Dear Ellen and all; I am sorry if I was ranting about those %^$#@ not hardy South African Plants. Jim Shields made me do it! You are absolutely right about micro-climate and variation between your Zone 5 and my Zone 5. Our summer nights cool down to 80 F and I think that is one of the reason we cannot grow most alpines ( i.e I often say that if a plant has seen the mountains, it just won't live here). Plants at high altitude-even if exposed to high day temps are able to rest in cooler nights, but here, our warm nights keep metabolism going and the plants literally 'burn up' without rest. Likewise our winters are cold and wet. Without much snow cover so when we get a little mild weather things turn to mud. There a mild spell melts the top few inches of snow cover and at ground level you have even humidity and temp. I have been able to push a lot of things by planting on extremely raised beds, pure sand and incorporating extra organic matter to raise or lower moisture retention. And of course altering soil pH to fit some specifics. and other aspects of 'siting'. All part of the challenge and joy. My 'complaint' is that I just don't seem to be to accommodate a lot (hardly any) of the so-called "hardy South Africans' as even with my best micro-climate control, I can only go just so far. So..... there's more to hardiness than the info a mere hardiness zone give you, but a multitude of micro-climate manipulations and the 'skill' of the grower- and more. I do try. And I have killed A LOT of plants. Jim W. -- Dr. James W. Waddick 8871 NW Brostrom Rd. Kansas City Missouri 64152-2711 USA Ph. 816-746-1949 E-fax 419-781-8594 Zone 5 Record low -23F Summer 100F +