Jim W, As you pointed out, there are quite a few red-leafed Crinum. I have 3 or 4. None that are on your list other than the procerum. I really like the Roy Works hybrid. I must have one of those!!! I have 'Nigra', 'Black Beauty', and another named one for sure plus a procerum or 2. Most people call them red-leafed, others purple-leafed. They are all about the same color. It is just a different judgement. I don't know if they come true from seed as I have tried self pollinating them and I got zip. I did cross one with pedunculatum (my favorite Crinum) and I got about 50/50 red to green seedlings. I will keep the green seedlings to see if they produce pinkish flowers (I don't think they will though). I love the pedunculatum as it never looks bad. It's leaves area always pointing up, never brown even under my lax watering regime and the flowers have a wonderful fragrance. I selfed it this year and got about a doz. seeds. I am so happy! Last year I only got 6 or so that just sprouted this spring. Very slow to start under my conditions. The hybrids sprouted faster but I still have some coming along. Joe, I was wondering about submerging myself. I have a client (my landlord actually) that will be putting in a pond and I want some drama there. But, I wonder how they would take our winters here submerged or if I would have to remove it each year. That would be too much work and just wouldn't happen. So, I will just stick to the Gunnera as a backdrop for now. ===== John Ingram in L.A., CA. http://www.floralarchitecture.com/ check it out Floralartistry2000@yahoo.com 310.709.1613 (cell, west coast time, please call accordingly. Thank you)