while in growth, and not drying them off severely while dormant) for two years because the corms are so small. I also think all species should be protected from severe freezing while in growth as seedlings, even species like C. vernus that are extremely cold-hardy. I suspect that failure of seed to germinate is probably the result of rotting (if the seed was good to start with -- it can be hollow when you get it), so a very well drained medium is useful. Also, some of the wet-growing species may be intolerant of the seed becoming dried out; I suppose that is why I have not been able to germinate C. pelistericus on the two occasions I have obtained seed from exchanges. However, C. scharojanii (wild-collected) has germinated here, though it has not yet flowered for me. Jane McGary Northwest Oregon From ???@??? Sun Dec 01 15:33:57 2002 Message-Id: From: John Lonsdale Subject: Difficult Seeds--PBS TOW - Crocus seed Date: Sun, 01 Dec 2002 16:29:45 -0500 > > No one has responded to the question of growing Crocus from seed. I too > have had germination sometimes the following year or 4 or 5 months after > sowing. Any help from the experts? Or is this to be expected. > > Mary Sue Mary Sue et al., Crocus are relatively straight-forward from seed, generally germinating the late fall-early spring after sowing. Pretty much all of my seed of fall-flowering crocus is now up, barring a few stragglers. The spring flowerers will be germinating between now and February/March. Because of this 'winter' germination pattern I like to keep my crocus seed pots from freezing through - once germinated (and still below the top-dressing) the seedlings are very vulnerable and can be killed if they freeze when wet. Mine are kept in a greenhouse which gets to 32F but not much below. As soon as they germinate they come into the big greenhouse which is kept a little warmer but has strong forced ventilation. They do need a certain pattern to germinate - warm then cold - but if they miss that they will wait a year. Last fall was very warm until December and very few germinated, they are all up this year. Cyclamen did exactly the same. If it hasn't germinated after two winters then you can be pretty sure it was no good. I do find a proportion of crocus seed that looks the part just doesn't germinate - frequently rots the summer after sowing. No idea why this should be. J Dr John T Lonsdale 407 Edgewood Drive, Exton, Pennsylvania 19341, USA Phone: 610 594 9232 Fax: 801 327 1266 Visit "Edgewood" - The Lonsdale Garden at http://www.johnlonsdale.net Zone 6b From ???@??? Sun Dec 01 15:33:57 2002 Message-Id: From: "Alberto Castillo" Subject: Difficult Seed- PBS TOW Date: Sun, 01 Dec 2002 23:27:39 +0000 Dear all: Crocus seed do exactly as John has explained. It is cold that triggers germination, which is fairly uniform is seed is good. Fall blooming species germinate earlier in my experience. Seed that rots in summer contains a dead embryo. Regards Alberto From ???@??? Sun Dec 01 19:54:46 2002 Message-Id: From: "Alberto Castillo" Subject: Littonia modesta out of topic Date: Sun, 01 Dec 2002 23:35:54 +0000 Dear Jennifer: You are sowing at the wrong time of the year. Littonia seed must be sown in Spring and given warmth until germination takes place (which is usually very good). A mix for it should be very well drained. Small very poisonous pea size tubers will have formed by the time the plants go dormant in Fall. Store them dry for the winter under frost free conditions to restart in Spring in bigger pots. The scarlet pulp that covers the actual seed must be removed before sowing (easy in tepid water). Regards Alberto From ???@??? Sun Dec 01 19:54:46 2002 Message-Id: From: John Lonsdale Subject: Difficult Seed- PBS TOW Date: Sun, 01 Dec 2002 20:34:12 -0500 Alberto, What would cause a dead crocus embryo ? Is it a defect during seed production or some subsequent event that has caused the embryo to die. Is it in my hand s or the hands of the Maker ? J. Dr John T Lonsdale 407 Edgewood Drive, Exton, Pennsylvania 19341, USA Phone: 610 594 9232 Fax: 801 327 1266 Visit "Edgewood" - The Lonsdale Garden at http://www.johnlonsdale.net Zone 6b From ???@??? Sun Dec 01 20:08:26 2002 Message-Id: From: "Cathy Craig" Subject: Littonia modesta out of topic Date: Sun, 1 Dec 2002 20:08:28 -0800 Hi Jennifer, You can count on the fact that everyone on the robin knows more about the technicality of germinating seeds than I do. However, let me just do a little supposition here to satisfy my need for logic. My L. m. bloomed this summer, produced the seed pods (very slow to ripen), pods broke open, I collected the seed and sent it to the BX and Dell sent them out. So here we are in the fall. In nature presumably the seeds would have fallen to the ground near the base of the plant. Then the winter rains would have gradually washed off the seed coating (or it would have just rotted off over the winter). Thereafter, in spring, the seed would normally germinate. I kept a couple of the L.m. seeds and potted up the mother bulb (wait till you see the photo of this!) into a larger pot with new soil (plus some pumace and a little sponge rok) and just poked the seeds into the same pot about an inch down. This worked last year and I didn't lose any sleep fretting over whether to plant them now, how to store them until the spring, or what to do about the seed coat. Things are so hectic around here that if it can't be done expeditiously, it doesn't get done at all. Cathy Craig President PBS Maritime zone 9b > From ???@??? Sun Dec 01 22:59:15 2002 Message-Id: From: Mary Sue Ittner Subject: Pacific Microclimates Date: Sun, 01 Dec 2002 21:04:08 -0800 Dear Diana, Georgie, and Jane, I find microclimate a really interesting topic and I hope others will respond to it. Georgie described my climate pretty well, except during summer we are often above the fog. Just a couple of miles away from me rainfall is significantly less. As Georgie says the clouds just sit over our house dumping rain when it rains so we get a lot more. In summer temperatures are sometimes 10-20 degrees F. warmer than five minutes away at the ocean. Near the ocean in summer there is more wind or more fog. Often it is one or the other. Although you think of it being warmer in winter close to the ocean sometimes the cold settles in low places nearer the ocean and because I am in the forest the trees provide some protection. So I have had the experience where a plant I have grown that I have shared with a friend living closer to the ocean has suffered frost damage when its sibling in my garden has not. So if you looked up information by zipcode or if Gualala were on that nifty site Mark shared with us you still wouldn't get the whole picture. Mary Sue From ???@??? Mon Dec 02 07:16:21 2002 Message-Id: From: IntarsiaCo@aol.com Subject: Difficult Seeds--PBS TOW Date: Mon, 2 Dec 2002 07:19:16 EST In a message dated 12/1/2002 1:39:29 PM Eastern Standard Time, msittner@mcn.org writes: >Mark also was successful with Lapeirousia oreogena which I can't get to come up. Hi Mary Sue: None of the Lapeirousia have been strong germinators, somewhere between 5 and 25% seems typical. I am growing L. fabricii, pyramidalis, tenuis, jacquinii, plicata, sandersonii, silenoides in addition to L. oreogena. L. grandiflora, divaricata and another sowing of plicata have not germinated yet. Best regards, Mark Mazer Intarsia Ltd. Gaylordsville, CT 06755-0142 www.therapyshapes.com USDA Zone 5 Giant Schnauzer Rescue From ???@??? Mon Dec 02 07:16:21 2002 Message-Id: From: "Patricia Brooks" Subject: small bulbs for sale Date: Mon, 2 Dec 2002 08:46:49 -0500 I also would like to buy a smaller bulb for the reason that I could buy more then one. I may be able to buy two different items. The people who live on a fixed income would appreciate that. Pat From ???@??? Mon Dec 02 07:16:21 2002 Message-Id: From: "Alberto Castillo" Subject: Ornithogalum--PBS TOW Date: Mon, 02 Dec 2002 07:54:42 -0800 Ornithogalum is a genus of plants with bulbs, leafless stem, leaves linear to lanceolate to oblanceolate, inflorescence a raceme, ovary superior, six free tepals, six stamens, fruit a capsule, seeds black, flat . It belongs into the family Hyacinthaceae. This genus has very many species but is practically unknown in cultivation except for the yellow and orange species of group A. The group C in particular has a number of striking species , small compact plants with rather large flowers, excellent for pot cultivation. The flowers of all have a silky texture that is very attractive. From the cultivation point there are three distinct groups A)The autumn-winter-spring growers from S. W. South Africa. They are mostly Spring bloomers.They demand intense sunlight and rather frost free conditions. Dry summer dormant. Tender B) The spring-summer-autumn growers from hot subtropical to tropical Africa, mostly late Spring/summer bloomers. Most demand intense sunlight and frost free to hot conditions. Dry winter dormant. Tender C) The autumn-winter-spring growers from the countries around the Mediterranean Sea, mostly Spring bloomers. They demand sunlight and cool growing conditions and are hardy to very hardy. Note from Mary Sue: Alberto has provided us with the introduction to the topic of the week. Several of you wanted to talk about this genus and I hope those of you who suggested it will ask your questions and share your experiences. Who grows Ornithogalum and which species? Group A? Group B? Group C? Do you grow them in the ground or containers? Do they come back (or come up every year?) Remember to include where you live. When this topic was nominated, one person wrote: Ornithogalum that persist in the garden and what conditions they like. From ???@??? Mon Dec 02 16:56:08 2002 Message-Id: From: Jane McGary Subject: Ornithogalum--PBS TOW Date: Mon, 02 Dec 2002 10:15:06 -0800 I grow only the group of Ornithogalum species described as follows in Alberto Castillo's introduction: >C) The autumn-winter-spring growers from the countries around the >Mediterranean Sea, mostly Spring bloomers. They demand sunlight and cool >growing conditions and are hardy to very hardy. I've tried a few of the South African species outdoors but they did not survive the winters here, where typical lows are around 15 F/minus 10 C, with much lower temperatures about every four years. Only O. dubium is ornamental enough to merit greenhouse space, and bulbs I have purchased have not been healthy (I believe it is susceptible to virus), so I don't have it now. The species I am growing in the garden and/or bulb frame are: Oo. balansae (syn. oligophyllum), chionophilum, fimbriatum, lanceolatum, longibracteatum (S. African), narbonense, nutans (received as O. arcuatum), orthophyllum, platyphyllum, ponticum, pyrenaicum, reverchonii, sintenisii, sphaerocarpum, umbellatum, and an unidentified sp. from Thessaly. Some of these names may represent overlapping entities, since I grew a lot of them from seed purchased from Czech collectors, who often use Russian floras that don't coincide entirely with western European lists. All these species can withstand at least a few degrees of frost, and some (e.g., nutans, orthophyllum, ponticum, pyrenaicum, umbellatum) are undoubtedly hardy to at least zero F/minus 18 C. O. umbellatum, commonly called "Star of Bethlehem," is naturalized in parts of the USA. The most interesting to me are those that flower on very short stems, such as O. balansae and O. fimbriatum. These are slow to increase and would be appropriate for a mild-climate rock garden. O. orthophyllum is like a short-stemmed version of O. umbellatum. O. reverchonii is often regarded as the gem of the genus (perhaps because it is rare in the wild?), but its foliage is not too attractive (it is a crevice plant in nature and hangs down). O. nutans has pendent flowers with gray-green stripes on the outside, subtly attractive. The most ornamental for the border are O. narbonense and the similar but less amenable O. ponticum, which are rather tall with bright white flowers in a long spike. The green O. pyrenaicum is very easily grown and appealing as a curiosity. O. umbellatum is most useful for naturalizing in rough grass. In summary, the Eurasian ornithogalums, all white or green flowered, fall into three general groups in terms of form: short ones, tall ones with broad racemes, and tall ones with long, slender racemes. They are easily grown from seed, which is usually set by garden plants though not always in abundance. Some increase rapidly by offsets, and others don't. They do not seem to be attacked by any pests, including slugs and rodents, so they are good "insurance" if the showier bulbs get eaten. The tall ones tend to flower in late spring or early summer (O. ponticum is the last to bloom) and the short ones in late winter. Jane McGary Northwest Oregon, USA From ???@??? Mon Dec 02 13:23:34 2002 Message-Id: From: IntarsiaCo@aol.com Subject: Ornithogalum--PBS TOW Date: Mon, 2 Dec 2002 15:40:13 EST Hi: This topic dovetails quite nicely with a current concern of mine, Ornithogalum mosaic virus and Lachenalia. I was wondering how common this virus is, and if it infects other Ornithogalum besides Ornithogalum thyrsoides? Where else does it occur besides South Africa and California? I believe Mary Sue lost a Lachenalia aloides selection and John Bryan mentioned it as a liability regarding the selection of bulbs for a public planting in South California. Veld and Flora recently noted the difficulty of maintaing clean Lachenalia breeding stocks in SA. Regards, Mark Mazer Intarsia Ltd. Gaylordsville, CT 06755-0142 www.therapyshapes.com USDA Zone 5 Giant Schnauzer Rescue From ???@??? Mon Dec 02 13:35:17 2002 Message-Id: From: Mary Sue Ittner Subject: Growing from Seed--PBS TOW Date: Mon, 02 Dec 2002 13:22:51 -0800 Dear All, Cathy, Littonia modesta is an Eastern Cape species which means that it grows where there is very little winter rainfall and is dormant in winter. In Southern California there often isn't much winter rainfall so it would might work for you to put the seeds in the pot with the mother bulb and just leave it. I keep the two or three of these summer growers I have dry in my greenhouse during winter and that seems to work. Rachel told me she can grow Gloriosa outside in Cape Town, but my only attempt to do that was never seen again. I tried it on my deck this year and it wasn't happy there either so greenhouse seems to suit it best. Wet and cold might make the seeds rot. On the other hand I have the following story to tell about how starting at the wrong time worked. I got some seed of Eucomis from Rhoda when I was in South Africa. She suggested I start half of it right away and half of it at the correct time in the spring. When I questioned why, she said the seed was old and might not still be viable in spring. If it was started in fall I should try to keep it growing through the summer and would be ahead of the game in size of the bulb. I followed her advice and started one batch in October and one in late February. The ones I started in October came up in March and grew when they normally would be growing. The ones in February never germinated. Now I kept that seed pot damp, but the seed did not come up until it normally would have. It does seem logical if seed falls on the ground in nature and waits for the precise moment to germinate that we should be able to do that too. The trouble is that what that seed experiences in its native habitat may be very different than what we are providing it. On the other hand people keep telling us about seeds of winter growing species that need a warm dry period before germinating and perhaps we should be planting those right away and instead of waiting until fall. Harold Koopowitz told us to plant Muscari seeds when ripe and then leave them dry all summer. That of course works if ripe seeds are available. I don't know if this would also be a good idea for those that arrive from seed exchanges in late winter-early spring. While looking for something else, I found that Rachel wrote that Albuca seeds were very short lived so that may be part of Mark's problem with them. The ones Tom gave to one of our earlier BX are now up for me. And Mark I have grown Moraea villosa from seed from quite a few sources and it germinates quite easily under my system of warm days provided by my greenhouse and cool nights. As for Laperiousa there must be a trick if Mark also has low germination. Alberto suggested I start a fire in the greenhouse (controlled of course) and shut all the vents to fill it with smoke. I probably should have tried that but we are having warm days and my vents are open and difficult to close manually. People have burn piles here in the fall which adds to the air pollution greatly and I haven't gotten the courage to bring my ungerminated pots to one of those and place them where the smoke would hit them for a day or two. One of these days I will. So far this year L. arnicola, fabricii, and pyramidalis pyramidalis are coming up with more than one or two (my usual is 0-2 seeds per pot.) The one exception that I have concluded has to be something else because it is growing so well is Laperiousia corymbosa (from Silverhill Seeds.) It germinated well and the second year when I dumped out the pot I counted 175 corms from the one packet. Could be kind of scary. I am hoping whatever it is will bloom this year. The leaves look big enough. Mary Sue From ???@??? Mon Dec 02 13:23:35 2002 Message-Id: From: Harold Koopowitz Subject: Ornithogalum--PBS TOW Date: Mon, 02 Dec 2002 13:54:29 -0800 Some orns are more susceptible than others, O. dubium is quite susceptible others like O. conicum seem less. Harold Harold Koopowitz Ecology and Evolutionary Biology University of California, IRVINE, CA 92697 USA Tel: 949-824-8511 From ???@??? Mon Dec 02 16:56:08 2002 Message-Id: From: "Alberto Castillo" Subject: Ornithogalum PBS TOW Date: Tue, 03 Dec 2002 00:42:48 +0000 Dear Jane et al: n the group of tender winter growing Cape Ornithogalums besides dubium you have O. maculatum that is very attractive. A number of hybrids of this group was raised years ago in California in several yellows, cream, buff, apricot, several oranges, salmons, etc. They were stunning. Ornithogalum dubium specially should be grown in every bulb collection as an indicator plant since (like Lachenalias)it is EXTREMELY susceptible to viruses and show signs very soon. Regards Alberto From ???@??? Mon Dec 02 20:44:44 2002 Message-Id: From: Jennifer Hildebrand Subject: peach Clivia miniata Date: Mon, 2 Dec 2002 20:44:05 -0800 (PST) Hi all, Anyone interested in another group order for peach C. miniata? I just read this advertisement on the clivia-enthusiast group: Hallo, this year I pollinated all my best yellow miniatas with recessivepeach miniatas, for those of you who do not know, the recessive peachmutation or Chubb's Peach is dominant over group 1 yellow, although a smallpercentage of yellows can be expected due to selfpolination. The idea was to supply these seed to a client but the deal fell through and I was forced toplant all the seed, some 8000 seedlings. These seedlings are now at the 1-2 leaf stage, and because I do not have thespace to race all of them I have to sell as many as possible. This is your chance to buy some high quality peach seedlings for yourChristmas stocking. I will sell the seedlings in batches of 10 at the give away price of R500per batch, overseas buyers will require a phyto at R50 per order, and pleasefind out if you will require an import permit or not. Postage will depend on the quantity and method of shipping. Please order with me direct. Jennifer From ???@??? Tue Dec 03 07:23:26 2002 Message-Id: From: Dell Sherk Subject: Pacific BX 18 Date: Tue, 03 Dec 2002 06:40:18 -0400 Dear All, The items listed below have been donated by PBS members for sharing. If you are interested in obtaining some of them, please email me PRIVATELY at . Include "BX 18" in the subject line. Specify the NUMBERS of the items which you would like; do not specify quantities. Availability is based on a first come, first served system. When you receive your seeds/bulbs you will find included with them a statement of how much money (cash or check) you should send the PBS treasurer for you order. Each item costs US$2.00 to cover first-class postage and packing. It is a good idea to include you snail mail address too, in case I don't already have it. Some of you are members of the PBS discussion forum but not members of the Pacific Bulb Society. THIS BX OFFERING IS AVAILABLE ONLY TO MEMBERS OF THE PBS. Consider joining the PBS so that you can take advantage of future offers such as this. Or contact me at dells@voicenet.com If you would like to donate seeds or bulbs/corms to the PBS, please send clean, clearly labeled material to: Dell Sherk, PO Box 224, Holicong, PA, 18928, USA. Donors will receive credit on the BX for the cost of postage for their donations. OFFERINGS: Pacific BX 18: (W = Winter-growing; S = Summer-growing) SEED: From Mark Wilcox: 1. Belamcanda chinensis ('blackberry lily') 'Hello Yellow' (S), a dwarf form, growing about 1 foot high, 18 inches when in flower. They're rhizomotous like Iris germanica, but are a short-lived perennial. Expect 3 to 4 years. They're easy to restart from seed stored in the fridge. They tend to succumb to some kind of bacteria around the rhizomes here, which I can stave off with chemicals. It might be boytritus (sp.?); I'm not sure. 2. xPardancanda norrisii (S) gets about 2.5 feet high, around 3 feet in flower. Looks identical to B. chinensis in foliage, but the flowers will be of all different colors. To some extent, the shape of the bloom is variable as well. From Roy Sachs: 3. Alstroemeria hybrids (S?) (see end of this page for Roy's commentary) From Charles Hardman: 4. Romulea hartungii (W), blue 5. Romulea atrandra var esterhuyziae (W) 6. Romulea hirta (W), yellow 7. Romulea multisculata (W) 8. Romulea tortuosa subsp depauparata (W), yellow and brown 9. Romulea sp. (W) pale yellow 10 Romulea sp. (W) yellow 11. Romulea sp. (W) 12. Romulea tortuosa var tortuosa (W), yellow 13. Romulea sp. (W) BULBS: From Liz Waterman: 14. Ledebouria socialis (evergreen?) Thank you, Mark, Roy, Charles, and Liz !! Best wishes, Dell --Dell Sherk, Director, Pacific BX In 1990 I purchased 3000 seed from Fred Meyer, a breeder of alstroemeria located in coastal southern California, and was able to obtain 60+ seed bearing plants from Leonard Carrier, another nearby alstroemeria breeder. I know nothing about the origin of their plants, nor even the names of the species (they could have concentrated on hybrids already in the trade) that contributed to their breeding programs. Both men are deceased and the whereabouts of their notebooks is not known to me. From this beginning my goal was to select for vigor in the field, full sun and partial shade, and unheated, summer-shaded greenhouse in a relatively hot, dry summer climate (temps in excess of 40 C are common for long stretches in the Sacramento valley) About 1500 seedlings from Meyer's seed were planted in the field and greenhouse; seed from the most vigorous of these plants, about 300, constitute the largest segment of the plants growing in Davis and also at more coastal location (along the Russian river, 12 km inland from the Pacific where average max temp in the summer is 26 C). None of Leonard Carrier's plants (some with beautiful florets) survived more than 3 years in a Davis greenhouse (unheated), but seed were collected for at least 2 years and seedlings of these collections survived in the field and greenhouse, although none had the distinctive colors of the parents. They are now mixed with the Meyer plants. So the seed bearing populations that I have in Davis and along the Russian river are some mix of these germ plasms. They are open-pollinated (self- and cross-fertile; to the extent that I have done selfing and crossing I can say this). The largest portion of the seed come from the Russian River plants because pollenizer (bee/hummingbird) activity is greatest at this location. There are some deep purple/magenta and raspberry red colors (as well as some with less pigmentation that I call "whitish") in a few seedlings but the majority produce florets in the light pink to dark lavender range, not nearly as attractive to afficionados as seen in the Dutch catalogs....but they may have better vigor in the garden. Paul Tyerman and Mary Wise of the PBS have had success raising seedlings from this seed source. Roy From ???@??? Tue Dec 03 07:23:25 2002 Message-Id: From: Lauw de Jager Subject: Ornithogalum--PBS TOW Date: Tue, 03 Dec 2002 11:40:22 +0100 Dear frends, I grow here the following species in the open ground: O umbellatum: In spite of the fact it has been banished from the catalog and the garden, it persists still as a tenacious weed. O narbonense. Very adapted to conditons here. Multiplies well from seed O arabicum: superb decorative plant ( large raceme of pure white flowers with a remarkable black ovary). Multiplies rapidly by offsets. moderately hardy(O orthophylum, O pyramidalis on trial) South african species: O dubium mixed hybrids, mostly sterile, very often virus infected, not hardy O longibracteatum: grows anywhere in any condition; but of very little decorative interest O thyrsoides. Multiplies well from seed, very adapted to our area. Here in Europe often on offer in the wrongseaon (spring) which subsequently gives only shotterm satification and a bad reputation. O saundersiae: Not very happy in our medit climate; tends to rot during our humid winters and need watering durng the winter. Will be abandoned from our catalog Kind regards -- Lauw de Jager BULB'ARGENCE, 30300 Fourques, France Région: Provence/Camargue, (Climat zone 9a Mediterranean) Site: http://www.bulbargence.com/ "GUIDE POUR BULBES MÉDITERRANÉENS": 116 pages, 400 photos, prix 10 E CATALOGUE D'HIVER (WINTERCATALOG) sera disponible en janvier; vous pouvez commander par le site maintenant pour un envoi à partir de maintenant jusqu'au fin mars. (En fleur actuellement à l'extérieure: Cyclamen pseudibericum, Dahlia imperialis, Gladiolus dalenii, Crocus, Oxalis bowiea, versicolor, masoniorum, Nerine undulata, bowdenii'Pink Triumph', Narcissus tazetta 'Paperwhite', Chinese sacred lily, Double, Moraea polystachya) - From ???@??? Tue Dec 03 08:48:49 2002 Message-Id: <4.2.2.20021203074611.00bf0aa0@mail.mcn.org> From: Mary Sue Ittner Subject: Pacific BX 18 Date: Tue, 03 Dec 2002 07:59:02 -0800 Dear All, I think the Romulea seed from Charles Hardman gives everyone the opportunity to practice how to key out plants. With the excellent online article I referenced recently anyone who orders it can have a resource to help. I bought some Romulea corms from Charles at the IBS auction and the corms were not always the correct shape for the species on the tag. So I have made notes for what the corm looks like and now await their bloom and will try to figure out what they really are. Many Romuleas are wonderful so I wouldn't be put off on getting the seed. I call mine Romulea sp. (id. as Romulea atrandra from Hardman) and then I start looking at the description of that one first and if it doesn't fit start at the beginning. There are a lot of yellow Romuleas so those will give a lot of interesting practice. Mary Sue From ???@??? Tue Dec 03 08:48:49 2002 Message-Id: <3DECD58D.DCA71EB3@earthlink.net> From: Elizabeth Waterman Subject: Pacific BX 18 Ledebouria socialis Date: Tue, 03 Dec 2002 08:02:21 -0800 The Ledebouria socialis have been evergreen in the greenhouse (used to be a hothouse), but loose most to all of their leaves outdoors in zone 9. Consider them tender. They have survived a light frost but haven't been subjected to anything worse. They have been planted with about 3/4 to 7/8 of the bulb above ground. Don't know how important that is. Liz From ???@??? Tue Dec 03 22:09:11 2002 Message-Id: From: Patricia Bender Subject: peach Clivia miniata Date: Tue, 3 Dec 2002 19:22:33 -0800 On Monday, December 2, 2002, at 08:44 PM, Jennifer Hildebrand wrote: > Hi all, > > Anyone interested in another group order for peach C. miniata? I just > read this advertisement on the clivia-enthusiast group: I see that the seller wants 500 Rand for ten plants. That is about 54.00, plus the cost of a permit (5.40), about 60.00 plus shipping and handling. that is a very good price. I hope you can get an order together, and thanks for offering. Pat Bender From ???@??? Wed Dec 04 06:56:19 2002 Message-Id: From: Lauw de Jager Subject: Growing from Seed--PBS TOW Date: Wed, 04 Dec 2002 09:26:50 +0100 Mary Sue Ittner a *crit : > > It does seem logical if seed falls on the ground in nature and waits for > the precise moment to germinate ....seeds of winter growing > species that need a warm dry period before germinating and perhaps we > should be planting those right away and instead of waiting until fall. > Harold Koopowitz told us to plant Muscari seeds when ripe and then leave > them dry all summer. Mary Sue et al, Just to confirm these statements. I got the best results with sowing seeds immediately when ripe (or even almost ripe). I had some very good expirenence with the following species: Galanthus elwesii and many Cyclamen species. Just look under the Cyclamen leaves to see the numerous seedlings developing. Once I sown green seeds (capsules) of Brunsvigia Josephinaea which gave 100% germination -- Lauw de Jager BULB'ARGENCE, 30300 Fourques, France Région: Provence/Camargue, (Climat zone 9a Mediterranean) Site: http://www.bulbargence.com/ "GUIDE POUR BULBES MÉDITERRANÉENS": 116 pages, 400 photos, prix 10 E CATALOGUE D'HIVER (WINTERCATALOG) sera disponible en janvier; vous pouvez commander par le site maintenant pour un envoi à partir de maintenant jusqu'au fin mars. (En fleur actuellement à l'extérieure: Cyclamen pseudibericum, Dahlia imperialis, Gladiolus dalenii, Crocus, Oxalis bowiea, versicolor, masoniorum, Nerine undulata, bowdenii'Pink Triumph', Narcissus tazetta 'Paperwhite', Chinese sacred lily, Double, Moraea polystachya, Lachenalia bulbifera) - From ???@??? Wed Dec 04 08:21:32 2002 Message-Id: From: TGlavich@aol.com Subject: Ornithogalum Questions Date: Wed, 04 Dec 2002 10:41:45 -0500 I grow a mix of Mediterranean and South African species, with my main interest being in the smaller South African species. There has been a wealth of small unidentified or unnames species available in the past year, many with interesting leaves, some wiry, some twisting, some doing both most have very small (3/8 inch or so)leaves. I've been collecting these as I can, and the genus will clearly need amplification soon. They are all winter growers, and at least in Southern California are easy growers in pots, with some shade and protection from over watering in the summer. All the flowers are white, some with faint green striping. The questions: Does anyone know of a reference that describes the South African Hyacinthaceae, particularly the breakdown between Ornithogalum and Albuca. The line between these two genera does not seem very clear to me. The same goes with Urginea, but to a lesser extent. The best reference I know is "Ornithogalum: a revision of the southern African species" by A. A. Obermeyer in Bothalia V 12, #3. Has anyone crossed Albuca with Ornithogalum, or Urginea with Ornithogalum? Do any of the colored Ornithogalums cross out to either Albuca or Urginea? Has anyone tried crossing in any of the more distant relatives such as Lachenalia or Ledebouria? Thanks Tom From ???@??? Thu Dec 05 09:17:41 2002 Message-Id: From: Lauw de Jager Subject: Difficult Seeds--PBS TOW Date: Thu, 05 Dec 2002 18:09:01 +0100 Billthebulbbaron@aol.com a *crit : to buy only flowering-size bulbs, or if they are also interested in smaller > bulbs at a lower price. >> > > > YES!!! For the reasons Alberto mentioned and also since one can buy several > bulbs for the price of one there is more chance of at least one doing well, > or just the opportunity to perhaps see some variation in color or whatever. > > I have sold countless thousands of mixed Amaryllis belladonna hybrid 3 year > old seedlings at the Farmers' Markets I do to ordinary gardeners to whom I > explain that they will have to wait at least a couple years for significant > bloom but this way they can get alot more for their money and I can produce > the bulbs incredibly cheaply as they are simply dug en masse from > direct-seeded beds and sold as is. > Der Bill and all, This is a good idea.! A have a few species which I have been sowing every year in quantity ad are now becoming avaiable in thousands. Examples are Amaryllis belladonna, Scilla peruviana, Tulbaghia violacea, Narcissus tazetta, Allium tuberosum, Romulea, Sparaxis and Tritelea species. I will create a section in the website "special offer fo naturalisation wiuth smaller bulbs" They will be much cheaper and les expences in postage. Thanks for the idea Lauw de Jager BULB'ARGENCE, 30300 Fourques, France Région: Provence/Camargue, (Climat zone 9a Mediterranean) Site: http://www.bulbargence.com/ "GUIDE POUR BULBES MÉDITERRANÉENS": 116 pages, 400 photos, prix 10 E CATALOGUE D'HIVER (WINTERCATALOG) sera disponible en janvier; vous pouvez commander par le site maintenant pour un envoi à partir de maintenant jusqu'au fin mars. (En fleur actuellement à l'extérieure: Cyclamen pseudibericum, Dahlia imperialis, Gladiolus dalenii, Crocus, Oxalis bowiea, versicolor, masoniorum, Nerine undulata, bowdeniii'Pink Triumph', Narcissus tazetta 'Paperwhite', Moraea polystachya) - From ???@??? Thu Dec 05 18:08:57 2002 Message-Id: From: Mary Sue Ittner Subject: Site of the IBSA Symposium Date: Thu, 05 Dec 2002 17:04:55 -0800 Dear All, My husband found the following URL. The note on the IBSA brochure for their bulb & corm symposium in August 2003 says the accommodation at Goudini Spa will be either in the Rondavels or the Badsberg Flats. http://www.conven.co.za/GoudiniSpa/Goudini.htm From ???@??? Thu Dec 05 18:49:42 2002 Message-Id: From: Mary Sue Ittner Subject: Ornithogalum--PBS TOW Date: Thu, 05 Dec 2002 18:08:19 -0800 Dear All, Thank you Jane for your interesting discussion of the Ornithogalums you grow. Are the non South African ones also susceptible to virus? I have grown a number of Ornithogalums from seed and sometimes have a hard time convincing them to break dormancy the second year. Do those of you who grow these from seed keep them dry during the first dormancy or water them monthly? Ornithogalum dubium (none of mine have looked virused) also chooses to stay underground some years. Paul Tyerman reported the same problem with his. They are sold so cheaply by the Nurseryman's Exchange one is tempted to treat them like annuals and buy new ones each year but I don't know if this would be risky if they are prone to virus. I tossed all my Ornithogalum thyrsoides. I had planted them in a raised bed and they seemed to be splitting into smaller bulbs and not flowering well and the leaves looked questionable as well. I never fertilized and that may have been part of the problem. In Darling I saw this species in very wet sand and perhaps it needed more water too as it is a late bloomer after our rains have slowed down and I didn't always give it supplemental water. Alberto, how soon can you tell if you have virused plants? Please describe how they look. I assumed mine were as they were in that bed with the Lachenalias that got virused after a number of years of being quite wonderful. Ornithogalum umbellatum brings to mind that what some people are delighted with (read the word naturalized), others think of as a pest (weed). My father-in-law despaired of getting rid of it in his San Francisco sandy garden and my husband made it clear I was never to plant it, but I remember a friend being thrilled in Midland Texas when it came back each year. O arabicum I agree with Lauw is a very handsome plant. I have tried it two or three times in my gardens (Stockton and Gualala) and have never gotten it to last longer than a year or two at the most. I'm not sure why this is. I hope someone will be able to answer Tom's questions. When seeing them in the wild in South Africa we too saw a similarity between Albucas and Ornithogalums. And I agree some of them had wonderful curling leaves. We saw O. maculatum often in South Africa, usually in the rocks. It is very tiny in habitat and most of the time it was closed when we saw it as we just happened to see it on overcast and rainy days. It was attractive closed however, but so small that none of our pictures captured its charm. I have tried it a couple of times from seed, but never had any luck. Mary Sue From ???