From janemcgary@earthlink.net Wed Sep 1 00:48:40 2004 Message-Id: <5.2.1.1.0.20040831214539.014c43d8@mail.earthlink.net> From: Jane McGary Subject: Starting from seed. Seed collection methods. Date: Tue, 31 Aug 2004 21:48:37 -0700 Jim SHields asked, >I'd be interested in finding a source of such mesh bags. Go to any large fabric store and you will find mesh fabrics in all sizes of mesh. Making the bags could not be simpler for anyone with a sewing machine. If that's too hard, muslin drawstring bags can be bought from geological and mining (prospecting) supply shops or websites; they're used for samples. From such suppliers you can also buy all sorts of useful things such as sieves in many sizes, strong cheap trowels, and detailed back-country maps. Jane McGary From ken@wildlanders.com Wed Sep 1 01:37:50 2004 Message-Id: <4134FCD2.9393.10AE09E@localhost> From: ken@wildlanders.com Subject: Response to Jane McGary and Jim Shields - nylon bags Date: Tue, 31 Aug 2004 22:33:54 -0700 Jim, I get the bags in bulk for my seed collection company. I am in Ellensburg, Washington. I can sell you some if you are interested - a couple dollars a bag to cover shipping and handling. They are about a gallon in size. I could probably part with 100 or so. I use quite a few in my own collecting. I just take some string along with me. It is pretty quick to tie them on the stem. I tie a bow like a shoestring so I can easily take them off. I tried the cloth nylon but I kept losing seed because it wasn't in the form of a pouch and I would inevitable let go of a corner or one side. Back at the farm, I can look through the bags to see what is in there. Much like the plastic bags that were mentioned but they get to hot and humid for me in the field in the sun (I work with a lot of xerics here in the sagebrush steep of the Columbia River Basin). Still, I like the idea of being able to zip them shut if they will stay with the stem in the seam. > Go to any large fabric store and you will find mesh fabrics in all sizes of > mesh. Making the bags could not be simpler for anyone with a sewing machine. Jane! Tarzan no sew. What is muslin? You are a life saver. I have been looking for different sized sieves. I did not know where to look. And when I called the manufacturers of the screens, they quoted me some high prices and I had to buy way more than I needed. This info will help me greatly. Wanna free nylon seed bag? ahhhh EEEyaaaaaaaaaahh Eyaaah Eyaaaah EyaaaaaAAAHH! Sorry. Politics have really been getting me down lately and I just had to let lose. Ken Boettger ken@wildlanders.com Kenneth J. Boettger Owner and General Manager Alpine WildSeed http://www.wildlanders.com/members/aws All Green Thumbs http://www.wildlanders.com/wildlanders/aaaasp/agt/agt.asp ken@wildlanders.com Wildlanders.com Newsletter Native Plants and Wildlife: Pacific Northwest and the Inland Empire. Article Exclusive: Wild Onions (Allium) of the Columbia Basin "For Crying Out Loud" by Mie I. Smarts From osthill@htc.net Wed Sep 1 08:46:22 2004 Message-Id: <4135C3DD.4090403@htc.net> From: Lisa and Alec Flaum Subject: Starting from seed. Seed collection methods. Date: Wed, 01 Sep 2004 07:43:09 -0500 Jim, Try a whole foods store. You can sometimes by small muslin "tea bags" for filling with your own tea. Lisa J.E. Shields wrote: > > So where can one purchase quantities of fine-mesh bags (with drawstring > tops)? > > Jim Shields > in central Indiana > -- Lisa Flaum Waterloo, IL central USA clay soil, Hot humid summers (to 105F, 40C) generally dry, punctuated by gully washers Cold, wet, cloudy winters, little snow cover, intense freeze/thaw cycle (-10F, -25C) From dells@voicenet.com Wed Sep 1 08:48:08 2004 Message-Id: From: Dell Sherk Subject: Pacific BX 73 Date: Wed, 01 Sep 2004 08:50:14 -0400 Dear All, The items listed below have been donated by people from all over the world, to be shared. If you are interested in obtaining some of them, please email me PRIVATELY at . Include "BX 73" in the subject line. Specify the NUMBERS of the items which you would like; do not specify quantities. It is a good idea to include your snail mail address too, in case I don't already have it. Availability is based on a first come, first served system. When you receive your seeds/bulbs you will find, included with them, a statement of how much money (cash or check) you should send the PBS treasurer to defray our costs for packing and first-class postage. Some of you are members of the PBS discussion forum but not members of the Pacific Bulb Society. THIS BX OFFERING IS AVAILABLE ONLY TO MEMBERS OF THE PBS. Consider joining the PBS so that you can take advantage of future offers such as this. Go to our website: . Or contact me at dells@voicenet.com If you would like to donate seeds or bulbs/corms to the PBS, please send CLEAN, clearly labeled material to: Dell Sherk, PO Box 224, Holicong, PA, 18928, USA. Donors will receive credit on the BX for the cost of postage for their donations. PLEASE NOTE: I WILL REPLY TO YOU WITHIN 24 HRS OF MY RECEIPT OF YOUR ORDER.. IF YOU DO NOT HEAR FROM ME, TRY AGAIN !! From Marilyn Pekasky: 1. Crinum kirkii seed from the UC Berkeley Botanic Garden. The flower is very similar to C. bulbispermum and C. graminicola, but the stem is about half the length of the other two species. Also, the seed is extremely small. Here's an interesting link re indigenous people using C. kirkii as boundary markers in Kenya: http://www.fao.org/docrep/U8995E/u8995e07.htm. It also occurs in Serengeti National Park, Tanzania, and grows and flowers after the grasses have been burned. It has the common name of Pajama Lily, but I can't find out where that comes from. According to Bryan: Zanzibar and East Africa; introduced 1879. Stems 12-18 inches, flowers white with red keels, late summer. Here's the description from http://www.webguru.com/crinum.htm: CRINUM kirkii (Kirk's).* fl. twelve to fifteen in an umbel; perianth tube greenish, 4in. long; limb horizantal, 5in. long; segments acuminate, above 1in. broad, furnished with a bright red stripe down the back; peduncles sometimes more than one to a bulb, 1ft. to 1 1/2ft. long, ancipitous. September. l. lorate, acuminate, 3 1/4ft. to 4ft. long, 4in. to 4 1/2in. broad; margin crisped, white, distinctly ciliated. Bulb globose, 6in. to 8in. in diameter. Zanzibar, 1879. Stove. (B. M. 6512.) From Joyce Miller: 2. Seed of a yellow Cooperia cv. The source is uncertain. One pot I got from a friend. The other was sown from NARGS seeds and labeled Cooperia herbertiana. Cooperia has now been lumped into Habranthus, I understand. Anyway, loves hot weather, blooms readily and multiple times during the summer. Hence, great seed harvests. 3. Bulbs of a large, lavender Allium. From Gregg DeChirico: 4. Seed of Arum italicum. from a feral population near Ocean Beach, San Francisco, CA. From Lynn Makela: SEED (some in short supply) : 5. Hippeastrum gracilis 'Firy Bouquet', very floriferous red. 6. Daubenya aurea 7. Habranthus gracilifolius 8. Zephyranthes jacala (Z. katherinae var. jacala?) 9. Lycoris radiata, dwarf form 10. Ixia pumila 11. Zephyranthes reginae 'Valle's Yellow' 12. Ennealophus euryandrus 13. Ixia maculata BULBS (some in short supply): 14. Oxalis brasiliensis 15. Oxalis lasiandra 16. Oxalis versicolor 'Candycane' 17. Oxalis purpurea 'Garnet' 18. Babiana stricta 'Blue Gem' Thank you, Marilyn, Joyce, Gregg, and Lynn !! Best wishes, Dell --Dell Sherk, Director, Pacific BX From jshields104@insightbb.com Wed Sep 1 09:53:34 2004 Message-Id: <5.1.0.14.2.20040901085222.01cd1718@pop.indy.net> From: "J.E. Shields" Subject: Starting from seed. Seed collection methods. Date: Wed, 01 Sep 2004 08:53:31 -0500 Jane, My wife gave away her sewing machine years ago! Thanks, Jim Shields At 09:48 PM 8/31/2004 -0700, Jane wrote: >Jim SHields asked, > > > >>I'd be interested in finding a source of such mesh bags. > > >Go to any large fabric store and you will find mesh fabrics in all sizes >of mesh. Making the bags could not be simpler for anyone with a sewing machine. >.......... ************************************************* Jim Shields USDA Zone 5 Shields Gardens, Ltd. P.O. Box 92 WWW: http://www.shieldsgardens.com/ Westfield, Indiana 46074, USA Tel. ++1-317-867-3344 or toll-free 1-866-449-3344 in USA From fbiasella@watertownsavings.com Wed Sep 1 10:13:55 2004 Message-Id: <20040901071350.28764.h001.c015.wm@mail.watertownsavings.com.criticalpath.net> From: "Fred Biasella" Subject: Starting from seed. Seed collection methods. Date: Wed, 01 Sep 2004 07:13:50 -0700 (PDT) Hello Folks, If I may throw in my two cents, I would try using old fine mesh jelly straining bags (not the muslin types)which come with draw strings. I purchased mine at the local supermarkets this time of the year, you know, jelly making season. From msittner@mcn.org Wed Sep 1 11:43:58 2004 Message-Id: <4.2.2.20040901084015.0153f930@mail.mcn.org> From: Mary Sue Ittner Subject: Mystery Bulbs Date: Wed, 01 Sep 2004 08:41:57 -0700 Hi, Does anyone have any clues about the plants Hans saw in Peru that have been added to the Mystery Bulbs page at the bottom? He hasn't heard from anyone. http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki/index.php/MysteryBulbs From IntarsiaCo@aol.com Wed Sep 1 12:38:42 2004 Message-Id: <1e5.29788828.2e675508@aol.com> From: IntarsiaCo@aol.com Subject: Cotton drawstring bags for seed collection Date: Wed, 1 Sep 2004 12:38:32 EDT Cotton drawstring bags are available from industrial supplier McMaster-Carr in small quantities at reasonable prices. See part # 1925T61 at: www.mcmaster.com or (732) 329.3200 If you need it, they have it. Mark Mazer Intarsia Ltd. Gaylordsville, Connecticut 06755-0142 USA www.therapyshapes.com USDA Zone 5 Giant Schnauzer Rescue From janemcgary@earthlink.net Wed Sep 1 13:14:38 2004 Message-Id: <5.2.1.1.0.20040901101058.014b9808@mail.earthlink.net> From: Jane McGary Subject: Nylon bags and screens Date: Wed, 01 Sep 2004 10:14:22 -0700 The company that I get my "miner's" garden tools from is in Portland, Oregon, but they also have Internet sales: www.dk-nugget.com They have the excellent one-piece plus rubber handle stainless steel trowels in a number of sizes, metal sieves that are very sturdy, and larger-mesh indestructible PVC sieves that I use for soil that I mix in my bulb potting compost. Also, a large range of topographic maps of the US West, and books on various subjects, and geologist's hammers and so on. Jane McGary From jyourch@nc.rr.com Wed Sep 1 13:47:14 2004 Message-Id: <313c38d3135990.3135990313c38d@southeast.rr.com> From: jyourch@nc.rr.com Subject: New photos of Begonia grandis Date: Wed, 01 Sep 2004 13:47:03 -0400 Hi all, I added new photos of two color forms of hardy begonia (Begonia grandis) to the wiki. If there is any interest in these I would be happy to send a bunch to the BX. See http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki/index.php/Begonia Jay From msittner@mcn.org Wed Sep 1 14:12:57 2004 Message-Id: <4.2.2.20040901110418.015a3be0@mail.mcn.org> From: Mary Sue Ittner Subject: Begonia Date: Wed, 01 Sep 2004 11:11:12 -0700 Dear All, Jay's message about his begonias has prompts me to add that I recently made the Begonia wiki page and added a beautiful species we saw blooming at the Mendocino Coast Botanical Gardens, Begonia boliviensis. Begonia species was requested as a topic of the week, but my attempts to get people I thought might be able to introduce it to do so have led no where. If there is anyone in our group willing to take this on sometime please contact me privately. The Mendocino gardens have an area reserved every summer for the large gorgeous tuberous hybrids and we took some pictures of them too. Anyone interested in my adding them to the wiki when I have time? They weren't all named. Any of you who grow Begonia and have pictures for the wiki are welcome to add them. Mary Sue Wearing my wiki administrator hat From c-mueller@tamu.edu Wed Sep 1 14:53:51 2004 Message-Id: From: "Cynthia Mueller" Subject: Pacific BX 73 Date: Wed, 01 Sep 2004 13:52:58 -0500 Dear Dell, Could you please send seed of: #1 - Crinum kirkii #2 - Yellow Cooperia #8 - Zephyranthes jacala - katherinae Thanks so much, Sincerely, Cynthia W. Mueller 1710 Springwood Ct College Station, TX 77845 >>> dells@voicenet.com 9/1/04 7:50:14 AM >>> Dear All, The items listed below have been donated by people from all over the world, to be shared. If you are interested in obtaining some of them, please email me PRIVATELY at . Include "BX 73" in the subject line. Specify the NUMBERS of the items which you would like; do not specify quantities. It is a good idea to include your snail mail address too, in case I don't already have it. Availability is based on a first come, first served system. When you receive your seeds/bulbs you will find, included with them, a statement of how much money (cash or check) you should send the PBS treasurer to defray our costs for packing and first-class postage. Some of you are members of the PBS discussion forum but not members of the Pacific Bulb Society. THIS BX OFFERING IS AVAILABLE ONLY TO MEMBERS OF THE PBS. Consider joining the PBS so that you can take advantage of future offers such as this. Go to our website: . Or contact me at dells@voicenet.com If you would like to donate seeds or bulbs/corms to the PBS, please send CLEAN, clearly labeled material to: Dell Sherk, PO Box 224, Holicong, PA, 18928, USA. Donors will receive credit on the BX for the cost of postage for their donations. PLEASE NOTE: I WILL REPLY TO YOU WITHIN 24 HRS OF MY RECEIPT OF YOUR ORDER.. IF YOU DO NOT HEAR FROM ME, TRY AGAIN !! From Marilyn Pekasky: 1. Crinum kirkii seed from the UC Berkeley Botanic Garden. The flower is very similar to C. bulbispermum and C. graminicola, but the stem is about half the length of the other two species. Also, the seed is extremely small. Here's an interesting link re indigenous people using C. kirkii as boundary markers in Kenya: http://www.fao.org/docrep/U8995E/u8995e07.htm. It also occurs in Serengeti National Park, Tanzania, and grows and flowers after the grasses have been burned. It has the common name of Pajama Lily, but I can't find out where that comes from. According to Bryan: Zanzibar and East Africa; introduced 1879. Stems 12-18 inches, flowers white with red keels, late summer. Here's the description from http://www.webguru.com/crinum.htm: CRINUM kirkii (Kirk's).* fl. twelve to fifteen in an umbel; perianth tube greenish, 4in. long; limb horizantal, 5in. long; segments acuminate, above 1in. broad, furnished with a bright red stripe down the back; peduncles sometimes more than one to a bulb, 1ft. to 1 1/2ft. long, ancipitous. September. l. lorate, acuminate, 3 1/4ft. to 4ft. long, 4in. to 4 1/2in. broad; margin crisped, white, distinctly ciliated. Bulb globose, 6in. to 8in. in diameter. Zanzibar, 1879. Stove. (B. M. 6512.) From Joyce Miller: 2. Seed of a yellow Cooperia cv. The source is uncertain. One pot I got from a friend. The other was sown from NARGS seeds and labeled Cooperia herbertiana. Cooperia has now been lumped into Habranthus, I understand. Anyway, loves hot weather, blooms readily and multiple times during the summer. Hence, great seed harvests. 3. Bulbs of a large, lavender Allium. From Gregg DeChirico: 4. Seed of Arum italicum. from a feral population near Ocean Beach, San Francisco, CA. From Lynn Makela: SEED (some in short supply) : 5. Hippeastrum gracilis 'Firy Bouquet', very floriferous red. 6. Daubenya aurea 7. Habranthus gracilifolius 8. Zephyranthes jacala (Z. katherinae var. jacala?) 9. Lycoris radiata, dwarf form 10. Ixia pumila 11. Zephyranthes reginae 'Valle's Yellow' 12. Ennealophus euryandrus 13. Ixia maculata BULBS (some in short supply): 14. Oxalis brasiliensis 15. Oxalis lasiandra 16. Oxalis versicolor 'Candycane' 17. Oxalis purpurea 'Garnet' 18. Babiana stricta 'Blue Gem' Thank you, Marilyn, Joyce, Gregg, and Lynn !! Best wishes, Dell --Dell Sherk, Director, Pacific BX _______________________________________________ pbs mailing list pbs@lists.ibiblio.org http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php From rarebulbs@earthlink.net Wed Sep 1 15:47:41 2004 Message-Id: <002401c4905c$893c2df0$24d3f7a5@DJ9SK221> From: "diana chapman" Subject: Mystery Bulbs Date: Wed, 1 Sep 2004 12:47:37 -0700 The first one looks more like a Eustephia than a Stenomesson. Possibly Eustephia kadwei. Diana Telos ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mary Sue Ittner" To: "Pacific Bulb Society" Sent: Wednesday, September 01, 2004 8:41 AM Subject: [pbs] Mystery Bulbs > Hi, > > Does anyone have any clues about the plants Hans saw in Peru that have been > added to the Mystery Bulbs page at the bottom? He hasn't heard from anyone. > > http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki/index.php/MysteryBulbs > > _______________________________________________ > pbs mailing list > pbs@lists.ibiblio.org > http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php From susanann@sbcglobal.net Wed Sep 1 16:03:24 2004 Message-Id: From: Susan Hayek Subject: Miscellaneous Date: Wed, 1 Sep 2004 13:03:52 -0700 We picked up two loads from the Fair Grounds. They're hauling the stuff out of the barns. What was the little bulb you gave me? My mind has gone blank. And...I got through one of your borrowed books, with notes and am working on the second. The Temperate Climate one. I do like it. Amazon has them on sale used for around $15, I may spring for one next month. You're still game for the garden tour? I need to get our tickets. Will try to get to your house to help one day next week. In the meatime, if you need the truck, please come and get it. -- susan, who is..... owned by Jasper & Schubert the Standard Poodles, Gracie the Rhodesian, Pup-Quiz the Basenji and their Basenji brother, Jones.... on the North Coast of CA, USA susanann@sbcglobal.net, copyright 2004 From susanann@sbcglobal.net Wed Sep 1 16:09:44 2004 Message-Id: From: Susan Hayek Subject: Miscellaneous/Sorry, this message was an oops! Date: Wed, 1 Sep 2004 13:06:59 -0700 Sorry, I don't know how I messed up on this one except for brain fade. This was to go private. Duh..... We picked up two loads from the Fair Grounds. They're hauling the stuff out of the barns. What was the little bulb you gave me? My mind has gone blank. And...I got through one of your borrowed books, with notes and am working on the second. The Temperate Climate one. I do like it. Amazon has them on sale used for around $15, I may spring for one next month. You're still game for the garden tour? I need to get our tickets. Will try to get to your house to help one day next week. In the meatime, if you need the truck, please come and get it. -- susan, who is..... owned by Jasper & Schubert the Standard Poodles, Gracie the Rhodesian, Pup-Quiz the Basenji and their Basenji brother, Jones.... on the North Coast of CA, USA susanann@sbcglobal.net, copyright 2004 From ConroeJoe@aol.com Wed Sep 1 18:12:11 2004 Message-Id: <198.2e073ece.2e67a335@aol.com> From: ConroeJoe@aol.com Subject: storing seed, storing pollen Date: Wed, 1 Sep 2004 18:12:05 EDT Hi, I've enjoyed the discussions on seed collecting. I try to stay away from plastic due to the high humidity this area--but will use anything in an emergency. I often fold bits of muslin around stems and secure with a twist tie. I really like the idea of the tea bags. But, I wonder how folks store their seeds. Some bulb seeds are not orthodox, and so long-term storage is out of the question. But, most bulb species have orthodox seeds and, in theory, should behave according to the various equations describing seed life vs. varying moisture contents and storage temperatures. I like to dry orthodox seeds indoors, in an air conditioned room for as long as they need, a week or 4 weeks. I never dry them outdoors because they might not dry, and because I don't want them getting warmer than about 80-85 F while they are drying. Then, I put them into paper envelopes and label them and put the envelopes into airtight plastic food containers with Drierite (color indicating type). I put in about an inch of Drierite in a 6 x 6 inch plastic container, anywhere from 2 to 5 inches tall. I leave the seeds (in their envelopes inside the plastic box) at room temperature for a week or so; if the Drierite changes to pink I replace the Drierite. I like the color indicating Drierite, blue = good and pink = "time to change." You can use white Drierite too and it is less expensive. Once the Drierite seems to have taken up all the water it can, I transfer the seed envelopes to a new plastic container with more Drierite and put them in the kitchen refrigerator. In theory I could freeze them for even better longevity. But, by drying them well and cooling them to about 38 F (3-4 C) they should last a lot of years--I'm guessing 10-20 years easily. In theory, for every 1% of moisture content that you can remove from a seed (say from 11% water to 10% water), you can double their storage life. Also, for each 5 degrees Celsius (9 degrees F) that you lower the storage temperature, you can double their life in storage. The effect is multiplicative so if you can take seeds from 15% moisture content (5 doublings) and store them at 38 F instead of room temperature (about 4 doublings), you can increase their storage live by 20-fold. If you freeze them, it should be all the better as long as they are dry enough. Of course, if seeds are going to last a year or two anyway, is there any need to store them so they might last 10 or 20 (or 40 years)? I guess that depends upon you. I'm forever gathering way too many seeds and drying them and storing them. Then, I have some on hand when a trade comes up. Similarly, sometimes I like to collect native shrub seeds and send them out to all who want them in exchange for SASE---you meet a lot of nice folks that way. If I run out of refrigerator space, I'll just keep them at room temperature--they still should last a number of years as long as they are dry. Cordially, Conroe Joe From jimmckenney@starpower.net Wed Sep 1 18:33:47 2004 Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.20040901183433.009eeac0@pop.starpower.net> From: Jim McKenney Subject: bulbs in lawns; was: Re: [pbs] Lycoris passeth, Cochicum cometh, the seasons march along Date: Wed, 01 Sep 2004 18:34:33 -0400 Jim Shields has opened a topic on which I would like to expand. Who else grows bulbs in the lawn? I do, but I'm not sure I would recommend it to anyone who is sensitive to criticism from the neighbors. Here in Maryland it was a particular temptation because we have a zoysia lawn. For those of you who don't know it, zoysia (the genus Zoysia has several members but only one is important in this area) is what is sometimes called a warm-weather grass. It's green and growing roughly between May and September. From October through April it's brown (light tan actually). In other words, the growth cycle of the zoysia lawn compliments that of vernal bulbs and fall crocus perfectly. That big expanse of zoysia was so tempting that I jumped in very enthusiastically and planted Chionodoxa, Galanthus elwesii and Crocus speciosus by the thousand. It's hardly been trouble free. The squirrels ate about 2/3 of the crocus during the first few weeks. They don't seem to have touched them since (several years). The local squirrels rarely touch established Crocus speciosus, but newly planted corms are another matter. Going into this, I thought the long fall-winter dormancy of the zoysia would make this planting of bulbs in grass a carefree delight. I would mow the zoysia routinely until early September; then allow the autumn crocus to bloom; then give the zoysia a last hard mowing around Thanksgiving to keep it tidy looking during the winter. (I've noticed that that word 'tidy' is often associated in some way or another with various horticultural lamentations). The snowdrops and glories of the snow would bloom and ripen before the zoysia became active. Once seed was collected and they were out of the way, regular mowing would be resumed sometime in May. It looked great on paper. I had not taken into account the profusion of lusty winter-growing weeds. Now I understand so well the meaning of the word opportunistic. Where in the world did all those weedy Cardamine, Stellaria, Draba, Ranunculus, Erigeron, Allium and others suddenly come from? Our soil bank must be the Fort Knox of soil banks. In over forty years of mowing that zoysia lawn, I never noticed these gate crashers in such profusion. Had they been lurking all that time? Zoysia lawns take a long time to become established; typically, some clumps of other lawn grasses remain here and there until they give up. Because of the presence of those cool season grasses, the zoysia lawn was mowed occasionally in the off season. That evidently was enough to obscure the presence of the weed hoards. Zoysia forms such a thick turf that it competes successfully with almost anything else as long as it gets plenty of sun. It will get by on infrequent mowing, although to keep the putting-green look regular mowing is essential. In other words, if you are sitting around thinking how charming the lawn would look spangled with crocus or snowdrops, get a grip: it's an invitation to a real mess. Neighbors you barely know will stop by to ask when you will be baling the hay. Or to offer the use of their lawn mower. Or to recommend their lawn service. Or to ask if that might have been a rat they saw scurrying into the thickets. Or, if you live in that sort of neighborhood, to ask if you are trying to establish a meadow (or to get rid of an existing one). By the way, a lawn spangled with crocus looks a lot like a lawn spangled with fast food debris and gum and candy wrappers. Jim McKenney jimmckenney@starpower.net Montgomery County, Maryland, USA, USDA zone 7, where each year during crocus season the Sugar Plum Fairy dumps her rejects and production over-run all over our front lawn. From dells@voicenet.com Wed Sep 1 18:37:05 2004 Message-Id: From: Dell Sherk Subject: Pacific BX 73 Date: Wed, 01 Sep 2004 18:40:14 -0400 I have received your order. Best wishes, Dell --Dell Sherk, Director, Pacific BX From dells@voicenet.com Wed Sep 1 18:49:04 2004 Message-Id: From: Dell Sherk Subject: PACIFIC BX 73 CLOSED Date: Wed, 01 Sep 2004 18:52:10 -0400 PACKAGES SHOULD GO OUT BY THE WEEKEND. Enjoy, Dell --Dell Sherk, Director, Pacific BX From janemcgary@earthlink.net Wed Sep 1 20:05:01 2004 Message-Id: <5.2.1.1.0.20040901155155.0150f298@mail.earthlink.net> From: Jane McGary Subject: bulbs in lawns Date: Wed, 01 Sep 2004 16:03:40 -0700 I think Jim McKenney is being too harsh about the appearance of crocuses in lawns. Of course, in western North America our lawns are on a different schedule -- brown in summer and green in winter, unless the owner waters them a whole lot -- and we don't grow zoysia. Here I think it is basically perennial ryegrass. I don't have any fall crocuses in the lawn because I mow it into November. The best species for spring is C. tommasinianus, because its leaves tend to spread out horizontally, and you can mow the lawn without cutting off too much of the crocus foliage before it ripens. If you invest in the named varieties in deep purple shades, they are quite pretty. I find that rodents don't go after crocuses in grass as badly as they do when the bulbs are in a border. The only other bulbs I have in grass are Narcissus obvallaris (the English wild daffodil) and some Narcissus 'Jenny', and Ornithogalum umbellatum; these are in patches around which I mow until the foliage withers, as Jim Shields described, but they're down in a sort of hollow off to the side of the main garden, not on the front lawn. There is a public garden in Portland, Oregon, called Bishop's Close (it was the Episcopal Church headquarters at one time) where Crocus tommasinianus, Eranthis hyemalis, and Anemone blanda are extensively naturalized in grass. I'm not sure what the mowing schedule is there. Rock gardening books often recommend planting naturally small, slow-growing alpine grasses as a setting for alpine meadow plants. I haven't yet found a grass that will both survive and stay within bounds, so haven't experimented with such a planting. One thing I'd like to do someday: I have a little circular lawn on a terrace behind the house, now studded with crocuses in spring. I think I could grow other flowering plants in small plastic mesh pots and pop them into holes made in the turf with a bulb planter (I have some pots the right size), and lift them out when I needed to mow. It would be labor-intensive, but it would look like a millefleurs tapestry. Maybe when I'm an old lady in a little house with a tiny lawn! Jane McGary Northwestern Oregon, USA >Jim Shields has opened a topic on which I would like to expand. Who else >grows bulbs in the lawn? I do, but I'm not sure I would recommend it to >anyone who is sensitive to criticism from the neighbors. > >Here in Maryland it was a particular temptation because we have a zoysia >lawn. For those of you who don't know it, zoysia (the genus Zoysia has >several members but only one is important in this area) is what is >sometimes called a warm-weather grass. It's green and growing roughly >between May and September. From October through April it's brown (light tan >actually). In other words, the growth cycle of the zoysia lawn compliments >that of vernal bulbs and fall crocus perfectly. > >That big expanse of zoysia was so tempting that I jumped in very >enthusiastically and planted Chionodoxa, Galanthus elwesii and Crocus >speciosus by the thousand. > >It's hardly been trouble free. The squirrels ate about 2/3 of the crocus >during the first few weeks. They don't seem to have touched them since >(several years). The local squirrels rarely touch established Crocus >speciosus, but newly planted corms are another matter. > >Going into this, I thought the long fall-winter dormancy of the zoysia >would make this planting of bulbs in grass a carefree delight. I would mow >the zoysia routinely until early September; then allow the autumn crocus to >bloom; then give the zoysia a last hard mowing around Thanksgiving to keep >it tidy looking during the winter. (I've noticed that that word 'tidy' is >often associated in some way or another with various horticultural >lamentations). The snowdrops and glories of the snow would bloom and ripen >before the zoysia became active. Once seed was collected and they were out >of the way, regular mowing would be resumed sometime in May. > >It looked great on paper. > >I had not taken into account the profusion of lusty winter-growing weeds. >Now I understand so well the meaning of the word opportunistic. Where in >the world did all those weedy Cardamine, Stellaria, Draba, Ranunculus, >Erigeron, Allium and others suddenly come from? Our soil bank must be the >Fort Knox of soil banks. > >In over forty years of mowing that zoysia lawn, I never noticed these gate >crashers in such profusion. Had they been lurking all that time? Zoysia >lawns take a long time to become established; typically, some clumps of >other lawn grasses remain here and there until they give up. Because of the >presence of those cool season grasses, the zoysia lawn was mowed >occasionally in the off season. That evidently was enough to obscure the >presence of the weed hoards. Zoysia forms such a thick turf that it >competes successfully with almost anything else as long as it gets plenty >of sun. It will get by on infrequent mowing, although to keep the >putting-green look regular mowing is essential. > >In other words, if you are sitting around thinking how charming the lawn >would look spangled with crocus or snowdrops, get a grip: it's an >invitation to a real mess. Neighbors you barely know will stop by to ask >when you will be baling the hay. Or to offer the use of their lawn mower. >Or to recommend their lawn service. Or to ask if that might have been a rat >they saw scurrying into the thickets. Or, if you live in that sort of >neighborhood, to ask if you are trying to establish a meadow (or to get rid >of an existing one). > >By the way, a lawn spangled with crocus looks a lot like a lawn spangled >with fast food debris and gum and candy wrappers. > >Jim McKenney >jimmckenney@starpower.net >Montgomery County, Maryland, USA, USDA zone 7, where each year during >crocus season the Sugar Plum Fairy dumps her rejects and production >over-run all over our front lawn. > > > >_______________________________________________ >pbs mailing list >pbs@lists.ibiblio.org >http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php From voltaire@islandnet.com Wed Sep 1 21:01:51 2004 Message-Id: From: Diane Whitehead Subject: bulbs in lawns Date: Wed, 1 Sep 2004 18:01:49 -0700 There was a garden here which was worth a detour because in spring the front lawn was covered in Erythronium oregonum, and huge old potted fuchsias would be wheeled out and set around the edge for the summer. The lawn wasn't mowed till the erythronium leaves died back. The fuchsias each had a sign with its date of "birth" on it, and it was interesting for children to see plants that had been growing since before their parents were born. After forty years or so, the owners must have died, because the fuchsias disappeared. The erythroniums lasted a couple of years longer, but the new owners were unaware of the necessity of postponing the mower, and now it is just a plain boring lawn. -- Diane Whitehead Victoria, British Columbia, Canada maritime zone 8 cool mediterranean climate (dry summer, rainy winter - 68 cm annually) sandy soil From jwaddick@kc.rr.com Thu Sep 2 00:01:13 2004 Message-Id: From: James Waddick Subject: Shock and Awe - Crinum Date: Wed, 1 Sep 2004 20:04:40 -0500 Dear friends. After about 2 months, actually more, my half dozen or so Crinum have collectively put out their last bloom of the season. 2 'Ellen Bousanquet' and a single 'Catherine', all three from late stalks. On the same day and while juggling a few pots, I was shocked to see a single pink and white flower atop a bare stem. After years and years of growing various, numerous cvs, here was a fully open flower of Amaryllis belladonna. The label identified this as one of the BX offering from the late Les Hannibal. A single bulb in a gallon pot. This is an odd growing season -much cooler and wetter then usual with no temps to 100 and a couple of mornings in the low 50s; even rainfall most of the summer (I have weeds to prove it). The second day another bud is almost open and there are at least a couple more on the head. No others show any sign of blooming. It is a very fine flower with pink veins and white background somewhat like the wiki picture of Hannibal selections labelled MLH 14 and MLH 23 . Very nice I must admit. Now what do I do. I have been giving away pots of non-blooming Amaryllis and now this pops up. Will it ever bloom again or just the odd summer? As I said Shock and Awe. Jim W. -- Dr. James W. Waddick 8871 NW Brostrom Rd. Kansas City Missouri 64152-2711 USA Ph. 816-746-1949 E-fax 419-781-8594 Zone 5 Record low -23F Summer 100F + From ken@wildlanders.com Wed Sep 1 21:58:27 2004 Message-Id: <41361B01.14335.1604804@localhost> From: ken@wildlanders.com Subject: miners supplies - sieves Date: Wed, 01 Sep 2004 18:54:57 -0700 Thanks Jane. Sorry about the Tarzan thang. No offense was intended. I just needed to let lose with all the pressures here. You probably get a lot of that and so I do apologize. Besides native plants, I am a rock hound at heart too. So beside the seives, there are other things I am sure I will find there. Thanks again. -Ken ken@wildlanders.com Bimonthly Newsletter Native Plants and Wildlife: The Pacific Northwest and the Inland Empire http://www.wildlanders.com/wildlanders/aaaasp/home/newsletter.asp > > The company that I get my "miner's" garden tools from is in Portland, > Oregon, but they also have Internet sales: > www.dk-nugget.com > > They have the excellent one-piece plus rubber handle stainless steel > trowels in a number of sizes, metal sieves that are very sturdy, and > larger-mesh indestructible PVC sieves that I use for soil that I mix in my > bulb potting compost. Also, a large range of topographic maps of the US > West, and books on various subjects, and geologist's hammers and so on. > > Jane McGary > From voltaire@islandnet.com Thu Sep 2 00:47:28 2004 Message-Id: From: Diane Whitehead Subject: bulbs in lawns; weeds Date: Wed, 1 Sep 2004 21:47:20 -0700 Michigan State University has had a weed seed germination experiment going on since 1879. Bottles with a mix of weed seeds were buried and are dug up on a regular basis to see which seeds will germinate. The latest bottle produced only Moth Mullein, Verbascum blattaria, from 120 year old seed. http://newsbulletin.msu.edu/july27/beal.html Five of the original 20 bottles remain buried, and the next one to be dug up and tested will be in 2020. Diane Whitehead From samclan@redshift.com Thu Sep 2 01:12:38 2004 Message-Id: <4136ACAF.8090606@redshift.com> From: Shirley Meneice Subject: bulbs in lawns; was: Re: [pbs] Lycoris passeth, Cochicum cometh, the seasons march along Date: Wed, 01 Sep 2004 22:16:31 -0700 Amen! And I have only gone for Sisyrinchiums, S. californicum, S. angustifolium, S. bellum and S. striatum.. I had already obliterated most of the lawn with raised planter beds but these little bulbs with their grassy foliage seemed a perfect addition. The foliage may be described as grass-like, but they really mean crab-grass-like. Now if they would just learn to bloom at the perfect time! They bloom in late August for me -- if no one mows after July 15 or so. At least they don't demand a lot of water -- a commodity which is in short supply around here. Shirley Meneice, Pebble Beach where you can buy an acre foot of water for your garden for only $200,000. Jim McKenney wrote: >Jim Shields has opened a topic on which I would like to expand. Who else >grows bulbs in the lawn? I do, but I'm not sure I would recommend it to >anyone who is sensitive to criticism from the neighbors. > >Here in Maryland it was a particular temptation because we have a zoysia >lawn. For those of you who don't know it, zoysia (the genus Zoysia has >several members but only one is important in this area) is what is >sometimes called a warm-weather grass. It's green and growing roughly >between May and September. From October through April it's brown (light tan >actually). In other words, the growth cycle of the zoysia lawn compliments >that of vernal bulbs and fall crocus perfectly. > >That big expanse of zoysia was so tempting that I jumped in very >enthusiastically and planted Chionodoxa, Galanthus elwesii and Crocus >speciosus by the thousand. > >It's hardly been trouble free. The squirrels ate about 2/3 of the crocus >during the first few weeks. They don't seem to have touched them since >(several years). The local squirrels rarely touch established Crocus >speciosus, but newly planted corms are another matter. > >Going into this, I thought the long fall-winter dormancy of the zoysia >would make this planting of bulbs in grass a carefree delight. I would mow >the zoysia routinely until early September; then allow the autumn crocus to >bloom; then give the zoysia a last hard mowing around Thanksgiving to keep >it tidy looking during the winter. (I've noticed that that word 'tidy' is >often associated in some way or another with various horticultural >lamentations). The snowdrops and glories of the snow would bloom and ripen >before the zoysia became active. Once seed was collected and they were out >of the way, regular mowing would be resumed sometime in May. > >It looked great on paper. > >I had not taken into account the profusion of lusty winter-growing weeds. >Now I understand so well the meaning of the word opportunistic. Where in >the world did all those weedy Cardamine, Stellaria, Draba, Ranunculus, >Erigeron, Allium and others suddenly come from? Our soil bank must be the >Fort Knox of soil banks. > >In over forty years of mowing that zoysia lawn, I never noticed these gate >crashers in such profusion. Had they been lurking all that time? Zoysia >lawns take a long time to become established; typically, some clumps of >other lawn grasses remain here and there until they give up. Because of the >presence of those cool season grasses, the zoysia lawn was mowed >occasionally in the off season. That evidently was enough to obscure the >presence of the weed hoards. Zoysia forms such a thick turf that it >competes successfully with almost anything else as long as it gets plenty >of sun. It will get by on infrequent mowing, although to keep the >putting-green look regular mowing is essential. > >In other words, if you are sitting around thinking how charming the lawn >would look spangled with crocus or snowdrops, get a grip: it's an >invitation to a real mess. Neighbors you barely know will stop by to ask >when you will be baling the hay. Or to offer the use of their lawn mower. >Or to recommend their lawn service. Or to ask if that might have been a rat >they saw scurrying into the thickets. Or, if you live in that sort of >neighborhood, to ask if you are trying to establish a meadow (or to get rid >of an existing one). > >By the way, a lawn spangled with crocus looks a lot like a lawn spangled >with fast food debris and gum and candy wrappers. > >Jim McKenney >jimmckenney@starpower.net >Montgomery County, Maryland, USA, USDA zone 7, where each year during >crocus season the Sugar Plum Fairy dumps her rejects and production >over-run all over our front lawn. > > > >_______________________________________________ >pbs mailing list >pbs@lists.ibiblio.org >http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php > > > > From ken@wildlanders.com Thu Sep 2 03:55:50 2004 Message-Id: <41366EB9.1136.62C608@localhost> From: ken@wildlanders.com Subject: Article on seed collection RE: bags and methods for collecting seed Date: Thu, 02 Sep 2004 00:52:09 -0700 I am going to put an article together for the various methods and materials of collecting seed long term with bag like materials (as well as any other methods that might be out there). I want to include the methods, costs, etc. A lot of folks have shared info here so I will compile it into an article that can be filed and retrieved when needed (so you do not have to search innumberable forums and archives). If you will allow me to quote you, please let me know or post privately to me. Newsletter and email are in my signature below. Kenneth J. Boettger Owner and General Manager Alpine WildSeed http://www.wildlanders.com/members/aws All Green Thumbs http://www.wildlanders.com/wildlanders/aaaasp/agt/agt.asp ken@wildlanders.com Bimonthly Newsletter Native Plants and Wildlife: The Pacific Northwest and the Inland Empire http://www.wildlanders.com/wildlanders/aaaasp/home/newsletter.asp From hamish.sloan@virgin.net Fri Sep 3 15:54:18 2004 Message-Id: <01C491F7.3C87D120.hamish.sloan@virgin.net> From: Hamish Sloan Subject: bulbs in lawns; weeds Date: Thu, 2 Sep 2004 11:03:10 +0100 Remember: "In Flanders fields, the poppies grow" and those poppy seeds could have survived under ground for over 1000 years. It has become fairly common over here for arable farmers to use ploughing contractors. A good way tolose a contract is to plough just that bit too deep and penetrate the pan of soil that has not been to the surface for years. I have seen an example where this happened and the farmer was irate. (There are special ploughs used from time to time to break the pan for drainage that do not bring the subsoil tothe surface.) Temperature appears to be the factor. It's warmer nearer the surface. Were the bottles set at various levels? Regards Hamish -----Original Message----- Michigan State University has had a weed seed germination experiment going on since 1879. Bottles with a mix of weed seeds were buried and are dug up on a regular basis to see which seeds will germinate. The latest bottle produced only Moth Mullein, Verbascum blattaria, from 120 year old seed. http://newsbulletin.msu.edu/july27/beal.html Five of the original 20 bottles remain buried, and the next one to be dug up and tested will be in 2020. Diane Whitehead From totototo@pacificcoast.net Mon Aug 30 15:30:37 2004 Message-Id: From: "Rodger Whitlock" Subject: bulbs from Costco Date: Mon, 30 Aug 2004 12:35:13 -700 On 30 Aug 04 at 8:01, Diane Whitehead wrote: > The garden centres here have had large bins of "King Alfred" for > sale for a week or so, but they are from our local fields. The > bulbs might be any of about a half dozen cultivars, but everyone > knows the name "King Alfred" so they use it. These are extras from > the cutflower fields which get dug up during the summer, the bulbs > sorted, some replanted in fallow fields, and the extras sold at low > prices. I would not be surprised if these bulbs were widely distributed across North America. The "King Alfred" daffodils Judy Glattstein saw in "sticky icky humid New Jersey" may very well come from BC. As Diane says, that there's no telling what cultivar you are actually getting. I've heard remarks to the effect that the real King Alfred is long gone and anything now sold under that name is some other cultivar; very similar to KA, yes, but not the same. There is some reason to be leery of overly cheap daffodils, as they may be infested with bulb fly, nematodes, or viruses. -- Rodger Whitlock Victoria, British Columbia, Canada "To co-work is human, to cow-ork, bovine." From jwaddick@kc.rr.com Thu Sep 2 09:40:58 2004 Message-Id: From: James Waddick Subject: Special Crinum BX Shipped Date: Thu, 2 Sep 2004 08:25:29 -0500 Dear Friends; Have shipped nearly 70 lbs of Crinum and the last two will go today. The first might arrive today. Will probably total around 90 lbs of Crinum have gone out.! I suggest planting at least 12 inches from bottom of bulbs to soil surface in cold climates and mulch well the first winter. Everyone enjoy. Jim W. -- Dr. James W. Waddick 8871 NW Brostrom Rd. Kansas City Missouri 64152-2711 USA Ph. 816-746-1949 E-fax 419-781-8594 Zone 5 Record low -23F Summer 100F + From jwaddick@kc.rr.com Thu Sep 2 09:41:01 2004 Message-Id: From: James Waddick Subject: Bulbs in lawns Date: Thu, 2 Sep 2004 08:36:54 -0500 Dear All; I have three "bulb lawns". We started with a gently sloping s-w facing area with Reticulata iris, these did great until the retics dwindled. Now others do better in more shade. Next came Crocus, but these were removed by the tree rats* These have gradually been replaced by a combination of Anemone blanda (mostly 'White Splendor') and Chinodoxa. These do great. No mowing until foliage dies back. Not too long or unsightly. In a more westerly and more sloping site there's about 800 mixed(but named) daffodils. These do great and have multiplied well. They keep foliage for an awfully long time, but the area is not visible from the street and we just wait til foliage yellows to mow. This used to be in Crocus, but the tree rats ate almost every one. Now the remainder seem to flourish in between the daffodils. I think the daffs repel the 'taste sampling' of the tree rats. We have added some more- mostly C. sieberi 'Firefly' and 'Tricolor'. Along a fifty foot or so concrete walkway we have both sides lined with Crocus tomasinianus, but the tree rats have made this very sparse. This all seems to point out that most of these bulbs do fine in grass, but natural barriers: tree rats, climate extremes have forced alternate and successful plantings. Last year we under-planted a lightly shaded area with 'blue shades' of Anemone blanda and loved the color mix. Need another 500 or so bulbs. I'd give high praise to a bulb lawn if you don't mind more - or less- grassy mess (and a few weeds, but not excessive). Best Jim W. * tree rats are also known as grey squirrels, but this is too kind and avoids calling a rat a rat! -- Dr. James W. Waddick 8871 NW Brostrom Rd. Kansas City Missouri 64152-2711 USA Ph. 816-746-1949 E-fax 419-781-8594 Zone 5 Record low -23F Summer 100F + From btankers@chicagobotanic.org Thu Sep 2 10:01:58 2004 Message-Id: <915BA069E411684D80859B117CBFE5722552D6@cbgnt.chicagobotanic.org> From: "Boyce Tankersley" Subject: Bulbs in lawns Date: Thu, 2 Sep 2004 09:03:00 -0500 I came to admire bulbs naturalized in lawns in Scotland during a year-long internship at Threave School of Practical Gardening, run by the National Trust. Nothing quite so spectacular as white and gold crocus and the delicate snowdrops with the fog just starting to lift off of the (almost always) green lawns. Upon return to the sunny southwestern USA with continental climatic extremes (0 - 112 degrees F), those ethereal whites and yellows basically disappeared when planted in the bermudagrass (warm season) lawn. Not to be denied, I substituted Ophiopogon for turf grass. The dark evergreen leaves were the perfect background to accentuate the lighter colored flowers in spring. The size and height of the foliage also complemented the foliage of many of the smaller bulbs. The groundcover and bulbs coexisted for a number of years with no maintenance except for a trim to the Ophiopogon to encourage it to fill in. I visit rarely these days and almost always around the holidays. I believe the Ophiopogon has out-competed the bulbs. When exactly over the last 30 years the bulbs died out I can't tell. Still, with perhaps more maintanence than a simple planting and occassional mow of the Ophiopogon during the formative years I suspect a better balance could have been reached. For at least the first seven years the effect was what I was trying to achieve. Unfortunately, Ophiopogon is not hardy in Chicago. Boyce Tankersley btankers@chicagobotanic.org From rarebulbs@earthlink.net Thu Sep 2 13:51:28 2004 Message-Id: <001001c49115$7653a330$e9aa79a5@DJ9SK221> From: "diana chapman" Subject: Article on seed collection RE: bags and methods forcollecting seed Date: Thu, 2 Sep 2004 10:51:22 -0700 Hi Ken: I tried to send you a private e-mail twice, but it bounced back both times. Of course, you have my permission to quote me on the tea bag method. Best. Diana ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Thursday, September 02, 2004 12:52 AM Subject: [pbs] Article on seed collection RE: bags and methods forcollecting seed > I am going to put an article together for the various methods and materials of > collecting seed long term with bag like materials (as well as any other methods that > might be out there). I want to include the methods, costs, etc. A lot of folks have > shared info here so I will compile it into an article that can be filed and retrieved > when needed (so you do not have to search innumberable forums and archives). If > you will allow me to quote you, please let me know or post privately to me. > Newsletter and email are in my signature below. > > Kenneth J. Boettger > Owner and General Manager > Alpine WildSeed > http://www.wildlanders.com/members/aws > All Green Thumbs > http://www.wildlanders.com/wildlanders/aaaasp/agt/agt.asp > ken@wildlanders.com > Bimonthly Newsletter > Native Plants and Wildlife: The Pacific Northwest and the Inland Empire > http://www.wildlanders.com/wildlanders/aaaasp/home/newsletter.asp > > _______________________________________________ > pbs mailing list > pbs@lists.ibiblio.org > http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php From aquaflorasa@telkomsa.net Thu Sep 2 17:51:51 2004 Message-Id: <003b01c49137$0b80b670$21a1ef9b@p7d1p2> From: "aquaflora" Subject: New member intro Date: Thu, 2 Sep 2004 23:51:45 +0200 Hi there, Like most of you I have been bitten by the amaryllis caterpillar and contracted a passion for bulbs! I am particularly passionate about Scadoxus but also grow Cyrtanthus, Clivia, Eucomis, Cryptostephanus etc. I am fortunate enough to live in South Africa, where I have wide access to some of the most beautiful bulbous species! I am probably the youngest bulb enthusiast I know, and the only one in my school! I would like to use this opportunity to enquire what other species of Scadoxus you are growing? I have all of the South African species including a couple of S.pole-evansii seedlings and would love to trade for material of among others Scadoxus nutans, cinnabarinus and cyrtanthiflorus. Happy bulb growing Pieter van der Walt From mark@marksgardenplants.com Thu Sep 2 19:44:46 2004 Message-Id: <00dc01c49146$dd4a0350$4a259a51@markp5xpcz3p3u> From: "Mark Smyth" Subject: New member intro Date: Fri, 3 Sep 2004 00:45:01 +0100 hi Pieter, greetings from the Emerald Isle Mark N Ireland From susanann@sbcglobal.net Thu Sep 2 21:47:15 2004 Message-Id: From: Susan Hayek Subject: Rats vs rats Date: Thu, 2 Sep 2004 16:48:07 -0700 >I seem to recall from the halcyon days of my undergraduate studies >in Pasadena, California that the palms lining some streets were (so >the story goes) infested with "tree rats." Allegedly, these would >set up housekeeping in the tangle of dead fronds near the top of >each palm. **I believe the tree rats in Pasadena are real rats not squirrels. Southern CA is a perfect place for rats to reside. The weather is nice, there's plenty of food to eat (oranges and other fruits year round), and the estates in the wealthy areas make for perfect cover (with a pool, no less). We have rats up here (real ones), but they are not so interested in my bulbs as in the chicken house. They live in the brush piles and the brambles. Ucky. -- susan, who is..... owned by Jasper & Schubert the Standard Poodles, Gracie the Rhodesian, Pup-Quiz the Basenji and their Basenji brother, Jones.... on the North Coast of CA, USA Zone 9 susanann@sbcglobal.net, copyright 2004 From plants_man@bigpond.com Thu Sep 2 21:17:47 2004 Message-Id: <005701c49153$cf9ca840$81fa8690@magdash> From: "Daryl Geoghegan" Subject: New member intro Date: Fri, 3 Sep 2004 11:17:41 +1000 Hi Pieter, welcome to the list from Australia. I am also an Amaryllid Fan. What a terrific Family of bulbs! Best wishes, Dash. Daryl 'Dash' Geoghegan, Mainly Amaryllids Garden, P O Box 173, Barnawartha, Victoria, 3688, Australia. +61 02 60267377, Mobile 0429 621 612 Visit my web site @ http://www.mainlyamaryllidsgarden.com ------------------------------------------------- ----- Original Message ----- From: "aquaflora" To: Sent: Friday, September 03, 2004 7:51 AM Subject: [pbs] New member intro Hi there, Like most of you I have been bitten by the amaryllis caterpillar and contracted a passion for bulbs! I am particularly passionate about Scadoxus but also grow Cyrtanthus, Clivia, Eucomis, Cryptostephanus etc. I am fortunate enough to live in South Africa, where I have wide access to some of the most beautiful bulbous species! I am probably the youngest bulb enthusiast I know, and the only one in my school! I would like to use this opportunity to enquire what other species of Scadoxus you are growing? I have all of the South African species including a couple of S.pole-evansii seedlings and would love to trade for material of among others Scadoxus nutans, cinnabarinus and cyrtanthiflorus. Happy bulb growing Pieter van der Walt _______________________________________________ pbs mailing list pbs@lists.ibiblio.org http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php From arnold@nj.rr.com Thu Sep 2 21:21:38 2004 Message-Id: <4137C71F.30609@nj.rr.com> From: Arnold Trachtenberg Subject: Bulbs in lawns Date: Thu, 02 Sep 2004 21:21:35 -0400 Actually Rodger I think that they are real rats in the Washington palms in LA. Just read a study done by the NYC Dept. of pest control that the Bronx has 5 rats for every resident. Arnold New Jersey ( separated by a big river from the Bronx) From arlen.jose@verizon.net Thu Sep 2 21:21:45 2004 Message-Id: From: "arlen jose" Subject: New member intro Date: Thu, 2 Sep 2004 21:21:39 -0400 Dear Pieter Warm greetings from Cambridge (Boston) Mass. I envy your good fortune to live in one of the most beautiful places on earth and to have access to so many fantastic bulbs. I remember when I was very young, much like yourself, when I was "bitten" but the bulb bug, only I had to contend with the limited varieties we had available in this region of the U.S. at that time. Luckily, we now live in a vastly different and wonderful time where we have virtual access to the whole planet and a support group of other "bulb nuts". Welcome to our group. Fred Biasella USDA Zone 6b Hi there, Like most of you I have been bitten by the amaryllis caterpillar and contracted a passion for bulbs! I am particularly passionate about Scadoxus but also grow Cyrtanthus, Clivia, Eucomis, Cryptostephanus etc. I am fortunate enough to live in South Africa, where I have wide access to some of the most beautiful bulbous species! I am probably the youngest bulb enthusiast I know, and the only one in my school! I would like to use this opportunity to enquire what other species of Scadoxus you are growing? I have all of the South African species including a couple of S.pole-evansii seedlings and would love to trade for material of among others Scadoxus nutans, cinnabarinus and cyrtanthiflorus. Happy bulb growing Pieter van der Walt _______________________________________________ pbs mailing list pbs@lists.ibiblio.org http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php From Steve.Burger@choa.org Thu Sep 2 21:33:20 2004 Message-Id: <0BAB7B6F7D5A53418C3B75FA01DE2BED0550F9A2@CHOAMAIL4.choa.org> From: "Burger, Steve" Subject: Hello Date: Thu, 2 Sep 2004 21:33:15 -0400 Hey there, My name is Steve and I'm a plantaholic. Actually I'm a crinumaholic. I just signed up for the list yesterday and I'm psyched to read about bulbs from folks as enthused as I am. BTW Other plants of interest...Palms, Gingers, aroids and anything that flowers when other people's landscapes look dreadful ( I live in Georgia, USA so by late July most people's gardens look tired). Glad to be joining Y'all, Steve From c-mueller@tamu.edu Thu Sep 2 21:39:58 2004 Message-Id: From: "Cynthia Mueller" Subject: Hello Date: Thu, 02 Sep 2004 20:39:20 -0500 Hello, Steve...we're all glad to meet you, and hope to hear your stories from time to time...don't just talk about crinums, talk about your other collectibles, too. Cynthia W. Mueller College Station, TX Zone 8b-9 >>> Steve.Burger@choa.org 9/2/04 8:33:15 PM >>> Hey there, My name is Steve and I'm a plantaholic. Actually I'm a crinumaholic. I just signed up for the list yesterday and I'm psyched to read about bulbs from folks as enthused as I am. BTW Other plants of interest...Palms, Gingers, aroids and anything that flowers when other people's landscapes look dreadful ( I live in Georgia, USA so by late July most people's gardens look tired). Glad to be joining Y'all, Steve _______________________________________________ pbs mailing list pbs@lists.ibiblio.org http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php From plants_man@bigpond.com Thu Sep 2 21:40:21 2004 Message-Id: <00cf01c49156$f6449040$81fa8690@magdash> From: "Daryl Geoghegan" Subject: Hello Date: Fri, 3 Sep 2004 11:40:14 +1000 Hi there Steve, welcome ot the list. Can you tell us more about you Crinum collection? Best wishes, Dash. Daryl 'Dash' Geoghegan, Mainly Amaryllids Garden, P O Box 173, Barnawartha, Victoria, 3688, Australia. +61 02 60267377, Mobile 0429 621 612 Visit my web site @ http://www.mainlyamaryllidsgarden.com ------------------------------------------------- ----- Original Message ----- From: "Burger, Steve" To: Sent: Friday, September 03, 2004 11:33 AM Subject: [pbs] Hello Hey there, My name is Steve and I'm a plantaholic. Actually I'm a crinumaholic. I just signed up for the list yesterday and I'm psyched to read about bulbs from folks as enthused as I am. BTW Other plants of interest...Palms, Gingers, aroids and anything that flowers when other people's landscapes look dreadful ( I live in Georgia, USA so by late July most people's gardens look tired). Glad to be joining Y'all, Steve _______________________________________________ pbs mailing list pbs@lists.ibiblio.org http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php From scamp@earthlink.net Thu Sep 2 21:48:32 2004 Message-Id: <410-220049531483810@earthlink.net> From: "Christine Council" Subject: Hello Date: Thu, 2 Sep 2004 21:48:38 -0400 Hi Steve: I am Chris Council, fairly new to plants; as in I have no idea what I am doing. Everyone in the group is helpful and knowledgeable. Welcome to a fun group. Chris > [Original Message] > From: Burger, Steve > To: > Date: 9/2/2004 9:33:23 PM > Subject: [pbs] Hello > > Hey there, > > My name is Steve and I'm a plantaholic. Actually I'm a crinumaholic. I just signed up for the list yesterday and I'm psyched to read about bulbs from folks as enthused as I am. BTW Other plants of interest...Palms, Gingers, aroids and anything that flowers when other people's landscapes look dreadful ( I live in Georgia, USA so by late July most people's gardens look tired). > > Glad to be joining Y'all, > > Steve > _______________________________________________ > pbs mailing list > pbs@lists.ibiblio.org > http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php From ConroeJoe@aol.com Thu Sep 2 21:50:06 2004 Message-Id: From: ConroeJoe@aol.com Subject: Albuca Date: Thu, 2 Sep 2004 21:50:00 EDT Hi, An email gardening friend send me 2-3 pieces of Albuca shawii. It has thrived here, reblooming and setting seed once I figured out I had to play the part of the bee. I like the plant and want to try some more Albuca species. Silverhill seeds has a number of types. So, which are the "easy" ones. Which are the plants that tolerate a rain in the wrong season? Are there any from seasonally moist/wet areas, or any from along streams and rivers? I grow a few South African winter bulbs in pots. When hot, humid weather arrives I put the pots away in my laundry room--air conditioned and dry. But, there I guess someday I'll have to do laundry, so I'm trying to keep away from plants that won't accept our year round conditions. Conroe Joe (90 F today, 72 F for tonight, drizzling with rain in the forecast) From scamp@earthlink.net Thu Sep 2 21:54:22 2004 Message-Id: <410-2200495315428354@earthlink.net> From: "Christine Council" Subject: New member intro Date: Thu, 2 Sep 2004 21:54:28 -0400 To all Newbies: Welcome, you will have a great time. I am still sort of new and am having the time of my life. Where else can one ask a single question and get so many great opinions and suggestions? I love it although my input is limited, I mostly ask questions and try to tell a joke or two. Bye, Chris > [Original Message] > From: arlen jose > To: Pacific Bulb Society > Date: 9/2/2004 9:22:03 PM > Subject: RE: [pbs] New member intro > > Dear Pieter > > Warm greetings from Cambridge (Boston) Mass. I envy your good fortune to > live in one of the most beautiful places on earth and to have access to so > many fantastic bulbs. > > I remember when I was very young, much like yourself, when I was "bitten" > but the bulb bug, only I had to contend with the limited varieties we had > available in this region of the U.S. at that time. Luckily, we now live in a > vastly different and wonderful time where we have virtual access to the > whole planet and a support group of other "bulb nuts". > > Welcome to our group. > Fred Biasella > USDA Zone 6b > > > > Hi there, > > Like most of you I have been bitten by the amaryllis caterpillar and > contracted a passion for bulbs! I am particularly passionate about Scadoxus > but also grow Cyrtanthus, Clivia, Eucomis, Cryptostephanus etc. > > I am fortunate enough to live in South Africa, where I have wide access to > some of the most beautiful bulbous species! I am probably the youngest bulb > enthusiast I know, and the only one in my school! > > I would like to use this opportunity to enquire what other species of > Scadoxus you are growing? I have all of the South African species including > a couple of S.pole-evansii seedlings and would love to trade for material of > among others Scadoxus nutans, cinnabarinus and cyrtanthiflorus. > > Happy bulb growing > > Pieter van der Walt > _______________________________________________ > pbs mailing list > pbs@lists.ibiblio.org > http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php > > _______________________________________________ > pbs mailing list > pbs@lists.ibiblio.org > http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php From blweintraub1@earthlink.net Thu Sep 2 21:58:24 2004 Message-Id: <6.1.2.0.2.20040902195540.01d847f8@earthlink.net> From: Barbara Weintraub Subject: Going To ... San Diego Date: Thu, 02 Sep 2004 19:58:20 -0600 Greetings to All! I'm leaving for a week in north coastal San Diego county tomorrow. Actually, this is a fairly frequent trip as I visit family there. If I remember correctly, there are a few members in the area. I don't know how tight my schedule will be yet, but if I have time, would anyone like to meet and perhaps show off their garden? Thanks! - Barbara Leaf and Stone Barbara L. Weintraub Santa Fe, NM blweintraub1@earthlink.net From c-mueller@tamu.edu Thu Sep 2 22:04:11 2004 Message-Id: From: "Cynthia Mueller" Subject: Rats vs rats Date: Thu, 02 Sep 2004 21:03:14 -0500 .....>I seem to recall from the halcyon days of my undergraduate studies >in Pasadena, California that the palms lining some streets were (so >the story goes) infested with "tree rats." Allegedly, these would >set up housekeeping in the tangle of dead fronds near the top of >each palm.... Well, when I was a girl in South Pasadena, California, the palms were infested with English sparrows. Surely the two life forms can't coexist in the same palm tree....these tall specimens had huge caps of dead fronds and thatch, covered over with the adult version of English ivy - very different from the juvenile type below in the groundcover and flowerbeds. The adult ivy had much larger leaves, and long, dangling bouquets of sickly yellow-green blooms and pollen (said to be poisonous.) And, in Galveston and elsewhere along the Texas coastline, palm trees are said to be infested with "palmetto bugs" the largest and most vigorous of the roach tribe in Texas....several inches long....very spry.... It doesn't seem as though palm trees have had much good publicity. We have to admit, though, that the residents of palms - rats, English sparrows and palmetto bugs - are real go-getters. They can certainly survive almost anything. Cynthia W. Mueller From JYOURCH@nc.rr.com Thu Sep 2 22:10:48 2004 Message-Id: <0bda01c4915b$27ce4ee0$0200a8c0@Office> From: "Jay Yourch" Subject: Hello Date: Thu, 2 Sep 2004 22:10:16 -0400 Steve wrote: >My name is Steve and I'm a plantaholic. Actually I'm a crinumaholic. Hi Steve, Welcome! You will find other Crinumaholics here, including me. Regards, Jay Yourch Central North Carolina, USA From tglavich@sbcglobal.net Thu Sep 2 23:22:00 2004 Message-Id: <20040903032154.78554.qmail@web80804.mail.yahoo.com> From: Thomas Glavich Subject: Rats vs rats Date: Thu, 2 Sep 2004 20:21:54 -0700 (PDT) As a resident of Altadena, just north of Pasadena. Rats are Rats, and palms are notorious homes for them. Many palms have an ugly aluminum skirt about eye height to keep the rats out. Grey squirrels are here in abundance as well, but they don't seem to nest in palms much. I've seen them both running across the walls behind my house. We still have the sparrows, and in more recent times large flock of ferral parrots, screeching through the morning sky. Tom Cynthia Mueller wrote: .....