Hi, all: As a followup to the pre-emergent weed control discussion, some of the techniques I have used here might be interesting-more for how I try to control weeds than exactly what I do. Under different conditions other techniques will be necessary. I am anything but an organic gardener- some of the things organic gardeners choose to do seem overly effortful-why apply a thousand pounds of organic fertilizer which must be saved, transported and spread, when a twenty pound bag of chemicals will do the same thing? In the same vein, weed control could be a full time occupation, when a few sprays of chemicals will do the same job much faster-and if your time is of any value, also cheaper. First, control weeds before planting an area-with a hoe, a shovel, tilling, or chemical sprays if needed. After planting, mulch-here, with many rhododendrons, bark mulch is used, which is locally produced. In your area, whatever is available and economical. An organic mulch which adds nutrients to the soil seems desireable, but gravel works well in rock gardens. As the mulch eventually begins to break down, either renew it, or hand weed. You can remove grass, persistant weeds like oxalis, canadian thistles, even blackberries, if you get them small enough. It takes persistance to get them while small. When they get a little bigger, use a knife. I bought a set of steak knives, which are kept with the weed control equipment and are never in the house. They have a serrated blade, and a plastic handle. If I leave them out after a weeding session, they'll still be there, even next year, unharmed. A knife makes quick work of small clumps of grass, many broadleaf weeds, even dandelions. Using a knife does not disturb the soil the way pulling weeds does. When weeds get too large for a knife, then a spot spray of weedkiller like Roundup works. A small hand carried bottle is always available and easily carried where needed. Once you have a hand spray bottle, a gallon of spray solution can be mixed and available at all times. When a weed grows in a clump of something, a "drip bottle" such as a liquid detergent bottle can be used. A paintbrush can also work to apply liquid weedkillers. Anything used with chemicals, including weedkillers, should be clearly marked as such. When dealing with a large area, and weeds seeding in, there are several possibilities. Cultivation is the oldest method, but labor intensive. Mulches of various kinds are a good alternative to cultivation in many situations. In addition to conserving water and adding nutrients, a good mulch prevents weed seeds from germinating by blocking sunlight, insulated the ground from temperature extremes, and may make weeds easy to pull. I don't like to use black plastic for several reasons, including the fact that once applied it is ugly unless covered, blocks water to plants, "kills" the soil under them, and eventually degrades and must be removed and replaced-meaning yet more "junk" to go to the local landfill. There are weed control fabrics which allow water to penetrate, but are still not pretty, and eventually must go to the landfill. I also find that while weeds do not usually grow through them, weed seeds will germinate on top of them and grow roots through the fabric, and are then a problem. Weeds will also creep over the edges and root down. In other words, they still must be weeded, if less than bare ground. At one time, oxalis was a major problem here-anywhere peat moss has been used, oxalis is likely to appear. No chemicals controlled it, pulling it just made more pieces to sprout. After several years of effort and the oxalis winning more ground, I finally found a method that seems to work. I smother it. When an oxalis plant appears, a piece of paper is placed over it, then mulched with something to hold the paper in place. Here in this rainy climate I usually use four thicknesses of newspaper, but have also have used waste paper, including old computer paper. Mulch not only holds the paper in place, it is a lot more attractive than newspaper-and believe me, "bright white" computer paper in the garden stands out from far away. I grow many plants in containers, and the same technique works for them also. When first trying to smother oxalis in containers, I very carefully cut newspaper to just fit the container, cut a slit to the midpoint of the circle so the paper could be slid in around the stem of the plant. With age and increasing laziness, now a square is cut, placed on the container, and the edges tucked under to resemble neatness. It works just as well. If the slit you cut allows weeds to grow through, put two layers of paper on the pot, rotate the second two layers 90 degrees so the slits overlap only at the stem of the plant. Occasionally an oxalis plant will grow right against the stem of the plant being mulched, and can simply be pulled-any root suckers do not seem to find the same hole. Plants around the outside of the pot also can be pulled in the same way. Once in a while a plant has to be remulched with paper, but very seldom. To my amazement, this technique even works on bindweed/convolvulus. Because bindweed suckers widely, it often needs to be remulched, but it can be killed in one growing season-in contrast to chemical controls which usually seem to need three seasons of persistance to control bindweed. You will have to mulch a wider area, and it will possibly sucker through the mulch--simply apply another layer of paper, wet it down, and remulch. Canadian thistle can be controlled, but the paper must be held down with a heavy object-a full pot, large rock, etc. It may also work to cut off the thistle stem with a shovel or knife so it doesn't push the paper up and expose the thistle to sunlight. Those of us with dry summers can also reduce weeding by using drip irrigation instead of overhead sprinklers. There is still some weeding, but in truth, I rather like to weed--a little. It gets me out with my plants, and I notice many things I otherwise wouldn't have time to see just walking by. Ken, western Oregon