@??? Fri Dec 06 07:44:21 2002 Message-Id: From: "Julian Slade" Subject: Ornithogalum Date: Fri, 6 Dec 2002 17:20:52 +1030 Dear all There is a lot of current controversy around the limits of the genus Ornithogalum (also for Drimia and Scilla) following DNA sequence analysis by M. Pfosser & F. Speta published in Annals of the Missouri Botanical Garden, 86: 852-875 (1999). The sequence data indicate that Ornithogalum and Albuca are mixed up with each other; a situation is similar for the Drimia/Urginea group as well as for Scilla and relatives. For this note, I'll stick to Ornithogalum. Basically, Pfosser & Speta argue that these genera must be divided into smaller ones for any sense to be made of the DNA results. These smaller genera can generally be distinguished by seed structure, a characteristic previously underestimated. These smaller genera are: Eliokarmos: O. thyrsoides, O. dubium, etc. and relatives; Melomphis: O. arabicum and relatives; Cathissa: O. reverchonii and relatives; Loncomelos: O. pyrenaicum, O. arcuatum, etc. and relatives; Honorius: O. nutans and relatives; Ornithogalum: O. umbellatum and relatives; Zahariadia: O. saundersiae, possibly also O. xanthochlorum; Ornithogalum juncifolium, not allocated a 'new' genus name, also formed a separate group. The green-flowered species of Galtonia were found to be most related to Zahariadia. The only other Galtonia, the white G. candicans, was closer to the following group centered around Albuca: Stellarioides: O. longibracteatum and relatives; Coilonox: O. secundum, O. suaveolens and relatives; Albuca: unchanged A rare species of Ornithogalum, O. etesiogaripense, formed another group; this group would presumably comprise O. unifolium and relatives. There are 2 ways to interpret these results: either smaller genera must be recognised, or part of Ornithogalum must be transferred to Albuca. The latter approach, in my opinion, will result in super-genera each of which do not appear to have defining features. I would welcome any comments from professional botanists who are aware of this research. I hope that this does not confuse you all, but at least you will be warned of some changes in store! Regards Julian Slade From ???@??? Fri Dec 06 08:33:15 2002 Message-Id: From: Harold Koopowitz Subject: Ornithogalum Date: Fri, 06 Dec 2002 08:30:26 -0800 This discussion started of with suggestions of breeding. We found within the old concept of Ornithogalum that it was difficult to make hybrids unless one resorted to embryo rescue. Even within the new Eliokarmos one could not make hybrids between thyrasoides and dubium unless one used embryo rescue. With regards the discussion below, Remember that much of the molecular genetics is only based on one or a few genes (I am not sure of the situation here) and the cladograms displayed are only one of many possibilities. Harold From ???@??? Fri Dec 06 19:08:37 2002 Message-Id: From: Jane McGary Subject: Explaining current taxonomy Date: Fri, 06 Dec 2002 09:53:34 -0800 Harold Koopowitz responded to Julian Slade's posting on recent work on the genus Ornithogalum: >... With regards to [the report summarized by Slade], Remember that much of the molecular >genetics is only based on one or a few genes (I am not sure of the >situation here) and the cladograms displayed are only one of many >possibilities. It would be most valuable for nonspecialists who are strongly interested in plants to gain a better understanding of how taxonomy is currently being done. I would like to encourage specialists (such as Drs. Koopowitz and Meerow) to think about presenting this information in an article accessible to many readers of the "Rock Garden Quarterly" and "Bulbs." My own specialty is editing scholarly prose, and I would be happy to assist in the preparation of such an explanatory article. One of my mottos is "You can explain [almost] anything to [almost] anyone," although in this case it is surprising how many people are engaged in breeding plants and animals without even the kind of basic understanding of genetics one gets from an introductory biology course. Because cladistics is also used in linguistics, I was familiar with it before I encountered it in biology, so I'm not put off by statements like "only one of many possibilities." However, I also know that many readers are NOT comfortable with them and believe they are being "jerked around" by "those botanists" whenever a name change is proposed. Some of those confused by current taxonomic practice are in the horticultural publishing industry, too, so as an editor I am called on to make decisions about synonyms that I am by no means qualified to make -- and that I'm not sure NEED to be made. Authors can respond with surprising rancor to editorial changes regarding plant names. Jane McGary Northwest Oregon From ???@??? Fri Dec 06 19:08:37 2002 Message-Id: From: John Ingram Subject: Ornithagalum TOW Date: Fri, 6 Dec 2002 18:24:00 -0800 (PST) I wish I could get mine to become a pest. My dubium well, one spike a year is about it. This is it's second (or is it third?) year. It really is in the sunniest part and also the driest. Placement was more by space availability than plant requirements. It came from Smith and Hawken as a closeout plant for $5.00 and I couldn't pass it up. I gues I should have. (I really need to control my spending impulses but oh well). The Sandersonii are one leaf if at all. They are from a past BX. I really love the flowers for cut flowers but I have never had them in my garden. Thrysoides has flowered for me and I always rip off the flowers and toss them as they are the biggest aphid magnet in the garden. I have never tried any other spp. but I would like to get the ones I have to do better. They are all in the open ground and I will be moving them all in the next few months into pots at the beach as I do not need my garden plot (especially since I never remember to water it since I have been home John Ingramjjingram@adelphia.net Floralartistry2000@yahoo.comgroups.yahoo.com/group/FloralArtistry PhotoPages www.floralartistry.org From ???@??? Fri Dec 06 20:07:45 2002 Message-Id: From: "Georgie" Subject: Explaining current taxonomy Date: Fri, 6 Dec 2002 19:55:42 -0800 I want to actively support Jane's request. Last year I had some correspondence with Chris Pires at the Univ. of Wisconsin-Madison who has been doing DNA analysis of the Brodiaeas and related species. He uses cladograms to organize it and related genera phylogenetically. He was very patient in trying to explain things to me, but I found it challenging to understand and know I would very much appreciate the kind of article Jane is talking about. ------- Georgie From ???@??? Sat Dec 07 06:51:49 2002 Message-Id: From: "Cameron McMaster" Subject: difficult seeds Date: Sat, 7 Dec 2002 10:45:33 +0200 Has anyone tried growing Hypoxis hemerocallidea (=rooperi) from seed? It is a well known traditional medicinal plant in SA, one of the main ingredients for cancer and Aids treatments. It is often called African Potato, and has bright yellow star flowers. It is in great demand so the wild populations are being severely depleted. It is notoriously difficult to germinate, but once growing, it is very easy.We haven't had luck with sowing seeds in a container, but seeds sown in the open seem to germinate after two years! Perhaps a few after one year. The local wild plants drop their seed in summer, when temperatures can be over 30C sporadically, and then there are regular overnight frosts - in the Cathcart district often -3C and occasionally -8C. So it sounds like a candidate for putting seeds in the freezer compartment for a couple of days before sowing. I will try it this year. Jane and Alberto I agree that young bulbs are much easier to relocate when they are just 2-3 years old, big enough to survive posting, and small enough to adapt to new conditions. Mature bulbs seem to rot more easily, or they sulk and need careful attention (not to mention the virus risk, as you explained). With Amaryllids the cost difference between 2-year olds and mature bulbs (often 7+ years old) is significant, especially for someone wanting to start up a collection. And it is better to have a few to plant in a pot than just one. But growing your bulbs from seed is soooo satisfying when, after years, they eventually flower! Rhoda Stutterheim, E.Cape From ???@??? Sun Dec 08 20:51:20 2002 Message-Id: From: Marguerite English Subject: 'The Bulb Garden' Date: Sat, 07 Dec 2002 13:21:30 -0800 All current members of PBS who joined through the end of October should have received issues 1-3 of 'The Bulb Garden' by regular mail. If you did not receive your copies, please let me know privately. I am always seeking articles and welcome your inquiry about writing one, or about a topic you would like to see included. If you have a garden-related business, we also accept advertising. The winter issue is being prepared now; be sure to join the Pacific Bulb Society soon to receive yours! Please send all inquiries to: meenglis@cts.com Marguerite English, Editor: 'The Bulb Garden' Gardening in USDA zone 7, 3700 feet in the mountains east of San Diego, Ca., US of A. From ???@??? Sun Dec 08 20:51:20 2002 Message-Id: From: "Mary Wise" Subject: Pronunciation of botanical names Date: Sun, 8 Dec 2002 10:04:51 +0800 Would there be anyone on this list who would be willing to guide me through the uncharted waters of correct pronunciation of bulb names. Everyone seems to say things a little differently and there is people out there who make it a point to correct ! others while sounding as though they are putting words through a mangle themselves :)) . I for one would truly appreciate some clarification on some of the more difficult names : Leucocoryne for example, I have heard so many different versions LOL it is hard to choose !!!!! :) From ???@??? Sun Dec 08 20:51:20 2002 Message-Id: From: "Ixia" Subject: Pronunciation of botanical names Date: Sun, 8 Dec 2002 13:13:12 +1100 Hi Mary, there is a great little book I bought years ago to help me. "Dictionary of Plant Names", published by Timer Press and written by Allen J. Coombes. The ISBN No. is 0-88192-0213-1 Printed in Finland. You should still be able to get it. The description says " Tor pronunciation, derivation and meaning of botanical names, and their common-name equivalent" t has been very helpful for me and is very well set out. It is general though, not just bulbs. If there is one specifically for bulbs I would be interested. Hope this helps. regards, Bill Richardson Gippsland Australia 8-30 c. Lovely days of Spring. Water restrictions here. Ixia site: http://www.angelfire.com/ri/ixia Suite 101 site: http://suite101.com/welcome.cfm/bulbs_and_plants From ???@??? Sun Dec 08 20:51:21 2002 Message-Id: From: "Den Wilson" Subject: Pronunciation of botanical names Date: Sun, 8 Dec 2002 08:08:26 -0000 Mary, I don't think you've got a chance of getting a definitive answer to this one. There are accepted conventions but you and I would probably pronounce (and spell) the word 'tomato' differently and both be correct (cue for a song?). Ask any group of bulbophiles for the correct pronounciation of 'Nerine' and you will probably start a fight. The truth is that there are no latin-speaking Romans around to ask anymore so don't be put off by people who feel they have to correct you and do it your way. Leucocoryne normally has the accent on the first and third syllables but if somebody wants to correct me.....? Cheers. Den Wilson Isle of Wight UK. From ???@??? Sun Dec 08 20:51:21 2002 Message-Id: From: "Dr Paul Chapman" Subject: Pronunciation of botanical names Date: Sun, 8 Dec 2002 10:50:02 -0000 Den, Would Nereen, Nereeny, Neriny and Nereyn lovers fight over pronunciation? Surely not? {; From ???@??? Sun Dec 08 20:51:21 2002 Message-Id: From: "J.E. Shields" Subject: Pronunciation of botanical names Date: Sun, 08 Dec 2002 08:13:44 -0500 Hi Mary and all, Along this line, Sir Peter Smithers says that botanical Latin is a written, not a spoken language! In any case, beyond Den's point of the differences between British English and American English pronounciations, think of the French and the German pronounciations! (We won't mention Aussie accents here.) Don't let smart-assed know-it-alls dictate to you how to pronounce scientific names in Latin! I had three years of (classical) Latin in high school, 50 years ago. In the occasional instances where I can remember the Classical Latin pronounciation, I use that. Most folks around the USA anglicize the Latin names. Who cares? It only matters that you be able to communicate to your listener what you are talking about. Follow Sir Peter's stand. Don't be bullied! Best wishes, Jim Shields in central Indiana, where we say it in Hoosier (pronounce that right if you can!) ************************************************* Jim Shields USDA Zone 5 Shields Gardens, Ltd. P.O. Box 92 WWW: http://www.shieldsgardens.com/ Westfield, Indiana 46074, USA Tel. +1-317-896-3925 Member of INTERNATIONAL CLIVIA CO-OP From ???@??? Sun Dec 08 20:51:59 2002 Message-Id: From: Lauw de Jager Subject: difficult seeds Date: Sun, 08 Dec 2002 18:41:13 +0100 Cameron McMaster a *crit : Has anyone tried growing Hypoxis hemerocallidea (=rooperi) from seed? Rhoda, This hypoxis is doing very well here. After having finaly located the seed (it is so small and the pods are minute) I have sown it several year running. It was sown in the autumn and the boxes wre left outside. Germination occured the over two years. Now so many offsets are produced that I have no need to sow again. But if anyone wnts some I can look for it. oI agree that young bulbs are much easier to relocate when they are just 2-3 years old, big enough to survive posting, and small enough to adapt to new conditions.RhodaStutterheim, E.Cape Your 2-3 year old bulbs have settled in very well. Only the winergrower from the Cape (Veltheimia capense) is still disorientated. New shoots are just begining to develop while the acclimatised bulbs had leaves already in early autumn. Kind regards Lauw de Jager BULB'ARGENCE, 30300 Fourques, France Région: Provence/Camargue, (Climat zone 9a Mediterranean) CATALOGUE D'HIVER (WINTERCATALOG) sera disponible en janvier; vous pouvez commander par le site maintenant pour un envoi à partir de maintenant jusqu'au fin mars. (En fleur actuellement à l'extérieure: Cyclamen pseudibericum, Dahlia imperialis, Gladiolus dalenii, Crocus, Oxalis bowiea, versicolor, masoniorum, Nerine undulata, bowdenii'Pink Triumph', Narcissus tazetta 'Paperwhite', Chinese sacred lily,Double, Moraea polystachya, Lachenalia bulbifera) From ???@??? Sun Dec 08 20:51:59 2002 Message-Id: From: "Ixia" Subject: Pronunciation of botanical names Date: Mon, 9 Dec 2002 04:52:39 +1100 Jim, this is good advice. I too had a couple of years of Latin at school and could repeat whole versus in Latin. However, when you come across plant names like Clivia where I've heard it pronounced so many different ways, you eventually ignore who's right and wrong and do your own thing. Anyway, as a born and bred Queenslander, I've always pronounced lots of words different to my comrades where I live now in the state of Victoria. Us foreigners always speak funny. Who cares! regards, Bill Richardson Gippsland Australia 8-30 c. Lovely days of Spring. Water restrictions here. Ixia site: http://www.angelfire.com/ri/ixia Suite 101 site: http://suite101.com/welcome.cfm/bulbs_and_plants From ???@??? Sun Dec 08 20:51:59 2002 Message-Id: From: Jane McGary Subject: Pronunciation of botanical names Date: Sun, 08 Dec 2002 11:56:30 -0800 Mary Wise wrote: >Would there be anyone on this list who would be willing to guide me through >the uncharted waters of correct pronunciation of bulb names. Everyone seems >to say things a little differently and there is people out there who make >it a point to correct ! others while sounding as though they are putting >words through a mangle themselves :)) . I for one would truly appreciate >some clarification on some of the more difficult names : Leucocoryne for >example, I have heard so many different versions LOL it is hard to choose >!!!!! :) COMMENT: At last, a question that I am actually qualified to answer! Some general gardening reference books suggest pronunciations, and many of the more common names can be found in a large English dictionary. However, most linguists would tell people, "If the person you're talking with understands what you are talking about, your pronunciation is correct ENOUGH." Botanical names can be considered "loan words" in the modern languages of the world, and many of them are still in the process of become "naturalized" (in language, that means they are being changed by speakers to conform to the sound system of their language). The sound patterns of languages and of the dialects of a given language differ among themselves, so the pronunciation of botanical names varies from country to country, too. For example, British English speakers tend to place the stress on a different syllable of a long loan word than American English speakers do (antepenultimate for the former, penultimate for the latter). There is a great deal of variation on where word stress gets placed, and only a real pedant would quibble about it. (For example, we pedants say "DOdecaTHEon" because the word contains two roots, 'twelve' and 'gods'.) Many of the more common plant names are given in any large English dictionary, with their pronunciation in the dialect to which the dictionary pertains, including word stress. You can pronounce the vowels in the same way that they are said in more commonly known loan words from Latin and Greek. Certain consonants are pronounced in ways that approximate their sounds in the Latin and Greek sources. Thus, ch is k as in 'key', and j is y as in 'yes'. The letter c follows the pronunciation rules typical in English, so that we say "nar[s]issus" instead of "nar[k]issus". Different rules are followed in German, French, and other European languages; as a result, Europeans on plant tours in North America sometimes need an interpreter to understand what botanical names are being said to them! One key to saying botanical names is to make sure you understand what the syllables are and say all of them in the right order. Look at the way the word is spelled and separate it into syllables. Say each syllable separately, then string them together. This way you will not mix up the sounds (as people do when they pronounce "anemone" as "anenome") or leave anything out. To take the example Mary mentioned, "leucocoryne," the syllables are leu-co-co-ry-ne. In American pronunciation, the "eu" sounds like the vowel in "too"; in British, it would probably sound more like the vowel in "view". Both the c's are "hard" [k]. The y tends to sound like "eye", though some speakers, especially British, may give it the sound of the i in "bit". The final e has the sound of the ee in "meet", just as it does in "anemone". The stress is likely to be placed on "ry", and here the Americans have the approval of the pedants, because the stress of the Classical Greek word "coryne" 'club' is on that syllable too. (The name means 'white club' and refers to the stamens.) A British speaker, however, might prefer to stress the preceding syllable, leucoCORyne (the lack of stress on the y "shortens" it, as mentioned above). There is no need to be anxious about one's pronunciation of botanical names. Some of the most exalted plantspersons in the world use what we kindly call "idiolectal" pronunciations. That doesn't mean "the speech of idiots"--it means a variant used by only one or a few persons. I am fascinated by the way plant-name pronunciations diffuse through the gardening world, which represents a good case of what sociolinguists call a "community of practice". Thirty years ago, you would not have heard many Americans say "CLEM-atis," but now they have all heard so many English garden lecturers say it that they reject "cleMATis", which Americans have been saying for 150 years, as substandard. Maybe I'll write a paper on it someday! Jane McGary NW Oregon Editor, Rock Garden Quarterly, AND Editorial Associate, Language in Society From ???@??? Sun Dec 08 20:51:59 2002 Message-Id: From: "Mary Wise" Subject: Pronunciation of botanical names /thanks Date: Mon, 9 Dec 2002 06:36:41 +0800 Thanks so much to everyone who kindly answered my plea :) It is much appreciated and I feel more able to work names out now (at least to my satisfaction) ! :)) It is an extremely interesting area and and it is marvellous how many different sounds can be made from one word :)) the shades of the ancient Roman scholars must twirl madly at times. thanks agaain cheers Mary From ???@??? Sun Dec 08 20:51:59 2002 Message-Id: From: Mark Wilcox Subject: Pronunciation of botanical names Date: Sun, 08 Dec 2002 18:47:02 -0500 Dear all, This discussion is very interesting to me! I suspect it is to a multitude of other lurkers as well. First of all, I'd like to thank Mary Wise for having brought it up. It's one of those subjects I often wonder about, but never seem to get around to asking a question in regard to. On Sun, 08 Dec 2002 11:56:30 -0800, Jane McGary wrote: >To take the example Mary mentioned, "leucocoryne," the syllables are >leu-co-co-ry-ne. In American pronunciation, the "eu" sounds like the vowel At last! This paragraph verifies that I correctly reasoned out how to say at least one latin name on my own! For me, that's a major accomplishment. I was quite surprised to hear how others pronounced latin names at the IBS Symposium in Chicago in 2001 like Nerine, Hippeastrum, Cyclamen, and others considered common - due to the fact that it was the first time I'd been in a "geophyte social situation" where the latin names were bandied about verbally. Other names such as Galanthus, Lycoris, Muscari, and Tulipa seem to follow rules of pronunciation that are more logical or intuitive without an extensive knowledge of how we'd say them as if they came "from Latin and Greek," as Jane wrote. The trick to correctly pronouncing these names seems lie in the ability to recognize which rules of pronunciation a particular latin term is going to follow - or is it rather that our rules coincide with the Latin/Greek borrowed word rules in these specific cases? Although I didn't consciously realize it, Jane is completely correct about CLEMatis vs. CleMATis. Either pronunciation sounds correct to me after so much exposure to the Queen's English, just as we might expect to hear "tomato" pronounced differently according to the origin of the speaker. Jane, many thanks for sharing your knowledge with us! Mark Wilcox Washington, DC From ???@??? Sun Dec 08 20:51:59 2002 Message-Id: From: Theladygardens@aol.com Subject: Pronunciation of botanical names Date: Sun, 8 Dec 2002 22:01:44 EST I am still tongue-tied but have really enjoyed the discussion of botanical names and particularly Jane McGary's input. Appreciate those of you more educated than I who say it doesn't matter as long as the corespondent understands what you are talking about. I am new to the group and have several hundred bulbs in my refrigerator waiting to be planted.I do have several thousand in the ground, just adding more. Most anxious to aquire some of the bulbs you don't find in nurseries or mail-order catalogs, and I do get a lot of garden catalogs. Carolyn Craft in Los Gatos, CA From ???@??? Sun Dec 08 22:55:32 2002 Message-Id: From: Antennaria@aol.com Subject: Pronunciation of botanical names Date: Mon, 9 Dec 2002 00:28:10 EST An excellent TOW (Topic Of Week) and excellent discussion on this all-important topic. The topic is important because we all feel unsure, or possibly embarrassed at times, trying to pronounce botanical names in the company of others, possibly those thought to be more knowledgeable that one's self. Jane McGary's fine primer on pronunciation hits the nail on the head, although there is one other major thing to look for when attempting to pronounce botanical names; those names that are commemorative in derivation; genus or species epithets named in honor of this person or that, thus the person's proper name dictates the pronunciation principles. Embarrassingly I learned this rule years ago at an American Rock Garden Society meeting in Seattle Washington, USA. At a picnic lunch at one such "garden-visit" meeting, I sat next to Brian Mulligan, the eminent director of the arboretum in Seattle. Mr. Mulligan was an elderly British gent in his early 90s, and was rather dry if not terse in his botanical "reprimands". I was "talking plants" and mentioned Halesia, a lovely genus of southeastern USA small trees (+ couple species in China) with white pendulous flowers similar to Styrax, when he sternly corrected my pronunciation. I was saying "Ha - LEE - see - ah". Mr. Mullligan pointed out that the genus is named after Dr. Stephen Hales, thus the pronunciation should be "Hales - EE - ah. I was embarrassed at the time, but now look for the possibility that plant names are derived from people's proper names commemorated in latinized form.There are more of these than you might think. The hard part is when those commemorative names are based on some country of original very different than what one is familiar with, such as Russin or Chinese. But even when aware of such proper pronunciations, I think it is still important to be aware of impropriety, and possibly avoid being "technically correct" in favor of being politically correct in special instances. At a recent NARGS meeting (New England Chapter, of the North American Rock Garden Society), the speaker discussed some dwarf pine (Pinus) species, and repetitively used the interpretation of "Pi" pronounced a "Pee", and it was uncomfortably endured at best. Whether correct or not, I will always publicly pronounce the genus name for pines as "Pie - nus" or "Pye nus"; never as "Pee - nus" for the obvious embarrassing coincidence with male anatomy. Mark McDonough Pepperell, Massachusetts, United States antennaria@aol.com From ???@??? Mon Dec 09 08:21:07 2002 Message-Id: From: Dell Sherk Subject: Pacific BX 19 Date: Mon, 09 Dec 2002 06:25:47 -0400 Dear All, The items listed below have been donated by PBS members for sharing. If you are interested in obtaining some of them, please email me PRIVATELY at . Include "BX 19" in the subject line. Specify the NUMBERS of the items which you would like; do not specify quantities. Availability is based on a first come, first served system. When you receive your seeds/bulbs you will find included with them a statement of how much money (cash or check) you should send the PBS treasurer for you order. Each item costs US$2.00 to cover first-class postage and packing. It is a good idea to include you snail mail address too, in case I don't already have it. Some of you are members of the PBS discussion forum but not members of the Pacific Bulb Society. THIS BX OFFERING IS AVAILABLE ONLY TO MEMBERS OF THE PBS. Consider joining the PBS so that you can take advantage of future offers such as this. Or contact me at dells@voicenet.com If you would like to donate seeds or bulbs/corms to the PBS, please send clean, clearly labeled material to: Dell Sherk, PO Box 224, Holicong, PA, 18928, USA. Donors will receive credit on the BX for the cost of postage for their donations. OFFERINGS: Pacific BX 19: (W = Winter-growing; S = Summer-growing) SEED: From Charles Hardman: 1. Sparaxis hybrids (W), many colors 2. Tritonia duesta (W) 3. Tritonia pallida (W) 4. Tritonia squalida (W) From Mary Sue Ittner : 5. Brodiaea jolonensis--Winter growing California native found in grasslands and foothill woodlands in the central and south Coast Ranges to northern Baja California. Blooming from April to June, this is a short species, growing to 6 in. (15 cm.) with violet blossoms and an urn-shaped tube with violet staminodes with inrolled margins and purple anthers. One of the first Brodiaeas to bloom. 6. Gladiolus carmineus--Winter growing South African that blooms in fall before the leaves. It is a low grower with pink and white flowers, growing and increasing very happily in the ground in my coastal northern California garden. These are seeds from bloom this fall. 7. Lachenalia peersi--Winter growing South African. Late blooming species with purplish-green leaves and flowers that smell like carnations 8. Triteleia ixioides--Winter growing California native. This one could be T. ixioides ixioides, but I have struggled to be sure. It is short, a good yellow and was a bonus contribution growing in a pot of South African bulbs given me by Jim Robinett. Open pollinated so could be different. 9. Triteleia laxa--Winter growing California native. Another unnamed bonus from Jim, this one is a really nice one with large flowers that are shinier than most. It does produce offsets, but not as many as some forms and seems to be putting energy into getting bigger each year. It blooms earlier than some of the ones I grow, sometimes blooming in April or early May. Open pollinated so could be different. 10. Veltheimia bracteata--Winter growing, but only with a short dormancy from South Africa. Amazingly wonderful shiny green leaves and long blooming pink flowers. BULBS: 11. Cyrtanthus elatus x montanus--These are the small bulblets we have talked about and which Jim Shields gets to bloom twice a year and which he pictured on his image list. Originally from Bill Dijk in New Zealand. Thank you, Charles and Mary Sue !! Best wishes, Dell --Dell Sherk, Director, Pacific BX From ???@??? Mon Dec 09 08:21:07 2002 Message-Id: From: "Cameron McMaster" Subject: Pronunciation of botanical names Date: Mon, 9 Dec 2002 14:41:15 +0200 I once asked the world famous taxonomist and curator of the Compton Herbarium at Kirstenbosch, Dr John Rourke about pronunciation, and he had the same reply as Jim Shields - it doesn't matter how you pronounce it, as long as others know what you are talking about! Great! Rhoda Stutterheim From ???@??? Mon Dec 09 08:21:07 2002 Message-Id: From: "Alberto Castillo" Subject: Pronounciation, etc Date: Mon, 09 Dec 2002 13:25:37 +0000 Dear Mark: Do not fell uncomfortable. Pinus is pronounced PEE-noos. It is not true that when a botanical name is based on someone's name it must be pronounced in the original language. It only happens in English. Kind regards Alberto From ???@??? Mon Dec 09 08:21:07 2002 Message-Id: From: Harry Dewey Subject: Pronunciation of botanical names Date: Mon, 09 Dec 2002 09:33:59 -0500 .... If we based our pronunciations on the words from which English words have been derived, as Mr. Mulligan wanted you to do, just think how many words that were imported into English from Latin, Greek, French, etc., etc., would have to be repronounced! Few contemporary pronunciations would survive. Excuse me, should I be saying soor-VEEV? My own basic rules are (1) never correct anyone else's Latin, and (2) adopt instantly anyone else's [mis]pronunciation for the duration of any conversation, as though any other pronunciation were inconceivable (even though I may have just used a different one prior to being corrected). I don't object to ANYONE's pronunciation unless asked my opinion of it. If you are secure in your own person, acceding to someone else's pronunciation will not ruin your life -- or your reputation. The late Richard Farley, when director of the National Agricultural Library here in Beltsville, was once confronted by a staff member who demanded a promotion on the grounds that she had told all her friends she expected one and would therefore be humiliated if denied it. He reportedly replied, in declining, "Humiliation is a self-imposed condition." To adopt someone else's pronunciation is an act of politeness that will not diminish you in the slightest degree. When in Rome do as the Romans do: say ah-zuh-LAY-uh, NOT uh-ZAYL-yuh. And above all, remember Knud Lunde's sage advice: "The urge to correct [breaks] communication." Live and let live. Yet, if someone asks me tomorrow if I grow ka-MELL-yuz, I will certain respond "Yes, indeed, ka-MELL-yuz are a mainstay of my garden." Live and let live. So, Mark, quit worrying about how to pronounce genera based on Chinese, Russian, or whatnot, and just say them the way you want, or the way your conversational partner is pronouncing them. If you want guidance, check them out in a good unabridged English dictionary. ALL Latin genera are automatically English words, spellable with a capital OR lower-case initial letter, always correctly pluralizable with an -s or -es ending, and always pluralized with a lower-case initial letter. Every "unabridged" English-language dictionary that omits even a single genus -- plant or animal -- name is automatically an abridged dictionary. -- Harry Dewey (lifetime email address) 4605 Brandon Lane, Beltsville, Maryland USA 20705-2604 Exit I-95 to MD212 east; turn right on Cedar & left on Brandon 301-937-1446 Hardiness Zone 7a Founder, Alpine-L, the Electronic Rock Garden Society (the independent club that won the 2002 NARGS Award of Merit) http://www.thealpinegarden.com/alpine-l.htm From ???@??? Mon Dec 09 19:12:21 2002 Message-Id: From: Jane McGary Subject: Pronunciation of botanical names Date: Mon, 09 Dec 2002 11:24:03 -0800 Harry Dewey's posting on this topic was very much along the lines of my own thought on the subject, though I wouldn't call a pronunciation-corrector a "terrorist and thug" -- just a boor who doesn't understand how language really works. (Harry, do I get credit for moderating my rhetoric here, if not on Alpine-L?) However, I wanted to comment on Harry's statement, > ALL Latin genera are >automatically English words, spellable with a capital OR lower-case >initial letter, always correctly pluralizable with an -s or -es ending, >and always pluralized with a lower-case initial letter. In general, this is the rule we editors follow, but it gets more complicated than that. The lower-case initial letter is used when the genus name is accompanied by an article (Eng. 'a', 'the') or when it is pluralized; the upper-case initial appears only when the genus name is italicized and being used in the sense of a taxonomic entity. As for pluralizing, we use the plural forms from the source language for certain genera where this is a longstanding usage in English: gladiolus, gladioli; cactus, cacti; narcissus, narcissi. There is a widely observed (though not universal) rule in editing not to pluralize with -es and not to use the possessive 's when a word ends in a syllable like -sus, -sos, -ses. Thus, we would write "Marcus's face" but "Jesus' face", and I suppose "a cactus's habitat" but "a narcissus' habitat". In difficult situations, one can avoid making a decision about plurals by writing "Gladiolus [italic] species" or "species of Gladiolus [italic]". (I can't change fonts in the e-mail application I use, but I don't get viruses in it, either.) With best wishes for the holidays, and for quick recovery to the gardens of our friends on the US East Coast! Jane McGary From ???@??? Mon Dec 09 13:46:44 2002 Message-Id: From: Mary Sue Ittner Subject: PBS TOW Date: Mon, 09 Dec 2002 11:53:33 -0800 Dear All, It pleases me when our group spontaneously creates their own topic of the week which they have recently when Mary Wise's question generated such a lot of discussion. But it does leave me wondering if I should postpone the topic I had planned to slow down on traffic. Perhaps people can comment on this. Since this seems to be a very busy time of the year some of the topics I have planned do not require much of an introduction and that is giving some of those people who have offered to provide introductions for me a bit of breathing room. Here is what I have planned for the rest of the month. December 9th--Favorite Books December 15th--Digital Photography of flowers--John Lonsdale is going to lead the discussion December 23rd--Favorite URLS--If this one proves popular enough to continue through the holidays it will and other wise I'll start us off on a pick of mine, Triteleia, the following week. Mary Sue From ???@??? Mon Dec 09 13:46:44 2002 Message-Id: From: Mary Sue Ittner Subject: Favorite Books--PBS TOW Date: Mon, 09 Dec 2002 12:17:13 -0800 Dear All, A couple of people suggested we talk about favorite books as they might lead to ideas for Christmas presents. I did a search of messages I have saved that had the word book in them from our discussions and could see that it would take me quite a lot of time to read through all the messages. I am sure I have not found them all, but here are some that people on this list have found valuable gathered together in one place: Brian Mathew's The Crocus "Growing Bulbs" by Martyn Rix Spring and Winter Flowering Bulbs of the Cape by Barbara Jeppe Clive Innes' book, The World of Iridaceae Bulbs of North America edited by Jane McGary And from Alberto: Brian Mathew's "Dwarf Bulbs" Brian's " The Smaller Bulbs" Brian and Kit Grey-Wilson's " Bulbs" And of course in that gold mine in book shape, "Collin's Guide to Bulbs" by Patrick Synge, which is one of the best bulb books of all times, where every comment reflects years of first hand experience. Invaluable for bulbs from cool to cold winter origin. Peter Goldblatt and John Manning's Gladiolus of Southern Africa "Dictionary of Plant Names", published by Timer Press and written by Allen J. Coombes Clivias by Harold Koopowitz Please feel free to elaborate on any of these books, ask questions about them and add the others you love and find yourself turning to often. Mary Sue From ???@??? Mon Dec 09 13:46:44 2002 Message-Id: From: Arnold Subject: Favorite Books--PBS TOW Date: Mon, 09 Dec 2002 15:50:35 -0500 I started collecting Bulb books before I had anywhere to grow them. I picked up a copy of Brian Mathew's "Crocus" about ten years ago and now I see it can sell for upwards of $100.00. I have Collins Guide and James Wells "Modern Miniature Daffodils" Which I use very often. Although I understand from some very well appointed daffodil experts that there are errors in Well's book. I find that catalogs are a wonderful source of information and try to keep a supply of them around, especially from the small specialty bulb growers. John Bryan's book is a must have for the vast amount of information that is in one place. The images are an extra added bonus. Although I find that in some cases printed images are often not a true representation of true flower color. ( A flower by any other color...) But, the Phillips & Rix book "Bulbs" with a good blend of scientific and in habitat images is the most worn book in the house. Arnold From ???