>I seem to recall from the halcyon days of my undergraduate studies >in Pasadena, California that the palms lining some streets were (so >the story goes) infested with "tree rats." Allegedly, these would >set up housekeeping in the tangle of dead fronds near the top of >each palm.... Well, when I was a girl in South Pasadena, California, the palms were infested with English sparrows. Surely the two life forms can't coexist in the same palm tree....these tall specimens had huge caps of dead fronds and thatch, covered over with the adult version of English ivy - very different from the juvenile type below in the groundcover and flowerbeds. The adult ivy had much larger leaves, and long, dangling bouquets of sickly yellow-green blooms and pollen (said to be poisonous.) And, in Galveston and elsewhere along the Texas coastline, palm trees are said to be infested with "palmetto bugs" the largest and most vigorous of the roach tribe in Texas....several inches long....very spry.... It doesn't seem as though palm trees have had much good publicity. We have to admit, though, that the residents of palms - rats, English sparrows and palmetto bugs - are real go-getters. They can certainly survive almost anything. Cynthia W. Mueller _______________________________________________ pbs mailing list pbs@lists.ibiblio.org http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php From tglavich@sbcglobal.net Thu Sep 2 23:23:57 2004 Message-Id: <20040903032356.38834.qmail@web80802.mail.yahoo.com> From: Thomas Glavich Subject: Bulbs in lawns Date: Thu, 2 Sep 2004 20:23:56 -0700 (PDT) But the convention will be over tomorrow! (not sent to the list.) Arnold Trachtenberg wrote: Actually Rodger I think that they are real rats in the Washington palms in LA. Just read a study done by the NYC Dept. of pest control that the Bronx has 5 rats for every resident. Arnold New Jersey ( separated by a big river from the Bronx) _______________________________________________ pbs mailing list pbs@lists.ibiblio.org http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php From tglavich@sbcglobal.net Thu Sep 2 23:27:06 2004 Message-Id: <20040903032706.39324.qmail@web80802.mail.yahoo.com> From: Thomas Glavich Subject: My appologies to all that my last email my have offended. Date: Thu, 2 Sep 2004 20:27:06 -0700 (PDT) Sorry, It was not meant to go public. I'm just an ex New Yorker. Tom From susanann@sbcglobal.net Thu Sep 2 23:54:53 2004 Message-Id: From: Susan Hayek Subject: Rats vs rats Date: Thu, 2 Sep 2004 20:55:16 -0700 **Those rats that are really rats drive us crazy, scurrying about at night. We've had no problems, so far, with bulbs being eaten. We have had a problem with the bird feeding areas being hit nightly, and I wonder about the tomatoes. Are there any bulbs particularly affected by rodents? and are there any particularly untasty? We have such a bad gopher problem (Leon traps and traps; the dogs generally have more success) that a lot of our plants are planted in wire baskets. >As a resident of Altadena, just north of Pasadena. > >Rats are Rats, and palms are notorious homes for them. Many palms >have an ugly aluminum skirt about eye height to keep the rats out. >Grey squirrels are here in abundance as well, but they don't seem to >nest in palms much. I've seen them both running across the walls >behind my house. > >We still have the sparrows, and in more recent times large flock of >ferral parrots, screeching through the morning sky. > >Tom -- susan, who is..... owned by Jasper & Schubert the Standard Poodles, Gracie the Rhodesian, Pup-Quiz the Basenji and their Basenji brother, Jones.... on the North Coast of CA, USA susanann@sbcglobal.net, copyright 2004 From tglavich@sbcglobal.net Fri Sep 3 00:00:24 2004 Message-Id: <20040903040023.72790.qmail@web80810.mail.yahoo.com> From: Thomas Glavich Subject: Rats vs rats Date: Thu, 2 Sep 2004 21:00:23 -0700 (PDT) I grow other South African plants and Cacti, and I have a real problem every year or two with rats eating Lithops and the less spiny cacti. They can devestate a collection in a single night. There is nothing worse than coming out in the morning, and seeing a bite taken out of a show plant. I have had rats eat parts of some Ornithogalum. They never seem to finish! Tom Susan Hayek wrote: **Those rats that are really rats drive us crazy, scurrying about at night. We've had no problems, so far, with bulbs being eaten. We have had a problem with the bird feeding areas being hit nightly, and I wonder about the tomatoes. Are there any bulbs particularly affected by rodents? and are there any particularly untasty? We have such a bad gopher problem (Leon traps and traps; the dogs generally have more success) that a lot of our plants are planted in wire baskets. >As a resident of Altadena, just north of Pasadena. > >Rats are Rats, and palms are notorious homes for them. Many palms >have an ugly aluminum skirt about eye height to keep the rats out. >Grey squirrels are here in abundance as well, but they don't seem to >nest in palms much. I've seen them both running across the walls >behind my house. > >We still have the sparrows, and in more recent times large flock of >ferral parrots, screeching through the morning sky. > >Tom -- susan, who is..... owned by Jasper & Schubert the Standard Poodles, Gracie the Rhodesian, Pup-Quiz the Basenji and their Basenji brother, Jones.... on the North Coast of CA, USA susanann@sbcglobal.net, copyright 2004 _______________________________________________ pbs mailing list pbs@lists.ibiblio.org http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php From samclan@redshift.com Fri Sep 3 00:15:44 2004 Message-Id: <4137F0D3.1020703@redshift.com> From: Shirley Meneice Subject: Rats vs rats Date: Thu, 02 Sep 2004 21:19:31 -0700 Tom, guess what? Rats in Pebble Beach ate large quantities of new Camellias from Nuccio's in one night and made off with my aluminum name tags. Found them in their nest in the woodpile a day later. The rats are no longer with us! Neither are two of the Camellias. Shirley Meneice Thomas Glavich wrote: >I grow other South African plants and Cacti, and I have a real problem every year or two with rats eating Lithops and the less spiny cacti. They can devestate a collection in a single night. There is nothing worse than coming out in the morning, and seeing a bite taken out of a show plant. I have had rats eat parts of some Ornithogalum. They never seem to finish! > >Tom > >Susan Hayek wrote: >**Those rats that are really rats drive us crazy, scurrying about at night. >We've had no problems, so far, with bulbs being eaten. >We have had a problem with the bird feeding areas being hit nightly, >and I wonder about the tomatoes. > >Are there any bulbs particularly affected by rodents? and are there >any particularly untasty? > >We have such a bad gopher problem (Leon traps and traps; the dogs >generally have more success) that a lot of our plants are planted in >wire baskets. > > > > > > > >>As a resident of Altadena, just north of Pasadena. >> >>Rats are Rats, and palms are notorious homes for them. Many palms >>have an ugly aluminum skirt about eye height to keep the rats out. >>Grey squirrels are here in abundance as well, but they don't seem to >>nest in palms much. I've seen them both running across the walls >>behind my house. >> >>We still have the sparrows, and in more recent times large flock of >>ferral parrots, screeching through the morning sky. >> >>Tom >> >> > > > From susanann@sbcglobal.net Fri Sep 3 00:22:01 2004 Message-Id: From: Susan Hayek Subject: Rats vs rats Date: Thu, 2 Sep 2004 21:22:29 -0700 >Tom, guess what? Rats in Pebble Beach ate large quantities of new >Camellias from Nuccio's in one night and made off with my aluminum >name tags. Found them in their nest in the woodpile a day later. >The rats are no longer with us! Neither are two of the Camellias. > Shirley Meneice **how did you dispatch the rats? -- susan, who is..... owned by Jasper & Schubert the Standard Poodles, Gracie the Rhodesian, Pup-Quiz the Basenji and their Basenji brother, Jones.... on the North Coast of CA, USA susanann@sbcglobal.net, copyright 2004 From wpoulsen@pacbell.net Fri Sep 3 01:27:35 2004 Message-Id: From: Lee Poulsen Subject: Rats vs rats Date: Thu, 2 Sep 2004 22:27:31 -0700 Well, I lived in Pasadena for 8 years until about 5 years ago when I moved to a place 2 miles south of Pasadena. At my original place I had both tree rats and squirrels. I had a cat that was an excellent mouser, so although I would see the rats in the neighborhood (for example, using the power lines as a sort of freeway to get from one house to the next via the various trees), I never had any trouble from them. All I ever saw of them in my yard were dead ones at my doorstep when I got home from work left as "gifts" by my cat. The squirrels on the other hand were a horrible problem. There were pecan and oak trees in the neighbors' yards so they had plenty to eat. They never ate any of my plants or bulbs. What they would do, however, was pull the plants or growing bulbs out of the pots and put an acorn or pecan in the resulting hole and leave the plant to wither and die in the daytime sun. Apparently they were lazy squirrels and didn't want to go to the trouble of digging holes in the real ground! Each spring I still had to pull seedling oaks or pecans out of various random pots. On the other hand, I also had possums and no snail problems at that house because the possums would very carefully eat the snails without disturbing the plants. At this house, the first year some rats nearly decimated one particular genus of bulb (and I can't remember what it was, but I nearly lost all of them until I found a partially eaten one left on the surface of the pot so I hid the remaining pots). Then we got a dog who has become an excellent ratter. He has killed dozens of rats and is relentless once a new one decides to take up residence in our yard. He always gets his rat. However, either there are no possums in this neighborhood, or our dog scares them away, because I have a huge snail problem. I am constantly setting out snail bait virtually all year 'round. On the positive side, I've now learned all the species that are absolute delicacies to snails and keep them surrounded with snail bait year 'round. They eventually end up going after other species, but are not as voracious about it, so I get plenty of time to set out bait and they never decimate those. We also get the flocks of feral parrots all the time. They are merely raucously noisy; they never seem to land in any branches close to the ground where I can get a good look at them. (Unlike the time I was in Perth Australia in a park next to the Indian Ocean eating dinner when an enormous flock of rainbow lorikeets landed in all the trees and you could see all their rainbow colors flashing as they moved around!) Fortunately, we don't have any of the herds of feral peacocks that roam some of the neighborhoods not too far from here. --Lee Poulsen Pasadena area, California, USDA Zone 9-10 On Sep 2, 2004, at 4:33 PM, Rodger Whitlock wrote: > I seem to recall from the halcyon days of my undergraduate studies > in Pasadena, California that the palms lining some streets were (so > the story goes) infested with "tree rats." Allegedly, these would > set up housekeeping in the tangle of dead fronds near the top of > each palm. From susanann@sbcglobal.net Fri Sep 3 02:10:04 2004 Message-Id: From: Susan Hayek Subject: Rats vs rats vs cats vs dogs Date: Thu, 2 Sep 2004 23:10:31 -0700 >I had a cat that was an excellent mouser, so although I would see >the rats in the neighborhood (for example, using the power lines as >a sort of freeway to get from one house to the next via the various >trees), I never had any trouble from them. All I ever saw of them in >my yard were dead ones at my doorstep when I got home from work left >as "gifts" by my cat. **Fortunately we have 4 cats, bordering on feral after our move north. (Crating in the car overnight and for the 10 hour ride north made them very leery of their humans.) They help with the mice in the front. Unfortunately in our backyard live 5 dogs who would dearly love to chase cats. The dogs are better at gophers than the rats, altho' our girl Basenji tries. >The squirrels on the other hand were a horrible problem. There were >pecan and oak trees in the neighbors' yards so they had plenty to >eat. They never ate any of my plants or bulbs. What they would do, >however, was pull the plants or growing bulbs out of the pots and >put an acorn or pecan in the resulting hole and leave the plant to >wither and die in the daytime sun. **We had that problem of pulled plants in our last garden, but the culprits were raccoons and black birds. Here we occasionally have pulled and chomped plants, but the dogs are guilty, not the other varmints. The dogs have consumed rose bushes. >On the other hand, I also had possums and no snail problems at that >house because the possums would very carefully eat the snails >without disturbing the plants. **Aha...we also had possums but the snails/slugs remained alive and quite well. Obviously the possums didn't do their jobs. When we had ducks, our snail/slug population decreased, but so did some of our plants. Ducks tromp. And they sift and uproot. >dog scares them away, because I have a huge snail problem. I am >constantly setting out snail bait virtually all year 'round. On the >positive side, I've now learned all the species that are absolute >delicacies to snails and keep them surrounded with snail bait year >'round. **We can't use poison bait because of the dogs. Therefore the Corry's (sp?) snail bait is reserved for the large slugs in the front, and we rely on Sluggo (iron phosphate) in the back. Sluggo is expensive. We have a lot of little garter snakes (always taking me by surprise), and we encourage them hoping that they'll help with the slimy offenders. The dogs don't bother the garter snakes. Have seen nary a gopher snake here, or maybe we'd have less of a gopher problem. >Fortunately, we don't have any of the herds of feral peacocks that >roam some of the neighborhoods not too far from here. **We had peacocks at a local inn in our last hometown. Noisy beasties. They slowly disappeared. Our chickens would help with the snail/slugs but they'd be fodder for the dogs. They also draw the rats even tho' we lock up the chickens at night. We haven't managed the balance of nature here yet. -- susan, who is..... owned by Jasper & Schubert the Standard Poodles, Gracie the Rhodesian, Pup-Quiz the Basenji and their Basenji brother, Jones.... on the North Coast of CA, USA susanann@sbcglobal.net, copyright 2004 From totototo@pacificcoast.net Tue Aug 31 15:26:24 2004 Message-Id: From: "Rodger Whitlock" Subject: Tulip query Date: Tue, 31 Aug 2004 12:30:46 -700 On 31 Aug 04 at 0:32, Mark Smyth wrote: > I have been repotting bulbs recently and tonight was the turn of the > species Tulips. I know that they make a new bulb each year but most > of mine are now divided into two or three bulbs. Any ideas why they > would have done this? Will they bloom next spring? They are grown in > clay pots in a mixture of bought top soil grit and a slow release > fertilizer. Iris danfordiae is notorious for splitting into dozens of tiny bulblets that take years to reach flowering size -- unless it is planted very deeply in the soil. Your species tulips are behaving somewhat the same way. My guess is that these bulbs dig themselves very deeply into the soil in their natural habitat, so that there are mechanisms which say in effect, "Hey, I'm close to the surface, time to split up and multiply vegetatively instead of by seed." Soil temperatures or diurnal or seasonal fluctuation in temperature may be the determining factor. This isn't quite right, though. The usual commercial clone of I. danfordiae is a sterile triploid, and such bulbs often have the habit of multiplying vegetatively and flowering very little. In general, commercial clones of bulbs have been selected *because* they multiply well as bulbs; that is, because they split up freely. As for cultivation, try planting your tulips in very deep pots and then plunging these to the rim in soil or sand in a sunny position. Even better, build a raised bed for them and plant them out. Many bulbs are quite unhappy in pots; plant them out where have free root-run, and they're like children let out of school, happy and vigorous. A bed raised 30-40cm (12-16 inches) above grade suffices. Given the damp Irish climate, you may want to devise a rain cover to keep it dry in summer. -- Rodger Whitlock Victoria, British Columbia, Canada Maritime Zone 8, a cool Mediterranean climate on beautiful Vancouver Island From jshields104@insightbb.com Fri Sep 3 08:57:40 2004 Message-Id: <5.1.0.14.2.20040903075130.01cda8d0@pop.indy.net> From: "J.E. Shields" Subject: Hello Date: Fri, 03 Sep 2004 07:57:34 -0500 Welcome, Steve, from another Crinum addict. Tell us about your collection. I have an un-named pink (mis-named as Ellen Bosanquet) hybrid and a Louisiana garden variety bulbispermum blooming right now, with 'Catherine' due to open its first flowers momentarily. All these are in the ground here, more or less hardy. The 'Catherine' came from Roy Works in Tampa, FL, and the bulbispermum came from IBS SX seeds several years ago. Our thoughts and best wishes go out to our fellow bulb enthusiasts in Florida as Hurricane Frances bears down on them. Best regards, Jim Shields At 10:10 PM 9/2/2004 -0400, you wrote: >Steve wrote: > >My name is Steve and I'm a plantaholic. Actually I'm a crinumaholic. ************************************************* Jim Shields USDA Zone 5 Shields Gardens, Ltd. P.O. Box 92 WWW: http://www.shieldsgardens.com/ Westfield, Indiana 46074, USA Tel. ++1-317-867-3344 or toll-free 1-866-449-3344 in USA From Steve.Burger@choa.org Fri Sep 3 11:20:26 2004 Message-Id: <0BAB7B6F7D5A53418C3B75FA01DE2BED05FE1B80@CHOAMAIL4.choa.org> From: "Burger, Steve" Subject: Hello Date: Fri, 3 Sep 2004 11:19:19 -0400 Why don't I tell y'all about all of my plants of interest, even if some don't fall into the category of bulbs. I live in a SE US 7b/8a and I have what someone coined as "zonal denial". My theme is tropical so here it goes. Crinum oliganthum Crinum asiaticum Crinum erubescens-started with just a little bit 3 years ago, now I'm covered in it. I love it though. Crinum 'unknown pink cultivar I "borrowed" from a public planting' Crinum 'unknown white cultivar I "borrowed" from a public planting' And killed a Crinum americanum I'm looking to acquire many more this year including X Amarcrinum. I have a relatively new home and haven't had much time to collect. I also have... Lycoris "forget the species...garden variety red" Hippaestrum hybrids -various Crocus speciosus Tulipa 'cynthia' Several Colocasia Lots of gingers... Dyckia platyphylla X something seedlings (supposed to be pretty hardy, and I have it in a great microclimate) Ficus afghanistanica Musa basjoo M. sikkimensis 'red tiger' M. itinerans M. 'Raja Puri' M. 'Saba'- 16' of trunk and full of fruit and flowers, what a beauty M. velutina Jubaea chiliensis (unplanted) Washingtonia filifera Sabal bermudana Sabal minor Sabal minor Louisiana Sabal palmetto Rhapidophyllum hystrix Chamaedorea radicalis Trachycarpus fortunei Quercus myrsinifolia Bambusa 'Alphonse Karr' Phyllostachys heterocycla pubescens P. vivax P. nigra 'henon' Amorphophallus konjac (I think, good size with lots of offsets, but no flowers yet. Maybe next year.) ...and lots of other stuff and seeds coming along. Hope that wasn't too painful. BTW excuse the spelling I'm not really looking behind and spell check will barf on the botanical names. Steve Steve Burger Applications Analyst Children's Healthcare of Atlanta (404)785-3142 -----Original Message----- From: Daryl Geoghegan [mailto:plants_man@bigpond.com] Sent: Thursday, September 02, 2004 09:40 PM To: Pacific Bulb Society Subject: Re: [pbs] Hello Hi there Steve, welcome ot the list. Can you tell us more about you Crinum collection? Best wishes, Dash. Daryl 'Dash' Geoghegan, Mainly Amaryllids Garden, P O Box 173, Barnawartha, Victoria, 3688, Australia. +61 02 60267377, Mobile 0429 621 612 Visit my web site @ http://www.mainlyamaryllidsgarden.com ------------------------------------------------- ----- Original Message ----- From: "Burger, Steve" To: Sent: Friday, September 03, 2004 11:33 AM Subject: [pbs] Hello Hey there, My name is Steve and I'm a plantaholic. Actually I'm a crinumaholic. I just signed up for the list yesterday and I'm psyched to read about bulbs from folks as enthused as I am. BTW Other plants of interest...Palms, Gingers, aroids and anything that flowers when other people's landscapes look dreadful ( I live in Georgia, USA so by late July most people's gardens look tired). Glad to be joining Y'all, Steve _______________________________________________ pbs mailing list pbs@lists.ibiblio.org http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php _______________________________________________ pbs mailing list pbs@lists.ibiblio.org http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php From wpoulsen@pacbell.net Fri Sep 3 11:41:54 2004 Message-Id: From: Lee Poulsen Subject: Taxonomy on the Web - from Nature, pt. 1 Date: Fri, 3 Sep 2004 08:41:52 -0700 Some interesting articles for those interested. --Lee Poulsen Pasadena area, California, USDA Zone 9-10 ======================================================================== = http://www.nature.com/cgi-taf/DynaPage.taf?file=/NATURE/journal/v430/ n6998/full/430385a_fs.html Editorials Nature 430, 385 (22 July 2004); doi:10.1038/430385a Ignorance is not bliss We are witnessing a catastrophic loss of species that is the direct result of human activities. Yet we remain scandalously ill informed about the processes that give rise to biodiversity, and the consequences of its loss. If variety is the spice of life, we face an increasingly bland future. There are perhaps 10 million species of organism on Earth, of which at most 1.8 million have been described. In some taxonomic groups, up to 20% of known species face extinction, and countless more are disappearing unnoticed. This should concern us all because we don't know what the consequences will be. In general, the less diverse an ecosystem, the less productive and stable it is. But ecologists are currently unable to make specific predictions that could help inform decisions about development and conservation. If this is to change, we must reinvigorate taxonomy and describe the vast ranks of unnamed species. We need more passionate field workers, like Peter Ng of the National University of Singapore, whose efforts to catalogue neglected faunas are profiled on page 396. And we must ensure that the results of their endeavours don't languish on dusty shelves. We also need to answer practical questions about the consequences of biodiversity loss. How many species are needed for an ecosystem to function? Will the loss of certain key species have disproportionate knock-on effects? This research must be done on appropriate scales of time and space: consider biodiversity over too short a time, or too small an area, and you can get the wrong answers. Many interested scientists say gloomily that governments are not interested in this work. Given the stakes, this defeatism isn't good enough. Taxonomists and ecologists should look to the visionaries in their own midst, and to what their colleagues in genetics and climatology have achieved by understanding how to cast a research agenda in a light that can inspire — and if necessary, alarm — politicians. Few have a clearer vision than Charles Godfray, director of the UK Natural Environment Research Council's Centre for Population Biology at Silwood Park, west of London. He argues that taxonomy must emerge from museums to become a web-based information science (H. C. J. Godfray Nature 417, 17–19; 2002). Some initiatives of this ilk are under way, but the call has been short-sightedly rejected by much of the taxonomic community, notably the Linnean Society of London. Godfray was also instrumental in setting up one of the few long-term ecological projects investigating the consequences of declining biodiversity in a developing country where the problem is particularly acute. With backing from Britain's Royal Society, the Sabah Biodiversity Project in Malaysian Borneo is investigating ecosystem function and timber production in felled forests planted with varying numbers of species of dipterocarp — the main type of tree found in the rainforests of southeast Asia. More projects of this type are needed, but they won't be forthcoming unless ecologists can take a leaf from the book of the geneticists whose lobbying in the late 1980s led to the Human Genome Project. There are parallels between the two research agendas. Like taxonomy, genome sequencing is purely descriptive, while the Sabah study of ecosystem function is conceptually related to systems biology, the probing of the function of gene networks that has followed in genomics' wake. Taxonomists and ecologists need to dispel the notion that their work — which involves dirty boots, rather than gleaming lab machinery — is somehow less scientific. The cheerleaders of genomics promised gains in terms of human health and economic output. The economic consequences of ecosystem management are harder to quantify, but they are no less real: sustainable forestry, agriculture and tourism can all put developing economies on a sounder footing, to the benefit of us all. Climatologists faced similar problems in explaining the economics of their case. After global warming was identified as a threat, some leading climatologists became highly effective lobbyists, pounding the corridors of power to stress the importance of their work. They won increased research funding and the establishment of the influential Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change. So far, taxonomists and ecologists have failed to muster a comparable response to the galloping loss of our planet's biodiversity. It's time that they did. © 2004 Nature Publishing Group ======================================================================== =========================== http://www.nature.com/cgi-taf/DynaPage.taf?file=/nature/journal/v431/ n7004/full/431017b_fs.html Correspondence Nature 431, 17 (02 September 2004); doi:10.1038/431017b Linnean Society backs Godfray on use of web Sir – Your Editorial "Ignorance is not bliss" (Nature 430, 385; 2004) notes that Charles Godfray "argues that taxonomy must emerge from museums to become a web-based information science". It continues: "Some initiatives of this ilk are under way, but the call has been short-sightedly rejected by much of the taxonomic community, notably the Linnean Society of London." I was president of the Linnean Society from 2000 to 2003. During this period the society submitted written evidence to the Inquiry into Systematic Biology and Biodiversity held by the House of Lords Select Committee on Science and Technology. This evidence was published in What on Earth? The Threat to the Science Underpinning Conservation: Evidence (HL paper 118 (ii); 2002). On pages 124–125, the following statement occurs as part of the Linnean Society's evidence (all of which was formally approved by its council): "Professor Charles Godfray FRS ... argues powerfully and persuasively for a major sea-change in taxonomy whereby the systematics of all groups of organisms would become a single web-based resource .... His proposal would have the particular advantage that at last, taxonomic information would become easily available .... This will be essential if real and effective progress is to be made in the conservation of biodiversity in the UK." The Linnean Society therefore does not reject but supports the initiatives that have been proposed by Charles Godfray. David Smith 13 Abbotsford Park, Edinburgh EH10 5DZ, UK © 2004 Nature Publishing Group From wpoulsen@pacbell.net Fri Sep 3 11:42:15 2004 Message-Id: From: Lee Poulsen Subject: Taxonomy on the Web - from Nature, pt. 2 Date: Fri, 3 Sep 2004 08:42:09 -0700 http://www.nature.com/cgi-taf/DynaPage.taf?file=/NATURE/journal/v417/ n6884/full/417017a_fs.html Commentary Nature 417, 17 - 19 (02 May 2002); doi:10.1038/417017a Challenges for taxonomy H. CHARLES J. GODFRAY H. Charles J. Godfray is at the NERC Centre for Population Biology, Department of Biological Sciences, Imperial College at Silwood Park, Ascot, Berkshire SL5 7PY, UK. The discipline will have to reinvent itself if it is to survive and flourish. Taxonomy, the classification of living things, has its origins in ancient Greece and in its modern form dates back nearly 250 years, to when Linnaeus introduced the binomial classification still used today. Linnaeus, of course, hugely underestimated the number of plants and animals on Earth. As subsequent workers began to describe more and more species, often in ignorance of each others' work, the resulting confusion and chaos threatened to destroy the whole enterprise while still in its infancy. In today's jargon, we might call this the first bioinformatics crisis. Using the tools then available, nineteenth-century taxonomists solved this crisis in a brilliant way that has served the subject well since then. They invented a complex set of rules that determine how a species should be named and associated with a type specimen; how generic and higher taxonomic categories should be handled; and how conflicts over the application of names should be resolved. All these rules revolved around publications in books and scientific journals, and their descendants form the current codes of zoological and biological nomenclature. But today much of taxonomy is perceived to be facing a new crisis — a lack of prestige and resources that is crippling the continuing cataloguing of biodiversity. In the United Kingdom, a Parliamentary Select Committee is currently conducting an enquiry into the health of the subject for the second time in 10 years, and similar concerns are being expressed around the world. In this article I shall first explore why descriptive taxonomy is in such straits (in contrast, its sister subject, phylogenetic taxonomy, is flourishing). Then, after this essentially negative exercise, I will argue that taxonomy can prosper again, but only if it reinvents itself as a twenty-first-century information science. It needs to adopt some of the solutions that molecular biologists have developed to cope with the second bioinformatics crisis: the huge explosion of sequence, genomic, proteomic and other molecular data. The problem Why can't descriptive taxonomy attract large-scale funds in the same way as other big programmes like the Human Genome Project or the Sloan Digital Sky Survey? All three projects are enabling science: not in themselves generating new ideas or testing hypotheses, but allowing many new areas of research to be opened up. One reason is that taxonomists lack clearly achievable goals that are both realistic and relevant. Of course it would be great to describe every species of organism on Earth, but we are still monumentally uncertain as to how many species there are (probably somewhere between 4 million and 10 million); this goal is just not realistic at present. There are various projects aimed at listing, for example, all the valid described species of animal in Europe, or butterflies on Earth (see Box 1). These aims are eminently achievable and very worthwhile, but the results are like raw, unannotated DNA sequences: unexciting and of relatively little value in themselves to non-specialists. Taxonomists need to agree on deliverable projects that will receive wide support across the biological and environmental sciences, and attract public interest. A second problem is part of the legacy of more than 200 years of systematics. Many taxonomists spend most of their career trying to interpret the work of nineteenth-century systematicists: deconstructing their often inadequate published descriptions, or scouring the world's museums for type material that is often in very poor condition. A depressing fraction of published systematic research concerns these issues. In some taxonomic groups the past acts as a dead weight on the subject, the complex synonymy and scattered type material deterring anyone from attempting a modern revision. As Frank-Thorsten Krell pointed out in Correspondence (Nature 415, 957; 2002), "original descriptions have to be referred to for ever, independent of the paper's quality". The problems do not always lie in the past. Even today, many species are being described poorly in isolated publications, with no attempt to relate a new taxon to existing species and classifications. Many of these 'new' species will have been described before, so sorting out the mess will be the headache of the next generation of taxonomists. It is not surprising if funding bodies view much of what taxonomists do as poor value for money. One of the astonishing things about being a scientist at this particular time in history is the vast amount of information that is available, essentially free, via one's desktop computer. I can download the sequences of millions of genes, the positions of countless stars. Yet, with a few wonderful exceptions, the quantity of taxonomic information available on the web is pitiful, and what is present (typically simple lists) is of little use to non-taxonomists. But surely taxonomy is made for the web: it is an information-rich subject, often requiring copious illustrations. At present, the output of much taxonomy is expensive printed monographs, or papers in low-circulation journals available only in specialized libraries. These are not attractive 'deliverables' for major research funders. Two models of taxonomy The taxonomy of a group of organisms does not reside in a single publication or a single institution, but instead is an ill-defined integral of the accumulated literature on that group. The literature is bound together and cross-references itself using the venerable rules of taxonomy encapsulated in the codes. But this is not the only way to organize a taxonomy. The taxonomy of a particular group could reside in one place and be administered by a single organization. It could be self-contained and require reference to no other sources. My main argument is that to address the problems outlined above, and for taxonomy to flourish now and in the future, it has to move from the first to the second model: from having a distributed to a unitary organization. Such a massive task could only be accomplished group by group, as resources became available. I believe a number of things would then follow. First, the only logical way to organize a unitary taxonomy and to make it widely available is on the web. The web is currently used, if used at all, as an adjunct to the distributed, printed taxonomy, but I think it should replace it. Second, the core of taxonomy is a description of each species and a means of distinguishing among them; to this core has been added the exercise of resolving their evolutionary relationships. I believe that taxonomy needs to expand to include other aspects of the species' biology, to become an information science that curates our accumulated knowledge of that species in the way a gene annotation in a genome database organizes our knowledge of a particular protein. Third, I think it is essential that the unitary taxonomy of different groups evolves from the present taxonomy. We must preserve the achievements of 250 years of distributed taxonomy, dispensing with the bad legacy of the past but retaining the good. To illustrate how this could be done I shall sketch one possible way a unitary taxonomy might be achieved. I am not a professional taxonomist and am under no illusion that what follows will be the best or even a viable model, but I hope it will bring out the issues involved. A unitary taxonomy Introduce as a formal taxonomic procedure the 'first web revision'. This would be a revision of a major group of organisms to a standard decided on by the International Commission on Zoological Nomenclature, or the International Botanical Congress, or equivalent body (let's just call it the international committee). The revision would include a traditional description of each taxon and the location of type material. It might also include material not currently required in a formal description, for example keys and, for many groups, photographs or other illustrations. For some organisms a gene sequence might be required. It would also include a treatment of existing known synonyms to preserve contact with the older literature. This draft first web revision would be placed on the web for comments from the community, then after changes have been made in response, it would become the unitary taxonomy of the group. What would this mean? First, from this time onwards all future work on the group need refer only to the set of species in the first web revision and then later to those in the 'nth (that is, current) web revision'. The taxonomy of the group is thus at a stroke liberated from nineteenth-century descriptions and potentially undiscovered synonyms. If I think I have discovered a new species I need only to check that it is not already in the web revision. So what happens if I describe a new species and then someone discovers that Linnaeus or someone had already described it in an overlooked work? Well, that interesting nugget of historical information can be added to the species' web page, but the name doesn't change. What happens if I want to lump, split or add species, or revise their higher classification? Then I submit a revision that is mounted on the web for refereeing and comment. If, as a result, it is accepted, it becomes incorporated into the current (n+1th) web revision. At any one time there is just a single current web revision to which people refer, linked to all previous revisions (which are maintained on the web, so that in future I can easily see what was understood by species x in year y). A major difference between this way of doing taxonomy and the status quo is that a unitary taxonomy needs administration: both the physical implementation on servers and networks, and the intellectual administration of the current web revision. One virtue of the present system is that if no one is interested in a group's taxonomy it can quietly slumber in the library. But the collections and type material that underpin distributed taxonomies do require administration, which is currently undertaken by our great museums and herbaria. Nearly all these organizations are enthusiastically embracing modern web technologies. Hosting web revisions is something I see as a logical extension of their moves towards becoming, in part, modern information storehouses. It is absolutely clear, however, that they need more money in order to do this. They might also undertake the intellectual administration of the web revision — the refereeing and editing — although they would probably devolve this to committees drawn from a wider constituency (the equivalent of a journal's editorial board). However it worked, standards would need to be set and monitored by the international committee, who would also determine which institute houses which taxonomy, and would prevent duplication of effort. Advantages I believe that what I have described is evolutionary rather than revolutionary in that it preserves the hard-won successes of current taxonomy while dispensing with the historical baggage. It is also evolutionary in that groups would move to the new unitary taxonomy as resources became available. It would set a series of achievable targets that could be used to spur major funding initiatives, for example the first web revision of mosquitoes, reptiles or plants (and I hope Nature or Science might celebrate these milestones as they do completed genome sequences). I believe that major government and private research funders would consider construction and maintenance of a unitary taxonomy — universally accessible, and the foundation of all future work on the group — much more attractive to support than taxonomy as presently practised. It might also attract new sources of funding. It surely isn't impossible that a major company might sponsor the web revision of, say, the Lepidoptera (butterflies and moths); and if it wants to put its logo on the site, then why not? The web revision would become an information hub, both through its contents and through its links to other sites. Links to molecular databases will facilitate the increasing usefulness of molecular techniques in species identification. There are already exciting web-based phylogenetic projects (see Box 1) that aim ultimately to build a phylogeny of all living organisms; clearly, one would build in reciprocal links to these sites. Today, a reference to a species in a scientific article usually gives just the scientific name and possibly the authority, but seldom refers (or gives credit) to the taxonomic revision upon which the identification is based. As increasing numbers of journals go electronic, the mention of a species can more and more easily be linked to its position in the current web revision. Were the status of the species to change, the link would take you to the contemporary web revision and then forward to the current conception of the taxon. These links could also be used to produce a much-needed, fair 'citation count' for taxonomists. Finally, as an increasing amount of the scientific literature becomes available online through projects such as JSTOR (http://www.jstor.org), one can imagine links between a species description and important early papers on its taxonomy and biology, again maintaining links with the good legacy of distributed taxonomy. Many taxonomic works are very hard for non-specialists to use, sometimes because of real difficulties in telling many species apart, but more often because of the telegraphic jargon and lack of illustration imposed on taxonomists by the expense of publication in print. The web has far fewer constraints, and provides the space needed for taxonomists to be understood. Taxonomy often pays insufficient attention to its 'end users', the ecologists, conservationists, pest managers and amateur naturalists who need or want to identify animals and plants. I hope that, overlaid on the current web revision, there would be higher-level information, the equivalent of the regional field guides and floras used by field workers. For many, this 'entry level' would be all that is required, but where needed the user could burrow deeper, right through to the primary taxonomic sources. Today, few people would seriously think about taking a computer into the field as a substitute for a field guide, but that will undoubtedly change and taxonomists should be ready. Finally, the taxonomy should be available free (without access charges) to anyone who can log onto the Internet. This will raise the profile of taxonomy and increase the number of people who actually use the fruits of taxonomic research. Longer-term positive benefits will be for a new, young generation of naturalists, stalking their prey using digital cameras, downloading their captures into PCs, then identifying them over the web — exposing them to taxonomy as an active discipline, at the heart of modern biology. Disadvantages One disadvantage of a unitary taxonomy is the requirement for more administration, with its attendant costs. My assertion is that the advantages of a unitary taxonomy will prime sufficient new funds to counterbalance this, but if I'm wrong the project fails. There are also considerable technological challenges in developing the web software to support the taxonomies. A possible criticism is that the proposal is top-down, at variance with the individualistic tradition of taxonomy. Would one clique be able to impose its view of how a group is classified? The international committee would be empowered to set standards, but rejected contributions to a group's taxonomy should also be stored on the web. Even if they are not incorporated in the current web revision they can at least influence future scholarship and research. An important issue is the degree to which a treatment should be 'complete' before it is a candidate for a first web revision. Could a series of intractable species complexes requiring detailed research delay completion of a revision? The ideal solution would be to commission new taxonomic research to sort out these problems, but if this is not possible I would favour a category of 'provisional taxon', where the need for further study is clearly highlighted. After all, the heterochromatin-rich gaps in the human genome sequence did not delay the announcement of its 'completion'. Is a web-based taxonomy as permanent as a paper-based one, and are people without computers disenfranchised, especially those in less wealthy countries? I believe the first is a non-issue; there is not (as far as I know) a paper back-up to the human genome database, and the international committee would set rigid standards for archiving and backup. Access is a much more important matter, but very many more people are at present disenfranchised by their inability to get to a specialist library, or to order a reprint, or even by being unaware that certain literature exists. The web-based taxonomy must be completely downloadable so that even continuous access to the Internet is not essential, and, if all else fails, a paper copy could be printed. It might spread the geographical distribution of taxonomic activity if some sites were hosted by developing countries with strengths in computing, such as India. Conclusions I find that the commonest reaction of taxonomists to these ideas is the worry that it is an attempted technological fix that distracts attention from what they (and I) perceive to be the overwhelmingly critical issue — the lack of people and resources devoted to descriptive taxonomy. The counter-argument is that the technological fix is not an end in itself; it is the means of making grassroots taxonomy more accessible and useful, and thus attracting people and funds into the field. But is such a root-and-branch change in the culture of taxonomy really needed? Although there is near-universal agreement about the current depressed state of descriptive taxonomy, wouldn't more funding alone solve the problem? I think not: indeed, descriptive taxonomy might disappear completely for 'difficult' groups such as many insects and nematodes. Just as Moore's law says that microprocessor power doubles every 18 months, there must be a parallel law that says DNA sequencing power increases geometrically. In 10 or 20 years' time it will be simpler to take an individual organism and get enough sequence data to assign it to a 'sequence cluster' (equivalent to species) than to key it down using traditional methods, let alone describe it as new. Just as bacterial taxonomy is now nearly all sequence-based, a new way of classifying insects, nematodes and perhaps even many plants and fish might evolve that is totally divorced from current taxonomy — a point also made forcibly by Robert May, president of Britain's Royal Society. Would the death of large swathes of present-day systematics matter? Yes it would, because we would be throwing away so much of what we have learned in the past 250 years about the planet's biota, a lot of which we would then have to relearn. But unless taxonomy is unitary, web-based and able to accommodate these radical new ways of doing biology, I fear it will be sidelined. The rigidity built into the current rules and codes of taxonomy — which include prohibition of purely electronic description — is part of their success, and changes should not be made lightly. But I suspect these rules are now a brake on progress, imprisoning the subject in outdated methodologies, and rendering it difficult or impossible to attract the major funds needed to reverse its slow decline. Surely it is time to experiment — time for the international taxonomic community to come together and countenance a unitary web revision of one or a few major groups of organisms (and to work out exactly how a unitary taxonomy should operate). This venture must be sanctioned and supported by the existing international committees, or no serious taxonomist will waste his or her time on it; no institution will administer it; and no agency will fund it. If successful, it will change how taxonomy is done for ever; if it fails it would not be difficult to revert to the status quo ante. There is everything to gain and little to lose. Acknowledgements. I am grateful to the many taxonomists and other biologists who have debated these issues with me. ---------------------------------------------------------------- Box 1: http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v417/n6884/box/417017a_bx1.html Taxonomy on the web The current codes of zoological and botanical nomenclature do not allow original descriptions to be made purely on the web, but nevertheless there is a substantial amount of taxonomy on the Internet. The Natural History Portal of the Natural History Museum in London (http://www.nhm.ac.uk/portal/index.html) provides an excellent entry into these resources, which include such sites as the International Plant Name Index (http://www.ipni.org) that covers all higher plants; the ant database (http://www.antbase.org) featured recently in Nature's News section (416, 115; 2002); and the Tree of Life project (http://tolweb.org/tree), a database of phylogenies. The most common data available are catalogues of species names and lists of museum specimens, although some identification keys and other information-rich sites are becoming available. An ambitious project led by Species 2000 (http://www.sp2000.org) and the Integrated Taxonomic Information System (http://www.itis.usda.gov) aims to catalogue the world's biota, and these sites themselves also link to the Global Biodiversity Information Facility (http://www.gbif.org), intended to be a general clearing house for biodiversity information. Finally, the All Species Foundation (http://www.all-species.org) has set itself the goal of making an inventory of all species on Earth in the next 25 years. ---------------------------------------------------------------- © 2002 Nature Publishing Group From jwaddick@kc.rr.com Fri Sep 3 12:02:20 2004 Message-Id: From: James Waddick Subject: Mediterranean Gardening and Conservation- FYI Date: Fri, 3 Sep 2004 10:51:06 -0500 Mediterranean Gardening and Conservation A new International course at the Jerusalem Botanical Gardens Itzhak Ayalon - Executive Director Dr Ori Fragman-Sapir - Head Scientist Dr Rakefet Hadar-Gabay - Principal, School of Horticulture The course is designed for curators, horticulturists, gardeners, and other botanical garden staff from the Mediterranean climates and participants from Botanic Gardens that have Mediterranean plant collections. Course language - English. Course length - 1 months, starting February 27th 2005 ending March 31st 2005. Location - The Jerusalem Botanical Gardens, Jerusalem, Israel Please contact Dr Ori Fragman-Sapir for more details fragman@botanic.co.il Tel +972-52-4472401 Fax +972-2-6793941 please visit our website www.botanic.co.il -- Dr. James W. Waddick 8871 NW Brostrom Rd. Kansas City Missouri 64152-2711 USA Ph. 816-746-1949 E-fax 419-781-8594 Zone 5 Record low -23F Summer 100F + From janemcgary@earthlink.net Fri Sep 3 12:09:11 2004 Message-Id: <5.2.1.1.0.20040903090024.014bd1a8@mail.earthlink.net> From: Jane McGary Subject: Rats vs rats Date: Fri, 03 Sep 2004 09:09:04 -0700 Lee and Susan both found, as I have, that the best enemy of rats is the dog. I don't have city rats (Rattus norvegicus) here in the country, but there are wood rats, which are a bit smaller with furry tails. If I knew what part of the wiki to post it on, I'd scan a slide I took a few years ago. I came outdoors one morning to find that my Malamute bitch, then 3 years old, had dug and pulled up 30 feet of flexible perforated drainpipe that had been buried across a terrace, about 4 inches below the surface. She had torn this tough plastic pipe into 3 or 4 pieces in order to catch and kill a wood rat that had taken refuge in the pipe. Plants were strewn hither and yon. I took a deep breath and walked back inside to get the camera. There are few tree squirrels here, and only the native species, the eastern gray squirrel not having made it this far from the city yet. They're so rare that when Koshka caught one, she sneaked away with it, apparently fearing that it was some sort of cat and I would punish her for killing it. I had to explain to her that squirrels were fair game. Chipmunks are a problem among the bulbs as well, but they don't go far from the trees, fearing the dogs and numerous feral cats. The big problem in bulbs is field mice and voles. The other day I talked to a state pest control officer about them and was told that the only effective control was poisoned grain, and that this is hard to obtain. I knew about it but never used it because Koshka was an omnivorous forager, but now she has died at a ripe old age, and my present dogs don't forage as she did. I'm going to contact a pest control company to see what I can get against these rodents, so I can grow crocuses in the borders again, and not have to cover my most precious pots of crocuses with wire mesh caps in the bulb frames. Jane McGary Northwestern Oregon, USA From mmattus@charter.net Fri Sep 3 13:17:37 2004 Message-Id: From: Matthew Mattus Subject: Rats vs rats Date: Fri, 03 Sep 2004 13:17:52 -0400 My first posting after joining, and I've been reading this group for a year now. But THANK GOD I CAN ADMIT THAT WE HAVE A RAT PROBLEM TOO! I live in Worcester Massachusetts, and my collection of Camellia's from Nuccio's, about 20 potted trees, too have been abused by rats and squirrels. My elderly father, who keeps an apt above the car garages, feeds the birds obsessively. So we find seed spread around the greenhouses, on benches, on cut wood that we stack for the firesplaces, everywhere. One day, we noticed that we first had many squirrels, but now closer inspection also told us that many of these we're big brown rats too, eating with the squirrels. They are buddies. I assume that they first came to our place since we had poultry in the barns. But now that the chickens are all gone, the rats have come closer. I too noticed that since we breed Irish terriers, well known ratters, that we never saw any until now, since the dogs are now off at shows in California for the fall. No wonder out little Margaret zips out back whenever she can...to hunt! The rats have posed a big problem now for us, since, although they stay out of the greenhouses since they are made of steel and stone, with high foundations to keep snakes out (my own silly phobia! don't ask!) The rats do dig through the potted plants out side for the summer, and now come quite close to the porches of the house. We have stopped feeding the birds except at select station, that have elaborate squirrel protection designed, but getting rid of them is still aproblem, since we don't want to use poison. The rats have eaten 5 of our biggest Amorphophallus konjac, including two A. titanum. Mice have been a problem in the cold frames, I once counted 14 under one board. I lost all of our hardy common bulbs last year (tulips, etc, ornamentals for forcing and gifts) but the mice stay out of the big greenhouse since it is pretty sealed off. Good thing, since the Nerine sarniensis collection and cyrtanthus, clivia and South African bulbs are kept safe. This year we are constructing a new Alpine house, and since I designed it to have louver windows at bench height all around, I am concerned for the frit's and primulas inside. We'll see. Since we are loading it up for the autumn today. Anyway, now I am not embarrased to admit this little problem with nature. Rat's don't necessarily mean that you have trash, it just means that they are finding food and shelter. Greetings from Central Massachusetts! Matt Mattus Worcester, Massachusetts USA USDA Zone 5 From susanann@sbcglobal.net Fri Sep 3 13:22:21 2004 Message-Id: From: Susan Hayek Subject: Rats vs rats vs baiting Date: Fri, 3 Sep 2004 10:22:42 -0700 >The big problem in bulbs is field mice and voles. The other day I >talked to a state pest control officer about them and was told that >the only effective control was poisoned grain, and that this is hard >to obtain. I knew about it but never used it because Koshka was an >omnivorous forager, but now she has died at a ripe old age, and my >present dogs don't forage as she did. I'm going to contact a pest >control company to see what I can get against these rodents, so I >can grow crocuses in the borders again, and not have to cover my >most precious pots of crocuses with wire mesh caps in the bulb >frames. **The problem with poison grains is that the critter will pack its cheeks with it and travel on. Gophers can go 500' from the source of the grain. I had an acquaintance lose his Borzoi a couple of months ago from eating a gopher whose cheeks were packed with the poison. (The autopsy showed the grains in the dog's stomach, and they checked with neighbors surrounding their 2 acre parcel. Unfortunately their neighbor had been baiting. Once the dog starts seizing their not much anyone can do.) The normal poisoned gopher probably wouldn't kill a large dog except if he was storing the grain in the cheek pouches. Gracie was picking off a couple of gophers a day in the spring and we were just hoping we weren't close to anyone using poison for control. Having animals keeps us honest about using pesticides and poison. I had 3 Basenjis climb a 6 foot ladder to get at an unopened box of Corry's Snail bait. They ate enough to kill them, so off to the vet they went. The vet said that most snail baits taste like licorice so they're very appealing to dogs. The poison rodent grains are probably equally tasty. -- susan, who is..... owned by Jasper & Schubert the Standard Poodles, Gracie the Rhodesian, Pup-Quiz the Basenji and their Basenji brother, Jones.... on the North Coast of CA, USA susanann@sbcglobal.net, copyright 2004 From putman@pobox.upenn.edu Fri Sep 3 14:02:05 2004 Message-Id: <4138B176.6020107@pobox.upenn.edu> From: Stephen Putman Subject: Rats vs rats Date: Fri, 03 Sep 2004 14:01:26 -0400 Just as a side matter, what do you think snakes eat besides gardeners? shp Matthew Mattus wrote: > My first posting after joining, and I've been reading this group for a year > now. But THANK GOD I CAN ADMIT THAT WE HAVE A RAT PROBLEM TOO! > > I live in Worcester Massachusetts, and my collection of Camellia's from > Nuccio's, about 20 potted trees, too have been abused by rats and squirrels. > My elderly father, who keeps an apt above the car garages, feeds the birds > obsessively. So we find seed spread around the greenhouses, on benches, on > cut wood that we stack for the firesplaces, everywhere. > > One day, we noticed that we first had many squirrels, but now closer > inspection also told us that many of these we're big brown rats too, eating > with the squirrels. They are buddies. > > I assume that they first came to our place since we had poultry in the > barns. But now that the chickens are all gone, the rats have come closer. I > too noticed that since we breed Irish terriers, well known ratters, that we > never saw any until now, since the dogs are now off at shows in California > for the fall. No wonder out little Margaret zips out back whenever she > can...to hunt! > > The rats have posed a big problem now for us, since, although they stay out > of the greenhouses since they are made of steel and stone, with high > foundations to keep snakes out (my own silly phobia! don't ask!) The rats do > dig through the potted plants out side for the summer, and now come quite > close to the porches of the house. We have stopped feeding the birds except > at select station, that have elaborate squirrel protection designed, but > getting rid of them is still aproblem, since we don't want to use poison. > > The rats have eaten 5 of our biggest Amorphophallus konjac, including two > A. titanum. > > Mice have been a problem in the cold frames, I once counted 14 under one > board. I lost all of our hardy common bulbs last year (tulips, etc, > ornamentals for forcing and gifts) but the mice stay out of the big > greenhouse since it is pretty sealed off. Good thing, since the Nerine > sarniensis collection and cyrtanthus, clivia and South African bulbs are > kept safe. > > This year we are constructing a new Alpine house, and since I designed it to > have louver windows at bench height all around, I am concerned for the > frit's and primulas inside. We'll see. Since we are loading it up for the > autumn today. > > Anyway, now I am not embarrased to admit this little problem with nature. > Rat's don't necessarily mean that you have trash, it just means that they > are finding food and shelter. > > Greetings from Central Massachusetts! > > Matt Mattus > Worcester, Massachusetts USA > USDA Zone 5 > > _______________________________________________ > pbs mailing list > pbs@lists.ibiblio.org > http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php From putman@pobox.upenn.edu Fri Sep 3 14:05:37 2004 Message-Id: <4138B248.10106@pobox.upenn.edu> From: Stephen Putman Subject: Rats vs rats vs baiting Date: Fri, 03 Sep 2004 14:04:56 -0400 Not to mention the fact that avian predators eat "sick" or poisoned rodents and are killed by the rodenticide. It takes much less to kill an hawk or owl than it does to kill one of our pet dogs. We stopped using rodenticides many years ago for just that reason. shp Susan Hayek wrote: >> The big problem in bulbs is field mice and voles. The other day I >> talked to a state pest control officer about them and was told that >> the only effective control was poisoned grain, and that this is hard >> to obtain. I knew about it but never used it because Koshka was an >> omnivorous forager, but now she has died at a ripe old age, and my >> present dogs don't forage as she did. I'm going to contact a pest >> control company to see what I can get against these rodents, so I can >> grow crocuses in the borders again, and not have to cover my most >> precious pots of crocuses with wire mesh caps in the bulb frames. > > > **The problem with poison grains is that the critter will pack its > cheeks with it and travel on. > Gophers can go 500' from the source of the grain. > > I had an acquaintance lose his Borzoi a couple of months ago from eating > a gopher whose cheeks were packed with the poison. (The autopsy showed > the grains in the dog's stomach, and they checked with neighbors > surrounding their 2 acre parcel. Unfortunately their neighbor had been > baiting. Once the dog starts seizing their not much anyone can do.) > The normal poisoned gopher probably wouldn't kill a large dog except if > he was storing the grain in the cheek pouches. > Gracie was picking off a couple of gophers a day in the spring and we > were just hoping we weren't close to anyone using poison for control. > > Having animals keeps us honest about using pesticides and poison. > I had 3 Basenjis climb a 6 foot ladder to get at an unopened box of > Corry's Snail bait. > They ate enough to kill them, so off to the vet they went. > The vet said that most snail baits taste like licorice so they're very > appealing to dogs. > The poison rodent grains are probably equally tasty. > > From hyline@tampabay.rr.com Fri Sep 3 14:24:16 2004 Message-Id: <002801c491e3$2fa0fd60$6500a8c0@tampabay.rr.com> From: "Kevin D. Preuss" Subject: Taxonomy on the Web - from Nature, pt. 1 Date: Fri, 3 Sep 2004 14:24:00 -0400 It can be frustrating... There is little support for taxonomy, which is the basis for communication in ecology. Gov't institutions do not want to pay the $ to employ these kind of abstract scienists. Academia is where most go. Then there are countries such as Brazil that make it difficult to visit and study in the field. Not that this country is much different... For all the talk there is little action and even less $. It is hard to feed your family on ideals...this message resonates through the jungle communities whre diversity is richest on to the consumers that drive this trend. Kevin D. Preuss www.Amaryllis-Plus.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "Lee Poulsen" To: "PBS Society" Sent: Friday, September 03, 2004 11:41 AM Subject: [pbs] Taxonomy on the Web - from Nature, pt. 1 Some interesting articles for those interested. --Lee Poulsen Pasadena area, California, USDA Zone 9-10 ======================================================================== = http://www.nature.com/cgi-taf/DynaPage.taf?file=/NATURE/journal/v430/ n6998/full/430385a_fs.html Editorials Nature 430, 385 (22 July 2004); doi:10.1038/430385a Ignorance is not bliss We are witnessing a catastrophic loss of species that is the direct result of human activities. Yet we remain scandalously ill informed about the processes that give rise to biodiversity, and the consequences of its loss. If variety is the spice of life, we face an increasingly bland future. There are perhaps 10 million species of organism on Earth, of which at most 1.8 million have been described. In some taxonomic groups, up to 20% of known species face extinction, and countless more are disappearing unnoticed. This should concern us all because we don't know what the consequences will be. In general, the less diverse an ecosystem, the less productive and stable it is. But ecologists are currently unable to make specific predictions that could help inform decisions about development and conservation. If this is to change, we must reinvigorate taxonomy and describe the vast ranks of unnamed species. We need more passionate field workers, like Peter Ng of the National University of Singapore, whose efforts to catalogue neglected faunas are profiled on page 396. And we must ensure that the results of their endeavours don't languish on dusty shelves. We also need to answer practical questions about the consequences of biodiversity loss. How many species are needed for an ecosystem to function? Will the loss of certain key species have disproportionate knock-on effects? This research must be done on appropriate scales of time and space: consider biodiversity over too short a time, or too small an area, and you can get the wrong answers. Many interested scientists say gloomily that governments are not interested in this work. Given the stakes, this defeatism isn't good enough. Taxonomists and ecologists should look to the visionaries in their own midst, and to what their colleagues in genetics and climatology have achieved by understanding how to cast a research agenda in a light that can inspire — and if necessary, alarm — politicians. Few have a clearer vision than Charles Godfray, director of the UK Natural Environment Research Council's Centre for Population Biology at Silwood Park, west of London. He argues that taxonomy must emerge from museums to become a web-based information science (H. C. J. Godfray Nature 417, 17–19; 2002). Some initiatives of this ilk are under way, but the call has been short-sightedly rejected by much of the taxonomic community, notably the Linnean Society of London. Godfray was also instrumental in setting up one of the few long-term ecological projects investigating the consequences of declining biodiversity in a developing country where the problem is particularly acute. With backing from Britain's Royal Society, the Sabah Biodiversity Project in Malaysian Borneo is investigating ecosystem function and timber production in felled forests planted with varying numbers of species of dipterocarp — the main type of tree found in the rainforests of southeast Asia. More projects of this type are needed, but they won't be forthcoming unless ecologists can take a leaf from the book of the geneticists whose lobbying in the late 1980s led to the Human Genome Project. There are parallels between the two research agendas. Like taxonomy, genome sequencing is purely descriptive, while the Sabah study of ecosystem function is conceptually related to systems biology, the probing of the function of gene networks that has followed in genomics' wake. Taxonomists and ecologists need to dispel the notion that their work — which involves dirty boots, rather than gleaming lab machinery — is somehow less scientific. The cheerleaders of genomics promised gains in terms of human health and economic output. The economic consequences of ecosystem management are harder to quantify, but they are no less real: sustainable forestry, agriculture and tourism can all put developing economies on a sounder footing, to the benefit of us all. Climatologists faced similar problems in explaining the economics of their case. After global warming was identified as a threat, some leading climatologists became highly effective lobbyists, pounding the corridors of power to stress the importance of their work. They won increased research funding and the establishment of the influential Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change. So far, taxonomists and ecologists have failed to muster a comparable response to the galloping loss of our planet's biodiversity. It's time that they did. © 2004 Nature Publishing Group ======================================================================== =========================== http://www.nature.com/cgi-taf/DynaPage.taf?file=/nature/journal/v431/ n7004/full/431017b_fs.html Correspondence Nature 431, 17 (02 September 2004); doi:10.1038/431017b ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- > Linnean Society backs Godfray on use of web > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- Sir – Your Editorial "Ignorance is not bliss" (Nature 430, 385; 2004) notes that Charles Godfray "argues that taxonomy must emerge from museums to become a web-based information science". It continues: "Some initiatives of this ilk are under way, but the call has been short-sightedly rejected by much of the taxonomic community, notably the Linnean Society of London." I was president of the Linnean Society from 2000 to 2003. During this period the society submitted written evidence to the Inquiry into Systematic Biology and Biodiversity held by the House of Lords Select Committee on Science and Technology. This evidence was published in What on Earth? The Threat to the Science Underpinning Conservation: Evidence (HL paper 118 (ii); 2002). On pages 124–125, the following statement occurs as part of the Linnean Society's evidence (all of which was formally approved by its council): "Professor Charles Godfray FRS ... argues powerfully and persuasively for a major sea-change in taxonomy whereby the systematics of all groups of organisms would become a single web-based resource .... His proposal would have the particular advantage that at last, taxonomic information would become easily available .... This will be essential if real and effective progress is to be made in the conservation of biodiversity in the UK." The Linnean Society therefore does not reject but supports the initiatives that have been proposed by Charles Godfray. David Smith 13 Abbotsford Park, Edinburgh EH10 5DZ, UK © 2004 Nature Publishing Group ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- > _______________________________________________ > pbs mailing list > pbs@lists.ibiblio.org > http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php > From Theladygardens@aol.com Fri Sep 3 15:06:41 2004 Message-Id: <13c.2f786a.2e6a1abd@aol.com> From: Theladygardens@aol.com Subject: Fwd: [pbs] baiting Date: Fri, 3 Sep 2004 15:06:37 EDT From susanann@sbcglobal.net Fri Sep 3 15:20:09 2004 Message-Id: From: Susan Hayek Subject: Rats vs rats vs little human ratlets Date: Fri, 3 Sep 2004 12:20:31 -0700 >Just as a side matter, what do you think snakes eat besides gardeners? > >shp **A gardening friend tells this story. Her young neighbor came by one day to play with the little garter snakes in Margo's garden. The girl was holding and playing with the snake, roughly, so my friend asked her to put down the snake. The girl refused, and squeezed harder, and the snake started upchucking. My friend said she had never seen the amount of snails and slugs that the poor snake upchucked. The snake had consumed a HUGE amount of the slimy beasts. Good in the garden, snakes. Bad in the garden, little girls who handle snakes roughly. -- susan, who is..... owned by Jasper & Schubert the Standard Poodles, Gracie the Rhodesian, Pup-Quiz the Basenji and their Basenji brother, Jones.... on the North Coast of CA, USA susanann@sbcglobal.net, copyright 2004 From susanann@sbcglobal.net Fri Sep 3 15:23:27 2004 Message-Id: From: Susan Hayek Subject: Rats vs rats vs baiting Date: Fri, 3 Sep 2004 12:23:54 -0700 >Not to mention the fact that avian predators eat "sick" or poisoned >rodents and are killed by the rodenticide. It takes much less to >kill an hawk or owl than it does to kill one of our pet dogs. We >stopped using rodenticides many years ago for just that reason. > >shp **Exactly. There are far reaching effects from poisons. I have another acquaintance who sprays her Fuchsias for mites. Unfortunately the miticide also kills the humming birds who carry the mites from plant to plant. Most Fuchsia species aren't affected by the mites, but the hybrids that are, I just chomp them back. I plant a lot of species. -- susan, who is..... owned by Jasper & Schubert the Standard Poodles, Gracie the Rhodesian, Pup-Quiz the Basenji and their Basenji brother, Jones.... on the North Coast of CA, USA susanann@sbcglobal.net, copyright 2004 From wpoulsen@pacbell.net Fri Sep 3 16:00:22 2004 Message-Id: From: Lee Poulsen Subject: Rats vs rats Date: Fri, 3 Sep 2004 13:00:20 -0700 I remembered what the species was: Rhodohypoxis baurii. I have a number of different cultivars, and they (or it) munched their way through several pots worth before I discovered the damage. It was while they were still dormant (late winter/early spring). --Lee Poulsen Pasadena area, California, USDA Zone 9-10 On Sep 2, 2004, at 10:27 PM, Lee Poulsen wrote: > At this house, the first year some rats nearly decimated one > particular genus of bulb (and I can't remember what it was, but I > nearly lost all of them until I found a partially eaten one left on > the surface of the pot so I hid the remaining pots). From Theladygardens@aol.com Fri Sep 3 16:24:11 2004 Message-Id: <1cc.2a06577b.2e6a2ce8@aol.com> From: Theladygardens@aol.com Subject: Baiting Date: Fri, 3 Sep 2004 16:24:08 EDT Being concerned about secondary pooisoning, I am very careful about what I use. I was using Sluggo. It says right on the bag that it is safe. Read the fine print, it is only safe if scattered very very sparsley. Most people who have a problem pour it on heavy and do not bother to read the fine print. I have chickens, 3 very large chickens pecked through a sealed bag and ate sluggo. Of course they shouldn't have been eating it, The Sluggo people tell me "well,they shouldn't have been eating it. They couldn't have eaten more than 1/4 to 1/2 cup each when I noticed them. They all bloated up horribly, one died the next day, the 2nd, the next week and the 3rd stayed bloated up and suffering for 4 weeks before dying. I kept thinking I could save her and was trying. So I wonder just how many Sluggo pellets a lizard or small bird would have to eat before it killed them. I no longer put it out where birds can get to it. I no longer consider it safe around small pets or small humans either. Carolyn in Los Gatos, CA From susanann@sbcglobal.net Fri Sep 3 16:30:45 2004 Message-Id: From: Susan Hayek Subject: Baiting Date: Fri, 3 Sep 2004 13:31:13 -0700 >Being concerned about secondary pooisoning, I am very careful about what I >use. I was using Sluggo. It says right on the bag that it is safe. Read the >fine print, it is only safe if scattered very very sparsley. Most people who >have a problem pour it on heavy and do not bother to read the fine print. >I have chickens, 3 very large chickens pecked through a sealed bag and ate >sluggo. Of course they shouldn't have been eating it, The Sluggo >people tell me >"well,they shouldn't have been eating it. They couldn't have eaten more than >1/4 to 1/2 cup each when I noticed them. They all bloated up horribly, one >died the next day, the 2nd, the next week and the 3rd stayed bloated up and >suffering for 4 weeks before dying. I kept thinking I could save her and was >trying. So I wonder just how many Sluggo pellets a lizard or small bird would >have to eat before it killed them. I no longer put it out where birds can get >to it. I no longer consider it safe around small pets or small >humans either. > >Carolyn in Los Gatos, CA **Thanks, Carolyn, good to know. I scatter it sparsely and the birds probably don't get to it, because the dogs love to chase the birds. As I said. We haven't achieved a balance yet. Leon is using the copper tape where he can. I don't know if it works, but it's pretty. -- susan, who is..... owned by Jasper & Schubert the Standard Poodles, Gracie the Rhodesian, Pup-Quiz the Basenji and their Basenji brother, Jones.... on the North Coast of CA, USA susanann@sbcglobal.net, copyright 2004 From arnold@nj.rr.com Fri Sep 3 17:00:47 2004 Message-Id: <4138DB78.1080306@nj.rr.com> From: Arnold Trachtenberg Subject: Rats vs rats Date: Fri, 03 Sep 2004 17:00:40 -0400 Jane et al: I have heard that there are some rodenticides that don't allow secondary poisoning such as was described in the death of the borzoi. I think it may be zinc phosphide that reacts with the acid in the gastrointestinal tract and releases a gas that poisons the rodent. The gas does its thing and then moves on and secondary poisoning is not a problem. Of course I would be hesitant about this until I had researched it a bit more. I will do a bit of looking and report back Arnold New Jersey From arnold@nj.rr.com Fri Sep 3 17:10:51 2004 Message-Id: <4138DDD9.9000900@nj.rr.com> From: Arnold Trachtenberg Subject: Rats vs rats Date: Fri, 03 Sep 2004 17:10:49 -0400 * Effects on other organisms: Zinc phosphide is also toxic to non-target mammals when ingested directly [8]. Nearly 60 studies have been conducted on the toxicity of this rodenticide to wild animals. Secondary