@??? Mon Dec 09 15:33:28 2002 Message-Id: From: Arnold Subject: Snowdrops Date: Mon, 09 Dec 2002 17:13:48 -0500 While we are on the subject of books. I had agreed to help John Grimshaw distribute his Snowdrop book in the States. John says that the book is sold out in UK and I guess I have the only copies left. If anyone is interested in getting one contact me Privately and I will fill in the details. Wish I had a good supply of "Crocus" by Brian Mathew Arnold New Jersey From ???@??? Mon Dec 09 23:03:33 2002 Message-Id: From: "Ernie O'Byrne" Subject: Favorite Books--PBS TOW Date: Mon, 9 Dec 2002 22:59:01 -0000 One of my favorite books is missing from Mary Sue's list and that is by Jack Elliott, who I so much wish could be part of our discussion. I find his Bulbs for the Rock Garden to be a very practical guide, certainly not complete, but a good distillation of many years of practical, hands on, growing experience. Ernie O'Byrne Northwest Garden Nursery 86813 Central Road Eugene OR 97402-9284 USA Phone: 541 935-3915 FAX: 541 935-0863 Eugene, Oregon is USDA Zone 8a on the map, but we can only grow Zone 7 plants reliably. Member of NARGS, SRGC, RHS, American Primula Society, Meconopsis Group, Alpine-L, Arisaema-L, Hellebore Group From ???@??? Mon Dec 09 15:44:48 2002 Message-Id: From: "Den Wilson" Subject: Pronunciation of botanical names Date: Mon, 9 Dec 2002 23:31:54 -0000 Hello all, A very enlightening discussion! My bottom-line is this: It's not being informed of correct pronunciation or the origin of plant names that irritate. In fact, I have a great interest in them (thank you Jane). It is being forcibly corrected in mid-sentence that inflames me. My feelings are coloured by being witness to an incident at a plant show where a panel of experts were answering questions 'on air' to an audience. A lady got up - clearly very nervous - and hesitantly began her question. She was so nervous that she dissolved entirely when a member of the panel shot her out of the sky over Latin pronunciation and she could not bring herself to finish her question. At the time, I felt like very loudly and deliberately mis-pronouncing a few good, old-fashioned, Anglo-Saxon words of my own. It cured me completely of ever attempting to correct anothers pronunciation unless asked. Even then, I can never be absolutely certain I am correct. In common with Jim, I always understood that botanical Latin was a written language deliberately and intentionally used to avoid ambiguity and overcome language barriers. In that context, pronunciation is not an issue and does not matter. Jane's excellent posting prompts me to ask if it is wise to attempt to absorb (or borrow) botanical Latin names into native language - where pronunciation problems begin to arise and ambiguities re-emerge - or is my question naive? Den Wilson Isle of Wight UK. From ???@??? Mon Dec 09 19:12:21 2002 Message-Id: From: Mary Sue Ittner Subject: Veltheimia Date: Mon, 09 Dec 2002 17:34:19 -0800 As I am offering seeds of this plant on the current BX I have a few interesting observations to share. I used to see offerings in catalogs for Veltheimia but they always seemed so expensive so I never ordered any. Then I saw some at Bill Dijk's nursery in New Zealand and thought them really beautiful. Doug Westfall was digging some Veltheimia bracteata out of his garden and shared some with me and I absolutely love them. The leaves would be worth growing them alone, but they are in bloom for a very long time as well. I planted some in my garden in a somewhat shady spot that has some protection from the elements since it is under trees and next to my garage. These are doing well and surviving with occasional summer water. They are deciduous for me even with occasional water. I envision a whole swath of them like Patty Colville described were once at the L.A. Arboretum. They are producing offsets and this year I was amazed to see some new ones in the area where I want them that weren't attached to others so some seed must have found a spot and germinated so perhaps it will happen sooner than I expect. Yea! I have had mixed success with seed. The deer ate all my seedlings one year and I had poor germination twice from fall sowing. Last year I decided to soak the seeds before I started them and planted them in winter instead of fall and had really good luck. They aren't really from a winter rainfall area even if they act that way for me so starting them later seemed worth a try. Remembering Diana Chapman's wonderful fire method story and her tale of getting massive quick germination using fire I tried soaking my seed in smoke water, but found no real difference between smoke water, regular water, and kelp water. Cathy Craig got seeds once to bloom in 18 months and I remembered that. I started some inside and some outside. The ones inside I remembered to fertilize more and they have quite a few leaves now even though they aren't even a year old. The ones I left outside and fertilized less have only one and sometimes the second leaf now, but the leaves are much healthier looking, darker green, shiny. Lauw advised me that I'd really love Veltheimia capensis. I ordered one from Diana and it disappeared. I suspect birds, but it could have been something else. It was very sad. I requested seed whenever it appeared on exchange lists, but never got it. Finally last year I ordered seeds from Rachel (which I should have done straight away) and had good germination and most all have returned. It is very strange however that the seedlings all seem to be growing on their own schedule with one making great progress and having already about 4 leaves and many others with one or two leaves and a few just now leafing out. Doug last year sent me one that was supposed to be V. capensis that the birds singled out for attention immediately!! I sheltered it in my green house where they can't go and it put out replacement leaves. It looks like V. bracteata to me but he tells me that it still may be capensis. Do the two hybridize? When Bill Dijk was in Pasadena, I bought seed of his bicolored form that I admired in New Zealand. I haven't started it yet, but wonder if the seeds come up how many I can expect to be bicolored? Mary Sue From ???@??? Mon Dec 09 19:12:21 2002 Message-Id: From: "Alberto Castillo" Subject: Veltheimias Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2002 02:20:35 +0000 Dear Mary Sue: Seed of Velthemia bracteata (wavy edged shining deep green leaves) received from the summer rainfall region of S. Africa germinated in a 100% when fresh (this is, sown in Spring from a previous Autumn sowing). They tend to be evergreen and are superb pot plants. Summer dormant V. capensis (greyish foliage, most of the bulb out of the ground) tend to be a lot more fuzzy and apparently resents overwatering and low temperatures a lot. Foliage of both species is very different. Most interesting plants tho. Regards Alberto From ???@??? Tue Dec 10 13:19:42 2002 Message-Id: From: Jane McGary Subject: Pronunciation of botanical names Date: Mon, 09 Dec 2002 18:32:26 -0800 Den Wilson wrote, >Jane's excellent posting prompts me to ask if it is wise to attempt to >absorb (or borrow) botanical Latin names into native language - where >pronunciation problems begin to arise and ambiguities re-emerge - or is my >question naive? Well, yes, it is naive, because language progresses and changes as users borrow and naturalize words whether it's "wise" or not. Some countries (such as France) have language "academies" that rule (typically, quite conservatively) on what is permissible in the written language, but humans being what they are, the spoken language is usually way out ahead of the written one. You can't freeze language, and like Heraclitus's river, a language is never the same from day to day or speaker to speaker. And, sadly, sometimes you can't preserve one, either. The extinction of languages is progressing at a rate similar to the extinction of plants, and just as some plants now exist only in herbaria, some languages exist only on audio tape or written transcriptions. Jane McGary NW Oregon, USA From ???@??? Mon Dec 09 19:37:55 2002 Message-Id: From: "Cathy Craig" Subject: Veltheimia Date: Mon, 9 Dec 2002 19:35:48 -0800 Dear all, Ah one of my favorites. I am not a big 'leaf' person, but for the Veltheimias I make an exception - they are indeed beautiful plants did they never bloom - as Mary Sue has said. Re: V. capensis: There are perhaps beautiful capensis plants. Perhaps it is in the eye..... To me they look like a weak and spindly V.b. They do, it's true, have glaucous green leaves but they are narrow and not particularly attractive. Same for the flowers - inferior to but very similar to V.b. (My opinion only) The V.bs I grew and bloomed from seed in so short a time were indoors under lights and were fed a dilute fertilizer with each watering. I don't remember the foliage being particularly inferior indoors but once you put them outside to harden off, it won't take any time at all for their leaves to broaden, thicken, and look a nice shiny green. I am trying hard to get the number of pots down by planting out bulbs into the ground a la Gary Buckley. Several of the V.bs are now occupying a raised bed originally built for Hipps and so far they are responding fine. Cathy Craig President PBS Maritime zone 9b From ???@??? Mon Dec 09 21:02:16 2002 Message-Id: From: Elizabeth Waterman Subject: Pronunciation of botanical names Date: Mon, 09 Dec 2002 19:55:55 -0800 Thank you all for your comments about pronouncing latin. Now I will never, ever correct anyone else's pronunciation. I particularly found valuable pronouncing each syllable. I have a question on pronunciation somewhat related to this discussion, but it's the name of a tree under which some bulbs grow. Jacaranda. I don't think the word is either Latin or Greek. Now I've heard Jacaranda is named for a Dutch explorer and is native to Brazil. I have heard the "J" pronounced as a j (Jack), an h (hat) because it is Spanish!! and something else that I can't remember. Is anyone willing to comment on this? Thanks, Liz From ???@??? Mon Dec 09 21:02:16 2002 Message-Id: <002501c2a004$dd6b3820$0a01a2c6@jar> From: "Georgie" Subject: Pacific BX 19 Date: Mon, 9 Dec 2002 20:29:45 -0800 Dear Dell (and all) ----- Some comments on the two items from PBX 19 associated with Jim Robinett. # 8 -Jim grew many more T. ixioides scabra than either of the other two forms (vars.?) - so that is the most likely candidate. #9 - Your description of the T. laxa is most like the form that we called "Sierra Giant," with large light lavender and shiny flowers, forming an umbel as large as 10 or 12 inches when mature. It is indeed an early bloomer, 3-4 weeks ahead of any other T. laxa we grew, and indeed forms fewer offsets than some other forms, concentrating its energy on getting bigger, as you say. All Jim's bulbs were open pollinated (unless specifically protected), so chance hybridization is indeed a risk, in both cases. Georgie Robinett From ???@??? Mon Dec 09 21:02:16 2002 Message-Id: From: "Floral Artistry" Subject: Veltheimias Date: Mon, 9 Dec 2002 20:40:00 -0800 I will get a photo soon. I have two growing on my table (they were outside all year until now). I am trying to force the flowers a little early. I have a yellow with very narrow, dark green and wavy foliage while the other has not bloomed for me but was given as a trade as capensis. It is lighter green with wide, lightly wavy leaves but it is a larger plant overall. They both have been growing at my beach growing area in the shade. They are watered heavily year-round and have remained evergreen since I have gotten them last year about this time or before. John From ???@??? Mon Dec 09 21:02:16 2002 Message-Id: From: Antennaria@aol.com Subject: Pacific Bulb Society Digest Date: Mon, 9 Dec 2002 23:58:57 EST I used to worry, but that was years ago, and I'm relatively comfortable with plant name pronunciation now.But I do still look for commemorative names and believe it's most reasonable to attempt to replicate the "commemoratee's" name when possible. Most floras are full of such names. I used to pronounce the species epithet of Penstemon davidsonii as "Dave-id-SOW-nee-eye", which is possibly a little bit silly as the name clearly commemorates someone named Davidson... the syllables are clearly not meaningful botanical latin roots and combinations, so it just makes good sense to say "DAVE-id-son-eye". But when it comes to clematis, or saxifraga, I'm like a chameleon, using the ToeMAYtoe or ToeMAHtoe pronunciation preferred by the person I'm speaking with. There's another nuance to this name pronunciation thing, and that is bad or distorted pronunciation.When I lived in the Seattle, Washington area, I frequented the garden of one very enthusiastic rock gardener.She liked Alliums, and knew that I made it my special interest, therefore frequently talked about them. She'd pronounce the genus without hesitation as "AL - yums", each time sending a small twinge through my sensibilities, but she was so enthusiastic, kind, and sharing, that I never did say anything about her novel pronunciation of the genus. Actually I kind of liked it and will never forget it... the cute name suggesting Alliums that are so pretty and appetizing that they've become AL-yums. Mark McDonough From ???@??? Mon Dec 09 21:32:55 2002 Message-Id: From: Douglas Westfall Subject: Veltheimia Date: Mon, 09 Dec 2002 21:21:06 -0800 Is Veltheimia the TOW? I'd love to send some pictures, but the PBS wont accept them. Someone asked it V.bracteata and V. capensis hybridize. They do, and I have two beautiful specimens blooming right now. Doug From ???@??? Mon Dec 09 22:09:26 2002 Message-Id: <4.2.2.20021209210316.00d156f0@mail.mcn.org> From: Mary Sue Ittner Subject: Pacific BX 19 Date: Mon, 09 Dec 2002 21:32:17 -0800 Dear Georgie, Those were my descriptions. I don't think #8 seems to be T. ixioides scabra based on the key I came up with from all my books and talking with you and Diana. I have some exceptional T. ixioides ssp. scabra from seed the two of you collected that blooms for months and is a marvelous plant. The lobes on this one I collected seed from are more ascending and not as flat as I understood scabra to be, but the tube measurement is a little off for ixioides ixioides. It doesn't fit either exactly. It is bright yellow and very attractive and I'm happy just to leave it at T. ixioides and not quibble about a subspecies. I'll look and see if I can find a picture of either to scan in for the image lists. When I talked to you before and described #9 which I was delighted with when it bloomed you thought it could be what you called 'Sierra Giant' and on my tag I call it that with a question mark. I just was reluctant to include that with a description since you hadn't seen it in person. It's a great form regardless. Mary Sue From ???@??? Mon Dec 09 22:09:26 2002 Message-Id: From: Mary Sue Ittner Subject: Veltheimia and TOW Date: Mon, 09 Dec 2002 21:52:49 -0800 Dear All, Everyone who took the time to vote said they wanted a topic of the week. That is something we can talk about in addition to anything anyone else wants to talk about. We are not limited to talking about the topic of the week. I hope some of you will talk about your favorite books, but it is impossible to know which topics will be favorites. Veltheimia is not the topic of the week but we can talk about it. I brought it up because I was offering seeds and wanted to report that I found late winter a better time to start them. My Veltheimia bracteata usually starts into growth just like my South Africa bulbs from winter rainfall areas. It goes dormant in summer and in September or October the beautiful leaves appear. So that led me to think I should start seeds then. When we discussed this on the IBS forum some people reported theirs were evergreen. There were a few who felt they bloomed better if allowed to have a dormant period and if watered too much in a hot humid summer some reported they had lost theirs to rot. Maybe Rhoda will repeat what it is like for them in their native habitat. I have some great Veltheimia saved files from the IBS forum for anyone who is new to this genus and would like to have them. Doug gave me another Veltheimia capensis this year. He has been most generous. It looks just like my Sil seedlings except it is much bigger and has more leaves. So I expect finally to be able to compare it to V. bracteata. I may get more rain than it is happy with since they are always described as coming from dry areas. I am experimenting with some sheltered from the rain and some that are not. So far we haven't had much rain so they haven't really been put to the test. And the birds are leaving them alone this year so far. We set our forum up not to allow attachments of any kind. But Doug you can send your images to one of the images lists and tell us where to look at them. Mary Sue From ???@??? Tue Dec 10 07:31:05 2002 Message-Id: From: "Cathy Craig" Subject: Favorite Books--PBS TOW/JACK ELLIOTT Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2002 05:34:04 -0800 I am reminded by Ernie's post to mention again Jack Elliott. He is reading messages and mail but is confined most of the time to a nursing home. He would appreciate hearing from anyone wishing to write or send a card. As Christmas approaches I am encouraging everyone who will take the time to send him at least a Christmas card: Jack Elliott 30 High Street Charing, Nr Ashford Kent TN27 OHX UK Cathy Craig President PBS Maritime zone 9b > > One of my favorite books is missing from Mary Sue's list and that > is by Jack > Elliott, who I so much wish could be part of our discussion. > From ???@??? Tue Dec 10 07:31:05 2002 Message-Id: From: Lauw de Jager Subject: Hypoxis hemerocallidea Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2002 15:03:03 +0100 Cameron McMaster a *crit > Our H. hemerocallidea never make offsets, and the seeds are about the same > size as an average Lachenalia seed - large enough to find easily. It sounds > as if you may have a different one? To compare, I am posting a picture to > the AB-images. > Rhoda, > I went to get some from the garden. Indeed the seed is not that small,, but > the pods do not contain many. Could you have a look at the picture of the > Hypoxis in our website to make sure that I have the right name. Please give > me the adress of AB images and if possible to subscribe to it Many thanks for any help you could give Kind regards -- Lauw de Jager BULB'ARGENCE, 30300 Fourques, France Région: Provence/Camargue, (Climat zone 9a Mediterranean) Site: http://www.bulbargence.com/ "GUIDE POUR BULBES MÉDITERRANÉENS": 116 pages, 400 photos, prix 10 E LE CATALOGUE D'HIVER (WINTERCATALOG) sera disponible en janvier; vous pouvez commander par le site maintenant pour un envoi, à partir de maintenant jusqu'à fin mars. (En fleurs actuellement à l'extérieur: Cyclamen pseudibericum, Dahlia imperialis, Gladiolus dalenii, Crocus, Oxalis bowiei, versicolor, masoniorum, Nerine undulata, bowdeni 'Pink Triumph', Narcissus tazetta 'Paperwhite', Chinese sacred lily, Double, Moraea polystachya, Lachenalia bulbifera) - From ???@??? Tue Dec 10 13:19:42 2002 Message-Id: From: "Cathy Craig" Subject: pronounciation... Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2002 12:09:01 -0800 Jackarandas grow here like weeds and are a beautiful addition to our fair state (at least the southern part). In Southern CA, it is pronounced "jack-a (short a as in father)-RAN-da (same short a) J. mimosifolia is apparently the most commonly grown and is native to the drier tropical and sub tropical areas of South America. J. cuspidifolia is native to Brazil, Argentina, Paraguay and Bolivia. I have a reference book here that says Pretoria, South Africa, is known as jackaranda city...there being so many of them there. Cathy Craig President PBS Maritime zone 9b > I have a question on pronunciation somewhat related to this > discussion, but it's the name of a tree under which some > bulbs grow.=A0 Jacaranda. Cathy Craig President PBS Maritime zone 9b From ???@??? Tue Dec 10 18:46:39 2002 Message-Id: From: "Cathy Craig" Subject: [GreatLakesBulbs] Clivia DORIS on offer Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2002 17:05:13 -0800 Hi Kelly, I use Pro Mix (like Jim S. does) plus #3 (large) perlite plus (white) pumice (at about 3/16 in dia). Ratio is loosely: in a one gal pot Pro Mix, about 1 C perlite, about 1/2 C pumice. Cathy Craig President PBS Maritime zone 9b > > Speaking of Clivia, can anybody recommend a good potting mix. I'm just > using regular potting soil. I feel like I need more drainage. Sand just > seems to make things heavier. Could I just add additional perlite as an > easy solution? From ???@??? Tue Dec 10 20:44:27 2002 Message-Id: From: Mary Sue Ittner Subject: Favorite Books--PBS TOW Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2002 19:50:25 -0800 Aren't there other book collectors in this group? I second Ernie's choice of Jack Elliott's book. I love that book and find myself rereading it every year when the seed lists arrive. I too miss Jack's participation. He was so generous with his knowledge and experiences of success and failure and there was always the delight and love of flowers shinning through. I have many books including a lot of the ones I summarized that had been mentioned on the PBS list in the past. But there are others not mentioned that I would like to add. I especially like the books that are written by people who actually grow the plants and are therefore sharing their experiences. Bulbs for New Zealand Gardeners & Collectors by Jack Hobbs and Terry Hatch is one such book. Terry told me he had grown all the plants he talked about. Although this book is out of print with the marvel of the Internet we have found copies in New Zealand to share with friends. This is a good book for California growers of bulbs since it concentrates on some of the bulbs that are more easily grown in areas that don't get so cold. It gives cultural information, describes genus and species, sometimes describing the species, sometimes telling about habitat and their luck with growing. Another book written in 1936 but republished in 1990 is Adventures with Hardy Bulbs by Louise Beebe Wilder. This one doesn't have pictures, but it is really fun to read. Wilder lived in New York City so her experiences would be really different than Hobbs and Hatch. My husband located a copy of Sima Eliovson's Bulbs for the Gardener in the Southern Hemisphere written in 1967. She is South African, but the bulbs she talks about are world wide. She doesn't describe as many species of each genus, but gives interesting cultural information. For example about Veltheimia which we discussed yesterday she says, "Plant the large bulbs at the end of summer or early in autumn in light soil containing plenty of leaf-mould. The neck of the bulb should be at soil level or slightly above it. Choose a shady situation under trees as the Forest Lily likes shade and does not resent competition from tree roots." and so on I am very fond of Cyclamen and have appreciated Cyclamen by Christopher Grey-Wilson. In addition to the Barbara Jeppe book my husband one Christmas presented me with a copy of Niel du Plessis & Graham Duncan's Bulbous Plants of Southern Africa. Like Arnold's well worn copy of Phillips and Rix for years I would look through both of those books and dream about growing some of the plants in them. This one covers the Amaryllidaceae and other families left out of the other. Often one species will be listed in one of the books and not the other even in the genus is in both books. If you want to grow Lachenalia then you need Graham Duncan's The Lachenalia Handbook. We've already mentioned some of Brian Mathew's other books, but I have found Growing Bulbs: The Complete Practical Guide to be another good general book. It includes a lot of information about South American bulbs not readily found but often doesn't have information about a particular species I want to know about. But still I often find the answer I am looking for and he shares his experience if he has it. Finally back in those days before I became a bulb fanatic and just had a few general bulb books, I purchased an Ortho book called All About Bulbs. This revised edition was published in 1986 for $6.95. What made this book a gold mine for a beginner from California was that the editors had as consultants August De Hertogh, Stan Farwig, Vic Girard, and Wayne Roderick. The latter three had large collections of bulbs and were growing them in northern California. Many they had grown from seed and so this book told about bulbs and species never found before or since in such a book. It has been revised once again and now is back to tulips, hyacinths, narcissus and all the bulbs most people think of when they think of bulbs. These were featured too, but there were many others I had never heard of before. And what I loved was they had a map of the United States. If the map was colored in dark blue that meant the bulb could be naturalized with normal garden care in that area. If light blue, the bulb could be grown outdoors with some precautions. If uncolored the bulb would be difficult to grow as a perennial, but still maybe possible in bulb frames, greenhouses, or maybe as an annual. I don't know how accurate the maps were, but the maps for a very large number of genera for my part of California were colored dark blue or light blue so there was a whole range of possibilities open to me. Mary Sue PBS List Administrator From ???@??? Tue Dec 10 20:44:27 2002 Message-Id: <003e01c2a0cb$c31f2a40$0a01a2c6@jar> From: "Georgie" Subject: Pacific BX 19 Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2002 20:13:33 -0800 Dear Mary Sue - Thanks for the clarifications. It sounds as if your T. ixioides is probably a garden hybrid between "var. scabra" and "var. ixioides". I put those terms in quotes because the more Jim and I saw, the more we questioned whether it was possible to "draw a line" between, or among, the various T. ixioides we found. I would venture a guess that about half of what we saw could be classified as "intergrades" between the supposed vars. The most common was an intergrade between "var. anilina" and "var. scabra" found throughout middle altitudes in much of the Sierras. Then, west of Red Bluff, we found a form with flowers that appeared to be var. ixioides (rather far out of its usual range ! ), but with scabrous stems (supposedly a pointer to var. scabra). Flattish flowers usually does mean "var. scabra", but I am not sure that tube measurement is a reliable differentiator. Petal shape is sometimes helpful. But, it is a problem... ------------ Georgie From ???@??? Tue Dec 10 20:44:28 2002 Message-Id: From: "Lyn Edwards" Subject: TOTW Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2002 15:35:13 +1100 Dear Mary Sue and all, I have most of the books mentioned so far in this discussion but the one mentioned that really brought back memories, and I still refer to it, is the Ortho book you mentioned in your last message,perhaps a rather unusual book to be on sale in Australia but I have it and a sister one called "All About Perennials". According to the price tag on the cover I paid $1.90 Aust. each for these in the dim distant past. Another American book which first introduced me to such delights as Bessera and Erythroniums and other delectable goodies is an earlier one from 1982, HP Books "Bulbs, How to Select,Grow and Enjoy" by George Harmon Scott. I wonder if Horticulural Press still exists? At that time this book was the place of dreams as few of the non mainstream bulbs were available here and those that were I could not possibly have bought at that time due to financial and family constraints way back then, Lyn Edwards Canberra From ???@??? Tue Dec 10 20:44:28 2002 Message-Id: From: Jane McGary Subject: Favorite Books--PBS TOW Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2002 20:44:29 -0800 A book to which I often turn for information on bulbs is "The AGS Encyclopaedia of Alpines" (2 vols.; Alpine Garden Society, 1994). It is very expensive, if indeed still in print, but it contains entries by some of the leading experts on the various genera, such as Martyn Rix on Fritillaria, and also many entries on South American genera by John Watson. Not all the plants included are true alpines, but merely plants that tend to be grown by "alpine gardeners," which means devoted collectors of more or less hardy plant species. Jane McGary Oregon, USA From ???@??? Tue Dec 10 21:51:37 2002 Message-Id: From: "Kathy Andersen" Subject: Favorite Books--PBS TOW Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2002 00:39:29 -0500 My favorite bulb books deal primarily with hardy bulbs. I really love the old classics for their beautiful pictures and current information of the day: Herbert's "Amaryllidaceae" (1837), "The Narcissus" by Burbridge and Baker (1875), "The Ladies' Flower-Garden of Ornamental Bulbous Plants" by Mrs. Loudon (1861) and Maw's "A Monograph of the Genus Crocus" (1886). The illustrations in the last book are truly amazing. Then there are some more general books that are useful references but are not always up-to-date as far as nomenclature is concerned: Grey's 3 volume set of "Hardy Bulbs" (1938) is useful in identifying older names. For example the Veltheimia viridifolia I grew a jillion years ago is today V. capensis (it is hardy in England, hence its inclusion in the Liliaceae volume). I have found the Grey-Wilson and Brian Mathew "Bulbs, the Bulbous Plants of Europe" very helpful for identification in the field because of its references to indigenous areas. I frequently refer to the Mathew's books mentioned by Mary Sue and would like to add the book he co-authored with Baytop, "The Bulbous Plants of Turkey". His book, "The Larger Bulbs" is also of value. My most dog-eared books are John Blanchard's "Narcissus A Guide to Wild Daffodils" and "Lilies" by Synge. There are hosts of others that I use frequently (bulb books are my thing), but these are two on which I really do rely. Kathy Andersen ksa@del.net Wilmington, Delaware zone 6b-7a From ???@??? Wed Dec 11 07:04:42 2002 Message-Id: From: "Cameron McMaster" Subject: Hypoxis hemerocallidea Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2002 08:39:08 +0200 Lauw I looked at your web site picture, and it does seem to be the same, but I'm not quite sure. The flowers of many Hypoxis spp are similar, and yours definitely look like H. hemerocallidea flowers. The leaves should be in three distinct ranks, like a fountain with three sections - described as 'sickle-shaped' in some books- and they can get quite long in adult plants, to 60+ cm and averaging 30 cm wide. They are also channelled, with a prominent keel or ridge on the underside. The leaves are usually quite hairy, always with white hairs beneath. The long older leaves are sometimes used by rural people to make ropes. The address for AB Images: AB_images@yahoogroups.com Rhoda Stutterheim From ???@??? Wed Dec 11 07:04:42 2002 Message-Id: From: Dell Sherk Subject: Favorite Books--PBS TOW Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2002 07:44:36 -0400 I have a number of the books already listed as favorites and agree with the plaudits, but I would like to add a few to the list. A must-have for cyrtanthus growers: A Review of the Southern African Species of Cyrtanthus by Reid and Dyer available from IBS Thad Howard's recent book, Bulbs for Warm Climates, especially his discussions of rhodophialas and rainlilies. (University of Texas Press) John Bryan's RHS Manual of Bulbs, which is out-of-date compared to his wonderfully colorful, new Bulbs, but which I know better when it comes to checking nomenclature and spelling. (Timber Press) My first bulb book, Bulbs: A Complete Handbook by Roy Genders (Bobbs-Merrill) an old standby which still has some useful information. And on the same note, the IPNI search site on the web (www.ipni.org), though a book only in the electronic sense and more properly included with the favorite URL TOW coming up. Best wishes, Dell --Dell Sherk, Director, Pacific BX From ???@??? Wed Dec 11 13:31:20 2002 Message-Id: From: Lauw de Jager Subject: Hypoxis hemerocallidea Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2002 22:22:34 +0100 Cameron McMaster a *crit > I looked at your web site picture, and it does seem to be the same, but I'm > not quite sure. The flowers of many Hypoxis spp are similar, and yours > definitely look like H. hemerocallidea flowers. The leaves should be in > three distinct ranks, like a fountain with three sections - described as > 'sickle-shaped' in some books- and they can get quite long in adult plants, > to 60+ cm and averaging 30 cm wide. They are also channelled, with a > prominent keel or ridge on the underside. The leaves are usually quite > hairy, always with white hairs beneath. The long older leaves are sometimes > used by rural people to make ropes. Rhoda, Thanks for the info. Indeed it is H. hemerocallidea. This species is doing well here and proofs to be very adaptable. Does well with summer water, but also in a dry rockery (in which it still flowering at the moment). Our form makes very large corms with many buds on it. Very often a piece of a corm generates small plants. On the otherhand seeds are not set abundantly. Kind regards -- Lauw de Jager BULB'ARGENCE, 30300 Fourques, France Région: Provence/Camargue, (Climat zone 9a Mediterranean) cold this morning 8°C(48F) Site: http://www.bulbargence.com/ "GUIDE POUR BULBES MÉDITERRANÉENS": 116 pages, 400 photos, prix 10 E LE CATALOGUE D'HIVER (WINTERCATALOG) sera disponible en janvier; vous pouvez commander par le site maintenant pour un envoi, à partir de maintenant jusqu'à fin mars. (En fleurs actuellement à l'extérieur: Cyclamen pseudibericum, Dahlia imperialis, Gladiolus dalenii, Crocus, Oxalis bowiei, versicolor, masoniorum, Nerine undulata, bowdeni 'Pink Triumph', Narcissus tazetta 'Paperwhite', Chinese sacred lily, Double, Moraea polystachya, Lachenalia bulbifera) - From ???@??? Wed Dec 11 13:31:20 2002 Message-Id: From: Ken K Subject: Veltheimia Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2002 13:31:55 -0800 It probably has a lot to do with my climate, but Veltheimia bracteata has always done very well for me. It was one of my very first South African bulbs, and remains a favorite. I read about it in the Sunset Western Garden book and a couple of specialty bulb books (the HP Bulb book), however they were not to be found locally. I finally tracked one down at Catalog of Unusual Succulents, a mail order cactus & succulent nursery. A short while later, one turned up at Berkeley Horticultural Nursery and I grabbed that one also. The BHN plant had a much nicer plant habit, and a richer pink color to the flower. Both set a few seeds from their own pollen, which ripened during the early summer and sprouted readily in the fall. My plantings were severely damaged during the 1990-1991 freeze because they were all in containers, so I spent a few years building my stock back up again. I have been growing the yellow selection of bracteata for two seasons now, however it was small (only 15 mm in diameter) when I received it - directly from South Africa - and has not bloomed yet. It looks like it should be large enough next year. By all rights it should have bloomed by now, but perhaps the cross-hemisphere jolt set it back. While I have not been able to match Cathy's 18 month seed-to-bloom time, I think I recall some of my more vigorous seedlings blooming in their second or third season. Mine were all grown outdoors, and I tend to leave them crammed in their seedling pots too long. I plant the untreated seeds barely covered in regular potting mix, and start to water in late September/early October, as soon as the nights cool. They sprout easily and completely as long as they are kept out of direct sun. Under shaded, moderate conditions, bracteata seedlings can be persuaded to grow continuously for their first two seasons, which packs a lot of weight on them quickly. Mature bulbs are another story. I have found that my strain is predisposed to a distinct summer dormancy, and they will become rangy if they are forced to remain green. They will also try to bloom in the summer if kept growing, and this bloom is not only poor, but also causes weak blooming the next winter. Veltheimia capensis has been a different story. Here, it seems to be a finicky grower, and lacks vigor. I have not lost any plants, but they are certainly taking their time achieving blooming size. I think the climate may be a tad too cool here for them, because I bought what was supposed to be a blooming size capensis bulb from Guy Wrinkle at least three years ago, and it still puts up two or three leaves each year and seems to just sulk along. I have about 5 seedlings of capensis from Silverhill that I planted two winters ago and they are healthy and progressing nicely, although nowhere near the rate of bracteata. Ken Kehl East S.F. Bay Area, Ca. USDA Zone 9 -2°C to 38°C From ???