toxicity to mammalian predators (animals eating other animals that had been exposed to the compound) from zinc phosphide is rather low, primarily because the compound does not significantly accumulate in the muscles of target species [8]. Some of the toxic effects to predators have been due to the ingestion of zinc phosphide that was in the digestive tract of the target organism. Studies on secondary organisms have focused on coyotes, fox, mink, weasels, and birds of prey. Under field conditions, most of the toxic effects to non-target wildlife are due to direct exposures resulting from misuse or misapplication of this rodenticide [8]. From http://extoxnet.orst.edu/pips/zincphos.htm Arnold From arnold@nj.rr.com Fri Sep 3 17:13:25 2004 Message-Id: <4138DE70.9000102@nj.rr.com> From: Arnold Trachtenberg Subject: Rats vs rats Date: Fri, 03 Sep 2004 17:13:20 -0400 Here's another reference with a bit of a different take. Arnold http://www.michigan.gov/dnr/0,1607,7-153-10370_12150_12220-26326--,00.html From bulbmeister@bulbmeister.com Fri Sep 3 17:26:27 2004 Message-Id: <4138E18E.9080402@bulbmeister.com> From: Kelly Irvin Subject: phil adams Date: Fri, 03 Sep 2004 16:26:38 -0500 Can anybody help me with reaching Phil Adams? I need a telephone number if possible. Thanks. -- Mr. Kelly M. Irvin The Bulbmeister 4407 Town Vu Road Bentonville, AR 72712 479-366-4968 USDA Cold Hardiness Zone 6b E-mail: mailto:bulbmeister@bulbmeister.com Website: http://www.bulbmeister.com/ Forum: http://www.bulbmeister.com/forum/ From arnold@nj.rr.com Fri Sep 3 17:46:08 2004 Message-Id: <4138E61E.1020908@nj.rr.com> From: Arnold Trachtenberg Subject: Rats vs rats Date: Fri, 03 Sep 2004 17:46:06 -0400 Rodger: I like to tell friends that squirrels eat crocus like people would eat a bowl of macadamia nuts. Arnold From susanann@sbcglobal.net Fri Sep 3 18:58:12 2004 Message-Id: From: Susan Hayek Subject: Crocus in cans Date: Fri, 3 Sep 2004 15:58:26 -0700 From www.oldhousegardens.com >>Do RODENTS Eat Your Crocus? Here’s a Solution! Joe Eck, writing in Horticulture (March/April 2004), says “Crocuses can be heartbreakers, since far less benign creatures than bees are partial to their corms. . . . For this reason, we learned years ago to plant all our crocuses in black plastic nursery cans, each covered with a lid of hardware cloth, its corners bent down to clasp the edges. The cans are buried so that the rims and lids lie about two inches below the surface of the soil, and the crocus corms are planted deep, up to eight inches, which prevents them from splitting into tiny cormlets too small to flower. A two-gallon can will hold a dozen species crocus corms comfortably and still leave room for multiplying. Our oldest crocuses planted in this way have been in their cans for 15 years undisturbed, and still flower abundantly each spring. Also, the perennials that come later grow happily over and into the cans, seeming to cause the crocuses no discomfort at all.” Is this accurate? -- susan, who is..... owned by Jasper & Schubert the Standard Poodles, Gracie the Rhodesian, Pup-Quiz the Basenji and their Basenji brother, Jones.... on the North Coast of CA, USA susanann@sbcglobal.net, copyright 2004 From vikingdoc@earthlink.net Fri Sep 3 21:27:16 2004 Message-Id: <410-2200496412753960@earthlink.net> From: "Kathy Stokmanis" Subject: Crocus in cans Date: Fri, 3 Sep 2004 18:27:53 -0700 Hi, all, I had no experience with critters eating bulbs until I moved here. Voles are abundant and the first year I lost all of my lilies. Now I plant everything but Amaryllidaceae and Narcissus (and now Colchicum, thank you, Odyssey Bulbs) in mesh--half inch hardware cloth homemade cages, dollar store plastic laundry bins with holes drilled in the bottom and, my most recent find, plastic-dipped metal mesh trash cans found at the dollar store. I hope the plastic covering the metal will increase the longevity of the cage. I don't know that the plastic plant pots would work for me. It rains 50 to 70 inches between November and April. I bury the cages level with the ground or slightly above, since I've found vole holes barely under the surface of the soil. So far the squirrels have not eaten anything and I have not had to use chicken wire over the surface of the cages. Of the bulbs that I have only crocus could successfully emerge through hardware cloth. I have not lost any bulbs since I started caging them but I agree with Jane McGary, I would love to be able to plant a drift of crocus, fritillaries or lilies and have them still be present a year later. I have often wondered how the native fritillaries survive. Some seem to have grown in narrow crevices between rocks but others...are the Dichelostemmas and other California native bulbs pest resistent? . Kathy Stokmanis Sierra foothills, zone 8/9, no rain since April though we dodged the long term 100+ temperatures that we normally experience. From arnold@nj.rr.com Fri Sep 3 21:30:14 2004 Message-Id: <41391AA3.2070805@nj.rr.com> From: Arnold Trachtenberg Subject: Bulbs in lawns Date: Fri, 03 Sep 2004 21:30:11 -0400 Another kind of bulb in lawn is in a spread of ivy with three different daffodils planted en masse. The ivy grows beneath a number of 80 year old European beech trees and the daffodils foliage has the chance to ripen before the trees truly leaf out. They have been there for three years and the daffodils seem to be thriving. The daffodils are Pueblo, February Gold and Thalia. It provides and spread of daffodils from early to late season and also the colors of the display change as the different daffodils come into bloom. The toughest part was planting the bulbs in the tangle of ivy stems and tree roots from the beeches. Arnold New Jersey From jimmckenney@starpower.net Fri Sep 3 22:09:31 2004 Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.20040903220917.009c66b0@pop.starpower.net> From: Jim McKenney Subject: Rats vs rats Date: Fri, 03 Sep 2004 22:09:17 -0400 For decades I've been using six-inch cubes of 1/4 inch galvanized wire mesh for crocus and tulips, among others. The mesh is expensive, but it lasts for decades. There will be rough edges, and they're hard on unprotected hands - and just as hard, I hope, on curious noses sniffing around the bulb beds. The question was asked: what bulbs do mice and rats attack? Here are two lists which should guide beginners. Under my conditions, the following are rarely if ever bothered by rodents (some have other problems): hyacinths, squills, glories-of-the-snow, grape hyacinths, ornithogalums, reticulate irises, juno irises, Dutch irises, bearded irises, colchicums, some lilies (those with Lilium candidum or L. henryi in their background in particular, but definitely not most), anemones, ranunculus, alliums, daylilies, aroids in general, Ipheion/Tristagma, Cyclamen (past the yearling stage), Eremurus, peonies, Camassia, Eranthis, some frits and amaryllids in general (Narcissus, Amaryllis, Galanthus, Lycoris, Nerine for instance). The particularly vulnerable sorts include crocus, tulips, erythroniums and most lilies. One aspect of the vole problem has yet to be mentioned in this discussion. Periodically, the vole population burgeons, seemingly exponentially. They become so numerous that they show up in broad daylight. During these periods, there will be feeding frenzies: even ordinarily unpalatable bulbs such as those of small daffodils or the tubers of Anemone blanda or lesser celandine will start to disappear if not protected. I have no idea if these are eaten or just carried off to be stored. During these periods it's not unusual to see big Hosta in the garden go slightly off color: if you give the plant a slight push, the whole thing topples over because the voles have eaten almost all of the roots. After writing the above, I read Kathy Stokmanis' post on the same topic. One caution: half inch mesh would probably not keep out our local voles, some of which are not much bigger than the last two joints of an adult's middle finger. Jim McKenney jimmckenney@starpower.net Montgomery County, Maryland, USA, USDA zone 7, where the dearth of bulbs in the local indigenous flora seems to be telling me something. From voltaire@islandnet.com Fri Sep 3 22:21:18 2004 Message-Id: From: Diane Whitehead Subject: Rats vs rats Date: Fri, 3 Sep 2004 19:20:09 -0700 The rats we have are Rattus rattus, which climb trees and run along wires. I've seen them run up a stucco house wall and they can dive under a closed door without breaking stride. All they need is half an inch and they're in. All my ventilation places are covered with quarter inch hardware cloth. (this is actually heavy wire mesh, despite the name.) To kill them, I tie a piece of thick string on the bait ledge of a breakneck rat trap. I smear peanut butter on the string. Then I set the trap in a tunnel constructed from bricks or a box made of pieces of lumber. The important thing is to make sure a dog or cat isn't going to get at the trap. I leave the trap unset until the rats get used to eating from it, and then set it just before dusk which is when rats emerge to feed. Diane Whitehead Victoria, B.C. From jimmckenney@starpower.net Fri Sep 3 22:36:49 2004 Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.20040903223648.00795100@pop.starpower.net> From: Jim McKenney Subject: Rats vs rats Date: Fri, 03 Sep 2004 22:36:48 -0400 Diane's comments on the use of peanut butter as bait reminded me of some things from my experience as a rodent killer. Peanut butter works well here, too. So does vanilla. Has anyone else noticed how much harder it is to trap rats than it is to trap mice? Rats are a lot more wary. Each fall our house is invaded by two types of mice: house mice and deer mice. Both of these are easily trapped. Rats got into the house once, and it was a nightmare. Warfarin finally got them, but they died in the house and the carcases reeked of a uniquely nauseating vinegar-like odor. And then there was the plague of flies which feasted on the dead bodies in the walls or wherever they were. Does anyone out there grow valerian - and if so, have they tried it for rat bait? Jim McKenney jimmckenney@starpower.net Montgomery County, Maryland, USA, USDA zone 7, where we run a live-and-let-live garden for the most part - but draw the line at rats and yellow jackets. From janemcgary@earthlink.net Fri Sep 3 22:55:08 2004 Message-Id: <5.2.1.1.0.20040903194953.014bb418@mail.earthlink.net> From: Jane McGary Subject: Rats vs rats Date: Fri, 03 Sep 2004 19:55:03 -0700 Arnold wrote, I have heard that there are some rodenticides that don't allow secondary poisoning such as was described in the death of the borzoi. I think it may be zinc phosphide that reacts with the acid in the gastrointestinal tract and releases a gas that poisons the rodent. The gas does its thing and then moves on and secondary poisoning is not a problem. Of >course I would be hesitant about this until I had researched it a bit more. Zinc phosphide was one rodenticide mentioned by the state agent I consulted. It is not used in bait, as far as I could tell -- it is applied to the soil underneath a sheet of plastic, and poisons the rodents directly. It can be obtained in Oregon only by people who have state pesticide applicator's licenses. The poisoned grain I have heard mentioned was said to be treated with strychnine. This does cause secondary poisoning. I thought it likely that the voles would die underground in their tunnels and not be available to scavengers, but I don't have any of this poison, anyway, and am unlikely to use it. There MUST be something appropriate to use, though. I've lost very rare and valuable bulbs at times. The feral cats frequent the bulb frames and surely deter some rodent activity there, although their leavings are disgusting. I don't keep domestic cats because I disapprove of their predation on wild birds. Jane McGary Northwestern Oregon, USA Northwestern From janemcgary@earthlink.net Fri Sep 3 23:00:35 2004 Message-Id: <5.2.1.1.0.20040903195658.01500c00@mail.earthlink.net> From: Jane McGary Subject: Crocus in cans Date: Fri, 03 Sep 2004 20:00:31 -0700 ASusan forwarded this note: > From www.oldhousegardens.com > >>>Do RODENTS Eat Your Crocus? Here's a Solution! > > Joe Eck, writing in Horticulture (March/April 2004), says > "Crocuses can be heartbreakers, since far less benign creatures than bees > are partial to their corms. . . . For this reason, we learned years ago > to plant all our crocuses in black plastic nursery cans, each covered > with a lid of hardware cloth, its corners bent down to clasp the edges. > The cans are buried so that the rims and lids lie about two inches below > the surface of the soil, and the crocus corms are planted deep, up to > eight inches, which prevents them from splitting into tiny cormlets too > small to flower. A two-gallon can will hold a dozen species crocus corms > comfortably and still leave room for multiplying. Our oldest crocuses > planted in this way have been in their cans for 15 years undisturbed, and > still flower abundantly each spring. Also, the perennials that come later > grow happily over and into the cans, seeming to cause the crocuses no > discomfort at all." > >Is this accurate? Yes and no. I plant crocuses in the garden in small-mesh plastic pots and have had them survive a number of years. They aren't that deep, and they don't have wire on the top, because I've found that the bulb plants get deformed when they try to emerge through the wire. I think that in a climate with winter rainfall (I don't know where Mr. Eck gardens), the solid bottom of the pot would prevent drainage and the soil would become stagnant, causing the crocuses to rot. You could, however, cut out the bottom of the pot and replace it with some kind of screen to prevent this. In my experience the buried pot has to be pretty small, or else the rodents just dig in from the top. However, they don't seem to have a clue about small pots. In the bulb frame, the worst losses are always in large pots or bins. Jane McGary Northwestern Oregon, USA From vikingdoc@earthlink.net Sat Sep 4 00:54:01 2004 Message-Id: <410-2200496445437290@earthlink.net> From: "Kathy Stokmanis" Subject: voles and cages Date: Fri, 3 Sep 2004 21:54:37 -0700 My mistake, I did use quarter inch hardware cloth to make the cages, not the half-inch that I stated in my previous post. Voles are tiny. The waste baskets I found also have quarter inch holes. So far I have not had any creatures dig in from the top, in spite of having several cages that are quite large (they are painful to make, sharp edges as someone noted, so the larger and fewer the better). I've been lucky, because everything that I've read seconds Jane's comment about voles surfacing and then tunneling down right by a choice plant. Crushed lava rock buried around the bulb is also supposed to help due to it's abrasiveness and is something that I will be trying this fall. I have watched a hosta frantically waving as a vole pulled the roots further down into it's hole. All of my hostas are currently caged or in pots, too. I understand that voles eat rose roots, as well. Gahh! Nasty recipe, never tried it, must be very sure to keep little children, dogs and other animals away because it's too tempting (part of the reason I've never tried it because all three live here) peanut butter mixed with powdered plaster of paris, tuck in tree branches for the squirrels--unfortunately it would also be quite tempting for birds as well. Might work with voles if buried in their tunnels. I deeply sympathize with those who have lost choice plants. Not one lily or fritillary survived my first year. Kathy Stokmanis Northern California, Mediterranean climate, zone 8/9 From arnold@nj.rr.com Sat Sep 4 08:21:54 2004 Message-Id: <4139B360.70007@nj.rr.com> From: Arnold Trachtenberg Subject: Rats vs rats Date: Sat, 04 Sep 2004 08:21:52 -0400 Jane: This is where you can get the product using zinc phosphide as bait. http://www.pestweb.com/roxide/rodents.htm I saw it in a Lowe's in Mississippi while visiting relatives and the container is not even marked as poison. Arnold From jglatt@ptd.net Sat Sep 4 08:52:27 2004 Message-Id: <000701c4927f$76f3af40$8c9a32d1@oemcomputer> From: "Judy Glattstein" Subject: voles Date: Sat, 4 Sep 2004 09:02:41 -0400 Last winter the voles ate most of the "corm" on my Musa basboo, planted close to the house foundation, which had otherwise survived four winters. They ate every scrap of Canna 'Purpurea' and Alstromeria planted in the same location. My organic pest control devices are slowing down. Madam is 19 years old, Miss Chubette is not as swift as she once was, and the grey shadow is not leaving as many fertilizer packets on the deck as he once did. I read a suggestion of dipping bulbs in Ropel before planting, and also one that suggested using a solution of castor oil to deter moles/ voles in the lawn. I am considering pouring some of both on the banana this fall. Anything that poisons domestic dogs and cats seems likely to kill other canines such as foxes and coyotes, felines such as bobcats. Poisons need to be kept secured, in pest-proof containers: galvanized garbage cans (do they still make these?) or tightly lidded sturdy plastic, with the poison in its original package. A handy, dandy slug bait poison station is easily made from an empty 2-liter plastic soda bottle. Cut it apart at the shoulder. Scissors or a box cutter works well. You now have a cylinder piece and a funnel piece. Insert funnel into cylinder and staple together. Toss some slug bait into the contraption, and lay on the ground. Slugs are attracted to the ? smell of the bait, crawl down the neck and dine on the bait. They are not smart enough to find their way back out. When the contraption gets too raunchy, toss it into the trash and make another one. Side benefit: no slug slime on your hands. A pit trap for small rodents is made by burying a plastic bucket or similar container in the ground. They go in after the bait, and plastic sides are too smooth for them to climb back out. Partially cover lid to make it more attractive to them. Check regularly (daily) and dispose of the critters - they starve fairly rapidly, will cannibalize on each other - you may want them dead but there is no need to be cruel about it. Placed under an angled board, snap traps have no secondary harmful effect to chicken toes, cat paws, etc. Such placement also makes the "run" more attractive to voles and mice. Assiduously set, emptied and reset, they can be quite effective. Better on mice and voles, rats are too smart. Once you trap the first one, the others stay away. Same with rats and poisons, or so I've heard. Ah, the joys of gardening, such a genteel pastime, suitable for ladies in flowered dresses, big brimmed straw hats, gloves, drifting through the garden picking bouquets. Me, I'm in blue jeans hurling rocks and imprecations at the deer. regards from Judy on this Labor Day weekend. From jimmckenney@starpower.net Sat Sep 4 10:51:18 2004 Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.20040904105254.009f7870@pop.starpower.net> From: Jim McKenney Subject: Colchicum macrophyllum Date: Sat, 04 Sep 2004 10:52:54 -0400 At 09:16 PM 8/20/2004 -0400, John Lonsdale wrote: >Colchicum macrophyllum is always first here, and true to form, came through >in a couple of spots a few days ago. > >Does anyone know how much variation there is in this species? I've heard of >white forms? The leaves are large but attractively pleated and it is a >great plant. John, I wish I could share your enthusiasm for Colchicum macrophyllum. You must have a particularly good form. As it bloomed here, the flowers were pale and the tessellation smudgy, more so than even our old friend 'Agrippinum'. My plant of C. variegatum looked just like those seen in Jane's photos on the wiki. As I grew it, it produced small flowers with narrow tepals, but with better color and more clearly differentiated tessellation. This was a step in the right direction, but it was still not the "holy grail" of Colchcium. Maybe the "holy grail" no longer exists, but Bowles described clearly checkered forms with tepals about an inch wide at the base. Col. Grey described a form with flowers "in which the tesselation [sic] is almost as regular as that of a draught-board". Has anyone out there ever seen such plants? Many years ago, when the late Peter de Jager company offered 'Agrippinum' they used a color photograph of a tessellated Colchicum which had much better color and form than any Colchicum variegatum or 'Agrippinum' I've ever seen. As I recall, the flower had a distinctly angular look due to the width of the outer tepals. When the plants of 'Agrippinum' they sent bloomed, I was momentarily confused, so different were they. Jim McKenney jimmckenney@starpower.net Montgomery County, Maryland, USA, USDA zone 7, where I long ago fell under the spell of Parkinson's words "yet when it flowreth any thing early...it is the glorie of all these kindes". From boutin@goldrush.com Sat Sep 4 11:53:30 2004 Message-Id: <00e801c49297$650a0910$973d7143@homecomputer> From: "boutin" Subject: 2004 membership directory? Date: Sat, 4 Sep 2004 08:53:59 -0700 Dear Pat, I was expecting to preview what is listed for me. I don't remember what I said when I signed up for PBS about the first of the year. It is a bit confusing not knowing what is or is not going to be listed. Fred Boutin boutin@goldrush.com PO Box 1450 Tuolumne, CA 95379 zone 7 Currently interested in the genus Ledebouria, particularly the variations of L. socialis. In another life I grew many Hippeastrum species and hybrids. Besides a lifelong interest in cultivated and native plants I have studied palms cultivated in California, Brahea native in Mexico, and the archetypal symbolism of palms. Apropos to PBS several palms are geotropes and almost bulbous. Sincerely, Fred ----- Original Message ----- From: "Pat Colville" To: "Pacific Bulb Society" Sent: Monday, August 23, 2004 8:51 AM Subject: RE: [pbs] 2004 membership directory? > The new directory is nearly complete. For some people we have only name > and address and no information on the other items we list: > Favorite bulbs > Favorite plants > Plant related business > > Would the following people please contact me if you wish to have this > information listed: > Carolyn Craft, Charles Edelman, James R. Fisher, Kenneth Hixson, Dell > Sherk, Chad Schroter, Tom Wells, Robert Werra, Doug Westfall, Mark > Wilcox, Paul Chapman, Mark Smythe, Paul Tyerman and Alf Valjebeck. > > Some of you probably provided this information when you signed up but > the original membership papers are not available to me. > > There is also the possibility that favorites have changed so anybody who > wishes to know what their entry says and might want to change it can > contact me. > > We are expecting to send out the directory with the summer newsletter. > Pat Colville > > -----Original Message----- > From: pbs-bounces@lists.ibiblio.org > [mailto:pbs-bounces@lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf Of Judy Glattstein > Sent: Sunday, August 22, 2004 10:27 AM > To: Pacific Bulb Society > Subject: [pbs] 2004 membership directory? > > Just curious - is there a 2004 membership directory, or are we still > using > the 2003 edition? > > Judy in New Jersey where yesterday's storm rolled away, leaving a > glorious > autumnal sort of day to follow it. Black walnut trees are dropping their > leaves (silly things always go bare months before anything else) and > goldfinches flitter to the thistles, looking for early seed. > Hummingbirds > visit the smaller-flowered cannas, and the last scattering of bloom on > summer phlox. The glowing flowers of Dahlia 'Bishop of Llandaff' are a > color > preview of autumnal hues. The garden centers are already filled with > pots of > chrysanthemums, Halloween candy is on the shelves, and I avert my gaze > for > the first Christmas decorations already on display. > > _______________________________________________ > pbs mailing list > pbs@lists.ibiblio.org > http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php > _______________________________________________ > pbs mailing list > pbs@lists.ibiblio.org > http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php > > > From DaveKarn@aol.com Sat Sep 4 11:54:05 2004 Message-Id: <191.2d9cd811.2e6b3f1c@aol.com> From: DaveKarn@aol.com Subject: REPLY: [pbs] voles Date: Sat, 4 Sep 2004 11:54:04 EDT In a message dated 9/4/04 5:52:37 AM Pacific Daylight Time, jglatt@ptd.net writes: > . . . hurling rocks and imprecations at the deer. > Judy ~ You need to get to know Frans Officer and a long time resident of a southern suburb of Minneapolis noted for its large numbers of deer. He keeps a large can of marbles and a slingshot at several locations around the house and property. He maintains that (as one's accuracy improves!!) this has been a fairly good deer deterrent (he has notable collections of L. Martagon hybrids and species along with hosta and other shade-loving plants under the oak trees that cover the property ). He had said that, now, he has to be surreptitious about opening doors or windows to get a shot at a deer since they are all pretty much wise to the "slingshot effect." Actually, the only permanent deterrent is a double line of fencing about four to five feet apart since they will not jump the inner one when they determine they don't have the space to do so. And there are other methods, as well, including "effective control agents" like cougar and wolves. Best, Dave Karnstedt (a former resident of rural Minnesota where the deer are thicker than voles!!) Silverton, Oregon, USA email: davekarn@AOL.com From JYOURCH@nc.rr.com Sat Sep 4 12:49:53 2004 Message-Id: <0d4a01c4929f$2aae7c30$0200a8c0@Office> From: "Jay Yourch" Subject: voles Date: Sat, 4 Sep 2004 12:49:38 -0400 Judy, I have had success with keeping vole damage to a minimum by placing 14-2-2 Repellex tablets in and around the crown of susceptible plants. It is non-toxic, although not for use on edibles. It has not been very effective for deer or rabbits for me, although the manufacturer makes such claims. You can purchase these from the manufacturer in Canada or you might also find a reseller in the United States. See http://www.repellex.com/ Regards, Jay From totototo@pacificcoast.net Wed Sep 1 23:18:10 2004 Message-Id: From: "Rodger Whitlock" Subject: bulbs in lawns; was: Re: [pbs] Lycoris passeth, Cochicum com Date: Wed, 1 Sep 2004 20:23:08 -700 On 1 Sep 04 at 18:34, Jim McKenney wrote: > ...we have a zoysia lawn. > That big expanse of zoysia was so tempting that I jumped in very > enthusiastically and planted Chionodoxa, Galanthus elwesii and > Crocus speciosus by the thousand. > It looked great on paper. > > I had not taken into account the profusion of lusty winter-growing > weeds. Now I understand so well the meaning of the word > opportunistic. Where in the world did all those weedy Cardamine, > Stellaria, Draba, Ranunculus, Erigeron, Allium and others suddenly > come from? Our soil bank must be the Fort Knox of soil banks. > > In over forty years of mowing that zoysia lawn, I never noticed > these gate crashers in such profusion. Had they been lurking all > that time? To answer your last question in one word: yes. Many weeds are native to areas of constantly disturbed soil, which is a fairly rare natural habitat. Cultivated ground suits them to a "T", however, because the essence of cultivation is regular disturbance of the soil. If you disturb nearly any patch of cultivated soil, you will get profuse germination of weed seeds. Some of these seeds remain viable for decades in the soil -- I think the experimentally determined maximum is well over fifty years. I've faithfully rooted out all the buttercups I can find here and never let them go to seed, but after 16 years, I still get seedlings coming up. Your planting of the bulbs was quite adequate disturbance to cause the observed effect. -- Rodger Whitlock Victoria, British Columbia, Canada Maritime Zone 8, a cool Mediterranean climate on beautiful Vancouver Island From arnold@nj.rr.com Sat Sep 4 15:09:50 2004 Message-Id: <413A12FC.50005@nj.rr.com> From: Arnold Trachtenberg Subject: crinum Date: Sat, 04 Sep 2004 15:09:48 -0400 Jim W.: Thanks for the crinum. My first thought was reminiscent of a line from the movie Jaws. "I think we are going to need a bigger boat" Thanks and Ill be sure to keep the group posted on the progress of the crinum. Arnold New Jersey From jwaddick@kc.rr.com Sat Sep 4 15:55:07 2004 Message-Id: From: James Waddick Subject: Crinums shipped Date: Sat, 4 Sep 2004 14:35:08 -0500 >Thanks for the crinum. My first thought was reminiscent of a line >from the movie Jaws. "I think we are going to need a bigger boat" Dear Arnold and all; By now all of you should have your Crinums. I sent out 23 bulbs weighing around 86 lbs. Felt like a moving company. If you have planting questions I am glad to make suggestions. Feel free to write any time. I hope that in a year or two and successful bloom, you'll want more, bigger, better Crinums. In that case the 'infection' worked. Enjoy. Jim W. ps I planted some left overs and gave others away to local friends. -- Dr. James W. Waddick 8871 NW Brostrom Rd. Kansas City Missouri 64152-2711 USA Ph. 816-746-1949 E-fax 419-781-8594 Zone 5 Record low -23F Summer 100F + From jwaddick@kc.rr.com Sat Sep 4 15:55:10 2004 Message-Id: From: James Waddick Subject: Vole Control - Castor beans? Date: Sat, 4 Sep 2004 14:40:01 -0500 Dear all; I am sorry I even brought up 'tree rats' (squirrels) and glad I didn't mention 'rats with hooves' (white tail deer) or 'flying rats' (Canadian Geese) which are all garden pests in this area. Instead I got wondering as I was harvesting a few pounds of castor bean seed. Can these be sprinkled around for voles and squirrels to nibble on? They are too big for birds and I can't imagine any domestic animals eating them. If they germinate (not likely here) they are obvious and can be pulled out easily. Could I just chuck a few down a vole run? Or might cats eat castor bean dying voles and also be harmed? any experience? Best Jim W. -- Dr. James W. Waddick 8871 NW Brostrom Rd. Kansas City Missouri 64152-2711 USA Ph. 816-746-1949 E-fax 419-781-8594 Zone 5 Record low -23F Summer 100F + From ernestwells@mindspring.com Sat Sep 4 16:14:18 2004 Message-Id: From: Tom Wells Subject: crinum Date: Sat, 4 Sep 2004 13:14:14 -0700 Bigger Boat? I am looking for a new yard to plant it in.......my yard is to small Thanks Tom On Saturday, September 4, 2004, at 12:09 PM, Arnold Trachtenberg wrote: > Jim W.: > > Thanks for the crinum. My first thought was reminiscent of a line > from the movie Jaws. "I think we are going to need a bigger boat" > > Thanks and Ill be sure to keep the group posted on the progress of the > crinum. > > Arnold > New Jersey > > _______________________________________________ > pbs mailing list > pbs@lists.ibiblio.org > http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php > From Pekasky@aol.com Sat Sep 4 17:12:47 2004 Message-Id: From: Pekasky@aol.com Subject: Crinums shipped Date: Sat, 4 Sep 2004 17:12:39 EDT Mr. Waddick: I received my HUGE box of Crinums yesterday. I only asked for three 3lb. bulbs, and didn't realize how much that weighed. I almost got a hernia picking up the box! Thank you so much! I'm waiting to hear from Dell re how much $$ he wants me to send to PBS. Marilyn Pekasky From garrideb@well.com Sat Sep 4 19:07:08 2004 Message-Id: <413A4A61.4000909@well.com> From: "James R. Fisher" Subject: Vole Control - Castor beans? Date: Sat, 04 Sep 2004 19:06:09 -0400 James Waddick wrote: > Dear all; > I am sorry I even brought up 'tree rats' (squirrels) and glad I > didn't mention 'rats with hooves' (white tail deer) or 'flying rats' > (Canadian Geese) which are all garden pests in this area. > > Instead I got wondering as I was harvesting a few pounds of castor > bean seed. Can these be sprinkled around for voles and squirrels to > nibble on? They are too big for birds and I can't imagine any domestic > animals eating them. If they germinate (not likely here) they are > obvious and can be pulled out easily. > > Could I just chuck a few down a vole run? Or might cats eat castor > bean dying voles and also be harmed? any experience? > > Best Jim W. ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ I tried a half-dozen beans where tree rats gather; they nibbled but none fell over. I suspect the ricin content of raw beans is insufficient to harm anything, though I didn't chew on any myself... -jrf -- Jim Fisher Vienna, Virginia USA 38.9 N 77.2 W USDA Zone 7 Max. 105 F [40 C], Min. 5 F [-15 C] From totototo@pacificcoast.net Thu Sep 2 19:28:42 2004 Message-Id: From: "Rodger Whitlock" Subject: Bulbs in lawns Date: Thu, 2 Sep 2004 16:33:41 -700 On 2 Sep 04 at 8:36, James Waddick wrote: > ...tree rats* > * tree rats are also known as grey squirrels, but this is too kind > and avoids calling a rat a rat! I seem to recall from the halcyon days of my undergraduate studies in Pasadena, California that the palms lining some streets were (so the story goes) infested with "tree rats." Allegedly, these would set up housekeeping in the tangle of dead fronds near the top of each palm. So beware: there may already be a critter out there with a prior claim on the epithet "tree rat." [NB the use of the weasel phrases/words "seem to recall", "so the story goes", and "allegedly" in the above account. I never saw one of these "tree rats" and have no idea what they were or whether they even existed. I don't remember seeing gray squirrels in Pasadena, but it's been a l-o-n-g time since I was there.] I find the gray squirrels here, a recent introduction by a misguided fool, do not go after my bulbs. I presume this is because the large English oaks around me, Quercus robur, shower down an abundance of acorns every fall. -- Rodger Whitlock Victoria, British Columbia, Canada Maritime Zone 8, a cool Mediterranean climate on beautiful Vancouver Island From msittner@mcn.org Sun Sep 5 11:33:57 2004 Message-Id: <4.2.2.20040905080246.01a0bc10@mail.mcn.org> From: Mary Sue Ittner Subject: Bulb Predators / Raised Beds Date: Sun, 05 Sep 2004 08:31:42 -0700 Dear All, Jim really got every one's attention this week with his rat (a.k.a. squirrel) question. As for "rats with hooves", I like to call them "pigs on stilts". We fenced our garden piece by piece until finally we decided to do the whole thing. That was after reading everything I could about which plants the deer wouldn't eat and trying deer repellants (home remedies and those your purchased) that didn't work for us. My husband tried the sling shot (briefly) for the squirrels, but the deer generally came at night or when we were gone so that wasn't a solution. And although esthetically two short deer fences since they don't broad jump, just high jump, appealed to me at first, getting help to do two fences instead of one seemed unlikely and maintenance between the fences a challenge as well. On our sloping property with rocky soil, one fence was hard enough. When we first added our deer fence, I was bothered by the white on the top of the poles and Bob bought me green paint so I could mask it. It's amazing how quickly I managed not to see that white when it actually came to doing the job. Most of the time I don't see our wire fence either. Six feet tall is enough if they are jumping uphill, but we have added a higher wire for the other direction. Occasionally a deer gets in during the day when our gate is open and causes havoc with the fence ramming into it when trying to get out in a panic if one of us or the dog is encouraging it to do so. I then feel really sorry for it but also get alarmed about it ruining the fence. When I decided to redo one of my raised beds, Alberto gave me some really helpful ideas and I also borrowed from Jane's description of her frames. I wrote an article about it for the IBSA journal. Anyone who is not an IBSA member who might be interested in reading it contact me privately as I am sure I have it on my computer and could send it as an attachment. Briefly you make a structure, lay hardware cloth on the bottom, add gravel on top, place plastic pots in the order you want, add plunge around them and then plant your bulbs in plastic pots of the same size to nest in the pots in the bed. That takes care of three sides of protection. In my case that has been enough, but if you had gophers, moles, voles, that come out of the ground you could also layer mesh or hardware cloth on the top and add mulch so it doesn't show and then they are completely protected (foliage excepted.) This solution is much easier than making little cages for everything (easier on your hands too) and I found plastic pots much cheaper in bulk in the USA than the mesh ones Jane uses. I saw some really great mesh ones in the U.K. however. I suspect the bulbs like the mesh ones better because the roots can emerge into the plunge and have more room to expand. Being in the ground, the bulbs have more protection from extreme temperatures, and being in containers they are easier to find if you need to divide them, toss them, or share them. Many things have been much happier grown this way and every year I am redoing an old bed as it is a lot of work to do them all at once. Mary Sue From floralartistry2000@yahoo.com Sun Sep 5 12:00:43 2004 Message-Id: <20040905160025.96472.qmail@web50105.mail.yahoo.com> From: Floral Architecture Subject: OT: New England trip in Oct. Date: Sun, 5 Sep 2004 09:00:25 -0700 (PDT) For for the off subject but I would like some input. I am taking my mother to New England the first week in October as we have never been to NE. Can anyone give me some ideas of things that I have to see? We will be going from Cape Cod (Provincetown) to Bar Harbor, ME. WE still have a few open days that have not been planned (mainly the last 2 after Bar Harbor back to Manchester). Any and all info is welcome. Please email me privately so as to not post on the PBS list. Thanks in advance for your help. ===== John Ingram in L.A., CA. www.floralarchitecture.com check it out Floralartistry2000@yahoo.com 310.709.1613 (cell, west coast time, please call accordingly. Thank you) From vikingdoc@earthlink.net Sun Sep 5 12:28:37 2004 Message-Id: <410-22004905162915520@earthlink.net> From: "Kathy Stokmanis" Subject: Bulb predators/raised beds Date: Sun, 5 Sep 2004 09:29:15 -0700 Mary Sue touched on a real plus to caged bulbs--they are easy to find and bulbs don't get split when digging them. Kathy Stokmanis Northern California, Sierra foothills, zone 8/9, hot, dry summers, rainy mild winters. From putman@pobox.upenn.edu Sun Sep 5 15:39:25 2004 Message-Id: <413B6B46.4020404@pobox.upenn.edu> From: Stephen Putman Subject: Two Crinum for trade or sale Date: Sun, 05 Sep 2004 15:38:46 -0400 I am starting to move things back into the greenhouse for the winter. By starting now I hope I'm not going to get caught with loads of plants outside the afternoon before the first frost in October. Over the next several weeks I'll be having plants and bulbs to trade (preferably) or sell. Today, one each small plants of: Crinum variabile Crinum firmifolium Contact me privately at sputman@delanet.com, or putman@pobox.upenn.edu Trades only for species - of things like Hippeastrum, Hymenocallis, smaller Crinum, Nerine, etc. Steve Putman From Steve.Burger@choa.org Mon Sep 6 02:13:05 2004 Message-Id: <0BAB7B6F7D5A53418C3B75FA01DE2BED0550F9B9@CHOAMAIL4.choa.org> From: "Burger, Steve" Subject: Lifting Crinum asiaticum in winter Date: Mon, 6 Sep 2004 02:07:17 -0400 Does anyone have any experience doing this? How do these bulbs like to be stored, and when should I lift them? Before or after the first frost? I plan to overwinter these some day, but I want to get them to a good size before I subject them to that. Thanks, Steve From Steve.Burger@choa.org Mon Sep 6 02:12:57 2004 Message-Id: <0BAB7B6F7D5A53418C3B75FA01DE2BED0550F9BA@CHOAMAIL4.choa.org> From: "Burger, Steve" Subject: Germinating Cardiocrinum giganteum Date: Mon, 6 Sep 2004 02:12:56 -0400 Does anyone have any experience germinating seeds from these? I'm getting some soon and I'm not sure what I need to do? Steve From toadlily@olywa.net Mon Sep 6 04:46:52 2004 Message-Id: <413C1B65.8050306@olywa.net> From: Laura & Dave Subject: Germinating Cardiocrinum giganteum Date: Mon, 06 Sep 2004 01:10:13 -0700 Hi Steve and all I have 5 year, 3 year and 1 year old plants, all germinated from seed. They have been one of the easier plants to grow. I use garden soil that is amended with some course sand and leaf mold. I just put the seed in a 6 inch by 6 inch soil filled pot, cover with a little more soil and a quarter inch of chicken grit, plunge the pot into a sawdust bed and wait for spring. I've tried orienting the seed on edge in half the pot, and laying flat in the other, but couldn't see that it made a bit of difference. Dave Brastow zone 7A (Western Washington, home of the Phantom summer) From totototo@pacificcoast.net Fri Sep 3 17:22:13 2004 Message-Id: From: "Rodger Whitlock" Subject: Rats vs rats Date: Fri, 3 Sep 2004 14:27:05 -700 On 2 Sep 04 at 22:27, Lee Poulsen wrote: > The squirrels on the other hand were a horrible problem. There were > pecan and oak trees in the neighbors' yards so they had plenty to > eat. They never ate any of my plants or bulbs. What they would do, > however, was pull the plants or growing bulbs out of the pots and > put an acorn or pecan in the resulting hole and leave the plant to > wither and die in the daytime sun. Apparently they were lazy > squirrels and didn't want to go to the trouble of digging holes in > the real ground! Each spring I still had to pull seedling oaks or > pecans out of various random pots. I have the same problem with the squirrels here, but the nut mix is acorns-and-filberts. The squirrels are very deft about inserting nuts into pots: it's often impossible to detect any soil disturbance until a seedling emerges. Some of the filbert seedlings are from a proper nut bush next door, others are from the native Corylus douglasii on my own property, but I can't tell their seedlings apart; if I could, I'd pot up the native ones for distribution. For those of you with collections of potted bulbs kept in frames of some sort, a screen or mesh cover will go a long way toward preventing this kind of difficulty. Screen will also keep out flying pests such as bulb fly. -- Rodger Whitlock Victoria, British Columbia, Canada Maritime Zone 8, a cool Mediterranean climate on beautiful Vancouver Island From totototo@pacificcoast.net Fri Sep 3 17:22:08 2004 Message-Id: From: "Rodger Whitlock" Subject: Rats vs rats Date: Fri, 3 Sep 2004 14:27:06 -700 On 2 Sep 04 at 20:55, Susan Hayek wrote: > Are there any bulbs particularly affected by rodents? E A Bowles (I think it was) referred to mice as "vampires" where crocus corms were concerned. -- Rodger Whitlock Victoria, British Columbia, Canada Maritime Zone 8, a cool Mediterranean climate on beautiful Vancouver Island From ptyerman@ozemail.com.au Mon Sep 6 08:51:53 2004 Message-Id: <6.1.2.0.0.20040906224601.03711030@pop.ozemail.com.au> From: Paul Tyerman Subject: Germinating Cardiocrinum giganteum Date: Mon, 06 Sep 2004 22:53:12 +1000 At 04:12 6/09/04, you wrote: >Does anyone have any experience germinating seeds from these? I'm getting >some soon and I'm not sure what I need to do? Steve, Have you ever tried germinating Fritillarias? I have treated mine exactly the same way and have just had a heap germinate. Supposedly viability drops off quite rapidly, but I do not know for sure about that as mine were fresh from my own plant. Basically, I filled a pot with seed raising mix (whatever you use for that) to about 1cm from the top, placed the seeds on the surface and covered with 3-5mm gravel to just below the rim. That is how I tend to treat most of my bulb seed. I noticed this week that the shoots were up quite thickly in the Cardiocrinum pot so it must work I would hazard that these will not like being disturbed much when young as they are a strange type of bulb that seems rather "temporary" when small (I can't think of any other way to describe it). I would be thinking or repotting the whole pot when they have filled it, rather than trying to split them up individually too quickly. Given how large the 4 year old bulb I bought a few years back was I think they grow rather rapidly, so I'd imagine that you'll be repotting in a years time, which is definitely when I would be thinking about just repotting the whole root-mass into a larger pot instead of dividing them up. I think you'll need to get some size on the bulb before you start jeopardising roots. That is my impression anyway but there are likely others here on the list who would have more experience. My cardiocrinum are either freshly germinated or were from a sowing of old seed which barely germinated and so they aren't exactly thick in their pot! LOL I hope that this is of some help? Good luck!! Cheers. Paul Tyerman Canberra, Australia. USDA equivalent - Zone 8/9 Growing.... Galanthus, Erythroniums, Fritillarias, Trilliums, Cyclamen, Crocus, Cyrtanthus, Oxalis, Liliums, Hellebores, Aroids, Irises plus just about anything else that doesn't move!!!!! From Steve.Burger@choa.org Mon Sep 6 09:46:55 2004 Message-Id: <0BAB7B6F7D5A53418C3B75FA01DE2BED0550F9BD@CHOAMAIL4.choa.org> From: "Burger, Steve" Subject: Germinating Cardiocrinum giganteum Date: Mon, 6 Sep 2004 09:46:53 -0400 So you used no cold treatment? Directly sowed and they germinated? Steve -----Original Message----- From: Paul Tyerman [mailto:ptyerman@ozemail.com.au] Sent: Monday, September 06, 2004 08:53 AM To: Pacific Bulb Society Subject: Re: [pbs] Germinating Cardiocrinum giganteum At 04:12 6/09/04, you wrote: >Does anyone have any experience germinating seeds from these? I'm getting >some soon and I'm not sure what I need to do? Steve, Have you ever tried germinating Fritillarias? I have treated mine exactly the same way and have just had a heap germinate. Supposedly viability drops off quite rapidly, but I do not know for sure about that as mine were fresh from my own plant. Basically, I filled a pot with seed raising mix (whatever you use for that) to about 1cm from the top, placed the seeds on the surface and covered with 3-5mm gravel to just below the rim. That is how I tend to treat most of my bulb seed. I noticed this week that the shoots were up quite thickly in the Cardiocrinum pot so it must work I would hazard that these will not like being disturbed much when young as they are a strange type of bulb that seems rather "temporary" when small (I can't think of any other way to describe it). I would be thinking or repotting the whole pot when they have filled it, rather than trying to split them up individually too quickly. Given how large the 4 year old bulb I bought a few years back was I think they grow rather rapidly, so I'd imagine that you'll be repotting in a years time, which is definitely when I would be thinking about just repotting the whole root-mass into a larger pot instead of dividing them up. I think you'll need to get some size on the bulb before you start jeopardising roots. That is my impression anyway but there are likely others here on the list who would have more experience. My cardiocrinum are either freshly germinated or were from a sowing of old seed which barely germinated and so they aren't exactly thick in their pot! LOL I hope that this is of some help? Good luck!! Cheers. Paul Tyerman Canberra, Australia. USDA equivalent - Zone 8/9 Growing.... Galanthus, Erythroniums, Fritillarias, Trilliums, Cyclamen, Crocus, Cyrtanthus, Oxalis, Liliums, Hellebores, Aroids, Irises plus just about anything else that doesn't move!!!!! _______________________________________________ pbs mailing list pbs@lists.ibiblio.org http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php From Steve.Burger@choa.org Mon Sep 6 12:05:08 2004 Message-Id: <0BAB7B6F7D5A53418C3B75FA01DE2BED0550F9BF@CHOAMAIL4.choa.org> From: "Burger, Steve" Subject: Crinum oliganthum Date: Mon, 6 Sep 2004 12:04:57 -0400 I have some small individuals of this plant and hope to get them through winter in the ground here in a moist 7b. Does anyone have much experience with this one, or know anecdotally how hardy it is? Steve From totototo@pacificcoast.net Fri Sep 3 21:05:16 2004 Message-Id: From: "Rodger Whitlock" Subject: Rats vs rats Date: Fri, 3 Sep 2004 18:10:12 -700 On 3 Sep 04 at 9:09, Jane McGary wrote: > The big problem in bulbs is field mice and voles... now [that Koshka > the omnivoroous rat-killing dog] has died... I'm going to contact a > pest control company to see what I can get against these rodents, > so I can grow crocuses in the borders again, and not have to cover > my most precious pots of crocuses with wire mesh caps in the bulb > frames. A lost cause. A veritable King Canute commanding the tide to not come in. The difficulty being that for every field mouse or vole you kill, there are a million more on the circumjacent lands, waiting to move in and fill the vacancy. Now that I've rained on your parade, let me ask an important question with respect to your anti-field-mouse-and-vole wire mesh pot-caps: what mesh size? Actually things aren't *quite* as grim as I make them out to be. Consider the lowly slug. I've read that if you go out at night and sedulously collect and destroy them by flashlight, after five years your slug population will start to go down. You will have become a major predator of sorts. It's easy to imagine that a similar kind of population dynamic would occur with fm&v's. Nuke them thoroughly and frequently and eventually the population will decline, as your property becomes a kind of black hole: anything reaching its boundary just disappears. Just how far the influence of the black hole would extend is anybody's guess. It might be well worth the effort to find out if anyone has estimated the fm&v population per acre in your area (a favorite project for undergraduat biology majors) so as to get a grip on the actual numbers involved instead of whistling in the dark. Good luck! -- Rodger Whitlock Victoria, British Columbia, Canada Maritime Zone 8, a cool Mediterranean climate on beautiful Vancouver Island From totototo@pacificcoast.net Fri Sep 3 21:05:14 2004 Message-Id: From: "Rodger Whitlock" Subject: Rats vs rats Date: Fri, 3 Sep 2004 18:10:12 -700 On 3 Sep 04 at 13:17, Matthew Mattus wrote: > I CAN ADMIT THAT WE HAVE A RAT PROBLEM TOO! Good Lord! This is starting to sound like an AA meeting: "Hello. My name is Matthew and I have a rat problem." "Hello. My name is Jane, and I have a field-mouse and vole problem." [Not to denigrate AA, btw.] > ...my collection of Camellia's from Nuccio's, about 20 potted > trees, too have been abused by rats and squirrels. My elderly > father, who keeps an apt above the car garages, feeds the birds > obsessively. So we find seed spread around the greenhouses, on > benches, on cut wood that we stack for the firesplaces, > everywhere. > We have stopped feeding the birds except at select station, that > have elaborate squirrel protection designed, but getting rid of > them is still aproblem, since we don't want to use poison. If I can chime in once again on this topic of Endless Fascination: You may be able to help the situation by modifying the bird-feeding regimen. The key is to put only one kind of seed in any one feeder. For example, put sunflower seeds in one feeder, black niger thistle in another, and so on. When you put out mixed seed, the birds rummage through it looking for their favorites and scatter the rest with abandon. If you put out unmixed seed, the birds will quickly learn not to waste time on feeders that don't contain their preferred kind. This won't prevent all scattering but will reduce it. > Anyway, now I am not embarrased to admit this little problem with > nature. Rats don't necessarily mean that you have trash, it just > means that they are finding food and shelter. A good friend formerly lived in the proverbial cabin in the woods. He had a bird feeding station that was very popular with the birds. Also the local mice: he caught over sixty mice in his place in the course of one summer. Cause, meet effect. -- Rodger Whitlock Victoria, British Columbia, Canada Maritime Zone 8, a cool Mediterranean climate on beautiful Vancouver Island From ConroeJoe@aol.com Mon Sep 6 12:32:12 2004 Message-Id: <1cf.2a48085e.2e6deb08@aol.com> From: ConroeJoe@aol.com Subject: bulb predators Date: Mon, 6 Sep 2004 12:32:08 EDT Hi, I don't think our major damage is caused by actual predators of bulbs, but we have some animals that cause major damage to plantings and anything in their way. In this area feral pigs and armadillos are the "great destroyers." When pigs are done with a lawn or flower bed it can look as though bulldozers have gone through. They do eat tubers and roots, but I don't know if they have a tasted for garden species--maybe it is the roots of the ornamental grasses they prefer. Armadillos are more limited in the damage they cause and they don't eat bulbs. But they are inexhaustible diggers when on the trail of insects, beetles, worms, etc. A single armadillo can uproot many dozens of bulbs and perennials in a night of earthworm feasting. Luckily, neither of these animals have hit my neighborhood hard yet--the pigs did minor damage a mile up the road. They both abound in the adjacent forest but seem happy to avoid my ferocious Chihuahuas. Joe From ConroeJoe@aol.com Mon Sep 6 13:06:42 2004 Message-Id: From: ConroeJoe@aol.com Subject: wildflowers with corms Date: Mon, 6 Sep 2004 13:06:37 EDT Hi, Liatris don't form bulbs, but they make corms and overwinter nicely out of the soil or in the soil. There are 5-6 (or more) Liatris species that grow locally (Montgomery, Harris and adjacent Texas Counties). I have 2 types growing at the back of my lot. I think one is L. acidota, and the other is L. pycnostachya. Actually, I've never keyed them and am just guessing. L. pycnostachya is listed by USDA as a facultative wetland plant in the Southeast, but I think L. acidota is more a prairie or upland-type species. Whatever they are, they survive soggy conditions for a few weeks each winter and endure summer drought, I never water or fertilize them at the back of the lot. When I have planted them in a regular flower bed, the L. pycnostachya-like species grew tall (4-5 ft.). But, neglected at the back of my yard, neither gets above 2 ft. They germinate easily for me by the outdoor method. I scatter them on the surface of store-bought potting soil in a 1-gallon container (I use soil with little or no peat). Then, I place a bit of soil over them and cover the container with window-screen mesh. I leave them out all winter in sunny position (not hot) and by spring they have germinated. The trick is to watch in spring, when they germinate you have to start regular watering. If I don't put the window-screen mesh over the containers, I lose half the soil to splash. I have seeds for SASE, please write off-list if you like some. Cordially, Joe (conroejoe@aol.com) From ezeizabotgard@hotmail.com Mon Sep 6 14:42:02 2004 Message-Id: From: "Alberto Castillo" Subject: wildflowers with corms Date: Mon, 06 Sep 2004 18:42:00 +0000 >From: ConroeJoe@aol.com >Reply-To: Pacific Bulb Society >To: pbs@lists.ibiblio.org >Subject: [pbs] wildflowers with corms >Date: Mon, 6 Sep 2004 13:06:37 EDT > >Hi, > >Liatris don't form bulbs, but they make corms and overwinter nicely out of >the soil or in the soil. There are 5-6 (or more) Liatris species that grow >locally (Montgomery, Harris and adjacent Texas Counties). I have 2 types >growing >at the back of my lot. I think one is L. acidota, and the other is L. >pycnostachya. Actually, I've never keyed them and am just guessing. > >L. pycnostachya is listed by USDA as a facultative wetland plant in the >Southeast, but I think L. acidota is more a prairie or upland-type species. >Whatever they are, they survive soggy conditions for a few weeks each >winter and >endure summer drought, I never water or fertilize them at the back of the >lot. >When I have planted them in a regular flower bed, the L. pycnostachya-like >species grew tall (4-5 ft.). But, neglected at the back of my yard, >neither gets >above 2 ft. > >They germinate easily for me by the outdoor method. I scatter them on the >surface of store-bought potting soil in a 1-gallon container (I use soil >with >little or no peat). Then, I place a bit of soil over them and cover the >container with window-screen mesh. I leave them out all winter in sunny >position >(not hot) and by spring they have germinated. The trick is to watch in >spring, >when they germinate you have to start regular watering. If I don't put the >window-screen mesh over the containers, I lose half the soil to splash. > >I have seeds for SASE, please write off-list if you like some. > > >Cordially, > >Joe >(conroejoe@aol.com) Hi Joe: My name is Alberto Castillo and I have a Botanical Garden in Argentina in which we preserve many South American bulbous plants by FREELY distributing the seed. I am in the process of recovering from a serious heart surgery last April that proved almost fatal. Fortunately most of the plants have survived and we are always interested in adding more species. As you know, we must add wild origin material preferrably, hence your offering of Liatris seed sounds most exciting. We have grown a few species in the past and they were interesting. Their organ seems to be rather a tuber in which the buds are inserted although of course we would not risk cutting a precious plant to find out. ! Therefore please remember me in case these and other Texan geophytes become available. We can import bulbs or plants without paper work. The ideal number is 25 plants but a more practical one is three (we increase their number from seed sowing in due course). We used to grow a fantastic Texan section years ago and they were very easy here. More soon. Sincerely Alberto _________________________________________________________________ MSN Amor: busca tu ½ naranja http://latam.msn.com/amor/ From ezeizabotgard@hotmail.com Mon Sep 6 14:46:08 2004 Message-Id: From: "Alberto Castillo" Subject: wildflowers with corms Date: Mon, 06 Sep 2004 18:46:06 +0000 >From: ConroeJoe@aol.com >Reply-To: Pacific Bulb Society >To: pbs@lists.ibiblio.org >Subject: [pbs] wildflowers with corms >Date: Mon, 6 Sep 2004 13:06:37 EDT > >Hi, > >Liatris don't form bulbs, but they make corms and overwinter nicely out of >the soil or in the soil. There are 5-6 (or more) Liatris species that grow >locally (Montgomery, Harris and adjacent Texas Counties). I have 2 types >growing >at the back of my lot. I think one is L. acidota, and the other is L. >pycnostachya. Actually, I've never keyed them and am just guessing. > >L. pycnostachya is listed by USDA as a facultative wetland plant in the >Southeast, but I think L. acidota is more a prairie or upland-type species. >Whatever they are, they survive soggy conditions for a few weeks each >winter and >endure summer drought, I never water or fertilize them at the back of the >lot. >When I have planted them in a regular flower bed, the L. pycnostachya-like >species grew tall (4-5 ft.). But, neglected at the back of my yard, >neither gets >above 2 ft. > >They germinate easily for me by the outdoor method. I scatter them on the >surface of store-bought potting soil in a 1-gallon container (I use soil >with >little or no peat). Then, I place a bit of soil over them and cover the >container with window-screen mesh. I leave them out all winter in sunny >position >(not hot) and by spring they have germinated. The trick is to watch in >spring, >when they germinate you have to start regular watering. If I don't put the >window-screen mesh over the containers, I lose half the soil to splash. > >I have seeds for SASE, please write off-list if you like some. > > >Cordially, > >Joe >(conroejoe@aol.com) Hi Joe: My name is Alberto Castillo and I have a Botanical Garden in Argentina in which we preserve many South American bulbous plants by FREELY distributing the seed. I am in the process of recovering from a serious heart surgery last April that proved almost fatal. Fortunately most of the plants have survived and we are always interested in adding more species. As you know, we must add wild origin material preferrably, hence your offering of Liatris seed sounds most exciting. We have grown a few species in the past and they were interesting. Their organ seems to be rather a tuber in which the buds are inserted although of course we would not risk cutting a precious plant to find out. ! Therefore please remember me in case these and other Texan geophytes become available. We can import bulbs or plants without paper work. The ideal number is 25 plants but a more practical one is three (we increase their number from seed sowing in due course). We used to grow a fantastic Texan section years ago and they were very easy here. More soon. Sincerely Alberto _________________________________________________________________ MSN Amor: busca tu ½ naranja http://latam.msn.com/amor/ From tony@plantdelights.com Mon Sep 6 15:58:15 2004 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.20040906155822.02740d48@66.39.59.108> From: Tony Avent Subject: rhodophiala Date: Mon, 06 Sep 2004 15:58:22 -0400 Dear Alberto: Good to hear you contributing again. In 2001, you shared seed of Rhodophiala bifida Carmine Pink Form with the bulb society. Our plants from those seed have flowered beautifully this year and all were pink except for two red flowered forms. I'm curious if the pink and red flowered forms grow side by side or are there pink flowered populations and separated red flowered populations? Thanks in advance. Tony Avent Plant Delights Nursery @ Juniper Level Botanic Garden 9241 Sauls Road Raleigh, NC 27603 USA Minimum Winter Temps 0-5 F Maximum Summer Temps 95-105F USDA Hardiness Zone 7b email tony@plantdelights.com website http://www.plantdel.com phone 919 772-4794 fax 919 772-4752 "I consider every plant hardy until I have killed it myself...at least three times" - Avent From mmattus@charter.net Mon Sep 6 20:51:00 2004 Message-Id: From: Matthew Mattus Subject: Nerine sarniensis propagation Date: Mon, 06 Sep 2004 20:51:07 -0400 Hi Everyone. My Nerine sarniensis collection, is starting to take some shape as it builds in volume. My interest in these hybrids is growing, and I now have about 30 or so named vintage crosses, mostly from Springbank Nurseries and old Exbury crosses, as well as some of my own. I am interested in propagating some of my crosses, that are of blooming size. I bulb-chiped some, twin scaled a couple, and am now attempting to twin scale in vitro in a home made laboratory in a spare bedroom (what am I thinking!). I am using an article in Science on twinscaling Crinum. A scientist clearly I am not, but merely a home botanist experimenting ina home made lab. I purchased,some Benzylaminopurine in which the study with Crinum showed some positive results with stimulating twin-scaled amaryllids, and I am using a Murashige and Skoog medium with macro and micro nutrients which also tested well. I can't find any written research on plant cell propagation with Nerine sarniensis, but I do know that it is a preferred method in the Netherlands. Any advice, as well a a good dose of sterilized luck is appreciated! A note on the garden... Cool weather here in New England signaled the watering in the greenhouse to the summer dormant South African Bulbs. No buds yet on the N. sarniensis. Our four plants of cryptostephanus, gifts from when we visited Mr. Nakamura in Japan, are so much happier now that I left one out in the summer rains, and not in the greenhouse. It bloomed three times this summer, and is now huge...so now I bring all of them out. The same goes for the evasive Cyrtanthus elatus, all three are happiest in the summer thundershowers on the deck. Who knows if they will ever bloom, but they are now busting at the rims of their 8" pots. These were bulblets that I purchased at the IBS symposium three years ago. We won't move everything else back in until October 1st, but as usual, there is less room every year. You know what I mean. If anyone in New England is interested, we will be selling our Clivia's at the Tower Hill Botanical Garden Fall Specialist plant sale this weekend Sept. 11th, about 50 Nakamura crosses. Also, since we need room, we are welcoming trades. Name your wish! I'm interested in Nerine species. We stareted planting in the little Frit house this fall. A little julliette greenhouse, that we are dedicating to frits. Not sure if I need heating cables or not in the sand plunge bed. Any advice? Temps here can reach 10F below, but should only be about 10F above in the house). Thanks to Tony Avents inspiration, we are digging in all of our crinums, vcrazy, we know, since we live in New England, but since we don't want them anymore, and need room, let's see what makes it. We only have a few, but who knows, two feet deep in a New England farm field, maybe one will live! That's all for now Regards Matt Mattus Worcester, Massachusetts, USA USA Zone 5 From eez55@earthlink.net Mon Sep 6 21:45:51 2004 Message-Id: <41200492715242820@earthlink.net> From: "Eugene Zielinski" Subject: Germinating Cardiocrinum giganteum Date: Mon, 6 Sep 2004 21:52:42 -0400 I checked Norm Deno's research, and he's pretty much convinced that the seed loses viability fairly rapidly in dry storage. In other words, old seed will be "difficult to germinate." So, sow the seed as soon as you can, or keep it moist if you can't sow it right away. As far as temperature is concerned, I can't find a definite pattern in the research. (He tried temperatures of 40 F and 70 F. I can send you an e mail with the entire text - it isn't that long - if you'd like.) I'd recommend outdoor sowing in pots, but I don't speak from experience here. Eugene Zielinski Augusta, GA > [Original Message] > From: Burger, Steve > To: > Cc: > Date: 9/6/04 2:12:56 AM > Subject: [pbs] Germinating Cardiocrinum giganteum > > Does anyone have any experience germinating seeds from these? I'm = > getting some soon and I'm not sure what I need to do? > > Steve > _______________________________________________ > pbs mailing list > pbs@lists.ibiblio.org > http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php From dkramb@badbear.com Mon Sep 6 21:58:40 2004 Message-Id: <6.1.0.6.0.20040906214821.01b7eb88@pop.bizland.com> From: Dennis Kramb Subject: wildflowers with corms Date: Mon, 06 Sep 2004 21:58:42 -0400 >Hi Joe: > My name is Alberto Castillo and I have a Botanical Garden in > Argentina in which we preserve many South American bulbous plants by > FREELY distributing the seed. I am in the process of recovering from a > serious heart surgery last April that proved almost fatal. Fortunately > most of the plants have survived and we are always interested in adding > more species. As you know, we must add wild origin material preferrably, > hence your offering of Liatris seed sounds most exciting. We have grown a > few species in the past and they were interesting. Their organ seems to > be rather a tuber in which the buds are inserted although of course we > would not risk cutting a precious plant to find out. ! Therefore please > remember me in case these and other Texan geophytes become available. We > can import bulbs or plants without paper work. The ideal number is 25 > plants but a more practical one is three (we increase their number from > seed sowing in due course). We used to grow a fantastic Texan section > years ago and they were very easy here. >More soon. >Sincerely >Alberto Hi Alberto, nice to "meet" you. I think that's a great policy your Botanical Garden has! I wish more organizations shared that philosophy. I'm also glad to hear you're recovering from a nearly fatal surgery! I hope you can make an excellent recovery. I have been relatively quiet on this group, but your message has encouraged me to respond. I have a web database for identifying Iris species, and the information on South American species is very poor. I wonder if you could direct me to a source of info/photos? The site is located at http://www.badbear.com/signa/ Dennis in Cincinnati (Ohio, USA) From JYOURCH@nc.rr.com Mon Sep 6 22:21:49 2004 Message-Id: <000501c49481$6ddf9dc0$0200a8c0@Office> From: "Jay Yourch" Subject: Lifting Crinum asiaticum in winter Date: Mon, 6 Sep 2004 22:21:45 -0400 Steve Burger wrote: >Does anyone have any experience doing this? How do these bulbs like to be stored, >and when should I lift them? Before or after the first frost? Steve, I have not done this because generally Crinum resent disturbance. I have wintered some Crinum asiaticum in containers in an unheated, but frost free, garage. I kept the soil moist, but overly so. The plants declined with the lack of heat, but did fine and took right off as outdoor temperatures warmed up. I have also wintered a medium sized C. asiaticum in one of the warmest locations in the garden (a moderately sloped south facing bank that is bathed in winter sun). It has survived and grown out there since spring 2001. I throw some extra mulch around it after the frosts take it down. If these are very small plants you may want to dig them and because they are small you can probably get most of the roots without disturbing them too badly, but I don't think that replanting in the spring and digging each fall will be a long term option with flowering sized plants. So either pick a big container or find your warmest microclimate. Even better, if you have multiple plants, hedge your bets and do some of each. Regards, Jay Central North Carolina, USA (USDA Zone 7b) From JYOURCH@nc.rr.com Mon Sep 6 22:32:33 2004 Message-Id: <000201c49482$ed5ad9b0$0200a8c0@Office> From: "Jay Yourch" Subject: Crinum oliganthum Date: Mon, 6 Sep 2004 22:32:30 -0400 Steve Burger wrote: >I have some small individuals of this plant and hope to get them through >winter in the ground >here in a moist 7b. Does anyone have much experience >with this one, or know anecdotally how >hardy it is? Steve, I have read that C. oliganthum is cold hardy to Zone 7 and being in the americanum/erubescens line this is believable. This is my first season with this plant and I intend to winter it in the ground in a moist sheltered position with a bit of extra mulch. I am fairly confident I will see this one pop back up next spring. Regards, Jay Central North Carolina, USA (USDA Zone 7b) From Steve.Burger@choa.org Mon Sep 6 22:51:54 2004 Message-Id: <0BAB7B6F7D5A53418C3B75FA01DE2BED05FE1B82@CHOAMAIL4.choa.org> From: "Burger, Steve" Subject: Germinating Cardiocrinum giganteum Date: Mon, 6 Sep 2004 22:46:36 -0400 That text would be great. Thanks. Steve -----Original Message----- From: Eugene Zielinski [mailto:eez55@earthlink.net] Sent: Mon 9/6/2004 9:52 PM To: pbs@lists.ibiblio.org. Cc: Subject: RE: [pbs] Germinating Cardiocrinum giganteum I checked Norm Deno's research, and he's pretty much convinced that the seed loses viability fairly rapidly in dry storage. In other words, old seed will be "difficult to germinate." So, sow the seed as soon as you can, or keep it moist if you can't sow it right away. As far as temperature is concerned, I can't find a definite pattern in the research. (He tried temperatures of 40 F and 70 F. I can send you an e mail with the entire text - it isn't that long - if you'd like.) I'd recommend outdoor sowing in pots, but I don't speak from experience here. Eugene Zielinski Augusta, GA > [Original Message] > From: Burger, Steve > To: > Cc: > Date: 9/6/04 2:12:56 AM > Subject: [pbs] Germinating Cardiocrinum giganteum > > Does anyone have any experience germinating seeds from these? I'm = > getting some soon and I'm not sure what I need to do? > > Steve > _______________________________________________ > pbs mailing list > pbs@lists.ibiblio.org > http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php _______________________________________________ pbs mailing list pbs@lists.ibiblio.org http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php From ptyerman@ozemail.com.au Tue Sep 7 08:55:41 2004 Message-Id: <6.1.2.0.0.20040907224405.033fa780@pop.ozemail.com.au> From: Paul Tyerman Subject: Germinating Cardiocrinum giganteum Date: Tue, 07 Sep 2004 22:56:21 +1000 At 11:46 6/09/04, you wrote: >So you used no cold treatment? Directly sowed and they germinated? Steve, It is currently early spring here, so they had a natural cold treatment. I harvested them and sowed them within 24 hours from memory..... I'll have to check my records to see exactly when that was. I gave them just the same as I do for any other seed, no special treatment for them in particular. They are in a shaded area that is dedicated to my pots of seeds. I sowed my first bulb seeds in '99....... now it is totally out of hand and I generally sow a couple of hundred pots a year, which you'd realise was