@??? Wed Dec 11 13:31:20 2002 Message-Id: From: Jennifer Hildebrand Subject: Veltheimia Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2002 13:51:04 -0800 (PST) I'd like to add my praise to the growing discussion of Veltheimia.I'm still new to gardening with bulbs, but my Veltheimia is the pride of my garden.I got it in June 2001 from Jim Duggan.It flowered last winter,and that flower lasted a long time.I let it produce seed - it produced a single seed.Not expecting much, I went ahead and put the seed about a half inch down in the soil next to the mother bulb. The bulb went through a very short - less than a month - dormancy, and the leaves are now as vibrant and glossy as ever.The bulb has reproduced itself. I now have two distinct noses, and each is getting ready to send up a new scape.In addition, I have a little two-leaf baby growing, evidently from the seed that I buried and forgot some time ago. I have the plant in a mix suggested by Jim - 40% potting soil, 40% sand, and 20% pumice. The sand is not good - it's the stuff I was using before I figured out that fine sand hurt rather than helped the growing process.I fertilize occasionally with a plain fertilizer available at the grocery store. I most heartily recommend V. bracteata to all novices who are eager to grow something uniquely beautiful in their gardens! Jennifer From ???@??? Wed Dec 11 14:58:24 2002 Message-Id: From: IntarsiaCo@aol.com Subject: Veltheimia Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2002 17:21:22 EST In a message dated 12/11/2002 4:51:39 PM Eastern Standard Time, theotherjen8@yahoo.com writes: I most heartily recommend V. bracteata to all novices who are eager to grow something uniquely beautiful in their gardens! Makes a nice house/GH plant where it can't be grown outside. A potful of 3-4 year olds is just starting to bloom here, nicely shaded by Camellia oleifera. Mark Mazer Intarsia Ltd. Gaylordsville, CT 06755-0142 www.therapyshapes.com USDA Zone 5 Giant Schnauzer Rescue From ???@??? Wed Dec 11 14:58:24 2002 Message-Id: From: "Boyce Tankersley" Subject: Veltheimia Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2002 16:41:30 -0600 Veltheimia capensis var. deasii has been in bloom in my office window for a couple of weeks now. Beautiful light pink flowers shading to chartreuse at the mouth. The blue-green foliage is very striking. Gave Harold Koopowitz a leaf from each plant to try to get into tissue culture and I've been trying my hand at cross pollinating. Hard not to count the chickens before they hatch, but so far none of the flowers have dehisced and all those I have tried to pollinate apparently are starting to swell. On the down-side, I now understand my 2 plants are siblings and so I shouldn't expect an abundant number of seeds. Boyce Tankersley btankers@chicagobotanic.org From ???@??? Wed Dec 11 16:28:55 2002 Message-Id: From: "Cathy Craig" Subject: Veltheimia Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2002 15:29:29 -0800 My experience is that V.b. will produce prodigious amounts of seed if you just take a small brush and brush each flower. I must have finally thrown out a thousand seeds this year. Cathy Craig President PBSMaritime zone 9b From ???@??? Wed Dec 11 16:28:55 2002 Message-Id: From: Douglas Westfall Subject: Veltheimia Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2002 15:35:37 -0800 Veltheimia are beginning to show up with some of the variety that they had in the Victorian era. I have several different varieties: V. bracteata in 4 shades of pink V. bracteata x V. capensis (one has broad leaves of bracteata w/silver/gray dusting and another has a yellos "wash" over the leaves) V. bracteata rosealba V. bracteata with the reverse color pattern of rosealba V. capensis lt. pink (another)lt. red Also one that will bloom this season that is cream/white. It was sold to me as capensis, but the leaves appear to be bracteata. Another month will tell the tale. Doug Westfall From ???@??? Wed Dec 11 16:28:55 2002 Message-Id: From: Lee Poulsen Subject: Veltheimia Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2002 15:48:31 -0800 >Lauw advised me that I'd really love Veltheimia capensis. I ordered >one from Diana and it disappeared. I suspect birds, but it could >have been something else. It was very sad. I requested seed whenever >it appeared on exchange lists, but never got it. Finally last year I >ordered seeds from Rachel (which I should have done straight away) >and had good germination and most all have returned. It is very >strange however that the seedlings all seem to be growing on their >own schedule with one making great progress and having already about >4 leaves and many others with one or two leaves and a few just now >leafing out. Doug last year sent me one that was supposed to be V. >capensis that the birds singled out for attention immediately!! I >sheltered it in my green house where they can't go and it put out >replacement leaves. It looks like V. bracteata to me but he tells me >that it still may be capensis. Do the two hybridize? > >When Bill Dijk was in Pasadena, I bought seed of his bicolored form >that I admired in New Zealand. I haven't started it yet, but wonder >if the seeds come up how many I can expect to be bicolored? > >Mary Sue My biggest problem with both species of Veltheimia has been that every year, an average of about one of my mature bulbs just up and rots on me while the plant is in full growth. What causes me consternation is that there will be 5 or 6 pots all sitting together getting the same amount of sunshine and same amount of water planted in the same soil mixture, and the other 4 or 5 plants just keep growing healthily. I'm kind of guessing that, even in winter, I'm still giving them too much water and have been growing them drier and drier each year--and it *seems* like my losses are are slowly becoming fewer. I have one yellow one that I got at a sale at U.C. Irvine a few years ago that finally bloomed. I'm hoping that as the bulb matures more, the flower appearance will improve. For now I'm just glad that it flowered yellow after Doug Westfall told me that some of the labels had been mixed up on some of the little pots. I also have a few of the Bill Dijk bicolors that are mature bulbs and I think they're spectacular. The pink part is a nice saturated color so it contrasts very well with the white/yellow portion of the petal tube. The V. capensis does well here too, but it goes dormant earlier. My one large bulb of it was the unlucky winner of the rotting lottery last year. Luckily, the flower had already matured and I planted the seeds and now have two pots of nicely growing blue-green seedlings. -- --Lee Poulsen Pasadena area, California, USDA Zone 9-10 Pacific Bulb Society - Treasurer wpoulsen@pacbell.net From ???@??? Thu Dec 12 14:43:12 2002 Message-Id: From: Diane Whitehead Subject: flights to South Africa Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2002 11:27:56 -0800 I want to go to the bulb conference in Cape Town next August, so I decided to start checking for a reasonably-priced flight, assuming that there would be bargains this far in advance. There don't appear to be. I've checked some airline websites and also travellersweb.com which told me it was searching millions of possibilities. From the North American west coast, there are these routes: Return fares,in order of price, cheapest first, U.S. dollars: Vancouver to Toronto to Atlanta, then via South African to Cape Town $2300 Seattle to Chicago to Atlanta to Cape Town $2391 Vancouver to London to Cape Town $2440 (From Seattle, $2485) All the way on South African: Seattle to Atlanta to Cape Town $2527 Vancouver to San Francisco, to Atlanta, to Cape Town $2875 Seattle to London to Amsterdam to Cape Town $3037 More expensive still is Lufthansa: Vancouver to Frankfurt to Cape Town One good thing about going via London is that a stopover doesn't cost any extra. I think a stopover would be a good idea, as it is a very long way to travel. Generally, one leaves here the afternoon of day one and arrives midmorning of day three. (I know there are time zone differences I haven't included.) If anyone knows of any real bargains, could you let me know? Diane Whitehead Victoria B.C. From ???@??? Fri Dec 13 16:11:05 2002 Message-Id: From: "J.E. Shields" Subject: Haemanthus hybrids Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2002 17:57:49 -0500 Hi all, I have seeds ripening on Haemanthus albiflos pollinated with H. humilis hirsutus, which happened to be blooming at exactly the same time. I've already mentioned that I had at that time pollinated the H. humilis hirsutus with fresh pollen of H. coccineus. Those seeds ripened about a month ago and are now growing under lights. There were only 2 or 3 seeds per berry in the [humilis hirsutus X coccineus] berries, but these berries of [albiflos X humilis hirsutus] are running 4 or 5 seeds per berry. Since the bloom on the H. humilis hirsutus parent was white, I suppose the eventual blooms on these kids will also be white. Does anyone know of this cross having been made before? I can't help wondering what the hybrid plants will someday look like. What can I expect in bloom time -- 4 to 6 years away? Regards, Jim Shields in central Indiana, where we may get some new snow tomorrow night ************************************************* Jim Shields USDA Zone 5 Shields Gardens, Ltd. P.O. Box 92 WWW: http://www.shieldsgardens.com/ Westfield, Indiana 46074, USA Tel. +1-317-896-3925 Member of INTERNATIONAL CLIVIA CO-OP From ???@??? Fri Dec 13 16:11:05 2002 Message-Id: From: John Lonsdale Subject: Fw: New update to my website Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2002 22:57:49 -0500 I noticed that my e-mail software has split the URL - note that you do need the '=0' at the end of the URL for it to work. Just click on the first part that is live then add the '=0' to the URL in the browser address bar and hit return. J. Dr John T Lonsdale 407 Edgewood Drive, Exton, Pennsylvania 19341, USA Phone: 610 594 9232 Fax: 801 327 1266 Visit "Edgewood" - The Lonsdale Garden at http://www.johnlonsdale.net Zone 6b From ???@??? Fri Dec 13 16:11:05 2002 Message-Id: From: Mary Sue Ittner Subject: New update to my website Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2002 20:20:33 -0800 Dear John, I really enjoyed your images, especially the orange crocus. I never knew there could be one. Everyone is really looking forward to your being in charge of the topic of the week next week as you certainly take great pictures. What is it about the Ipheion that makes it the star? Mary Sue From ???@??? Fri Dec 13 16:11:05 2002 Message-Id: From: Billthebulbbaron@aol.com Subject: EMBRYO RESCUE???? Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2002 23:24:14 EST Does anyone here do this? I have some VERY important Narcissus seedpods that were mistakenly torn off by a FLAMING idiot (a.k.a. Darwin's Missing Link)--the seeds are well enough along to be certain the cross took, but will not be able to ripen from here on their own. Best wishes, Bill the Bulb Baron William R.P. Welch P.O. Box 1736 (UPS: 264 West Carmel Valley Road) Carmel Valley, CA 93924-1736, USA Phone/fax (831) 659-3830 From ???@??? Fri Dec 13 16:19:21 2002 Message-Id: From: "Alberto Castillo" (by way of Mary Sue Ittner ) Subject: [Australian_Bulbs] Ipheion sessile Date: Fri, 13 Dec 2002 07:56:36 -0800 Dear John: Your site remains one of the best resources in the web. Thanks for sharing such superb images. Particularly those of the organs in crocus flowers are so useful in identification. The plant we know as Ipheion sessile grows in Argentina and in Uruguay, normally in well drained soils in full sun. They are autumn-winter-spring growers flowering in late autumn-early winter. Bulbs have a buff shell like tunic. Roots are perennial and new roots appear during dormancy. Bulbs are found some 5 cm deep. In Nature they receive year round rains, an average of 900 mm. (now with the global warming almost double that). Temperatures are like for Cape bulbs. Dormancy in summer under hot conditions in the wild. Although these bulbs have genes for some hardiness it is far better to grow them almost frost free. Propagation from seed sown fresh and from offsets. Kind regards Alberto From ???@??? Fri Dec 13 11:28:17 2002 Message-Id: From: John Bryan Subject: Favorite Books--PBS TOW Date: Fri, 13 Dec 2002 10:53:53 -0800 Dear All; A great subject Favorite Books. I have found the South African Wild Flower Guides, published by the Botanical Society of South Africa to be a superb series, there are now 11 of them, well worth having and well illustrated. They are available at a modest price still, and those interested in such should look into obtaining them. Books by E.A. Bowles are well worth having, his comments are super, I also like A Botanist in Southern Africa, by John Hutchinson. Among older books I enjoy are Cyclopaedia of Botany, 2 volumes published in 1825, the hand colored illustrations are great, I have two sets of this, while the illustrations are the same they are not in the same order, kind of fun to have. The Universal Gardener and Botanist, General Dictionary of Gardening and Botany published in 1778, is a remarkable book with most interesting comments, and much can be learned from the advice given so many years ago. I have been collecting books now and botanical prints for many years, a fun hobby, it has given me lots of pleasure. Cheers, John E. Bryan From ???@??? Fri Dec 13 11:28:17 2002 Message-Id: From: "Alberto Castillo" (by way of Mary Sue Ittner ) Subject: Alstroemeria caryophyllea Date: Fri, 13 Dec 2002 10:54:44 -0800 Dear Roy: This is one of the many Brazilian species so little known. It is a forest plant. Incidentally it is A. caryophyllacea. In zones 10-12 it is evergreen and makes a very fine dwarf ground cover. Its name makes reference to the carnation scent. Gorgeous. Thanks for sharing it with us. Your reference to the hybrids in Japan is very interesting. I had no idea that the Japanese had been stealing genetic material in Brazil too. Kind regards Alberto From ???@??? Fri Dec 13 16:19:21 2002 Message-Id: From: John Bryan Subject: flights to South Africa Date: Fri, 13 Dec 2002 11:27:03 -0800 Dear Diane: Over the years I have found the cheapest way to get to South Africa is to fly via London. Often this means two separate tickets. I have flown United to London, and then British Airways from London to Johannesburg. You have to ask your travel agent for the best routing, I use American Express Platinum Card travel services and they find the best combination. I fly to London and stay a few days to get over the jet lag. Remember United do not fly to South Africa. Often flying via Frankfurt is a good option, but for my money selecting a good price to London by any airline and then BA to Joburg is the best. Cheers, John E. Bryan From ???@??? Fri Dec 13 16:19:21 2002 Message-Id: From: "Alan Meerow" Subject: Alstroemeria caryophyllea Date: Fri, 13 Dec 2002 15:51:27 -0500 Alberto, "I had no idea that the Japanese had been stealing genetic material in Brazil too." Big time. Alan ----------------------------- Alan W. Meerow, Ph.D., Research Geneticist, Systematist and Curator USDA-ARS-SHRS, National Germplasm Repository 13601 Old Cutler Road, Miami, FL 33158 USA voice: (305) 254-3635 fax: (305) 969-6410 email: miaam@ars-grin.gov WWW page: http://www.ars-grin.gov/ars/SoAtlantic/Miami/bios/bioawm.htm From ???@??? Fri Dec 13 16:19:21 2002 Message-Id: From: "Alan Meerow" Subject: Alstroemeria caryophyllea Date: Fri, 13 Dec 2002 15:54:12 -0500 One last thing - Roy was right; the correct name is A. caryophyllaea. Alan ----------------------------- Alan W. Meerow, Ph.D., Research Geneticist, Systematist and Curator USDA-ARS-SHRS, National Germplasm Repository 13601 Old Cutler Road, Miami, FL 33158 USA voice: (305) 254-3635 fax: (305) 969-6410 email: miaam@ars-grin.gov WWW page: http://www.ars-grin.gov/ars/SoAtlantic/Miami/bios/bioawm.htm From ???@??? Sun Dec 15 16:43:56 2002 Message-Id: From: Diane Whitehead Subject: seed-grown calochortus pictures Date: Sat, 14 Dec 2002 13:25:27 -0800 I just discovered a bulb site showing Audrey's bulbs. I wonder if she is a member? She has grown a lot of calochortus from seed, and I find it very encouraging. If she can do it in the UK, then I can do it here. Diane Whitehead Victoria BC Canada http://www.bulbweb.co.uk/bulbs.htm From ???@??? Sun Dec 15 16:43:56 2002 Message-Id: From: Diane Whitehead Subject: South African plant talks on N.Am. west coast Date: Sat, 14 Dec 2002 14:16:21 -0800 South African plant talks on N.Am. west coast Dave McDonald, Deputy Director of the Botanical Society of South Africa, who was a featured speaker at our February 2001 Western Winter Study Weekend, will be speaking along the North American West Coast, from California this April, north through Oregon, Washington to British Columbia mid-May as a NARGS (North American Rock Garden Society) travelling speaker. Non-NARGS clubs may be able to arrange a talk. The speaker's fee is $200 U.S., plus transportation from his previous talk, and accommodation. NARGS is paying for the international travel. You can contact the person organizing NARGS Speaker's Tours, Steve Whitesell at Elysium214@aol.com These are Dave's possible talks, but apparently he will prepare only the 3 most-requested ones of the 6 offered. 1.Winter and spring flowers of the Cape, South Africa (with emphasis on bulbs). 2. Is there an alpine zone in southern Africa? A look at the flora and environments of the mountains of southern Africa. 3. The Roof of Africa: Montane flora of Lesotho and the Drakensberg. 4. Kirstenbosch: Flagship botanical garden of South Africa. 5. The Cape Floral Kingdom -- smallest and richest in the world (covering aspects of flora, geology, ecology etc.) 6. The flora of the Cape Folded Mountains, South Africa. If you would like to hear him, check with your nearby NARGS chapter to see if they have room for visitors. Not all chapters have updated their websites with 2003 announcements, so there are likely to be more than I have listed.This information is very rough, so you will definitely need to check before venturing forth. Apr 21 - Monday All Meetings at 7:00pm at Etna United Methodist Church, Etna unless other wise mentioned NARGS Speaker - Dr. David McDonald, Deputy Director of the Botanical Society of South Africa. April 22, 2003 Tuesday We meet the second Tuesday of each month, September through May. Meetings are held at the Congregational Church of Medford, 1801 E Jackson Street, Medford, Oregon. Dr. Dave McDonald - Deputy Director, Botanical Society of South Africa Topic to be Announced May 6, 7:30 pm Dave McDonald "Roof Gardens of African Mountains" The Hoyt Arboretum, 4000 SW Fairview Blvd, Portland May 8, 2003 Seattle Regular meetings are held on the second Thursday of each month, September through June, promptly at 7:30 PM at UW Center for Urban Horticulture (CUH), 3501 NE 41st Street, Seattle, 206 543-8616. South Africa: Cape Flora, Dr. David McDonald, Deputy Director, Botanical Society of South Africa Mid May Vancouver BC Alpine Garden Club of B.C. VanDusen Gardens, Floral Hall, 37th and Oak, Vancouver on the second Wednesday, September through June, opening at 7:00, meeting at 7:30 (dates may change according to speakers' schedules). Diane Whitehead Victoria, British Columbia, Canada From ???@??? Sun Dec 15 16:43:56 2002 Message-Id: From: "Cathy Craig" Subject: Clivia seed germination Date: Sat, 14 Dec 2002 15:00:48 -0800 Hi all, I just wrote the following to someone unfamiliar with germinating amaryllid seeds and thought I might post it in case there are others who have ordered the Clivia seeds from Pen (thru PBS) in Oz and aren't quite sure what to do with them. I am NOT an authority on this topic but this is probably close to good enough. Any other input gratefully accepted as always. Yes, Clivias are "large amaryllid seeds" and while yours may not be green, the "green fleshy seed" comment applies to Clivia seeds as well. Many people put them onto damp/wet (not sopping) paper toweling in a plastic sandwitch bag (not sealed) up on a window sill with indirect light and after they germinate, then plant them. I don't have the time or patience (plus I have some very nosey cats) so I just plant them into a small plastic pot. For two seeds, I'd put them both into a 4 inch pot with sterilized seedling soil. You can leave them on the surface, perhaps sanding the surface of the potting medium, and press the seed into the surface of the soil so that they are about half burried. Keep the pot where the air circulation is good, on the warm side, and with no direct sun. Most amaryllid seeds in nature germinate on the soil surface. They will first put out a radical (white thing that looks like a root - and is). The radical will grow out and down into the soil. (If the radical gets to an inch or two and is still on the surface, make a hole in the mix with a pencil and drop the radical into the hole leaving the seed on the soil surface). A little later (a week or two?) it will send up another shoot tip that is the begining of the plant's first leaf. Considering it is now winter here, bottom heat may hasten germination. But if your house is normally warm, it may not be necessary. Regarding soil again, you can also plant in any good-draining bulb type soil mixture. IMO the most important thing is sterility to prevent damping off and good air circulation (same reason). Unless the soil is sopping wet and stays so, seeds are not that picky about 'drainage'. And seedling soil besides being sterilized (IF the label says so) usually has some Sponge Rok in it and the drainage isn't particularly bad anyway. You can probably leave them in that pot for a year. They will appreciate some very dilute liquid fertilizer with each watering and will likely grow faster with that plus some artificial light (if available). (Harold K says no fertilizer needed for a few months). Over time, the seed will eventually become dessicated and shrivel up as the plant exhausts the nutrients inside the seed by its growth. Clivias are evergreen so you will not lose any time to dormancy. Being they are seeds and not plants, they probably won't care about being switched from southern hemisphere to northern hemisphere (just a guess). They hate full sun and it will always burn the leaves and for all I know, it may be enough to kill a small young seedling. So never any direct sun. Per Harold K Ideal temps appear to be from 60F to 90F. That should cover most houses. Cathy Craig President PBS Maritime zone 9b From ???@??? Sun Dec 15 16:43:56 2002 Message-Id: From: "Georgie" Subject: seed-grown calochortus pictures Date: Sat, 14 Dec 2002 20:42:22 -0800 To Diane Whitehead -- I do not know if "Audrey" is a member of PBS, but I took a look at the website you suggested. The "home page" address is actually -- I had trouble accessing the database after looking at the first two pictures - don't know what went wrong. Her brief remarks on methods for growing from seed seem straightforward and with reasonable hope of success for the two species I was able to access -- C. westoni and C. weedii (var. weedii). Diane, I can assure you there are folks in BC - further north than you - successfully growing Calochortus, because the Robinett Bulb Farm always had customers for both bulbs and seed from there. If you are quite interested in Calochortus, you may want to sign up for our quarterly newsletter MARIPOSA, now mid-way through its 14th volume-year. It's available through me, G. B. Robinett, at P. O. Box 1993, Brookings, OR 97415. The sub price is US$ 13 a year for airmail to Canada and overseas (US$10 a year in the US), for four issues (appearing July, October, January, and April). All subscriptions are for a full volume year (to keep management of the subscription list easy). Each issue usually features a single species, with a full page of color photographs; and there is an annual seed exchange. From time to time there are special articles on cultivation and other topics. The most useful for you would probably be the article by Diana Chapman (of Telos Rare Bulbs) published last year on the success she has enjoyed with some of the more difficult species, growing in the Eureka, CA area. All back issues are available. If you decide to subscribe, please ask for a list of back issues and what species each covers. ----------- Georgie Robinett -- From ???@??? Sun Dec 15 16:43:56 2002 Message-Id: From: Diane Whitehead Subject: seed-grown calochortus pictures Date: Sat, 14 Dec 2002 21:47:40 -0800 Re: seed-grown calochortus pictures Georgie, I know that Calochortus can grow in B.C., as I have seen acres of macrocarpa in flower in the dry interior, and others in the mountains.I'm not so sure of success near the shore, though. I have a few wispy seedlings for which I have hope.That is odd that you couldn't access the pictures on Audrey's site. I double-clicked on the url I had in my message, scrolled to Calochortus in the first box, and got the following impressive list of species, most of which have photographs. Most seem to be flowering for her in 3 or 4 years from seed, but some took longer. C. dunnii, for instance, took 7 years. Diane Whitehead albus - Bay form albus rubellus albus sierra form albus wild collected amabilis amoenus apiculatus argillosus barbatus bruneaunis caeruleus caeruleus fimbriatus cataliniae chihuahuensis clavatus clavatus recurvifolius concolor coxii dunnii elegans euricarpus excavatus flexuosus fuscus gunnisonii howellii invenustus kennedyi kennedyi munzii leichtlinii luteus lyallii macrocarpus minimus monophyllus nitidus nudus obispoensis palmeri palmeri var. Munzii panamintensis plummerae pulchellus simulans splendens striatus subalpinus superbus syntropus tolmiei umbellatus umpquaensis uniflorus venustus venustus 2 spot venustus red form vestae weedii weedii-brown rim westonii From ???@??? Sun Dec 15 17:14:57 2002 Message-Id: From: Jane McGary Subject: seed-grown calochortus Date: Sun, 15 Dec 2002 10:59:30 -0800 I don't have all the species that Diane mentioned were shown on Audrey's website -- I'm missing caeruleus, chihuahuensis, dunnii, flexuosus, macrocarpus, minimus, panamintensis, and umbellatus of those cited. I do have a few not mentioned on the previous list. I have never managed to germinate seed of C. macrocarpus, even what I collected myself in the wild, so I drive over the mountains and enjoy it in the wild. Most were grown from seed from private collectors' lists, especially Ron Ratko's Northwest Native Seeds and the Archibands' seed. I plant the seed as early as I can and bring it into a frost-free plant room when it germinates. Usually I pot the seedlings on the first summer, though this is sometimes not recommended. Last spring, Ron Ratko kindly sent me some seed of previous years that he thought was "past its pull date," and I held it until fall, then planted it; some is germinating very well and I suspect it all will eventually. I've tried a few species in the open garden, but they all either got eaten by rodents or dwindled away, I assume because of wet cold conditions. Now they are all in the bulb frames, where they flower regularly and set plenty of seed (see the NARGS Seed Exchange for a good sampling this year). I have placed some C. uniflorus, the closest to a native species, in the rock garden this fall where I hope the voles won't penetrate. C. subalpinus grows quite near here, too, but at a much higher elevation where it is under snow all winter. I think I put some C. albus out too, or if not will do so next summer. C. tolmiei has struggled through a couple of winters but eventually disappeared. I'm pretty sure the problem is not temperature but excessive moisture in early winter. Once they start blooming, they seem to do so every year. I think that at least some of them do not want to be dried out really severely in summer. For example, C. amoenus, a two-tone rose-pink that is one of my favorites, responded very well after being repotted into soil that was, I thought, much too moist owing to a wet July. As for time to flowering, I think the average is four years, but some have taken six here. You can gain a year, once you have stock, by propagating the little stem bulbils formed by many species; when removing dried stems, examine them carefully near the base to make sure you're not throwing these away. Jane McGary Northwest Oregon, USA From ???@??? Sun Dec 15 16:43:57 2002 Message-Id: From: "Kathy Andersen" Subject: [GreatLakesBulbs] Clivia seed germination Date: Sun, 15 Dec 2002 14:11:21 -0500 About 1/3 of those I planted on December 5 have sent out radicals. The seeds were place in a mixture of compost, Promix, turface and granny grit in a very large sealed box on a shelf in a light stand so that conditions inside the box are very warm and humid. Seeds of C. caulescens planted in the same manner on September 23 are putting up a second leaf. Kathy Andersen ksa@del.net > Uh oh, the race is ON! > > Cathy Craig President PBS > From ???@??? Sun Dec 15 17:14:57 2002 Message-Id: From: John Lonsdale Subject: TOW - Digital Photography of Plants and subsequent manipulation of images for printing, the web etc. Date: Sun, 15 Dec 2002 19:52:28 -0500 Mary Sue asked me to introduce and moderate the above topic, and I agreed, without thinking too deeply about the monster that was about to be unleashed. That's what happens when people ask so nicely ! Rather than make this too specific too soon, I thought I'd let it go whichever way you want it to go after a relatively brief introduction (if that's possible with this subject) summarizing the way I do things to generate images for 35mm slide production, the web and for printing. Each sub-topic is a TOW in itself. I should say up front I am absolutely not a skilled photographer so will defer to someone else all questions about the finer points of photography. The results which can be obtained by a relative clown are testament to the ease of use of new digital cameras ! All aspects of image manipulation are also self-taught and I would love to hear from someone expert in the intricacies of Adobe Photoshop who won't mind me bugging them every couple of days. I now use a digital camera to meet all my photography needs, prints, slides and web images. I am very happy with the results and don't envisage ever having to go back to slide or print film. As we bring up the various aspects of digital plant photography I'd love to hear about alternatives - cameras, software and techniques - as I'm sure there are many better and different ways to do this. I have always used Nikon digital cameras, either a Coolpix 950 or now a Coolpix 995. The former offered 2 million pixel (mega pixel) resolution, the latter 3.4. The 995 is perfect for all my digital photography needs, having superb Nikon optics, sufficient resolution and a wonderful macro facility built in that allows close focus to 1/8". The unique design that allows the lens to swivel independently of the body makes taking low down shots a breeze, without ever having to lay down and crawl through the mud. This camera cost around $700 but has already been superceded at least twice as resolution etc. gets better. Good digital cameras are pretty much like good SLRs and most of the rules are the same - and the digital camera gives you just as much flexibility, just using a different interface. You do need to choose the format in which to save your images - this will determine how many you can save and what quality they will be. The ultimate quality gives you huge files and slow downloads, I compromise by using the jpg format but with minimal compression - this gives me the best of both worlds, a file around 1Mb that downloads quickly with almost no loss in quality from a TIF file. You need some removable physical memory to save your digital images to - and this varies greatly as well, in capacity, type and ease of getting images onto the computer. I use a 256 megabyte type II flash card, pretty standard, but it is important to get plenty of memory. The cards that come with the cameras are woefully short of capacity. You need to get the images from the camera to the computer and you can do this directly or indirectly. I have never even installed the software that comes with the cameras, preferring to use a flash card reader (which acts as a mini-hard drive) to download images straight to my PC, into a directory kept for that purpose. Once on your PC (or Mac) the world is your oyster ! I have two programs which are indispensable - one to manage my image database, and one to manipulate the images into their final form. The former is called ThumbsPlus ($75 download from cerious.com) - and it is really a Windows Explorer which works with thumbnails made from the images in your directories. That is a gross over-simplification and it is exceptionally powerful. One of the prime uses I make of it is to batch rename all my images - saves typing these in for every one. This program also has a preview feature - you can look at large previews of each file instantly by clicking on the thumbnail. After naming, some manipulation is always going to be necessary to get the finished product and for this I use Adobe Photoshop. The latest full version is very expensive ($700) but there are much cheaper slimmed down versions available which do most of what you need. There are also several alternative programs out there. Within Photoshop (PS) I correct the exposure, get rid of any blemishes (if necessary), re-size and change the resolution as appropriate, sharpen the image and save for the web or printing. There are also a zillion tools available for doing every possible manipulation under the sun - and there are books several inches thick available to help you do just this. Images for the web are surprisingly low resolution (72 dpi) whereas to get good prints of a reasonable size you need higher resolution images (300dpi). For printing I use an Epson Stylus Photo 1280 ink jet printer - and get results which are just outstanding. Improvements in technology allow for prints which will last 75 years or more using archival quality papers and inks. The 1280 is around $450 but you can get great prints from prints at 1/3/ to 1/2 that amount. For producing photos for web site use, PS has a 'save for web' utility which allows you to maximize quality whilst reducing file size automatically to the low levels suited for rapid downloads. Like ThumbsPlus, PS has a batch utility which allows you to process hundreds of images with a single command. So, very simply, that's the process I use to satisfy all my plant photography needs. Let's hear about alternatives, issues, questions and comments - this can be as simple or as cutting edge as we like - it's up to you ! Given that I can print a magazine quality 10 x 8 image in my basement 5 minutes after taking the picture, this technology is here to stay and enjoy - and there's certainly nothing difficult about it ! J. Dr John T Lonsdale 407 Edgewood Drive, Exton, Pennsylvania 19341, USA Phone: 610 594 9232 Fax: 801 327 1266 Visit "Edgewood" - The Lonsdale Garden at http://www.johnlonsdale.net Zone 6b From ???@??? Sun Dec 15 22:23:42 2002 Message-Id: From: Arnold Subject: TOW - Digital Photography of Plants and subsequent manipulation of images for printing, the web etc. Date: Sun, 15 Dec 2002 20:40:49 -0500 John: Thanks for the wonderful intro to the vast world of photography. I find that taking digital ( or any ) images the light plays an important role in the color rendition. The colors seem to be truer when images are captured with less than full sunlight. Full suns tends to wash out the color and reduces the contrast that one would want. So, could you briefly discuss the light ( time of day, backlight etc.,) you find most effective for good detail and color rendition. Thanks, Arnold New Jersey From ???@??? Sun Dec 15 22:23:42 2002 Message-Id: From: John Lonsdale Subject: TOW - Digital Photography of Plants and subsequent manipulation of images for printing, the web etc. Date: Sun, 15 Dec 2002 22:27:16 -0500 Arnold, That's an interesting question and I think my solution probably flies in the face of conventional wisdom. I say the latter because a professional photographer who often stops by here prays for cloudy or rainy days prior to her visit. I take a lot of close-up, or relatively close-up images and need good depth of field to get everything in focus that I want. To do this I need a small aperture, hence if I have any choice in the matter I take my photos on sunny days, with the subject in full sun or very good light. You do have to watch for shadows on the subject giving excessive contrast across the image put careful positioning works pretty well. I use matrix metering as my exposure control and get evenly exposed images, usually requiring little adjustment. Color rendition seems excellent and I've never had obvious (to my eyes) discrepancies between the colors I see and those captured by the camera and rendered on screen or print. I also like the vibrancy introduced by sunlight - pictures taken without it seem rather flat in comparison. I very rarely use flash, if I have to then it is the built in flash that I use, no backlights, nothing fancy. With respect to detail I find that the Coolpix 995 gives outstanding results both close up and from afar. I mentioned I do sharpen all images - needed whatever the camera or source of the image and I use PS to do this. The camera's sharpening option is turned off - I like to get something off the camera that has not been manipulated at all, the latter can be done better and more consistently in PS. J. Dr John T Lonsdale 407 Edgewood Drive, Exton, Pennsylvania 19341, USA Phone: 610 594 9232 Fax: 801 327 1266 Visit "Edgewood" - The Lonsdale Garden at http://www.johnlonsdale.net Zone 6b From ???@??? Sun Dec 15 22:23:42 2002 Message-Id: From: "Cathy Craig" Subject: TOW - Digital Photography of Plants and subsequent manipulation of images for printing, the web etc. Date: Sun, 15 Dec 2002 21:00:28 -0800 Thanks for the introduction, John, that is very clear. I am interested in the math: Do the pixels (and megapixels) refer to how many pixels cover the entire image when the photo is taken? So that if the photo is NOT compressed by the camera into JPEG format, each image one took would contain the maximum number of pixels that the camera is rated for (or at)? Therefore in theory, each non-compressed image would contain 3.4 megapixels (for a camera rated at 3.4 megapixels)? And, if the camera compresses the image into JPEG format, is there some rule of thumb we can use to calculate how many pixels would be left (how many pixels would comprise the JPEG image) after compression? My understanding of JPEG is that this compression leaves out all the adjacent same-color dots but one, so for every line of dots on an image (like this .................) the JPEG compression would replace this line with one 'dot' if all these dots are the same color. My guess would be that JPEG might compress a raw image down to about 15% of the original - only a crude guess. Thanks. More math questions later. Cathy Craig President PBS Maritime zone 9b > I have always used Nikon digital cameras, either a Coolpix 950 or now a > Coolpix 995. The former offered 2 million pixel (mega pixel) resolution, > the latter 3.4. > From ???@??? Mon Dec 16 17:47:30 2002 Message-Id: From: IntarsiaCo@aol.com Subject: TOW - Digital Photography of Plants and subsequent manipulation of images... Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2002 08:06:01 EST Hi John and Arnold: In PS, I have found that using the Curves tool (Images;Adjustments;Curves) is an easy way to do minor color balance adjustments that eliminate the unwanted color casts. Mark Mazer Intarsia Ltd. Gaylordsville, CT 06755-0142 www.therapyshapes.com USDA Zone 5 Giant Schnauzer Rescue From ???@??? Mon Dec 16 17:47:30 2002 Message-Id: From: Lauw de Jager Subject: TOW - Digital Photography of Plants and subsequent manipulationof images for printing, the web etc. Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2002 21:12:31 +0100 John Lonsdale a *crit : > I now use a digital camera to meet all my photography needs, prints, slides > and web images. John, how do you produce slides from digital images? > I have two programs which are indispensable - one to manage my image > database, and one to > manipulate the images into their final form. The former is called > ThumbsPlus > One of the prime uses I make of it is to batch rename all my > images - saves typing these in for every one. This program also has a > preview feature - you can look at large previews of each file instantly by > clicking on the thumbnail. > > After naming, some manipulation is always going to be necessary to get the > finished product and for this I use Adobe Photoshop. > John, Many thanks for leading this particular interesting discussion. So far it becoming quite clear to me. As I understand the two progams Thumbsplus and Photoshop are intended to receive, name and manupilate the images. However, I would like some help with how to store, manage the various images. First I thought to stock them in my current database which manages the species for the nursery. But that make makes too whealdy to work with. Would it be possible to use a separate database such as File maker of the Microsoft Acces for storing and organising the images ( each image accompanied with information such as name, date, place taken or origin and the use made of it etc). As all scans and digital images are stored at a high resolution , which demands high capacity storage. I envisage to purchase a a high capacity hard disc inwhich to unload all images photo CD and photo files in the computer. Any ideas and help woud be much appreciated Kind regards Lauw de Jager BULB'ARGENCE, 30300 Fourques, France Région: Provence/Camargue, (Climat zone 9a Mediterranean) Site: http://www.bulbargence.com/ "GUIDE POUR BULBES MÉDITERRANÉENS": 116 pages, 400 photos, prix 10 E LE CATALOGUE D'HIVER (WINTERCATALOG) sera disponible en janvier; vous pouvez commander par le site maintenant pour un envoi, à partir de maintenant jusqu'à fin mars. (En fleurs actuellement à l'extérieur: Cyclamen pseudibericum, Dahlia imperialis, Gladiolus dalenii, Crocus, Oxalis bowiei, versicolor, masoniorum, Nerine undulata, bowdeni 'Pink Triumph', Narcissus tazetta 'Paperwhite', Chinese sacred lily, Double, Moraea polystachya, Lachenalia bulbifera) - From ???@??? Mon Dec 16 17:47:30 2002 Message-Id: From: John Lonsdale Subject: TOW - Digital Photography of Plants and subsequent manipulationof images for printing, the web etc. Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2002 16:05:16 -0500 ThumbsPlus is effectively your image database which allows you to manage all your images. You can do everything you mention above within ThumbsPlus. Just set up a suitable series of directories on your hard drive within which to store the images in an easily retrievable way. > In addition to the 40 Gb boot drive which holds my operating system (XP Pro), I have a second internal Maxtor 120Gb hard drive on which I store all my images and install my programs. I also have 2 external USB 2.0 Maxtor 40Gb hard drives which I use as back-ups. Being totally paranoid about losing thousands of images, I also back-up my data to my daughter's PC over a wireless network. Unless we are hit directly by a neutron bomb, one or other of my backups should survive ! J. Dr John T Lonsdale 407 Edgewood Drive, Exton, Pennsylvania 19341, USA Phone: 610 594 9232 Fax: 801 327 1266 Visit "Edgewood" - The Lonsdale Garden at http://www.johnlonsdale.net Zone 6b From ???@??? Mon Dec 16 17:47:30 2002 Message-Id: From: "J.E. Shields" Subject: Seeds of Haemanthus hybrid Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2002 19:56:10 -0500 I am harvesting the ripe berried from my cross in September of Haemanthus albiflos X Haemanthus humilis hirsutus. There are more seeds being produced than I need for my own use, so I am offering the extras for sale. Please consult my Seed sales web pages at URL = http://www.shieldsgardens.com/Seeds/HaemanthusSeeds.html I have no idea what the seedlings will turn out to be like! Both parents are of small to modest stature, the flowers are white paintbrush type. The leaves of the albiflos I am using are mostly smooth and hairless, while the hirsutus leaves are oval and hairy. The primary hybrids between two species in many genera are simply averages between the traits of the two species used. On the other hand, there is an outside chance of hybrid vigor producing some sort of giant Haemanthus (I don't really expect that!) regards, Jim Shields ************************************************* Jim Shields USDA Zone 5 Shields Gardens, Ltd. P.O. Box 92 WWW: http://www.shieldsgardens.com/ Westfield, Indiana 46074, USA Tel. +1-317-896-3925 Member of INTERNATIONAL CLIVIA CO-OP From ???@??? Mon Dec 16 18:04:04 2002 Message-Id: From: John Lonsdale Subject: TOW - Digital Photography of Plants and subsequent manipulation of images for printing, the web etc. Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2002 20:54:36 -0500 Cathy, Yes, the pixels refer to the pixels dimensions of the image, e.g. 640 x 480, 1600 x 1200 etc. With most cameras you can select from multiple pixel dimensions for the capture of your original images. For example I use 2048 x 1536, to gibe me 3.4 megapixels, or so. The pixel dimensions have nothing to do with compression. The latter is a way of driving down the file size (and quality) whilst maintaining the pixel dimensions. Thus I can save my original 2048 x 1536 image with whatever compression I want in the jpg format, to end up with a variety of file sizes proportional to the compression. You can also independently change both the resolution (in pixels per inch or dots per inch, dpi) and the pixel dimensions of an image, for example to get an original down to the 640 x 480 format I use for web work with a resolution of 72 dpi. In this case PS resamples the pixels and cuts out a number to bring the dimensions down to the value I've chosen. Compression, pixel dimensions and resolution are completely different things but in combination determine the quality and file size of your final image. In going from the camera to the web I reduce both the file size by compression and the pixel dimensions by resizing. A jpg is just a file format made by lossy compression - it can be as much or as little compressed as you choose, depending upon your needs. J. PS. And how about comments from someone other than me - PLEASE ! Dr John T Lonsdale 407 Edgewood Drive, Exton, Pennsylvania 19341, USA Phone: 610 594 9232 Fax: 801 327 1266 Visit "Edgewood" - The Lonsdale Garden at http://www.johnlonsdale.net Zone 6b From ???@??? Mon Dec 16 18:24:22 2002 Message-Id: From: "Davd Fenwick" (by way of Mary Sue Ittner ) Subject: TOTW Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2002 18:21:46 -0800 Hi Lauw and all, Re. Storage of images. Here I simply use Windows Explorer to make folders and sub-folders and I do this for every genera. I've found it the easiest and simplest way of finding pictures quickly and easily. e.g. Folder - South African Bulbs sub-folder - genus sub-folder - species sub-folder - hybrid To view the files I use two programs. Firstly a program called ACDSee which allows me to view, copy and move thumbnails in respective folders and sub-folders. However this is only good for images up to 250Kb because of the time it takes the pics to load. For larger files I use a program called Exif Viewer (thumbnail browser), this comes with the new Fuji digital cameras and it is very good at viewing thumbnails of much larger camera images. It comes with another program called DP Editor which is the viewer. Regarding manipulation I find Paint Shop Pro 4 ideal and does most things the larger programs do. I have also found that if you stick with one and learn how to use it, it's much better than trying to use several to no great effect. All these programs are very small and don't take a lot of room up on the drive, hence more room for pics. Here I've partitioned my hard drive so that I can store a large volume of pictures on the D partition. Then when windows has a problem (as it usually does) I can then format the C drive, set up Windows, and all my pics and work are still there. Best Wishes, Dave David Fenwick NCCPG National Collection of Crocosmia with Chasmanthe and Tulbaghia The African Garden 96 Wasdale Gardens Estover Plymouth Devon England PL6 8TW Website: www.theafricangarden.com From ???@??? Mon Dec 16 20:09:00 2002 Message-Id: From: "Mary Wise" Subject: TOW - Digital Photography of Plants and subsequent manipulation of images for printing, the web etc. Date: Tue, 17 Dec 2002 11:44:20 +0800 This question is not about actual digital photography but more a request for help on deciding which camera would be the best to buy. I have made the decision to upgrade my very humble little Sony Mavica FD 73 which has served me very well but just isnt up to what I require / never was really, but was what I could afford at the time. I am tossing up between the NikonCoolpix 5700 and the Sony DSCF 717. As for me, it is a very major purchase I want to be sure this time of getting the very best for my money. Can anyone give me advice on the way to go please. TIA From ???@??? Mon Dec 16 21:28:59 2002 Message-Id: From: Mary Sue Ittner Subject: Audrey Cain's web site, was seed-grown calochortus pictures Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2002 20:44:17 -0800 Dear All, We just got our power back on a few hours ago. There have been a series of wet windy storms and we have been without power for most of the time since Saturday morning. Obviously our server has a generator as I see messages have been coming and going in the meantime. Audrey Cain is part of our list and I enjoy her web page as well. She obviously is very successful growing quite a lot of things and I like that she lists her sources and how long it takes for her to grow things from seed to flower. Audrey, if you aren't too busy would you share with the group a little bit about conditions where you live and your methods that obviously are successful. I am sure that everyone would be very interested. Mary Sue PBS Administrator From ???@??? Tue Dec 17 07:38:42 2002 Message-Id: From: Mark Wilcox Subject: TOW - Digital Photography of Plants and subsequent manipulation of images for printing, the web etc. Date: Tue, 17 Dec 2002 02:55:34 -0800 (PST) Mary, Yours is a question that comes up often. My suggestion is to take a look at the following site: http://www.megapixel.net/ While it's very difficult for us to keep up on the latest in digital cameras, they do just that on this site, which is free to people like you who are trying to compare cameras they've never used before in order to make a decision on what to purchase. Their reviews are quite complete, and multi-page. They're not afraid to point out negative aspects. There's be a drop down box that you use to move to the various pages in each review, which takes getting used to. In 2000 I used this site to learn more about various cameras, which eventually resulted in my decision to get the Olympus C2500-L, which I haven't regretted. Looking forward to seeing pictures from your new camera, Mark --- Mary Wise wrote: > This question is not about actual digital photography but more a > request for > help on deciding which camera would be the best to buy. From ???@??? Tue Dec 17 16:06:39 2002 Message-Id: From: "anthony goode" Subject: TOW Digital Photography Date: Tue, 17 Dec 2002 23:09:13 -0000 as little compressed as you choose, depending upon your needs. J. PS. And how about comments from someone other than me - PLEASE ! Dr John T Lonsdale ... OK John, you've roused me into having my say. However you should not be surprised that we hesitate to chip in when your introduction and subsequent comments amount to a masterclass - and don't bother to argue that point, we've all seen the evidence of your prowess! For everyone else, I'm afraid that a lot of this will sound familiar as I have been a convert to the 'Lonsdale Method' for a couple of years now. (Consider this a testimony in support of Johns comments.) I had been looking into purchasing a slide scanner to enable me to convert some of my slides into digital files for web use. John soon convinced me that a digital camera would be an easier, cheaper and more successful option. His experience with the Coolpix 950 and comparison with many other web images of plants convinced me to purchase that Nikon camera. As you know J has progressed along with the Nikon range, I, however am still using my 950 (they can still be obtained quite cheaply second hand in the UK) and remain happy with theresults. I have recently had some slides made by EDI and the results are superb, close ups far better than I can get with my old SLR camera. I have considered buying a newer and more sophisticated SLR camera but the expense of camera and lenses, especially a good macro lens, has deterred me. Now I can do everything that I want digitally at a much reduced cost. $1.95 (=£1.25) per slide may seem expensive but you get 100% perfect shots - no more duds, and of corse the same applies to prints. EDI offer adigital print service at $0.49 for a 6"x4" print which compares OK with £0.39 from Kodak in the UK and £0.30 from Nikon in the UK. (Nikon have a sliding scale, prints get cheaper the more you order.) There are still colour issues, just as with conventional 35mm film. What you see on the screen may not quite match the original or what you get on a print. If you have your own printer you have more control and of course the ability to manipulate the images gives you ultmate control. You can even bring the plant (or a sample) indoors to compare with the screen image! My camera came with Photoshop LE and Fotostation as part of the deal. This cut down version of PS can be purchased seperately for around 20% the price of the full version. I find it more than adequate although it does not have the batch facility that J mentions. Fotostation does a similar job to Thumbs Plus, allowing me to file my images in various folders on my hard drive, Cd or Zip disc, giving me thumbnail images as a preview when I open the chosen folder. I can alter the display to show from 2 to 104 thumbnails at once, a useful feature. (At a guess Thumbs is a more powerful tool - J knows his stuff.) I have chosen to purchase a CD writer (would opt for one built in as part of the package if I were buying a new PC) for back up. I keep a set of back-up CDs at my Mother-in-Laws just in case the worst should happen - I wonder where J keeps his external hard drives?!! I do find that the best pictures are taken in bright light, the Coolpix 950 does not give such good results in very dull conditions. 2 years and 7000 images down the road (half have beeen discarded as no good ... all those duds at no extra cost) I would not go back. I'll keep my SLR for plant holidays, using it alongside the digital for a while but in the long term I can see it being discarded. Hope this helps Tony Goode. Norwich UK From ???@??? Tue Dec 17 16:06:39 2002 Message-Id: From: "Mary Wise" Subject: TOW - Digital Photography of Plants and subsequent manipulation of images for printing, the web etc. Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2002 08:07:06 +0800 Thanks so much for the url. Mark I sat up until the wee small hours going through it. Now I am totaly confused LOL, no not really just kidding it is a great help in my decision but of course I guess the best way is to try various cameras to see which I can best cope with. it is far too hot just now to be travelling up to the city so will perhaps have to wait until later in the New Year when the weather gats a little more civilised. Thanks again. From ???@??? Tue Dec 17 18:22:08 2002 Message-Id: From: Mark Wilcox Subject: TOW - Digital Photography of Plants and subsequent manipulation of images for printing, the web etc. Date: Tue, 17 Dec 2002 20:42:49 -0500 Well, OK, John... I just wanted to point out that buying Photoshop isn't necessary to be able to do satisfactory editing of digital pictures. Is the learning curve really as steep as people say with regard to that software? Most cameras include editing software as part of the package. However, they may offer a bit less in the way of features and versatility than some users would like to have. I'm very happy with Paint Shop Pro for the IBM, which sells for under $100 in the USA. The program actually does more than I need it to do. Every picture I post to any images list was edited with it. Mark Wilcox Washington, DC From ???@??? Tue Dec 17 18:22:08 2002 Message-Id: From: "Cathy Craig" Subject: TOW Digital Photography Date: Tue, 17 Dec 2002 17:48:47 -0800 Can John L. or Tony explain about the lenses? I had a Cannon A5 and now have an Olympus Camedia D-360L. My main gripe about the A5, and the D-360L also to some extent, is that the lense that comes on the camera is in my opinion equal to a non-digital SLR lense = 35mm which amounts to a wide angle lense. This is very annoying as I have to clear the background of junk for 5 yards in every direction or the lense picks it up as well as the plant I am photographing. It also collects way too much light and on both cameras I have to keep turning off the flash, even at night. Are the lenses on cameras different now? It would be nice if they had lenses = 50 mm and not 35mm. Cathy Craig President PBS Maritime zone 9b >Tony Goode wrote: > I do find that the best pictures are taken in bright light, the > Coolpix 950 does not give such good results in very dull conditions. From ???@??? Tue Dec 17 21:18:24 2002 Message-Id: From: Antennaria@aol.com Subject: Digital Photography of Plants and subsequent manipulation Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2002 00:10:36 EST This is a most interesting subject. John Lonsdale has done a terrific job of thoroughly "covering the bases" and sharing lots of useful information. I'm impressed both by the detailed scope of coverage, and by the description of his personal computer management and backup strategies that far surpass my hack-job attempts at organization (it's certainly ad hoc chaos here). For those that operate more by the seat of their pants, I have a few suggestions and opinions: >The cards that come with the >cameras are woefully short of capacity. True enough, the memory cards that ship with cameras are mere tokens. You must always separataly purchase higher capacity flash cards that hold 60 MB or more. With the larger capacity cards, you can easily take an unreasonable quantity of photos! ;-) >You need to get the images from the >camera to the computer and you can do >this directly or indirectly. I have never >even installed the software that comes >with the cameras, preferring to use a flash >card reader (which acts as a mini-hard drive) >to download images straight to my PC, into >a directory kept for that purpose. It should be noted that printers have come a long way, and now come predisposed ready to deal with digital camera flash cards as an industry standard. When you purchase a printer these days, they are remarkably cheap. I bought a color HP Photosmart 1115 last year for less than $200, and as with most printers today it comes with support for digital photos, including built-in slots/readers for flash cards including the newer ultra-thin cards, buttons on the printer to automatically download the photos from the card, and software bundles such as ACDsee and Photo Imaging software. So there's little need to buy a separate flash-card reader to download digital pics... just buy a new printer and it's all built-in. >After naming, some manipulation is always >going to be necessary to get the finished >product and for this I use Adobe Photoshop. >The latest full version is very expensive ($700) >but there are much cheaper slimmed down >versions available which do most of what you need. I agree with Dave Fenwick that Paint Shop Pro is an excellent solution. At work I have Photoshop, Photoshop Elements (lite version), Paint Shop Pro, and other graphics software. I like Paint Shop Pro best. I think that inexperienced graphics-software users will do very well with the VERY affordable yet undeniably powerful Paint Shop Pro (about $70) versus Photoshop (+ $700). Photoshop is tremendous overkill for some users who could suffice with a simpler program like Paint Shop Pro. Unless you're a grahics pro, or have the dollars, Photoshop is like having a sledge-hammer to trim a hang-nail. Paint Shop Pro is eassier and more "user friendly", yet surprisingly powerful and comparable. For imaging professionals however, or for very specific Photoshop capabilities, Photoshop is the way to go. I'm not a pro yet, so I'm quite satified with Paint Shop Pro. >Images for the web are surprisingly low resolution >(72 dpi) whereas to get good prints of a reasonable >size you need higher resolution images (300dpi). >For printing I use an Epson Stylus Photo 1280 ink >jet printer - and get results which are just outstanding. Regarding JPG file format (the 72 dpi JPG format is certainly universal for the web), it should be noted that 20%-25% compression is typical. Compression ratios higher than that usually results in visual image degradation. Images in JPG format with compression suitable for web viewing, are completely non-suitable for printing purposes. JPG files with compression print poorly, the compression resulting in noticeable image distortion and "artifacts". For printing purposes, images should be saved in TIF format or JPG format WITHOUT compression. Regarding time of day to take digital photos, digital cameras do a really fine job as compared to single lens reflex cameras. Under very low light conditions, digital cameras are more forgiving and deliver better quality photos than one might expect. As someone who has a 1-1/2 hour commute each way to work, I almost always end up photographing early morning or late afternoon/early evening when light is low (drat). Yet in full sunlight, digital cameras do better than SLR cameras at mitigating strong shadows and contrast, and yeild consistently better results. With digital cameras, John is most defintely correct, photos taken in full sunlight are preferred. The only frustration I've experienced with digital cameras, and it's a major frustration, has to do with the camera itself. I borrow from a fleet of digital cameras we have at work, the cameras selected to service our Architects and Engineers that need to take longer-distance jobsite photos. The cameras we purchased are excellent in general, yet terrible for close up macro photography. For photographing narrow, thin plants such as Alliums (my main area of interest), general digital cameras are extremely difficult and frustrating because the automatic focus looks beyond the narrow target and blurs the image. Attempts to manually correct the focus and depth of field are difficult and unsatisfactory at best. One apparently needs a digital camera specifically designed for close-up macro photography such as the Nikon Coolpix camera. It's on the horizon for me... I must buy my own camera with macro photography capabilities in the new year. Happy Holidays all! Mark McDonough Pepperell, Massachusetts, United States antennaria@aol.com "New England" USDA Zone 5 Received: from psmtp.com (exprod5mx18.postini.com [64.75.1.158]) by mail.mcn.org (8.12.6/8.12.6) with SMTP id gBI5Krqp012473; Tue, 17 Dec 2002 21:20:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from source ([204.189.12.62]) by exprod5mx18.postini.com ([64.75.1.245]) with SMTP; Tue, 17 Dec 2002 21:20:52 PST Received: from flash.net by listserv.mcn.org with SMTP; Tue, 17 Dec 2002 21:19:33 -0800 User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.4 Date: Tue, 17 Dec 2002 21:19:39 -0800 Subject: Re: TOW Digital Photography From: Douglas Westfall To: "Pacific Bulb Society" Message-ID: In-Reply-To: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Reply-To: "Pacific Bulb Society" Sender: Precedence: Bulk X-pstn-levels: (C:73.9267 M:98.2169 P:95.9108 S:11.1259 ) X-UIDL: +~e!!Cf'#!FaV!!EGZ!! > It also collects way too much light and on both cameras I have to keep > turning off the flash, even at night. Cathy, Check your manual. That problem can be avoided. Doug From ???@??? Wed Dec 18 08:31:40 2002 Message-Id: From: John Lonsdale Subject: Digital Photography of Plants and subsequent manipulation Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2002 08:55:12 -0500 Many thanks to all of you who have responded to my plea and jumped into the discussion with some very valuable advice and comments. I would agree wholeheartedly with those who say Photoshop is overkill for 99.9% of us interested in plant digital photography, myself included. I really do only scratch the surface, although purchase on Saturday of the book 'Photoshop for Dummies' should help me go deeper. For example, I haven't done it yet but shall start using it do get rid of annoying labels in images that I didn't have time to physically remove or never noticed when shooting. I have Photoshop for reasons other than because I have the dollars or am a photo editing pro - I was the lucky recipient of a gift of it (legally and licensed of course !). I would be in big trouble though without the batch process facility as I use this to automate every process - buy a program with this if you can. One of the huge advantages of digital photography that mark M brought out should be emphasized. You can shoot the equivalent of a roll of slide film very quickly on each and every subject to get that one image that you can use for slides, web and print - at effectively no cost in time or money, once you've made the original capital outlay. With respect to printers that have flash card slots, or readers, built in. I advised a friend a few weeks ago who wanted a good new printer not to go this route simply because a lot of extra dollars have gone into non-print related features that I'm unsure of the utility of. In addition to the card reader there are a variety of buttons and an LCD screen. You always need to do something to the image before printing, hence my recommendation to go down the separate card reader route. Incidentally, on that note, SanDisk have now just brought out a reader than reads 6 different cards, flash, secure digital etc) and is USB2.0 format - i.e. 40 times faster than standard USB - all for $45. To my mind this is the best way to go - and your photo transfer from camera to computer is lightning fast and independent of other hardware and/or software. Mark - does the card reader on a printer allow transfer to the computer or just to the printer ? Mark M also brought up TIF vs. JPG choices for saving images and is quite right that an uncompressed TIF file is higher quality than a high quality JPG. There is an issue though with taking all your images in TIF format, as I found out ! If I set my 995 to capture 2048 x 1536 TIF files it takes over 20s to save the image to the flash card memory, and I use a SanDisk Ultra card which does this 2-3 times faster than a standard flash card. This is unbelievably frustrating ! You also end up with a file that is 9Mb in size so it takes longer to move around. I did a comparison between TIF and the best JPG format offered, which has minimal compression, and to all intents and purposes the results are indistinguishable until the image is blown up to huge proportions. I concluded that for my needs the high quality JPG worked best because the quality was still superb, I could capture the image in 2 seconds and the file was only 1-2Mb in size. With respect to compression - the images you see on my web site have been compressed to 40% of their original quality. I concur wholly with Mark and Tony's comments on the quality and utility of the Nikon Coolpix 99x range for close-up macro photography. It can still be frustrating occasionally to capture very thin subjects close up by you can get there by fooling the camera. A trick I use is to shove the lends right up against the subject (too close), so that it 'realizes' that it is looking at something really close-up, then back off whilst the autofocus is seeking the focus. This usually results in it finding the subject rather than the background ! This is wonderful topic and I say again - please keep the comments flowing ! J. PS. For those looking for that last stocking filler (Mark - you wife hinted to me that she'd love a digital camera that she would let you use occasionally) I looked at prices on the web last night and the Coolpix 995 can be had for around $420. Dr John T Lonsdale 407 Edgewood Drive, Exton, Pennsylvania 19341, USA Phone 610 594 9232 Fax 801 327 1266 Visit "Edgewood" - The Lonsdale Garden at http//www.johnlonsdale.net Zone 6b From ???@??? Wed Dec 18 09:13:47 2002 Message-Id: From: Jennifer Hildebrand Subject: 2 books - Clivias and Color Encyclopedia of Cape Bulbs Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2002 07:51:41 -0800 (PST) Hi everyone, I'm helping Cathy Craig put together the group order for anyone interested in obtaining either The Color Encyclopedia of Cape Bulbs by John Manning, Peter Goldblatt, and Dee Snijman or Clivias by Harold Koopowitz. Several of you have already sent Cathy your order, but this is a last chance for anyone who hasn't yet placed an order. The Color Encyclopedia of Cape Bulbs Synopsis: The Cape Region, at the southern tip of Africa, is easily among the richest centers for bulbous plants and probably the most famous. Nearly 1200 species of bulbous plants find their home there and almost three-quarters ofthemoccur nowhere else. This first complete account of all the bulbous plants of the Cape Floral Region is an essential aid to the identification of all species presently in cultivation as well as the many others that are potentially valuable horticultural subjects. The book is richly illustrated with high-quality color photographs of more than half the species of Cape bulbs, many of which have never before been illustrated. 0-88192-547-0, 486 pp, 611 color photos, 2 color maps, 2 tables, 8 1/2 x 11", hardcover In the words of one of our leading experts on cape bulbs: "Everyone whogrows Cape Bulbs seriously will want to have it. "We are offering it to anyone interested at 15% OFF with any profit realized going to the Pacific Bulb Society for member benefits. This will help to pay for our SPRING MEETING, SLIDE PRESENTATION, AND GARDEN TOUR in Seattlethis coming May of 2003 (to which anyone interested is also invited). Cost with discount, plus shipping, packing materials, tax is $60. Books will all be shipped to you by media mail. You may request Priority Mail shipping at extra cost if you like. Clivias Synopsis: "Clivias" 384 pages, 118 color photos, 2 keys: Clivias are classed amongthe most desirable of all connoisseur plants, offering not only spectacular flowers but also interesting variations in both leaf variegation and plant form. Despite their reputation as specialist plants, however, clivias are surprisingly easy to grow and tolerant of abuse. Koopowitz has written a delightful book, the first to detail the members of the genus Clivia. Beginning with the story of their discovery, he moves on to issues of cultivation, hybridization, and propagation. The bulk of the book is a profusely illustrated examination of the diversity of clivia variation, from the familiar orange and red flowers to the famous yellow forms and the pastel forms that are creating so much excitement today. Cost is $34.95, any profits realized to go to PBS for our member benefits. I anticipate shipping to be not more than $6 to the furthest US zone (back east) by Priority Mail. Anyone who wants to take advantage of this group order should email me ASAP PRIVATELY (theotherjen8@yahoo.com) so that Cathy can get the order in and get the books to you in time for them to make wonderful Christmas gifts! Happy holidays, Jennifer From ???@??? Wed Dec 18 09:13:47 2002 Message-Id: From: John Lonsdale Subject: Digital Photography of Plants and subsequent manipulation Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2002 11:50:13 -0500 I thought I'd take a couple of minutes to expand on something that came up in a couple of recent postings on the TOW - namely backing up files. It is impossible to over-emphasize the importance of this, especially in the case of plant photographs or other images which may well be impossible to replace. As I mentioned, I do this by backing up to hard drives which are located separately from my main boot hard drive - I favor this because it is dynamic and your backups always mirror your main collections. Tony G mentioned backing up to CD - this is also an excellent suggestion and I do keep a single copy of all my originals in this format - they are never used but are there should total disaster strike. I can't think of a better guardian than the Mother-in-Law, just make sure you look after her daughter ! Backing up can be tedious but I use a small program called FileBackPC to do this automatically. It is available from http://www.fileback-PC.com. It is simple to use, with either an 'expert' or a 'wizard' interface - the latter makes things very easy. There are both synchronization and full back up modes available, the latter allowing you to keep multiple file versions. I use synchronization to keep a real-time copy of my data files, updated automatically upon the program detecting any changes to the files under its supervision. The back-up mode is scheduled to do its stuff overnight - thus if I delete a file which is also immediately deleted from my synchronized back up, I know there is an untouched version safe in the full back up location. This sounds extreme but has come to my rescue many times. One last useful utility I use very infrequently but which I wouldn't be without is an 'Undelete' program. There are several flavors available and they are all cheap. Their purpose is to undelete files which have been deleted from all your directories and appear to be totally gone and destroyed, at least as far as your operating system and programs are concerned. The reality is that they haven't gone (unless you run something like Evidence Eliminator), they are there but the tags that identify them to your programs are gone. Using an undelete program will allow you to restore them, as if by magic. A couple of weeks ago we got all our daughters in the same place at the same time and I took some images for our Christmas cards. When I came to process them and send one off (to EDI) they were nowhere to be seen - I must have deleted them accidentally and enough time had passed for the back up utility to remove all traces of them. I should have paid extra for the version that 'knows' you didn't really mean to do that ! Anyway, they were gone but running 'Undelete' found them and restored them in a jiffy - and saved me from a fate worse than death. J. Dr John T Lonsdale 407 Edgewood Drive, Exton, Pennsylvania 19341, USA Phone: 610 594 9232 Fax: 801 327 1266 Visit "Edgewood" - The Lonsdale Garden at http://www.johnlonsdale.net Zone 6b From ???