a BIG mistake if you saw how small my garden is and how much everything is already packed into it!! Still, not as bad as some people I heard of, although they are usually the people who have a nursery or acreage or something!! LOL OK, I just went and checked. I sowed the seed in June as this year for some reason the seed pods on the Cardiocrinum took AGES to mature. I leave them on the plant until the pod actually starts to split naturally. This happened this year in early June and I pretty much sowed the seed within the next couple of days as I mentioned above. To be honest I wasn't really expecting them to germinate until next spring as I think the other ones that I had germinate from the older seed took a full year + to germinate..... I certainly wasn't expecting just a few months, but that is definitely the case. A very good germination rate too by the look of it as the pot is pretty much packed with shoots. So if you're getting very fresh seed just go ahead and plant it (or some of it outside and try cold treatment for others etc.). Good luck!! Cheers. Paul Tyerman Canberra, Australia. USDA equivalent - Zone 8/9 Where it is raining!!!!!!!! Yeah!! We've had more rain (around 95mm) in the last 2 weeks than we've had in the last 7 months put together, and Oh Boy is it overdue. Feels like there might be hope after all. Hopefully it keeps up a bit longer yet though. You can just about hear the plants rejoicing! From totototo@pacificcoast.net Sat Sep 4 18:54:38 2004 Message-Id: From: "Rodger Whitlock" Subject: voles Date: Sat, 4 Sep 2004 15:59:17 -700 On 4 Sep 04 at 9:02, Judy Glattstein wrote: > ...snap traps... A "Tin Cat" seems to work pretty well; that's what my forest- dwelling friend used to catch the five dozen mice in his place. It's a live trap, so you still have the moral and ethical hurdle of destroying what it catches. -- Rodger Whitlock Victoria, British Columbia, Canada Maritime Zone 8, a cool Mediterranean climate on beautiful Vancouver Island From jimmckenney@starpower.net Tue Sep 7 10:06:24 2004 Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.20040907100651.009fd100@pop.starpower.net> From: Jim McKenney Subject: Germinating Cardiocrinum giganteum Date: Tue, 07 Sep 2004 10:06:51 -0400 At 02:12 AM 9/6/2004 -0400, Steve Burger wrote: >Does anyone have any experience germinating seeds from these? I'm getting some soon and I'm not sure what I need to do? Steve, you don't mention if you are getting fresh seed or dried seed - it will make a difference. Dried seed will try your patience. A batch germinated for me several years ago three years after being sown. One very curious thing about this batch: almost every seed germinated within a week of the others - after sitting there for three years doing "nothing". Germination was in typical epigeal fashion, and the resulting seedlings were no larger or more robust than those of most typical lilies. For some reason I expected such a big plant to give husky seedlings; but no, they were rather frail. Jim McKenney jimmckenney@starpower.net Montgomery County, Maryland, USA, USDA zone 7 From jimmckenney@starpower.net Tue Sep 7 14:54:05 2004 Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.20040907145441.009f5100@pop.starpower.net> From: Jim McKenney Subject: Sternbergia lutea Date: Tue, 07 Sep 2004 14:54:41 -0400 Sternbergia lutea has started to bloom here in Montgomery County, Maryland, USA, USDA zone 7. Jim McKenney jimmckenney@starpower.net From Blee811@aol.com Tue Sep 7 18:24:59 2004 Message-Id: <1e5.29fc8807.2e6f8f31@aol.com> From: Blee811@aol.com Subject: Sternbergia lutea Date: Tue, 7 Sep 2004 18:24:49 EDT In a message dated 9/7/2004 2:54:23 PM Eastern Standard Time, jimmckenney@starpower.net writes: > Sternbergia lutea has started to bloom here in Montgomery County, Maryland, > USA, USDA zone 7. > Only foliage so far here in SW Ohio, z6a. Bill Lee From jimmckenney@starpower.net Tue Sep 7 20:25:56 2004 Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.20040907202527.009786c0@pop.starpower.net> From: Jim McKenney Subject: Colchicum in the garden Date: Tue, 07 Sep 2004 20:25:27 -0400 To judge by the array of photos on the wiki, we have some real colchicum enthusiasts out there. I'm guessing that they too have wrestled with the problem of how to place colchicum in the garden. I have a small garden, and so some of the traditional solutions to this problem - for instance, place them in the shrubbery - are not an option here. I grow the bulk of the "collection" in a raised bed outside of the garden proper. That sort of backyard monoculture strikes me as being more in the nature of agriculture than horticulture - it's certainly not gardening in my book. But there are a few cultivars which I have in some quantity, these being varieties which are well adapted to local conditions (something I have learned from sad experience cannot be taken for granted with these plants). There isn't room in the raised beds for these, and I want some Colchicum in the garden itself - but where? A lifetime of gardening has not provided a totally acceptable answer. The problem as I see it is that Colchicum bloom at a really awkward time: forget what you have read about these plants being autumn bloomers. They bloom during the last month of summer, and if your garden is anything like mine, they bloom when the garden is at its peak of annual color and floral diversity. The flowers of late summer blooming Colchicum come in two basic colors: white and a very cold pink. Those colors are no competition for everything else going on in the garden when they bloom. Unless they are placed very carefully, Colchicum flowers seem to look as if they have a hangover. I've come up with one solution here which is pretty good if not perfect. I have a big patch of leadwort, Ceratostigma plumbaginoides, among which grow some fine hybrid Colchicum. This works fairly well: the leadwort is very late to sprout early in the season while the Colchicum foliage is doing its thing. Then, late in the summer when the leadwort is in full bloom, the chilly color of the Colchicum flowers finds a nice compliment in the bright blue of the leadwort. On reason this is not perfect is this: nearby grow some handsome Sternbergia lutea. They make a much brighter contrast with the leadwort flowers. I can't look at the Colchicum/leadwort combination without thinking that it really should be a Sternbergia/leadwort grouping. Anyway, the Colchicum/leadwort combination is the best one I have come up with. What are others doing? Jim McKenney jimmckenney@starpower.net Montgomery County, Maryland, USA, USDA zone 7, where it tickles me that fifty years after Plumbago larpentae became Ceratostigma plumbaginoides, garden writers were still referring to the "recent name change". After making that crack, I decided to do a IPNI search on the name. Guess what? It's not plumbaginoides (which is the spelling used in all the standard references in my library going back to the beginning of the twentieth century), it's plumbaginioides. So, fifty years from now, will some garden writer be saying "the name recently changed from plumbaginoides to plumbaginioides"? Or will plain thinking botanists revolt against these nit picking name tamperings? And what does this word plumbaginioides mean? Something like "like a little Plumbago" -plumbago + the diminutive ini + oides ? And what's with this three-vowels-in-a-row business? What's this supposed to be, Homeric Greek? Didn't these folks ever hear of elision? From hornig@usadatanet.net Tue Sep 7 20:49:22 2004 Message-Id: <192420-220049380496536@M2W077.mail2web.com> From: "hornig@usadatanet.net" Subject: Colchicum in the garden Date: Tue, 7 Sep 2004 20:49:06 -0400 I've just put in a drift of colchicum in the forward area of a garden, backed up by a drift of my fanciest silver-centered blue-leaved Arisaema consanguineum (these are seedlings from which I hope to select a couple to develop). My thinking is that when the colchicums bloom, their color goes well with the blue arisaemas (it does); before they bloom, the arisaemas will draw the eye up and away from the absent colchicums (I'll need to put some flat groundcover there - perhaps a blue-red sedum such as 'Bertram Anderson' or 'E.B. Anderson, whichever it is); and in spring, before the arisaemas emerge (they come up in July), the colchicum foliage will distract from the absence of the arisaemas (again, I may look for something small scale to fill in there -perhaps Cyclamen coum, which, as Panayoti Kelaidis once pointed out to me, makes an excellent interplanting with late emerging arisaemas. The cyclamen occupy the stage from early fall (foliage emerges) to late spring; the arisaemas emerge after the cyclamen go dormant, and start getting shabby as the cyclamen develop). Ellen Hornig Seneca Hill Perennials Oswego NY USA Zone 5 w/outstanding winter snow cover Original Message: ----------------- From: Jim McKenney jimmckenney@starpower.net Date: Tue, 07 Sep 2004 20:25:27 -0400 To: pbs@lists.ibiblio.org Subject: [pbs] Colchicum in the garden To judge by the array of photos on the wiki, we have some real colchicum enthusiasts out there. I'm guessing that they too have wrestled with the problem of how to place colchicum in the garden. I have a small garden, and so some of the traditional solutions to this problem - for instance, place them in the shrubbery - are not an option here. I grow the bulk of the "collection" in a raised bed outside of the garden proper. That sort of backyard monoculture strikes me as being more in the nature of agriculture than horticulture - it's certainly not gardening in my book. But there are a few cultivars which I have in some quantity, these being varieties which are well adapted to local conditions (something I have learned from sad experience cannot be taken for granted with these plants). There isn't room in the raised beds for these, and I want some Colchicum in the garden itself - but where? A lifetime of gardening has not provided a totally acceptable answer. The problem as I see it is that Colchicum bloom at a really awkward time: forget what you have read about these plants being autumn bloomers. They bloom during the last month of summer, and if your garden is anything like mine, they bloom when the garden is at its peak of annual color and floral diversity. The flowers of late summer blooming Colchicum come in two basic colors: white and a very cold pink. Those colors are no competition for everything else going on in the garden when they bloom. Unless they are placed very carefully, Colchicum flowers seem to look as if they have a hangover. I've come up with one solution here which is pretty good if not perfect. I have a big patch of leadwort, Ceratostigma plumbaginoides, among which grow some fine hybrid Colchicum. This works fairly well: the leadwort is very late to sprout early in the season while the Colchicum foliage is doing its thing. Then, late in the summer when the leadwort is in full bloom, the chilly color of the Colchicum flowers finds a nice compliment in the bright blue of the leadwort. On reason this is not perfect is this: nearby grow some handsome Sternbergia lutea. They make a much brighter contrast with the leadwort flowers. I can't look at the Colchicum/leadwort combination without thinking that it really should be a Sternbergia/leadwort grouping. Anyway, the Colchicum/leadwort combination is the best one I have come up with. What are others doing? Jim McKenney jimmckenney@starpower.net Montgomery County, Maryland, USA, USDA zone 7, where it tickles me that fifty years after Plumbago larpentae became Ceratostigma plumbaginoides, garden writers were still referring to the "recent name change". After making that crack, I decided to do a IPNI search on the name. Guess what? It's not plumbaginoides (which is the spelling used in all the standard references in my library going back to the beginning of the twentieth century), it's plumbaginioides. So, fifty years from now, will some garden writer be saying "the name recently changed from plumbaginoides to plumbaginioides"? Or will plain thinking botanists revolt against these nit picking name tamperings? And what does this word plumbaginioides mean? Something like "like a little Plumbago" -plumbago + the diminutive ini + oides ? And what's with this three-vowels-in-a-row business? What's this supposed to be, Homeric Greek? Didn't these folks ever hear of elision? _______________________________________________ pbs mailing list pbs@lists.ibiblio.org http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php -------------------------------------------------------------------- mail2web - Check your email from the web at http://mail2web.com/ . From jimmckenney@starpower.net Tue Sep 7 21:31:42 2004 Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.20040907213126.009f7240@pop.starpower.net> From: Jim McKenney Subject: Colchicum in the garden Date: Tue, 07 Sep 2004 21:31:26 -0400 At 08:49 PM 9/7/2004 -0400, Ellen Hornig wrote: a drift of my fanciest silver-centered blue-leaved Arisaema consanguineum...something small scale to fill in there -perhaps Cyclamen coum, which, as Panayoti Kelaidis once pointed out to me, makes an excellent interplanting with late emerging arisaemas. Wow! Ellen, that sound like something worth the drive up to Oswego to see! But it probably won't work for me: Cyclamen coum rots here during the summer unless it has very sharp drainage (hardly what I think of as Arisaema conditions), and the forms of Arisaema consanguineum I have somehow seem ill at ease under my conditions - as if they were looking for a way out. On the other hand, in mentioning the Sedum you've touched on one of my current enthusiasms. For several years now I've been collecting Sedum of the pleuricaule-cauticola-lidakense (or whatever)-sieboldii-Vera Jameson-Bertram Anderson sorts. These plants, with their blue-gray foliage and pink and red flowers, are serenely harmonious with themselves, interesting early in the year before the new growth has grown out very much, and to my tastes very elegant in an understated way. And they would be ideal for use with big Colchicum (I have not done it yet). For small Colchicum there are several tiny blue foliaged sorts (as I recall, Alpine-L had a thread on this topic earlier this year). So thanks, Ellen, for pointing us in this direction. Jim McKenney jimmckenney@starpower.net Montgomery County, Maryland, USA, USDA zone 7, where for years I wrote Sedum cauticolum, not realizing that cauticola was a noun with its own gender. From JYOURCH@nc.rr.com Tue Sep 7 23:21:52 2004 Message-Id: <000201c49552$fbe37020$0200a8c0@Office> From: "Jay Yourch" Subject: Sternbergia lutea Date: Tue, 7 Sep 2004 23:21:50 -0400 Jim McKenney wrote: > Sternbergia lutea has started to bloom here in Montgomery County, > Maryland, > USA, USDA zone 7. I also have a few Sternbergia lutea blooming here in Wake County, central North Carolina, USA (USDA Zone 7b). This is just a tease so far, most have not emerged yet, but Rhodophiala bifida and Lycoris radiata are at peak bloom now. A few of the orangey-red Lycoris radiata are in a position to do a fantastic job of clashing with the magenta-pink of the Anemone 'September Charm' which hitchhiked into this bed on another plant and is now taking over. Probably would be easiest to move these few Lycoris to another location. Then again, the offending combination does not last long and I may just forget about it until this time next year. Regards, Jay From jwaddick@kc.rr.com Wed Sep 8 09:21:24 2004 Message-Id: From: James Waddick Subject: Sternbergia lutea Date: Wed, 8 Sep 2004 08:13:58 -0500 Dear all; I have two small clumps of Sternbergia lutea. I have a few flowers on the clump from a wild Italian source, but these seem way too early. The standard / commercial Dutch source has not yet bloomed. Another indication of the difference in provenance? Best Jim W. -- Dr. James W. Waddick 8871 NW Brostrom Rd. Kansas City Missouri 64152-2711 USA Ph. 816-746-1949 E-fax 419-781-8594 Zone 5 Record low -23F Summer 100F + From janemcgary@earthlink.net Wed Sep 8 12:10:46 2004 Message-Id: <5.2.1.1.0.20040908090855.0146e648@mail.earthlink.net> From: Jane McGary Subject: Colchicum in the garden Date: Wed, 08 Sep 2004 09:10:40 -0700 >At 08:49 PM 9/7/2004 -0400, Ellen Hornig wrote: > >a drift of my fanciest silver-centered blue-leaved Arisaema >consanguineum... And Jim said, >Wow! Ellen, that sound like something worth the drive up to Oswego to see! You can see Ellen's fancy arisaemas in the fall issue of the Rock Garden Quarterly, which is mailed on October 15. If you don't belong to NARGS, this is a good time to join, since the annual dues are going up by $5 on January 1, 2005. Jane McGary the far from disinterested editor of said Quarterly From onager@midtown.net Wed Sep 8 12:47:29 2004 Message-Id: <6.1.0.6.2.20040908092624.01de4a70@ms2.midtown.net> From: Joyce Miller Subject: Sternbergia lutea Date: Wed, 08 Sep 2004 09:33:48 -0700 Hi All, In Sacramento, California, my Sternbergia lutea is just about out of bloom. USDA 9. It is my harbinger that Fall and cool is only two months away. Wx predicted to be 104 today. Agh! After several years of trying, I have given up on Lycoris almost. Years ago, bulbs from China through James Waddick never came up. I think they returned to China. L. aurea, so lovely, I went in the yard frequently during the day to view it. Magnificent. Never returned. Lycoris cultivars from Lauw bloomed beautifully the first year but never returned. More recently, a friend gave me some L. radiata from his parent's farm. They were not planted till the following spring, and were in poor condition. Then I heard L. radiata was about the only one that would survive our hot summers. Miraculously, 2003 brought a leaf from two of the bulbs. This year, one leaf and one bloom. Kind regards, Joyce Miller Joyce E. Miller mailto:onager@midtown.net Zone USDA 9A Summer highs 100+degrees F for several to many days. Winter lows 27 degrees F From buj.joschko@freenet.de Wed Sep 8 14:43:17 2004 Message-Id: From: "Hans und Babs Joschko" Subject: AW: [pbs] Sternbergia lutea Date: Wed, 8 Sep 2004 20:43:17 +0200 Dear Sternbergia friends , Here is a little report from South West Germany : On this time flowering by me ( in my bulbframe ) : Sternbergia lutea ( f. sicula ) coll. by me from Apulia / Italy , I have send seeds from this plants to Dell before some days for the BX. From my other Sternb. lutea ( coll. by me from Sardinia ) only leaves, this plants always comes later ( grows free in my garden). My last Sternbergia ( clusii ) coll. from the Island of Samos, is always the last - flowering in October or November ( (they grows free in my garden ). Also flowering on this time : Narcissus serotoninus ( Apulia ) and Leucojum ( roseum , autumanalis , valentinum ) Best wishes Johann Zone 7a D - 77972 Mahlberg Germany -----Ursprungliche Nachricht----- Von: pbs-bounces@lists.ibiblio.org [mailto:pbs-bounces@lists.ibiblio.org]Im Auftrag von James Waddick Gesendet: Mittwoch, 8. September 2004 15:14 An: Pacific Bulb Society Betreff: Re: [pbs] Sternbergia lutea Dear all; I have two small clumps of Sternbergia lutea. I have a few flowers on the clump from a wild Italian source, but these seem way too early. The standard / commercial Dutch source has not yet bloomed. Another indication of the difference in provenance? Best Jim W. -- Dr. James W. Waddick 8871 NW Brostrom Rd. Kansas City Missouri 64152-2711 USA Ph. 816-746-1949 E-fax 419-781-8594 Zone 5 Record low -23F Summer 100F + _______________________________________________ pbs mailing list pbs@lists.ibiblio.org http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php From ang.por@aliceposta.it Wed Sep 8 14:55:15 2004 Message-Id: <001401c495d4$cd00bec0$be5e3352@computer> From: "Angelo Porcelli" Subject: Sternbergia lutea Date: Wed, 8 Sep 2004 20:51:07 +0200 Dear all; here in south of Italy it's still to eaarly for Sterbergia lutea, as we haven't got any rain so far. Usually it flowers late September to all October. Anyway, for those interested, this is the order of apparition of the '"characters" of the little spring ( which would be the autumn in Mediterranean climate) in my area: Urginea maritima Scilla autumnalis Narcissus serotinus Sternbergia lutea Colchicum cupanii Crocus thomasii So far only Urginea is blooming, so the show is still to come. Angelo From ang.por@aliceposta.it Wed Sep 8 14:59:07 2004 Message-Id: <002401c495d5$58cb2ee0$be5e3352@computer> From: "Angelo Porcelli" Subject: Sternbergia lutea Date: Wed, 8 Sep 2004 20:55:01 +0200 Oops, forgot Cyclamen hederifolium, which flowers continuously from middle September later, overlapping all the others. Angelo From jimmckenney@starpower.net Wed Sep 8 16:45:53 2004 Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.20040908164533.009fea40@pop.starpower.net> From: Jim McKenney Subject: Scilla scilloides was: Re: [pbs] Sternbergia lutea Date: Wed, 08 Sep 2004 16:45:33 -0400 At 08:51 PM 9/8/2004 +0200, Angelo Procelli wrote: this is the order of apparition of >the '"characters" of the little spring ( which would be the autumn in >Mediterranean climate) in my area: ...Scilla autumnalis There is another autumn blooming squill which has already bloomed in my Maryland garden: Scilla scilloides (aka S. chinensis). To me, this does not look much like a squill, but it does look like what I would expect a deciduous Liriope to look like. I can't imagine anyone getting too excited about it, but it is an interesting addition to the comparatively scanty repertoire of late summer blooming bulbs. By the way, Angelo, what is the Italian word for the "little spring"? Is it something like La Primaverella? La Primaverina? L' Autunnello? Jim McKenney jimmckenney@starpower.net Montgomery County, Maryland, USA, USDA zone 7, where, glad as I am to see the late summer flowering bulbs, I can't wait until summer is over. From dejager@bulbargence.com Wed Sep 8 16:09:55 2004 Message-Id: From: Lauw de Jager Subject: Sternbergia lutea Date: Wed, 08 Sep 2004 22:05:33 +0100 Dear Angelo and all, This week I had an interesting experience with Sternbergia lutea. The majority was stored in a in special rooms at lower temperatures 15-22° and another part in surrounding temperatures (which are very high here at the moment: around 20-32°C) These stored at lower temperatures were showing flowerbuds last week (and were planted immediately) while those stored at ambient (higher) temperatures showed no flower buds at all. Conclusion: high (soil) temperatures delay flowering. As far as I can see hereflowerinf time has no relationship with humidity. Regards from the south of France Lauw de Jager PS Last monday we put in line 150 new photos in our website (as a result of my new Nikon 5400 coolpix) and expedition is in full swing at the moment. le 8/09/04 19:51, Angelo Porcelli à ang.por@aliceposta.it a écrit : > here in south of Italy it's still to early for Sterbergia lutea, as we > haven't got any rain so far. Usually it flowers late September to all > October. Lauw de Jager Bulb'Argence Mas d'Argence 30300 Fourques France South of France (zone 8 Olivier) tel 31(0)466 016 519 fax 0466 011 245 http://www.bulbargence.com From jimmckenney@starpower.net Wed Sep 8 21:38:02 2004 Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.20040908213812.009fccd0@pop.starpower.net> From: Jim McKenney Subject: Arisaema in the sun; was: RE: [pbs] Colchicum in the garden (and Arisaema) Date: Wed, 08 Sep 2004 21:38:12 -0400 Dear All: Ellen Hornig sent this post to me thinking it went to the PBS list members, too. I responded thinking I was responding to the full PBS list, and not until then did I realize that we were posting "privately". So with Ellen's consent, we're going public with this. Enjoy! Hi, Jim - I *did* mean to post it to PBS - guess I didn't check first, since I thought it always went to PBS if you replied to a list message there. Whoops. Unfortunately, I was writing via mail2web.com, and didn't save a copy. If you have the energy to re-post it for me, along with your own response (and a brief explanation of what happened), it might be of interest to other people. I don't think very many people think to try arisaemas in the sun - but that is indeed where a few species like to be. Here is Ellen's post, followed by Jim McKenney's response: Switching here to the arisaema question: Jim, you mention that A. consanguineum doesn't look happy for you. I wonder if many people are giving it too much shade? Here in the north, it is absolutely fine in full sun (though the blue ones look less blue there - a touch of shade becomes them), and will take sharp drainage as well. It's one tough plant. In shade, it stretches, flops, and languishes; in full sun, it's stocky, mostly upright, and vigorous. If in between, it's fine, but based on my observations it really does need at least a half-day's full sun to flourish. And I observe a lot of them....those little offsets get into the compost and end up all over the garden (which is how I first learned that they're happy in full baking (northern) sun). A. candidissimum, BTW, also likes at least a few hours of full sun - keeps it stocky and blooming well. And Jim: *of course* it's worth a drive all the way to here, in the middle of nowhere. Did you ever doubt it? :-) Ellen Seneca Hill Perennials Oswego NY USA Zone 5, with outstanding snow cover And Jim's response: Ellen, I have not tried these Arisaema in the sun yet, and your description of plants in the shade under your conditions sounds just like the ones here (which are in the shade). Several of the Asian Arisaema seem not to like it here: A. ciliatum, A. consanguineum, A. candidissimum, A. griffithii, A. elephas and others come to mind. In fact, I'm doubtful about all of the Arisaema on the monsoon schedule. Arisaema candidissimum grew here for years, and bloomed each year; but I eventually trashed it. Why? Because the plants came out of the ground inflorescence first, and the "stem" of the inflorescence continued to grow with the result that the spathe always ended up arching over into the mud. It didn't live up to its name here very well - here it was not so much Arisaema candidissimum as Arisaema pelodytes. Now I realize that I may have acted too soon. It never occurred to me to try them in the sun. In fact, I had always placed them in the coolest places in the garden. My A. consanguineum have been here for years but have never bloomed. And yes, they sway and arch and in general give the impression that they are trying to get away from my garden. I'll move them and see what happens. Jim McKenney jimmckenney@starpower.net Montgomery County, Maryland, USA, USDA zone 7, where our local Maryland monsoon is apparently not fooling those Asian Arisaema. From totototo@pacificcoast.net Mon Sep 6 21:22:49 2004 Message-Id: From: "Rodger Whitlock" Subject: Germinating Cardiocrinum giganteum Date: Mon, 6 Sep 2004 18:28:00 -700 On 6 Sep 04 at 2:12, Burger, Steve wrote: > Does anyone have any experience germinating seeds from these? I'm > getting some soon and I'm not sure what I need to do? Sow in pot, top dress with fine gravel or very coarse sand, water well, put in unheated cold frame for the winter. Germination next spring. -- Rodger Whitlock Victoria, British Columbia, Canada Maritime Zone 8, a cool Mediterranean climate on beautiful Vancouver Island From ang.por@aliceposta.it Thu Sep 9 14:07:16 2004 Message-Id: <002001c49697$43b54dc0$4f103152@computer> From: "Angelo Porcelli" Subject: Sternbergia lutea Date: Thu, 9 Sep 2004 20:03:08 +0200 Dear Lauw, your observation is right. Many years the autumns rains come very late here and summer extends for all October, but the Sternbergia come up just because the night temps are cooler. However, when good rainfalls happen in September the flowering is much showy and rich, as the plants have time to send out roots before to flower. Jim, you have a good sense of humor ! I didn't know you were so deep in the intricated world of Italian suffixes !! The word for 'little spring' doesn't exist, as it's just my creation. Anyway, in the case we would use 'Primaverina' :-) Angelo From ang.por@aliceposta.it Thu Sep 9 15:07:17 2004 Message-Id: <002401c4969f$a6cdfb20$4f103152@computer> From: "Angelo Porcelli" Subject: Sternbergia lutea again Date: Thu, 9 Sep 2004 21:03:10 +0200 > > Dear Sternbergia friends , > Here is a little report from South West Germany : > On this time flowering by me ( in my bulbframe ) : > Sternbergia lutea ( f. sicula ) coll. by me from Apulia / Italy , > I have send seeds from this plants to Dell before some days for the BX. > >From my other Sternb. lutea ( coll. by me from Sardinia ) only leaves, this > plants always comes later ( grows free in my garden). > My last Sternbergia ( clusii ) coll. from the Island of Samos, is always the > last - flowering in October or November ( (they grows free in my garden ). > Also flowering on this time : Narcissus serotoninus ( Apulia ) and Leucojum > ( roseum , autumanalis , valentinum ) > Best wishes > Johann > Zone 7a > D - 77972 Mahlberg > Germany ********* Dear Johann, Sternbergia sicula isn't considered a true species from some Italian botanists and in this case your expression S.lutea f.ma sicula would be more correct. But if so, this doesn't occur in Apulia, were you collected yor samples (do you remember the place, maybe?) but in Sicily and Greece. This is even more curious, because the S.lutea is well present in all Apulia but rare if nonexistent in the nearby regions of South of Italy (Basilicata, Calabria) which are the geographic connection between Apulia and Sicily. So, why the infamous S.sicula doesn't occur in Apulia is a mystery. Another observation now. Iris pseudopumila is a dwarf bearded iris endemic of Apulia and Sicily only, that is not present in the forementioned other regions. So this species shares roughly the same distribution of S.lutea in the South of Italy. Why it is not present in those regions is again obscure. Indeed, there's a reason, or better this is my guess. Apulia and Sicily share the same habitat of stony open grasslands, where both Iris and Sternbergia grow, while the other regions have more mountains and having more woodlands, these habitats aren't good for those plants. Also, Apulia is comparatively drier than the western regions of the same latitudes and thus more rich in geophyte flora. Back on Sternbergia, the sicula should differ in having pointed tepals and a lighter green to silver line on the middle of the leaf. But again this is not a consistent feature, because I have observe many times plants with pointed tepals and all have a more or less evident lighter median line. It is more reasonable to think that some population of Sicily and Greece grow in a more xeric habitat and have developed these features as fruit of the 'best fit' for that habitat and for these even and S.angustifolia is known, that is a form with even narrower leaves. This presumible form is often considered and hybrid between sicula and lutea and in the better of the cases it would be an interspecific hybrid, otherwise a cross between two forms or at worst just an extreme form of only one species. It is also said to be sterile, but I have some friends in Northern Italy which complain that their Sternbergia lutea don't set any seed. So, as this angustifolia form is often cultivated in northern countries such UK or France, I wouldn't be so surprise to see they don't set seed for the less suitable climate. Just to add further food for thoughts, in some small rocky islands offshore Sicily occurs Pancratium angustifolium, a little known species which differes from P.maritimum in having narrower leaves. It's easy to understand that this is a result of the rocky habitat instead of the sandy one of the normal maritimum. This topic would need better explanations but this is what I can do with my English, sorry. Angelo P.S. Is Narcissus serotoninus used to cure depression ? Apologise for the stupid joke :-) From 320083817243-0001@t-online.de Thu Sep 9 17:09:07 2004 Message-Id: <1C5WAC-1MlSiZ0@fwd09.sul.t-online.com> From: 320083817243-0001@t-online.de (Johannes-Ulrich Urban) Subject: Arisaema in the sun Date: Thu, 9 Sep 2004 23:09:04 +0200 Dear Alll, With me Arisaema candidissma gets sunburn on its beautiful large leaves when exposed to full sun. It is better placed in a way that it gets sun but is sheltered for a few hours form direct midday sun. Flowers with me never arched to the ground but ripening seed does. greetings from Germany, Uli From jimmckenney@starpower.net Thu Sep 9 17:26:13 2004 Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.20040909172846.009fcaf0@pop.starpower.net> From: Jim McKenney Subject: Sternbergia lutea Date: Thu, 09 Sep 2004 17:28:46 -0400 At 08:03 PM 9/9/2004 +0200, Angelo Porcelli wrote: >The word for 'little spring' doesn't exist, as it's just my creation. >Anyway, in the case we would use 'Primaverina' :-) Perhaps the rest of you may wonder why such a thing is of interest to me. The German garden writer/nurseryman Karl Foerster, writing not quite a century ago (Vom Bluetengarten der Zukunft, Verlag Der Gartenschoenheit, Berlin=Westend 1922 - I have the second edition) used the word Vorfruehling (literally, pre-spring) to describe that period in late winter when, although the cold and occasionally bitter weather is still with us, the garden nevertheless surges into bloom. Technically, spring does not begin until the third week of March; yet in many years the Eranthis, Galanthus, early Crocus, "spring" blooming Colchicum and so on are gone by then. It's one of the most interesting times of the year for the bulb enthusiast, yet we really don't have a word for this season in English. Angelo's "little spring", which he used to describe phenomena at the other end of the year, reminded me of this. And here's another thought: the return of the rains in summer dry climates brings on a burst of bloom in the autumn which well deserves a name - Angelo's "little spring" makes perfectly good sense to me. Most of us who live in winter cold northern climates think of the northern hemisphere spring as the beginning of the gardening year. Yet all of my gardening life, the annual return of the late summer/autumn blooming bulbs has signaled for me the beginning of the gardening year. And the academic year begins again in the autumn (although I suspect that that has something to do with the lack of air conditioning in the recent past, and before that the need for cheap child labor in the summer fields). The Jewish New Year will be celebrated next week: I've often wondered, is this a holdover from the days when the arrival of the autumnal rains signaled the time to plant and begin a new agricultural year? Here in Maryland, the "little spring" tends to be overshadowed by the events in the greater garden. Still, there is an excitement all out of proportion to the size, color or other qualities of the late summer/autumn-blooming bulbs which on a very deep level has something to do with new beginnings: it's as if, even in this northern climate and so many generations removed from our apparent ancestors, these plants trigger something vestigial and elemental in my senses. Jim McKenney jimmckenney@starpower.net Montgomery County, Maryland, USA, USDA zone 7, where it takes a lot of imagination to think "Primaverina" in our bagno Turco climate. From msittner@mcn.org Thu Sep 9 17:53:44 2004 Message-Id: <4.2.2.20040909145000.00d9edf0@mail.mcn.org> From: "Hans und Babs Joschko" (by way of Mary Sue Ittner ) Subject: Sternbergia Date: Thu, 09 Sep 2004 14:51:07 -0700 Dear Angelo , Thank you for your comments to my mail . I have used the name f. sicula , because the plants I have seen in Apulia and Calabria have narrow leaves than my plants from Sardinia . Also I have seen a lot of Sternb. lutea in Greece ( Peleponnes - on different places ) . I have collect my plants of St. f. sicula ( or angustifolia ) near Castel del Monte ( I think you where this is ) , in this area they grows it together with Colchicum cupanii and Nar. serotoninus , I have found this plants on a lot of places in Apulia , but also in Calabria ( Mt. Sellaro ) , I believe the leaves from there was really very narrow . My plants have a silver line on the middle and they have every year seeds . I'm on this time very busy - because we go tomorrow in holiday ( Corsica ) , when I'm back I will report maybe more of Sternbergia . Please , write to me privatly , I have made my options for the PBS mails out, I will go on this forum after my return . Sorry my english is bad - but my "Italy", is much more bad . Maybe you speak german ? Chiao Giovanni" Thank you Johann From jimmckenney@starpower.net Thu Sep 9 18:18:33 2004 Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.20040909182101.007936a0@pop.starpower.net> From: Jim McKenney Subject: Sternbergia lutea Date: Thu, 09 Sep 2004 18:21:01 -0400 At 05:28 PM 9/9/2004 -0400, Jim McKenney wrote: >Technically, spring does not begin >until the third week of March; But of course, it's the fourth week. Jim McKenney jimmckenney@starpower.net From JYOURCH@nc.rr.com Thu Sep 9 21:42:51 2004 Message-Id: <001a01c496d7$7ac914f0$0200a8c0@Office> From: "Jay Yourch" Subject: Arisaema in the sun; was: RE: [pbs] Colchicum in the garden (and Arisaema) Date: Thu, 9 Sep 2004 21:42:49 -0400 Arisaema in the sun; was: RE: [pbs] Colchicum in the garden (and Arisaema)Jim McKenney wrote: >Now I realize that I may have acted too soon. It never occurred to me >to try them in the sun. In fact, I had always placed them in the >coolest places in the garden. My A. consanguineum have been here for >years but have never bloomed. And yes, they sway and arch and in >general give the impression that they are trying to get away from my >garden. I'll move them and see what happens. Hi Jim, I grow my A. consanguineum on the northeast side of my house in moist soil. It blooms there every year, but like yours it also gets tall and falls over. My A. sikokianum is in a slightly brighter position, soil moisture about the same, and is much better. Both of these look like they are going to ripen seed every year, but what looks like a bunch of ripening seed withers instead. Because I have only one of each and I know that some Arisaema do the gender switching thing based on energy availability, perhaps these now mature plants are playing female roles, but are lacking a pollen source. I will take Ellen's suggestion and move my A. consanguineum into a slightly drier and sunnier position and see how it goes. Slightly is the key word here, many plants that Ellen can grow in full sun in her location would not be happy with the same treatment here. Regards, Jay Central North Carolina, USA (USDA Zone 7b) From msittner@mcn.org Thu Sep 9 22:54:45 2004 Message-Id: <4.2.2.20040909191818.01e139b0@mail.mcn.org> From: Mary Sue Ittner Subject: Primaverina Date: Thu, 09 Sep 2004 19:52:56 -0700 Hi All, I've been very preoccupied potting up bulbs these days. Like Paul Tyerman I have been starting a lot of seeds every year and my husband recently commented that he thought I was maxed out for room for all I grow. I know he is right. I've been glancing through the messages, but haven't felt I had time to respond to anything, but Jim McKenney has at last made me want to write. Reading Jim McKenney's remarks about bulbs appearing in the fall when his garden is at its peak reminds me of how different our growing conditions are on this pbs list. Like Angelo it has been a long time since we've had rain here, May for us. Everything is bone dry and dusty and the fire danger is high. Gardens are asleep just waiting for the wake up call with the first rains. Some of the bulbs are shooting out and even blooming, but they aren't going to last very long since we have been having a really hot spell and everything is so dry. I think of this time as the start of the garden season too and thought what Jim wrote was really poetic. I am really hooked on seeing signs of growth as the foliage emerges and spikes of flowers too. Our California natives mostly won't start appearing until October to March, but I grow South African bulbs and some of them are making an appearance now. There are some summer rainfall species that bloom at the end of their season in bloom at the moment: Nerines, Tritonia disticha, and some Gladiolus. Today my old standby, Calydorea amabilis, one of the longest blooming bulbs I grow had four flowers and there was a nice flower on Cypella coelestis. I think it would like a hotter summer and I've only had a handful of flowers, but it is such a stunning thing when it bloom. No doubt it has been liking our recent weather. The Zephyranthes candida, the same one Jay shared with so many, has been really nice the last couple of years. It likes getting watered every day in the pot with our lemon tree which is on drip irrigation. It also doesn't seem to mind at all getting high nitrogen fertilizer that the lemon tree requires. So much for common wisdom. The first of the season winter rainfall Gladiolus have been blooming too. One species is finished; G. carmineus has been blooming all over the garden; and many others are spiking. Moraea polystachya is emerging and will be in bloom soon and two species of winter growing Oxalis are already blooming and others sprouting. Some of the summer growing Oxalis Uli has shared with me are still blooming, especially the wonderful one from Ecuador. The Cyclamen are appearing, always a thrill. Since our gardens are not at their best at the moment, I find the fall and the end of summer blooming bulbs give me a lift. They don't have so much to compete with so they are very special. I wish that Scilla scilloides that I've been growing from seed for a number of years now would bloom so I could decide whether or not I like it. If it is as unattractive as Jim says, I'll be sorry I wasted the summer water on it. A number of years ago I won some Bravoa geminiflora at a California Horitcultural Society auction being grown by someone with hot summers. It bloomed very nicely the first year, but hasn't since. This year it looks the best it has since I got it, but still no blooms. I'm wondering if it isn't happy with my temperatures. Does anyone on our list grow it? No one has added any pictures to the wiki in a week, a new record. I have a number of pictures to add and a new member from Australia sent me some pictures too, so will try to find the time to get them processed and up. Mary Sue Mary Sue Ittner California's North Coast Wet mild winters with occasional frost Dry mild summers From ptyerman@ozemail.com.au Fri Sep 10 07:57:11 2004 Message-Id: <6.1.2.0.0.20040910210820.03dc1150@pop.ozemail.com.au> From: Paul Tyerman Subject: Flowering in Australia..... Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2004 21:59:18 +1000 > >Reading Jim McKenney's remarks about bulbs appearing in the fall when his >garden is at its peak reminds me of how different our growing conditions >are on this pbs list. Like Angelo it has been a Mary Sue et al, Thought I'd give a quick update on conditions and flowerings here in my garden in Canberra, Australia. I'll make you all jealous by commenting that it is most definitely spring here! Masses of daffodils coming into bloom everywhere, spring flowering Prunus, Magnolias etc filling the air with perfumes. Just gorgeous!! Bulb-wise things are getting down to it. As I mentioned the daffodils are coming into full swing now (our annual Horticultural Society Daffodil show is this weekend), the Galanthus are pretty much finished and are rapidly being replaced by Fritillarias (about 6 species in flower now) and Erythroniums. LOTS of buds on the Erythroniums this year so it will be rather pretty shortly in that area of my pots, as well as the various plantings in the garden. Now, if I could just get hold of seed of E. umbilicatum I would be much happier as that is one that I am coveting from the Bulbs of North America book. Trilliums are just about to start flowering now, with the first few rivale already in flower. Hellebores have been at their peak for a while now with some of the clumps starting to go over a bit. The doubles have been very nice and I have of course been crossing madly to see what the seedlings look like. Cyclamens are flowering of course, as they have been for so long now, and the Cardiocrinum bulb I have remaining is sending up it's leaf shoot now which is a relief. The little species Narcissus have been gorgeous this year, with a few of the more uncommon species I think liking the hotter drier summer we had and flowering better than they have for me before. Nice to have something good come of the drought!! Speaking of the drought...... as I mentioned in the cardiocrinum message we've actually had rain recently. In the last fortnight we've had about 4 inches of rain, which is more than the 7 months prior to that put together. DESPERATELY needed and the ground just drank it up wonderfully. Nice to see a green tinge coming back to the paddocks around the city. Also nice to actually have some decent water within the soil for the first time in absolutely ages. That is one of the things that has pushed the bulbs through so rapidly.... the fact that we've had significant rain. So other than what I've mentioned above there are also in bud or flower : Babianas, Ixias, Sparaxis, Lachenalias, Oxalis, Tulips, Ipheions, and Irises to name but a few. And then of course there are all the shrubs and perennials. It is a GREAT time of year!! I thought you might all like to know what is going on in my part of the garden. Still hoping for a lot more rain as we need some to actually get into the reservoirs for summer, but at least it is a start!! I hope this finds everyone safe and well. Good luck to the Florida residents who have had to cope with Charley and Frances and now I heard tonight that Hurricane Ivan is on the way and it is a category 5 at the moment!! Yikes!! Good luck everyone. Cheers. Paul Tyerman Canberra, Australia. USDA equivalent - Zone 8/9 Growing.... Galanthus, Erythroniums, Fritillarias, Trilliums, Cyclamen, Crocus, Cyrtanthus, Oxalis, Liliums, Hellebores, Aroids, Irises plus just about anything else that doesn't move!!!!! From ptyerman@ozemail.com.au Fri Sep 10 08:12:55 2004 Message-Id: <6.1.2.0.0.20040910220925.035351d0@pop.ozemail.com.au> From: Paul Tyerman Subject: Good Luck Florida Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2004 22:14:28 +1000 Howdy All, I mentioned in the last email briefly, but thought I'd like to mention clearly again, my wishes of Good Luck to the Floridans on the list. You guys and gals have certainly had it tough of late, what with hurricanes Charley, Frances and now Ivan on the way. They were saying here on the news tonight that Ivan is a category 5 hurricane, so even worse than the last two!! As far as I heard Charley was a category 4, but Frances was downgraded to "only" category 2 by the time if hit Florida wasn't it? Anyway, I am hoping that everyone is alright. Must be aweful just starting to get cleaned up from one when the next one hits. From what the news said this is not the normal way things work is it!! Far more hurricanes hitting this season than usual? I ask as you just never know whether our news is reporting it correctly or not . Here's hoping that Ivan isn't as bad as they are projecting. Take care everyone and please keep us posted on how you all fair. I know there are a few of us on this list from Florida, so hopefully you can let us know how you're going. Thanks for taking the time to read this, and definitely best wishes to those of you in the path of these storms. Cheers. Paul Tyerman Canberra, Australia From wpoulsen@pacbell.net Fri Sep 10 13:57:41 2004 Message-Id: From: Lee Poulsen Subject: Primaverina Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2004 10:57:37 -0700 On Sep 9, 2004, at 7:52 PM, Mary Sue Ittner wrote: > but Jim McKenney has at last made me want to write. I appreciate Jim's contributions to the list immensely and even on those rare occasions when I have little to no interest in the species topic he is writing on (usually because it's something that just doesn't grow in southern Calif.), I have made it a regular practice of mine to *always* read the tag line he puts after his signature (even if it grows into a paragraph of its own, as one recently did). > > Reading Jim McKenney's remarks about bulbs appearing in the fall when > his garden is at its peak reminds me of how different our growing > conditions are on this pbs list. Like Angelo it has been a long time > since we've had rain here, May for us. Everything is bone dry and > dusty and the fire danger is high. Gardens are asleep just waiting for > the wake up call with the first rains. Some of the bulbs are shooting > out and even blooming, but they aren't going to last very long since > we have been having a really hot spell and everything is so dry. This is even more true in the southern part of the state. So even though I have some summer growers that I keep watered and they bloom, it's the flowers that suddenly appear in late summer on their own, even before the rains return, that are such a delight. First, there have been the Amaryllises and Lycoris (and that Habranthus that popped up in the Lycoris pot), and now the first of the Nerine sarniensis hybrids are starting to send up scapes. I went out to check and sure enough the first of the Cyclamens are now blooming. And luckily I went and checked among the dormant pots to find the bulb of Calostemma purpurea that I got from Telos has four scapes with one fully open with far more flowers in it than it has had before. Nice. Several of the Amaryllises were the ones we got from Les Hannibal a few years ago that have finally bloomed for me and they are magnificent. Some really intense magentas and one of the whites has really thick, waxy, and broad petals on large flowers. Beautiful. > A number of years ago I won some Bravoa geminiflora at a California > Horitcultural Society auction being grown by someone with hot summers. > It bloomed very nicely the first year, but hasn't since. This year it > looks the best it has since I got it, but still no blooms. I'm > wondering if it isn't happy with my temperatures. Does anyone on our > list grow it? I have some of this, grown from seed, although I have it as Polianthes geminiflora. It didn't bloom this year, so maybe it will be mature enough to bloom next year (unless it blooms in the next month or two). It seems to grow leaves very well here. My P. x brundrantii did bloom, but had no scent (like P. tuberosa does). I have a couple of other hybrids I got from Yucca Do that haven't bloomed (yet?), and it has been quite hot lately (and humid as well the past few days). --Lee Poulsen Pasadena area, California, USDA Zone 9-10 From magrysbo@shu.edu Fri Sep 10 14:35:34 2004 Message-Id: From: Bonaventure W Magrys Subject: Arisaema in the sun; was: RE: [pbs] Colchicum in the garden (and Arisaema) Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2004 14:35:29 -0400 They may fall over anyway. I always thought mine were trying to nestle in their leaf fans among the groundcover to escape the intense sun and heat of their location. Then I saw that those growing up through low open shrubbery (mini azaleas), or among other tall perennials, stayed upright. Bonaventure Magrys Cliffwood Beach, NJ USA zone 7 ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 9 Sep 2004 21:42:49 -0400 From: "Jay Yourch" Subject: Arisaema in the sun; was: RE: [pbs] Colchicum in the garden (and Arisaema) To: Message-ID: <001a01c496d7$7ac914f0$0200a8c0@Office> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Arisaema in the sun; was: RE: [pbs] Colchicum in the garden (and Arisaema)Jim McKenney wrote: >Now I realize that I may have acted too soon. It never occurred to me >to try them in the sun. In fact, I had always placed them in the >coolest places in the garden. My A. consanguineum have been here for >years but have never bloomed. And yes, they sway and arch and in >general give the impression that they are trying to get away from my >garden. I'll move them and see what happens. Hi Jim, I grow my A. consanguineum on the northeast side of my house in moist soil. It blooms there every year, but like yours it also gets tall and falls over. My A. sikokianum is in a slightly brighter position, soil moisture about the same, and is much better. Both of these look like they are going to ripen seed every year, but what looks like a bunch of ripening seed withers instead. Because I have only one of each and I know that some Arisaema do the gender switching thing based on energy availability, perhaps these now mature plants are playing female roles, but are lacking a pollen source. I will take Ellen's suggestion and move my A. consanguineum into a slightly drier and sunnier position and see how it goes. Slightly is the key word here, many plants that Ellen can grow in full sun in her location would not be happy with the same treatment here. Regards, Jay Central North Carolina, USA (USDA Zone 7b) From dells@voicenet.com Fri Sep 10 16:32:15 2004 Message-Id: From: Dell Sherk Subject: Pacific BX 74 Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2004 16:34:36 -0400 Dear All, The items listed below have been donated by people from all over the world, to be shared. If you are interested in obtaining some of them, please email me PRIVATELY at . Include "BX 74" in the subject line. Specify the NUMBERS of the items which you would like; do not specify quantities. It is a good idea to include your snail mail address too, in case I don't already have it. Availability is based on a first come, first served system. When you receive your seeds/bulbs you will find, included with them, a statement of how much money (cash or check) you should send the PBS treasurer to defray our costs for packing and first-class postage. Some of you are members of the PBS discussion forum but not members of the Pacific Bulb Society. THIS BX OFFERING IS AVAILABLE ONLY TO MEMBERS OF THE PBS. Consider joining the PBS so that you can take advantage of future offers such as this. Go to our website: . Or contact me at dells@voicenet.com If you would like to donate seeds or bulbs/corms to the PBS, please send CLEAN, clearly labeled material to: Dell Sherk, PO Box 224, Holicong, PA, 18928, USA. Donors will receive credit on the BX for the cost of postage for their donations. PLEASE NOTE: I WILL REPLY TO YOU WITHIN 24 HRS OF MY RECEIPT OF YOUR ORDER.. IF YOU DO NOT HEAR FROM ME, TRY AGAIN !! From Jim Waddick: 1. Seed of Anthericum sp.? "My plant came from Panayoti Keladis of the Denver Botanic Garden. It has grown well here in a raised bed and now the plant, although small, puts on quite a show. Flower spikes are about 2 ft long and has 10 or more main branches which in turn branch again. Each smallest branch can have 20 or more small, white, star-shaped flowers. Although each flower is short lived, with ten flower stalks and upwards of 200 flowers per stalk it is an impressive sight. As for ID since the genus has some 50 or so very similar species, I can only say it is NOT either of the common species A. liliago or A ramosum. Only vaguely a geophyte, it has a similar annual cycle and disappears underground during winter. Foliage is long and narrow reminiscent of a very smaller Hemerocallis or semi-succulent grass clump." From Hans Joschko: SEED (some in VERY limited supply): 2. Galanthus plicatus ( w.c. by me - from Turkey , L.A.). 3. Galanthus regina- olgae ssp. vernalis ( plants coll. by italian botanists ) 4. Galanthus regina-olgae ssp. vernalis ( plants coll. by me from Sicily ) 5. Galanthus peshmenii ( plants coll. by me from Turkey ) 6. Galanthus elwesii A.Y./Turkey ( seeds coll. by me from Turkey ) 7. Galanthus elwesii G. / Turkey ( seeds coll. by me from Turkey ) 8. Galanthus elwesii Chios / Greece ( plants coll. from a plantfriend from Chios ) 9. Galanthus woronowii ( seeds coll. Turkey by me ) 10. Galanthus krasnowii ( seeds coll. Turkey by me ) 11. Sternberia sicula ( plants coll. by me Apulia / Italy ) 12. Habranthus texanus 13. Zephyranthes X `Fred Jones ` 14. Zephyranthes ? gracilis 15. Zephyranthes sp. small,pink flowers 16. Zephyranthes (Habranthus) robustus 17. Zephyranthes morris-clintonii 18. Zephyranthes (Habranthus) martinezii 19. Zephyranthes (Habranthus) brachyandrus Thank you, Jim and Hans !! Best wishes, Dell --Dell Sherk, Director, Pacific BX From ksa@del.net Fri Sep 10 16:53:13 2004 Message-Id: <00ff01c49778$2e2a4b90$6b01a8c0@kathrynandersen> From: "Kathy Andersen" Subject: Pacific BX 74 Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2004 16:53:04 -0400 Dear Dell, If you still have Galanthus seeds, I would be interested in the following: #3 or 4 #5 #6 or 7 #9 #10 and #11. Have just returned from South Africa and have developed a real interest in some of those bulbs. Best, Kathy ksa@del.net Kathy Andersen 7 Perth Drive Wilmington, DE 19803 ----- Original Me00ssage ----- From: "Dell Sherk" To: ; ; ; ; ; ; "Cathy Craig" ; ; Sent: Friday, September 10, 2004 4:34 PM Subject: [pbs] Pacific BX 74 > Dear All, > > The items listed below have been donated by people from all over the > world, to be shared. If you are interested in obtaining some of them, please > email me PRIVATELY at . Include "BX 74" in the subject > line. Specify the NUMBERS of the items which you would like; do not specify > quantities. It is a good idea to include your snail mail address too, in > case I don't already have it. Availability is based on a first come, first > served system. > When you receive your seeds/bulbs you will find, included with them, a > statement of how much money (cash or check) you should send the PBS > treasurer to defray our costs for packing and first-class postage. > Some of you are members of the PBS discussion forum but not members of > the Pacific Bulb Society. THIS BX OFFERING IS AVAILABLE ONLY TO MEMBERS OF > THE PBS. Consider joining the PBS so that you can take advantage of future > offers such as this. Go to our website: . Or > contact me at dells@voicenet.com > If you would like to donate seeds or bulbs/corms to the PBS, please send > CLEAN, clearly labeled material to: Dell Sherk, PO Box 224, Holicong, PA, > 18928, USA. Donors will receive credit on the BX for the cost of postage for > their donations. > > PLEASE NOTE: I WILL REPLY TO YOU WITHIN 24 HRS OF MY RECEIPT OF YOUR > ORDER.. > IF YOU DO NOT HEAR FROM ME, TRY AGAIN !! > > >From Jim Waddick: > > 1. Seed of Anthericum sp.? > "My plant came from Panayoti Keladis of the Denver Botanic > Garden. It has grown well here in a raised bed and now the plant, > although small, puts on quite a show. Flower spikes are about 2 ft > long and has 10 or more main branches which in turn branch again. > Each smallest branch can have 20 or more small, white, star-shaped > flowers. Although each flower is short lived, with ten flower stalks > and upwards of 200 flowers per stalk it is an impressive sight. As > for ID since the genus has some 50 or so very similar species, I can > only say it is NOT either of the common species A. liliago or A > ramosum. > Only vaguely a geophyte, it has a similar annual cycle and > disappears underground during winter. Foliage is long and narrow > reminiscent of a very smaller Hemerocallis or semi-succulent grass > clump." > > >From Hans Joschko: > > SEED (some in VERY limited supply): > > 2. Galanthus plicatus ( w.c. by me - from Turkey , L.A.). > 3. Galanthus regina- olgae ssp. vernalis ( plants coll. by italian > botanists ) > 4. Galanthus regina-olgae ssp. vernalis ( plants coll. by me from > Sicily ) > 5. Galanthus peshmenii ( plants coll. by me from Turkey ) > 6. Galanthus elwesii A.Y./Turkey ( seeds coll. by me from Turkey ) > 7. Galanthus elwesii G. / Turkey ( seeds coll. by me from Turkey ) > 8. Galanthus elwesii Chios / Greece > ( plants coll. from a plantfriend from Chios ) > 9. Galanthus woronowii ( seeds coll. Turkey by me ) > 10. Galanthus krasnowii ( seeds coll. Turkey by me ) > 11. Sternberia sicula ( plants coll. by me Apulia / Italy ) > 12. Habranthus texanus > 13. Zephyranthes X `Fred Jones ` > 14. Zephyranthes ? gracilis > 15. Zephyranthes sp. small,pink flowers > 16. Zephyranthes (Habranthus) robustus > 17. Zephyranthes morris-clintonii > 18. Zephyranthes (Habranthus) martinezii > 19. Zephyranthes (Habranthus) brachyandrus > > Thank you, Jim and Hans !! > > Best wishes, > Dell > > --Dell Sherk, Director, Pacific BX > > > _______________________________________________ > pbs mailing list > pbs@lists.ibiblio.org > http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php From ksa@del.net Fri Sep 10 16:55:40 2004 Message-Id: <011101c49778$85f608a0$6b01a8c0@kathrynandersen> From: "Kathy Andersen" Subject: Pacific BX 74 Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2004 16:55:32 -0400 Sorry, gang, Did not mean to hit the reply button to the list. Kathy ksa@del.net From rarebulbs@earthlink.net Fri Sep 10 17:54:03 2004 Message-Id: <003601c49780$acc53570$6ca779a5@DJ9SK221> From: "diana chapman" Subject: Bravoa (polianthes) geminiflora Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2004 14:53:57 -0700 Hi Mary Sue: I grow this and it blooms every summer in chilly Humboldt Co. They are grown in five gallon pots, so maybe the soil in the pots warms them up enough to bloom. Diana From dells@voicenet.com Sat Sep 11 07:56:04 2004 Message-Id: From: Dell Sherk Subject: Pacific BX 74 Date: Sat, 11 Sep 2004 07:59:19 -0400 Hi Kathy, You are the first requestor of this BX so you should get everything you ordered. Couldn't go to a better gardener! Best wishes, Dell From dells@voicenet.com Sat Sep 11 08:01:16 2004 Message-Id: From: Dell Sherk Subject: Sorry Date: Sat, 11 Sep 2004 08:04:27 -0400 Yikes! I hit the reply button too soon as well. Dell From dells@voicenet.com Sat Sep 11 08:17:39 2004 Message-Id: From: Dell Sherk Subject: Pacific BX 74 closed Date: Sat, 11 Sep 2004 08:20:54 -0400 Except for the mystery Anthericum, everything is long gone. I'll try to accommodate everyone, but I am not good with loaves and fishes. Might be able to get the packages out on Monday. Enjoy, Dell --Dell Sherk, Director, Pacific BX From msittner@mcn.org Sat Sep 11 10:39:38 2004 Message-Id: <4.2.2.20040910224218.016245e0@mail.mcn.org> From: Mary Sue Ittner Subject: Doryanthes Date: Sat, 11 Sep 2004 07:37:53 -0700 Hi, New list member Peter Thomson from Sydney, Australia, sent me pictures of Doryanthes excelsa to share with everyone and I just late last night found time to add them to the wiki and make a page which I will move into place alphabetically when I find more time. Does anyone know what the up to date family is for this genus? My Australian books say Agavaceae and it certainly has that appearance to me, but since appearance is no longer always what we go by... Other choices I've seen on the Internet that make less sense to me are Liliaceae and Amaryllidaceae. The common name for this plant is Gymea Lily, but one of my books also calls it Gigantic Lily which seems appropriate. We saw Doryanthes palmeri in Australia and it too was very impressive. I'd think you'd need to have a large garden for these plants. The Encyclopedia of Australian plants suitable for cultivation says they are highly suited as container plants, but the containers need to be large. I wonder how large that might be. Any Australian members growing either of the species in your gardens? http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki/index.php/Doryanthes Mary Sue From dkramb@badbear.com Sat Sep 11 10:51:40 2004 Message-Id: <6.1.0.6.0.20040911105110.01b82048@pop.bizland.com> From: Dennis Kramb Subject: Doryanthes Date: Sat, 11 Sep 2004 10:51:42 -0400 Beautiful!! It reminds me of a yucca... only much, much prettier. Dennis in Cincinnati At 10:37 AM 9/11/2004, you wrote: >Hi, > >New list member Peter Thomson from Sydney, Australia, sent me pictures of >Doryanthes excelsa to share with everyone and I just late last night found >time to add them to the wiki and make a page which I will move into place >alphabetically when I find more time. Does anyone know what the up to date >family is for this genus? My Australian books say Agavaceae and it >certainly has that appearance to me, but since appearance is no longer >always what we go by... Other choices I've seen on the Internet that make >less sense to me are Liliaceae and Amaryllidaceae. The common name for >this plant is Gymea Lily, but one of my books also calls it Gigantic Lily >which seems appropriate. We saw Doryanthes palmeri in Australia and it too >was very impressive. I'd think you'd need to have a large garden for these >plants. The Encyclopedia of Australian plants suitable for cultivation >says they are highly suited as container plants, but the containers need >to be large. I wonder how large that might be. Any Australian members >growing either of the species in your gardens? > >http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki/index.php/Doryanthes > >Mary Sue > >_______________________________________________ >pbs mailing list >pbs@lists.ibiblio.org >http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php From janemcgary@earthlink.net Sat Sep 11 12:39:39 2004 Message-Id: <5.2.1.1.0.20040911093425.01478ce8@mail.earthlink.net> From: Jane McGary Subject: Doryanthes Date: Sat, 11 Sep 2004 09:39:34 -0700 Regarding Doryanthes excelsa, the Giant Gymea "lily" from Australia, I grew this plant about 15 years ago from "leftover" NARGS exchange seed, simply because I had no idea what it was and wanted to find out. My two seedlings still reside in the conservatory, in pots so large I can barely drag them much less repot them. One has bloomed several times, but the other never has; the flowering one gets more heat and sun. The nonflowering one, however, has more attractive foliage, indeed rather like a dark green, glossy yucca. They suffer occasionally from scale, controlled with an oil spray. I thought the flowers, which are dark red, were rather small for the scale of the plant. If it were not for the danger of transporting the scale, I'd cart them off to California and plant them outdoors. They are very drought and heat resistant (they have to be, since I can't move them outdoors with the smaller house plants in summer). They'd be a good "architectural" plant in warm gardens. Jane McGary Northwestern Oregon, USA From ezeizabotgard@hotmail.com Sat Sep 11 12:47:44 2004 Message-Id: From: "Alberto Castillo" Subject: Doryanthes Date: Sat, 11 Sep 2004 16:47:42 +0000 >From: Mary Sue Ittner >Reply-To: Pacific Bulb Society >To: Pacific Bulb Society >Subject: [pbs] Doryanthes >Date: Sat, 11 Sep 2004 07:37:53 -0700 > >Hi, > >New list member Peter Thomson from Sydney, Australia, sent me pictures of >Doryanthes excelsa to share with everyone and I just late last night found >time to add them to the wiki and make a page which I will move into place >alphabetically when I find more time. Does anyone know what the up to date >family is for this genus? My Australian books say Agavaceae and it >certainly has that appearance to me, but since appearance is no longer >always what we go by... Other choices I've seen on the Internet that make >less sense to me are Liliaceae and Amaryllidaceae. The common name for this >plant is Gymea Lily, but one of my books also calls it Gigantic Lily which >seems appropriate. We saw Doryanthes palmeri in Australia and it too was >very impressive. I'd think you'd need to have a large garden for these >plants. The Encyclopedia of Australian plants suitable for cultivation >says they are highly suited as container plants, but the containers need to >be large. I wonder how large that might be. Any Australian members growing >either of the species in your gardens? > >http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki/index.php/Doryanthes > >Mary Sue > >Hi Mary Sue: Doryanthes excelsa is rather common here in public parks in Buenos Aires. I can not figure a container big enough to grow it, perhaps a 200 litre one? On the other hand, they are easy in the ground and require no extra watering. Incidentally they are no geophytes whatsoever. All the best Alberto _______________________________________________ >pbs mailing list >pbs@lists.ibiblio.org >http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php _________________________________________________________________ Charla con tus amigos en línea mediante MSN Messenger: http://messenger.latam.msn.com/ From ang.por@aliceposta.it Sat Sep 11 17:08:38 2004 Message-Id: <000b01c49842$ed467e20$a1143152@computer> From: "Angelo Porcelli" Subject: Doryanthes Date: Sat, 11 Sep 2004 23:04:27 +0200 I do grow Doryanthes palmeri, which is smaller than excelsa, but more attractive to me. This has a shorter stalk (you don't need a ladder to see the flowers !) which bent over the wight of the showy red flowers. It develops a rather large clump with the years, but it could be grown in container, while I doubt excelsa will work. Also, palmeri is said to be hardier than excelsa. Formerly placed in Agavaceae (now I don't know) it is similar for the growing aspects to Hesperaloe or better Beschorneria, as the head that flower will die after flowering, but the suckers will grow on their own roots. I don't know if they should be considered geophytes, as they have just a thickened base under the soil. Better definition would be herbaceous perennials. Angelo Porcelli P.S. Alberto, glad to hear from you again From scamp@earthlink.net Sat Sep 11 22:18:05 2004 Message-Id: <410-2200490122188917@earthlink.net> From: "Christine Council" Subject: Flowering in Australia..... Date: Sat, 11 Sep 2004 22:18:08 -0400 Hello Friends: I have noticed or perhaps I have started to pay attention to the weather because flowers and plants have just become my passion; any how, the weather is different than I remember in past years. Many of my plants have just began to really wake up from a sleepy summer and are growing. Some of my Oxalis are starting to sprout while others are becoming leggy and shriveling up. I have moved some of them into the house and they become stronger so I put them out for a while. I bought a ficus ( can't remember what type) and it has lost all of it's leaves as most trees do this time of the year. The trees outside of my house are not loosing foliage very fast at all. Did some one send a list of the Oxalis Winter growers and Summer growers? I don't know whether to leave them outside or to bring them in, the Oxalis that is. I know I am off the subject how ever, I have another problem, my holly plant is dying, I found it outside a few years ago and transplanted it into a pot. It grew taller(at first). I am plant or flower challenged, help. Thanks, Chris > [Original Message] > From: Paul Tyerman > To: Pacific Bulb Society > Date: 9/10/2004 7:57:06 AM > Subject: [pbs] Flowering in Australia..... > > > > > >Reading Jim McKenney's remarks about bulbs appearing in the fall when his > >garden is at its peak reminds me of how different our growing conditions > >are on this pbs list. Like Angelo it has been a > > Mary Sue et al, > > Thought I'd give a quick update on conditions and flowerings here in my > garden in Canberra, Australia. I'll make you all jealous by commenting that > it is most definitely spring here! Masses of daffodils coming into > bloom everywhere, spring flowering Prunus, Magnolias etc filling the air > with perfumes. Just gorgeous!! > > Bulb-wise things are getting down to it. As I mentioned the daffodils are > coming into full swing now (our annual Horticultural Society Daffodil show > is this weekend), the Galanthus are pretty much finished and are rapidly > being replaced by Fritillarias (about 6 species in flower now) and > Erythroniums. LOTS of buds on the Erythroniums this year so it will be > rather pretty shortly in that area of my pots, as well as the various > plantings in the garden. Now, if I could just get hold of seed of E. > umbilicatum I would be much happier as that is one that I am > coveting from the Bulbs of North America book. > > Trilliums are just about to start flowering now, with the first few rivale > already in flower. Hellebores have been at their peak for a while now with > some of the clumps starting to go over a bit. The doubles have been very > nice and I have of course been crossing madly to see what the seedlings > look like. Cyclamens are flowering of course, as they have been for so > long now, and the Cardiocrinum bulb I have remaining is sending up it's > leaf shoot now which is a relief. The little species Narcissus have been > gorgeous this year, with a few of the more uncommon species I think liking > the hotter drier summer we had and flowering better than they have for me > before. Nice to have something good come of the drought!! > > Speaking of the drought...... as I mentioned in the cardiocrinum message > we've actually had rain recently. In the last fortnight