@??? Wed Dec 18 10:36:37 2002 Message-Id: From: Diane Whitehead Subject: Digital Photography - Sony CD? Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2002 10:15:40 -0800 I waited to buy a digital camera until they came out with rechargeable batteries and lots of storage. This has now happened, so I've been reading lots of reviews. The Sony cameras that record on re-writeable small CDs interest me. The extra time it takes to record on the CD doesn't worry me, as flowers wait. It might be frustrating for taking pictures of living creatures, like the butterflies I patiently, and usually unsuccessfully, stalk. They are usually gone before I can take the first picture, let alone a second one. I'm wondering about their macro capability, though. Most of the close-ups I admire - every stamen in crisp focus - have been taken with a Nikon. Diane Whitehead Canada From ???@??? Wed Dec 18 13:27:31 2002 Message-Id: From: Elizabeth Waterman Subject: Digital Photography of Plants and subsequent manipulation Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2002 11:57:15 -0800 I use a far less sophisticated approach with a very inexpensive point and shoot type digital camera that is always in my pocket. I/O Magic 500(still available for less than$50 with software) takes 1024 x 768 or 1280 x 960 res.and a macro at about 8 inches. I use Irfanview (a free graphics program to resize for sending modest size emails). The quality will never compare with the coolpix 950 but it's small and very useful. Also I'm afraid of all the bells and whistles on a serious camera and worried about its durability. I've dropped mine accidentally more than once and it still works. Another road to take is the use of a scanner to take "photos". Here is a URL with the tecnique: http://www.manntaylor.com/scan.html One of my friends tried it and it's remarkable. Liz Waterman From ???@??? Thu Dec 19 15:22:56 2002 Message-Id: From: "J.E. Shields" Subject: New bulb papers in BOTHALIA Date: Thu, 19 Dec 2002 18:13:45 -0500 Hi all, The October 2002 issue of BOTHALIA (vol. 32, no. 2) just arrived here. There are three articles of interest to bulbophiles. The lead paper is a revision of the genus Daubenya by John Manning and A.M. van der Merwe. There is a color photo and a black and white line drawing of each of the eight species now assigned on the basis of DNA analysis to this genus: DD. comata, namaquensis, marginata, zeyheri, alba, capensis, stylosa, and aurea. All are winter-growing plants from the western edge of the central plateau of southern Africa. There is also a brief but enlightening discussion of the higher taxonomy of the Hyacinthaceae fo the world. J.C. Manning and A.M. van der Merwe, "Systematics of the genus _Daubenya_ (Hyacinthaceae: Massonieae)." BOTHALIA 32:2, pp. 133-150 (October 2002). A new species of Lachenalia is described in this issue: L. valeriae from Namaqualand. Its closest relatives are listed as LL. framesii and carnosa. It is found in the Succulent Karoo biome in northwestern Namaqualand. G.D. Duncan and T.J. Edwards, "Hyacinthaceae--Massonieae. A new species of _Lachenalia_ from Namaqualand, South Africa." BOTHALIA 32:2, pp. 190-192 (October 2002). Finally, the species Cyrtanthus smithae is clarified and a Lectotype (in this case, a watercolored drawing from 1837) is defined. J.P. Rourke, "Amaryllidaceae. The typification of _Cyrtanthus smithiae_ Watt ex Harv." BOTHALIA 32:2, pp. 197-199 (October 2002). To subscribe to BOTHALIA or order a copy of this issue, contact: NBI Bookshop Private Bag X101 Pretoria 0001 REPUBLIC OF SOUTH AFRICA Subscriptions to BOTHALIA are US$32 for one year, which includes two issues of the journal. Jim Shields in central Indiana ************************************************* Jim Shields USDA Zone 5 Shields Gardens, Ltd. P.O. Box 92 WWW: http://www.shieldsgardens.com/ Westfield, Indiana 46074, USA Tel. +1-317-896-3925 Member of INTERNATIONAL CLIVIA CO-OP From ???@??? Thu Dec 19 19:06:31 2002 Message-Id: From: Jennifer Hildebrand Subject: Peach Clivia miniata seedlings Date: Thu, 19 Dec 2002 18:10:07 -0800 (PST) Hi everyone, My import permit came in today - the US government has decided I am worthy of receiving plants through the mail! That means that the group order will go through very soon now. For those of you who have already discussed an order with me, I'll be in contact directly soon. If you gave me an estimated order - like 10-20 seedlings - please contact me privately at theotherjen8@yahoo.com with a more specific number. If anyone missed the initial post and wants to get in on this group order, there's still time if you email me quickly. Here's the info from Rudo Lotter about the seedlings: Hallo, this year I pollinated all my best yellow miniatas with recessivepeach miniatas, for those of you who do not know, the recessive peachmutation or Chubb's Peach is dominant over group 1 yellow, although a smallpercentage of yellows can be expected due to selfpolination. The idea was tosupply these seed to a client but the deal fell through and I was forced to plant all the seed, some 8000 seedlings.These seedlings are now at the 1-2 leaf stage, and because I do not have the space to race all of them I have to sell as many as possible. Rudo set the price at about $5.40 per seedling (after currency exchange). We'll all split the phyto (another $5.40) and the shipping. Let me know if you're interested! Jennifer From ???@??? Thu Dec 19 20:36:03 2002 Message-Id: From: Antennaria@aol.com Subject: Digital Photography of Plants and subsequent manipulation Date: Thu, 19 Dec 2002 23:13:23 EST "John Lonsdale" writes: >With respect to printers that have flash card >slots, or readers, built in. I advised a friend a >few weeks ago who wanted a good new printer >not to go this route simply because a lot of >extra dollars have gone into non-print related >features that I'm unsure of the utility of. >Mark - does the card reader on a printer allow >transfer to the computer or just to the printer? Hello John and PBS'rs, in answer to the issue of built-in flash card readers on printers these days, I assure your that they are quite effective. It is true that such features are marketed towards computer "newbies" who know nothing about how to handle images from a digital camera, but in fact, the built-in flash card readers and adjunct software behaves exactly as a stand-alone card reader device. The communication is flexible and bi-directional. Your options are the following: 1. Insert the digital camera flash card into the printer, and then use goofy options and buttons on the printer to send the pictures directly to the printer. This is for people who are completely new to computing. Needless to say, this feature is never used here, nor by anyone even slightly familiar with the technology. 2. Insert the digital camera flash card into the printer, then use Windows Explorer. The HP printer-driver software automatically installs and maps a drive-letter to the flash card slots (becomes my F: drive on my computer). Preview, copy-&-paste, or delete images from the flash card directly from the computer, just as you would from any media. 3. Insert the digital camera flash card into the printer, then use the buttons on the printer to select all images, press the "Save" button on the face of the printer, and it launches HP software on the computer, asking where you want to download the photos on your hard drive! How convenient! I once used option #2 all the time, now I use this even faster option to quickly have the printer/flash-card communicate and download to my computer's hard drive. The printer can connect to the PC via the USB port or the Parallel port, the USB port obviously faster than the much slower Parallel port option. But John is right, it's a small price (about $45) for a state-of-the-art card reader that's up to 40 times faster than a standard USB device, certainly "short dollars" and adviseable. For me, the built-in capabilities in the inexpensive printer was the best "perk" I've seen in recent years of purchasing equipment, and I'll gratefully tolerate the slower download speed for the time being. >Mark M also brought up TIF vs. JPG choices for >saving images and is quite right that an >uncompressed TIF file is higher quality than a high >quality JPG. I didn't mean to imply using high resolution TIFF format regularly when taking pictures. John correctly points out the downsides: large format size and slow disk-write speed. The middle ground is to use best quality JPG format. When you edit and prep the images for the web, certainly turn on a reasonable file compression to make the images load quickly, finding the right balance of compression without sacrificing image quality... my threshold is 30% compression afterwhich I sense image degradation. However, if you need to print images, either use TIFFs, or use JPG files without compression (maximum quality JPG). A JPG image with 30% compression is guaranteed to print with odd pixel distortions and "artifacts", but the same file prints adequately when compression is turned off or set to a minimum, and resaved to a printable alternative JPG file. "Elizabeth Waterman" >I use Irfanview (a free graphics program to resize >for sending modest size emails). Oh, I'm glad you brought that up. Yes indeed, Irfanview is an excellent, very speedy, feature-rich, well-implemented shareware program (nominal cost for business use, about $25), and comes highly recommended!!! It's a capable tool for cataloging images as well. The only thing I don't like about it is it's odd name. Mark McDonough Pepperell, Massachusetts, United States antennaria@aol.com "New England" USDA Zone 5 ============================================== >> web site under construction - http://www.PlantBuzz.com From ???@??? Fri Dec 20 20:36:03 2002 Message-Id: From: "Mums Mail" Subject: Audrey Cain's web site, was seed-grown calochortus pictures Date: Fri, 20 Dec 2002 08:33:40 -0800 Mary Sue et al Thank you for your comments. I'm so glad you enjoyed my web site. I garden in central southern England, on the edge of Southampton Water but about 20 miles inland from the English Channel. My garden is very sheltered, and though we get hard frosts, they are not generally sustained for too long. My greenhouse has a fan which circulates air all the year, and only cuts in with heat when the temperature stays below zero. The bulb frames have no heating, and after being open to the first autumn rains, the roof glass is put in place and the sides left open. The pots in the frames are sunk to the rims in sandy grit. I grow all my Calochortus, Fritillaria, Narcissus, Tulipa, Bellevalia and others in these conditions. The greenhouse, conservatory and part of the carport contain the South African collection, mainly winter rainfall species. The largest pots I use are 5 inch diameter "long tom" clays, 5 or 6 bulbs to a pot if I have enough. Feeding is sporadic during the growing season. It depends how busy I am! Seasons Greetings and Good Growing in 2003 Audrey From ???@??? Fri Dec 20 10:21:44 2002 Message-Id: From: John Bryan Subject: 2 books - Clivias and Color Encyclopedia of Cape Bulbs Date: Fri, 20 Dec 2002 09:49:37 -0800 Dear All: I have a copy of The Color Encyclopedia of CAPE BULBS and it is a superb book. The text is easy to understand, well written and the photographs are simply wonderful. If anyone is hesitating before ordering, hesitate no longer, you will enjoy every aspect of this magnificent book. Cheers Happy Holidays, John E. Bryan From ???@??? Fri Dec 20 13:32:07 2002 Message-Id: From: Elizabeth Waterman Subject: Irfanview Date: Fri, 20 Dec 2002 13:35:06 -0800 Hello Mark and all, It's the first name of the fellow who wrote the program. Irfan Skiljan Aren't you glad he didn't use his last name? By the way, it's still free for personal use. Oh, I'm glad you brought that up. From ???@??? Fri Dec 20 14:48:43 2002 Message-Id: From: IntarsiaCo@aol.com Subject: TOW Digital Photography Date: Fri, 20 Dec 2002 17:00:00 EST In a message dated 12/18/2002 12:00:14 AM Eastern Standard Time, batlette@cox.net writes: This is very annoying as I have to clear the background of junk for 5 yards in every direction or the lense picks it up as well as the plant I am photographing. It also collects way too much light and on both cameras I have to keep One technique from film flower photographers is to stage your subject against a black velvet background. A simple frame can made from 1/2 inch CPVC plumbing pipe and unglued fittings. The cloth can be pinned, clipped or draped. A slit can be cut in the cloth through which a flower is placed. This can also help with exposure and focusing problems that occur with some digital cameras. Mark Mazer Intarsia Ltd. Gaylordsville, CT 06755-0142 www.therapyshapes.com USDA Zone 5 Giant Schnauzer Rescue From ???@??? Fri Dec 20 22:19:00 2002 Message-Id: From: Ken K Subject: TOW Digital Photography Date: Fri, 20 Dec 2002 20:36:51 -0800 I've been monitoring this very interesting thread for a while, but have been unable to respond until today. I use a Casio QV300EX, which delivers a 2048 x 1536 image. These are automatically JPEG compressed to approximately 1.4 mb each, and are stored on an onboard 360 Megabyte IBM MicroDrive, which fits into the same slot as the memory modules. This allows storage of 240 images in the camera - very handy for nursery-hopping road trips. MicroDrives up to 1 gigabyte are now available for the newer Casio models, and are also able to be retrofitted to the QV3000EX via a user installable firmware upgrade. Image transfer to the base computer is via USB, and the Casio software mounts the drive into the Windows explorer just like any other removable drive. There is a way to force images to the TIFF format, however I have never had noticeable artifacts, so I do not use it. A couple of features which are missing (or inadequate) from the Casio and many other digicams, and which I feel are essential for any kind of close-up photography, are manual overrides for focus and exposure. Automatic cameras tend to focus on whatever is in the center of the viewfinder, and if that happens to be either the background or a set of stamens, then the petals will be out of focus. For exposure, meters tend to differ widely, and will often take the color of the subject into account. This is why many colors are hard to capture accurately - violets and purples tend to show up as red unless they are manually under-exposed a bit. For a starting point, I use a neutral 50% gray card, or the palm of my hand. For managing images, I use ACDSee, which allows me to browse and rename files and folders. When I have enough to fill a disk, the images are then burned onto CD-ROM, and the CDs are catalogued with 'WhereIsIt', my favorite disk cataloging app. If the images are named with a useful keyword scheme, fast and effective searches using 'WhereIsIt' are easy. Ken Kehl East S.F. Bay Area, Ca. USDA Zone 9 -2°C to 38°C From ???@??? Fri Dec 20 22:19:00 2002 Message-Id: From: Ken K Subject: TOW Digital Photography Date: Fri, 20 Dec 2002 20:38:29 -0800 Forgot to include links: http://www.whereisit-soft.com/ http://www.acdsystems.com/English/Products/index.htm Ken From ???@??? Fri Dec 20 22:19:00 2002 Message-Id: From: "Cathy Craig" Subject: TOW Digital Photography Date: Fri, 20 Dec 2002 21:11:36 -0800 Aha, now you're talking! Anyone on top of DC upcoming technology? I'd like a better DC but would rather wait until someone comes up with a lense that has a manual exposure override. This controls the depth of field which is extremely important to me, and I never liked auto-anything on a camera anyhow even with the film cameras. Are there manual-overrides coming online for DC anytime in the near future? Anyone know? PS: For those of us not camerophiles, could one of you gentlemen explain and discuss 'artifacts' ? Thanks! Cathy Craig President PBS Maritime zone 9b > Ken K wrote: > TIFF format, however I have never had noticeable artifacts, so I do > not use it. > > A couple of features which are missing (or inadequate) from the Casio > and many other digicams, and which I feel are essential for any kind > of close-up photography, are manual overrides for focus and exposure. > From ???@??? Sat Dec 21 07:36:13 2002 Message-Id: From: John Lonsdale Subject: TOW Digital Photography Date: Sat, 21 Dec 2002 08:18:36 -0500 Cathy, Fully 'manual' DCs have been out there for quite some time. Both the Nikon Coolpix 950 and 995 have fully manual modes - they are as controllable as a regular SLR, with automatic, exposure controlled, shutter speed controlled and one other mode. To control depth of field, especially for extreme close-ups, I set my 995 to work at anything between f6 and f11 - ensures good DOF. At f11 it becomes quite important to work in very bright light, or use flash. The user selectable features are numerous, and include, matrix, center, center-weighted or auto-focus point exposure metering - again, helps with achieving close focus and correct exposure. The 995 allows you to use fully automatic auto-focus or any user-selectable value from a ridiculously high number that is effectively zero to infinity for the lens you are using. Any upcoming technology will likely address increasing resolution or storage technology - there is little if anything left to do to make a good DC more like a manual SLR. Artifacts are distortions or defects in the image that can be introduced from a variety of sources. They are not just restricted to DCs - they can come from the lenses themselves. DC specific ones include artifacts introduced by over-compression. Ken - many thanks for your comments and links. J. Dr John T Lonsdale 407 Edgewood Drive, Exton, Pennsylvania 19341, USA Phone: 610 594 9232 Fax: 801 327 1266 Visit "Edgewood" - The Lonsdale Garden at http://www.johnlonsdale.net Zone 6b From ???@??? Sat Dec 21 07:36:13 2002 Message-Id: From: Mark Wilcox Subject: TOW Digital Photography Date: Sat, 21 Dec 2002 09:52:01 -0500 Cathy, > Anyone on top of DC upcoming technology? I'd like a better DC but would > rather wait until someone comes up with a lense that has a manual exposure > override. This controls the depth of field which is extremely important to > me, and I never liked auto-anything on a camera anyhow even with the film > cameras. Are there manual-overrides coming online for DC anytime in the near > future? Anyone know? Something that John isn't directly saying is that the manual controls tend to be on the high-end digicams. Lower-end units don't have them. Most of the mid-range units don't either. Mine has manual controls as well, and was manufactured in late 1999 or very early 2000. So, the manual control option has been around for a while. It's paying for it that's the problem. Mark From ???@??? Sat Dec 21 17:18:35 2002 Message-Id: From: Ken K Subject: TOW Digital Photography Date: Sat, 21 Dec 2002 16:43:44 -0800 Mark Wilcox wrote: > Something that John isn't directly saying is that the manual controls tend to > be on the high-end digicams. Lower-end units don't have them. Most of the > mid-range units don't either. Mine has manual controls as well, and was > manufactured in late 1999 or very early 2000. So, the manual control option > has been around for a while. It's paying for it that's the problem. My Casio has a manual focus, however looking at a LCD in the daytime at a comfortable viewing distance tells me nothing. Through the lens viewing and a ground glass for focusing (such as in older, conventional 35 mm cameras) are optimal, to my eye. One thing that does help is the ability of the Casio to 'lock' in a focus and exposure. For close-up work, I can hold my hand to the side of, and in the plane of the subject, then hold the shutter button down halfway. Then I rotate the camera to the subject and shoot. The Casio offers manual under and overexposure to something like 3 F-stops, in addition to the usual bells & whistles such as backlight control, etc. Ken East S.F. Bay Area, Ca. USDA Zone 9 -2°C to 38°C From ???@??? Sat Dec 21 17:18:35 2002 Message-Id: From: "Bill Dijk" Subject: TOW Digital Photography Date: Sun, 22 Dec 2002 14:18:14 +1300 Hi Folks, I am a bit late joining in with the TOW, but I like to thank John L. for an excellent job well done, and sharing all his valuable knowledge and experience on the subject of Digital Photography. As John mentioned in his intro, the subject of D.Ph. is a huge one. To cover every aspect of the D.Ph.we could go on forever, especially with the fast changing technology of today. In the old days, I had to keep buying rolls of film whenever I wanted to take pictures, dropped the film off at a store, waited at least an hour (often a few days) and returned to the store for my prints. That's all gone, now I'm able to compose every shot I take on the LCD "TV screen" on the back of my camera. After I press the shutter, I'm able to instantly see the shot I took and make sure its what I want. I don't buy film anymore, the removable memory card in my camera can be used over and over again, and prefer the 256 mb card to take plenty of pics at high resolution which can be resized as an attachment for email or kept at that high resolution for printing purposes. When I take the pictures, I simply transfer the images files directly into my computer with a card-reader which transfer the contents- often 100 or more-in minutes If the pictures aren't perfect, I can delete them, I can crop and resize them, contrast and brighten them--even remove flaws if I have to, and within minutes I can see the results of my efforts. Once captured, the photos are then stored in a universal digital format that lets you move them to a computer, print them on a printer, view them on a television, e-mail them to friends, or even put them on the Web where anyone in the world can see them. There's no reason not to take plenty of photos, since you can always delete the ones you don't like. I often take up to six or more shots of the same subject and select the best images for storage. I usually delete the not up to sratch pics.in the photo-editing sofware like PaintShop. Most digital cameras look, feel, and operate essentially like a film camera. Like a traditional camera, a digital camera has a lens and a shutter, and usually also has an optical viewfinder. Instead of capturing images on film, a light-sensing device called a CCD "sees" the image. The CCD is made up of a grid of individual elements, called "pixels" (short for "picture elements"). The more pixels the sensor contains, the higher the resolution, and the more detailed the photo. When you click the shutter release, the camera converts the image the sensor sees into a file, which is then compressed by the camera (most cameras use JPEG compression, a standard format easily readable by home computers) and stored on a memory card. In essence, the camera is automatically developing your picture as soon as you press the button. After the images have been transferred, you can erase the memory card and it's ready to use again. If you're planning to archive your photos, saving them on a recordable or rewritable CD drive (CD-R or CD-RW) is a good idea. Once the images are in your computer, you can use photo-editing software (almost always included with your camera) to brighten, sharpen, rotate, and crop images, as well as enhance colors, remove red-eye, and touch up flaws. When taking a picture I prefer the Manual Recording Exposure mode, where I can choose the WhiteBalance, Metering, Focus, Exposure control, Saturation control, Image sharpening etc. to get the best picture. I am using PaintShop pro7 Millennium edition to further manipulate and adjust the images, its ideal for for the purpose I want to use it for. Like John I started off with the Nikon Coolpix 950, and have moved up to the more versatile Nikon Coolpix 995, which is already replaced by more powerful versions like Coolpis 5700 and other models To further enhance a picture I would use a grey or black background, or sometimes another colour, depending on the colour of the flowers, it gives me more detail and blocks out any unsightly background. The Coolpix 995 is packed with even more features that makes digital photography the perfect media for the amateur and the professionals. The Coolpix 995's unique swivel design allows for a wider range of shooting angles, enhancing creative leeway. The photographer can decide on the camera position while rotating the camera body, and view the LCD panel from virtually any angle. This swiveling lens feature also makes the Coolpix 995 cameras an excellent choice for attaching to microscopes, telescopes and other optical devices. The Coolpix 995's new 4x optical zoom lens also has the macro capacity to zoom in to a 2cm focal distance to produce some stunning macro shots you'd be hard pressed to reproduce with other digital camera's.Conclusion: Digital cameras have revolutionized the world of photography. Now, anyone with a digital camera, PC, and printer has the equivalent of a color darkroom and photo lab in their own home. The technology is still evolving, but has already surpassed film photography in many ways. Join the revolution--you won't be disappointed. Digital photography is becoming increasingly popular because of the flexibility it gives you when you want to use or distribute an image. When it comes to printing, the always problematic blue flowers always end up in a variety of dirty grey blues or purples, any amount of adjusting in PaintShop pro won't make any difference. John, how do you go about capturing the pure, true, luminous gentian blue in (for instance) the Tecophilaea cyanocrocus when you print? I have never been able to secure those colours in print. Do I have the wrong printer or software? (Epson stylus color 740) I will post a picture of the Tecophilaea blooms on the Bulb-Images@yahoogroups.com for you or anyone else to have a look at and to see what the true blue in Tecophilaea species looks like. Best wishes for now. Bill Dijk, Tauranga, New-Zealand (where its sunny and the temp.is a pleasant 25º C.) Tauranga : mean annual rainfall :1250 mm. Sunshine hours, mean annual : 2350 hours. Temp.mean max.Summer : 25°C. Winter:15°C. Temp.mean min. Summer :14.5°C. Winter: 5°C. Wet mild Winters with occasional light frost. From ???@??? Sat Dec 21 21:46:46 2002 Message-Id: From: "Bill Dijk" Subject: TOW - Digital Photography of Plants and subsequent manipulation of images for printing, the web etc. Date: Sun, 22 Dec 2002 18:27:51 +1300 Dear Mary, Wow, if I had to choose between the Nikon Coolpix 5700 and the Sony Mavica FD 73, I would immediately pick the Nikon C.5700. I am green with envy you have that choice, but then again, don't take any notice of me because I am uncontrollably biased in favour of Nikon DC's. Have a look what it has to offer and make up your own mind.(copied from the Nikon Website) Good luck and good hunting, Bill D. Tauranga, New Zealand +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Nikon Coolpix 5700 a.. Excellent metering, great neutral color response, above average resolution b.. Control over internal processing algorithm parameters: contrast, saturation, sharpness c.. Relatively low ISO 100 noise d.. Very clever 'Quick Response' shutter release mode e.. Excellent build quality, full metal case f.. Smaller body than you think, big 8x lens fully retracts into camera g.. Good macro capability considering the lens zoom range h.. Fast operation, good shot to shot times (especially in Quick Response mode) i.. Three user memories (although current firmware has a bug) j.. Great control over 'photographic' features such as selection of AF point k.. Spot metering can be tied to AF point l.. Fast wide angle auto focus, slower at telephoto m.. Unique focus confirmation (LCD live view sharpening) option n.. Fine-tunable white balance o.. Detailed exposure information available in playback mode (roll the command dial) p.. Re-programmable FUNC button (user set / focus / flash / white balance / metering) q.. Noise Reduction mode for clean long exposures r.. Illuminated top LCD status panel s.. New LCD is smaller but sharper and brighter with anti-reflective coating t.. Love it or hate it the 5700's EVF is one of the best around u.. USB mass storage device connectivity With its eight times optical zoom the 5700 becomes an extremely practical 'shoot anything' camera. Image quality is excellent, with that great matrix metering, good tonal balance and colour (accurate and vivid without blowing out colours) plus above average resolution. Purple fringing is down but the overall look of the image is still very 'Coolpix'. Noise levels are good, especially when compared to other five megapixel digital cameras (as indicate by our comparison to the Minolta DiMAGE 7i). Just like other prosumer Coolpix digital cameras another of the 5700's strengths is in its excellent flexibility and manual control, there's almost nothing you can't tweak or change which means getting the camera set up to your personal taste is fairly easy. The lens turned out to be better than I'd expected, sharp even up to its maximum telephoto. I'm sure there will be some users who will miss the Coolpix 5000's 28 mm wide angle (adding wide angle to the 5700 is possible but makes it quite bulky). Price could be an issue, especially with the six megapixel D-SLR's at around $2000. However, consider that the 5700 has a high quality ultra-compact 8x optical zoom lens built into the camera and you'll soon see that you'd have to spend quite a bit more on top of the price of a D-SLR to get that zoom range and probably a bag to carry it all in. Highly Recommended Overall conclusion Here's the rating of the Nikon Coolpix 5700: (5 megapixel prosumer) Detail: Rating (out of ten) Construction 9 Features 9 Image quality 8.5 Lens/ CCD combination 8.5 Ease of use 8 Value for money 8 From ???@??? Sun Dec 22 07:45:00 2002 Message-Id: From: "Bill Dijk" Subject: Fw: TOW - Digital Photography of Plants and subsequent manipulation of images for printing, the web etc. Date: Sun, 22 Dec 2002 19:43:11 +1300 Sorry Mary, that should read the choice between the Nikon Coolpix 5700 and the Sony DSCF 717. Best wishes, Bill D. From ???@??? Sun Dec 22 07:45:00 2002 Message-Id: From: John Lonsdale Subject: TOW Digital Photography Date: Sun, 22 Dec 2002 10:00:21 -0500 Hi Bill, Many thanks for the thorough, clear and very helpful description of your digital photography 'process'. One thing that shines through is your enthusiasm for all things digital - in addition to all the other positives going for it, it is FUN ! It isn't just the way of the future, it has arrived. At first sight the big picture (no pun intended) might appear a little intimidating but the best way to get your feet wet is to have a go. Some of the things we've discussed are best carried out with high-end cameras and more complex and expensive software and hardware, but they can wait ! Especially if you want to present your photos on the web, you don't have to spend a whole lot of money on either a camera, printer or software. Once you've tried it out there's no going back, and there's lots of help available if you get stuck or want to push the envelope a bit further. Bill asked about accurate color rendition, especially when printing. These few words open another whole can of worms - namely the subject of color management. The mention of color management is enough to strike terror into anyone's heart but, again, there's a minimum you need to do and then some you can go further with. At a minimum you need to set up your monitor correctly and ideally determine/set the correct color profiles for your camera, printer and scanner. There is software available to help you do this. If your mother-in-law's hair really is not as green as it comes out on your prints then you'll have to do some of this. In many cases you can get away with less tweaking. I work in Photoshop in sRGB 'color space' and use this embedded profile to print with. Color printers come with many color profiles you can associate with them - I actually turned off color management on my Epson printers and just print with the embedded Photoshop profile. I am very happy with color rendition, including the blues, but have not had some of the issues that friends have had. My solution would surely be frowned upon by professionals and I'm sure is 'wrong' but.... In Bill's case I suspect that some work on changing the output color profile for the printer will fix the issue and the 'blues' will go away. Monaco EZColor is one program that is designed to set color profiles. I found a site yesterday selling the Coolpix 5700 for not much more than the 995. There is also an 11 megapixel Canon out there ............just think of the damage you could do with that ! Christmas is also a wonderful time to buy memory, ECost has some incredible deals on Flash Cards, SD cards, memory sticks, readers etc, with dirt cheap shipping. Trade in the monographed handkerchiefs, socket sets, ties, slippers, saucepans and bath salts for a little something digital ! J. Dr John T Lonsdale 407 Edgewood Drive, Exton, Pennsylvania 19341, USA Phone: 610 594 9232 Fax: 801 327 1266 Visit "Edgewood" - The Lonsdale Garden at http://www.johnlonsdale.net Zone 6b From ???@??? Sun Dec 22 13:48:07 2002 Message-Id: From: "J.E. Shields" Subject: Not much blooming as we approach Christmas Date: Sun, 22 Dec 2002 15:49:41 -0500 Hi all, The greenhouses are not very colorful just now. Lachenalia viridiflora has been blooming and now L. bulbifera is in full bloom. There were a few bright yellow flowers recently on Cypella peruviana. A hanging basket full of Gladiolus carmineus has three scapes topped with vivid pink flowers, showing the white blaze surrounded by a deep rose eye on each of the three lower tepals. These came as cormlets from the IBS BX some time ago. Haemanthus deformis bloomed and still looks very very white. The flowers are however wilting. I tried pollinating one plant by the other, just to see what happens. An occasional blue bloom still shows up on the pot of Moraea polystachya. A small pot of Romulea bulbocodium seedlings, planted in Feb. 2001, have bloomed a couple of times this month; but I never can catch them with their yellow flower open. We are waiting for the clivia seeds to ripen and for some clivia blooms to start pushing out from the heart of the plants. Nothing so far! Regards, Jim Shields in central Indiana ************************************************* Jim Shields USDA Zone 5 Shields Gardens, Ltd. P.O. Box 92 WWW: http://www.shieldsgardens.com/ Westfield, Indiana 46074, USA Tel. +1-317-896-3925 Member of INTERNATIONAL CLIVIA CO-OP From ???@??? Sun Dec 22 15:30:59 2002 Message-Id: From: Mary Sue Ittner Subject: Not much blooming as we approach Christmas Date: Sun, 22 Dec 2002 15:11:15 -0800 Today the sun is shining for the first time in about 9-10 days. We have seen it briefly, but mostly it has been raining, or pausing between rain, or hailing, or blustery. The sun is delicious and since more rain is expected I was tempted to move myself to different parts of my garden as the sun moves to them and just soak up as much as I can. But I also wanted to survey the damage. Quite a few leaves look damaged by the weather, but I am almost more surprised by those that are not. So what is blooming here in Northern California as Christmas approaches. Quite a few Oxalis would be blooming if it were just a bit warmer as they have closed flowers: Oxalis obtusa (pink, apricot, peach, copper, yellow), Oxalis purpurea (white), Oxalis goniorhiza and versicolor (both pretty when closed with candy striped petals), and Oxalis luteola. I have four clones of the latter. Two of them have never bloomed even though I have had them for quite a few years. One of them usually doesn't even break dormancy until February or so. One of the others is a wonderful long blooming plant that brings me much pleasure every year and the other a new one from the IBS auction in Pasadena that looks like a winner too and is a sunny yellow unlike the other which is much paler. It just goes to show you that you can't dismiss a plant as not being something you can grow by just trying one clone. A few Cyclamen coums are already blooming and I am still getting blooms on this one Cyclamen purpurescens which first started blooming in July. And thanks to Mark I bent down to smell it and it really is nicely fragrant. Muscari neglectum has been blooming since November and I saw some new ones opening today. And leaves are coming up of the Iris unguicularis I cut back and a new flower bloomed today. Romulea tortulosa has been trying but the weather hasn't cooperated, but it too bloomed today. Right before that first storm ten days ago I had a bloom of Calochortus uniflorus which no doubt had been lulled into thinking it was already spring by the warm dry weather we had been having. I have had non stop blooms on a Moraea that came via seed from Dirk Wallace labeled as Moraea venenata. I struggled last year to determine how it was different from M. polystachya and wasn't sure. But it does much better for me that the M. polystachyas I have grown in the past so I am thrilled to have it. Last year it looked diseased with two straight months of rain in November and December so this year it is in my covered structure and looking much better. I too have Lachenalia viridiflora in bloom with its wonderful turquoise flowers and I have nice scapes forming on a whole lot of other ones as well. Crocus laevigatus has been blooming off and on weather permitting. Finally every year I survey my ever expanding collection of pots and question my sanity. But this week when the weather was raging outdoors I brought in two Narcissus plants to protect them from the elements and to enjoy their bright encouraging flowers. In the northern hemisphere spring of 1999 Bill Dijk shared a number of Narcissus plants with the IBS BX. I got six different ones. Two bloomed that first year at the wrong time and those two have been the only ones to bloom, blooming last year as well and again now. They are Narcissus bulbocodium monophyllus and Narcissus romieuxii var. zaianicus. The latter this year has just been covered with blooms and even in the low light (without power) was beautiful. Hopefully some of the other four will bloom this year too. How do all the digital photographers do on yellows? I've had a terrible time with my regular camera getting pictures I am satisfied with of those two lovely flowers. There are quite a few spikes on various Gladious caeruleus plants and Babiana curviscapa is trying to bloom. I have this one planted out and it all depends on when it rains whether I actually get to see those beautiful flowers. I am sure it would be much happier in Southern California or sheltered from the rain. Finally even though that is all to be blooming right now there are still things coming up every day and seeds germinating too that give promise of what is to come. I am always especially excited to see 2nd year seeds coming back. Mary Sue From ???