we've had about 4 > inches of rain, which is more than the 7 months prior to that put > together. DESPERATELY needed and the ground just drank it up > wonderfully. Nice to see a green tinge coming back to the paddocks around > the city. Also nice to actually have some decent water within the soil for > the first time in absolutely ages. That is one of the things that has > pushed the bulbs through so rapidly.... the fact that we've had significant > rain. > > So other than what I've mentioned above there are also in bud or flower : > Babianas, Ixias, Sparaxis, Lachenalias, Oxalis, Tulips, Ipheions, and > Irises to name but a few. And then of course there are all the shrubs and > perennials. It is a GREAT time of year!! > > I thought you might all like to know what is going on in my part of the > garden. Still hoping for a lot more rain as we need some to actually get > into the reservoirs for summer, but at least it is a start!! > > I hope this finds everyone safe and well. Good luck to the Florida > residents who have had to cope with Charley and Frances and now I heard > tonight that Hurricane Ivan is on the way and it is a category 5 at the > moment!! Yikes!! Good luck everyone. > > > Cheers. > > Paul Tyerman > Canberra, Australia. USDA equivalent - Zone 8/9 > > Growing.... Galanthus, Erythroniums, Fritillarias, Trilliums, Cyclamen, > Crocus, Cyrtanthus, Oxalis, Liliums, Hellebores, Aroids, Irises plus just > about anything else that doesn't move!!!!! > > _______________________________________________ > pbs mailing list > pbs@lists.ibiblio.org > http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php From roberth6@mac.com Sat Sep 11 23:36:43 2004 Message-Id: From: Robert Hamilton Subject: Doryanthes Date: Sun, 12 Sep 2004 13:36:50 +1000 Hi all, I purchased 3 seedlings on Australian eBay in autumn. I overwintered them in my shade house and have planted two in the garden today intending to grow the third as a container plant. Seeds and seedlings are regularly available from the above source. The supplier of my plants says that the plants will stand frost but the inflorescence is sensative to frost. Cheers, Rob in Tasmania Zone 9 equivalent From mrgoldbear@yahoo.com Sun Sep 12 07:47:26 2004 Message-Id: <20040912114724.40667.qmail@web20522.mail.yahoo.com> From: David Sneddon Subject: Doryanthes Date: Sun, 12 Sep 2004 04:47:24 -0700 (PDT) Howdy, What a pleasant surprise those gigantic lilies we call Gymea Lilys are abundant in this area, 80Kms north of Sydney. In fact even the first photo looked so much like an old work location at cumberland forest in Sydney's north that it bowled me over! These plants are also used as street plantings here abouts or on the shoulders of roads to provide screenings. The leaves are very like flax leaves but larger, and erect. The flower is nearly always red but I'm told that occasionally a plant will flower white and was provided some from a local who said their plant was white flowering (will the seedlings grow on to be white ...I don't know). If they were to be put into tubs it would need to be very deep and wide. Leaves are much taller than myself (6ft). The flower trade here also uses juvanile leaves in flower arrangements as they are quite ornate. Regards, David. --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail is new and improved - Check it out! From ConroeJoe@aol.com Sun Sep 12 12:31:31 2004 Message-Id: <1dc.2b999001.2e75d3e1@aol.com> From: ConroeJoe@aol.com Subject: Oxblood Lily, and L. squamigera Date: Sun, 12 Sep 2004 12:31:29 EDT Hi, About a month ago some reported their Rhodophiala bifida in bloom. I wondered if mine were going to skip the year. Last week one scape popped up, and this week a half dozen more clumps are blooming. I wonder what the clues are for this plant, when it knows to bloom? Maybe there is hope yet for my Lycoris squamigera. They were in full bloom a month ago at a friend's home in central Maryland. Mine have yet to bloom. Last year there was only a single scape, I wonder if they are particular about warm winters? Conroe Joe From hyline@tampabay.rr.com Sun Sep 12 12:47:36 2004 Message-Id: <000b01c498e8$838b5e00$6500a8c0@tampabay.rr.com> From: "Kevin D. Preuss" Subject: Oxblood Lily, and L. squamigera Date: Sun, 12 Sep 2004 12:49:41 -0400 the oxblood lilies, as most Rhodophialas seem to bloom in response to phemnololical condiotions (obvisouly they are fall bloomers...e.g. daylength, post rainseason blooming). Now the pinks are starting to bloom. One of Dash's maroon x pink hybrids issending up a scape. It is that time. I wish my yuellow ones did not rot away last summer. It is so hard for me to keep things dry all summer (rains are driven undermy shelter, that was twisted like a pretzel in Frances's winds). Fausto, do you grow many speceis of these? How about you alberto Castillo? We need reports from Rhodophiala growwers. Anxiuosly awaiting Ivan to pass. Vic in the panhandle of florida, watch out! Kevin D. Preuss www.Amaryllis-Plus.com From DaveKarn@aol.com Sun Sep 12 13:06:42 2004 Message-Id: <12e.4b801594.2e75dc18@aol.com> From: DaveKarn@aol.com Subject: REPLY: [pbs] Oxblood Lily, and L. squamigera Date: Sun, 12 Sep 2004 13:06:32 EDT In a message dated 9/12/04 9:31:55 AM Pacific Daylight Time, ConroeJoe@aol.com writes: > I wonder if they are particular about warm winters? > Joe ~ Possibly. When I grew this in Minnesota (USDA Z 4), it routinely bloomed in late August whether grown in clay loam or in the pure sand and full sun of the last property. Of course, there the dead weed stems acted as a snow catch and one could count on the wind filtering in some 18"+ of wind-packed snow each Winter. In the latter location (right out in the field with everything else), the only summer water they got were from the occasional thunderstom, yet the row was always a forest of blooming stems. One I did have trouble with under those conditions was L. sprengeri, which seldom bloomed. I now understand that these species/species forms really do prefer more shade and moisture than what it was getting. Dave Karnstedt (now of) Silverton, Oregon, USA Cool mediterranean climate (hot and dry in Summer and cool and wet in Winter), USDA Z 6-7 From davidxvictor-07jkgAgxC3c0aU5HGZYAhm5juOJwNFO@mailblocks.com Sun Sep 12 15:20:17 2004 Message-Id: From: David Victor Subject: Dr Alicia Lourteig Date: Sun, 12 Sep 2004 19:21:04 +0100 Dear all, I was very sorry to read in the latest newsletter of the Geraniaceae Group of the death of this lady at Saint-Etienne du Mont, France on 30 July 2003 at the age of 89. Dr Lourteig worked in the genus Oxalis at the Museum National d'Histoire Naturelle, Paris for many years, publishing many papers on the subject including, to my knowledge, a revision of Section Corniculatae DC for the Americas, as well as a number of new species. It was rumoured that she had been working on a wider revision of the genus some years ago, but presumably that is now lost. (Perhaps one of the list members that belongs to the Oxalis list could pass this news on as I seem to have dropped out of membership and am not clear how to return! Many thanks) Best regards, David Victor From samclan@redshift.com Mon Sep 13 00:28:30 2004 Message-Id: <414522D5.4090905@redshift.com> From: Shirley Meneice Subject: Oxblood Lily, and L. squamigera Date: Sun, 12 Sep 2004 21:32:21 -0700 All my hybrid bulbs from Betty Doutt began blooming a couple of weeks ago. Today I noticed the first scape of Lycoris squamigera popping up. They seem to do their thing when they get ready -- not necessarily when you want them to bloom or expect them. Shirley Meneice ConroeJoe@aol.com wrote: >Hi, > >About a month ago some reported their Rhodophiala bifida in bloom. I >wondered if mine were going to skip the year. > >Last week one scape popped up, and this week a half dozen more clumps are >blooming. I wonder what the clues are for this plant, when it knows to bloom? > >Maybe there is hope yet for my Lycoris squamigera. They were in full bloom a >month ago at a friend's home in central Maryland. Mine have yet to bloom. >Last year there was only a single scape, I wonder if they are particular about >warm winters? > > >Conroe Joe >_______________________________________________ >pbs mailing list >pbs@lists.ibiblio.org >http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php > > > > From Roth@ukzn.ac.za Mon Sep 13 08:54:37 2004 Message-Id: From: "Rogan Roth" Subject: Muscari macrocarpum and Drimiopsis burkei Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2004 14:54:02 +0200 Dear Bulb-friends, Some years ago I imported two bulbs of M. macrocarpum, and five years later I still only have two bulbs of M. macrocarpum. If they don't set seed or divide vegetatively, how do I propagate them? Spring is well on its way here in the southern hemisphere (but for a brief flurry of snow last week, which is very unusual for this part of the world!) and many bulbs are sprouting or flowering, even a small pot of Drimiopsis burkei is about to put on its annual show (in miniature!). This microscopic plant puts up a few tiny leaves followed by a short inflorescence no more than three or four centimeters high of pinkish flowers reminiscent of Ledebouria. I'll attempt to get some photos of this little charmer when in full bloom to post to the wiki. I am very envious when I hear Paul Tyerman going on and on about all the wonderful bulbs that seem to grow so well in his part of the world :-) I guess we (Pietermaritzburg, KwaZulu-Natal) are just a little too warm for most temperate bulbs to flourish - even daffodils fail to thrive and soon disappear when planted in the garden. I would give a lot just to be able to grow Fritillaria - any Fritillaria! Goodbye for now from a mercifully tornado and cyclone-free South Africa, Rogan. -------------------------------------------------------------------- Please find our disclaimer at http://www.ukzn.ac.za/disclaimer -------------------------------------------------------------------- <<<>>> From janemcgary@earthlink.net Mon Sep 13 09:58:52 2004 Message-Id: <5.2.1.1.0.20040913065327.01479ea0@mail.earthlink.net> From: Jane McGary Subject: Muscari macrocarpum and Drimiopsis burkei Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2004 06:58:39 -0700 Rogan in South Africa wrote, Some years ago I imported two bulbs of M. macrocarpum, and five years >later I still only have two bulbs of M. macrocarpum. If they don't set >seed or divide vegetatively, how do I propagate them? This species rarely sets seed in cultivation, in my experience, possibly because most people who grow it have only one clone, as I do. My bulbs are in the open garden (where they are not supposed to be hardy in this climate, but they're protected from morning sun in winter, which seems to be the key) and multiply slowly by offsets. I think they will multiply faster if crowded and given low fertility, since I got them from someone who had them in a big pot that had been neglected for several years, and it was simply stuffed with bulbs. This golden yellow Muscari has a wonderful fragrance. Rogan added, :-) I guess we (Pietermaritzburg, KwaZulu-Natal) are just a little too >warm for most temperate bulbs to flourish - even daffodils fail to >thrive and soon disappear when planted in the garden. I would give a lot >just to be able to grow Fritillaria - any Fritillaria! The coastal North American Fritillaria species, such as F. liliacea, should flourish there. I recently donated plenty of seed of that species to the NARGS exchange, and it's also available through the AGS. I'd also try F. biflora and F. purdyi, and perhaps F. agrestis if you can stand a bad-smelling flower (if you grow Ferraria, it's not quite so bad as that!). Jane McGary Northwestern Oregon, USA From jimmckenney@starpower.net Mon Sep 13 10:31:52 2004 Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.20040913103223.009ff3c0@pop.starpower.net> From: Jim McKenney Subject: Oxblood Lily, and L. squamigera Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2004 10:32:23 -0400 I noticed Rhodophiala bifida in bloom in a local garden last weekend here in the Washington, D. C. area. Zephyranthes drummondii was also blooming, as were Crinum x powellii and x Amarcrinum memoria-corsii. And here in my own garden, a Nerine sarniensis cultivar is in bloom. Jim McKenney jimmckenney@starpower.net Montgomery County, Maryland, USA, zone 7 where the nights are, finally, cooler, the dews heavier and the attitude improving. From jshields104@insightbb.com Mon Sep 13 10:52:53 2004 Message-Id: <5.1.0.14.2.20040913094215.01d20350@pop.indy.net> From: "J.E. Shields" Subject: Oxblood Lily, and L. squamigera Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2004 09:51:48 -0500 Hi all, I envy Jim McK. if he has Nerine in his garden. I have not found a Nerine that will survive and flower outdoors in the ground here. We have Nerine filifolia just starting to bloom now. N. krigei flowered several weeks ago, followed by NN. gracilis, next [filifolia X krigei], and then filamentosa. I'm very fond of these, but they only flower here in pots. I tried NN. angulata, filifolia, krigei, and [filifolia X krigei] planted in my raised bed rock garden last summer. None made it through the winter. I also tried N. bowdenii (NOT!) 'Pink Triumph' in the rock garden, and it also perished. Only N. bowdenii "Koen's Hardy" have ever survived outdoors in the ground through winter, and they never bloom out there. One batch of Rhodophiala bifida survives in the ground and is now in bloom. Two other batches in the ground in different locations died. As Panayoti Kelaidas says, try plants in lots of different locations before deciding that they are not hardy. Where the one batch of Rhodophiala bifida survive, the Gladiolus oppositiflorus salmoneus died. These glads, however, flourish out in the open field in the same bed where three Crinum varieties also do well. Well, actually, out of about 20 bulbs of Crinum [bulbispermum X macowanii] lined out, only three survived the winter. On the other hand, 19 out of 19 C. [bulbispermum X lugardiae] lined out two or three years ago survived and most bloomed this year. Regards, Jim Shields in central Indiana At 10:32 AM 9/13/2004 -0400, you wrote: >I noticed Rhodophiala bifida in bloom in a local garden last weekend here >in the Washington, D. C. area. Zephyranthes drummondii was also blooming, >as were Crinum x powellii and x Amarcrinum memoria-corsii. > >And here in my own garden, a Nerine sarniensis cultivar is in bloom. > >Jim McKenney >jimmckenney@starpower.net >Montgomery County, Maryland, USA, zone 7 where the nights are, finally, >cooler, the dews heavier and the attitude improving. >_______________________________________________ >pbs mailing list >pbs@lists.ibiblio.org >http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php ************************************************* Jim Shields USDA Zone 5 Shields Gardens, Ltd. P.O. Box 92 WWW: http://www.shieldsgardens.com/ Westfield, Indiana 46074, USA Tel. ++1-317-867-3344 or toll-free 1-866-449-3344 in USA From jimmckenney@starpower.net Mon Sep 13 11:30:43 2004 Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.20040913113116.009fe7c0@pop.starpower.net> From: Jim McKenney Subject: Oxblood Lily, and L. squamigera Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2004 11:31:16 -0400 At 09:51 AM 9/13/2004 -0500, Jim Shields wrote: >I envy Jim McK. if he has Nerine in his garden. I have not found a Nerine >that will survive and flower outdoors in the ground here. Sorry to have given the wrong impression: the Nerine is a pot plant. Jim McKenney jimmckenney@starpower.net Montgomery County, Maryland, USA, USDA zone 7, not Nerine country with the possible exception of N. bowdenii. From jimmckenney@starpower.net Mon Sep 13 11:38:38 2004 Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.20040913113911.00a04950@pop.starpower.net> From: Jim McKenney Subject: Nerine again Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2004 11:39:11 -0400 A new plant received as Nerine sarniensis began to bloom last week. The catalog photo had me expecting a bright scarlet flower - I had my hopes up that they would be the wonderful old cultivar 'Corusca'. Instead, the flowers are a color which I can't quite put a name on: it reminds me most of the color of some blackberry ice creams, near where the fruit just starts to mix with the cream. And as I was looking at the flower I began to think I was tasting blackberry icecream. Maybe I'm a bit synesthetic? The only other Nerine here now is N. bowdenii, and that does not yet show signs of bloom. Is the growth cycle of the cultivated Nerine bowdenii, i.e. winter dormant and summer active, the natural growth cycle of the wild plants, or were the cultivated plants selected for this characteristic? Nerine bowdenii is the only Nerine which will survive the winter outside here (sometimes). Because it has no leaves in the winter, it can be mulched heavily, and with a heavy mulch it's just about a sure thing. Are there hybrids which have the growth cycle of Nerine bowdenii and the colors of Nerine sarniensis? Jim McKenney jimmckenney@starpower.net Montgomery County, Maryland, USA, USDA zone 7, where instead of blackberry ice cream, I'm about to whip up a batch of zabaione to serve with strawberries. From jshields104@insightbb.com Mon Sep 13 12:18:11 2004 Message-Id: <5.1.0.14.2.20040913111521.01e88d18@pop.indy.net> From: "J.E. Shields" Subject: Nerine again Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2004 11:18:10 -0500 Hi All, Nerine bowdenii is native to the summer rainfall areas of eastern South Africa, so it's natural cycle is to grow in summer. In practice, my bulbs of bowdenii in pots make it a short winter. I've not seen any summer growing Nerine hybrids that looked anything like the sarniensis hybrids. Regards, Jim Shields ************************************************* Jim Shields USDA Zone 5 Shields Gardens, Ltd. P.O. Box 92 WWW: http://www.shieldsgardens.com/ Westfield, Indiana 46074, USA Tel. ++1-317-867-3344 or toll-free 1-866-449-3344 in USA From msittner@mcn.org Mon Sep 13 12:32:20 2004 Message-Id: <4.2.2.20040913075748.019c3d30@mail.mcn.org> From: Mary Sue Ittner Subject: New pictures on the wiki-Kniphofia and Tritonia Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2004 09:30:39 -0700 Dear All, It's funny that Rogan would write about the plants he can't grow when I just added a couple of pictures of plants to the wiki that have species close to where he lives. Kniphofia is really wide spread in Africa and many people grow it in coastal California and it has naturalized in a number of spots. I've never been very successful in my attempts to grow it and suspect the ones I've tried just needed more summer water than I gave them. I've never tried any of the winter rainfall species. The pictures I added to the wiki are hybrids, one growing in the Mendocino Coast Botanical Gardens and another in one of my favorite private local gardens where it really is a dramatic beautiful accent plant. I came across a couple of slides of a winter rainfall species (when I was looking for Pelargonium pictures) we saw the first day we were in South Africa in August 2001 in a very wet year, K. sarmentosa. I added pictures of it as well. There is room for lots more Kniphofia pictures to be added to this wiki page if we have Kniphofia growers out there. http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki/index.php/Kniphofia Blooming right now in my garden is Tritonia disticha, which is from the Eastern Cape into KwaZulu-Natal I think. It is taller with smaller flowers than the winter rainfall species I grow. I think it would probably be happier in a garden with year round rainfall. It's dormant in winter and I have no idea how hardy it might be. The picture I added we took earlier this summer, also in the Mendocino Gardens. They water the perennial garden regularly this time of the year and the Tritonia was a nice contrast to the Agapanthus behind it. Most of the pictures with the digital camera did not focus on the flowers, but we got one that worked. http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki/index.php/Tritonia Rogan, do you grow this Tritonia? I know there are two subspecies, but I don't know how they are different. Mary Sue From jimmckenney@starpower.net Mon Sep 13 12:32:44 2004 Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.20040913123315.00a0c9c0@pop.starpower.net> From: Jim McKenney Subject: Begonia sutherlandii and B. grandis on the wiki Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2004 12:33:15 -0400 I've posted two new Begonia photos on the wiki. One is of Begonia grandis with some companion plants. The other is of Begonia sutherlandii. Take a look at: http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki/index.php/Begonia These photos were taken by Wayne Crist and are of plants in his garden. Begonia sutherlandii is worth trying as a garden plant in protected areas here in the Washington, D.C. area. Try it near a wall or in a similarly protected spot. In the open garden it's not a sure thing - and survivors emerge into growth very late. In suitable spots it will clump up quickly because of the numerous little tubers which form in the leaf axils. I have yet to find the right spot for Begonia sutherlandii in my garden, but I hear of a garden in nearby Prince George's County, Maryland, where it takes care of itself. Begonia grandis var. evansiana is in full bloom now in local gardens. Incidentally, an IPNI search brings up Begonia evansiana for this plant, and cites B. grandis as a synonym of the Brazilian Begonia ficifolia. Is there a Begonia taxonomist out there who can shed some light on this? Enjoy! Jim McKenney jimmckenney@starpower.net Montgomery County, Maryland, USA, USDA zone 7, where I grew up calling the hardy begonia Begonia evansiana and would not mind going back to that usage. From jimmckenney@starpower.net Mon Sep 13 14:18:17 2004 Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.20040913141845.009d8100@pop.starpower.net> From: Jim McKenney Subject: Kniphofia thomsonii snowdenii Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2004 14:18:45 -0400 I've added a photo of Kniphofia thomsonii snowdenii to the wiki. Take a look at: http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki/index.php/Kniphofia This is not the best photo, but it will serve to call attention to this distinctive Kniphofia. Enjoy! Jim McKenney jimmckenney@starpower.net Montgomery County, Maryland, USA, USDA zone 7 where Herr Kniphof's deciduous aloes are well regarded. From arnold@nj.rr.com Mon Sep 13 16:50:38 2004 Message-Id: <41460816.8090009@nj.rr.com> From: Arnold Trachtenberg Subject: Muscari macrocarpum and Drimiopsis burkei Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2004 16:50:30 -0400 Rogan; You are in good company we all would love to able to grow all those wonderful South African bulbs outdoors as well. Dare I say the "Forbidden Fruit" Arnold From jimmckenney@starpower.net Mon Sep 13 19:51:58 2004 Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.20040913181826.0079bbb0@pop.starpower.net> From: Jim McKenney Subject: Kniphofia thomsonii snowdenii Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2004 18:18:26 -0400 Shortly after I uploaded an image to the wiki with the name Kniphofia thomsonii snowdenii, David Fenwick contacted me privately with some comments on this image. Once I identified my source for the plant, he was reasonably sure that it represents not Kniphofia thomsonii snowdenii but rather a triploid form of Kniphofia thomsonii. David was also kind enough to provide three photos of Kniphofia which, with his consent, I have uploaded to the wiki. One shows the triploid form of Kniphofia thomsonii as he grows it; the other two show Kniphofia thomsonii snowdenii from his collection. One of these two photos clearly shows the pubescence on the exterior of the flower of Kniphofia thomsonii snowdenii. The text of the wiki has been modified with these things in mind. Take a look at: http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki/index.php/Kniphofia Thanks, David! Jim McKenney jimmckenney@starpower.net Montgomery County, Maryland, USA, USDA zone 7, where it's time to change some labels! From feygirl@grandecom.net Tue Sep 14 13:33:26 2004 Message-Id: <200409141733.i8EHXSBk028478@mx2.lsn.net> From: "Stacy Doolittle Doherty" Subject: live flowers are speakers in new Japanese product Date: Tue, 14 Sep 2004 12:33:25 -0500 THESE PLANTS GIVE OFF GOOD VIBRATIONS A Japanese telecommunications equipment maker has come up with a tricky way to hide audio speakers. The Ka-on, which means "flower sound" in Japanese, consists of a donut-shaped magnet and coil at the base of a vase that can be hooked up to a CD player, stereo or television set. When flowers are placed in the vase, the sound vibrations move up through the stems into the petals and leaves, filling the entire room with gentle music. Masumi Gotoh, president of Let's Corp, which makes the Ka-On, says the gadget is ideal for piping music via flower arrangements at weddings, reception desks and restaurants. The vases and amplifiers come in several sizes, priced from $46 to $460, and Gotoh says the device has an added bonus -- the vibrations discourage insects and make the flowers last longer. "The plant is happy listening to the music. Gerberas and sunflowers work especially well as speakers." (AP 14 Sep 2004) Texas Gardener Stacy Doolittle Doherty, lurker on the list. From jwaddick@kc.rr.com Wed Sep 15 16:43:48 2004 Message-Id: From: James Waddick Subject: Hippeastrum: the gardener's amaryllis Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2004 15:31:33 -0500 Dear all; I just got my copy of this delightful book by Veronica Read, the National Collection holder. I don't recall any mention on this list. It is a joint Timber Press/RHS publication from earlier this year. I admit not having read much more than the Table of Contents and a few pages. The photo section was a revelation to me. An enormous number of interesting selections and hybrids in the horticultural world. I fear severe Hippeastrum lust developing. Perhaps the need for a group order of mini-hybrids from Miyake Nursery in Japan (to paraphrase Homer Simpson " Drool"). I hope someone knowledgeable about this group and this book will respond with intelligent comments. I am blinded by the glory. Maybe a group discount might be arranged too. More later as my head stops spinning. Best Jim W. -- Dr. James W. Waddick Near KCI Airport Kansas City Missouri 64152-2711 USA Ph. 816-746-1949 Zone 5 Record low -23F Summer 100F + From ksa@del.net Wed Sep 15 16:51:44 2004 Message-Id: <010801c49b66$16c33d80$6b01a8c0@kathrynandersen> From: "Kathy Andersen" Subject: Pacific BX 74 Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2004 16:53:39 -0400 Dear Dell, The seeds arrived today - many, many thanks. Did Paul Tyerman receive any G. krasnowii (#10)? If not, I will send him half of what you sent me. They are so small, do you think that I can just enclose them in a greeting card? Best, Kathy ksa@del.net ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dell Sherk" To: "Pacific Bulb Society" Sent: Saturday, September 11, 2004 7:59 AM Subject: Re: [pbs] Pacific BX 74 > Hi Kathy, > > You are the first requestor of this BX so you should get everything you > ordered. Couldn't go to a better gardener! > > Best wishes, > Dell > > _______________________________________________ > pbs mailing list > pbs@lists.ibiblio.org > http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php > From ksa@del.net Wed Sep 15 16:58:54 2004 Message-Id: <012901c49b67$17b485e0$6b01a8c0@kathrynandersen> From: "Kathy Andersen" Subject: Oops, again Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2004 17:00:50 -0400 Sorry, friends, I did it again. I seem to have hit the same replay button as last time. Kathy ksa@del.net From wpoulsen@pacbell.net Thu Sep 16 14:15:46 2004 Message-Id: <6C4DEE16-080C-11D9-9EC9-003065EFBD84@pacbell.net> From: Lee Poulsen Subject: New wiki photos; Worsleya bloom Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2004 11:15:43 -0700 I uploaded several photos to the wiki, including a big surprise for me--the first blooming of my Worsleya procera (syn. W. rayneri), aka the Blue Amaryllis. The bulb isn't as big as the ones I've seen blooming in pictures on the Internet or among the Worsleya email list, but it still managed to make two flowers. Interestingly, the lilac-blue color on mine was very washed out the first day they opened, but had intensified by the next day. Does anyone know of any others blooming in recent years in the northern hemisphere? (Other than the source of mine in eastern Mexico.) I keep it in an unheated plastic pseudo-greenhouse that keeps things very humid here in dry southern California, and it seems to like it there. http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki/index.php/Worsleya ---- One late summer/early autumn surprise bloomer I failed to mention in a previous email is of course Rhodophiala bifida, the triploid (?) clone from Texas known as Oxblood Lily. This year, mine exploded into bloom. It's a clone from some originally growing wild in Texas that Old House Gardens offers. http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki/index.php/Rhodophiala ---- I also have what looks like a pink flowered version of R. bifida, but the it came labelled as R. pratense. Is this a different species, and if so, in what ways? It bloomed at the same time and in the same fashion (from bare soil) as the regular R. bifida. (Also at http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki/index.php/Rhodophiala) ---- A really gorgeous Lycoris hybrid bloomed for the first time. It was given the English name of 'Flaming Dragon', but it has the Japanese name 'Satsumahiryu'. [My guess without knowing what the characters are is that this comes from the Japanese words Satsuma-fire-dragon, where Satsuma is an old province of Japan that now makes up half of the Kagoshima prefecture which is the southernmost prefecture of Kyushu which is the southernmost of the 4 main islands of Japan. This is the same Satsuma as the seedless satsuma mandarin oranges. Maybe this indicates that it likes warmer subtropical climates?] The photos don't show well the contrasting white throats. http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki/index.php/Lycoris ---- I got a bulb of Lilium sulphureum that bloomed, although it wasn't as yellow as I expected it would be. It was a very large flower compared to most of the Lilies that bloom for me. I will see if it comes back for me. http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki/index.php/Lilium ---- Two different Mexican Hymenocallis bloomed for me. My H. sonorensis had a number of scapes this year and my H. eucharidifolia bloomed for the first time and both the flowers and the plant are just beautiful. http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki/index.php/Hymenocallis ---- As mentioned in a previous email, Calostemma purpureum always surprises me when it comes into bloom. It seems to do very well in this climate. http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki/index.php/Calostemma ---- There are some really gorgeous Cypella (coelestis, hauthalii ssp. opalina) and now for me, C. peruviana. Even the buds right before they bloom are wonderful. (Which I'll try to get a more in-focus pic of.) http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki/index.php/Cypella ---- For those of you who have warm summers, Curcuma alismatifolia are easy to grow and pretty. I believe it is in the Ginger family, and are sometimes called Thai or Siamese tulips. http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki/index.php/Curcuma ---- I need to learn how to use the features of my digital camera better. The area I have the most problems with is in getting close-up photos of flowers to be in focus. Often I can't tell until after I downloaded the photos after the flower has wilted away. Anyway, I uploaded a couple of photos of Polianthes ×brundrantii which is a hybrid of P. howardii and P. tuberosa (the tuberose). However, I detected no scent at all, which is a little disappointing. I don't know why the entire view of the flower spike isn't all in focus. However, the close-up of some of the blooms was okay. http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki/index.php/Polianthes ---- That's it. --Lee Poulsen Pasadena area, California, USDA Zone 9-10 From wpoulsen@pacbell.net Thu Sep 16 14:39:11 2004 Message-Id: From: Lee Poulsen Subject: Are invasive species a major cause of extinctions?-Gurevitch & Padilla-Trends in Ecology & Evolution Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2004 11:39:09 -0700 This isn't going to come out as readable as the original PDF file (especially the tables), but it is an interesting journal article that just appeared showing that it is as yet unknown and unproven whether invasive species actually cause the extinction of native species. --Lee Poulsen Pasadena area, California, USDA Zone 9-10 ============================================= http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi=B6VJ1-4CX6XXG -2&_coverDate=09%2F01%2F2004&_alid=201566101&_rdoc=1&_fmt=&_orig=search& _qd=1&_cdi=6081&_sort=d&view=c&_acct=C000009698&_version=1&_urlVersion=0 &_userid=120530&md5=02debf11a85cf48ef84d5679aec6a66f Trends in Ecology & Evolution Volume 19, Issue 9, September 2004, Pages 470-474 Copyright © 2004 Elsevier Ltd All rights reserved. Are invasive species a major cause of extinctions? Jessica Gurevitch and Dianna K. Padilla Department of Ecology and Evolution, Stony Brook University, Stony Brook, NY 11794-5245, USA The link between species invasions and the extinction of natives is widely accepted by scientists as well as conservationists, but available data supporting invasion as a cause of extinctions are, in many cases, anecdotal, speculative and based upon limited observation. We pose the question, are aliens generally responsible for widespread extinctions? Our goal is to prompt a more critical synthesis and evaluation of the available data, and to suggest ways to take a more scientific, evidence-based approach to understanding the impact of invasive species on extinctions. Greater clarity in our understanding of these patterns will help us to focus on the most effective ways to reduce or mitigate extinction threats from invasive species. Article Outline 1. What do we know about invasive species and extinctions? 2. Assessing the contribution of alien species to native declines 2.1. Generalizing from available information on threats 3. Species imperiled by aliens in the USA 4. Global data from the IUCN red list 5. All invasions are not created equal 6. Conclusions Acknowledgements References Ecologists, conservation biologists and managers widely believe that invasions by non-native species are a leading cause of recent species extinctions 1 and 2. The introduction and spread of non-native species has become a global ecological and conservation crisis as invasive organisms are increasingly altering terrestrial and aquatic communities worldwide. The loss of biodiversity and species extinction are, likewise, major ongoing crises. Native species declines often occur simultaneously and in the same place as invasion by non-native species, leading many conservationists and researchers to believe that invasions and extinctions are closely linked. We suggest that there are several problems with the seemingly inextricable link between species invasions and the extinction of natives. To date, there has been insufficient critical evaluation of overall global patterns of the extent to which invasion is implicated in extinctions, or the conditions and circumstances under which invasions are most likely to lead to extinctions. We aim to prompt a more critical evaluation of these data, and to suggest ways to take a more scientific, evidence-based approach to understanding the role of invasive species in extinctions. 1. What do we know about invasive species and extinctions? Existing data on causes of extinctions and threats are, in many cases, anecdotal, speculative, or based upon limited field observation. Although it is clear that obtaining quantitative and experimental data are impossible under many circumstances, the problem remains that correlation is too often assumed to imply causation. For example, severe habitat alteration (e.g. deforestation), decline or extinction of native plants, and the proliferation of exotic plant species commonly co-occur. Are non-native plants causing the decline of natives, or are the decline of the natives and the proliferation of the exotics both a result of habitat alteration? It is important to distinguish between these alternatives: is removing exotics essential to prevent the extinction of endemic natives, or is it largely a waste of managers’ time and effort? Multiple threats can also act synergistically to cause declines or extinctions. However, if invasives are not a primary cause of extinction or major contributors to declines of species (locally or globally) but are instead merely correlated with other problems, the resources and efforts devoted to removing exotics might be better focused on more effective means to preserve threatened species. The overarching category ‘threatened by aliens’ might also be misleading, for two reasons: we must distinguish the relative importance of different functional groups in causing extinctions, and also examine whether broad groups of invasives, or merely particular species, are largely responsible. Based upon theory and observational data, alien predators and pathogens have been predicted to be far more likely than exotic competitors to cause the extinction of native species [3]. Even within functional groups, a few species appear to have caused a disproportionate share of incipient and actual extinctions. A few widespread rat species, feral pigs (as in Hawaii, Box 1), several predatory snakes (particularly on islands), possibly annual Mediterranean grasses and several other plants, a few microbial pathogens and a finite list of other invaders might be responsible for most of the extinction risk posed by aliens. Alien plants might be more likely to cause displacement and community change rather than causing species extinctions. This is the case, for example, for Psidium cattleianum in rainforests in Madagascar, where its presence has altered diversity patterns in communities that were disturbed as long as 150 years ago, but its presence has not resulted in the loss of native plant species [4]. If a few cosmopolitan invaders are causing the extinction of many native endemics, we should focus on those particular invasive species, rather than on alien species in general, to mitigate extinction risk. The better we understand both patterns and mechanisms causing declines, the better we can focus our efforts on the most effective ways to reduce or mitigate threats. ---- Box 1 Leading alien agents of extinctions? High profile invaders are often implicated in species extinction. However, when the data are more thoroughly examined, their role as the direct causes of extinction can be drawn into question in some cases. Although extinction might be coincident with the appearance of invaders, it can be difficult to disentangle the relative impacts of the invader and other stressors. The Nile perch (Lates niloticus) introduced into Lake Victoria during the 1960s is frequently implicated in the extirpation of native cichlids from the lake 11, 12 and 13, but the decline in cichlids probably started during the 1920s with the development of railroads, erosion, and shoreline destruction [12]. Urbanization during the 1970s increased eutrophication and decreased lake transparency from 8 to 1.5 m 12 and 13. With increased nutrient loading, anoxic events resulting in fish kills are now common. Increased nutrients appear to favor another invader, the water hyacinth (Eichhornia crassipes), which has also been implicated in fish declines by altering nursery areas for juvenile fishes [11]. But removal of both water hyacinth and the Nile perch, even if possible, would not solve the problems created by altered land use and nutrient pollution. Zebra mussels (Dreissena polymorpha) are currently considered to be the major threat to North American freshwater unionid bivalves [14]. Of a historic 281 species, 19 are known to be extinct, 21 are thought to be extinct, 77 are endangered, 43 are threatened, and 72 are of special concern. Zebra mussels require hard substrates for attachment. In lake bottoms hard substrates tend to be rare, and the shells of native bivalves offer the most abundant substrates for zebra mussel settlement. Overgrowth by zebra mussels can make it difficult for unionids to burrow and move through sediment, can increase drag and the likelihood of dislodgment by water motion, can occlude the openings in unionid valves, prevent opening for respiration, feeding and reproduction, and zebra mussels may directly compete with unionids for food [15]. Nevertheless the role of zebra mussels in unionid declines in North America is unclear. Unionid declines began long before zebra mussels were introduced during the mid-1980s [16] and, to date, no species have gone extinct as a result of the introduction of zebra mussels. Pre-introduction declines were caused by habitat destruction and deterioration resulting from water diversion, erosion, an increase in eutrophication (which causes periods of anoxia), pesticides, loss of host fish for parasitic unionid larvae, historic harvesting for the button industry and harvesting for the pearl industry 15 and 16. ---- There are several well known cases in which invasions are strongly linked to extinctions. In some of these, invaders have been a major cause of the decline and loss of species. For example, the predatory brown tree snake Boiga irregularis was introduced into Guam during the early 1950s and has since been linked, both directly and indirectly, to the extinction of the native vertebrate species [2]. However, in other cases, the picture is less clear (Box 1). Several recent papers have questioned the link between invasion and loss of diversity 3, 5, 6 and 7. These studies do not directly address whether invasions are causing the extinction of native species but focus on the total number of species before and after invasion. Although this approach is intriguing, total numbers do not tell the whole story. Most ecologists would not, for example, regard the establishment of five new widespread alien species in a region as ‘biotic compensation’ for the extinction of five endemics. Case studies of particular instances of exotic species as major contributors to extinction on the one hand, and counts of numbers of species before and after invasions on the other, each offer insights into whether invasions are a major cause of extinction. However, can we say anything more general about whether the invasion of exotic species is a major cause of the disappearance of natives? Are there some conditions under which, or some kinds of species or systems in which, this is more likely to occur? To answer such questions, it is necessary to synthesize quantitatively the results of many case studies, preferably of the highest-quality data that can be obtained. 2. Assessing the contribution of alien species to native declines Until recently, it has not been possible to quantify or assess general patterns of threats to endangered and threatened species (and causes of extinction), because data on threats and causes of extinction were limited and scattered. Several recent major efforts to collect and compile such data and to categorize threats and causes of extinction are beginning to make this information available and searchable electronically. Two of the most important sources are Wilcove et al. [1] for the USA, and the International Union for Conservation of Natural Resources (IUCN) Red List [8] for species threatened worldwide. We examined these two sources to evaluate some of the widespread assumptions about invasion and extinction. 2.1. Generalizing from available information on threats These and other similar data sets are invaluable assets in efforts to begin to better understand the nature of the causes of decline for threatened or extinct species. All currently available data have inherent limitations: most of the information is based upon unpublished observation and impressions, and is highly variable in quality, depending upon the observers and the system and taxon in question. Most imperiled species face more than one threat, and it is difficult to disentangle proximate and ultimate causes of decline or interactions between different threats and to evaluate their relative importance. Exotic species might be a primary cause for decline, a contributing factor for a species already in serious trouble, the final nail in the coffin or merely the bouquet at the funeral. Although there are limitations to the data available on causes of extinction threats, assembling these large databases is a difficult task. We believe that these data compilations, even given their limitations, are more valuable and offer more information in assessing overarching patterns than does attempting to generalize from individual case studies, because the compilations present the opportunity to obtain a more comprehensive picture of the nature of threats. Although it is a daunting task, we must begin to identify general patterns of the role and importance of invasions in extinctions as best as we can, to attempt to understand the nature of global threats to biodiversity and prioritize our responses to these threats. 3. Species imperiled by aliens in the USA Wilcove et al. were the first to quantify data on threats to imperiled species based upon a range of sources, including published sources, government lists and interviews with specialists familiar with particular species and regions [1]. The paper is widely cited and is the primary source in the literature for the belief that invasive species are a direct and leading cause of extinction. The authors reported that habitat loss was the greatest threat to imperiled species within the USA (threatening 85% of the species classified as imperiled), followed by alien species (threatening ~50% of species). Wilcove et al. [1] examined 2490 USA species categorized as threatened, of which 1880 species had specific threat data. We reanalyzed the Wilcove et al. [1] data for the 930 species that they categorized as being imperiled by aliens (i.e. the half of their dataset for which species were listed as being affected by aliens). We classified each threatened species according to all of the particular classes of threat (Table 1, plus a single class for otherwise unclassified or unknown threats) listed as affecting it. ---- Table 1. Numbers of species affected by different threats believed to be responsible for causing population declinesa Causes of decline All species [930] Plants [602] Birds [68] Direct human habitat destruction and fragmentation, including logging, road building and diversion of water 497 233 48 Exploitation (hunting, fishing and collecting) and poisoning and/or trapping 90 19 11 Fire and changes in fire regime 102 92 1 Pollution (herbicides, pesticides, oil spills, etc.) 32 4 5 Invasive alien predators and herbivores 131 73 39 Alien plants: competition and indirect habitat effects 431 410 19 Competition with exotic animals (excluding feral and domestic animals)b 67 0 14 Feral pigs (herbivory, predation, competition and/or habitat effects) 268 257 8 Grazing and/or trampling by domestic and feral cattle, goats, sheep, horses and burros 327 295 13 Hybridization with alien species 22 5 0 Diseases (including alien and native species) 33 3 23 Parasites (physiological and behavioral) 3 0 2 Other or unknown 169 134 8 a Reclassification of data on all of the cases in which species were categorized as being imperiled by aliens by Wilcove et al. ([1], http://www.natureserve.org). Categories are nonexclusive and so numbers do not sum to total species numbers. b We believe that domestic cattle should be categorized separately from alien invasive species, even though they are non-native in most areas in which they affect native species. Unlike invasive aliens, the population sizes and distribution of cattle are usually controlled by humans. Thus, cattle are not invasive in any of the usual meanings of the word, although they might have large effects on native populations, communities and ecosystems. ---- We found that these threatened species are, on average, faced with 2.5 specific types of threat (of those listed on Table 1) per species. Species in two of the largest threatened groups, plants and birds, are both typically affected by multiple threats (2.6 threats per species for plants and 2.8 for birds). Hawaiian endemics constitute a large proportion of the imperiled USA birds (43%) and plants (39%) threatened by alien species. By looking at the nature of the combined threats to these species, we can make several inferences (Box 2). If feral pigs, goats and alien plants are causing the declines of many native Hawaiian plants, are the alien plants the primary, or even a contributory, cause of the decline in natives, or are they coincidental to the disturbance caused by feral pigs and goats? It is not possible to distinguish between these alternatives definitively with these data. However, if competition with alien plant species was a primary cause for population declines in native plants, one would expect >2–4% of species to be affected by invasive plants alone. ---- Box 2 Threats by aliens to USA species (see [1] for details and definitions) There are 602 USA plant species affected by alien species (of 1055 threatened plants, http://www.natureserve.org). However, competitive displacement by aliens is rarely described as posing the only threat to a native plant. Of these 602 species, 20% are threatened by both habitat loss and by exotic plant species. Almost 40% (231 species) of all plants listed as imperiled by alien species in the USA are Hawaiian endemics that are imperiled by the ‘vicious triumvirate’ of feral pigs, goats and alien plants (and often cattle). This is a particular problem because these threatened plants occur in areas that are protected, or are otherwise not currently subject to habitat loss or direct habitat destruction by humans. But how much of a threat do the alien plants pose themselves? Of all the USA plants considered imperiled and affected by aliens, only 4% are affected only by alien plant species but not by cattle, pigs, goats, or other alien herbivores, or by direct habitat damage (i.e. 2.3% of the total imperiled USA plants; http://www.natureserve.org). Alien plants affect native plants in combination with habitat damage by humans, or by pigs, goats and cattle. For example, Xylosma crenatum (=X. crenata, Flacourtiaceae, no known common name) is an endangered (<20 extant individuals) montane tree that is endemic to Kauai in the Hawaiian Islands. Its decline has been attributed to competition from invasive exotic plants (http://www.natureserve.org). However, major threats to the survival of this species also include habitat loss and degradation caused by domestic livestock and feral pigs, and intrinsically low reproductive rates [8]. For birds, population declines for 68 of the 98 imperiled species in the USA have been attributed to aliens (Table 1, main text; http://www.natureserve.org). Direct effects of habitat destruction by humans, and hunting or collecting are also major threats ([1], http://www.natureserve.org). Alien predators presented the greatest threat of all alien groups, threatening 57% of the bird species affected by aliens (of a total of 68 species), followed by alien pathogens (all in Hawaii, representing 34% of the birds affected by aliens of all kinds); feral pigs and goats and domestic cattle also play a destructive role, as do other exotic animals acting as competitors (alone or in combination affecting 47% of the birds affected by aliens; see also Table 1, main text). Alien plants also appear to affect birds, threatening 24% of the bird species affected by aliens, but most of these are affected by both alien plants and direct habitat damage by humans (<6% are affected by alien plants but not habitat destruction). Here, again, the evidence for damage owing to plants is correlative, and it is unknown whether the alien plants played a definitive causal role in the decline of any bird species. For bird species that are affected by multiple agents, direct habitat destruction by humans in addition to alien predators affected 38% of the birds affected by aliens. Another 19% of these threatened birds are affected by alien predators but not by direct habitat destruction by humans, suggesting that alien predators play a more direct role in bird declines than do alien plants in the decline of either plants or birds. ---- Alien predators and competitors threaten many of the imperiled bird species (Box 2). However, although 28% of bird species were listed as being negatively affected by alien plants (presumably owing to alterations in habitat or food resources), only four bird species were listed as being affected by alien plants species but not by the direct effects of humans on their habitats. Consequently, until we have better data, it is difficult to know whether the alien plants are responding opportunistically to the same habitat damage that is negatively affecting the birds, or if the effects of the alien plants on native bird habitats are harming bird populations. 4. Global data from the IUCN red list The IUCN Red List [8] includes documentation of 18 318 species that are extinct, endangered, or threatened globally. (Not all countries and all imperiled species are included, owing to insufficient data.) The IUCN Red List is the most comprehensive database available for the conservation status of threatened plant and animal species globally. In contrast to the USA data, we examined the entire database, not just those species threatened by aliens. We used the threat categories specified by that database. Threat data are not available for all species on the IUCN Red List; most of those with such data list multiple threats. Of the species with known threats, 33% (6069) include habitat loss and alteration as a cause of decline or potential threat. Exploitation (e.g. hunting, fishing, trapping and poisoning) is listed as a cause of decline for 7.6% of species. Only 6% of imperiled taxa list direct and indirect effects of all kinds from naturalized alien species as contributing to their decline (Table 2); that is, more than five times as many species are categorized as being threatened or endangered by habitat loss than by alien species. ---- Table 2. Numbers of species affected by alien species and livestock from the IUCN Red List (of 18 318 species total)a Threat No. of species affected Alien species (naturalized) Direct effects of all kinds, including effects of an unspecified nature 911 Competition from aliens 137 Effects on plants 100 Effects on animals 37 Herbivory and/or predation by aliens 161 On plants 48 On animals 113 Alien pathogens and parasites 58 Indirect effects (habitat alteration, etc.) 172 Affecting plants 108 Affecting animals 63 Livestock (domesticated) Effects on plants 521 Effects on animals 92 a Calculated from data from [8]. ---- Competition with invasive species is implicated as a threat to three times as many plants as animals, whereas predation or herbivory by invasives threatens about twice as many animal as plant species (Table 2). Strikingly, more than three and a half times as many plant species have been affected by livestock grazing and trampling than by either competition with or herbivory by nondomesticated, invasive aliens; livestock threaten almost as many animal species as are threatened by alien predators and many more than are affected by alien competitors (Table 2). Many of the plant and animal species threatened by alien species are also threatened by other factors, especially habitat destruction, and some threatened groups (particularly freshwater fish) tend to be affected by both competition and predation from aliens. Little is known about the specific causes of extinction for most species that are already extinct [8]. Of the 762 species globally documented to have become extinct as a result of human activities in the past few hundred years, <2% list alien species as a cause. 5. All invasions are not created equal Much of the discussion of the threats to biodiversity posed by invasions is couched in overarching terms, as though all invasive species pose equal threats, and all invaded communities are equally threatened. This is certainly not true. Of all of the modern extinctions catalogued in the IUCN Red List [8], most are species from terrestrial habitats (570 species), followed by those from freshwater habitats (222), with fewest modern extinctions occurring in marine habitats (21, mostly sea birds). More terrestrial than aquatic species are also endangered or otherwise impacted by aliens. For all species in the IUCN Red List, aliens directly affect 882 terrestrial species (of 15 504 species total, 5.7%), 59 of 3042 freshwater species (2.0%, mostly birds) and 87 of 737 marine species (11.8%, mostly sea birds). For all marine species considered to be critically endangered and impacted by aliens (one mammal and 14 birds), other causal factors, in addition to alien species, are also listed. Of the 21 total marine species listed to have gone extinct (four mammals, 11 birds, one fish, four molluscs, one alga), none are attributed to invasive alien species; most were extinct before 1900 and before many modern invasions. Marine species are considered to have very low risks of extinction because the size of the oceans of the world creates large continuous habitats, and because the open nature of marine habitats and the life-history characteristics of many marine species result in extensive dispersal potential to recolonize and repopulate depauperate areas ([9], but see [10]). We also considered the evidence for the prediction that introduced predators would be more likely to cause extinctions than would introduced competitors [3]. These predictions are only partially supported by patterns that we found for the data sets that we looked at. Neither the effects of competition nor predation were definitively greater overall in either data base. For example, in the Red List data, plants were threatened more by competition than were animals, whereas for predation the results were opposite (Table 2). Domesticated livestock and feral grazers (cattle, goats, pigs, etc., including the physical disturbance that they cause) affected more plants than did either competition or predation, and roughly as many animal species as did predation (Table 1 and Table 2). We suggest that the contrasts between the effects of aliens in aquatic versus terrestrial systems are at least as important as the differences between alien competitors and predators. Future data syntheses, as well as the development of theory, must go beyond comparing the effects of alien predators and competitors to consider a greater range of contrasts among functional types of invader and systems invaded to reach a better understanding of these patterns. 6. Conclusions Invasive exotic species are causing dramatic changes in many ecological systems worldwide, and there is no question that invasive species are profoundly altering many communities and ecosystems. Seeing these widespread changes, biologists, environmentalists and managers are alarmed about invasions leading to large-scale declines and extinctions of natives. This might prove to be a realistic concern. However, the assumed importance of the invaders in causing widespread extinctions is to date unproven, and is based upon limited observation and inference. Evidence supporting a general and primary role for invasive aliens in extinctions remains limited. We must be as specific and as clear as possible about the nature of threats to species at risk. If we determine that domestic livestock are causing widespread plant extinctions, it is far more informative to focus on the impact of domestic livestock than to say, more generally, that aliens are causing these extinctions even when cattle are non-native, because then we can deal with this threat directly rather than diluting preservation efforts trying to combat all aliens. The more specific our understanding is of the nature of the threats, the more specifically we can address mitigation of those threats. The generalization that alien species are playing a widespread role in extinctions is, to date, too unspecific to be either accurate or useful. More work is needed to document and better understand the role of alien species in pushing native species towards extinction, to evaluate their impact relative to that of other factors, to determine in which systems species are most likely to be endangered by aliens and to identify which aliens are most likely to cause extinctions. Acknowledgements We thank Lynn Korner of Nature Serve (http://www.natureserve.org) and David Wilcove for making their data base available to us and for providing additional data on threats to USA species, and wish to express our appreciation to the people at the IUCN for putting together and making worldwide threat data electronically freely accessible. Three anonymous reviewers greatly improved the clarity of the paper, for which we thank them. We gratefully acknowledge funding from the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency (EPA R828900010 to J.G. and M. Lerdau) and U.S. NOAA/Sea Grant (R/CE-18 to D.K.P., D. Schneider, and C. Rehmann; and Award NA16RG1044, Project R/ES-54 to D.K.P. and T. Klinger). References 1 D.S. Wilcove et al., quantifying threats to imperiled species in the United States, Bioscience 48 (1998), pp. 607–615. Abstract-Elsevier BIOBASE   2 T.H. Fritts and G.H. Rodda, The role of introduced species in the degradation of island ecosystems: a case history of Guam, Annu. Rev. Ecol. Syst. 29 (1998), pp. 113–140. Abstract-GEOBASE   | Full Text via CrossRef 3 M.A. Davis, Biotic globalization: does competition from introduced species threaten biodiversity?, Bioscience 53 (2003), pp. 481–489. Abstract-Elsevier BIOBASE   4 K.A. Brown and J. Gurevitch, Long-term impacts of logging on forest diversity in Madagascar, Proc. Natl. Acad. Sci. U. S. A. 101 (2004), pp. 6045–6049. Abstract-MEDLINE | Abstract-Elsevier BIOBASE | Abstract-EMBASE   | Full Text via CrossRef 5 D.F. Sax et al., Species invasions exceed extinctions on islands worldwide: a comparative study of plants and birds, Am. 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Fisher. 10 (2000), pp. 233–241. Abstract-GEOBASE   | Full Text via CrossRef 12 D. Verschuren et al., History and timing of human impact on Lake Victoria, East Africa, Proc. R. Soc. Lond. Ser. B 269 (2002), pp. 289–294. Abstract-EMBASE | Abstract-Elsevier BIOBASE | Abstract-OceanBase | Abstract-MEDLINE | Abstract-GEOBASE   | Full Text via CrossRef 13 P.A. Aloo, Biological diversity of the Yala Swamp lakes, with special emphasis on fish species composition, in relation to changes in the Lake Victoria Basin (Kenya): threats and conservation measures, Biodiv. Conserv. 12 (2003), pp. 905–920. Abstract-GEOBASE | Abstract-Elsevier BIOBASE   | Full Text via CrossRef 14 A. Ricciardi et al., Impending extinctions of North American freshwater mussels (Unionoida) following the zebra mussel (Dreissena polymorpha) invasion, J. Anim. Ecol. 67 (1998), pp. 613–619. Abstract-GEOBASE | Abstract-Elsevier BIOBASE   | Full Text via CrossRef 15 L.E. Burlakova et al., The impact of Dreissena polymorpha (Pallas) invasion on unionid bivalves, Int. Rev. Hydrobiol. 85 (2000), pp. 529–541. Abstract-GEOBASE | Abstract-OceanBase | Abstract-Elsevier BIOBASE   | Full Text via CrossRef 16 R.J. Neves, Conservation and commerce: management of freshwater mussel (Bivalvia: Unionoidea) resources in the United States, Malacologia 41 (1999), pp. 461–474. Trends in Ecology & Evolution Volume 19, Issue 9, September 2004, Pages 470-474 Copyright © 2004 Elsevier B.V. All rights reserved. ScienceDirect® is a registered trademark of Elsevier B.V. From piabinha@yahoo.com Thu Sep 16 14:50:10 2004 Message-Id: <20040916185002.10241.qmail@web51904.mail.yahoo.com> From: piaba Subject: Are invasive species a major cause of extinctions?-Gurevitch & Padilla-Trends in Ecology & Evolution Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2004 11:50:02 -0700 (PDT) --- Lee Poulsen wrote: > This isn't going to come out as readable as the > original PDF file > (especially the tables), but it is an interesting > journal article that > just appeared showing that it is as yet unknown and > unproven whether > invasive species actually cause the extinction of > native species. well, the biggest invasive species in the world (Homo sapiens) has been linked to large mass extinctions in various parts of the world, such as the megafaunal collapses in north america and madagascar, that coincided with that species' arrival... ===== tsuh yang __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - You care about security. So do we. http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From Dpescadera@aol.com Thu Sep 16 17:39:21 2004 Message-Id: From: Dpescadera@aol.com Subject: (no subject) Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2004 17:39:16 EDT I just attended a lecture, and the speaker said that you should never put apples with tulips in the refrigerator because of gases(it was injurious to the tulips). Is this true, and is it true for any other fruit? Sincerely, Diana Fish From jimmckenney@starpower.net Thu Sep 16 17:42:50 2004 Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.20040916174307.009dd5b0@pop.starpower.net> From: Jim McKenney Subject: New wiki photos; Worsleya bloom Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2004 17:43:07 -0400 Lee, what a wonderful batch of photos! You must be one happy gardener lately. The Japanese Lycoris amazed me: it's really beautiful, and so unlike other Lycoris. And while checking out your Rhodophiala photos, I was wow-ed by your photo of R.bifida blooming en masse. For someone who is glad to see a single scape on this species, that photo was amazing. Your Worsleya photos brought back some memories. If you're as old as I am you probably remember when Park Seed offered seed of this species yearly - and seed of Hippeastrum calyptratum, too! Thanks for sharing. Jim McKenney From msittner@mcn.org Thu Sep 16 18:20:58 2004 Message-Id: <4.2.2.20040916151421.01e13cd0@mail.mcn.org> From: Mary Sue Ittner Subject: New wiki photos; Worsleya bloom Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2004 15:19:09 -0700 Dear All, Some time ago I asked on this list whether the name on the wiki should be Worsleya procera or Worsleya rayneri? I looked it up in IPNI and both were recorded names and there was no mention of synonyms. W. procera does have an earlier date. No one responded to my question. So I'll ask it again after I offer congratulations to Lee on his blooming plant. Is there just one species of this genus and should we have it listed as Worsleya procera (syn. Worselya rayneri) instead of the other way around? We'd like to be giving out the most current information on the wiki and this is not a plant I follow so appreciate help from those of you who do. Thanks. Mary Sue From johnbryan@worldnet.att.net Thu Sep 16 18:29:48 2004 Message-Id: <414A1330.3C4B0BF0@worldnet.att.net> From: John Bryan Subject: (no subject) Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2004 15:26:56 -0700 Dear Diana: Yes it is true, etheleyne gas is given off by the fruit which can harm the bulbs and cause problems with flowering. Cheers, John E. Bryan Dpescadera@aol.com wrote: > > I just attended a lecture, and the speaker said that you should never put > apples with tulips in the refrigerator because of gases(it was injurious to the > tulips). Is this true, and is it true for any other fruit? Sincerely, Diana > Fish > _______________________________________________ > pbs mailing list > pbs@lists.ibiblio.org > http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php From wpoulsen@pacbell.net Thu Sep 16 20:25:19 2004 Message-Id: <0BA45032-0840-11D9-B142-003065EFBD84@pacbell.net> From: Lee Poulsen Subject: New wiki photos; Worsleya bloom Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2004 17:25:15 -0700 On Sep 16, 2004, at 3:19 PM, Mary Sue Ittner wrote: > Dear All, > > Some time ago I asked on this list whether the name on the wiki should > be Worsleya procera or Worsleya rayneri? I looked it up in IPNI and > both were recorded names and there was no mention of synonyms. W. > procera does have an earlier date. > > No one responded to my question. So I'll ask it again after I offer > congratulations to Lee on his blooming plant. Is there just one > species of this genus and should we have it listed as Worsleya procera > (syn. Worselya rayneri) instead of the other way around? > > We'd like to be giving out the most current information on the wiki > and this is not a plant I follow so appreciate help from those of you > who do. Thanks. > > Mary Sue > > Begin forwarded message: > From: "Glenn Callcott" > Date: May 3, 2002 5:34:25 AM PDT > To: > Subject: [Worsleya_rayneri_growers] Worsleya procera > > This essay was written by David Mabberley who belongs to the > International Society of Plant Taxonomists (it may have another name) > and who has recently renamed the Worsleya. >   > THE NAME OF THE BLUE AMARYLLIS, OR > WOSLEYA PROCERA RIDES AGAIN > > The blue amaryllis was first described as Amaryllis procera Duch. in > 1863. The generic name Worsleya was proposed for it by William Watson > in 1912, but not validly published then, though it was later used as a > subgeneric name in Amaryllis L. and first validly published as subg. > Worsleya Traub. Traub subsequently raised his subgenus to generic rank > as Worsleya (Traub) Traub (in Herbertia 10: 89, t. 246, 1944). > > In 1944, Traub also transferred Amaryllis procera Duch. to the new > genus making the name W. procera ('Duch.') Traub, the name first > suggested informally in 1912 and widely used since 1944. > > Subsequently, in 1949, Traub and Moldenke realised that Amaryllis > procera Duch. had been antedated by A. procera Salisb. (1796), the > name [actually a superfluous one!] for a completely unrelated plant > (apparently a species of Crinum). This meant that A. procera Duch. was > 'still-born', being a 'later homonym' and therefore an illegitimate > name. They therefore cast about for another name for the Worsleya and > chose the next-published in Amaryllis, A. rayneri Hook.f.., and made > the new name W. rayneri (Hook.f.) Traub and Moldenke, which has since > been followed by many. > > But they were wrong, as W. rayneri is an illegitimate substitution for > the original W. procera, which has therefore been restored by > Mabberley, Plant-book ed. 2, corr. reprint (1998), because they > overlooked the fact that the earliest validly published name is > Hippeastrum procerum Lem. (Ill. Horticole: t. 408, 1864), which > antedates A. rayneri, even though they included it in the synonyms.  > > Hippeastrum procerum Lem. is based on A. procera Duch., not A. procera > Salisb., but as the first was illegitimate, it is considered a nomen > novum with just 'Lem.' [= Lemaire] as authority and therefore a > validly published name. As it is based on the same plant as W. procera > ('Duch.') Traub, it can act as the base-name for the latter, which is > (with a minor authority change), correctly [once more!]: > > *Worsleya procera* (Lem.) Traub > (syn. Amaryllis procera Duch., nom. illegit. [non A. procera > Salisb.]; Hippeastrum procerum Lem. [nom. nov. pro. A. procera Duch. > non Salisb.]; A. rayneri Hook.f.; W. rayneri (Hook.f.) Traub & > Moldenke, nom. illegit.) > >   > (Whether Worsleya deserves generic rank or not is another matter and > resolution must await the results of DNA studies in this tight-knit > group of > Amaryllidaceae).                                                        >                    David Mabberley > > > From: "Alan Meerow" > Date: May 5, 2002 5:15:43 PM PDT > To: > Subject: Re: [Worsleya_rayneri_growers] Worsleya procera > > Mabberly also needs to read Systematic Botany where the issue of > whether Worsleya is closely related to Hippeastrum was (hopefully) put > to rest by my and co-workers DNA studies! >   > Does anyone know where he published this note? >   > Alan Meerow From jwaddick@kc.rr.com Fri Sep 17 00:07:41 2004 Message-Id: From: James Waddick Subject: New wiki photos; Worsleya bloom BUT..... Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2004 23:07:27 -0500 Dear Lee; et al; Wow I am impressed with the Worsleya pics. Great. Not an easy task. I am 100% certain the "Lycoris" is not that genus. Amaryllis belladonna? There were a number of Japanese hybrids introduced by Van Bourgondien a few years ago and they turn up there every now and then. I am not that familiar with Amaryllis, but I know Lycoris and it doesn't look like any species or hybrid I know. Check again. Jim W. -- Dr. James W. Waddick Near KCI Airport Kansas City Missouri 64152-2711 USA Ph. 816-746-1949 Zone 5 Record low -23F Summer 100F + From msittner@mcn.org Fri Sep 17 01:20:26 2004 Message-Id: <4.2.2.20040916214517.01e0e100@mail.mcn.org> From: Mary Sue Ittner Subject: New wiki photos--what name to use Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2004 22:18:44 -0700 Dear Lee, Thanks so much for posting the information from the source about the correct name for Worsleya. I have linked your post to the wiki page and changed the name on the wiki page and changed the file names as well. As I tried to read through it and keep it all straight I was thinking about how this kind of thing can drive someone who just wants to learn the name of a plant and stick with it crazy. The suggestion for change in the way they handle naming plants you provided for us recently I found very intriguing and a much more practical way for us to keep track than the current system. I thought your Lycoris looked very Amaryllis belladonna like too. I remember the year I ordered Amaryllis belladonna for an unnamed bulb company and it turned out to be a Nerine which was probably better since that made it more likely to bloom. Finally while we are on the subject of names, in the past we created a wiki page for Hesperoxiphion peruvianum which is the same thing as Cypella peruviana which you have also just added to the wiki. I think we went with the other name since that was what some of the people who grew these plants thought was the proper term. Do we have any one wanting to make a case for either name as the correct one to use? I'm happy to reference both names on the wiki, but I don't think we should have pictures of the same plant calling it different things without explaining that it is the same thing. The pictures should be together on one page or the other with a cross reference on the other page. Thanks for all the great additions to the wiki, pictures and text too. You always seem to have so many things in bloom when a lot of us Mediterranean gardeners are just getting started. Mary Sue From wpoulsen@pacbell.net Fri Sep 17 01:22:49 2004 Message-Id: <9C5B6460-0869-11D9-A113-0003936313F6@pacbell.net> From: Lee Poulsen Subject: New wiki photos; Worsleya bloom BUT..... Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2004 22:22:47 -0700 I grow lots Amaryllis belladonna and they bloomed several weeks earlier than this did. They're also much larger and have a strong, sweet, almost candy-like scent, and they have many blooms per scape and much taller scape stalks. They do so well here that they will naturalize without any additional watering or care. I got this bulb from Van Bourgondien a few years ago. Are you saying that those were not Lycoris? This is not like any Amaryllis that I've ever seen either. I wonder what it could be. --Lee Poulsen Pasadena area, California, USDA Zone 9-10 On Sep 16, 2004, at 9:07 PM, James Waddick wrote: > Dear Lee; et al; > Wow I am impressed with the Worsleya pics. Great. Not an easy task. > > I am 100% certain the "Lycoris" is not that genus. Amaryllis > belladonna? > There were a number of Japanese hybrids introduced by Van Bourgondien > a few years ago and they turn up there every now and then. > I am not that familiar with Amaryllis, but I know Lycoris and it > doesn't look like any species or hybrid I know. > > Check again. > > Jim W. > > > -- > Dr. James W. Waddick > Near KCI Airport > Kansas City Missouri 64152-2711 > USA > Ph. 816-746-1949 > Zone 5 Record low -23F > Summer 100F + > > _______________________________________________ > pbs mailing list > pbs@lists.ibiblio.org > http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php > From kellyo@wetrock.com Fri Sep 17 05:03:46 2004 Message-Id: <414A45F5.1608.181E399@localhost> From: "Kelly O'Neill" Subject: Are invasive species a major cause of extinctions?-Gurevitch... Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2004 02:03:33 -0700 On 16 Sep 2004 at 11:39, Lee Poulsen wrote: > ...an interesting journal article that > just appeared showing that it is as yet unknown and unproven whether > invasive species actually cause the extinction of native species. Scientists who use technically true information to make clearly false conclusions are in high demand. Those willing to ignore the obvious for $ get hired by corporations and corrupt government agencies (with names like Environmental Protection Agency) to help avoid the truths we do not want to believe. I believe DDT, lead, Agent Orange, asbestos, tobacco,... all have/had their scientist-champions. The idea that we should understand the science of the connection between extinction and invasive exotics is sound. Much in the article is good and true. The problem comes if this reasoning is used to take that usual next step to say something like "we should not limit our activities until the connection is proven to a scientific certainty first". As I see it, we ought to lean more in the opposite direction (protecting the web of life until we prove the safety of the potentially harmful activity - to a Scientific certainty). Either approach can be taken too far. I'm a seed-list-oholic. I experiment with things I have never heard of. I don't want the government taking away my freedom to sow. I am, however, nervous I will (or already have) let loose a plague upon my bioregion. In my climate things grow so well/quickly it is easier to see how an exotic can take over. A patch of Ivy, for instance, will mow down a square mile of 200 foot tall forest in a human lifetime. The Ivy might get replaced by natives in some future succession, I don't see that as likely. If business and quarterly profits control this sort of decisionmaking, it appears to me, we will destroy the web our descendants need to survive. It would not be hard to find a scientist who could appear to use the scientific method to prove me wrong. What scares me the most, is that many in business and science actually believe their false conclusions. Sorry to rant on so. The political season full of people believing clearly false promises gets me all riled up. KellyO From bulbmeister@bulbmeister.com Fri Sep 17 06:50:21 2004 Message-Id: <414AC18E.1070000@bulbmeister.com> From: Kelly Irvin Subject: New wiki photos; Worsleya bloom BUT..... Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2004 05:50:54 -0500 Dear Lee: I would have to agree with the others that your Lycoris is an Amaryllis belladonna. I ordered 'Flaming Dragon' from Van Bourgondien two different times. The second clump bloomed first and has turned out to be Lycoris radiata. The first clump finally bloomed this year and looks more like the photograph they portrayed as 'Flaming Dragon'. It's extremely beautiful to me, because it looks like a L. xhaywardii on color steroids, very dark. Lee Poulsen wrote: > I got this bulb from Van Bourgondien a few years ago. Are you saying > that those were not Lycoris? This is not like any Amaryllis that I've > ever seen either. I wonder what it could be. -- Mr. Kelly M. Irvin The Bulbmeister 4407 Town Vu Road Bentonville, AR 72712 479-366-4968 USDA Cold Hardiness Zone 6b E-mail: mailto:bulbmeister@bulbmeister.com Website: http://www.bulbmeister.com/ Forum: http://www.bulbmeister.com/forum/ From ptyerman@ozemail.com.au Fri Sep 17 07:57:41 2004 Message-Id: <6.1.2.0.0.20040917215049.03f7a730@pop.ozemail.com.au> From: Paul Tyerman Subject: Amaryllis belladonna not Lycoris Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2004 22:00:05 +1000 At 03:22 17/09/04, you wrote: >I grow lots Amaryllis belladonna and they bloomed several weeks earlier >than this did. They're also much larger and have a strong, sweet, almost >candy-like scent, and they have many blooms per scape and much taller >scape stalks. They do so well here that they will naturalize without any >additional watering or care. I got this bulb from Van Bourgondien a few >years ago. Are you saying that those were not Lycoris? This is not like >any Amaryllis that I've ever seen either. I wonder what it could be. Lee, I'd definitely call it an Amaryllis belladonna as well. I have belladonnas that range from 12-18 inches in height to around 3 foot or more..... flowers range dramatically in size and colouration as well. Also depending on whether involving multiflora breeding they can have a few flowers all facing the same way, or 25 or more flowers facing in a full circle. So there is a LOT of variability in belladonnas!! Your pic looks a lot like my "miniature" which has smaller flowers than the "normal" belldonna and much smaller leaves. Looking at the leaves they're so much smaller than the belladonnas, but the flowers are much closer to normal size. If my form is around then I am sure that there would be others with smaller leaves and quite probably smaller flowers. Hopefully this is of some help? Cheers. Paul Tyerman Canberra, Australia. USDA equivalent - Zone 8/9 Growing.... Galanthus, Erythroniums, Fritillarias, Trilliums, Cyclamen, Crocus, Cyrtanthus, Oxalis, Liliums, Hellebores, Aroids, Irises plus just about anything else that doesn't move!!!!! From wpoulsen@pacbell.net Fri Sep 17 12:29:47 2004 Message-Id: From: Lee Poulsen Subject: Amaryllis belladonna not Lycoris Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2004 09:29:45 -0700 Thanks, Paul and everyone else. I hope it is a "miniature" Amaryllis since I've never seen one before and this was really pretty. Although it would have been nice to get the real item that Kelly Irvin seems to have gotten. I seem to be having the worst time with wrongly labelled Lycoris! Oh well... --Lee Poulsen Pasadena area, California, USDA Zone 9-10 On Sep 17, 2004, at 5:00 AM, Paul Tyerman wrote: > I'd definitely call it an Amaryllis belladonna as well. I have > belladonnas that range from 12-18 inches in height to around 3 foot or > more..... flowers range dramatically in size and colouration as well. > Also depending on whether involving multiflora breeding they can have > a few flowers all facing the same way, or 25 or more flowers facing in > a full circle. So there is a LOT of variability in belladonnas!! > > > Your pic looks a lot like my "miniature" which has smaller flowers > than the "normal" belldonna and much smaller leaves. Looking at the > leaves they're so much smaller than the belladonnas, but the flowers > are much closer to normal size. If my form is around then I am sure > that there would be others with smaller leaves and quite probably > smaller flowers. > > Hopefully this is of some help? From wpoulsen@pacbell.net Fri Sep 17 12:33:39 2004 Message-Id: <532DFF42-08C7-11D9-8C87-003065EFBD84@pacbell.net> From: Lee Poulsen Subject: Are invasive species a major cause of extinctions?-Gurevitch... Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2004 09:33:37 -0700 Good comments. I sent out the article because I know there has been discussion of this issue several times in past years (with regards to "white lists" vs. "black lists", proposed regulations about seed importing/transporting, etc.). I'm not sure what I think about their conclusions yet. Your comments would seem to apply to the global warming controversy as well. Thanks. --Lee Poulsen Pasadena area, California, USDA Zone 9-10 On Sep 17, 2004, at 2:03 AM, Kelly O'Neill wrote: > On 16 Sep 2004 at 11:39, Lee Poulsen wrote: > >> ...an interesting journal article that >> just appeared showing that it is as yet unknown and unproven > whether >> invasive species actually cause the extinction of native species. > > Scientists who use technically true information to make clearly false > conclusions are in high demand. From jglatt@ptd.net Fri Sep 17 14:20:43 2004 Message-Id: <000701c49ce4$9c0a1700$af9a32d1@oemcomputer> From: "Judy Glattstein" Subject: refrigerators, bulbs, & ethylene gas Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2004 14:31:54 -0400 Myth busters of the world, unite! This has been an accepted piece of garden lore for at least as long as I've been gardening. However, it seems we have been worrying needlessly. According to information I received from a researcher in Holland, the amount of ethylene gas given off by fruit such as apples is relatively small. Further, refrigerator temperatures of 38° to 42° Fahrenheit reduces the production of ethylene gas, and also slows the bulbs' metabolism, further limiting the influence of the gas in the flower embryo within the bulbs. He seemed to think that the "ethylene gas blights bulbs' flowers" is just not supported by the facts. I discuss this at somewhat greater length/ more detail in "Bulbs for Garden Habitats" which will, God willing and the creeks don't rise, be released by Timber Press in May 2005. Judy in New Jersey where the creek, uninfluenced by hurricanes, has not yet risen. From piabinha@yahoo.com Fri Sep 17 15:18:04 2004 Message-Id: <20040917191803.96720.qmail@web51904.mail.yahoo.com> From: piaba Subject: New wiki photos; Worsleya bloom Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2004 12:18:03 -0700 (PDT) i believe it's now Hippeastrum procerum. there was also a recent issue of the national geographic magazine on brazil's atlantic rainforest. apparently there was a fire in one of the last remaining known locations of this plant, which severely reduced the population of this species. did anyone else see that issue? tsuh yang --- Mary Sue Ittner wrote: > Dear All, > > Some time ago I asked on this list whether the name > on the wiki should be > Worsleya procera or Worsleya rayneri? I looked it up > in IPNI and both were > recorded names and there was no mention of synonyms. > W. procera does have > an earlier date. > > No one responded to my question. So I'll ask it > again after I offer > congratulations to Lee on his blooming plant. Is > there just one species of > this genus and should we have it listed as Worsleya > procera (syn. Worselya > rayneri) instead of the other way around? > > We'd like to be giving out the most current > information on the wiki and > this is not a plant I follow so appreciate help from > those of you who do. > Thanks. > > Mary Sue __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - 50x more storage than other providers! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From piabinha@yahoo.com Fri Sep 17 15:23:11 2004 Message-Id: <20040917192310.38203.qmail@web51901.mail.yahoo.com> From: piaba Subject: Are invasive species a major cause of extinctions?-Gurevitch... Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2004 12:23:10 -0700 (PDT) --- Lee Poulsen wrote: > it is an interesting > journal article that > just appeared showing that it is as yet unknown and > unproven whether > invasive species actually cause the extinction of > native species. well, the biggest invasive species in the world (Homo sapiens) has been linked to large mass extinctions in various parts of the world, such as the megafaunal collapses in north america and madagascar (that coincided with that species' arrival)... ===== tsuh yang __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From jwaddick@kc.rr.com Sat Sep 18 00:39:33 2004 Message-Id: From: James Waddick Subject: Worsleya Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2004 14:26:52 -0500 Dear All; The aforementioned* 'Hippeastrum: The Gardener's Amaryillis' has a small chart comparing 16 characters that differ in Amaryllis (belladona), Hippeastrum and Worsleya (rayneri). I wonder if Kevin knows this chart and could compare Griffinia, too? Would be very interesting. Veronia Read makes it very clear why W. rayneri (not procerum) is accurate. Best Jim W. * But never responded about -- Dr. James W. Waddick Near KCI Airport Kansas City Missouri 64152-2711 USA Ph. 816-746-1949 Zone 5 Record low -23F Summer 100F + From IntarsiaCo@aol.com Fri Sep 17 15:46:01 2004 Message-Id: From: IntarsiaCo@aol.com Subject: refrigerators, bulbs, & ethylene gas Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2004 15:45:43 EDT In a message dated 9/17/2004 2:21:21 PM Eastern Daylight Time, jglatt@ptd.net writes: According to information I received from a researcher in Holland, the amount of ethylene gas given off by fruit such as apples is relatively small Judy: Did your researcher provide any hard figures? I have seen claims of apples producing anywhere from 30 to 200 ppm when stored in the fruit or vegetable crisper of a home refrigerator. Variables might include "ripeness" of the apple, variety, temperature and ventilation. Mark Mazer USDA Zone 5 Giant Schnauzer Rescue From claudesweet@cox.net Fri Sep 17 15:59:32 2004 Message-Id: <414B4222.4090905@cox.net> From: Claude Sweet Subject: refrigerators, bulbs, & ethylene gas Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2004 12:59:30 -0700 http://www.bulbs.com has several citations that relate to this question. Use the search engine and enter "ethylene gas and its effects" to locate the articles. The amounts of ethylene gas that will trigger a response can be as low as 10 parts per million to trigger the ripening process of kiwifruit stored at 33 degrees F. It is important to know the source of the ethylene - Apples are a high producer of ethylene - the temperature, and the minimum length of exposure the target produce or bulb has to the gas. This site is a profession organization of Dutch growers and should be reliable. Claude Sweet IntarsiaCo@aol.com wrote: >In a message dated 9/17/2004 2:21:21 PM Eastern Daylight Time, jglatt@ptd.net >writes: >According to information I received from a researcher in Holland, the amount >of ethylene gas given off by fruit such as apples is relatively small > >Judy: >Did your researcher provide any hard figures? I have seen claims of apples >producing anywhere from 30 to 200 ppm when stored in the fruit or vegetable >crisper of a home refrigerator. Variables might include "ripeness" of the apple, >variety, temperature and ventilation. > >Mark Mazer >USDA Zone 5 >Giant Schnauzer Rescue >_______________________________________________ >pbs mailing list >pbs@lists.ibiblio.org >http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php > > > From piabinha@yahoo.com Fri Sep 17 17:19:10 2004 Message-Id: <20040917211910.34871.qmail@web51904.mail.yahoo.com> From: piaba Subject: Worsleya bloom color Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2004 14:19:10 -0700 (PDT) i meant to ask about the color of the flowers. bill dijk's photo shows a much bluer flower than lee poulsen's. i assume this plant has flowers that are more purple-lavender than blue-lavender? ===== tsuh yang _______________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Declare Yourself - Register online to vote today! http://vote.yahoo.com From c-mueller@tamu.edu Fri Sep 17 17:54:48 2004 Message-Id: From: "Cynthia Mueller" Subject: refrigerators, bulbs, & ethylene gas Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2004 16:54:19 -0500 Dear Claude, When I clicked on this link, it went to a hyperstore for light bulbs....tell us the link once more. Cynthia W. Mueller College Station, TX >>> claudesweet@cox.net 9/17/04 2:59:30 PM >>> http://www.bulbs.com has several citations that relate to this question. Use the search engine and enter "ethylene gas and its effects" to locate the articles. The amounts of ethylene gas that will trigger a response can be as low as 10 parts per million to trigger the ripening process of kiwifruit stored at 33 degrees F. It is important to know the source of the ethylene - Apples are a high producer of ethylene - the temperature, and the minimum length of exposure the target produce or bulb has to the gas. This site is a profession organization of Dutch growers and should be reliable. Claude Sweet IntarsiaCo@aol.com wrote: >In a message dated 9/17/2004 2:21:21 PM Eastern Daylight Time, jglatt@ptd.net >writes: >According to information I received from a researcher in Holland, the amount >of ethylene gas given off by fruit such as apples is relatively small > >Judy: >Did your researcher provide any hard figures? I have seen claims of apples >producing anywhere from 30 to 200 ppm when stored in the fruit or vegetable >crisper of a home refrigerator. Variables might include "ripeness" of the apple, >variety, temperature and ventilation. > >Mark Mazer >USDA Zone 5 >Giant Schnauzer Rescue >_______________________________________________ >pbs mailing list >pbs@lists.ibiblio.org >http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php > > > _______________________________________________ pbs mailing list pbs@lists.ibiblio.org http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php From johnbryan@worldnet.att.net Fri Sep 17 18:11:29 2004 Message-Id: <414B6063.327CD646@worldnet.att.net> From: John Bryan Subject: refrigerators, bulbs, & ethylene gas Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2004 15:08:35 -0700 Dear Judy; From personal experience, I can tell you that tulips placed in the vegetable drawers of a fridge, with apples also in the same fridge, just did not perform well. From the same batch of bulbs, i.e. same amount of time in the fridge, but without apples, performed well. If it was not the ethylene gas, what could it have been. Yes there are many myths about, but I do not think this is one. Do different cultivars of apples give off differing amounts of gas? Are some cultivars of tulips not subject to the problem? I am afraid I would be skeptical about the comments of one bulb researcher was this a controlled experiment, a research project? Was the length of time documented? Where were the results published? You refer to facts, can you give me more information on this as it is important for those living in warmer climes where we are obliged to cool the bulbs. Cheers, John E. Bryan Judy Glattstein wrote: > > Myth busters of the world, unite! This has been an accepted piece of garden > lore for at least as long as I've been gardening. However, it seems we have > been worrying needlessly. > > According to information I received from a researcher in Holland, the amount > of ethylene gas given off by fruit such as apples is relatively small. > Further, refrigerator temperatures of 38° to 42° Fahrenheit reduces the > production of ethylene gas, and also slows the bulbs' metabolism, further > limiting the influence of the gas in the flower embryo within the bulbs. He > seemed to think that the "ethylene gas blights bulbs' flowers" is just not > supported by the facts. > > I discuss this at somewhat greater length/ more detail in "Bulbs for Garden > Habitats" which will, God willing and the creeks don't rise, be released by > Timber Press in May 2005. > > Judy in New Jersey where the creek, uninfluenced by hurricanes, has not yet > risen. > > _______________________________________________ > pbs mailing list > pbs@lists.ibiblio.org > http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php From susanann@sbcglobal.net Fri Sep 17 18:18:11 2004 Message-Id: From: Susan Hayek Subject: refrigerators, bulbs, & ethylene gas Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2004 15:18:37 -0700 http://www.aboutproduce.com/faq/ethylene.html Might check this out. >Myth busters of the world, unite! This has been an accepted piece of garden >lore for at least as long as I've been gardening. However, it seems we have >been worrying needlessly. > >According to information I received from a researcher in Holland, the amount >of ethylene gas given off by fruit such as apples is relatively small. >Further, refrigerator temperatures of 38° to 42° Fahrenheit reduces the >production of ethylene gas, and also slows the bulbs' metabolism, further >limiting the influence of the gas in the flower embryo within the bulbs. He >seemed to think that the "ethylene gas blights bulbs' flowers" is just not >supported by the facts. > >I discuss this at somewhat greater length/ more detail in "Bulbs for Garden >Habitats" which will, God willing and the creeks don't rise, be released by >Timber Press in May 2005. > >Judy in New Jersey where the creek, uninfluenced by hurricanes, has not yet >risen. -- susan, who is..... owned by Jasper & Schubert the Standard Poodles, Gracie the Rhodesian, Pup-Quiz the Basenji and their Basenji brother, Jones.... on the North Coast of CA, USA susanann@sbcglobal.net, copyright 2004 From claudesweet@cox.net Fri Sep 17 18:58:06 2004 Message-Id: <414B6BEF.9000309@cox.net> From: Claude Sweet Subject: refrigerators, bulbs, & ethylene gas Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2004 15:57:51 -0700 The link to one of the articles is http://www.bulb.com/spring/ethylene.asp http://www.bulb.com/ is the main web page. The page has a search engine in the lower right hand corner. I hope this helps. Claude Cynthia Mueller wrote: >Dear Claude, > >When I clicked on this link, it went to a hyperstore for light >bulbs....tell us the link once more. > >Cynthia W. Mueller >College Station, TX > > > >>>>claudesweet@cox.net 9/17/04 2:59:30 PM >>> >>>> >>>> >http://www.bulbs.com has several citations that relate to this >question. > >Use the search engine and enter "ethylene gas and its effects" to >locate >the articles. > >The amounts of ethylene gas that will trigger a response can be as low > >as 10 parts per million to trigger the ripening process of kiwifruit >stored at 33 degrees F. > >It is important to know the source of the ethylene - Apples are a high > >producer of ethylene - the temperature, and the minimum length of >exposure the target produce or bulb has to the gas. > >This site is a profession organization of Dutch growers and should be >reliable. > >Claude Sweet > > > > > From janemcgary@earthlink.net Fri Sep 17 19:53:49 2004 Message-Id: <5.2.1.1.0.20040917164537.011b99d0@mail.earthlink.net> From: Jane McGary Subject: Alstroemeria key Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2004 16:52:48 -0700 I'm translating the key in Bayer's "The Genus Alstroemeria in Chile," a copy of which Roy Sachs kindly lent me. I'll be glad to share the result when it's done. I hope some member of this forum who knows both German and plants, the former at least better than I do, can help me with a couple of questions. 1. What does the word "Stielteller" mean? It is used in a compound describing the shape of a flower. I know "Stiel" and "Teller," but not the compound. 2. Is the word "rot" 'red' used in German for a particular type of red, at least in relation to flowers? No alstroemerias are spectrum red, but there are many orange-reds and purple-reds. Bayer uses the compounds "hellrot" 'light red' and "blassrot" 'pale red'. Can you suggest familiar flowers that would be described by these terms? Thanks in advance, Jane McGary From wlp@Radar-Sci.Jpl.Nasa.Gov Fri Sep 17 20:15:05 2004 Message-Id: From: Lee Poulsen Subject: Worsleya bloom color Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2004 17:14:57 -0700 If you go to the Worsleya group website and click on Photos, there are a number of different clones shown there. There is quite some variation in the shades of color as well as form of the various clones. Since mine are the only ones I've seen in real life, and the photos I uploaded are fairly accurate (the color is quite similar to the color of Griffinia; however, the Griffinia color is much smoother and concentrated IMO), I can't say how they compare colorwise to anyone else's. I know that the Worsleya list owner who has seen several different clones in flower thinks that the clone that is grown in New Zealand is one of the prettiest (Bill Dijk, Tony Palmer, and Terry Hatch grow it), whereas what he calls the Cosh clone is one of the least pretty but is the most prolific off-setter of baby bulbs, so it is much more common (at least in Australia). So I wouldn't be surprised if Bill's are bluer than mine. --Lee Poulsen Pasadena area, California, USDA Zone 9-10 On Sep 17, 2004, at 2:19 PM, piaba wrote: > i meant to ask about the color of the flowers. bill > dijk's photo shows a much bluer flower than lee > poulsen's. i assume this plant has flowers that are > more purple-lavender than blue-lavender? > > ===== > tsuh yang From JFlintoff@aol.com Fri Sep 17 22:55:01 2004 Message-Id: From: JFlintoff@aol.com Subject: {Pbs}Alstroemeria key Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2004 22:54:54 EDT Jane I think Stielkeller refers to a rotate flower i.e. a flower consisting of a tube supporting a flattened corolla. Rot is just generic "red" that covers a huge range of hues. Jerry Vashon Island,Washington,USA Zone 8 From msittner@mcn.org Sat Sep 18 02:10:22 2004 Message-Id: <4.2.2.20040917224437.01e0ddd0@mail.mcn.org> From: Mary Sue Ittner Subject: Worsleya Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2004 23:08:36 -0700 Dear Jim, So Jim why does Veronica Read prefer the name W. rayneri? Tsuh Yang says the correct name is Hippeastrum procerum. But the Worsleya list Lee referred to calls itself Worsleya procera which implies that at least the leader of the group or owner of the list is accepting the changed name. For those of us who are not on that list and not growing this plant and therefore not likely to join that list (and therefore unable to look at the pictures that are available to members only) will one of you who is a member tell us whether there is general agreement by those members about the name? Lee what are you calling your plant? Bill (Dijk) what do you call yours? The copied message from Alan Meerow ("Mabberly also needs to read Systematic Botany where the issue of whether Worsleya is closely related to Hippeastrum was (hopefully) put to rest by my and co-workers DNA studies!") is not helpful to those of us who have not read Systematic Botany and do not therefore know what the results of the DNA studies are. Can anyone please explain? If there is disagreement about this could we hear what each side is saying? Hoping to hear what people think and know about this, Mary Sue From susanann@sbcglobal.net Sat Sep 18 02:21:01 2004 Message-Id: From: Susan Hayek Subject: www.bulb.com Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2004 23:21:29 -0700 At 12:59 PM -0700 9/17/04, Claude Sweet wrote: >http://www.bulbs.com has several citations that relate to this question. **I couldn't figure out why I was ending up at the light bulb site, either. http://www.bulb.com , 'bulb' not 'bulbs' .com -- susan, who is..... owned by Jasper & Schubert the Standard Poodles, Gracie the Rhodesian, Pup-Quiz the Basenji and their Basenji brother, Jones.... on the North Coast of CA, USA Zone 9 susanann@sbcglobal.net, copyright 2004 From Jamievande@freenet.de Sat Sep 18 05:20:31 2004 Message-Id: <002d01c49d61$0e625390$6502a8c0@Jamie2> From: "Jamie" Subject: Alstroemeria key Date: Sat, 18 Sep 2004 11:22:43 +0200 Jane, I know STIELTELLER only from the description of a blossom, where it refers to an open-formed, flat blossom, much like a Tulipa or Calochortus opened fully. A plate-formed blossom on a stem top! I think the term is a bit archaic, as I've only seen it used once or twice as a generic. As to ROT, it is generic. In German, the colour descriptions are a bit different; ROSA is pale pink, PINK is deep pink (in the purple range). Many colours that are perceived as red are quite warm. I think that BLASSROT would be a warm, medium pink to most, while HELLROT would be like cadmium pale, in artists colours, sort of scarlet, like a Pelargonium. DUNKELROT would be like a very ripe tomato, while KIRSCHROT would be a deep, cold, crimson. Hope this helps a bit, Jamie V. Cologne ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jane McGary" To: "Pacific Bulb Society" Sent: Saturday, September 18, 2004 1:52 AM Subject: [pbs] Alstroemeria key > I'm translating the key in Bayer's "The Genus Alstroemeria in Chile," a > copy of which Roy Sachs kindly lent me. I'll be glad to share the result > when it's done. I hope some member of this forum who knows both German and > plants, the former at least better than I do, can help me with a couple of > questions. > > 1. What does the word "Stielteller" mean? It is used in a compound > describing the shape of a flower. I know "Stiel" and "Teller," but not the > compound. > > 2. Is the word "rot" 'red' used in German for a particular type of red, at > least in relation to flowers? No alstroemerias are spectrum red, but there > are many orange-reds and purple-reds. Bayer uses the compounds "hellrot" > 'light red' and "blassrot" 'pale red'. Can you suggest familiar flowers > that would be described by these terms? > > Thanks in advance, > Jane McGary > > > _______________________________________________ > pbs mailing list > pbs@lists.ibiblio.org > http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php > From Jamievande@freenet.de Sat Sep 18 06:34:54 2004 Message-Id: <008101c49d6b$72775060$6502a8c0@Jamie2> From: "Jamie" Subject: Fw: [pbs] Alstroemeria key Date: Sat, 18 Sep 2004 12:37:07 +0200 Jane, the post bounced back from PBS, so I'm trying again, J. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jamie" To: "Pacific Bulb Society" Sent: Saturday, September 18, 2004 11:22 AM Subject: Re: [pbs] Alstroemeria key > Jane, > > I know STIELTELLER only from the description of a blossom, where it refers > to an open-formed, flat blossom, much like a Tulipa or Calochortus opened > fully. A plate-formed blossom on a stem top! I think the term is a bit > archaic, as I've only seen it used once or twice as a generic. > > As to ROT, it is generic. In German, the colour descriptions are a bit > different; ROSA is pale pink, PINK is deep pink (in the purple range). Many > colours that are perceived as red are quite warm. I think that BLASSROT > would be a warm, medium pink to most, while HELLROT would be like cadmium > pale, in artists colours, sort of scarlet, like a Pelargonium. DUNKELROT > would be like a very ripe tomato, while KIRSCHROT would be a deep, cold, > crimson. > > Hope this helps a bit, > > Jamie V. > Cologne > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Jane McGary" > To: "Pacific Bulb Society" > Sent: Saturday, September 18, 2004 1:52 AM > Subject: [pbs] Alstroemeria key > > > > I'm translating the key in Bayer's "The Genus Alstroemeria in Chile," a > > copy of which Roy Sachs kindly lent me. I'll be glad to share the result > > when it's done. I hope some member of this forum who knows both German and > > plants, the former at least better than I do, can help me with a couple of > > questions. > > > > 1. What does the word "Stielteller" mean? It is used in a compound > > describing the shape of a flower. I know "Stiel" and "Teller," but not the > > compound. > > > > 2. Is the word "rot" 'red' used in German for a particular type of red, at > > least in relation to flowers? No alstroemerias are spectrum red, but there > > are many orange-reds and purple-reds. Bayer uses the compounds "hellrot" > > 'light red' and "blassrot" 'pale red'. Can you suggest familiar flowers > > that would be described by these terms? > > > > Thanks in advance, > > Jane McGary > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > pbs mailing list > > pbs@lists.ibiblio.org > > http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php > > > From dells@voicenet.com Sat Sep 18 07:14:43 2004 Message-Id: From: Dell Sherk Subject: Pacific BX 75 Date: Sat, 18 Sep 2004 07:18:02 -0400 Dear All, The items listed below have been donated by people from all over the world, to be shared. If you are interested in obtaining some of them, please email me PRIVATELY at . Include "BX 75" in the subject line. Specify the NUMBERS of the items which you would like; do not specify quantities. It is a good idea to include your snail mail address too, in case I don't already have it. Availability is based on a first come, first served system. When you receive your seeds/bulbs you will find, included with them, a statement of how much money (cash or check) you should send the PBS treasurer to defray our costs for packing and first-class postage. Some of you are members of the PBS discussion forum but not members of the Pacific Bulb Society. THIS BX OFFERING IS AVAILABLE ONLY TO MEMBERS OF THE PBS. Consider joining the PBS so that you can take advantage of future offers such as this. Go to our website: . Or contact me at dells@voicenet.com If you would like to donate seeds or bulbs/corms to the PBS, please send CLEAN, clearly labeled material to: Dell Sherk, PO Box 224, Holicong, PA, 18928, USA. Donors will receive credit on the BX for the cost of postage for their donations. PLEASE NOTE: I WILL REPLY TO YOU WITHIN 24 HRS OF MY RECEIPT OF YOUR ORDER.. IF YOU DO NOT HEAR FROM ME, TRY AGAIN !! From Lee Poulsen: SEED: 1. Habranthus andersonii 2. Zephyranthes sp.? 3. Zephyranthes verecunda 4. Zephyranthes primulina 5. Romulea eximia 6. Veltheimia bracteata 7. Albuca fragrans 8. Tecophilaea cyanocrocus 'Leichtlinii' 9. Herbertia lahue 10. Albuca spiralis From Dell Sherk: 11. Seed of Cyrtanthus o'brienii x C. mackenii yellow, selfed. Flowers are a lighter shade of reddish orange than the o'brienii parent. From Mary Sue Ittner: SEED: 11. Cyclamen cilicum 12. Lilium maritimum 13. Dierama pendulum Thank you, Lee and Mary Sue !! Best wishes, Dell --Dell Sherk, Director, Pacific BX From jwaddick@kc.rr.com Sat Sep 18 09:25:59 2004 Message-Id: From: James Waddick Subject: Worsleya Date: Sat, 18 Sep 2004 08:25:47 -0500 >Dear Jim, > >So Jim why does Veronica Read prefer the name W. rayneri? .... >Mary Sue Dear Mary Sue; I am no expert here, but this makes sense if true: According to Veronica Read: Originally described as Amaryllis gigantea, changed to Amaryllis procera, then Hipp. procerum Since the name Hipp. procerum was already applied to another plant (which later became known as Crinum erubescens), that name is unavailable for this plant. ....changed to W. rayneri in honor of Arthington Worsley (1861-1943 who travelled extensively in S. Amer.) and John Rayner (who obtained flowers of the plant in 1870). Key differences from Hippeastrum: Florets enclosed by 4 spathes D-shaped seeds of variable thickness Embryo almost fills seed Seed pods with thick fleshy walls Seeds too heavy for wind dispersal (7.5 grams/100) Bulb neck up to 36 in. Leaves hand vertically x = 21 (incompatible with other members of the Amaryllidaceae) With apologies to Veronica. Just reporting from her new book. Jim W. -- Dr. James W. Waddick Near KCI Airport Kansas City Missouri 64152-2711 USA Ph. 816-746-1949 Zone 5 Record low -23F Summer 100F + From msittner@mcn.org Sat Sep 18 10:54:42 2004 Message-Id: <4.2.2.20040918074217.00b8cc60@mail.mcn.org> From: Mary Sue Ittner Subject: About Pacific BX 75 Date: Sat, 18 Sep 2004 07:52:56 -0700 Hi, Just a couple of comments on these two: 12. Lilium maritimum 13. Dierama pendulum Lilium maritimum is a rare lily found in the North Coast Ranges of California (coastal prairies, scrub, gaps in the forest.) It is reported to be a bit difficult to grow, but since it is native to where I live I have not had that problem. It is often seen growing in the verges where it would get extra runoff water from the road and grows in areas with a lot of winter rainfall and moderate summers. I have had good luck starting seeds in fall. Dierama pendulum (at least I think this is what this is) had naturalized in my garden. If you live in a Mediterranean climate I think this is the best one to grow as it does just fine for me with little summer water. Since it comes up all over my garden without my planting it, I'd think it could be direct seeded and then you wouldn't have to worry about transplanting. Thanks to Dell for his BX offerings and efficient service. I just mailed him a box a few days ago and he is already offering something from it. Mary Sue From msittner@mcn.org Sat Sep 18 11:18:16 2004 Message-Id: <4.2.2.20040918075343.01e2a6a0@mail.mcn.org> From: Mary Sue Ittner Subject: Bounced Messages Date: Sat, 18 Sep 2004 08:12:53 -0700 Dear All, In this world of increasing spam more and more internet providers are devising ways to block messages they perceive as spam. If you find that you are not getting messages from the list anymore you can check in the archives to see if it is just slow and no one is posting: http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/pbslist If there are posts and you aren't getting them, they may be blocked on your end. When messages are bouncing sometimes Arnold, Jen, and I get a notice of that and sometimes the individual who wrote the message to the PBS list gets a notice. If the message is sitting in your spam filter we may not know that the message is not going through however. Sometimes after a number of bounces we administrators get a note that your email account has been disabled. Usually when that happens it is because a mail box is full, so we can't contact that person either. Ibiblio sends a message out periodically to a disabled account to try to get through, but after a number of those messages bounce, that email address is unsubscribed. I will occasionally be changing people's mail delivery to digest or individual messages when there seems to be a problem to see if this will help and will try to write anyone I have changed if I think my message to them can be delivered. The bounce message that Jaime referred to today was not a notice that his message had bounced to the list, but a message that his message had bounced to a person. I have written that person and switched that account to the digest so hopefully we can sort it out. If you are having problems write me or Arnold, Arnold@nj.rr.com , and we will do our best to try to sort it out. Mary Sue PBS List Administrator From jshields104@insightbb.com Sat Sep 18 11:14:26 2004 Message-Id: <5.1.0.14.2.20040918095952.01eaa398@pop.indy.net> From: "J.E. Shields" Subject: Worsleya Date: Sat, 18 Sep 2004 10:14:23 -0500 Hi all, A web search turned up the web site http://www.sysbot.org/ and an abstract of a publication Systematic Botany: Vol. 25, No. 4, pp. 708–726 (2000) "Phylogeny of the American Amaryllidaceae based on nrDNA ITS sequences" Alan W. Meerow, Charles L. Guy, Qin-Bao Li, and Si-Lin Yang Which I can only read as the abstract, since I don't subscribe to that journal. Worsleya is not mentioned in the abstract. Alan does note in the abstract that "Within the hippeastroid clade, the tribe Griffineae is resolved as sister to the rest of Hippeastreae. " which suggests that Hippeastrum is not an acceptable genus name for what we refer to as Worsleya rayneri or procerum. Other publications from Alan have put Worsleya and Griffinia in the tribe Griffineae, as far as I can recall at the moment. See the link at the bottom of the web page http://www.shieldsgardens.com/amaryllids/amaryllidaceae.html Based on the DNA work, it appears that there is no way this species can be included in the genus Hippeastrum. We can safely use either Worsleya rayneri or Worsleya procerum to refer to this plant without fear of being misunderstood. Jim Shields ************************************************* Jim Shields USDA Zone 5 Shields Gardens, Ltd. P.O. Box 92 WWW: http://www.shieldsgardens.com/ Westfield, Indiana 46074, USA Tel. ++1-317-867-3344 or toll-free 1-866-449-3344 in USA From janemcgary@earthlink.net Sat Sep 18 21:41:34 2004 Message-Id: <5.2.1.1.0.20040918090705.0120d6a8@mail.earthlink.net> From: Jane McGary Subject: Color terms (was Alstroemeria key) Date: Sat, 18 Sep 2004 09:26:29 -0700 Many thanks to Jamie Vande for elucidating a section of German color terminology: >As to ROT, it is generic. In German, the colour descriptions are a bit >different; ROSA is pale pink, PINK is deep pink (in the purple range). Many >colours that are perceived as red are quite warm. I think that BLASSROT >would be a warm, medium pink to most, while HELLROT would be like cadmium >pale, in artists colours, sort of scarlet, like a Pelargonium. DUNKELROT >would be like a very ripe tomato, while KIRSCHROT would be a deep, cold, >crimson. This is the kind of information one never gets from classroom language study or reading works on history and other non-artistic subjects. Color terminology is such a complex subject across languages that it forms a special area of study for linguists. For example, a wide set of languages around the world don't distinguish 'blue' from 'green'. 'Red' is another area where there is a good deal of complexity. Linguists have also studied what kinds of distinctions different groups of people within a language community make; for example, women tend to use more different color terms than men do (though male horticulturists and artists would know more than the average woman, of course). I wonder if a multilingual horticultural color term chart would be useful to many people? I could probably design a questionnaire on which to base one, but it would require a sample of a certain size (at least ten respondents, I think) for each language. It would be interesting just to see, within a language, what different people call the color of a certain flower. The present discussion related to Worsleya offers an example: Is it 'blue'? I think "blue" is used more loosely in English than the equivalent color terms in some other European languages -- that is, it seems to extend more into the purple range in English. Or is that just horticultural wishful thinking? The existence of widely grown clones and species with little color variation offers gardeners an opportunity to define what they call a color from samples other than expensive color charts (which may not reproduce well over the Internet). Thus, you could elicit your local color term for 'yellow' (the single quotes indicate a gloss, or meaning; double quotes are a word-as-word) by referring to Sternbergia lutea. 'Yellow' is easy; what flowers are 'purple', though? This subject is of great practical interest to me as an editor of botanical and horticultural writing. I tend to cringe a little, for instance, when an author describes a flower as "mauve," one of the most ill-defined English color terms. Jane McGary Northwestern Oregon, USA From piabinha@yahoo.com Sat Sep 18 16:48:38 2004 Message-Id: <20040918204837.36550.qmail@web51908.mail.yahoo.com> From: piaba Subject: Worsleya Date: Sat, 18 Sep 2004 13:48:37 -0700 (PDT) > Tsuh Yang says > the correct name is Hippeastrum procerum. dear MJ and everybody, why would you ever take anything i say as the gospel truth???? :-) i saw the name H. procerum online or some article i read and i assumed somebody had synonymized Worsleya under Hippeastrum. i assume some people view it as a Hippesatrum but the question is not settled. sorry for my mistake. ===== tsuh yang __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From scamp@earthlink.net Sat Sep 18 17:41:26 2004 Message-Id: <410-220049618214132194@earthlink.net> From: "Christine Council" Subject: Primaverina Date: Sat, 18 Sep 2004 17:41:32 -0400 Hello all: I have some questions about bulbs, perhaps I haven't understood what was being said but please help me any how. Is it ok to leave plants in the flower pots and wait for them to bloom next season or should I cut the plants back and dig up the bulbs? Will I get bulbs if I plant by seed or will I continue to get seeds from most plants? Don't laugh, I am really trying. I did remove some bulbs from a plant because I thought it was too large. I washed the bulbs with tepid water, dried them off and put them in the fridge; I hope I did the right thing. I appreciate all the help I have received so far, I am like the beginner cook; my heart is in the right place. Thanks, Chris > [Original Message] > From: Mary Sue Ittner > To: Pacific Bulb Society > Date: 9/9/2004 10:54:49 PM > Subject: [pbs] Primaverina > > Hi All, > > I've been very preoccupied potting up bulbs these days. Like Paul Tyerman I > have been starting a lot of seeds every year and my husband recently > commented that he thought I was maxed out for room for all I grow. I know > he is right. I've been glancing through the messages, but haven't felt I > had time to respond to anything, but Jim McKenney has at last made me want > to write. > > Reading Jim McKenney's remarks about bulbs appearing in the fall when his > garden is at its peak reminds me of how different our growing conditions > are on this pbs list. Like Angelo it has been a long time since we've had > rain here, May for us. Everything is bone dry and dusty and the fire danger > is high. Gardens are asleep just waiting for the wake up call with the > first rains. Some of the bulbs are shooting out and even blooming, but they > aren't going to last very long since we have been having a really hot spell > and everything is so dry. I think of this time as the start of the garden > season too and thought what Jim wrote was really poetic. I am really hooked > on seeing signs of growth as the foliage emerges and spikes of flowers too. > Our California natives mostly won't start appearing until October to March, > but I grow South African bulbs and some of them are making an appearance > now. There are some summer rainfall species that bloom at the end of their > season in bloom at the moment: Nerines, Tritonia disticha, and some > Gladiolus. Today my old standby, Calydorea amabilis, one of the longest > blooming bulbs I grow had four flowers and there was a nice flower on > Cypella coelestis. I think it would like a hotter summer and I've only had > a handful of flowers, but it is such a stunning thing when it bloom. No > doubt it has been liking our recent weather. The Zephyranthes candida, the > same one Jay shared with so many, has been really nice the last couple of > years. It likes getting watered every day in the pot with our lemon tree > which is on drip irrigation. It also doesn't seem to mind at all getting > high nitrogen fertilizer that the lemon tree requires. So much for common > wisdom. > > The first of the season winter rainfall Gladiolus have been blooming too. > One species is finished; G. carmineus has been blooming all over the > garden; and many others are spiking. Moraea polystachya is emerging and > will be in bloom soon and two species of winter growing Oxalis are already > blooming and others sprouting. Some of the summer growing Oxalis Uli has > shared with me are still blooming, especially the wonderful one from > Ecuador. The Cyclamen are appearing, always a thrill. Since our gardens are > not at their best at the moment, I find the fall and the end of summer > blooming bulbs give me a lift. They don't have so much to compete with so > they are very special. > > I wish that Scilla scilloides that I've been growing from seed for a number > of years now would bloom so I could decide whether or not I like it. If it > is as unattractive as Jim says, I'll be sorry I wasted the summer water on it. > > A number of years ago I won some Bravoa geminiflora at a California > Horitcultural Society auction being grown by someone with hot summers. It > bloomed very nicely the first year, but hasn't since. This year it looks > the best it has since I got it, but still no blooms. I'm wondering if it > isn't happy with my temperatures. Does anyone on our list grow it? > > No one has added any pictures to the wiki in a week, a new record. I have a > number of pictures to add and a new member from Australia sent me some > pictures too, so will try to find the time to get them processed and up. > > Mary Sue > > > > > Mary Sue Ittner > California's North Coast > Wet mild winters with occasional frost > Dry mild summers > > _______________________________________________ > pbs mailing list > pbs@lists.ibiblio.org > http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php From pollards@adelphia.net Sat Sep 18 18:16:47 2004 Message-Id: <20040918221646.HEH9204.mta10.adelphia.net@mail.adelphia.net> From: Subject: Calochortus Society Date: Sat, 18 Sep 2004 18:16:46 -0400 Dear all, Does anyone have a phone number or e-mail address for the Calochortus Society/Georgie Robinett? I moved again recently and have been communicating with her via snail mail with regards to address changes and membership status. Thanks! Shawn Pollard Yuma, AZ From floralartistry2000@yahoo.com Sat Sep 18 18:50:12 2004 Message-Id: <20040918225012.71975.qmail@web50104.mail.yahoo.com> From: Floral Architecture Subject: Worsleya Date: Sat, 18 Sep 2004 15:50:12 -0700 (PDT) My experience for naming the plants is a bit varied. It depends on who I am talking to. In regards to the customs office in Brasil, when I am importing them, I need to have them labeled as Hippeastrum procerum (Worsleya rayneri). The reason being that the Brasilian custom officers still call them Hippeastrum but US customs needs to recognize them as Worsleya. As long as I have both names on the documentation, it is not a problem. ===== John Ingram in L.A., CA. www.floralarchitecture.com check it out Floralartistry2000@yahoo.com 310.709.1613 (cell, west coast time, please call accordingly. Thank you) From rarebulbs@earthlink.net Sat Sep 18 22:22:37 2004 Message-Id: <000e01c49def$83686ce0$b7def7a5@DJ9SK221> From: "diana chapman" Subject: Calochortus Society Date: Sat, 18 Sep 2004 19:22:28 -0700 Hi Shawn: As of January, I am taking over the Calochortus Society. Georgie has moved to Phoenix, and felt it was time to hand it over to someone else. I don't actually have the membership list yet, but she will undoubtedly forward it to me after the next issue (which she will be putting out). Diana Chapman Telos Rare Bulbs ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Saturday, September 18, 2004 3:16 PM Subject: [pbs] Calochortus Society > Dear all, > > Does anyone have a phone number or e-mail address for the > Calochortus Society/Georgie Robinett? I moved again recently > and have been communicating with her via snail mail with regards > to address changes and membership status. > > Thanks! > > Shawn Pollard > Yuma, AZ > > _______________________________________________ > pbs mailing list > pbs@lists.ibiblio.org > http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php From msittner@mcn.org Sat Sep 18 22:50:33 2004 Message-Id: <4.2.2.20040918193744.01e10840@mail.mcn.org> From: Mary Sue Ittner Subject: Color terms (was Alstroemeria key) Date: Sat, 18 Sep 2004 19:48:45 -0700 Dear Jane, We've done some favorite colored bulbs topic of the week this year and it has been interesting that some of the colors overlap. A couple of plants were selected by different people as representing different colors. This could be a perceptual thing or perhaps the same species does show variation in the color of the flowers. I still want to do purple and blue favorites (which I definitely thinK are different). There are some blue flowers and some flowers that photograph blue with a digital camera that are really purple. At least I don't think all those gorgeous blue Crocuses probably are purple. Correct me if I am wrong. I find it interesting that the purple flowers turn out blue since before digital so often blue flowers photographed pink. I find it really hard often to capture purple with our digital camera. Many of the Babiana pictures I took last year I never added to the wiki, because I couldn't capture the right color. Perhaps we could do a five favorite purple bulbs as a topic of the week and then in a couple weeks do blue and see what people come up with. Mary Sue At 09:26 AM 9/18/04 -0700, you wrote: >Many thanks to Jamie Vande for elucidating a section of German color >terminology: > >As to ROT, it is generic. In German, the colour descriptions are a bit >>different; ROSA is pale pink, PINK is deep pink (in the purple range). Many >>colours that are perceived as red are quite warm. I think that BLASSROT >>would be a warm, medium pink to most, while HELLROT would be like cadmium >>pale, in artists colours, sort of scarlet, like a Pelargonium. DUNKELROT >>would be like a very ripe tomato, while KIRSCHROT would be a deep, cold, >>crimson. > >This is the kind of information one never gets from classroom language >study or reading works on history and other non-artistic subjects. Color >terminology is such a complex subject across languages that it forms a >special area of study for linguists. For example, a wide set of languages >around the world don't distinguish 'blue' from 'green'. 'Red' is another >area where there is a good deal of complexity. Linguists have also studied >what kinds of distinctions different groups of people within a language >community make; for example, women tend to use more different color terms >than men do (though male horticulturists and artists would know more than >the average woman, of course). > >I wonder if a multilingual horticultural color term chart would be useful >to many people? I could probably design a questionnaire on which to base >one, but it would require a sample of a certain size (at least ten >respondents, I think) for each language. It would be interesting just to >see, within a language, what different people call the color of a certain >flower. The present discussion related to Worsleya offers an example: Is >it 'blue'? I think "blue" is used more loosely in English than the >equivalent color terms in some other European languages -- that is, it >seems to extend more into the purple range in English. Or is that just >horticultural wishful thinking? > >The existence of widely grown clones and species with little color >variation offers gardeners an opportunity to define what they call a color >from samples other than expensive color charts (which may not reproduce >well over the Internet). Thus, you could elicit your local color term for >'yellow' (the single quotes indicate a gloss, or meaning; double quotes >are a word-as-word) by referring to Sternbergia lutea. 'Yellow' is easy; >what flowers are 'purple', though? > >This subject is of great practical interest to me as an editor of >botanical and horticultural writing. I tend to cringe a little, for >instance, when an author describes a flower as "mauve," one of the most >ill-defined English color terms. > >Jane McGary >Northwestern Oregon, USA > > >_______________________________________________ >pbs mailing list >pbs@lists.ibiblio.org >http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php From paige@hillkeep.ca Sun Sep 19 00:00:38 2004 Message-Id: From: "Pacific Rim" Subject: Fw: [pbs] Color terms Date: Sat, 18 Sep 2004 21:01:28 -0700 Jane McGary wrote: > I wonder if a multilingual horticultural color term chart would be useful > to many people? I can't say that it would be useful to me across the board -- I read only a few languages -- but it would be stimulating to see how many other languages and cultures describe colors. William Stearn, in his book, Botanical Latin, presents a lot of Latin color terms with English equivalents -- useful in principle for all of us who refer to the Latin names of plants, though it is not clear to me that contemporary plant descriptions written in Latin are Stearnly latinate;even dead languages evolve, it seems. Nonetheless perhaps the Stearn list of plant colors could be used as a start. Color and language, both, fascinate me. Color: The primary colors from ground pigments differ from the primary colors of light; Jane, as both a photographer and an editor of printed documents, might wish to expand on this. Or not. I am jumping in to this conversation with no hope of further participation for several days. Language: It appears from encounters I've had, and texts that I've read, that blue and red are virtually one in Chinese. We divide the spectrum in different ways. Language: I frequently smile on noticing the variance, in English, of certain color descriptions from the things they purport to refer to. Flesh pink -- is not the pink of any human but a lurid, Band-aid, Barbie-doll medium cadmium orange + white Cerise (cherry) -- is more like printer's violet Violet -- is mauve with perhaps a little black in it Peach -- describes no earthly peach, but Flesh pink + white Apricot ditto. Pistachio -- is a softer, more greyed green than the bright yellow-green of the nut And so on. In haste, Paige Woodward on top of Chilliwack Mountain in southwest British Columbia Canada wet Zone 6 www.hillkeep.ca paige@hillkeep.ca From susanann@sbcglobal.net Sun Sep 19 00:14:34 2004 Message-Id: From: Susan Hayek Subject: Fw: [pbs] Color terms Date: Sat, 18 Sep 2004 21:15:02 -0700 >Color and language, both, fascinate me. **Same here. >Language: It appears from encounters I've had, and texts that I've read, >that blue and red are virtually one in Chinese. We divide the spectrum in >different ways. **And I believe, when I was teaching spec ed, somewhere I had a workshop on cultural differences/languages and learned that in some native American cultures there was only one word which meant warm colors and one word for cool. "Warm" and "cool", of course, may mean different things in different language/cultures. :-) -- susan, who is..... owned by Jasper & Schubert the Standard Poodles, Gracie the Rhodesian, Pup-Quiz the Basenji and their Basenji brother, Jones.... on the North Coast of CA, USA Zone 9 susanann@sbcglobal.net, copyright 2004 From samclan@redshift.com Sun Sep 19 00:38:19 2004 Message-Id: <414D0E2F.1030502@redshift.com> From: Shirley Meneice Subject: Fw: [pbs] Color terms Date: Sat, 18 Sep 2004 21:42:23 -0700 What about the RHS color charts? They have been more helpful to me than any verbal descriptions. Shirley Meneice Pacific Rim wrote: >Jane McGary wrote: > > > >>I wonder if a multilingual horticultural color term chart would be useful >>to many people? >> >> > >I can't say that it would be useful to me across the board -- I read only a >few languages -- but it would be stimulating to see how many other languages >and cultures describe colors. > >William Stearn, in his book, Botanical Latin, presents a lot of Latin color >terms with English equivalents -- useful in principle for all of us who >refer to the Latin names of plants, though it is not clear to me that >contemporary plant descriptions written in Latin are Stearnly latinate;even >dead languages evolve, it seems. Nonetheless perhaps the Stearn list of >plant colors could be used as a start. > >Color and language, both, fascinate me. > >Color: The primary colors from ground pigments differ from the primary >colors of light; Jane, as both a photographer and an editor of printed >documents, might wish to expand on this. Or not. I am jumping in to this >conversation with no hope of further participation for several days. > >Language: It appears from encounters I've had, and texts that I've read, >that blue and red are virtually one in Chinese. We divide the spectrum in >different ways. > >Language: I frequently smile on noticing the variance, in English, of >certain color descriptions from the things they purport to refer to. > >Flesh pink -- is not the pink of any human but a lurid, Band-aid, >Barbie-doll medium cadmium orange + white > >Cerise (cherry) -- is more like printer's violet > >Violet -- is mauve with perhaps a little black in it > >Peach -- describes no earthly peach, but Flesh pink + white > >Apricot ditto. > >Pistachio -- is a softer, more greyed green than the bright yellow-green of >the nut > >And so on. > >In haste, > >Paige Woodward >on top of Chilliwack Mountain >in southwest British Columbia >Canada >wet Zone 6 >www.hillkeep.ca >paige@hillkeep.ca > > > > >_______________________________________________ >pbs mailing list >pbs@lists.ibiblio.org >http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php > > > > From wpoulsen@pacbell.net Sun Sep 19 01:20:13 2004 Message-Id: <93EDFC00-09FB-11D9-9774-0003936313F6@pacbell.net> From: Lee Poulsen Subject: Color terms Date: Sat, 18 Sep 2004 22:20:10 -0700 >> >> Color and language, both, fascinate me. > > **Same here. Me, too! Thanks Jane for bringing this up. And I totally agree that, even though I've loved colors and color-ology since I was a kid, mauve was one of the hardest color terms for me to get a grasp of. I'm still not sure I've got it, and what I think of most often as mauve isn't a very attractive color to me anyway, so I always wonder why anyone would use the term that often. Also, growing up bilingual (English and Spanish) and then during my college years spending a couple of years living in Japan, I've always also had a great interest in the similarities and differences between the everyday usage of the words in different languages. As Jane mentioned, it was a little difficult to get used to everything that was blue or green or in between being called blue in Japan (especially traffic lights!). However, they do have a word for green, but it tends to only be used for things that are what I would call a bright kelly green. I've never seen an actual set of RHS color charts. (I hear they are very expensive.) However, I did grow up with the 64-crayon box of Crayola crayons and the names they used have heavily influenced my English usage of color names. (Although for some reason they were fairly weak in the teal/cyan part of the color wheel. I had to learn about that when personal computers (with color monitors) and especially color printers came into common usage.) Jane, I could fairly easily find you about ten people each from Mexico, Argentina/Chile/Peru, and Japan to come up with what words they use to refer to various different colors if you can come up with either printouts or things of a constant color they all could find or know of in each of those places. --Lee Poulsen Pasadena area, California, USDA Zone 9-10 From susanann@sbcglobal.net Sun Sep 19 02:01:36 2004 Message-Id: From: Susan Hayek Subject: Color terms/mauve Date: Sat, 18 Sep 2004 23:02:04 -0700 >tend to cringe a little, for instance, when an author describes a >flower as "mauve," one of the most ill-defined English color terms. **And just out of curiosity, how do people on this list describe 'mauve'. I can see what I think of as 'mauve' in my mind's eye, but to describe it.... -- susan, who is..... owned by Jasper & Schubert the Standard Poodles, Gracie the Rhodesian, Pup-Quiz the Basenji and their Basenji brother, Jones.... on the North Coast of CA, USA susanann@sbcglobal.net, copyright 2004 From Theladygardens@aol.com Sun Sep 19 02:18:16 2004 Message-Id: <8d.158e7a51.2e7e7ea2@aol.com> From: Theladygardens@aol.com Subject: Color terms/mauve Date: Sun, 19 Sep 2004 02:18:10 EDT Ok Susan, here is my verbal descripton of mauve, a light to medium strength pinkish-brown. Is that anything close to what you see? Carolyn From sheila1@iinet.net.au Sun Sep 19 02:40:25 2004 Message-Id: <00f401c49e13$8904fff0$52c83bcb@Burrow> From: "sheilab" Subject: Color terms/mauve Date: Sun, 19 Sep 2004 14:40:20 +0800 ----- Original Message ----- From: "Susan Hayek" **And just out of curiosity, how do people on this list describe 'mauve'. Just out of interest I put Mauve into Google. William Perkin was the man who invented mauve. There is even a book about him, Mauve, by Simon Garfield http://www.abc.net.au/canberra/stories/s1177453.htm Regards Sheila Perth Western Australia From Jamievande@freenet.de Sun Sep 19 05:35:05 2004 Message-Id: <006301c49e2c$403066c0$6502a8c0@Jamie2> From: "Jamie" Subject: Color terms Date: Sun, 19 Sep 2004 11:37:15 +0200 Morning all, here is an interesting site that discusses colour terms. Many terms are based on the latin root, which for plant people is positively interesting. http://phrontistery.50megs.com/colours.html Also, another site for understanding colour/pigment. http://www.brianmahieu.com/optical_comp.html > Jane McGary wrote: > > > I wonder if a multilingual horticultural color term chart would be useful > > to many people? > I had started work on an international definitions table about two years ago, but found that the variations in terms was much too complex. Apparently, perceptions are deeply rooted in local cultures, and less in language. I encounter this every day, as an artist, and it is clear that one cannot bring the world to have a common understanding of colour. Often, colour names are quite local, such as periwinkel, which hardly a European has heard of. Mauve is an interesting term, as it is often used for a relatively broad group of greyed-purples/ greyed-lavenders. I do not have a proplem with this, as colour perception is largely based on ambient light. This becomes especially clear in the dustier tones, which become indefinable under low light, such as in the typical home or shaded garden corner. Under the sun, the tones become clearer. Mauve is common in the garden, just look at the fading flowers of many Helleborus orientalis hybrids or the flower heads of fading Hortensia. They are truly a wonderful mauve. (personal favourite in the garden) Puce is another strange term derived from the French for flea! It refers to the colour of their blood, which is a pinky-purple. (someone must have been very bored to make this observation!) In a way, this is very similar to mauve, but moving to the violet spectrum, instead of into the blue-purples. Many colours are simply difficult to pin down, such as peach. In the English (UK) version, it is quite pink, while in othere languages it can be quite yellow. Interestingly, one can trace the developement of this relatively new colour: peach > peche > persik > pfirsich > persia, the land from where it first came to Europe! Apricot leads back to Armenica/Armenia. Generally speaking, apricot is the more yellow tinged pink/rose, which peach is more soft orange tinged pink. Then there is melon! And let me warn you, in Germany their flesh is chartreuse! I was a different cultivar as in the English/French-speaking lands. Although I use an RHS colour chart, yes, expensive, but an excellent and world-wide known reference, there is still notable variation in plant colour due to garden culture and climate. One of the reasons is the plant pigments themselves. The water-soluble anthocyanins, which are responsible for the reds-purples-blues, are very dependant on temperature, pH and sometines metallic ions in the soil. Without getting into the rather complex chemistry which lies behind pigments and which I do not fully grasp in any case, we can safely say, natural colour variation based on environment is large. Couple this with the subjectivity of colour perception and we do not seem to come much further, which is why I do prefer the RHS colour chart. At least it sets a standard which is numeric and not filled with prosaic definitions (I love extoling the nuances of colour, but it's not very accurate!). This said, I'm certainly not against attempting to collect terms and co-ordinating them to visuable definitions, I just question how useful it would be, other than to feed our imaginations. I do enjoy discussing it! (if you hadn't noticed LOL) Ciao, Jamie Vande Cologne From jglatt@ptd.net Sun Sep 19 07:30:00 2004 Message-Id: <000301c49e3d$9173de20$059a32d1@oemcomputer> From: "Judy Glattstein" Subject: the color of mauve Date: Sun, 19 Sep 2004 07:41:09 -0400 Marco Polo Stuffano used to describe this color as "old lady's underdraws." (? spelling) You have to be of a certain age, with a grandmother who wore these cotton panties with legs. Think of closer fitting knit boxer shorts, with a ribbed pattern, in a sort of bluish flesh pink. Judy in New Jersey where Ivan's remnants dropped 2.5 inches of rain in less than 24 hours but the creeks haven't risen all that much here at BelleWood Gardens. From jglatt@ptd.net Sun Sep 19 08:07:23 2004 Message-Id: <002c01c49e42$cc602660$059a32d1@oemcomputer> From: "Judy Glattstein" Subject: refrigerators, ethylene, and bulbs Date: Sun, 19 Sep 2004 08:18:25 -0400 Here is the gist of the information I received. I'd probably hedge my bets anyway, by not storing bulbs and apples in the same refrigerator drawer (and why don't they make refrigerators with 4 produce compartments? I always end up with a stray bag of carrots, bunch of celery, and such cluttering up the shelves.) I've put pots of bulbs for forcing in the refrigerator to chill (and you'd have more room for produce if you didn't, mutters my husband) and haven't noticed a problem. The pots are generally in a flimsy plastic bag (supermarket produce-holding kind) to corral stray earthworms and bits of mud. I also use the bags as intensive care tents when rooting cuttings. While they keep moisture levels higher under the plastic my understanding is that atmospheric gases are able to pass through. So, is anyone interested in a "proper" study: bulbs in drawer with apples, bulbs elsewhere in refrigerator, potted bulbs with/ without apples, unrefrigerated bulbs, etc. BTW - it is bananas that I put in a paper bag (at room temperature) with other fruit I'm trying to hustle into ripeness as somewhere/ when I was told