@??? Sun Dec 22 17:07:54 2002 Message-Id: From: Douglas Westfall Subject: What is blooming in So. CA ? Date: Sun, 22 Dec 2002 16:31:53 -0800 Mary Sue, you are near to being a poet. Your Email is well written! Here in So CA, the Veltheimia capensis are nearly over the hill. The V. capensis x bracteata are still in full bloom since they bloom in the period between the capensis and the bracteata. Neither of them was as beautiful as most years. I think that can be attributed to the HOT weather that we had in August and September. The Veltheimia bracteata may be a little early this year. The flower spikes are well under way. The Lachenalia viridiflora are in full bloom. They have been knocked down a little by the rain, but the flowers are many and beautiful! The Scadoxus are all "resting" now. But, the seedlings are growing at an amazing rate! The same applies to the Haemanthus seedlings (coccineus, unifloiatus, carneus, and namaquensis). More in about one month. Doug Westfall From ???@??? Sun Dec 22 17:57:58 2002 Message-Id: From: Elizabeth Waterman Subject: Not much blooming as we approach Christmas Date: Sun, 22 Dec 2002 17:43:01 -0800 Here in Oakland the sun has been out for a day and 1/2. Only a few oxalis are in bloom, purpurea white and cherry, compresa, glabra and, as always, succulenta. My paper whites have finished but there are still one or two cyclamen around finishing up. Aside from bulbs there is still a fair amount of color so it's hardly bleak. Liz From ???@??? Sun Dec 22 17:57:58 2002 Message-Id: From: Diane Whitehead Subject: Not much blooming as we approach Christmas Date: Sun, 22 Dec 2002 17:52:20 -0800 Time for the Great White North to add to the discussion. Most of the current colour is from shrubs, especially the ones providing nectar for overwintering Anna's hummingbirds. However, there are a couple of species of snowdrops in bloom, and Schizostylis carries on ( I don't know whether we count this as a bulb, but it has thickened roots.) -- Diane Whitehead Victoria, British Columbia, Canada maritime zone 8 cool mediterranean climate (dry summer, rainy winter - 68 cm annually) sandy soil From ???@??? Sun Dec 22 20:22:09 2002 Message-Id: From: Mary Sue Ittner Subject: Not much blooming as we approach Christmas Date: Sun, 22 Dec 2002 19:53:17 -0800 Dear All, Oops I forgot Oxalis glabra until Liz mentioned it and it is so cute with its bright pink flowers. Thank you Uli who sent it to the BX years ago. And I have a white Oxalis that has a label "unknown Oxalis from BX" that blooms and blooms and seems to do better in part shade. Schizostylis would surely be a rhizome wouldn't it and that would count. It however has been put in Hesperantha now even though most other Hesperanthas have corms so since there was only was species the whole genus is gone. I was sad to hear it because I always liked trying to pronounce it and now that we know we can pronounce it however we want as long as everyone can tell what it is I could do it without worrying how far off I was. I suppose since most people know it under its old name that is one to cross reference. Interesting to hear that it is blooming in Canada. Mary Sue From ???@??? Mon Dec 23 07:42:30 2002 Message-Id: From: "Mary Wise" Subject: TOW Digital Photography Date: Mon, 23 Dec 2002 15:40:02 +0800 Dear John I would like to thank you and everyone who has supplied such an incredible amount of information on the subject of digital photography and general understanding of the workings of all the attendant soft. & hardware. I have archived all the messages so that the information is accessible as and when I have time to read carefully and hopefully understand through practice, when and if I ever get my new camera. You can be sure that you will hear all about it when it happens :)) Once again thanks, it has been fascinating ,hopefully it wont end here. :) cheers Mary From ???@??? Mon Dec 23 08:37:00 2002 Message-Id: From: Mary Sue Ittner Subject: Favorite Urls-PBS TOW Date: Mon, 23 Dec 2002 08:20:39 -0800 Dear All, First off I want to give a really big thank you for the excellent information provided on digital photography for flowers. John Lonsdale started us off with a super introduction and continued to be an excellent moderator. Thanks too for all the rest who contributed their experiences and knowledge. I am sure there are a lot of us like me who didn't understand all of it, but will save it and study it and when the time comes if we take the plunge we will have resources to help us. Just because I am introducing a new topic, still feel free to continue if there still are questions and issues to be covered. The topic of this week (and perhaps next too if people want to slow down for the holidays) is favorite URLs. Please share with the group some of the resources you have found that you really like and go back to. I thought about splitting this up over the weeks, but then thought people will be in and out and may not appreciate a whole lot of short messages so am doing a longer one. Where do you go to look at images of bulbs? Some of the web sites of our list members come to mind but there are others surely. Those of you who have web sites might want to tell us about your sites if you haven't already. Had John Lonsdale not told us about his we never would have found it. And hopefully thanks to Diane many found Audrey Cain's. Where do you check out names to see if you have spelled them correctly? When you get some of those seed lists and something is listed you can't find in any of your books, where do you look? Are there special places for different genera that provide good information about them? Those of you who belong to other lists that have public archives tell us where to find them: (arisaema, trillium, alpine, aroid, etc.) Is there a place to convert from metric to English and back? I know there is a site for currency conversion and language translation (such as it is). We already were given that wonderful climate site that was very useful so generic sites that gardeners would use would be good, not just bulb specific. Robin Attrill gave me a site where I could get the latest revision on South African Romulea. Are there other sites like that for other revisions? Those are just a few ideas that come to mind. I am sure that the rest of you will be able to come up with many more. Please everyone share as you have the time. Thanks to all of you who have contributed to this list. I've only been the administrator since early July and feel very grateful for all the friendly helpful people we have in our group. Best wishes to all for the holidays and the new year. Mary Sue From ???@??? Mon Dec 23 09:25:02 2002 Message-Id: From: IntarsiaCo@aol.com Subject: Favorite Urls-PBS TOW Date: Mon, 23 Dec 2002 12:24:08 EST In a message dated 12/23/2002 11:38:47 AM Eastern Standard Time, msittner@mcn.org writes: The topic of this week (and perhaps next too if people want to slow down for the holidays) is favorite URLs. Please share with the group some of the resources you have found that you really like and go back to Favorite URL's include: http://users.anet.com/~manytimes/ Tom Clothiers extensive database on seed germination http://www.goo.ne.jp/ Japanese language search engine that turns up sites that tend not to appear on the more common search engines http://www.rockgardener.com/ Tom Stuarts web database links to many favorites that include: Calflora, w3-Tropicos, Rock Garden Database by Dr. Slaby, the Harkness Seedlist and links to the archives of Alpine, Arisaema, Penstemon and Trillium-l http://www.ou.edu/cas/botany-micro/bot-linx/ Scott's Botanical Links- extensive list of links http://www-sci.lib.uci.edu/HSG/RefCalculators.html Martindales Reference Desk of Calculators Online Mark Mazer Intarsia Ltd. Gaylordsville, CT 06755-0142 www.therapyshapes.com USDA Zone 5 Giant Schnauzer Rescue From ???@??? Mon Dec 23 11:37:01 2002 Message-Id: From: ann marie Subject: Favorite Urls-PBS TOW Date: Mon, 23 Dec 2002 11:32:44 -0800 (PST) some of my favorite sites are: http://www.epiphyllum.com/epibase/home.htm All about Epiphyllums that you could ever want to know. http://www.bulbsociety.org Still the best site for photos on bulbs, great job IBS http://www.maccactus.com If you are a succulent lover like I am this is a good reference site with photos http://www.plusgarden.com/photo/plants/n/Nerine/Nerine.htm Great site for photos of Nerines and their correct names plus another good site is http://www.rjunkdrawer.com for custom metal art work for your garden or home Thats all for now Ann Marie So. California From ???@??? Tue Dec 24 11:15:51 2002 Message-Id: From: Diane Whitehead Subject: Favorite Urls-PBS TOW Date: Mon, 23 Dec 2002 12:25:51 -0800 - I have checked them all today, and marked the two which didn't work. I included them because I hope the problems are temporary. Allium http://www.plantbuzz.com/Allium/Allium.htm Amaryllis http://www.geocities.com/fadjar_z/Amaryllis/bulb.htm http://perso.club-internet.fr/v_pascal/amaryllidaceae/index.htm in French Arisaema - I couldn't connect today http://www.head-crash.com/~rrh/arisaema.html Crocosmia and Chasmanthe http://theafricangarden.netfirms.com/page7.html Crocus http://www.thealpinehouse.fsnet.co.uk/crocus%20pages/ Cyclamen http://www.cyclamen.org/indexCS.html http://www.tilebarn-cyclamen.co.uk/ Fritillaria http://homepage.ntlworld.com/lee.pater/images.htm Iris- Reticulata and Juno http://reticulatas.com/ Ixia http://www.angelfire.com/ri/ixia/ Lilium http://ccins.camosun.bc.ca/~jbritton/netlil/lilynetpage.htm Muscari - this isn't working today but was OK a couple of weeks ago http://home.tiscali.nl/~hennessy/firstpage.htm Nerine http://www.plusgarden.com/photo/plants/n/Nerine/Nerine.htm New bulb pictures http://www.bulbsociety.com/latest/LATEST.html International registers, previously published as books, but the latest versions are downloadable from the Royal Horticultural site: bulbs are Daffodils, Dahlias, and Lilies. http://www.rhs.org.uk/rhsplantfinder/plantfinder.asp National Collections (U.K.) There are links to these bulbous collections: Canna, Crocosmia, Chasmanthe, Crocus, Dahlia, Erythronium, Narcissus, http://www.online.nccpg.org/ncollweb.html many bulb pictures http://www.broadleighbulbs.co.uk/picturelibrary.htm http://rareplants.co.uk/ South African bulbs http://www.thebulbman.com/index.html Seed germination (both urls needed as a linkage between the key and the data must be missing) http://webhome.idirect.com/~jehan/Information/germinate.htm http://webhome.idirect.com/~jehan/Information/orgsindex.htm plant names to verify spellings http://www.rhs.org.uk/rhsplantfinder/plantfinder.asp From ???@??? Tue Dec 24 10:54:01 2002 Message-Id: From: Diane Whitehead Subject: Favorite Urls-PBS TOW Date: Mon, 23 Dec 2002 12:46:49 -0800 Forgot the conversion one: converts anything http://www.onlineconversion.com/ From ???@??? Mon Dec 23 17:16:17 2002 Message-Id: From: "Davd Fenwick" Subject: Favorite URLS Date: Mon, 23 Dec 2002 23:44:18 -0000 Dear All, Here's just a few, I'll post more later. But I must say that Karl is doing a fantastic job with the IBS site. PlantzAfrica http://www.plantzafrica.com/ EZEMVELO KZN WILDLIFE Conservation, Partnerships & Ecotourism http://www.rhino.org.za/default.htm Especially this page which highlights over collection of bulb species such as Scilla and Eucomis http://www.rhino.org.za/flora_medicinal.htm KEW - People and Plants Online http://www.rbgkew.org.uk/peopleplants/wp/wp1/africa2.htm The Eden Project http://www.edenproject.com/ Tresco Abbey Gardens http://www.tresco.co.uk/ RHS Plant Finder On-line http://www.rhs.org.uk/rhsplantfinder/plantfinder.asp Best Wishes, Dave David Fenwick NCCPG National Collection of Crocosmia with Chasmanthe and Tulbaghia The African Garden 96 Wasdale Gardens Estover Plymouth Devon England PL6 8TW Website: www.theafricangarden.com --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.427 / Virus Database: 240 - Release Date: 06/12/02 From ???@??? Tue Dec 24 08:18:58 2002 Message-Id: From: "Ernie O'Byrne" Subject: TOW Digital Photography and image management Date: Mon, 23 Dec 2002 23:44:25 -0000 Sorry all, But before we leave the subject of digital photography, I did want to recommend, since the subject had been broached, an excellent 'asset' management program. An asset is any digital file and can be a sound, a picture, a wav file, etc.--many, many different formats. The name of the program is Cumulus and is produced by Canto, found on the web at www.canto.com. You can even try a demo copy before buying at http://217.111.18.67/Cumulus/Standard/index.jsp (I have no financial interest in this company, by the way) What this program does is provide a way to sort and group images in any way that you want without having to make multiple copies of the image, i.e. without duplicating the file. The file is stored in a particular location, usually on your hard drive in numerical order (a number is usually automatically assigned by the digital camera). Then, in Cumulus you can group the images in any way that you want, for example, by type of image, plant, animal, people, landscape, trip, or whatever. These general groups can also have subgroups arranged in any way that you choose, family, genus and species, or shade, sun, rock garden, color, close-up or distant shot, or whatever. The same image can be placed in any number of locations, but they all reference back to the same one image in one location. All of the information about the image is automatically reference in the program, e.g. the size of the file, the date shot, etc. and there is a notes field for additional information, plus you can even enter fields of your own choosing, if you like. You can save slide shows, for example (or should I say "image presentations" in case people go completely digital) and you will always know what slides that program consists of and be able to reconstruct it easily. It is a really powerful and fun program and I have not really scratched the surface. It is also very reasonable in cost. I believe that I paid $40 for it for an on-line download. I am not sure what they are charging now, but I'm sure it is still a good buy. Try it, you'll like it! P.S. If any of this is not clear, I will be happy to try to elucidate. Ernie O'Byrne Northwest Garden Nursery 86813 Central Road Eugene OR 97402-9284 USA Phone: 541 935-3915 FAX: 541 935-0863 Eugene, Oregon is USDA Zone 8a on the map, but we can only grow Zone 7 plants reliably. Member of NARGS, SRGC, RHS, American Primula Society, Meconopsis Group, Alpine-L, Arisaema-L, Hellebore Group "Peace is not merely a distant goal that we seek, but a means by which we arrive at that goal." -- Martin Luther King, Jr. From ???@??? Mon Dec 23 17:16:17 2002 Message-Id: From: Diane Whitehead Subject: Favorite Urls-PBS TOW Date: Mon, 23 Dec 2002 16:13:02 -0800 When I was little, grownups told children that whatever they said travelled by soundwaves out into the sky and NEVER DISAPPEARED, so only say nice things. I've tried. Now I get information from my children. One of them found a disappeared website for me. Some things really do never disappear. This was an Australian arisaema site - the owner became so enamoured of searching Chinese jungles that he forgot all about Australia, his garden, his website, but someone had grabbed the pictures and archived them. Here is the url- http://www.waybackmachine.org/ Diane Whitehead From ???@??? Mon Dec 23 21:24:11 2002 Message-Id: From: Mary Sue Ittner Subject: Favorite URLS Date: Mon, 23 Dec 2002 20:57:39 -0800 Wow, we will all have something to do in our leisure time. Thank you everybody for this great beginning to the TOW. I plan to look at them all as I have time. Diane, I couldn't figure out how to access the Australian arisaema site, but maybe you just wanted to give us a way to look up old sites. Re: Especially this page which highlights over collection of bulb species such as Scilla and Eucomis http://www.rhino.org.za/flora_medicinal.htm I looked up Scilla natalensis in A field guide to wildflowers Kwazulu-Natal and the Eastern region by Elsa Pooley (a book I don't think was mentioned) and this book says it is a traditional treatment for internal tumours, boils, fractures and lung disease in cattle. That was an amazing number of bulbs being harvested so surely there must be other uses. I remember many years ago when Bill Dijk sent a lot of us fresh seed of this species at about this time of the year. I was just talking to a friend this week about how in spite of getting good germination our long term success wasn't very good. I ended up with only one plant the second year, but it is doing well and has since produced a number of offsets. Cathy Craig was much more successful with her seed. How many do you still have Cathy? It didn't seem to be an easy plant to propagate so what a huge loss if they are all removed. Eucomis autumnalis in that same book is widely used to treat urinary and pulmonary aliments, fever and diseases of stock. From ???@??? Tue Dec 24 08:18:59 2002 Message-Id: From: "J.E. Shields" Subject: Scilla natalensis; was: Favorite URLS Date: Tue, 24 Dec 2002 08:06:04 -0500 Hi, I got some of probably the same batch of seeds. I planted them on January 2, 1998. In November, 1998, I potted up the dormant seedlings into individual 4-inch pots. I had good survival and still have about 4 or 5 bulbs in large pots. They are in individual 8-inch clay azalea pots now, and a couple are in 10-inch clay azalea pots. None have bloomed for me yet, and I keep increasing the size of the pot -- the bulbs I saw at Kirstenbosch were huge, about the size of a large Dutch hybrid Hippeastrum or a Crinum. Each bulb is making a few offsets, which I leave undisturbed. Maybe Bill Dijk can give us some tips on getting these to bloom; please, Bill? I'd like to learn more about this plant. Best wishes to all for the holidays! Jim Shields in central Indiana (USA) ************************************************* Jim Shields USDA Zone 5 Shields Gardens, Ltd. P.O. Box 92 WWW: http://www.shieldsgardens.com/ Westfield, Indiana 46074, USA Tel. +1-317-896-3925 Member of INTERNATIONAL CLIVIA CO-OP From ???@??? Tue Dec 24 11:14:26 2002 Message-Id: From: John Bryan Subject: Zulu medicinal plants Date: Tue, 24 Dec 2002 11:02:09 -0800 Dear Mary Sue: In the book Zulu Medicinal Plants, An Inventory, Anne Hutchings goes into great detail of the uses of numerous plants. This book, published by the University of Natal press in association with the university of Zululand KwaDiangezwa and National Botanical Instotute, Cape Town, is fascinating and a great one to have in one's library. The cost is some $40.00, it would be worth ones time to see if it is still available. My copy is one of a limited edition, being number 237 of 300 copies. regarding S. natalensis, which by the way is a lovely plant, often reaching over 6 feet in height, it states: Bulb decoctions are used as enemas in children and adults and administered internally to cattle. They are also used as purgatives and as ingredients in infusions taken during pregnancy to facilitate delivery. Dried ground leaves are given to a child who is late in walking. Used for sprains and fractures, and in enemas administered for internal tumors by the Sotho. Dogs treated for fistulae and eczema with aqueous solutions are reported to be healed in five days. The plant contains saponins. Eucomis autumnalis subsp autumnalis, is used in much the same way, but in addition ; milk or water decoctions of bulb shavings and roots, taken for colic, flatulance and abdominal distensions. Bulb decoctions are also used for hangovers, abd for admonial problems, syphilis and as protective chatms for diseases of domestic stock. Both Scilla and Eucomis cause death in sheep. For those interested, Eucomis contain punctatin, autumnalin, eucomin. Other compounds isolated include; di-benzo-ocpyrones, autumnariol and autumnarinol the spitocyclic nortriterpene, choladienoic acid. The book of 450 pages, 8 1/2 by 11, contains all types of information including plants used for love charms etc.. Could the many uses of bulbs be one of the reasons some of us love them so? Happy Holidays to all, and use your Eucomis bulbs and others wisely! For my part I think growing them and seeing them flower works wonders for the spirit. Cheers, John E. Bryan From ???@??? Tue Dec 24 15:03:26 2002 Message-Id: From: "anthony goode" Subject: Much Blooming at Christmas Date: Tue, 24 Dec 2002 21:51:29 -0000 Here in the southern UK where what passes for summer is sometimes described as "two fine days and a thunderstorm" winter might now be said to be two cold nights and a mild day, a sudden rise in temperature today saw the last of the autumn crocus, Crocus laevigatus, and the first of the spring crocus, Crocus imperati, flowers wide open in the weak winter sunshine. Also in the garden the first snowdrop, an early form of Galanthus caucsicus I think, two forms of Iris unguicularis, several Cyclamen coum with adjacent buds promising more to come and somewhat surprisingly Colchicum cupanii in a sand bed. In under glass a variety of Narcissus of the cantabricus / romiexii tribe are also looking nice. A forecast for mild but dull weather promises to etiolate some of these precocious early bloomers but they are very welcome nonetheless. Images of all flowers posted to Bulb Images list. Tony Goode. Norwich UK. Mintemp -8C (but only very rarely!) From ???@??? Tue Dec 24 15:25:36 2002 Message-Id: From: "ROBERT PARKER" Subject: Not much blooming....... Date: Tue, 24 Dec 2002 15:24:57 -0800 Greetings.... Just a note (my first) to inform whomever might be interested that blooming this Christmas Eve is a bulb purchased at this year's Symposium, namely: EUSTEPHIA DARWINII (IBS #82). Not only had I never heard of it before, but can"t find any references to it anywhere. It somewhat resembles Dr. Meerow's photo of E. coccinea in the IBS Gallery - but it differs a bit. At first bloom, there are 2 buds, one is extended but not open yet. Two 5" long green leaves arch nicely, exposing 2 more in the center. The 6" stalk, 3 bracts, ovaries and 2/3 of the flower are a darkish pink, and the tips (1/3 of the blossom) are dark green. I suppose when fully open they will flare in the manner of the IBS photo, and in time the stalk, etc. will turn green. Does anyone grow this bulb who can give me more information about it? One of the things that has always puzzled me is the fact that so many plants from Asia, Africa, South America etc. from different families (Amaryllids, Irids, Lilids) have tubular red flowers with green tips (Clivia, Stenomesson, Aloe, etc.) Does anyone have a theory about this? Also, still blooming since before Thanksgiving, is an Ornithogalum dubium - bright orange visible from 30 paces. It won't be long before I am adentate - from all the gnashing. I like to purchase bulbs at least 3 at a time - the purpose being that hopefully at least one of them will bloom. However, I can pot up 15 bulbs in one pot and only one will bloom! How I long to see potsful of blooms! I'll continue, of course, cockeyed optimist that I am. NEXT YEAR, MAYBE???Come to think of it, in the back 40 there is a pot of TULBAGHIA SIMMLERI ALBA with SIX bloomstalks - right next to a gorgeous CLIVIA X CYRTANTHIFLORA with many blooms just opening. QUICK! - tweezers and gelatin capsules!!!! It's almost enough to bliss-me-out !!! That's my wish for all of you - may your bulbs in 2003 BLISS-YOU-OUT 111 SKYLARK From ???@??? Tue Dec 24 17:16:38 2002 Message-Id: From: "Cathy Craig" Subject: Favorite URLS - Scilla natalensis Date: Tue, 24 Dec 2002 15:45:49 -0800 Hi all, At the time I was growing these I had shelves and shelves of plantlets in a plant stand and simply could not take proper care of them all. (I have since limited myself to what I think I can care for when ordering seeds and bulbs). So I have one bulb I kept, Mary Sue. It bloomed last year, not spectacularly, but it bloomed (too much shade). I potted it up a size and it has an offset now and is going dormant once more. Every time I look at this bulb I think about the photo Sir Peter once posted of his! Frankly I am not quite convinced it is a 'pot' plant and would likely prefer an in-ground situation. Someone once told me it made a fine garden plant, Jack Elliott if memory serves. Cathy Craig President PBS Maritime zone 9b Cathy Craig was much more > > successful with her seed. How many do you still have Cathy? > From ???@??? Tue Dec 24 21:51:44 2002 Message-Id: From: "Cathy Craig" Subject: [Lilium] L. philadelphicum var. andinum form immaculatum Date: Tue, 24 Dec 2002 20:21:57 -0800 Jim and all, Are there any commercial sources of bulbs or seed of this variation of L. p.? For those interested I found an interesting article about this lily on the web, see page 9 and 10. This is from a 1998 newsletter in Saskatchewan http://www.npss.sk.ca/pdfs/news-winter1998.pdf Of particular interest is an explanation of why prarie fires may help to maintain these lily populations in the wild. We have often discussed fires as they relate to germination of seeds on other bulb forums but this explanation (of the value of fires) has not come up before, that I remember. Cathy Craig President PBS Maritime zone 9b > Subject: [Lilium] L. philadelphicum var. andinum form immaculatum > From ???@??? Tue Dec 24 21:51:44 2002 Message-Id: From: Diane Whitehead Subject: Favorite Urls-PBS TOW Date: Tue, 24 Dec 2002 20:36:42 -0800 Re: Favorite Urls-PBS TOW OK, I've been in touch with the webmaster and the up-to-date url for the seed germination data put out by the Ontario Rock Garden Society is http://webhome.idirect.com/~jehan/Information/orgsseedx.htm That gets you both the key and the data. Here is a sample of the data: Calochortus barbatus G * rot if medium too moist, grow undisturbed for 2 y Calochortus macrocarpus G * ditto and the relevant key: G Sow @ 4C for 3 months, then place @ 20C for 3 months. * special care needed as described They have Calochortus tolmiei listed, but no germination data yet. Diane Whitehead From ???@??? Wed Dec 25 09:29:36 2002 Message-Id: From: "Jim Reese" Subject: TOW Digital Photography Date: Wed, 25 Dec 2002 11:19:10 -0600 I'm just now reading all this about Digital Cameras. I have one of the best ones for macro plant photos, the Minolta DiMage 7, it has a manual 7x zoom, auto or manual focus, in fact everything is auto or manual, and the photos are free so you can try all different settings and pick what you like. It's 5.2 megpic so you can edit out just the part of a photo you want and still have a large photo to post or print. I've taken over 7,000 photos since February, I've really learned allot about taking photos now that it doesn't cost anything to make "bad photos" , I've taken 10 to 20 photos of the same flower to get it "just right" . WOW what a camera! They have 2 new ones out already that are better than mine, the DiMage 7i and 7Hi. Remember you get what you pay for.... Jim Reese From ???@??? Thu Dec 26 14:42:48 2002 Message-Id: From: "anthony goode" Subject: Iris unguicularis Date: Wed, 25 Dec 2002 23:00:44 -0000 How are the two forms of I. unfuicularis different? Cathy Craig President PBS Maritime zone 9b Iris unguicularis has a fairly wide distribution from N Africa to SW Turkey Greece and Crete. The N African forms are most often cultivated and have the largest flowers and long leaves to 75cm. Ssp cretensis, the Cretan form, is very much dwarfer with very narrow leaves to 20cm long (often less) and aller flowers. The larger forms provide buds on tubes long enough to be picked, an attractive centrepiece on the Christmas table if you are lucky. The very dwarf form has almost stemless flowers and is suitable for a sunny, sheltered, well drained rock garden. I believe that the Greek forms are intermediate in size. Tony Goode. Norwich UK. Mintemp -8C From ???@??? Thu Dec 26 14:42:48 2002 Message-Id: From: "Bill Dijk" Subject: Scilla natalensis Date: Thu, 26 Dec 2002 12:18:55 +1300 Dear Jim, Mary Sue, Cathy, (and the rest of the Gang) Jim, what a coincidence you mentioning Scilla natalensis, which is just finishing flowering for us' I can't understand why this desirable, easy to grow, once established, for us sometimes dominant species, does not perform for you. Last year Jim Forrest had to shift a big clump of S.natalensis in his garden, because it was getting to big for that particular spot. With its massive root system, it was quite a big job to dig it up.. The bulbs were the size of big bulbs of Crinum. The best way to get it to bloom is to plant it in the hottest, sunniest,free draining spot in the garden, with plenty of moisture when in fullgrowth. Not hardy in colder climates, should get some protection againstsevere frost. I suppose our mild winters in NZ, with occasional light frost, are a big advantage. A sheltered position on a sloping bank facing the sun, or located among rocks would also suit ideally. Plant the bulbs with the top half above the soil level, it loves a good old fashion baking when dormant, this seems to initiate and promote the flowering process (crop) for the next season.The same applies to growing in containers, make sure the pot is big enough.to accommodate the massive root system. Make sure you dry the bulbs off thoroughly, it hates wet,cold feet when dormant.Go easy on the manure or fertilizer as well, with us, it almost thrives onneglect.Good luck with the remaining bulbs.BTW: what a pity you don't live a bit closer, I have four large boxes withplenty of 3 year old seedlings to give away, they probably end up in one ofour city parks or gardens Here s what Terry Hatch writes and recommend: Scilla natalensis from South Africa is a highly desirable species for largergardens.It forms very large clumps, and when located amongst rocks where the hugepapery bulbs can be seen it is very effective.In early summer the flower-spikes emerge and quickly grow to one meter or more. They are covered with hundreds of soft blue stars, which appear continuallyfor several weeks.The flowers are followed by 40 cm. long grey-green leaves, which often havea purple sheen. The flower are also useful for large floral displays. The bulbs should be planted with their lower third below soil level inautumn or winter. They multiply slowly, seed therefore is the quickest method of increaseIt must be fresh when sown as old seed does not germinate. It should be sownon the surface of a sandy mix, and germination will commence in two to three days. Small bulbs will form before the winter, at which time they will become dormant. Between four and seven years are required for bulbs of flowering size todevelop. Be patience, if grown correctly, you will be well awarded. May I wish everybody a Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year. Bill D. who is exhausted, bloated, lazy and slightly ebriated with overindulgence of Christmas dinner and the occasional wine.BTW: will post a picture of Scilla natalensis inBulbs_Images@yahoogroups.com and IBS_Images@yahoogroups.comfor anyone interested in this species, to have a look at. From ???@??? Thu Dec 26 14:42:48 2002 Message-Id: From: "Kevin D. Preuss" Subject: Not much blooming....... Date: Wed, 25 Dec 2002 21:31:15 -0500 Robert , I bought one of those things back in 1996 from the IBS, but mine never flowered. I recall alan saying that it was E. coccinea. I believe that the bulbs were originally collected by Len Doran. I grow E. jujuyensis, which is also similar... Holiday cheer, Kevin D. Preusswww.Amaryllis-Plus.com --- From ???@??? Thu Dec 26 14:42:48 2002 Message-Id: From: "Davd Fenwick" Subject: Scilla natalensis / Scilla baurii Date: Thu, 26 Dec 2002 09:30:52 -0000 My experience with Scilla natalensis indicates it is a much tougher plant than one would expect. It has been outside in my yard for over ten years, subject to heavy rains in winter, and has seen temperatures as low as -13C. The amazing thing is that it retains green leaves through all this, and flowers reliably in the summer. Years ago I used to dig them up for dry storage over winter, but I found that new growth was very slow in the spring (like June) and flowering was sparce. For me, it is easier to grow than Scilla peruviana. To add to this, this is because of where it is often found in the wild in South Africa, as it habits most of the tallest peaks there, and can be found on both Sentinel Peak and Cathedral Peak, and there there temperature can get as low as he describes, and snow most of the year. I just wish I knew a little more about Scilla baurii, another South African Scilla. It grows very well for me in a small clay pot as I grow most of my SA bulbs, but I know little if not anything about it. Can anyone help ? Best Wishes, Dave David Fenwick NCCPG National Collection of Crocosmia with Chasmanthe and Tulbaghia The African Garden 96 Wasdale Gardens Estover Plymouth Devon England PL6 8TW Website: www.theafricangarden.com From ???@??? Thu Dec 26 14:42:48 2002 Message-Id: From: Dell Sherk Subject: Not much blooming......./ TOW: URL's Date: Thu, 26 Dec 2002 08:10:10 -0400 Merry Xmas to ALL!! On the URL topic, let me mention once again, that the IPNI site is very useful for the spelling of scientific names. However, there is no information on the validity of the nomenclature. They do give links to what I guess are the original descriptions of the species, but I haven't bothered to figure out how to access them. Robert! Bird thou never wert. I too got one of the Eustephia darwinii at the Huntingdon, but I let mine go into dormancy. I have another eustephia, E. jujuyensis , (which may not be a correct name since it is not even listed on IPNI), from Paul Christian which has never bloomed. I encourage almost all of my "pancratoid" amaryllids (stemomessons, phadraenassas, eustephias, urceolinas, e.g.) to dry out and go dormant in the winter. Unfortunately, I don't have a very good track record with getting them to bloom, so maybe that's not what one should do. I also acquired from the IBS auction a tiny hippeastrum bulblet labeled "Sahuc 94-124" which my records say is a cross between H. EAE and H. traubii. It is putting up a very puny scape, and I am looking forward to seeing what it looks like. Here in Southeastern Pennsylvania, it is snowing - a white Christmas for the first time in a while. This has been an unusually cold winter so far (in the teens F; -7 to -12 C), compared to the last several years. I expect to lose some bulbs which have lived through the last couple of winters outside. But one must be a brave plant scientist, if one is to learn how to do it - right, JIm S. ? All the best, Dell -- Dell Sherk, SE PA US Zone 6. Amaryllids, South Americans, Cyrtanthus, Nerine, Hardy bulbs, and, after a lapse, Lachenalia and gesneriads. From ???@??? Thu Dec 26 14:42:48 2002 Message-Id: From: "Silverhill Seeds" Subject: Favorite URLS - Scilla natalensis Date: Thu, 26 Dec 2002 16:54:44 +0200 Hi all, At the time I was growing these I had shelves and shelves of plantlets in a plant stand and simply could not take proper care of them all. (I have since limited myself to what I think I can care for when ordering seeds and bulbs). So I have one bulb I kept, Mary Sue. It bloomed last year, not spectacularly, but it bloomed (too much shade). I potted it up a size and it has an offset now and is going dormant once more. Every time I look at this bulb I think about the photo Sir Peter once posted of his! Frankly I am not quite convinced it is a 'pot' plant and would likely prefer an in-ground situation. Someone once told me it made a fine garden plant, Jack Elliott if memory serves. Cathy Craig President PBS Maritime zone 9b > Cathy Craig was much more > > successful with her seed. How many do you still have Cathy? From ???@??? Thu Dec 26 14:42:48 2002 Message-Id: From: "Cathy Craig" Subject: [Bulbs_Images] Fw: Scilla natalensis Date: Thu, 26 Dec 2002 07:38:59 -0800 For those interested I just checked my dates. That seed of S.n. Mary Sue mentioned that I sowed in 98 developed a bulb and bloomed in the summer of '02 (four years) and has also developed an offset. It remains in a pot and I have a feeling it would have progressed more rapidly in ground. Thanks to Bill Dijk for all the tips and information! Cathy Craig President PBS Maritime zone 9b From ???@??? Thu Dec 26 14:42:48 2002 Message-Id: From: Mary Sue Ittner Subject: Scilla natalensis Date: Thu, 26 Dec 2002 07:59:38 -0800 Bill posted a reply to our questions on Bulb images so I am sending it to our list for those who may not be subscribed. He has posted images as he promised. I saw one of these planted at the gardens at the University of California Berkeley garden and it was huge. I've been wondering if it would be too wet in winter for me to plant it out and you make that sound like that would be true and now I wonder if it won't be warm enough in summer. I can't usually get Eucomis to bloom although it grows well enough. The only ones I planted out disappeared over time so I have kept them in containers. How do you get a bulb to bake during a winter dormancy? I guess I probably should try to divide mine and plant one out as it also sounds like it is too big for a container as Cathy suspected. There is a lot of competition for my sunniest, warmest spot and unfortunately it is not an area I water a lot in summer either so I may not be able to give this what it needs. Perhaps it is lucky only one survived. Bill, with all those extras you have perhaps you could develop a new business after John Bryan has listed all the uses of this bulb. But you'd have to keep them away from the sheep. Mary Sue From ???@??? Thu Dec 26 14:42:48 2002 Message-Id: From: John Bryan Subject: [Lilium] L. philadelphicum var. andinum form immaculatum Date: Thu, 26 Dec 2002 10:37:06 -0800 Dear Cathy: Why not give Edward Austin McRae a call? 503 668-6443 is his number and he would know where you can obtain seeds and or bulbs. Cheers, John E. Bryan Cathy Craig wrote: > > Jim and all, > > Are there any commercial sources of bulbs or seed of this variation of L. > p.? From ???@??? Thu Dec 26 22:20:52 2002 Message-Id: From: Jane McGary Subject: Pacific Bulb Society Digest Date: Thu, 26 Dec 2002 18:55:43 -0800 Tony Goode described Iris unguicularis and its ssp. cretica. I grow the North African one in two forms, 'Walter Butt' and a deep violet. Would like a good white one please? I've had ssp. cretica but was not impressed with its looks and it died in a cold year. Those who live where it is too cold for the N. African I. unguicularis (it survives outdoors here only because sheltered under a deck overhang, and is probably hardy to about 20 F in the open) should know about Iris lazica, a close relative from Turkey's Black Sea coast. Also evergreen and rather vigorous in growth, it flowers later (March, here) and has similar bright lavender flowers on shortish stems. Native to open woodland, it does all right in full sun and flowers better there, but the foliage tends to yellow in sun. There are a number of shade-tolerant irises that flower better if a bit sunburnt, such as I. tenuis, an endemic near my home. Jane McGary Northwestern Oregon, USA From ???@??? Fri Dec 27 08:04:10 2002 Message-Id: From: "J.E. Shields" Subject: Iris lazica Date: Fri, 27 Dec 2002 08:17:23 -0500 Hi all, Jane, I'm interested in how hardy Iris lazica might be here. Also would like to know a source for plants or seeds. I'm testing Iris collettii out in the rock garden this winter, but I've kept one plant in a pot in a coldframe, just in case. I was going to keep two potted I. collettii, but one in a pot died in early autumn and I never got around to potting up another one. We had a rather wet autumn, and perhaps the rain was too much for it. How about Iris suaveolens? Is it cold hardy in this climate (USDA zone 5, moist Midwest)? Best wishes, Jim Shields in central Indiana (USA) ************************************************* Jim Shields USDA Zone 5 Shields Gardens, Ltd. P.O. Box 92 WWW: http://www.shieldsgardens.com/ Westfield, Indiana 46074, USA Tel. +1-317-896-3925 Member of INTERNATIONAL CLIVIA CO-OP From ???@??? Fri Dec 27 08:59:14 2002 Message-Id: From: "Alberto Castillo" Subject: Scilla natalensis Date: Fri, 27 Dec 2002 16:42:40 +0000 Dear all: Scilla natalensis has been a very easy and dependable bulb for years in a bed raised 40 cm. It is dormant in winter and do not seem to mind our year round rains given the extra drainage. Foliage is quite attractive in a rosette and the bulbs grows partially out of the ground . These bulbs came from the late Wendy McClelland. The flowers are nothing like in Bill's image being a dull pale blue, hardly noticeable, so it is important to mention that not all flowers are the same attractive blue. Regards Alberto From ???@??? Fri Dec 27 08:59:55 2002 Message-Id: From: Mary Sue Ittner Subject: Favorite Urls-PBS TOW Date: Fri, 27 Dec 2002 08:52:21 -0800 Here is the place you can search the public archives for the Alpine, Arisaema, passiflora, penstemon, and the trillium lists and all the other lists on surfnet all at once. It is in Dutch, but I think you can kind of figure out how to use it. Maybe Gerrit, Lauw, or Bill can translate some of the words. I assumed Zoek was Search which turned out to be correct. It is fast and works really well. http://search.surfnet.nl/listserv/ Mary Sue From ???@??? Fri Dec 27 11:49:32 2002 Message-Id: From: John Bryan Subject: Scilla natalensis / Scilla baurii Date: Fri, 27 Dec 2002 10:27:21 -0800 Dear Dave: I checked in the 1993 Plants of Southern Africa published by the National Botanical Institute of South Africa, there was no listing of Scilla baurii. I checked Drimiopsis and no baurii was listed. Are you certain this is a South African species? I think the correct name may be Ledbouria cooperi, called South African Squill, found in the NE Eastern Cape, Swaziland and Lesotho. This inhabits sandy grasslands. Bulb rounded, with light brown papery tunic. Grows 6 inches in height, stems mottled with red. 3-4 leaves, light olive green, with several longitudinal red-brown stripes. Numerous flowers 1/4 inch in diameter, on down curved pedicels. tepals pale mauve, often with green midvein; filaments bright purple, anthers yellow, flowers in summer, September to February in the wild. One of the hardiest species. Many of this genus were, at one time in Scilla, but were separated because of their distribution and having spotted or striped leaves stripes being purple or dark red. Hope this helps. Cheers and Go Argyle!! John E. Bryan From ???@??? Fri Dec 27 15:45:36 2002 Message-Id: From: "Davd Fenwick" Subject: Scilla baurii Date: Fri, 27 Dec 2002 20:41:59 -0000 Hi John, Thanks for looking. I can confirm that the name is Scilla baurii, and that the bulb was grown from South African collected seed, in South Africa before it was given to me. I'm at a loss too. Unlike its cousin Scilla natalensis it doesn't appear in the Southern African Red Data List. It's a summer grower and the leaves are presently under a couple inches in length, of a bronze colour, striated in the direction of the centre of the whorl, and hug the ground in the manner of Eucomis autumnalis subsp. amaryllidifolia. Cathy, Argyle, are the local soccer team, in full they are called Plymouth Argyle. The Pilgrim Fathers went from Plymouth to America, and John can claim this as well. Best Wishes, Dave (Plymouth) David Fenwick NCCPG National Collection of Crocosmia with Chasmanthe and Tulbaghia The African Garden 96 Wasdale Gardens Estover Plymouth Devon England PL6 8TW Website: www.theafricangarden.com From ???@??? Fri Dec 27 15:45:36 2002 Message-Id: From: "Davd Fenwick" Subject: Scilla baurii / Ledebouria / TOTW URLs Date: Fri, 27 Dec 2002 21:39:37 -0000 Have just found a good url for some Ledebouria pics, many species featured. http://www003.upp.so-net.ne.jp/Lachenalia/lili5.html Best Wishes, Dave David Fenwick NCCPG National Collection of Crocosmia with Chasmanthe and Tulbaghia The African Garden 96 Wasdale Gardens Estover Plymouth Devon England PL6 8TW Website: www.theafricangarden.com From ???@??? Fri Dec 27 15:45:36 2002 Message-Id: From: "Davd Fenwick" Subject: TOTW URLs Lachenalia Date: Fri, 27 Dec 2002 21:43:28 -0000 A Japanese site with a few Lachenalia pics http://www003.upp.so-net.ne.jp/Lachenalia/gallery1.html Best Wishes, Dave David Fenwick NCCPG National Collection of Crocosmia with Chasmanthe and Tulbaghia The African Garden 96 Wasdale Gardens Estover Plymouth Devon England PL6 8TW Website: www.theafricangarden.com From ???@??? Sat Dec 28 12:41:15 2002 Message-Id: From: Jane McGary Subject: Iris lazica Date: Fri, 27 Dec 2002 13:51:01 -0800 Jim SHields asked, >Jane, I'm interested in how hardy Iris lazica might be here. Also would >like to know a source for plants or seeds. >How about Iris suaveolens? Is it cold hardy in this climate (USDA zone 5, >moist Midwest)? There is seed of Iris lazica in the new NARGS seed list. (To join, go to . The plants are sometimes available from Gossler Farm Nursery, better known for its rhododendron mail-order business. Also, I could probably send small divisions with my summer bulb sales, if there is interest. Iris lazica is a "Pontic" plant so it is tolerant of winter rain and summer irrigation, though also tolerant of dry summers. It is definitely hardy to zero F, but I don't know of anyone growing it in a colder place. Iris suaveolens, one of the dwarf bearded species, grows fairly well here but would appreciate a warmer, drier winter. I know it has been grown successfully in Missouri. Jane McGary Northwest Oregon From ???@??? Fri Dec 27 15:45:36 2002 Message-Id: From: "Davd Fenwick" Subject: TOTW URLs Date: Fri, 27 Dec 2002 21:56:56 -0000 And Amaryllids http://www003.upp.so-net.ne.jp/Lachenalia/amary1.html David Fenwick NCCPG National Collection of Crocosmia with Chasmanthe and Tulbaghia The African Garden 96 Wasdale Gardens Estover Plymouth Devon England PL6 8TW Website: www.theafricangarden.com From ???@??? Fri Dec 27 15:45:36 2002 Message-Id: From: Diane Whitehead Subject: TOTW URLs Date: Fri, 27 Dec 2002 15:45:56 -0800 Re: TOTW URLs And Amaryllids http://www003.upp.so-net.ne.jp/Lachenalia/amary1.html I checked out a link on that Japanese site - bottom right corner of the homepage, Cactus and succulent webring - My computer just gives me ??? for any Asian languages, but I clicked on some of the question marks, anyway. Lots of interesting pictures, and usually the latin name is given in alphabet letters. A couple of morning glories I'd never heard of before, with large 'bulbs' on the surface of the pot - one is Ipomoea welwitschii Vatke ex Hallier f. at http://jeans501.hp.infoseek.co.jp/b018.html Diane Whitehead From ???@??? Sat Dec 28 08:07:17 2002 Message-Id: From: "Den Wilson" Subject: Eustephia jujuyensis etc. Date: Sat, 28 Dec 2002 06:34:18 -0000 Dell, Eustephia jujuyensis (I can't throw any light on the validity of the name) makes a big bulb with a long neck. I also dry mine off in winter but it will only flower if it gets a prolonged cold spell. It will take temperatures all the way down to freezing but I keep mine just frost-free and it flowers regularly in spring. Phaedranassa dubia may be a little more tender and will flower any time of year following an 8 week enforced dry spell, otherwise it will remain evergreen. After flowering, it must be given a minimum 4-month growing period and thus it will flower twice a year. It is a very handsome plant and ideal for bringing into flower for special occasions. I grow both in very lean, gritty compost with occasional feeds of weak (25% normal strength) high-potash liquid fertilizer. I have trouble flowering Eucrosia bicolor. Good luck. Den Wilson Isle of Wight UK. From ???@??? Sat Dec 28 08:07:17 2002 Message-Id: From: Lauw de Jager Subject: [Australian_Bulbs] Ipheion sessile Date: Sat, 28 Dec 2002 09:32:22 +0100 Dear Alberto, You should be in the middle of the dormant period for you winbtegrowers. It would be interesting to see a luist of speciues you might 'eventually' have available. How are my bulbs doing? My best wishes for the new year Lauw "Alberto Castillo a écrit > The plant we know as Ipheion sessile grows in Argentina and in > Uruguay, normally in well drained soils in full sun. They are > autumn-winter-spring growers flowering in late autumn-early winter. Bulbs > have a buff shell like tunic. Roots are perennial and new roots appear > during dormancy. Bulbs are found some 5 cm deep. In Nature they receive year > round rains, an average of 900 mm. (now with the global warming almost > double that). Temperatures are like for Cape bulbs. Dormancy in summer under > hot conditions in the wild. Although these bulbs have genes for some > hardiness it is far better to grow them almost frost free. Propagation from > seed sown fresh and from offsets. > Kind regards > Alberto -- Lauw de Jager BULB'ARGENCE, 30300 Fourques, France From ???@??? Sat Dec 28 08:07:17 2002 Message-Id: From: Lauw de Jager Subject: Iris unguicularis Date: Sat, 28 Dec 2002 09:33:36 +0100 Jane, Dring several years I had trouble multiplying the alba form. However, a strain was given to me is even more vigorous than the species and produces more flowers. My best wishes Jane McGary a *crit : > Tony Goode described Iris unguicularis and its ssp. cretica. I grow the > North African one in two forms, 'Walter Butt' and a deep violet. Would like > a good white one please? -- Lauw de Jager BULB'ARGENCE, 30300 Fourques, France Région: Provence/Camargue, (Climat zone 9a Mediterranean) Site: http://www.bulbargence.com/ "GUIDE POUR BULBES MÉDITERRANÉENS": 116 pages, 400 photos, prix 10 E LE CATALOGUE D'HIVER (WINTERCATALOG) sera disponible en janvier; vous pouvez commander par le site maintenant pour un envoi, à partir de maintenant jusqu'à fin mars. (En fleurs actuellement à l'extérieur: Cyclamen pseudibericum, coum, Dahlia imperialis, Gladiolus dalenii, Crocus laevigatus fontenayi, imperati, Iris unguicularis, Oxalis bowiei, versicolor, Nerine bowdeni 'Pink Triumph', Narcissus tazetta 'Paperwhite', Chinese sacred lily, Double, Moraea polystachya, Lachenalia bulbifera, Romulea, Zantedeschia aethiopica) From ???@??? Sat Dec 28 08:07:17 2002 Message-Id: From: "Kevin D. Preuss" Subject: Eustephia jujuyensis etc. Date: Sat, 28 Dec 2002 05:10:07 -0500 Den, I'd say that Eucrosia bicolor's flowering is linked to warm temps as well as a distinct winter dormancy, not too cold. Mine have flowered every year since accquiring them back in 1997. Funny, the Eustephia jujuyenis you sent flowered just once, the season after you sent it! Phaedranassas flower irregularly here, but do flower. So, climate is the limiting factor with these amaryllids! Happy and safe New Year! Kevin D. Preuss www.Amaryllis-Plus.com From ???@??? Sat Dec 28 08:07:18 2002 Message-Id: From: gerrit oskam Subject: Eustephia jujuyensis etc. Date: Sat, 28 Dec 2002 12:44:38 +0100 Dell, Den and all, Eustephia jujuyensis appeared on a list of Van Tubergen somewhere in the eighties of the last century. I cannot throw a light on the validity of the name. It flowers regularly with me after a cold dry winter rest at temperatures between 5 - 10 degrees Celsius. The same applies to Eustephia darwinii which I acquired from the IBS bulb sale in 1996. This bulb can be seen every year flowering in April in the alpine house at Kew (together with a marvellous clump of Paeonia clusii... mmm) A cold storage might also be needed to get the two Chlidanthus species in flower which I acquired from the IBS bulb sale in 1996. However I haven't seen any flower on them after cold storage so far. Eucrosia is a more tropical bulb which grows and flowers easily with me. It needs a relative short dry (winter) rest at temperatures between 12 - 15 degrees Celsius. The bulbs are more susceptible to shrivelling and drying out than Eustephia when kept dry for a long period. Best wishes, Gerrit Oskam, Netherlands, zone 7-8 From ???@??? Sat Dec 28 16:18:58 2002 Message-Id: From: "anthony goode" Subject: :Iris unguicularis Date: Sat, 28 Dec 2002 21:24:21 -0000 "Tony Goode described Iris unguicularis and its ssp. cretica. I grow the North African one in two forms, 'Walter Butt' and a deep violet. Would like a good white one please?" In the UK I have seen a couple of white forms, purchasing one from Avon Bulbs. It did OK for a while planted against a sunny South wall but has now dwindled away. These iris are susceptible to virus and my white form did seem to be rather prone to yellowing of the leaves, perhaps it was weakened by virus. Equally it may be that the few white flowered clones in cultivation simply do not posess the robust constitution of other clones. I think it was Jack Elliott who encouraged growers to raise fresh stock from seed to ensure good healthy plants. Coincidentally the best flowering clump in my garden is the result of planting a potful of seedlings out against the same wall as mentioned above. "I've had ssp. cretica but was not impressed with its looks and it died in a cold year." I grow two clones of this ssp, they are quite different, both tend to look a bit scruffy although this is improved by careful tidying of dead foliage. The flowers of both are very atractively marked. All of these plants are suited to a warm position, much the best displays in UK gardens are found in areas close to the coast where hard frosts are less common. All of Janes' comments about Iris lazice are borne out by my experience of it in the UK. Tony Goode. Norwich UK Mintemp -8C (rarely!) From ???@??? Sat Dec 28 16:18:58 2002 Message-Id: <320083817243-0001@t-online.de.Sun,.29.Dec.2002.00:42:13.+0100> From: 320083817243-0001@t-online.de (Johannes-Ulrich Urban) Subject: Trip to Bolivia Date: Sun, 29 Dec 2002 00:42:13 +0100 Dear All, In February, I will go to Bolivia and will travel the medium altitudes between 2000 and 3000 m above sea level. Is there anybody who knows about species tuberous Begonias in Bolivia? One of the parents of the over-hybridized Tuberhybrida Begonias is B. boliviana and I guess there must be many more attractive plants. Where to look for them? With many thanks, greetings from Germany and all the best for 2003, Uli From ???@??? Sat Dec 28 16:18:58 2002 Message-Id: From: Shawn Pollard Subject: Kalwerbossie & Rabassam Date: Sat, 28 Dec 2002 19:12:37 -0600 Dear all, I just ran across Pelargonium sidoides in a catalog. Looking it up on websites, it appears to be geophytic and somewhat hardy. Two common names are given: kalwerbossie and rabassam. Are these names from Afrikaans? Does anyone know their approximate translations? Thanks! Shawn Pollard Midland, TX From ???@??? Sun Dec 29 08:12:51 2002 Message-Id: From: "Den Wilson" Subject: Eustephia jujuyensis etc. Date: Sun, 29 Dec 2002 07:34:05 -0000 Kevin, Dell and Gerrit. I would think that Gerrit's climate and mine are very similar (zone7-8). It's easy for us to warm things up a bit under glass when necessary but It may be more difficult for you to to cool them down. On the other hand, our lower light-levels and shorter summers offer a different set of problems which can make some tender amaryllids difficult to please - but I will keep trying. Happy New Year. Den Wilson Isle of Wight UK. From ???@??? Sun Dec 29 14:22:50 2002 Message-Id: From: John Bryan Subject: Eustephia jujuyensis etc. Date: Sun, 29 Dec 2002 13:12:20 -0800 Dear Den: Has the name Eustephia jujuyensis been validly published? Cheers, John E. Bryan From ???@??? Sun Dec 29 14:22:50 2002 Message-Id: From: John Bryan Subject: Kalwerbossie & Rabassam Date: Sun, 29 Dec 2002 13:41:12 -0800 Dear Shawn; It would appear the name kalwerbossie is derived from kalwers as the plant was used by the Hottentots for the cure of some diseases in cattle, especially for "worms in calves" whence the vernacular name bossie being Dutch for bush, thus the name refers to the Bush used as a remedy for worms. Rabassam is a Cape Malay corruption of 'rabas' most commonly in reference to Pelargonium antidysentericum a decoction of the plant's rootstock being used by Hottentots in milk decoctions for anaemias and weakness. It was the name used by the Hottentots for this plant, and consequently extended to others by the colonists from the similarity of use. I hope this is of some help. Cheers, John E. Bryan From ???@??? Sun Dec 29 19:56:22 2002 Message-Id: From: Jane McGary Subject: Kalwerbossie & Rabassam Date: Sun, 29 Dec 2002 18:49:46 -0800 John Bryan wrote, >It would appear the name kalwerbossie is derived from kalwers as the >plant was used by the Hottentots for the cure of some diseases in >cattle ... Please be aware, as I mentioned to John when editing the revision of his book, that "Hottentot" is a pejorative name (like "Redskin" for Native Americans) that is no longer accepted in written works. An acceptable name for the entire group is Khoisan. Jane McGary From ???@??? Mon Dec 30 07:55:10 2002 Message-Id: From: "Bill Dijk" Subject: Leucocoryne species & hybrid seedlings Date: Mon, 30 Dec 2002 22:37:10 +1300 Subject: Leucocoryne species & hybrid seedlings Hi Sheila, Mary (and others) Thought I just show you a few of some of the pics.of the Leucocoryne's species and hybrid seedlings that flowered for me this season. Don't forget that the species can vary greatly, especially L. purpurea which I have in several different colour forms, as well as L.coquimbensis and L.ixioides, as you will see from the pictures I will post. Enjoy. Go and have a look at : Bulbs_Images@yahoogroups.com IBS_Images@yahoogroups.com AB_images@yahoogroups.com BTW: the little boo-boo (little cluster with offsets) looks suspicious like Muscari neglectum (grape hyacinths). They are extremely vigorous, too invasive for garden use in many places. Best wishes, Bill D. Tauranga : mean annual rainfall :1250 mm. Sunshine hours, mean annual : 2350 hours. Temp.mean max.Summer : 25°C. Winter:15°C. Temp.mean min. Summer :14.5°C. Winter: 5°C. Wet mild Winters with occasional light frost. From ???@??? Mon Dec 30 09:02:10 2002 Message-Id: From: John Lonsdale Subject: (no subject) Date: Mon, 30 Dec 2002 11:32:31 -0500 Can anyone please recommend good sources of wild collected western American Fritillaria seed (other than Phyllis Gustafsson and Ron Ratko) ? Thanks, J. Dr John T Lonsdale 407 Edgewood Drive, Exton, Pennsylvania 19341, USA Phone: 610 594 9232 Fax: 801 327 1266 Visit "Edgewood" - The Lonsdale Garden at http://www.johnlonsdale.net Zone 6b From ???@??? Mon Dec 30 09:53:03 2002 Message-Id: From: IntarsiaCo@aol.com Subject: Fritillaria seed Date: Mon, 30 Dec 2002 12:24:45 EST In a message dated 12/30/2002 11:34:25 AM Eastern Standard Time, john@johnlonsdale.net writes: Can anyone please recommend good sources of wild collected western American Fritillaria seed (other than Phyllis Gustafsson and Ron Ratko) ? John: Pacific Rim Native Plants at: www.hillkeep.ca has offered wild collected Frit seed. Mark Mazer Intarsia Ltd. Gaylordsville, CT 06755-0142 www.therapyshapes.com USDA Zone 5 Giant Schnauzer Rescue From ???@??? Mon Dec 30 10:12:16 2002 Message-Id: From: "Den Wilson" Subject: Eustephia jujuyensis etc. Date: Mon, 30 Dec 2002 17:54:45 -0000 John, > Has the name Eustephia jujuyensis been validly published? I don't think so. It was, apparently, collected by Arthur Worsley shortly before he died and seems to have appeared in cultivation through commercial sources. I have never seen seed offered. Best regards. Den Wilson Isle of Wight UK. From ???@??? Mon Dec 30 11:36:37 2002 Message-Id: From: Jane McGary Subject: (no subject) Date: Mon, 30 Dec 2002 10:23:09 -0800 John Lonsdale asked, >Can anyone please recommend good sources of wild collected western American >Fritillaria seed (other than Phyllis Gustafsson and Ron Ratko) ? I think the Archibalds get some most years from other collectors (John Andrews?) in California. Jane McGary From ???@??? Mon Dec 30 14:04:50 2002 Message-Id: From: Dell Sherk Subject: PBS BX 20 Date: Mon, 30 Dec 2002 15:08:17 -0400 Dear All, The items listed below have been donated by PBS members for sharing. If you are interested in obtaining some of them, please email me PRIVATELY at . Include "BX 20" in the subject line. Specify the NUMBERS of the items which you would like; do not specify quantities. Availability is based on a first come, first served system. When you receive your seeds/bulbs you will find included with them a statement of how much money (cash or check) you should send the PBS treasurer for you order. Each item costs US$2.00 to cover first-class postage and packing. It is a good idea to include your snail mail address too, in case I don't already have it. Some of you are members of the PBS discussion forum but not members of the Pacific Bulb Society. THIS BX OFFERING IS AVAILABLE ONLY TO MEMBERS OF THE PBS. Consider joining the PBS so that you can take advantage of future offers such as this. Or contact me at dells@voicenet.com If you would like to donate seeds or bulbs/corms to the PBS, please send clean, clearly labeled material to: Dell Sherk, PO Box 224, Holicong, PA, 18928, USA. Donors will receive credit on the BX for the cost of postage for their donations. OFFERINGS: PBS BX 2O SEED: From John Ingram: 1. Sinningia selvovii: " It is a hardy bulb that should be planted deep to encourage hardiness. It is offered by Plant Delights. Their description is: "Yes, it's another of the amazing hardy gloxinias from South America. Sinningia sellovii is composed of thick light green sandpaper-like leaves on an arching clump that can reach 20" in height. Atop the plant in midsummer are 30" arching spikes of pendant scarlet-orange bells. We grow our plants in our full sun-baking rock garden, where they thrive with good drainage...very easy." These bulbs have been evergreen for me here in SoCal but dormancy can be encouraged by cold temps. Bulbs can get huge over time. I have 3 bulbs, the largest is 15"+ across. From Tom Glavich: At least three clones of Haemanthus albiflos, randomly cross-pollinated: 2. Lot 1 3. Lot 2 4. Lot 3 Thank you, John and Tom !! Best wishes, Dell --Dell Sherk, Director, Pacific BX From ???@??? Mon Dec 30 14:04:50 2002 Message-Id: From: "Bill Dijk" Subject: Gelasine azureus, Phalocallis coelestis, Gelasine uruguayensis Date: Tue, 31 Dec 2002 09:09:15 +1300 Hi All, Still a few more S.American species,that are flowering at the moment. Gelasine azureus: another attractive species for the collector. Flowers are of an deep and intense blue, several per spathe, somewhat fugitive, although a large number are produced over a long perod. They can easily be grown from seed, which is produced plentiful from large seedpots. Prefer a sunny spot, but need some protecting in colder climates. Phalocallis coelestis: (syn.Cypella plumbea) One of the tallest species, sometimes reaching 1.2 meters in height. It flower prolifically in summer, prodicing greyish blue blooms with bluish cream markings and yellow spots. Robust and very easy to grow. Not reliably hardy, except in warmer areas, and planted in sheltered positions. The flowers are brightly coloured but don't last long, produced over several weeks. Gelasine uruguayensis: very rare according to Jim Forrest who aquired this species from Alberto Castillo in 1986. (Dec.1986 to be precise, according to Jim's records) Not unlike Sphenostigma mexicanum but zygomorphic: (being capable of being divided into two equal halves in one plane) Is that the correct botanical name, and can you give us some more info on this species Alberto? Jim is still in the process of learning all about the old internet, one of these days he'll surprise us. BTW: sorry about the pinkish-blue in Gelasine azureus, should be blue, will do better next time. Will post the usual customary pictures at the PBS, IBS, and AB images group. Enjoy. Best wishes and a prosperous 2003 to all bulbophiles. Bill D. From ???@??? Mon Dec 30 14:04:51 2002 Message-Id: From: "Cathy Craig" Subject: Jack Elliott IMPORTANT Date: Mon, 30 Dec 2002 12:31:57 -0800 Dear all, Just a short note, more later. I am informed by one of the Alpine-L list members that a rumor has surfaced regarding Jack Elliott's health and that it has caused some people in the US to send notes of 'condolence' to Jack's wife, Jean. All who know Jack are so very fond of him that I am sure the people sending these notes are well-wishers who have the best and kindest intentions. However; this rumor is completely untrue. Jack is well and is progressing, as I have just heard from David, Jack's son, thru a third party. Later today I will put an email together with more details for all on how well Jack is progressing. Meanwhile, let's see if we can interrupt this rumor before it causes Jean any further distress. Will email details later today. Thanks to all of you who have been fond and faithful friends of Jack! Cathy Craig President PBS Maritime zone 9b From ???@??? Mon Dec 30 14:04:51 2002 Message-Id: From: "Alberto Castillo" Subject: Gelasine, etc. Date: Mon, 30 Dec 2002 21:09:23 +0000 Dear Bill: I hate doing this but the second image is of Neomarica caerulea, not Phallocallis coelestis. Also the "pajamas" Leucocoryne is actually L. vittata. Kind regards Alberto Happy 2003 for you and your family and Jim and Sheila From ???@??? Thu Jan 02 20:01:35 2003 Message-Id: From: Mary Sue Ittner Subject: Favorite Urls 2--PBS Tow Date: Mon, 30 Dec 2002 18:16:12 -0800 Dear All, I've decided since it is the holidays and there are still a lot of people away to continue our topic of the week and introduce Triteleia next week. I have come up with a few web pages that belong with some of the members of this list. I wish I could have found something for everyone and encourage any of you to send us a link for a web page you administer or write for or have pictures on or are pictured on or something else I can't think of. So here is some of what I came up with: Gary Buckley http://www.suite101.com/welcome.cfm/alpines_and_bulbs Audrey Cain http://www.bulbweb.co.uk Lauw de Jager http://www.bulbargence.com Harry Dewey http://www.thealpinegarden.com/alpine-L.htm Jim Duggan http://www.thebulbman.com David Fenwick http://www.theafricangarden.com Daryl Geoghegan (Dash is offline these days, but hope that will change soon) http://www.users.bigpond.com/plants_man Tony Goode http://www.thealpinehouse.fsnet.co.uk Pen Henry http://www.clivianet.org/PeoplePenHenry.html John Ingram http://www.floralartistry.org Harold Koopowitz http://www.clivianet.org/PeopleHaroldKoopowitz.html John Lonsdale http://www.johnlonsdale.net Steve Marak http://www.aroid.org/aroid_l/index.html Mark Mazer http://www.therapyshapes.com/paris Mark McDonough http://www.plantbuzz.com Rhoda McMaster http://croft.eci.co.za/about.htm Michael Morri http://www.cliviacreations.com Ernie O'Byrne http://www.peak.org/~parsont/emerald/OBHellebores.htm Tony Palmer http://homepages.ihug.co.nz/~adpal/kellydalenursery001.htm Elizabeth Peters http://www.gkexoticplants.com Lee Poulsen http://www.charlies-web.com/specialtopics/poulsen.html Kevin Preuss http://www.amaryllis-plus.com Lily Ricardi and Mendocino Coast Botanical Gardens www.gardenbythesea.org Bill Richardson http://www.angelfire.com/ri/ixia Sheri Ann Richerson http://www.exoticgardening.com Roy Sachs www.buy-alstroemeria.com Rachel Saunders and Silverhill Seeds http://www.silverhillseeds.co.za Jim Shields http://www.shieldsgardens.com Tom Stuart http://www.rockgardener.com Boyce Tankersley http://chicagobotanic.org/ Malcolm Thomas http://www.edit.ne.jp/~fkoichi/mokuji.htm#Aust Pascal Vigneron http://perso.club-internet.fr/v_pascal Dirk Wallace http://www.users.bigpond.com/dirkwallace/ Paige Woodward http://www.hillkeep.ca From ???@??? Mon Dec 30 20:21:52 2002 Message-Id: From: "Cathy Craig" Subject: New News of Jack Elliott Date: Mon, 30 Dec 2002 20:21:00 -0800 Dear all, (Jane please pass this onto NARGS and Linda please pass this on to the Lilium list if your members wish it, thanks). Per my promise, here is several pieces of news of Jack Elliott, who continues to improve with each passing month. We, at last, have a one-man personal contact in Jack's son, David, who works under Trevor Wiltshire at Wisley in the UK. You will find reference to his email address contained in the messages below. Thank goodness for Jack's progress. We are all very relieved to have news again! Despite Jack still being disabled, he is better than the last I heard, a few months back from his daughter. At that time he could not even speak yes or no, which it appears he now can, nor could he walk as he was completely paralized on one side. This has now changed and things, to me at least, are looking very much better. From Brian Mathew about a week prior to Christmas '02: I am in touch with Jean and Jack Elliott quite a bit and have visited him several times in recent months. When I last went a few weeks ago I think it is realistic to say that there was not really any improvement. One imagines sometimes that he is slightly better, but I think it depends upon the day rather than any consistent progress. He is very disabled - the main movement is in one arm, and he has very little speech, mainly yes or no. He does appear to understand everything one says, although it is a bit difficult to judge when he cannot respond, but he does smile and react well to any amusing comments. I usually pick a bunch of treasures from the garden, or take photographs, and sit with him giving details and telling stories about them. He does go home for lunch and Jean says that he enjoys that very much. She also goes in to see him almost every day and helps with his therapy. I know that he would love to hear from old friends - probably greetings are best sent via Jean, and I assume that you have their address. He no longer uses the computer, so e-mail is not an option. From Trevor Wiltshire at Wisley in the last day or two: All is well with Jack >and although he has not regained his speech he is mobile (albeit with >assistance of a frame). As I have said before he enjoys seeing the posies >of alpines we take down to him and takes interest in all around him. He is >quite capable of reading! From David Elliott, Jack's son, in the last day or two: Can you possibly put the >message out that he [Jack] is fine and had a great Christmas with the family at >home for the day. We will actually be seeing him on the 4th Jan when he is >coming home again. >If anyone from the States needs up to date information they can always >e-mail me here at Wisley as I am in touch with Mum at least once a week. END OF DAVID'S EMAIL. Anyone wishing information may contact David Elliott: David's email address is DavidE@rhs.org.uk Otherwise, I shall post information to the group as it comes available. Please continue to send Jack cards and letters at his home address and anyone in the UK or travelling there, please do arrange to go see him and give him our fondest regards and wishes for his continued recovery! Thanks, all. Cathy Craig President PBS Maritime zone 9b From ???@??? Tue Dec 31 16:02:33 2002 Message-Id: From: "Kevin D. Preuss" Subject: Eustephia jujuyensis etc. Date: Tue, 31 Dec 2002 06:01:18 -0500 John and Den, When somebody works on the genus, I am sure it will be clarified. Until one is familiar w/ all the taxa (well at least most), it is hard to say where it will fall. Do I recall Alan Meerow saying that it was affiliated w/ E. coccinea? The problem with working on Amryllids is that you need to grow em to able to study em! I can not image how one covers a group that one has no experience with... For now, it will remian Eustephia jujuyensis in my collection. At least I know where it comes from! This is not a bad thing, as I myself lable many plants Genus & locality (eg Griffinia itubera), while it may not be taxonomically correct it is logical. Happy New Year! Kevin Preuss From ???@??? Tue Dec 31 16:02:33 2002 Message-Id: From: "Alberto Castillo" Subject: OOOPS! Date: Tue, 31 Dec 2002 11:45:24 +0000 Hi Dell: The Sinningia should read S, the Haemanthus WE. Regards Alberto From ???@??? Tue Dec 31 21:19:09 2002 Message-Id: From: Mary Sue Ittner Subject: Favorite Urls 2--PBS Tow Date: Tue, 31 Dec 2002 16:38:38 -0800 Dear All, And: Mark Mazer http://www.therapyshapes.com/paris I tried to add Dirk Wallace's page too, but couldn't get it any more. Shayne, can you tell us anything about Dirk or Border Gateway Bulbs? I want to quickly wish everyone Happy New Year before our power goes out again as it has just come back on. Today between showers I walked along the bluff looking at the ocean and with all the storms there were little bays blanketed with foam. It looked like snow or maybe whipped cream, but had this consistency of jello and would bob around and fly through the air as each new wave hit. If I had had a camera the picture would have all looked white since it was a broad area that was covered. It was quite fascinating to see it. Trying to bloom between storms is Crocus imperati and Narcissus romieuxii, the latter from a BX change in hemispheres gift from Bill Dijk years ago. This is the first bloom for it. Mary Sue From ???@??? Tue Dec 31 21:19:09 2002 Message-Id: From: "Diana Chapman" Subject: Hessea and Strumaria Date: Tue, 31 Dec 2002 16:40:21 -0800 Dear All: Apologies if this subject has been covered while I was out of touch, but I am wondering about the status of Hessea and Strumaria. Has one genus been sunk into the other? Any reference material available? I have bulbs labelled with both names that bloomed about a month or two ago, some have open umbels, some have an umbel that droops sideways (what is the botanical term for that?), but the names I have are inconsistent. Any information would be appreciated. Diana Chapman Telos Rare Bulbs