bananas produce lots of ethylene. And bananas don't get refrigerated. Comment by Henk Gude, Applied Plant Research (the former bulb research centre): Sachets containing absorbing material(like zeolite) are used for trapping ethylene gas. The gas is oxidised by Potasium permanganate inside the grains. The sachets are useful for trapping ethylene in storage rooms or packages with fruit and vegetables (to prevent ripening). In tulip bulbs the ethylene damage threshold is much lower than in fruit, so the sachets are much less effective in tulips (they don't catch the last ethylene molecules). With respect to the combined storage of refrigerated bulbs and fruit: I don't expect that the ethylene trapping material will be necessary (or useful) in this case, because at low temperatures (below 10 deg C) the fruit will produce little ethylene and the sensitivity of the bulbs for ethylene is also much lower than at room temperature. At temperatures above 10 C (of course this is not a sharp transition) the ethylene problem is there and the ethylene trapping material will be useful. Verzonden: woensdag 18 september 2002 8:49 Aan: 'h.gude@ppo.dlo.nl' From mark@marksgardenplants.com Sun Sep 19 09:02:55 2004 Message-Id: <00f201c49e48$ec3644f0$5f3c2bd9@markp5xpcz3p3u> From: "Mark Smyth" Subject: the color of mauve Date: Sun, 19 Sep 2004 14:02:29 +0100 If you are trying to sort out colors you should buy the RHS Colour Chart. Every colour you can think of is in there along with it's number. To see what I mean look here http://www.snowdropinfo.com/pratense34.html Below the image is the colour and it's number. It's well worth the money and does away with guessing the colour. As you know everyone sees colour different. In can be obtained here http://www.rhs.org.uk/publications/pubs_library_colourchart.asp quoting the RHS "The RHS Colour Chart is the standard reference for plant colour identification. Used by the RHS, the chart is indispensable to gardeners who value accuracy in the identification of plant colours." Mark N Ireland where is is so cold today. From jwaddick@kc.rr.com Sun Sep 19 09:26:01 2004 Message-Id: From: James Waddick Subject: Roses are Red......Color terms Date: Sun, 19 Sep 2004 08:20:54 -0500 Dear Jane et al; Isn't it odd that color terms related/derived from plants seem so totally at odds. Examples Roses are red - you get this response from many people, but isn't the color 'rose' another distinctly different shade? and Violets are neither blue or rarely violet, but more often purple, yellow, etc. Ebony (the wood/tree) is far from black. I'm sure there are more plant related colors: lilacs, pinks, orchid, primrose, cerise (from the french for 'cherry'), etc. Speaking of black, 'Black' flowers are almost always far from black, but usually a deep red or purple. In fact pure colors especially red and blue ("red' iris, 'Blue' roses?) are fairly uncommon in nature. This is easily shown by taking a small square of construction paper of a pure red or blue color and lining it up with a flower said to be red or blue. (also true of black and white). And this seems to hold up more when you have pale 'colors'. Pale yellow may be tan, cream or even pink etc. Color is very personal and often has a meaning unrelated to the evidence. This difference between perception and reality is one of the reasons the RHS chart works so well and does not use names for its colors, just numbers. This avoids the associations that color names carry with them. By comparing flower colors through a small aperture, the RHS color charts eliminates surrounding/competing colors, isolates the color you are seeking and somewhat evens the perception of the actual color sample. Jane, it makes editing an even harder job. best Jim W -- Dr. James W. Waddick Near KCI Airport Kansas City Missouri 64152-2711 USA Ph. 816-746-1949 Zone 5 Record low -23F Summer 100F + From floralartistry2000@yahoo.com Sun Sep 19 09:56:37 2004 Message-Id: <20040919135636.52114.qmail@web50106.mail.yahoo.com> From: Floral Architecture Subject: Color Terms Date: Sun, 19 Sep 2004 06:56:36 -0700 (PDT) I have been having a round about discussion with my aunts about aqua. They are all convinced that it is green. Even though the carpet right next to it (that some blind designer believes coordinated) is a green. To me, the aqua in question is more of a wedgewood color. Correct me if I am wrong but does aqua not mean water? And is water not blue (in most places)? As far as mauve, well, I used to have 2 bedrooms when I grew up (the benefits of being a single child) that was mauve. The other was dusty pink. But, we don't need to go into that, it's a whole differnet story. Anyway, the mauve, as described by the paint companies was a plummy, dusky color. The bedspread was burgundy and worked beautifully and almost matched. I think there is a whole spectrum of colors out there that are being created by the paint, clothing, designer, cosmetic industries to try to capture potential buyers. Now, we all know when you pick out a new color for your living room that toasted pumpkin is a generally accepted and tangible color. But, things like Faint Flicker and Souvenir are not real colors. I've been trying to find specific colors in the paint world for certain projects and melon, peach, apricot, cobalt, green (just pure straight Green), etc. just don't exist. There are many things close but they have all been distorted. I would love to have an RHS color chart but last time I checked, they are about $100. THis is a little more than I want to spend on a reference that I will rarely reference. THe Clivia Society sells color charts but they are related to colors that come in clivia only (red, orange, and yellow/gold). It would be pretty useless for Worsleyas, Griffinia, Brodiae, etc. ===== John Ingram in L.A., CA. www.floralarchitecture.com check it out Floralartistry2000@yahoo.com 310.709.1613 (cell, west coast time, please call accordingly. Thank you) From msittner@mcn.org Sun Sep 19 10:55:54 2004 Message-Id: <4.2.2.20040918194905.01e127e0@mail.mcn.org> From: Mary Sue Ittner Subject: Bulb Questions from Chris Date: Sun, 19 Sep 2004 07:54:08 -0700 Dear Chris, I'm sure none of us want to stifle your enthusiasm about growing bulbs, but I think you might find a few books really helpful in answering your questions. I think Growing Bulbs: The Complete Practical Guide by Brian Mathew is an excellent book and I expect others could suggest other basic books as well. It is impossible to give an answer that would work for all bulbs. Our group talks about plants that are bulbs, tubers, rhizomes, tuberous roots, corms. What they all have in common is an underground storage organ that helps them survive difficult times. Some of them may be buried under snow and not appear until spring. Others are sitting out a summer without rain and will sprout when the rains begin. Others may be evergreen and never really lose their leaves. There are so many different variations. How to treat them depends on what you are growing. There are books that will give you information about different plants. It is also helpful to find out where they come from and what the conditions are where they grow. Oxalis, one of your favorite bulbs, grows all over the world. We have Oxalis growing in our Redwood forests in deep shade where they have winter rainfall and a dry summer except for the moisture that comes from fog drip. There are Oxalis growing in forests in Europe. Many of the really gorgeous ones are native to South Africa where some of them are found in areas that are low in rainfall, hot in summer, but never really cold in winter when the rain comes. They sprout with the first rains and go dormant when the weather becomes hot and dry. But there are summer rainfall Oxalis too. Other species come from Central or South America where they may have year round or tropical summer rainfall and grow in summer and are dormant in winter. So even with Oxalis you need to know something about the species you are growing if you want to be successful with it. Some bulbs benefit from repotting and others will sulk for years when you disturb their roots. It may be fine to leave bulbs in pots while they are dormant or to remove them. It just depends. Most can be grown from seed. Some will bloom quickly from seed and others will take many years and even then may not bloom if the conditions are not to their liking. Some seed may germinate quickly and other seed will take a long time. Some will grow underground the first year and you won't even know that anything is happening. Unless you have a greenhouse or a large indoor growing area with lights as a beginner you'll have much better luck growing bulbs that are happy with your climate. Many people in our group are able to grow bulbs that you wouldn't expect they could by knowing what conditions the bulbs need and providing those conditions. Some of us started however with things that were very easy to grow before we tried harder things. If there is a plant you are wondering about tell us what it is and hopefully someone in the group who grows it will try to help you. Mary Sue From c-mueller@tamu.edu Sun Sep 19 11:31:26 2004 Message-Id: From: "Cynthia Mueller" Subject: "Puce" color Date: Sun, 19 Sep 2004 10:30:48 -0500 Dear All, Let's dwell on what "puce" means as a color. There some bulbs described with puce-colored blooms, altho I can't really recollect which ones just now. "Puce" is supposedly from the Old French word for fleas, originally from the Latin. At dictionary.reference.com there are three separate entries for puce, with three different color foci: A deep red to dark grayish purple Of a dark brown or brownish purple color a color varying from dark purplish brown to dark red When I look at fleas, I just see very dark brown or black, not a color readily found in nature in flowers! And on paint swatches, I'm sure I've seen puce in the past as a sort of dirty mauve grey, not dark at all. Cynthia Mueller From susanann@sbcglobal.net Sun Sep 19 17:32:26 2004 Message-Id: From: Susan Hayek Subject: Color terms/mauve Date: Sun, 19 Sep 2004 10:02:29 -0700 At 2:18 AM -0400 9/19/04, Theladygardens@aol.com wrote: >Ok Susan, here is my verbal descripton of mauve, a light to medium strength >pinkish-brown. Is that anything close to what you see? >Carolyn I see a muddied greyed med to light pink. -- susan, who is..... owned by Jasper & Schubert the Standard Poodles, Gracie the Rhodesian, Pup-Quiz the Basenji and their Basenji brother, Jones.... on the North Coast of CA, USA susanann@sbcglobal.net, copyright 2004 From janemcgary@earthlink.net Sun Sep 19 14:18:12 2004 Message-Id: <5.2.1.1.0.20040919100906.01041b00@mail.earthlink.net> From: Jane McGary Subject: Color terms Date: Sun, 19 Sep 2004 10:18:03 -0700 I had an idea that my comments on color terms would stir up a lot of discussion! This is something almost everyone can talk about. Some responses: Yes, the RHS color chart is valuable, and I am going to buy one, but only because I can call it a business expense; as several correspondents remarked, it is quite expensive. However, a reference tool of this kind is valuable only to the extent that its users' readers have access to it. If I write that a flower is no. 187 on the RHS chart, only readers who have the chart will benefit from that information. Those who don't will be (momentarily) bored or annoyed. That's how editors have to think. There is at least one book on the subject of color terms and their cross-linguistic taxonomy: Brent Berlin and Paul Kay, "Basic color terms: Their universality and evolution" (Univ of California Press, 1969). Semanticists have also turned their eyes to folk biological classification, by the way. Berlin & Kay's conclusions have been modified to some extent by subsequent researchers and by Berlin's later work. Susan Hayek wrote, >*And I believe, when I was teaching spec ed, somewhere I had a workshop on cultural >differences/languages and learned that in some native American cultures there was only one >word which meant warm colors and one word for cool. "Warm" and "cool", of course, may mean >different things in different language/cultures. I think this is one of those folk-linguistic myths that originate in misinterpretations by journalists or other nonspecialists, similar to the myth that there are languages where it's impossible to count beyond three (a misinterpretation arising from verb number, apparently), or languages that have a hundred words for 'snow'. (True, you can make a hundred words for snow in Inuttitun [Eskimo], which can compound even more lavishly than German or Classical Greek, but you could make the same words in English if you really tried.) The Native American languages I studied used the same device for expanding their color terminology that European languages use, referencing (perhaps with affixes) the names of common objects that are the appropriate color, such as 'rose', 'turquoise', and 'gold'. Jim Waddick wrote, > Roses are red - you get this response from many people, but isn't the color 'rose' another distinctly different shade? Jamie noted that "rosa" in German is pale pink, but "rose" in English tends to be used for medium to deep pink, i.e. red mixed with white. Most garden roses, however, are either blue-pink or yellow-pink, as you will find when you try to mix them in arrangements. I think Eng. "rose" is rather a blue-pink, but not as blue as "mauve." Jim went on,>and Violets are neither blue or rarely violet, but more often purple, yellow, etc. "Purple" is a difficult term in English. For many people it's synonymous with "violet." Some people take the Classical view of "purple," which would make it a blue-red, while others shift their definition more toward the spectrum color indigo, a slightly reddish blue. If you lean toward the former, "purple" and "violet" (the latter is the spectrum term) are synonyms. I tend to write "violet" rather than "purple" for this color range. As for the colors of Viola spp., these range from near-blue to near-red, offering no help. If, as Mary Sue suggested, we discuss favorite purple-flowered bulbs, we may see how far people's field for "purple" extends, and we may hash out "lavender," "lilac," and so on. We may even agree on a cutoff point for "blue," which plant catalog copywriters toss around so freely, as Mary Sue mentioned. The photos she cites are probably Photoshopped to create a more colorful page layout. There are really blue crocuses, but they're light blue (C. abantensis, C. baytopiorum) or the blue is mostly in the external markings (C. leichtlinii), and you'll never find any of them in a mass-market bulb catalog. Regarding capturing blue in digital photographs, I think this depends on your camera. My Nikon Coolpix seems to do a good job with this (almost as good as Fuji Astria slide film), but I recently viewed the submissions for the NARGS photo contest and noted that certain photographers were having trouble with their blues (either because their cameras didn't capture the color right, or because they had tried unsuccessfully to enhance the colors), while others sent in photos of flowers in the blue range that appeared quite true to me. (I'm not a photography expert, but I have an unusually acute visual memory, including for colors.) Jim mentioned more specialized color words ("lilacs, pinks, orchid, primrose, cerise (from the french for 'cherry'), and John Ingram also commented on these. Many of these words entered English in the 18th and 19th centuries when fabric dyes diversified greatly (as Sheila noted, mauve resulted from a dye chemist's work in that period). Many such words were imported from French because it was the language of high fashion -- hence "cerise" and "puce," and "mauve" which is the French word for a flower, mallow or Malva. "Aqua," or pale greenish blue, mentioned by John, is a fashion color term innovated directly in English but taken from Latin. Sorry to go on so long! Must write something about the bulbs now. Jane McGary Northwestern Oregon, USA From Theladygardens@aol.com Sun Sep 19 13:46:07 2004 Message-Id: <13c.1b2d119.2e7f1fdb@aol.com> From: Theladygardens@aol.com Subject: "Puce" color Date: Sun, 19 Sep 2004 13:46:03 EDT Cynthia, your three different definitions of 'puce' could cover 3 different varieties of Eggplant. Now I can visualize a color I think is mauve, even describe my version as a medium value pinkish-brown. I cannot really visualize or describe 'puce' other than a dull eggplant of some variety. Carolyn From janemcgary@earthlink.net Sun Sep 19 14:18:15 2004 Message-Id: <5.2.1.1.0.20040919105514.01094258@mail.earthlink.net> From: Jane McGary Subject: Early fall notes Date: Sun, 19 Sep 2004 11:17:21 -0700 The fall rains have arrived in the Pacific Northwest a month early this year, and neither the vintners nor the hikers are very happy about that. Some of the bulbs, however, may enjoy a long frost-free fall season. A real surprise was the flowering of Urginea undulata, a miniature member of this Mediterranean genus (Hyacinthaceae). I bought it as a bulb from Monocot Nursery about 4 years ago and have been admiring the foliage ever since. It makes flattish rosettes about 4 inches/10 cm across. The leaf margins are extremely wavy (undulata) and crimped. I suspected it would never flower in this cool climate, but after a hot summer it produced a scape about 10 in/25 cm long with numerous tiny white flowers which lasted only a couple of days. I didn't get a photo but will try to post a photo of the leaves, which are more interesting than the inflorescence. Another flower I regard as something of a miracle under my conditions is Narcissus humilis, a Mediterranean "daffodil" so unusual that it has been placed at times in another genus, Tapeinanthus. It has a stem about 5 in/12 cm tall with a single bright yellow flower that has only a corolla, no corona (cup); the leaves emerge later. Both seed-grown and purchased bulbs are flowering today, presumably triggered by temperature since one pot is in a frame that receives more summer water than the other. In response to the rain and cool temperatures, all the frames have now been given their first fall watering, which I usually would not do until about Oct. 10. Two seed-grown pots of Sternbergia colchiciflora are in flower, one from the Archibalds' seeds and another from NARGS exchange seed collected near Isparta, Turkey. This is the smallest Sternbergia. The light to bright yellow flowers don't open very widely and are only about an inch (2.5 cm) long, appearing before the leaves. The Isparta plants took 7 years from sowing to flowering. Monocot seeds has been a source of some interesting Near Eastern plants. Seeds received as Colchicum hierosolymitanum ('of Jerusalem') produced 5 bulbs that flowered this month for the first time. I'm not sure the name is right, since I looked up this species on the Internet and came across a photo showing flowers that seemed not to be tessellated (checkered), whereas my flowers are faintly tessellated. It's a small species. How I wish for a good comprehensive reference on this genus! I have good photos but hesitate to post them on the wiki without being able to verify the name. On a more mundane level, Cyclamen graecum is producing its thick-textured pink flowers (I need a white form!), and C. intaminatum its small but pretty ones. C. africanum and C. rohlfsianum, which have to be kept in the conservatory, are also in flower. This year I planted a number of C. graecum outdoors to see if they will tolerate our winters. All the bulbs are in the ground or frames or pots now, except for a basket of Nectaroscordum siculum bulbs that glare at me whenever I walk by. I can't decide if it's worth the trouble putting them in the ground, but they'd be a good inedible addition to the Vole Bed. I was delighted that my sole bulb of the expensive N. tripedale (much prettier with its soft pink flowers) produced seeds this summer. Jane McGary Northwestern Oregon, USA From crinum@libero.it Sun Sep 19 15:23:44 2004 Message-Id: <000801c49e7e$edb2ea50$64fea8c0@6b6625a8caff485> From: "Alberto Grossi" Subject: Books and articles Date: Sun, 19 Sep 2004 21:29:05 +0200 Hi all, I am looking for articles from back issues of Herbertia-Plant Life before 1990 about Crinum, Hymenocallis, Nerine; and the book "Amaryllidaceae tribe Amarylleae" by Traub & Moldenke, edition of 1987. Who may help me? Alberto Italy From arnold@nj.rr.com Sun Sep 19 16:46:48 2004 Message-Id: <414DF035.1040908@nj.rr.com> From: Arnold Trachtenberg Subject: Books and articles Date: Sun, 19 Sep 2004 16:46:45 -0400 Alberto: If you go to the International bulb Society web page { www.bulbsociety.org} you will find an order form to get back issues of Herbertia and Plant Life. Arnold From arnold@nj.rr.com Sun Sep 19 16:58:49 2004 Message-Id: <414DF304.3080504@nj.rr.com> From: Arnold Trachtenberg Subject: Primaverina Date: Sun, 19 Sep 2004 16:58:44 -0400 Alberto: Go to site map on the left side of the page and click and you will see an area to order back issues. Arnold From scamp@earthlink.net Sun Sep 19 21:40:36 2004 Message-Id: <410-22004912014042174@earthlink.net> From: "Christine Council" Subject: Bulb Questions from Chris Date: Sun, 19 Sep 2004 21:40:42 -0400 Dear Mary Sue< Thank you for your insight. I am doing fairly well as a plant lover, but just when I think I know what I am doing, something strange happens. My daughter gave me a gift of a little portable green house, so I am going to try my luck with that. I also removed some potted plants for the upcoming Winter and combined soil that looked as if nothing was growing; now stuff is popping up all over the place. Nothing grew in those pots all Summer and not they like the dirt etc. Now that I have mixed the soil, I know I shouldn't have. Don't give up on me because I have learned a great deal about plants, also my famaily says they love to see me working with my plants. Of course I never thought I would get excited over a blossom or a root, perhaps I am finally in my element. Thanks again for your advise, I shall get some more books. See Ya, Chris > [Original Message] > From: Mary Sue Ittner > To: Pacific Bulb Society > Date: 9/19/2004 10:55:57 AM > Subject: [pbs] Bulb Questions from Chris > > Dear Chris, > > I'm sure none of us want to stifle your enthusiasm about growing bulbs, but > I think you might find a few books really helpful in answering your > questions. I think Growing Bulbs: The Complete Practical Guide by Brian > Mathew is an excellent book and I expect others could suggest other basic > books as well. > > It is impossible to give an answer that would work for all bulbs. Our group > talks about plants that are bulbs, tubers, rhizomes, tuberous roots, corms. > What they all have in common is an underground storage organ that helps > them survive difficult times. Some of them may be buried under snow and not > appear until spring. Others are sitting out a summer without rain and will > sprout when the rains begin. Others may be evergreen and never really lose > their leaves. There are so many different variations. > > How to treat them depends on what you are growing. There are books that > will give you information about different plants. It is also helpful to > find out where they come from and what the conditions are where they grow. > Oxalis, one of your favorite bulbs, grows all over the world. We have > Oxalis growing in our Redwood forests in deep shade where they have winter > rainfall and a dry summer except for the moisture that comes from fog drip. > There are Oxalis growing in forests in Europe. Many of the really gorgeous > ones are native to South Africa where some of them are found in areas that > are low in rainfall, hot in summer, but never really cold in winter when > the rain comes. They sprout with the first rains and go dormant when the > weather becomes hot and dry. But there are summer rainfall Oxalis too. > Other species come from Central or South America where they may have year > round or tropical summer rainfall and grow in summer and are dormant in > winter. So even with Oxalis you need to know something about the species > you are growing if you want to be successful with it. > > Some bulbs benefit from repotting and others will sulk for years when you > disturb their roots. It may be fine to leave bulbs in pots while they are > dormant or to remove them. It just depends. Most can be grown from seed. > Some will bloom quickly from seed and others will take many years and even > then may not bloom if the conditions are not to their liking. Some seed may > germinate quickly and other seed will take a long time. Some will grow > underground the first year and you won't even know that anything is happening. > > Unless you have a greenhouse or a large indoor growing area with lights as > a beginner you'll have much better luck growing bulbs that are happy with > your climate. Many people in our group are able to grow bulbs that you > wouldn't expect they could by knowing what conditions the bulbs need and > providing those conditions. Some of us started however with things that > were very easy to grow before we tried harder things. > > If there is a plant you are wondering about tell us what it is and > hopefully someone in the group who grows it will try to help you. > > Mary Sue > > _______________________________________________ > pbs mailing list > pbs@lists.ibiblio.org > http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php From jimmckenney@starpower.net Sun Sep 19 22:43:24 2004 Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.20040919224311.00a0ee20@pop.starpower.net> From: Jim McKenney Subject: Color terms Date: Sun, 19 Sep 2004 22:43:11 -0400 I've been enjoying this discussion. My grasp of color isn't all that sophisticated, but I've come a long way. Here are some thoughts, somewhat random, on this topic. I'm surprised that no has yet mentioned the two basic theories of color: the subtractive theory and the additive theory. The subtractive theory is the one which pertains to the observed behavior of pigments - it's the theory painters (and gardeners such as Gertrude Jekyll) used to describe color. To this day, when gardeners talk about color, the talk tends to be colored (how's that for an appropriate metaphor!) by generations of experience in manipulating color in terms of the subtractive theory. Why is it called the subtractive theory? I found this fascinating once I finally understood it: mix any two pigments and the resulting color will be duller, less bright, less intense, than either of the two original colors. The other theory, the additive theory, gets its name from the observation of what happens when light passes through a prism: seemingly colorless light breaks up into a spectrum of color. Reverse the process (i.e. combine the colors correctly) and you get colorless light again: added rather than lessened brightness, intensity. If there is a physicist out there reading this, don't laugh, jump in and give us better information! It has already been pointed out that the primary color names are different in the two systems. Until I tried to calibrate the color on my monitor, I thought that cyan would be blue. There is another basic aspect of color which also has not been mentioned: color itself exists only in the mind of the beholder. Yes, objects have properties which cause wave lengths of light to be absorbed or not; and as a result, we perceive color. But the existence of color implies the existence of something to perceive the color: color does not have an independent existence. Color names based on fruit and flower colors baffle me. Take cerise for example. Is it really as simple as cherry colored? What kind of cherries? Cherries come in pale yellowish white, pink (more about that one later), various reds - mostly on the blue side of red but sometimes near scarlet on the orange side of the color wheel, maroon, dark blackish reds and so on. Which one of these is cerise? The same can be said for plum colored: plums come in a variety of colors. I'm infuriated by those who use apricot as a color description. The apricots I know are a soft yellow orange. Yet color descriptions sometimes seem to use apricot to describe a sort of pinkish orange. Purple and violet: to me, Clematis x jackmanii is purple, Viola odorata Queen Charlotte is violet. Contrary to what most catalogs will lead you to believe, there are no purple tree peonies. But what is that color? It's a sort of ox blood red with some blue in it. Or the color of dried globe amaranth with some extra blue? That mauve should be so elusive is not surprising: I'll bet that not too many more people have seen the mallow in question (Althaea officinalis) than have tasted the confection made from them. That the color is phoney may surprise some people, but then so too are the marshmallows you buy in the store these days. And then there is pink, a very confused color concept if I'm to believe what my eyes seem to be telling me when I see the full regalia of those who ride to the hounds. Puce: no wonder they said it in French! What a disgusting idea. The current Asiatica catalog describes the flower color of Podophyllum difforme as "dried blood" - that's puce, isn't it? As to flesh: well, it was obviously Caucasian flesh which was described in an earlier post on this topic. Should we be surprised that others have other ideas about this? One other thing which intrigues me: my right and left eye do not perceive color the same way. One eye emphasizes the warm side of the spectrum, the other the cool side. Jim McKenney jimmckenney@starpower.net Montgomery County, Maryland, USA, USDA zone 7, where, to paraphrase an old saying, it was a brave man who first ate a real marshmallow. From jimmckenney@starpower.net Sun Sep 19 23:39:00 2004 Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.20040919233849.00a0fe90@pop.starpower.net> From: Jim McKenney Subject: the color of mauve Date: Sun, 19 Sep 2004 23:38:49 -0400 At 07:41 AM 9/19/2004 -0400, Judy wrote: >Marco Polo Stuffano used to describe this color as "old lady's underdraws." >(? spelling) You have to be of a certain age, with a grandmother who wore >these cotton panties with legs. Think of closer fitting knit boxer shorts, >with a ribbed pattern, in a sort of bluish flesh pink. Years ago I got a call from a friend who wanted to give me some of his pink bearded iris. When I asked why he was getting rid of them, he told me it was because their color reminded him of the color of ladies' undergarments. Jim McKenney jimmckenney@starpower.net Montgomery County, Maryland, USA, USDA zone 7, where I was tempted to label my new pink iris Iris 'Bearded Pink Ladies'. From IntarsiaCo@aol.com Mon Sep 20 06:16:29 2004 Message-Id: <19a.29e3a6c7.2e8007f5@aol.com> From: IntarsiaCo@aol.com Subject: Color terms Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2004 06:16:21 EDT Why bother with expensive RHS color charts (that eventually fade) when one can download (at no cost) Colorpicker 2.0 (or equivalent) and universally communicate color with only three numbers? Mark Mazer Intarsia Ltd. Gaylordsville, Connecticut 06755-0142 USA www.therapyshapes.com USDA Zone 5 Giant Schnauzer Rescue From piabinha@yahoo.com Mon Sep 20 10:38:14 2004 Message-Id: <20040920143813.71425.qmail@web51902.mail.yahoo.com> From: piaba Subject: Books and articles Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2004 07:38:13 -0700 (PDT) i found the book you are looking for by using abebooks.com. the vendor is in s. africa: http://dogbert.abebooks.com/servlet/SearchResults?imagefield.x=0&an=traub+Moldenke&cm_re=A*Search+Box*Form&imagefield.y=0 (if the link doesn't work because it's too long, go to abebooks and do a search) tsuh yang __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From piabinha@yahoo.com Mon Sep 20 10:41:01 2004 Message-Id: <20040920144047.64365.qmail@web51905.mail.yahoo.com> From: piaba Subject: Fw: [pbs] Color terms Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2004 07:40:47 -0700 (PDT) > Language: It appears from encounters I've had, and > texts that I've read, > that blue and red are virtually one in Chinese. We > divide the spectrum in > different ways. not blue and red, but blue and green is the same word. tsuh yang __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail is new and improved - Check it out! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From johnbryan@worldnet.att.net Mon Sep 20 12:02:39 2004 Message-Id: <414EFE55.F8F288@worldnet.att.net> From: John Bryan Subject: "Puce" color Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2004 08:59:17 -0700 Dear All: Believe it or not, there is a VW color of some of their cars, and others, I think Ford, who describe the color of one of their cars as 'puce'. Trot down to the dealers and you will be able to find a color chart showing this. Cheers, John E. Bryan Theladygardens@aol.com wrote: > > Cynthia, your three different definitions of 'puce' could cover 3 different > varieties of Eggplant. Now I can visualize a color I think is mauve, even > describe my version as a medium value pinkish-brown. I cannot really visualize or > describe 'puce' other than a dull eggplant of some variety. > Carolyn > _______________________________________________ > pbs mailing list > pbs@lists.ibiblio.org > http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php From johnbryan@worldnet.att.net Mon Sep 20 12:09:35 2004 Message-Id: <414F0006.60DD55AB@worldnet.att.net> From: John Bryan Subject: Color terms Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2004 09:06:30 -0700 Dear All: Prior to the current RHS Color Chart, the old version circa 1950's, also had descriptions of the color, these I found most helpful when writing descriptions of lilies. They referenced fruits, vegetables, etc., which conjured easily understood descriptions, ideal when writing descriptions. Such a chart might be less expensive than the new color chart, and perhaps as, or even more useful. Cheers, john E. Bryan Jane McGary wrote: > > I had an idea that my comments on color terms would stir up a lot of > discussion! This is something almost everyone can talk about. Some responses: > > Yes, the RHS color chart is valuable, and I am going to buy one, but only > because I can call it a business expense; as several correspondents > remarked, it is quite expensive. However, a reference tool of this kind is > valuable only to the extent that its users' readers have access to it. If I > write that a flower is no. 187 on the RHS chart, only readers who have the > chart will benefit from that information. Those who don't will be > (momentarily) bored or annoyed. That's how editors have to think. > > There is at least one book on the subject of color terms and their > cross-linguistic taxonomy: Brent Berlin and Paul Kay, "Basic color terms: > Their universality and evolution" (Univ of California Press, 1969). > Semanticists have also turned their eyes to folk biological classification, > by the way. Berlin & Kay's conclusions have been modified to some extent by > subsequent researchers and by Berlin's later work. > > Susan Hayek wrote, > >*And I believe, when I was teaching spec ed, somewhere I had a workshop > on cultural >differences/languages and learned that in some native American > cultures there was only one >word which meant warm colors and one word for > cool. "Warm" and "cool", of course, may mean >different things in different > language/cultures. > > I think this is one of those folk-linguistic myths that originate in > misinterpretations by journalists or other nonspecialists, similar to the > myth that there are languages where it's impossible to count beyond three > (a misinterpretation arising from verb number, apparently), or languages > that have a hundred words for 'snow'. (True, you can make a hundred words > for snow in Inuttitun [Eskimo], which can compound even more lavishly than > German or Classical Greek, but you could make the same words in English if > you really tried.) The Native American languages I studied used the same > device for expanding their color terminology that European languages use, > referencing (perhaps with affixes) the names of common objects that are the > appropriate color, such as 'rose', 'turquoise', and 'gold'. > > Jim Waddick wrote, > > Roses are red - you get this response from many people, but isn't the > color 'rose' another distinctly different shade? > > Jamie noted that "rosa" in German is pale pink, but "rose" in English tends > to be used for medium to deep pink, i.e. red mixed with white. Most garden > roses, however, are either blue-pink or yellow-pink, as you will find when > you try to mix them in arrangements. I think Eng. "rose" is rather a > blue-pink, but not as blue as "mauve." > > Jim went on,>and Violets are neither blue or rarely violet, but more often > purple, yellow, etc. > > "Purple" is a difficult term in English. For many people it's synonymous > with "violet." Some people take the Classical view of "purple," which would > make it a blue-red, while others shift their definition more toward the > spectrum color indigo, a slightly reddish blue. If you lean toward the > former, "purple" and "violet" (the latter is the spectrum term) are > synonyms. I tend to write "violet" rather than "purple" for this color > range. As for the colors of Viola spp., these range from near-blue to > near-red, offering no help. If, as Mary Sue suggested, we discuss favorite > purple-flowered bulbs, we may see how far people's field for "purple" > extends, and we may hash out "lavender," "lilac," and so on. > > We may even agree on a cutoff point for "blue," which plant catalog > copywriters toss around so freely, as Mary Sue mentioned. The photos she > cites are probably Photoshopped to create a more colorful page layout. > There are really blue crocuses, but they're light blue (C. abantensis, C. > baytopiorum) or the blue is mostly in the external markings (C. > leichtlinii), and you'll never find any of them in a mass-market bulb > catalog. Regarding capturing blue in digital photographs, I think this > depends on your camera. My Nikon Coolpix seems to do a good job with this > (almost as good as Fuji Astria slide film), but I recently viewed the > submissions for the NARGS photo contest and noted that certain > photographers were having trouble with their blues (either because their > cameras didn't capture the color right, or because they had tried > unsuccessfully to enhance the colors), while others sent in photos of > flowers in the blue range that appeared quite true to me. (I'm not a > photography expert, but I have an unusually acute visual memory, including > for colors.) > > Jim mentioned more specialized color words ("lilacs, pinks, orchid, > primrose, cerise (from the french for 'cherry'), and John Ingram also > commented on these. Many of these words entered English in the 18th and > 19th centuries when fabric dyes diversified greatly (as Sheila noted, mauve > resulted from a dye chemist's work in that period). Many such words were > imported from French because it was the language of high fashion -- hence > "cerise" and "puce," and "mauve" which is the French word for a flower, > mallow or Malva. "Aqua," or pale greenish blue, mentioned by John, is a > fashion color term innovated directly in English but taken from Latin. > > Sorry to go on so long! Must write something about the bulbs now. > Jane McGary > Northwestern Oregon, USA > > _______________________________________________ > pbs mailing list > pbs@lists.ibiblio.org > http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php From johnbryan@worldnet.att.net Mon Sep 20 12:15:03 2004 Message-Id: <414F0154.446C77CD@worldnet.att.net> From: John Bryan Subject: Color terms Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2004 09:12:04 -0700 Dear All; Except when being used, the color charts should be returned to the box in which the charts are held. They fade not in this way, even after many many years of use. Remember this color chart is accepted around the world and is very accurate. Can the same be said of Colorpicker? I also question if the colors will be as accurate when downloaded. Cheers, John E. Bryan IntarsiaCo@aol.com wrote: > > Why bother with expensive RHS color charts (that eventually fade) when one > can download (at no cost) Colorpicker 2.0 (or equivalent) and universally > communicate color with only three numbers? > > Mark Mazer > Intarsia Ltd. > Gaylordsville, Connecticut 06755-0142 > USA > www.therapyshapes.com > USDA Zone 5 > Giant Schnauzer Rescue > _______________________________________________ > pbs mailing list > pbs@lists.ibiblio.org > http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php From mark@marksgardenplants.com Mon Sep 20 12:30:35 2004 Message-Id: <006601c49f2f$283381c0$5d3c2bd9@markp5xpcz3p3u> From: "Mark Smyth" Subject: Color terms Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2004 17:30:35 +0100 >I also question if the colors will be as accurate when downloaded and if they are printed out! Mark N Ireland where the tail end of one of the hurricanes is passing through From msittner@mcn.org Mon Sep 20 12:38:14 2004 Message-Id: <4.2.2.20040920092451.00d92a50@mail.mcn.org> From: Mary Sue Ittner Subject: Favorite Purple Bulbs--TOW Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2004 09:36:01 -0700 Dear All, To get the subject back on bulbs while still keeping a color theme, it is now time in our discussion of favorite bulbs by color to move through the color spectrum to purple. Rodger's recent post about the basic colors in English supports my using purple. I am relieved to see that yellow, orange, red, and pink (earlier discussed) were all included. Please tell us which five purple bulbs are your favorites. Be sure and include where you live in your address. If you want to include a more descriptive color term for your favorites you can. I suppose you could include the word you'd use in your native language too if it is not English. I hope we'll have a lot of participation. I'm already trying to narrow my choices down as there are a lot of plants I love that have purple flowers. Mary Sue From IntarsiaCo@aol.com Mon Sep 20 13:07:36 2004 Message-Id: <19e.29a78302.2e80684e@aol.com> From: IntarsiaCo@aol.com Subject: Color terms Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2004 13:07:26 EDT In a message dated 9/20/2004 12:15:37 PM Eastern Daylight Time, johnbryan@worldnet.att.net writes: >Remember this color chart is accepted around the >world and is very accurate. Can the same be said of Colorpicker? In a word, yes. It is identical to the color picker that comes with Photoshop and is available free to all. The download takes less than a minute and is available at: http://www.carto.net/help/netscape_colorpicker/ It works with all browsers. Within minutes we could be communicating about the same color with out having to give it an inadequate "name". Mark Mazer Intarsia Ltd. Gaylordsville, Connecticut 06755-0142 USA www.therapyshapes.com USDA Zone 5 Giant Schnauzer Rescue From jimmckenney@starpower.net Mon Sep 20 14:17:05 2004 Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.20040920132904.00a146f0@pop.starpower.net> From: Jim McKenney Subject: Color terms Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2004 13:29:04 -0400 At 01:07 PM 9/20/2004 EDT, Mark wrote: >Within minutes we could be communicating about the same color with out having >to give it an inadequate "name". Mark, wouldn't the color one sees on the monitor depend on the calibration of the monitor? The numbers assigned to a color would reproduce the exact same color only on identically calibrated monitors, right? Jim McKenney jimmckenney@starpower.net From Jamievande@freenet.de Mon Sep 20 13:51:40 2004 Message-Id: <002501c49f3a$b81ec3c0$6502a8c0@Jamie2> From: "Jamie" Subject: Color terms Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2004 19:53:21 +0200 Mark, although such intruments as ColorPicker are useful for the creation of websites, they only remain "true" when viewed on the same kind of monitor that has been identically calibrated. This is doable, but it is far from universal. Printing is a waste of time. I love my RHS colour chart. Yes, it was expensive, but I can maintain the accuracy I desire and I am much more likely to replace my computer monitor than the colour card! For myself, the two are apples and oranges, Ciao, Jamie V. Cologne ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Monday, September 20, 2004 7:07 PM Subject: Re: [pbs] Color terms > In a message dated 9/20/2004 12:15:37 PM Eastern Daylight Time, > johnbryan@worldnet.att.net writes: > >Remember this color chart is accepted around the > >world and is very accurate. Can the same be said of Colorpicker? > > In a word, yes. It is identical to the color picker that comes with Photoshop > and is available free to all. The download takes less than a minute and is > available at: > > http://www.carto.net/help/netscape_colorpicker/ > > It works with all browsers. > > Within minutes we could be communicating about the same color with out having > to give it an inadequate "name". > > > Mark Mazer > Intarsia Ltd. > Gaylordsville, Connecticut 06755-0142 > USA > www.therapyshapes.com > USDA Zone 5 > Giant Schnauzer Rescue > _______________________________________________ > pbs mailing list > pbs@lists.ibiblio.org > http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php > From voltaire@islandnet.com Mon Sep 20 13:59:00 2004 Message-Id: From: Diane Whitehead Subject: Color terms Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2004 10:58:47 -0700 > >Within minutes we could be communicating about the same color with out having >to give it an inadequate "name". > Monitors vary. I just have to glance around this room to see how different a webpage looks on the various ones we own. Graphic designers buy calibrated monitors. It is possible to calibrate ordinary monitors. http://trikuare.cx/art/tut/gamma/ tells how. Diane Whitehead From IntarsiaCo@aol.com Mon Sep 20 15:04:23 2004 Message-Id: <13c.1cbf00f.2e8083a7@aol.com> From: IntarsiaCo@aol.com Subject: Color terms Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2004 15:04:07 EDT In a message dated 9/20/2004 2:49:51 PM Eastern Daylight Time, voltaire@islandnet.com writes: Monitors vary. I just have to glance around this room to see how different Very true. And setting the gamma is definitely required. But you know, even the RHS color chart, and the Pantone chips that I have been using have their liabilities. Viewed under different lighting conditions they appear different. Color management is a huge topic and there are no simple answers but at least if I were to send you H=271 S=51 and B=61, no matter where you are, with a properly set up monitor viewed under daylight, we would be able to view that color with little or no noticable differences. Mark Mazer Intarsia Ltd. Gaylordsville, Connecticut 06755-0142 USA www.therapyshapes.com USDA Zone 5 Giant Schnauzer Rescue From wpoulsen@pacbell.net Mon Sep 20 20:03:31 2004 Message-Id: From: Lee Poulsen Subject: Color terms Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2004 17:03:29 -0700 On Sep 19, 2004, at 7:43 PM, Jim McKenney wrote: > I'm surprised that no has yet mentioned the two basic theories of > color: > the subtractive theory and the additive theory. The subtractive theory > is > the one which pertains to the observed behavior of pigments - it's the > theory painters (and gardeners such as Gertrude Jekyll) used to > describe > color. > > The other theory, the additive theory, gets its name from the > observation > of what happens when light passes through a prism: seemingly colorless > light breaks up into a spectrum of color. Reverse the process (i.e. > combine > the colors correctly) and you get colorless light again: added rather > than > lessened brightness, intensity. > I find all this color talk fascinating, and while yes there is a whole large area of science and engineering having to do with color management, color calibration, and how to make sure that the same color is the same color every time it's reproduced on every machine it's reproduced on, there is a basic theory underlying it all. (I hope Mary Sue doesn't mind all this talk about it. But after all, we're all interested in the various colorful flowers that our bulbs produce and with the wiki and digital cameras, this group also spends considerable time sharing photos of these flowers and viewing them, and talking about them.) The two theories of color (additive and subtractive) that Jim M. mentioned are both part of the same overall theory, really. You can think of the additive theory as being (computer) monitor color theory and subtractive theory as being color printer color theory. Additive color theory pertains to colors produced directly by colored light sources, such as the little phosphor dots or LCD dots (if you use a flat screen or laptop) covering your monitor screen. Subtractive theory pertains to colors produced by reflecting certain frequencies of light from pigments (such as color toner or ink dots on a sheet of paper from your color printer) when light containing those frequencies shines on them. (White light is a mixture of all visible frequencies and is therefore the best light to view all colors under. You don't need light to view colors produced directly using light.) What I've sort of drawn below is the CIE color space that is based on human color perception. The outer horseshoe-shaped figure represents the location in human color perception space that each frequency in the visible spectrum falls. In this representation it marks the limits of the most intense hue a human would perceive if light of that frequency shined on the retina of his/her eye. All other colors (that humans can perceive) lie within the interior of this shape. What's nice about this shape is that if you draw a straight line between two locations on the outer shape, then pick a third location somewhere along that line between the two outer points, that will be the color that a human will perceive if you mix proportions of each endpoint color in the same relative amounts as the ratio of the two distances along that line from each endpoint to your designated third point. If you mix fairly equal amounts of color from three points, the topmost point and each of the two lower corners (which corresponds to mixing green, blue, and red light together), you will get white (or shades of grey fading down to black). [This diagram doesn't show what happens as you lighten or darken a color; you need a 3-dimensional plot to show that. It only shows the case where everything is at its most intense.] What I've drawn in the middle are two triangles that are supposed to represent in case 1, with the point going upwards, the locations of the colors of the three different phosphor dots or LCD dots (marked R, G, and B for red, green, and blue) that cover the front of a monitor, and in case 2, with the point going downwards, the locations of the colors of the three types of color toner or inkjet ink (marked with C, M, and Y for cyan, magenta, and yellow). [Most color printers also have a black ink, designated K, since mixing equal amounts of C, M, and Y tends to produce a dark grey or dark muddy brown and the black ink or toner allows you to print really nice blacks.] The points of the two triangles can be considered the primary colors for that medium. Notice that you can produce the three primary colors of the opposite medium by mixing together pairs of the primaries of each medium, but never as intense a version as the pure primary of the opposite medium. Notice that in either case, no part of the triangles is as intense as pure light shining on your eye (the outermost curve). What the triangles represent is the boundary of all the colors that can possibly be produced with just those three colors (RGB for monitors, CMYK for printers). Also notice that monitors can produce a larger number of colors and more intense hues than inks or toners can. These two triangles also show why you can't ever faithfully print all of the colors that show up on your computer screen because parts of the monitor's triangle lie outside the printer ink's triangle. (There are also a smaller number of colors that can be printed that don't show up as well on a monitor.) (Unless you can find phosphor colors or LCDs that form a monitor triangle that completely encloses the printer triangle which often tends to be smaller.) BTW, I've also written in the two other color terms that Rodger mentioned that fall on the outermost shape, orange and purple. Pink is basically a less intense magenta, and brown is a darkened, less intense red/orange. Black, grey, and white lie at the dot in the middle. BTW2, the straight line between the blue endpoint and the red endpoint is called the purple line or the nonspectral color line. These are colors that cannot be induced in the human mind with a single frequency of light. They all require at least two different frequencies simultaneously shining at the same point. Thus, you will never see these colors in a spectrum produced by a prism or in a rainbow since both of those separate out all the individual frequencies. It goes from kind of the rose-reds through the pinks and magentas to the purples, lavenders, violets to the blue-violet. The corner of the blue side of the curve is a deep ultramarine blue. BTW3, it's kind of funny that so many languages merge the greens with the blues given that it covers so much territory in color space. Maybe that's why there is no natural word, a la what Rodger told us, for cyan. However, these days in America I can use the word teal, and most younger people, usually, know what I'm talking about. And they don't confuse it with "true" blue. As for magenta, many people just think of it as "hot" pink (i.e., a really intense pink). Maybe cyan/teal is less understood because there are so few things that occur naturally in Western society that are in that color range. (Such as tropical ocean shores with white sandy bottoms, or Lachenalia viridiflora or Ixia viridiflora or Puya alpestris or P. berteroniana or Strongylodon macrobotrys.) --Lee Poulsen Pasadena area, California, USDA Zone 9-10 ======================================================================== ====== CIE Color Space GREEN -- ----- --- /-- -- // \ // \ // \ // \ // \ / \ / \ / \ / \ yellow cyan / G \ / additive \ \ / colors / \ \ / (monitors) / \ \ / / \ | / / \ | / / g \ Y | / C / ------\------/ | / \--------/------ \ / | / \ / y\ / | /subtractive\ / c \ / | (orange) / colors \ / X | / (printers) X / \ | / / \ white / \ | / / \ * / \ | / / \ K / \ | / / \ (or black)/ \ | / / \ / \ | / / b\ /r \ | | / \ / \ | | / \ / \ | BLUE | / \ m / \ | | /----------------------------------------\ | | B \/ R | | M | | | | | RED +-------------------------------------------------------+ (---purples---) magenta In 1931, the CIE (Commission International de l'Eclairage) developed an international standard of color by measuring the human perception of wavelengths of visible color. The CIE "triangle" is a horseshoe shaped schematic of color wavelengths ranging from around 400 millimicrons (blue) to around 750 millimicrons (red). This is laid out on an x:y coordinate system based on measured human color perception. Pure colors are arranged on the outside of the triangle, with white light in the middle. Using this coordinate system, virtually all visible colors can be mixed. Green is placed at the top of the CIE triangle (being the middle wavelength, around 520 millimicrons), moving clockwise to red on the right, variations of magenta to violet along the bottom line, blue on the bottom left, and cyan on the mid-left. The placement of the colors is based on color temperature, and wavelengths. (Interestingly, this is the color space upon which all computer based color systems operate. RGB color is calculated from CIE Lab color, and when RGB color is converted to CMYK for printing, it first must be translated through the CIE color space.) From janemcgary@earthlink.net Tue Sep 21 13:02:05 2004 Message-Id: <5.2.1.1.0.20040920171816.0103baa0@mail.earthlink.net> From: Jane McGary Subject: Color terms Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2004 17:28:48 -0700 Lee Poulsen's explanation was very interesting and clear -- a good example of a scientist or engineer who knows how much information a general audience is likely to want! When we look at flowers, we're seeing more than the color effects Lee discussed, because the surface of a flower petal is not as flat as a piece of paper or a monitor screen. There's a discussion of this in the forthcoming NARGS Rock Garden Quarterly in an article by Alan McMurtrie on hybridizing reticulata irises. He points out that the surface cells on the iris petals are of different 3-dimensional shapes depending on species or hybrid clone, and that the way the light "bounces" back and forth between the raised pigmented structures affects the way the human eye perceives the colors, because the light "picks up" extra color as it is refracted, if that's the right word, multiple times. Another writer commented that the light under which we view a color sample affects what we see. This is an effect well known to anyone who deals with fabrics, in particular. You have to take your fabric where you can see it in daylight in order to perceive it correctly. (Some kinds of artificial lighting mimic daylight more or less effectively.) I've also read that flower colors are affected by the angle of the sun at different latitudes, so that the same flower would appear different colors in, say, Arizona and Toronto. I think a lot of flowers in the blue-pink range look better in diffuse sunlight than in brilliant sun, while bright reds tend to look better in strong sun, but this is just a personal reaction. Jane McGary Northwestern Oregon, USA From mmattus@charter.net Mon Sep 20 22:22:00 2004 Message-Id: From: Matthew Mattus Subject: my take on Color terms Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2004 22:22:25 -0400 I guess I should add some comment in here, since I frequently speak on color trends at design conferences, and am a color forecaster for trends with the Pantone Color Insititute, along with Leatrice Eiseman and the Color Carketing Group. And, in my day job, as Creative Director at Hasbro, the toy Company. So color is one of my 'things'. Color theory is complex, and it seems that after reading much of what has been said, many of you are indeed correct. Lee, of course, yes, refraction from daylight, white paper and light source quality all affect color. As with paint colors and pigment for interiors, if the grass is green outside and the sun is shining, your white walls can appear green. Awaken on a snowy morning, and suddenly everything is more bright. Color is affected both by it's projection, and by how it is lit. With organic structures, we need to consider refraction within the cells, a complex phenomenon that we can never truly recreate on paper. Why is the sky blue? Mark, yes and no. The color picking feature in Adobe Photoshop, Illustrator or any digital design program, is hardly accurate beyond the printed number. But I agree, it could be effective enough to communicate across the seas and on this site. Also to take into consideration is that digital color is backlit, and a monitor color is literally glowing. Besides, the fact that there is RGB, Gamma warnings, and CMYK to consider. I require that our designers select and proof color under controled settings, in a light room specially created for color proofing. They then send along a hard Pantone chip (or Heaxacolor, or hexachrome or Toyo - this is why there are so many color palettes in Photoshop, even the color industy can't decide who has the best selection. Some have better greens, some have better oranges. Since, no effective and agreed upon universal calabration system exisits, we still rely on a Pantone chip, but making certain that we assign an ink chip for an ink on paper project or a plastic chip for plastic, a fabric chip for fabric, you get the picture. They just don¹t make a petal chip. So, I think that you are smart to agree on simply by giving the numbers, we should be able to get close enough without the RHS chart. That's if you don't have the chart. In my business, we use transparent pantone chips on plastic for blown plastic product, fabric Pantone chips, metal chips,glass chips, enamal chips, every industry has an agreed upon system. And that tells us something. Also, and any graphic designer will tell you about the differences between a coated paper, and an uncoated paper Pantone chip. A 300 blue will seem different every single time, unless you are using a new box of chips, and they haven't faded, and you are printing on the same paper. What color is Nerine sarniensis Corusca Major? Nature invented the finest and most complex coloring system. I challenge anyone to find the Pantone chip or the RHS chip for the color of the sky that we could all agree on....and let's face it, the sky. And the sun, are the light source that we all proof on. My opinion, is to invest in the RHS color chart, it is, by far, the best and most accurate, yet, in some strange way, not even close. My take on Puce.....Our color conference color of choice is that muddy dusty pink color that they used in 1980's Rubbermaid products and is a truly light puce, we call it, simply, .....Veal. Cheers everyone Matt Mattus Worcester, MA USDA zone 5 From dells@voicenet.com Tue Sep 21 06:57:17 2004 Message-Id: From: Dell Sherk Subject: Pacific Bx 75 CLOSED Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2004 06:59:43 -0400 Dear All, Though some of the items are still available, others such as the Tecophilaea (what a surprise! :<)), Cyclamen, and Cyrtanthus are all gone. I will start processing the batch, but if you still want to order, please do so. Best wishes, Dell --Dell Sherk, Director, Pacific BX From wpoulsen@pacbell.net Tue Sep 21 13:04:41 2004 Message-Id: <504EB6DC-0BF0-11D9-A402-003065EFBD84@pacbell.net> From: Lee Poulsen Subject: Color terms Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2004 10:04:35 -0700 On Sep 21, 2004, at 8:33 AM, Rodger Whitlock wrote: > > I don't know if the CIE coordinates for the RHS color patches have > ever been worked out. > A quick Google search turned the following item. Maybe it can be found in someone's personal library or in a publicly accessible library. --Lee Poulsen Pasadena area, California, USDA Zone 9-10 ===================== A Contribution Toward Standardization of Color Names in Horticulture, Application of the Universal Color Language to the Colors of the Royal Horticultural Society's Colour Chart, by Robert D. Huse and Kenneth L. Kelly, Edited by Donald H. Voss. The American Rhododendron Society Publications Committee 1984. Although this is an old publication, it is worth knowing about. One of the tables lists the RHS Colour Chart numbers with their corresponding ISCC-NBS color names and numbers, Munsell notations, HCC colour names and numbers and CIE chromaticity coordinates (x, y) and Daylight Reflectance (Y). From magrysbo@shu.edu Tue Sep 21 18:31:30 2004 Message-Id: From: Bonaventure W Magrys Subject: refrigerators, bulbs, & ethylene gas Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2004 18:31:18 -0400 Catching up on my posts - lots of fall garden work, and many bulbs& tubers, mostly Arisaema and Pleione, going into the vegetable crisper drawer. Never a problem any year, but then I don't keep much food on hand at home anyways. Bonaventure Magrys Cliffwood Beach, NJ USA zone 7 Judy - "You from Joisey? I'm from Joisey! What exit?" >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ------------------------------ Message: 3 Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2004 14:31:54 -0400 From: "Judy Glattstein" Subject: [pbs] refrigerators, bulbs, & ethylene gas To: "Pacific Bulb Society" Message-ID: <000701c49ce4$9c0a1700$af9a32d1@oemcomputer> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Myth busters of the world, unite! This has been an accepted piece of garden lore for at least as long as I've been gardening. However, it seems we have been worrying needlessly. According to information I received from a researcher in Holland, the amount of ethylene gas given off by fruit such as apples is relatively small. Further, refrigerator temperatures of 38° to 42° Fahrenheit reduces the production of ethylene gas, and also slows the bulbs' metabolism, further limiting the influence of the gas in the flower embryo within the bulbs. He seemed to think that the "ethylene gas blights bulbs' flowers" is just not supported by the facts. I discuss this at somewhat greater length/ more detail in "Bulbs for Garden Habitats" which will, God willing and the creeks don't rise, be released by Timber Press in May 2005. Judy in New Jersey where the creek, uninfluenced by hurricanes, has not yet risen. From msittner@mcn.org Tue Sep 21 21:13:43 2004 Message-Id: <4.2.2.20040921171208.00d91a80@mail.mcn.org> From: Mary Sue Ittner Subject: Favorite Purple Bulbs--TOW Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2004 17:34:40 -0700 Hi, Where are all our Crocus, Colchicum, and Iris lovers? Don't any of you have favorite purple bulbs? As usual I am having a difficult time narrowing down my choices. So these are in alphabetical order and I'll probably end up with more than 5. 1. Brodiaea--Lots of nice species here I really appreciate, but I am especially fond of Brodiaea elegans which is a rich shiny color and of B. pallida which is pale purple with a white center 2. Geissorhiza--These are just stunning and if we can include ones that are multi-colored Geissorhiza radians and G. monanthos are show stoppers. If not, I think G. splendidissima and G. heterostyla are both very beautiful. 3. Iris--If I could easily grow more of this genus a lot would be on my list. Favorites are my own Iris douglasiana that blooms for a long time each spring where I live, some of the Pacific Coast purple hybrids, and Iris unguicularis, the latter which is not only beautiful, but blooms when there aren't a lot of other things in bloom and is always a lovely surprise 4. Leucocoryne vittae-- I really love the intricate pattern of the flowers of this species and it is the one that I have the best luck getting to grow. 5. Moraea--I have a lot of favorites in this genus. M. polystachya now in bloom is one of the first to bloom in fall and blooms for months with new flowers appearing all the time. That would be enough, but it also has large flowers with nice markings. Interesting in our digital pictures that it looks many different colors under different light situations. M. gigandra and loubseri do not bloom as long and the latter sometimes skips years, but when they do bloom they are both extraordinary with their gorgeous markings. 6. Triteleia--Did I say 5? I have a number of different forms of Triteleia laxa I'm very fond of, the North Coast ones that are shorter and darker purple and the one called Sierra Giant that has shiny petals and large flowers. It is long blooming, reliable, good in a pot or the ground. T. bridgesii is also very nice with its white shiny center. Oh no, I left out Delphinium. D. hesperium, parryi (which borders on and sometimes looks blue), and decorum are three great purple ones. Come on, won't some of the rest of you offer some favorites. Mary Sue Mary Sue Ittner California's North Coast Wet mild winters with occasional frost Dry mild summers From khixson@nu-world.com Wed Sep 22 03:14:22 2004 Message-Id: <3.0.3.32.20040922001409.00937c1c@pop.nu-world.com> From: Kenneth Hixson Subject: color names Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2004 00:14:09 -0700 Lee- >A Contribution Toward Standardization of Color Names in Horticulture, >Application of the Universal Color Language to the Colors of the Royal >Horticultural Society's Colour Chart, by Robert D. Huse and Kenneth L. >Kelly, Edited by Donald H. Voss. The American Rhododendron Society >Publications Committee 1984. Although this is an old publication, it is >worth knowing about. One of the tables lists the RHS Colour Chart >numbers with their corresponding ISCC-NBS color names and numbers, >Munsell notations, HCC colour names and numbers and CIE chromaticity >coordinates (x, y) and Daylight Reflectance (Y). This is still available from the American Rhododendron Society @ $15.00--but to members only, the only item in their booklist so designated. (ARS QB Summer 04 P181) From janemcgary@earthlink.net Wed Sep 22 18:50:53 2004 Message-Id: <5.2.1.1.0.20040922081359.0108ab98@mail.earthlink.net> From: Jane McGary Subject: Favorite Purple Bulbs--TOW Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2004 08:39:00 -0700 I'm going to assume that "purple" refers to deep violet -- the color of the darker Dutch crocuses -- rather than bluish red or pale colors that we might call "lavender." Given that, the shiny violet of big crocuses is also found in some forms of Crocus vernus, the ancestor of those large selections, which is not so showy but less prone to flop over in bad weather, since its tube is shorter. My favorite is one I bought under the name 'Haarlem Gem'; Antoine Hoog told me it is not that clone (which has grayish outer segments), but just a good form of C. vernus ssp. vernus. Similar colors can be found in the normally paler C. tommasinianus, the rich violets being available in clones such as 'Whitewell Purple'. I share Mary Sue's enthusiasm for the gleaming, large-flowered Brodiaea elegans. Dichelostemma congesta can also be a rich color, though not always. I have seen a plant said to be the natural hybrid Dichelostemma x venusta that had flowers of deep red-violet. (Lately we have seen the Dutch selection 'Pink Diamond' introduced and said to be this same cross, but I doubt this, having heard the story of its introduction from the original collector; I suspect 'Pink Diamond' is either a variant of D. ida-maia, or a hybrid of that species and D. volubile.) I think the best "purple" in the bulbous irises is to be seen in selections of Iris latifolia, the "English" iris (it actually comes from Spain). It resembles "Dutch" (hybrids of Spanish species) irises in form but flowers later and is more winter-hardy. Many selections of Reticulata iris species and hybrids are available, most of them in the blue-violet range but some more red-violet, such as 'George'. Many fritillarias are described as violet or purple, but the color is not bright, so although I love the plants I wouldn't offer them as shining examples of color. The modifiers "dusky," "brownish," and "muddy" are often used along with "purple" for these flowers. And let's not forget the genus Allium, which offers many showy species, especially from Central Asia, in bright violet. Most of them are tall plants for the border. There are purple Alstroemerias, most of which are quite tender. The one I grow is A. phillippii, and it is truly gorgeous -- a small plant with large flowers of lavender boldly streaked in deep violet -- but I have to remember to pull the pot out of the frame and carry it into the greenhouse when deep frost threatens. Jane McGary Northwestern Oregon, USA From jimmckenney@starpower.net Wed Sep 22 17:44:17 2004 Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.20040922174536.00a1bea0@pop.starpower.net> From: Jim McKenney Subject: Favorite Purple Bulbs--TOW Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2004 17:45:36 -0400 At 05:34 PM 9/21/2004 -0700, Mary Sue Ittner wrote: >Come on, won't some of the rest of you offer some favorites. OK, I'll bite - if gingerly. It was surprisingly hard to come up with five purple flowered bulbs. The only ones which spring to mind immediately are crocus and garden hyacinths. Some garden tulips have purplish colors, too. Here's one list: 1. Crocus vernus: several strong purple cultivars are to be found among the Dutch crocus. Each year when these bloom I'm surprised at just how big the individual flowers are. Some of these have grown in this garden for between thirty and forty years without attention. I think we're getting our money's worth here. The saffron crocus and its relatives provide - rather stingily - a very good purple for the autumn. 2. Garden hyacinths offer a few purple cultivars, too, although a comparison of the crocus purple and the hyacinth purple may get you thinking about just what this term purple means. 3. At least two purplish colors are to be seen in some garden tulips. One of these colors is a very red purple, the other is a dull blue purple. This may be a good place to point out that forced tulips and garden grown tulips of the same clone do not always show the same color. Many modern tulips were developed for the forced cut flower industry, the Triumphs especially, and the photographs in the catalogs are apt to show the forced cut flower colors rather than the garden colors. Thus what you see in the catalog may not be what you get in the garden - but not because there has been any monkey business going on. 4. Glads: it's interesting to consider the history of the garden glad in this country. During the period between the First and Second World Wars, it really bloomed as one of if not the most popular garden flowers. But then something happened to pretty much end that: that something is thrips. Too bad: purple is a rare color in the summer garden here, and purple in an inflorescence like that of the glads is just about unknown here. There are very handsome purple glads available now. I saw a neignborhood garden last year which was full of white flowers and purple, blueish-purple and blueish-white glads. This made for a very beautiful and, for these parts, unusual effect. Incidentally, the local grocery stores sell cut flower glads of an intense, dark velvety purple unlike that of any glad I've grown in my garden. Ont thing about thrips and glads: if the glads are planted early, they are likely to bloom before the thrip populations explode and will be beautiful. Corms which survive the winter in the ground also generally escape the thrips. Late planted corms are not worth the effort here. Gladiolus callianthus (our old friend Acidanthera) apparently is not much bothered by thrips. 5. Iris reticulata "old original", which will stand in for all the wonderful purple iris. "Old original" was planted in either 1960 or 1961, and has carried on since. It's about as purple as anything in the garden. It's not the red-purple seen in such reticulate iris cultivars as 'krelagii' or 'Pauline' (or is it 'Paulette'?). "Old original" also has the scent of Viola odorata. 6. And finally - I did say gingerly - Kaempferia rotunda. After putting my list together, it somehow seemed mundane compared to Mary Sue's list: so I've spiced mine up a bit with some ginger. Color wise, this is really stretching things a bit: the flower is hardly purple, but there is a bit of purple in it. Although hardy near a wall here, it is better in a pot so it can be bought in and the fragrance appreciated. Jim McKenney jimmckenney@starpower.net Montgomery County, Maryland, USA, USDA zone 7, where the color purple, both literally and figuratively, is much appreciated. From johnbryan@worldnet.att.net Wed Sep 22 18:54:40 2004 Message-Id: <415201F6.524256FC@worldnet.att.net> From: John Bryan Subject: Favorite Purple Bulbs--TOW Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2004 15:51:34 -0700 Dear All: I just wonder why no one has mentioned Dahlias? Cheers, John E. Bryan Jane McGary wrote: > > I'm going to assume that "purple" refers to deep violet -- the color of the > darker Dutch crocuses -- rather than bluish red or pale colors that we > might call "lavender." > > Given that, the shiny violet of big crocuses is also found in some forms of > Crocus vernus, the ancestor of those large selections, which is not so > showy but less prone to flop over in bad weather, since its tube is > shorter. My favorite is one I bought under the name 'Haarlem Gem'; Antoine > Hoog told me it is not that clone (which has grayish outer segments), but > just a good form of C. vernus ssp. vernus. Similar colors can be found in > the normally paler C. tommasinianus, the rich violets being available in > clones such as 'Whitewell Purple'. > > I share Mary Sue's enthusiasm for the gleaming, large-flowered Brodiaea > elegans. Dichelostemma congesta can also be a rich color, though not > always. I have seen a plant said to be the natural hybrid Dichelostemma x > venusta that had flowers of deep red-violet. (Lately we have seen the Dutch > selection 'Pink Diamond' introduced and said to be this same cross, but I > doubt this, having heard the story of its introduction from the original > collector; I suspect 'Pink Diamond' is either a variant of D. ida-maia, or > a hybrid of that species and D. volubile.) > > I think the best "purple" in the bulbous irises is to be seen in selections > of Iris latifolia, the "English" iris (it actually comes from Spain). It > resembles "Dutch" (hybrids of Spanish species) irises in form but flowers > later and is more winter-hardy. Many selections of Reticulata iris species > and hybrids are available, most of them in the blue-violet range but some > more red-violet, such as 'George'. > > Many fritillarias are described as violet or purple, but the color is not > bright, so although I love the plants I wouldn't offer them as shining > examples of color. The modifiers "dusky," "brownish," and "muddy" are often > used along with "purple" for these flowers. > > And let's not forget the genus Allium, which offers many showy species, > especially from Central Asia, in bright violet. Most of them are tall > plants for the border. > > There are purple Alstroemerias, most of which are quite tender. The one I > grow is A. phillippii, and it is truly gorgeous -- a small plant with large > flowers of lavender boldly streaked in deep violet -- but I have to > remember to pull the pot out of the frame and carry it into the greenhouse > when deep frost threatens. > > Jane McGary > Northwestern Oregon, USA > > _______________________________________________ > pbs mailing list > pbs@lists.ibiblio.org > http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php From jimmckenney@starpower.net Wed Sep 22 20:29:14 2004 Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.20040922203035.009e4750@pop.starpower.net> From: Jim McKenney Subject: Favorite Purple Bulbs--TOW Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2004 20:30:35 -0400 At 03:51 PM 9/22/2004 -0700, you wrote: >Dear All: > >I just wonder why no one has mentioned Dahlias? Cheers, John E. Bryan John, I was going to mention Dahlias, but only to say that I have never seen one which I would call purple. There seem to be plenty of purple ones in the catalogs, but not in gardens hereabouts. Weather may have something to do with this. The local Dahlia show takes place this weekend: I check out the big variety there to see if anyone has a purple Dahlia. Jane, help me calibrate my color sense: what color do you see in Clematis x jackmani? And can you give examples of familiar flowers which are purple? I've never seen a purple Allium, although I've seen lots I would call magenta (and to my eyes, this is where the "purple" Dahlia fall). And what in the world is "mineral violet" - is it a term from the color charts? One list uses it, and I can't believe that more than a very few people have any idea what it means. Jim McKenney jimmckenney@starpower.net Montgomery County, Maryland, USA, USDA zone 7, where I may have to smash a few Murex (or Purpura if I can find them) this weekend if Jane doesn't straighten me out. From msittner@mcn.org Wed Sep 22 23:59:16 2004 Message-Id: <4.2.2.20040922204626.01e65d80@mail.mcn.org> From: Mary Sue Ittner Subject: Favorite Purple Bulbs--TOW Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2004 20:56:42 -0700 Hi All, I visited the Mendocino Coast Botanical Gardens this August when the Dahlias were in bloom and took a lot of pictures. They were really beautiful and had a lot of admirers (as did the tuberous Begonias). I wasn't sure whether or not to add them to the wiki since there are Dahlia pictures on so many web pages and there must be thousands of cultivars. I wasn't sure when there were tags whether they corresponded with the plants behind them so most of the ones I saw I was not sure of the names. I've added a few pictures of some that we might try to identify by color (shades between blue and red that we might call ?). I also added one called Ballerina just because it was so pretty. It's not even faintly purple. http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki/index.php/DahliaCultivars I invite people who look at them to tell us what color you think some of them are. I have a dictionary that describes purple as a dark blend of red and blue, but for the purpose of our discussion of favorites I think it can include lighter blends of red and blue since I doubt we will discuss this combination again. Mary Sue From totototo@pacificcoast.net Mon Sep 20 11:12:42 2004 Message-Id: From: "Rodger Whitlock" Subject: the color of mauve Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2004 08:18:04 -700 On 19 Sep 04 at 7:41, Judy Glattstein wrote: > Marco Polo Stuffano used to describe this color as "old lady's > underdraws." (? spelling) You have to be of a certain age, with a > grandmother who wore these cotton panties with legs. Think of closer > fitting knit boxer shorts, with a ribbed pattern, in a sort of > bluish flesh pink. That particular color is "isabelline", so called after Queen Isabella of Ferdinand and Isabella fame. She swore a vow not to change her body linen until the Moors were driven from Spain, and that's the resultant color of her undies. I call it "old lady underwear pink". Lilium x testaceum is sometimes described as "isabelline". Mauve is pale purple: it is to purple as pink is to red. And since you are all wondering, puce is not vomit green or muddy brown or anything gross like that. It's the French for "flea", and means the color of a flea: purplish brown or brownish purple. Notice, btw, we define these secondary color terms by reference to more fundamental colors, in this case pink, violet/purple, purple or brown. IIRC, English has the following basic color names: red, blue, green, yellow, orange, purple, black, white, gray, brown, pink. -- Rodger Whitlock Victoria, British Columbia, Canada Maritime Zone 8, a cool Mediterranean climate on beautiful Vancouver Island From Zonneveld@rulbim.leidenuniv.nl Thu Sep 23 03:53:13 2004 Message-Id: <41529CF8.20729.1081CE@localhost> From: "zonneveld" Subject: ethylene Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2004 09:52:56 +0200 It maybe garden lore but I heard the following story from about 30 years ago . Someone placed his orchids during his holliday in a friend big aplle store ( temp?) All his plants were ruined/killed on return. Ben J.M.Zonneveld Institute of Biology,Leiden University, Clusius lab Wassenaarse weg 64, 2333 AL Leiden, The Netherlands Zonneveld@rulbim.Leidenuniv.NL Fax: +31-71-5274999. min temp -10C (15F) From jimmckenney@starpower.net Thu Sep 23 10:31:08 2004 Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.20040923103129.009ef1e0@pop.starpower.net> From: Jim McKenney Subject: Favorite Purple Bulbs--TOW Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2004 10:31:29 -0400 At 08:56 PM 9/22/2004 -0700, Mary Sue Ittner wrote: >I invite people who look at them to tell us what color you think some of >them are. On my monitor, pink and magenta - maybe by stretching a bit, violet. Cosmos bipinnatus colors, really. Not one is even remotely purple. Jim McKenney jimmckenney@starpower.net Montgomery County, Maryland, USA, USDA zone 7, where if Dahlia 'Purple Joy' is blue, I'm a tall, dark and handsome twenty-seven year old hunk. From jshields104@insightbb.com Thu Sep 23 11:26:29 2004 Message-Id: <5.1.0.14.2.20040923101730.01d98398@mail.insightbb.com> From: "J.E. Shields" Subject: TOW Purple flowers Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2004 10:25:41 -0500 Hi all, Well, hard to say....., but the Colchicum are in full flower right now, they are one of my favorite plants, and sometimes they look purple, sort of..... We don't have many crocuses growing here, to rodents like them too well, but when we have them, we love the purple ones. Crocus tommasinianus is rodent-resistant and has some very pretty varieties. We have some purple daylilies that we love very much. To the eye, they are a red-purple in general, but they photograph as red or dark red generally. Some good ones are 'Watership Down' and 'Mephistopheles'. We have a few of the Brodiaea with a bluish purple color that we like very much. The commonest one is Triteleia laxa 'Koenigin Fabiola'. Convincing purple flowers are hard to come by. Jim Shields in central Indiana ************************************************* Jim Shields USDA Zone 5 Shields Gardens, Ltd. P.O. Box 92 WWW: http://www.shieldsgardens.com/ Westfield, Indiana 46074, USA Tel. ++1-317-867-3344 or toll-free 1-866-449-3344 in USA From rarebulbs@earthlink.net Thu Sep 23 11:41:30 2004 Message-Id: <001501c4a183$ca130b90$c8c779a5@DJ9SK221> From: "diana chapman" Subject: TOW Purple flowers Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2004 08:41:26 -0700 > > Convincing purple flowers are hard to come by. How about Calostemma purpureum - a true plum purple. Diana Telos From johnbryan@worldnet.att.net Thu Sep 23 12:33:56 2004 Message-Id: <4152FA37.A2EC77D5@worldnet.att.net> From: John Bryan Subject: Favorite Purple Bulbs--TOW Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2004 09:30:47 -0700 Great Pictures! Purple Joy, is to me purple, but others might not agree. Perhaps my monitor is off. Is it possible to put on the wiki a chart of color ranges so that, we all see more or less the same colors? In other words have a 'check chart' posted? Perhaps with just the basic spectrum? I do not know if this or is not practical or possible, but it might be worth trying seeing we all seem to have different ideas of colors. Cheers, john e. Bryan Mary Sue Ittner wrote: > > Hi All, > > I visited the Mendocino Coast Botanical Gardens this August when the > Dahlias were in bloom and took a lot of pictures. They were really > beautiful and had a lot of admirers (as did the tuberous Begonias). I > wasn't sure whether or not to add them to the wiki since there are Dahlia > pictures on so many web pages and there must be thousands of cultivars. I > wasn't sure when there were tags whether they corresponded with the plants > behind them so most of the ones I saw I was not sure of the names. I've > added a few pictures of some that we might try to identify by color (shades > between blue and red that we might call ?). I also added one called > Ballerina just because it was so pretty. It's not even faintly purple. > > http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki/index.php/DahliaCultivars > > I invite people who look at them to tell us what color you think some of > them are. > > I have a dictionary that describes purple as a dark blend of red and blue, > but for the purpose of our discussion of favorites I think it can include > lighter blends of red and blue since I doubt we will discuss this > combination again. > > Mary Sue > > _______________________________________________ > pbs mailing list > pbs@lists.ibiblio.org > http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php From mysticgardn@yahoo.com Thu Sep 23 14:03:08 2004 Message-Id: <20040923180307.25066.qmail@web40504.mail.yahoo.com> From: Ann Marie Subject: Bulb Predators / Raised Beds Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2004 11:03:07 -0700 (PDT) What is "plunge" Briefly you make a structure, lay hardware cloth on the bottom, add gravel on top, place plastic pots in the order you want, add plunge around them and then plant your bulbs in plastic pots of the same size to nest in the pots in the bed. Ann Marie So. California, San Gabriel Valley, Zone 21 (Sunset Western Garden book) , influenced by both marine and interior air(Santa Ana winds). This makes it perfect for Citrus trees and most So African plants. I collect belladonnas, oxalis, criniums, amaryllis, palms, epiphyllums, succulents and other south african bulbs. email me at mysticgardn@yahoo.com for list of bulbs and plants for sale. For home and garden sculptures go to http://www.rjunkdrawer.com --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - 50x more storage than other providers! From robertwerra@sbcglobal.net Thu Sep 23 14:16:41 2004 Message-Id: <20040923181641.32125.qmail@web81008.mail.yahoo.com> From: Robert Werra Subject: TOW Favorite purple Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2004 11:16:41 -0700 (PDT) Dear all; For several years I had a fantastic purple velvet Calochortus Venustus. It was wine colored in between Cabernet Sauvignon and Pinot Noir. I will always miss it. I think of it when I have my daily healthful glass of wine. Sincerely. Bob Werra MD-Northern California From mark@marksgardenplants.com Thu Sep 23 18:31:37 2004 Message-Id: <00c301c4a1bd$1ba510f0$29d39851@markp5xpcz3p3u> From: "Mark Smyth" Subject: Bulb Predators / Raised Beds Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2004 23:31:44 +0100 The pots are usually plunged, to just below their rim, in sand Mark N Ireland > What is "plunge" > > Briefly you make a structure, lay hardware cloth on the bottom, add gravel on top, > place plastic pots in the order you want, add plunge around them and then > plant your bulbs in plastic pots of the same size to nest in the pots in > the bed. From susanann@sbcglobal.net Thu Sep 23 21:20:24 2004 Message-Id: From: Susan Hayek Subject: Favorite Purple Bulbs--TOW Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2004 18:20:53 -0700 **We have a beautiful deep purple dahlia that I bought my husband from Old Garden Nursery. I can't get a decent picture of it. How I see it, is not how my camera sees it. I just looked it up and it is Thomas Edison (1939). It is much more purple than shown on the Wiki. http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki/files/Dahlia_ThomasEdison_MCBG.jpg Even the photo from Old Garden Nursery doesn't show the depth of color. http://www.oldhousegardens.com/bigFlwr.asp?Cat=tomEd I have Ballerina, or one close to it, and it is beautiful (tho' not purple, as Mary Sue said), and I have the small purple and white bicolor that Mary Sue has on the wiki (We have many of the ones pictured). http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki/files/Dahlia_MCBG1.JPG I also bought, when we moved up here last year, a dark winey purple Dierama, the most beautiful one I have ever seen, really dark, really purplish. The dogs ate it. I save a few corms and replanted them, but it'll take them awhile to adjust and flower again. At 8:56 PM -0700 9/22/04, Mary Sue Ittner wrote: >Hi All, > >I visited the Mendocino Coast Botanical Gardens this August when the >Dahlias were in bloom and took a lot of pictures. They were really >beautiful and had a lot of admirers (as did the tuberous Begonias). >I wasn't sure whether or not to add them to the wiki since there are >Dahlia pictures on so many web pages and there must be thousands of >cultivars. I wasn't sure when there were tags whether they >corresponded with the plants behind them so most of the ones I saw I >was not sure of the names. I've added a few pictures of some that we >might try to identify by color (shades between blue and red that we >might call ?). I also added one called Ballerina just because it was >so pretty. It's not even faintly purple. > >http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki/index.php/DahliaCultivars -- susan, who is..... owned by Jasper & Schubert the Standard Poodles, Gracie the Rhodesian, Pup-Quiz the Basenji and their Basenji brother, Jones.... on the North Coast of CA, USA Zone 9 susanann@sbcglobal.net, copyright 2004 From totototo@pacificcoast.net Tue Sep 21 11:28:36 2004 Message-Id: From: "Rodger Whitlock" Subject: Color terms Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2004 08:33:50 -700 On 20 Sep 04 at 9:06, John Bryan wrote: > Prior to the current RHS Color Chart, the old version circa 1950's, > also had descriptions of the color, these I found most helpful when > writing descriptions of lilies. They referenced fruits, vegetables, > etc., which conjured easily understood descriptions, ideal when > writing descriptions. Such a chart might be less expensive than the > new color chart, and perhaps as, or even more useful. There have been two editions of of the RHS chart, the second in two printings. The first edition was in the 1930's, a box of loose sheets. The colors are named rather than numbered. The second edition, first printing, is the same as what's now on the market, but without the holes in the middle of the color patches: several little booklets of color patches joined at one corner so you can fan them out. I think this second edition was first published around 1970. The second printing of the second edition was published in late 19080's more or less. It has holes in the middle of the color patches. When it was published, there was an article about it in the RHS Journal and they remarked how very difficult it was to prepare inks that accurately matched the previous edition. The old 1930's one is obsolete; it does not cover the same gamut of colors as the later edition. There is a cross reference between the numbered colors of the later edition and the named colors of the earlier edition. In addition to these, there is the very old French "Repertoire du Coleurs", now about 100 years old. I don't know if the CIE coordinates for the RHS color patches have ever been worked out. -- Rodger Whitlock Victoria, British Columbia, Canada Maritime Zone 8, a cool Mediterranean climate on beautiful Vancouver Island From Zonneveld@rulbim.leidenuniv.nl Fri Sep 24 03:26:17 2004 Message-Id: <4153E829.213.2C3982@localhost> From: "zonneveld" Subject: colror scheme for red Date: Fri, 24 Sep 2004 09:26:01 +0200 I am abit late but if you think you have problems with colours...... As a nonnative spaker I wrestled ( and still do ) with red. I made the following schemae. Starting from white, yellow or blue, I added more and more red Do you think there is any truth In this scheme?Or would you place some colours on another place or add even more ( I dont hope so). White+ Red: pink rose cyclamen fuchsia carmine cherry Yellow + Red: orange salmon lobster-red tomato- red crimson vermilion cranberry garnet scarlet =ruby=cinnabar=magenta? current-red poster-red burgundy wine-red Blue + Red: lavender lilac aster-violet mauve maroon violet amethyst purple Ben J.M.Zonneveld Institute of Biology,Leiden University, Clusius lab Wassenaarse weg 64, 2333 AL Leiden, The Netherlands Zonneveld@rulbim.Leidenuniv.NL Fax: +31-71-5274999. min temp -10C (15F) From jshields104@insightbb.com Fri Sep 24 09:34:07 2004 Message-Id: <5.1.0.14.2.20040924083137.01dc4dd8@mail.insightbb.com> From: "J.E. Shields" Subject: Favorite Purple Bulbs--TOW Date: Fri, 24 Sep 2004 08:34:06 -0500 Hi all, I forgot some of my favorite spring and early summer purple flowers: The hardy Eurasian Gladiolus species! Gladilus imbricatus and G. caucasicuus are probably my favorites, with GG. communis, illyricus, and italicus following closely. Jim Shields in central Indiana ************************************************* Jim Shields USDA Zone 5 Shields Gardens, Ltd. P.O. Box 92 WWW: http://www.shieldsgardens.com/ Westfield, Indiana 46074, USA Tel. ++1-317-867-3344 or toll-free 1-866-449-3344 in USA From jimmckenney@starpower.net Fri Sep 24 14:37:43 2004 Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.20040924143644.007e2a10@pop.starpower.net> From: Jim McKenney Subject: Favorite Purple Bulbs--TOW Date: Fri, 24 Sep 2004 14:36:44 -0400 Our discussion of the color purple has now tinted my domestic life. I live with my mother, who, although she loves gardens, plants and flowers, will take any shortcut available to avoid using a botanical name. The usual dodge is to point and say "the red one" or "the yellow one" and so on. Usually it works. But since the garden is densely planted, and since (warning: VBG ahead) my exquisitely refined taste, artfully nuanced color sensibilities with nary a color clash in sight, and love of harmony - domestic and otherwise- have resulted in the placement of many flowers of roughly the same hue and chroma nearby one another, there is bound to be confusion. While trying to get my attention to see a bird the other day, she called out "look, over by the purple thing". I looked. To my eyes, there was not a speck of purple in sight. "Where, where?" I kept asking. Again and again came the increasingly more annoyed reply: "by the purple thing". Each time, her call was rejoined by a similarly more annoyed "what purple thing? I don't see any purple thing". The bird was long gone by the time I figured out that the "purple thing" was a Lythrum. To my eyes, Lythrum is magenta, pure and simple. I told a friend this story soon afterward, and got no sympathy from him. "You, of all people, should have known that Lythrum is called Purple Loosestrife, not Magenta Loosestrife." Well, I'll have you know that I think most of you are color blind! And in this garden, it's not known as Purple Loosestrife, it's Lythrum. And tomorrow I'm off to the local Dahlia show to critique their color assignments. And I'll bet you a blue Dahlia I don't see one, nor a good purple one, either. But there will be plenty of magenta. Jim McKenney jimmckenney@starpower.net Montgomery County, Maryland, USA, USDA zone 7, where I forgot to mention that the reason Purple Loosestrife is called Lythrum in this garden has nothing to do with the color deception suggested by the common name; no, it's because the loosestrife part is obviously wrong. Not only did I not see the bird, I had to make my own supper that night! From voltaire@islandnet.com Fri Sep 24 15:08:59 2004 Message-Id: From: Diane Whitehead Subject: Favorite Purple Bulbs--TOW Date: Fri, 24 Sep 2004 12:08:56 -0700 > The hardy Eurasian Gladiolus species! > >Gladilus imbricatus and G. caucasicuus are probably my favorites, >with GG. communis, illyricus, and italicus following closely. I concur, as these are the only purple bulbs I grow. But which are which? I guess I should grow a reference collection from wild seed. -- Diane Whitehead Victoria, British Columbia, Canada maritime zone 8 cool mediterranean climate (dry summer, rainy winter - 68 cm annually) sandy soil From jshields104@insightbb.com Fri Sep 24 17:06:25 2004 Message-Id: <5.1.0.14.2.20040924160340.01e63820@pop.indy.net> From: "J.E. Shields" Subject: Favorite Purple Bulbs--TOW Date: Fri, 24 Sep 2004 16:06:19 -0500 Hi Diane, I guess my references are collectors -- imbricatus originally from Janos Ruksans; italicus and illyricus from Jane McGary; but where did the G. caucasicus come from? Are there any other hardy Eurasian species in cultivation of from seed collectors? Jim Shields in central Indiana At 12:08 PM 9/24/2004 -0700, you wrote: >> The hardy Eurasian Gladiolus species! >> >>Gladilus imbricatus and G. caucasicuus are probably my favorites, with >>GG. communis, illyricus, and italicus following closely. > >I concur, as these are the only purple bulbs I grow. But which are >which? I guess I should grow a reference collection from wild seed. > >-- >Diane Whitehead Victoria, British Columbia, Canada >maritime zone 8 >cool mediterranean climate (dry summer, rainy winter - 68 cm annually) >sandy soil >_______________________________________________ >pbs mailing list >pbs@lists.ibiblio.org >http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php ************************************************* Jim Shields USDA Zone 5 Shields Gardens, Ltd. P.O. Box 92 WWW: http://www.shieldsgardens.com/ Westfield, Indiana 46074, USA Tel. ++1-317-867-3344 or toll-free 1-866-449-3344 in USA From jimmckenney@starpower.net Fri Sep 24 17:11:14 2004 Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.20040924171015.00a1e600@pop.starpower.net> From: Jim McKenney Subject: colror scheme for red Date: Fri, 24 Sep 2004 17:10:15 -0400 At 09:26 AM 9/24/2004 +0200, you wrote: >I am abit late but if you think you have problems with colours...... >As a nonnative spaker I wrestled ( and still do ) with red. I made the >following schemae. Starting from white, yellow or blue, I added >more and more red Do you think there is any truth In this >scheme?Or would you place some colours on another place or add >even more ( I dont hope so). Hi, Ben. You are taking the same approach I did when I first started to try to seriously understand colors and color names. And as you have already discovered, it's surprisingly complicated. In the discussion which follows, I've relied on traditional subtractive color theory - the rules which deal with pigments. But keep in mind that for some applications the additive theory would be more appropriate. In short, your lists confuse two things: 1) what happens when a color is combined with white and 2) what happens when two or more different colors are combined. To understand "pink", for instance, you have to understand the difference. Redo your list. Group the colors first in terms of two primary colors (white is not a primary color). In other words, set up the groups red+blue, red+yellow, Yellow+blue. Then notice the "in-between" colors: between red and blue, purple; between red and yellow, orange; between yellow and blue, green. That gives you six colors which are widely recognized. Now vary those colors by adding more or less white. That gives you two sets of colors: primary colors made paler by the addition of white make up one group. The other group is made up of the secondary colors made paler by the addition of white. In a sensible world, all of these colors should retain the name of the primary or secondary color on which they are based. But that's not the way it works. Consider the term "pink": it's not simply the paler reds. It includes paler reds some of which include a blue/purple element, and some of which include a yellow/orange element. Presumably the number of potential combinations is unlimited even at this simple level. So far, we have considered only the primary and secondary colors and their paler derivatives. As you try to assign names to those colors, you will discover that already we are in deep water. The level of complexity really jumps when only three rather than two colors are involved, and that's just the beginning. With these things in mind, let's go back and look at your groups: >White+ Red: pink rose cyclamen fuchsia >carmine cherry In this group, you looked at the combinations resulting from the mixing of red and white. Remember, white is not a primary color. And see the warning about pink above. Rose (less so) and fuchsia (more so) have an element of blue, and so are not derived from the simple combination of red and white - you would have to add some blue to get these. We have discussed cherry (cerise) in the related posts; it is too imprecise to be used without careful definition. See the discussion of carmine below, with crimson. You will have to tell me what color cyclamen is. >Yellow + Red: orange salmon lobster-red tomato- >red crimson vermilion cranberry garnet >scarlet =ruby=cinnabar=magenta? current-red >poster-red burgundy wine-red This one starts out fine: red + yellow give the secondary color orange. Tomato red and scarlet fit in here well. The others are more complex than the simple mixing of yellow and red. Cranberry (ripe cranberries; earlier they are red-orange), garnet, ruby, burgundy, wine red all agree in being rich, dark colors - very complex colors, hardly simple combinations of primary or secondary colors. Crimson and carmine are alike in being derived, historically, from the same natural source, kermes. Both are blue rather than yellow reds, so-to-speak. But carmine came to be derived from cochineal, and of the two is the brighter. A similar situation exists with vermilion and cinnabar: historically, both are mercuric sulphide. But cinnabar typically refers to a duller color than vermilion. Here in eastern North America we have a bird called the painted bunting: it has big patches of vermilion and blue in its color and is an amazing sight. I don't know the term poster red (is it a British term?), and I have seen currents in photographs only (the photograph on the jelly jar!). As for lobsters, I think they vary a lot depending on their source and the recipe used. ; ) >Blue + Red: lavender lilac aster-violet mauve >maroon violet amethyst purple The only one which does not exactly fit here is maroon, a color term which does not have a precise meaning. It's usually a very dark red, but a red with purple and brown in it. Whatever it is, it is not simply a combination of red and blue. Ben, when you write "As a nonnative spaker I wrestled ( and still do ) with red" you needn't apologize. Native speakers of English do not agree about these things, either. Perhaps some of the responses to this post will demonstrate that. Jim McKenney jimmckenney@starpower.net You got off to a good start by listing colors which result from the combination of only two primary colors. Most of us seem to agree about these pretty much. But to my eyes, some of your suggestons involve a third primary color. First, let's look at your white + red list. White is not a primary color, so strictly speaking (to my way of thinking anyway) all of the colors which result from combining red and white are properly called red - darker or lighter, but still red. However, since most people think of pink and red as different colors, we have already hit a bump: common usage does not agree with me! Am I wrong that for most of us, "pink" is the generic term for such combinations? In fact, so strongly is pink established as a commonly recognized color that even people otherwise insensitive to color are apt to see the difference between blue pinks and yellow pinks. So, we started with red and white, recognized the importance of pink as a distinct color in common usage, and then noted the variations in pink as it varies to the blue (magenta falls here, so does rose; historically, fuchsia [fuchsine] and magenta are the same thing, aren't they?) or the yellow side of the color wheel (salmon falls here). So already we have lots of complications, and we are discussing only one primary color, red, dulled or brightened with white and a touch of the colors on either side of red on the color wheel. Crimson (etymologically from kermes, an insect which yields a purplish-red) is a full, strong red with a bit of blue in it. Think nineteenth century red Hybrid Perpetual roses, or red pre-Pernetiana garden roses in general. Carmine (also kermes etymologically, but eventually cochineal in fact, a brighter red) is harder to define, and in fact the book definitions have it going off into the blue direction and the yellow direction (scarlet). Most agree that carmine is lighter and brighter than crimson. Vermilion and cinnabar should, chemically, be the same thing, since they are both mercuric sulphide. But the terms are used differently: vermillion is the color seen in the Painted Bunting, an amazing color. If you've never seen a painted bunting, the color is to red as the color of the bluebird is to blue. Cinnabar is to my eyes duller - more like the redder corals (not to be confused with the color term coral, which is less red). But two of the others you mention, namely rose and fuchsia, have a bit of blue, fuchsia more so than rose. >White+ Red: pink rose cyclamen fuchsia >carmine cherry > >Yellow + Red: orange salmon lobster-red tomato- >red crimson vermilion cranberry garnet >scarlet =ruby=cinnabar=magenta? current-red >poster-red burgundy wine-red > >Blue + Red: lavender lilac aster-violet mauve >maroon violet amethyst purple >Ben J.M.Zonneveld >Institute of Biology,Leiden University, Clusius lab >Wassenaarse weg 64, 2333 AL Leiden, The Netherlands >Zonneveld@rulbim.Leidenuniv.NL >Fax: +31-71-5274999. min temp -10C (15F) >_______________________________________________ >pbs mailing list >pbs@lists.ibiblio.org >http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php > From jimmckenney@starpower.net Fri Sep 24 17:30:54 2004 Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.20040924172958.009f1e10@pop.starpower.net> From: Jim McKenney Subject: (no subject) Date: Fri, 24 Sep 2004 17:29:58 -0400 Dear All: I have received an email message from one Prof. Jan Burczyk of Poland who has expressed an interest in obtaining donations of seed or plants of Cardiocrinum giganteum. I will not have either seed or plants available from my own garden this fall. However, I do expect to have seed of Cardiocrinum cathayanum. If any of you would like to help Prof. Burczyk, please contact me privately. Jim McKenney jimmckenney@starpower.net From msittner@mcn.org Fri Sep 24 19:18:19 2004 Message-Id: <4.2.2.20040924155909.01e49cf0@mail.mcn.org> From: Mary Sue Ittner Subject: Favorite Purple Bulbs--TOW Date: Fri, 24 Sep 2004 16:16:18 -0700 Hi, I didn't include Babiana in my favorite list even though it is a wonderful plant in my garden, blooming a long time in winter and bringing me a lot of pleasure. And there are some nice purple ones like Babiana framesii. Susan's note about how different the purple color seems in different photographs of Dahlias is true for Babianas. I kept experimenting with the digital camera and Paint Shop Pro to see if I could get a color that looked like what we were seeing. One of my photographic friends says the reflection from the blue sky comes to play when you are taking pictures. I have added two pictures of B. framesii described as dark blue to purple by Manning and Goldblatt. http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki/index.php/Babiana It's a really nice Babiana and I recently sent a few extra corms to Dell for the BX. One of the pictures is how the camera sees it (more blue) and the other more like we saw it (more purple) with some tinkering of white balance and manipulation afterwards. Since everyone's monitor is a bit different none of you may see it as I see it on my computer, but perhaps you can still detect a difference. Ironically when I used to use my camera for taking pictures of my babianas some of the purple ones came out looking pink which wasn't right at all. Mary Sue From msittner@mcn.org Fri Sep 24 23:15:18 2004 Message-Id: <4.2.2.20040924193729.01e6bd60@mail.mcn.org> From: Mary Sue Ittner Subject: Bulb Predators / Raised Beds Date: Fri, 24 Sep 2004 20:13:04 -0700 Dear Rodger, You raise some interesting points. Ann Marie was writing in response to a comment I had made about my raised beds. One of the considerations was creating a bed that would discourage predators and that was the reason for the hardware cloth and the gravel. I have an extra problem to deal with and that is that my property has a lot of redwoods (Sequoia sempervirens). In the previous raised beds I had where I planted directly into the soil my beds soon became riddled with roots. We are talking pick axe if I planned to dig in those beds to divide or deal with the bulbs. I think double potting has an advantage in that it is harder for the redwood roots to get into my pots. It probably seems ridiculous to think that could happen, but trust me they seek out better soil and moisture. Since my beds have been used almost entirely for Mediterranean bulbs that grow in the winter when it rains here and kept dry in summer when we get no rain I feared that if I removed a pot to replant it which I finally did this year, all the plunge material would fall into the hole since it would be very dry at that time and it would make replacing the pot a challenge. At the time I created my beds I didn't have a great source for coarse sand and Alberto suggested that mixing the sand I was able to get (play sand) with gravel would be helpful to make the plunge more gritty so that the water would not drain from the plunge into the pots. We get almost all of our rain in winter with a little in the fall and a little in the spring and none in the summer. The last few years we have had less rain so that the average for that time has been lowered to around 50 inches but I felt I still needed to be prepared for the possibility that we'd have some very wet months. I'm on my third year with the original beds I planted and am very pleased with the results which are much better than I had with planting straight in the bed which is what I did before and also better than planting in the ground for a lot of things. I am using pots that are 9-10 inches deep and I think that is very helpful too. When I replanted one of the beds this year I found the nesting pot system was a huge help. Also I had put plastic pots on the bottom between the two containers and since the birds continue to pull out my tags it was easy to discover when I repotted what was in each pot if a tag was missing. So even if I miss out on some of the advantages you noted, there are others I gain. The pots Jane uses that are mesh have a lot of advantages too, but when I looked at sources for them, they were extremely expensive. I now have 4 of these beds and a lot of pots so clay pots would have been very expensive too. Even nested and not touching the plunge I expect the soil temperature in my pots in those beds is more even that it is in all those I have on benches exposed to the air and sun at times. I'm glad you brought up some of this as it illustrates a number of things to consider when you are doing a raised bed. Each of us have very different situations and it is important to think about what you will be growing in your beds and what your weather is like as it will influence how you do it. Mary Sue From Jamievande@freenet.de Sat Sep 25 05:36:45 2004 Message-Id: <005701c4a2e3$8a428e30$6502a8c0@Jamie2> From: "Jamie" Subject: colour scheme Date: Sat, 25 Sep 2004 11:39:22 +0200 We've spent a great deal of energy trying to understand what is meant by colour names and, generally, although agreement in many areas is clear, there is a great deal of room for interpretation. To help a bit in a more universal understanding, here are the accepted terms of colour, based on our understanding of light refraction. This is all a bit dry, but it represents the basic foundations of colour theory. Delete now and accept my apologies, if this will bore you. PRIMARIES: Red, Blue, Yellow SECONDARIES: Violet, Green, Orange TERTIARIES: Red-Violet, Red-Orange, Orange-Yellow, Yellow-Green, Blue-Green, Blue-Violet You will notice that purple is not among these colours. Also, fanciful names are missing, as they are too subjective. If one was to place these colour in a wheel, one would recognise the constituents of the prismatic rainbow. Our eyes do not register wavelengths lower than Violet or higher than Red, which represent the two extremes of human vison. Our vision peaks around yellow-green, which appears very bright to our senses. In colour practice, you have tone, hue and chroma, which refer to adding white, adding black and lastly intensity. White is technically the total absence of colour, while black is the total presence of colour. We refer to grey as the additive for creating hues, not black. You know the saying, all practice is grey! In the natural world, we never see pure base colours, except through light refraction. This is part of the reason why we have all of these fun names for various hues and tones of colour. They always have a white or grey component, often both, which takes them away from the pure mother colours. Purple is a greyed blue-violet. Add white and you have lavender. Ben's pondering on pink is an important area. As Jim pointed out, pink is not just white and red. It is this and much more. Our eyes are not sensitive enough to see all the subtle changes in the red spectrum, especially as it pales with white. The blue or orange (yellow) component are very difficult to discern, unless we place the tones next to each other. From my own experience, we can learn to see these tones, but we tend to want to gloss over them. With greens to yellows to oranges, we seem to recognise a much wider range, which would be logical, as our vision is particularly sensitive in these wavelengths. I hope this hasn't bored you too much, it just seemed important to know where we are coming from in colour. Even with these principle, it is very subjective as to where one colour starts and stops. Jamie V. Cologne From rrgcjsg@bmts.com Sat Sep 25 11:31:44 2004 Message-Id: <007901c4a314$b1cd9450$358fb7d8@Ronnalee> From: "Lee and Scott" Subject: Question Re: bulb potting compost Date: Sat, 25 Sep 2004 11:31:08 -0400 Question: Is there a page/source/website, on which one can find the "formula" or "recipe" for planting bulbs in pots and the technique for over-wintering the bulbs in the pots? I am learning such valuable info on this site and appreciate all that I read. Thanks to all for making it available. R. Gerow Wiarton, Ontario. Zone 5a/5b From: "Jane McGary" To: "Pacific Bulb Society" Sent: Wednesday, September 01, 2004 1:14 PM Subject: [pbs] Nylon bags and screens > The company that I get my "miner's" garden tools from is in Portland, > Oregon, but they also have Internet sales: > www.dk-nugget.com > > They have the excellent one-piece plus rubber handle stainless steel > trowels in a number of sizes, metal sieves that are very sturdy, and > larger-mesh indestructible PVC sieves that I use for soil that I mix in my > bulb potting compost. Also, a large range of topographic maps of the US > West, and books on various subjects, and geologist's hammers and so on. > > Jane McGary > > > _______________________________________________ > pbs mailing list > pbs@lists.ibiblio.org > http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php > From valden@vectis52.freeserve.co.uk Sat Sep 25 13:38:03 2004 Message-Id: <001801c4a326$57d3ce80$ba77883e@deny471g8xq1jy> From: "Den Wilson" Subject: Flower photography. Date: Sat, 25 Sep 2004 18:35:59 +0100 Hello all, I thought I'd pass on the following advice from a photographer who took wonderful images of alpines in the wild. The notes were originally intended for 35mm SLR cameras but I've found they work extremely well with digital: 1. Try not to photograph in direct sunlight. If direct sunlight is unavoidable try to choose early morning or late evening. If possible provide some light shade (but not dappled shade). Strong light will dilute the natural colour. 2. Use a macro, zoom or close-up lens unless you want to capture the plant in habitat. These lenses have a very short depth of focus and will throw the background out of focus which has the very desirable effect of sharpening the subject. 3. The key to good flower photography is the point of focus. Remember that anything between your chosen point of focus and the camera will be blurred, whilst anything beyond your point of focus will remain clear for a short distance (the depth of focus). With close-up images it is very important to focus accurately on the anthers if present. If not, consider focusing on the stigma. It is usually a mistake to focus deep into the throat of a flower which will throw the anthers, stigma and outer segments out of focus. 4. Learn to give yourself time to study the image through the viewfinder before you press the trigger. Make sure your chosen point of focus is crystal clear. Usually, what you see is what you get. My note: The above was mostly aimed at 'in the field' photography. It is possible to get good results by using a standard lens and a background screen but remember that the 'chosen point of focus' rule and light consideration still applies. The depth of focus will be much longer. Cheers. Den Wilson Isle of Wight UK. Zone 8 (maritime) almost frost-free. From jglatt@ptd.net Sat Sep 25 13:31:58 2004 Message-Id: <000901c4a327$2ef6e140$c09a32d1@oemcomputer> From: "Judy Glattstein" Subject: color complements Date: Sat, 25 Sep 2004 13:43:34 -0400 Unless plants are grown in isolation with a neutral gray background, there is also the effect of adjacent plants on our subjective look at their color. Colors next to each other on the color wheel relate harmoniously. Colors across from each other on the color wheel, such as red to green, blue to orange, purple to yellow, are called complementary colors. They have the strongest contrast. Just as a pinch of seasoning spices up a dish, too much can spoil it. A flower border designed mostly (I want to primarily, but that's a dangerous term here, liable to misinterpretation) with related colors, generally softened with some white to form tints of the chosen, more saturated colors, will gain some zing with just a soupcon of the color complement. Purple with violet, lavender, and lilac, and just a smidge of a pale yellow is attractive. A border entirely of equal amounts of true blue and saturated orange is harsh. Further, the adjacent color alters our perception of the color pair: just envision a square of turquoise against green. Very different from a square of turquoise against pink. Johannes Itten, The Elements of Color, is a lovely little book on this subject. Judy in overcast but still mild New Jersey From jimmckenney@starpower.net Sat Sep 25 17:45:06 2004 Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.20040925174504.00a1f8e0@pop.starpower.net> From: Jim McKenney Subject: Autumn crocus starting here Date: Sat, 25 Sep 2004 17:45:04 -0400 While mowing the front lawn today I nicked the top of the first Crocus speciosus of the year. In another part of the garden, self-sown Crocus kotschyanus has been in bloom for about a week. Neither of these is purple. : ) Jim McKenney jimmckenney@starpower.net Montgomery County, Maryland, USA, USDA zone 7, where I now have an excuse not to mow the lawn for about a month. From jimmckenney@starpower.net Sat Sep 25 18:02:11 2004 Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.20040925180215.00a1eec0@pop.starpower.net> From: Jim McKenney Subject: Dahlia show report: in search of the color purple Date: Sat, 25 Sep 2004 18:02:15 -0400 As promised, I went to the local Dahlia show today in search of the color purple. Sorry, I have to retrain myself to say "violet" instead of purple. The result: well, I honestly don't know because the show was inside under fluorescent lights. Some of the colors were peculiar, and none came anywhere close to what I used to call purple. But the dahlias were beautiful. Our local Dahlia club has published its own color charts to help classify the flowers. A member showed me these charts, and curiously there were pages devoted to the color I used to call purple. When I pointed to those colors, the dahlia person assured me that there were no dahlias in that color range. They do use the term purple, and when I asked the dahlia person to show me a dahlia in that category, a dusky red one was pointed out. Oh, well... Another member mentioned Dahlia 'Purple Joy' and said it was a very distinctive lavender which really stood out in a planting of dahlias. Jim McKenney jimmckenney@starpower.net Montgomery County, Maryland, USA, USDA zone 7, where I wonder how Lavandula became lavender in English - I guess they couldn't spell any better back in the old days than some of us do now. From susanann@sbcglobal.net Sat Sep 25 18:06:08 2004 Message-Id: From: Susan Hayek Subject: Dahlia show report: in search of the color purple Date: Sat, 25 Sep 2004 15:06:36 -0700 >Our local Dahlia club has published its own color charts to help classify >the flowers. A member showed me these charts, and curiously there were >pages devoted to the color I used to call purple. When I pointed to those >colors, the dahlia person assured me that there were no dahlias in that >color range. > >They do use the term purple, and when I asked the dahlia person to show me >a dahlia in that category, a dusky red one was pointed out. Oh, well... > >Another member mentioned Dahlia 'Purple Joy' and said it was a very >distinctive lavender which really stood out in a planting of dahlias. I went outside and looked at Thomas Edison and it IS wine colored or magenta (I have NO color charts) more than it is 'purple'. sigh... language. -- susan, who is..... owned by Jasper & Schubert the Standard Poodles, Gracie the Rhodesian, Pup-Quiz the Basenji and their Basenji brother, Jones.... on the North Coast of CA, USA susanann@sbcglobal.net, copyright 2004 From msittner@mcn.org Sun Sep 26 01:13:59 2004 Message-Id: <4.2.2.20040924160645.01e4d840@mail.mcn.org> From: Mary Sue Ittner Subject: New South African Gladiolus on the wiki Date: Sat, 25 Sep 2004 21:40:15 -0700 Dear All, I have added some pictures to the wiki of some new Southern African Gladiolus that have bloomed for me this month. I've been growing Gladiolus ecklonii for a couple of years, but never got a photograph I liked. The seed came from Rhoda and Cameron McMaster. I started it spring 2002 and it bloomed for the first time summer-fall 2003. It's a summer rainfall Gladiolus that is dormant in winter. I'd call it striking instead of beautiful although I kind of like the leaves that have nice margins so I included a picture that isn't entirely in focus so you could see the leaves. The flower is described as white, but it has so many dots (described in Gladiolus in Southern Africa as pink, red or purple) that you'd never guess. I think it looks brown from a distance, but perhaps the dots really are dark red. After our recent discussion I'm reluctant to hang a name on the color. When Jim Robinett gave me part of his collection when he could not longer care for it, there were one Gladiolus oppositiflorus corm. This species too is a summer rainfall species and I planted it in the ground in a bed that gets watered weekly in summer, but has redwoods so the soil is always dry. I didn't expect it to survive so I didn't mark it and had forgotten about it. A few weeks ago I looked out my window wondering what the salmon flower was in bloom and after I keyed it out I looked on my data base and figured it out. I had noted I didn't know if it was still alive. It's very pretty so I hope it returns. Finally in my raised bed octagon blooming for the first time also from Jim Robinett is Gladiolus brevifolius. I've tried it three times from seed (three different sources) and never had any luck. He sowed these the tag said in January 1997 so it was a long time before it bloomed. This is another one of those winter rainfall species that blooms in the fall first before the leaves appear. The flowers are very small but nicely marked. I found it impossible to get a picture of it in focus until I put something behind it. One of those pictures I took upside down and then turned it around as that was the only way I could hold something behind it and the camera at the same time. Today I held a piece of plastic behind it and Bob took the picture. http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki/index.php/SouthernAfricanGladiolus Mary Sue From kellyo@wetrock.com Sun Sep 26 03:08:38 2004 Message-Id: <41560865.29417.825972@localhost> From: "Kelly O'Neill" Subject: refrigerators, ethylene, and bulbs Date: Sun, 26 Sep 2004 00:08:05 -0700 > With respect to the combined storage of refrigerated bulbs and fruit: > I don't expect that the ethylene trapping material will be... The "ripening gas" is a problem for Cut Flower producers and has lead to another gas, I believe, used as the "cure". I don't remember the name or details. I think the cure attaches to the item to be protected in a way that blocks the bad gas. This cure may help commercial bulb storage folks. Sorry if it does not help in the refridge, KellyO -- Kelly O'Neill Wet Rock Gardens Flower Farm U-Pick and more at the farm (open Sun, Wed, Fri 9-6 and by appointment other times and days): 2877 N 19th Street Springfield, Oregon 97477 To contact us: gardens@wetrock.com http://www.wetrock.com (541) 746-4444 Business Office for mail or by appointment only: 1950 Yolanda AVE Springfield, Oregon 97477 From mark@marksgardenplants.com Sun Sep 26 05:51:48 2004 Message-Id: <002101c4a3ae$71c724d0$f66a2bd9@markp5xpcz3p3u> From: "Mark Smyth" Subject: Question Re: bulb potting compost Date: Sun, 26 Sep 2004 10:51:48 +0100 I'll suggest you try to get to one of Ian Young's - from Scotland - talks from his forthcoming US tour. He is best talker I have ever heard and very funny too. I'll try to get a list of dates. If you want to learn lots about bulbs I suggest you become a member of the Scottish Rock web site forum http://www.srgc.org.uk/cgi-bin/discus/discus.cgi it's free to join. Ian's weekly bulb log http://www.srgc.org.uk/bulblog/bulblog.html is also packed with information and photos. This is this week's bulb log http://www.srgc.org.uk/bulblog/log2004/210904/log.html 'Flowering Now' http://www.srgc.org.uk/discus/messages/283/283.html?1089397886 is a monthly forum where we post photos of what is flowering in our gardens. This is September's Flowering Now page http://www.srgc.org.uk/discus/messages/283/3236.html?1094070695 You'll find there is quite a bit of discussion about photos posted. Mark N Ireland From blweintraub1@earthlink.net Sun Sep 26 12:09:43 2004 Message-Id: <6.1.2.0.2.20040926093733.04c6bb40@earthlink.net> From: Barbara Weintraub Subject: More on color Date: Sun, 26 Sep 2004 10:09:41 -0600 Sorry, Judy, but I have to disagree on a couple of points. Please note that the high elevation sunlight of the continental western US creates much different effects than are seen on the coasts, or in locations where water vapor waters down color. As I design gardens for myself and for others I've played with some color combinations that might be considered unusual. Contrary to Judy's statement that "A border entirely of equal amounts of true blue and saturated orange is harsh," I've found that a border of lavender, purple, bluish lavender mixed with bright yellow and orange is together. I'm still playing with this border, but one successful example is Scutellaria baicalensis with Happlopappus croceus, two perennials with brightly-colored flowers and a combination of which I have slides for a talk on use of native plants in the garden. Again, contrary to Judy's statement "Colors next to each other on the color wheel relate harmoniously," I've found them to clash horribly! For instance, red on the orange side clashes horribly with red on the bluish side (e.g., Penstemon cardinalis and Penstemon pinifolius), as does yellow on the golden side with yellow on the golden side with true, buttercup, or sulfur yellow (e.g., Coreopsis grandiflorus 'Sunray' and Achillea x 'Moonshine') On the other hand, if I keep flowers in the range of golden yellow, orange, and scarlet red, the resulting 'hot' border is spectacular. One of the most profound influences on how I use color was the book Color Echoes by Pamela Harper. Although primarily a practical approach rather than a treatise on color theory, the ideas in this book changed the way I look at, and use, color. I've come up with some wonderful combinations of which I'm quite proud!. :-) As many of you know, I've spent lots of time wandering around the mountains and deserts. In my wanderings, I've found some incredible vignettes and wide expanses from which I have learned that nature is still the best gardener, and one that we can only approximate. I realize that this posting doesn't mention bulbs specifically, but my experience certainly applies to any plants used in a garden. - Barbara Leaf and Stone Barbara L. Weintraub 20 Estambre Road Santa Fe, NM 87508-8769 6640 feet elevation nominally USDA zone 5b/6a blweintraub1@earthlink.net From jshields104@insightbb.com Sun Sep 26 15:08:38 2004 Message-Id: <5.1.0.14.2.20040926140136.01db6dc8@pop.indy.net> From: "J.E. Shields" Subject: Question Re: bulb potting compost Date: Sun, 26 Sep 2004 14:08:34 -0500 Hi all, Now I'll show you how much opinions vary by coming out and flat contradicting Roger. Never ever use any garden soil in a bulb potting mix! In fact, it all depends firstly on what genera and species you are trying to grow. Then it depends on your climate. In addition it depends greatly on whether you are a compulsive over-watering gardener or a limited or careful waterer. I grow and have grown over the years, wild Hippeastrum species native to South America. They are mostly from arid areas, and even those native to Brazil's Atlantic Rain Forest area need a dry period. Add garden soil, and they will simply rot away for you in a humid climate. They do not tolerate the fungi and bacteria supported by common dirt and by organic residues. The same things apply to many South Africa bulbs. So let me repeat: If you have a rare or valuable bulb, do NOT use any garden soil in your potting mixes! Jim Shields in usually wet, hot, and humid central Indiana where we are in our 6th week of relative drought. At 05:30 PM 9/25/2004 -0700, you wrote: >On 25 Sep 04 at 11:31, Lee and Scott wrote: > > > Question: > > Is there a page/source/website, on which one can find the "formula" > > or "recipe" for planting bulbs in pots and the technique for > > over-wintering the bulbs in the pots? > > >That's a very interesting question. I suspect that you would find >each potted-bulb fancier has his or her own recipe, and may even use >different recipes for different bulbs. > >The cardinal rule is that your mix *must* (MUST!) use ingredients >that are readily available in your area. For example consider the >famous John Innes potting composts, as they are called. It's an >English formula and uses the infamous "Cornish silver sand", which I >believe is hard to come by even in the UK these days. There's >absolutely no point trying to slavishly follow that formula. At the >same time, if you think the John Innes mix is what you want, you can >utilize locally available ingredients to give a similar -- by >no means identical -- result. > >In addition, the type of mix you use depends on factors like the >yearly patterns of rainfall and temperature, the kind of pots you >want to use, and the bulbs you want to grow. > >Or, to put it another way, what I use in zone 8 on southern >Vancouver Island will include ingredients you will find impossible >to buy, and probably won't work as well for you anyway. > >And Jane McGary, about 300 miles south of me, but inland instead of >on the coast, at a higher elevation, and in a region where volcanic >effluvia are dirt common, will use a different mix from mine. > > >Some suggestions: use a soil-based mix, not a soilless mix based on >peat. Be careful to test the pH and adjust it using agricultural lime >or ground limestone. (Dolomite is not as effective for adjusting soil >pH as it is much less soluble.) > > >As for overwintering potted bulbs, since you are in > > > Wiarton, Ontario. > > Zone 5a/5b > >I cannot offer any advice except this: don't let them freeze through! > >-- >Rodger Whitlock >Victoria, British Columbia, Canada >Maritime Zone 8, a cool Mediterranean climate > >on beautiful Vancouver Island >_______________________________________________ >pbs mailing list >pbs@lists.ibiblio.org >http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php ************************************************* Jim Shields USDA Zone 5 Shields Gardens, Ltd. P.O. Box 92 WWW: http://www.shieldsgardens.com/ Westfield, Indiana 46074, USA Tel. ++1-317-867-3344 or toll-free 1-866-449-3344 in USA From susanann@sbcglobal.net Sun Sep 26 18:34:19 2004 Message-Id: From: Susan Hayek Subject: More on color Date: Sun, 26 Sep 2004 15:34:46 -0700 **Color is in the eye of the beholder. What is harsh, or not harsh, to me, may be the reverse to another. Same with what is 'harmonious'. That's what makes gardens so different and so fun. I have a friend who is a fibre artist and works with color constantly. She prefers a garden with only whites, creams and blushes (I hesitate to say pale pale apricot). I have one area in my garden that was planted that way and personally I found it rather uninteresting, color-wise. Color theory is just that. Theory. The reality is a different reality to each person. >Sorry, Judy, but I have to disagree on a couple of points. Please >note that the high elevation sunlight of the continental western US >creates much different effects than are seen on the coasts, or in >locations where water vapor waters down color. > >As I design gardens for myself and for others I've played with some >color combinations that might be considered unusual. Contrary to >Judy's statement that "A border entirely of equal amounts of true >blue and saturated orange is harsh," I've found that a border of >lavender, purple, bluish lavender mixed with bright yellow and >orange is together. I'm still playing with this border, but one >successful example is Scutellaria baicalensis with Happlopappus >croceus, two perennials with brightly-colored flowers and a >combination of which I have slides for a talk on use of native >plants in the garden. > >Again, contrary to Judy's statement "Colors next to each other on >the color wheel relate harmoniously," I've found them to clash >horribly! For instance, red on the orange side clashes horribly with >red on the bluish side (e.g., Penstemon cardinalis and Penstemon >pinifolius), as does yellow on the golden side with yellow on the >golden side with true, buttercup, or sulfur yellow (e.g., Coreopsis >grandiflorus 'Sunray' and Achillea x 'Moonshine') On the other hand, >if I keep flowers in the range of golden yellow, orange, and scarlet >red, the resulting 'hot' border is spectacular. -- susan, who is..... owned by Jasper & Schubert the Standard Poodles, Gracie the Rhodesian, Pup-Quiz the Basenji and their Basenji brother, Jones.... on the North Coast of CA, USA susanann@sbcglobal.net, copyright 2004 From susanann@sbcglobal.net Sun Sep 26 18:35:48 2004 Message-Id: From: Susan Hayek Subject: Question Re: bulb potting compost Date: Sun, 26 Sep 2004 15:36:16 -0700 >Jim Shields >in usually wet, hot, and humid central Indiana where we are in our >6th week of relative drought. **And we are in our 6th month. sigh... -- susan, who is..... owned by Jasper & Schubert the Standard Poodles, Gracie the Rhodesian, Pup-Quiz the Basenji and their Basenji brother, Jones.... on the North Coast of CA, USA Zone 9 susanann@sbcglobal.net, copyright 2004 From IntarsiaCo@aol.com Mon Sep 27 08:02:22 2004 Message-Id: <1d2.2c5273ec.2e895b36@aol.com> From: IntarsiaCo@aol.com Subject: More on color- misc. rambling observations Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2004 08:01:58 EDT In a message dated 9/26/2004 6:34:59 PM Eastern Daylight Time, susanann@sbcglobal.net writes: >The reality is a different reality to each person The perception of a "color" is an event charactized by a blend of three components: The light source (illuminant) The interaction of an object with the illuminant The observer The response of the observer is non-linear and cannot be explained simply by trichromacy (red, green, blue receptors) As the cornea ages and yellows, response to color (mostly blue and green) changes The human eye is deficient in discrimination of yellows Humans are more sensitive to discrepancies in hue than discrepancies in saturation or brightness Memory colors (i.e. skin tone, green grass, sky blue) matter more than non-memory colors. Relationships between colors are more important than the colors themselves. The surface of an object and the manner in which it reflects, transmits or fluoresces light is important to the perception of color. Mark Mazer Intarsia Ltd. Gaylordsville, Connecticut 06755-0142 USDA Zone 5 Giant Schnauzer Rescue From rrgcjsg@bmts.com Mon Sep 27 09:33:04 2004 Message-Id: <000e01c4a496$7505f1b0$b58eb7d8@Ronnalee> From: "Lee and Scott" Subject: Question Re: bulb potting compost Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2004 09:32:31 -0400 ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mark Smyth" To: "Pacific Bulb Society" Sent: Sunday, September 26, 2004 5:51 AM Subject: [pbs] Question Re: bulb potting compost > I'll suggest you try to get to one of Ian Young's - from Scotland - talks > from his forthcoming US tour. He is best talker I have ever heard and very > funny too. I'll try to get a list of dates. > > If you want to learn lots about bulbs I suggest you become a member of the > Scottish Rock web site forum > http://www.srgc.org.uk/cgi-bin/discus/discus.cgi it's free to join. > > Ian's weekly bulb log http://www.srgc.org.uk/bulblog/bulblog.html is also > packed with information and photos. This is this week's bulb log > http://www.srgc.org.uk/bulblog/log2004/210904/log.html > > 'Flowering Now' > http://www.srgc.org.uk/discus/messages/283/283.html?1089397886 is a > monthly > forum where we post photos of what is flowering in our gardens. This is > September's Flowering Now page > http://www.srgc.org.uk/discus/messages/283/3236.html?1094070695 > > You'll find there is quite a bit of discussion about photos posted. > > Mark > N Ireland > > > > _______________________________________________ > pbs mailing list > pbs@lists.ibiblio.org > http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php > From Steve.Burger@choa.org Mon Sep 27 11:19:57 2004 Message-Id: <0BAB7B6F7D5A53418C3B75FA01DE2BED05FE1BB1@CHOAMAIL4.choa.org> From: "Burger, Steve" Subject: Crinum hardiness Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2004 11:17:26 -0400 Can anyone speak to the hardiness of the following Crinums; Crinum augustum (I've seen it angustum???),Crinum pedunculatum, Crinum x 'Hana', and Crinum xanthophyllum ? Perhaps you can speak of them as they compare to C. asiaticum. Thanks, Steve Steve Burger Applications Analyst Children's Healthcare of Atlanta (404)785-3142 From johnbryan@worldnet.att.net Mon Sep 27 11:36:19 2004 Message-Id: <415832B1.F5BFF540@worldnet.att.net> From: John Bryan Subject: color complements Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2004 08:33:05 -0700 Dear Judy: Beauty is, we are told, in the eye of the beholder. While I appreciate your comments regarding the mix of colors, and while you may be correct in being so careful with plantings, I have yet to see colors in nature that clash and be 'harsh'. Perhaps this is more apparent to the distaff side of a family. Such harshness as you describe is perhaps not so apparent to males. I have seen gardens divided into rooms where one room is white, another blue, another shades of red and the result was most pleasing. If such colors are selected with contrasts being provided by foliage texture, form and color, the combination can be soft, despite the colors of the flowers being that which you describe as harsh. In your opinion, is there ever a need, in a garden, to plant colors that are, or could be, regarded as harsh? I think it would be quite a difficult task to design a border which would consist of colors that just did not blend, I suppose this depends on scale, which always should play a part. Your comments were interesting. Thanks, Cheers, John E. Bryan Glattstein wrote: > > Unless plants are grown in isolation with a neutral gray background, there > is also the effect of adjacent plants on our subjective look at their color. > > Colors next to each other on the color wheel relate harmoniously. Colors > across from each other on the color wheel, such as red to green, blue to > orange, purple to yellow, are called complementary colors. They have the > strongest contrast. Just as a pinch of seasoning spices up a dish, too much > can spoil it. A flower border designed mostly (I want to primarily, but > that's a dangerous term here, liable to misinterpretation) with related > colors, generally softened with some white to form tints of the chosen, more > saturated colors, will gain some zing with just a soupcon of the color > complement. > > Purple with violet, lavender, and lilac, and just a smidge of a pale yellow > is attractive. > > A border entirely of equal amounts of true blue and saturated orange is > harsh. > > Further, the adjacent color alters our perception of the color pair: just > envision a square of turquoise against green. Very different from a square > of turquoise against pink. > > Johannes Itten, The Elements of Color, is a lovely little book on this > subject. > > Judy in overcast but still mild New Jersey > > _______________________________________________ > pbs mailing list > pbs@lists.ibiblio.org > http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php From johnbryan@worldnet.att.net Mon Sep 27 11:45:04 2004 Message-Id: <415834B5.4D47A3B9@worldnet.att.net> From: John Bryan Subject: More on color- misc. rambling observations Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2004 08:41:41 -0700 Dear All: The discussion regarding color is fascinating. Comparing the color of a flower with a color chart should be done in northern and bright light, not sunlight. When deciding on the merits of a new lily as a cut flower, we always made sure they looked good under fluorescent light, as such was that used by florists in their windows and shops. The difference in the perceived colors under such different light sources can be quite startling.Cheers, John E. Bryan IntarsiaCo@aol.com wrote: > > In a message dated 9/26/2004 6:34:59 PM Eastern Daylight Time, > susanann@sbcglobal.net writes: > >The reality is a different reality to each person > > The perception of a "color" is an event charactized by a blend of three > components: > > The light source (illuminant) > The interaction of an object with the illuminant > The observer > > The response of the observer is non-linear and cannot be explained simply by > trichromacy (red, green, blue receptors) > > As the cornea ages and yellows, response to color (mostly blue and green) > changes > > The human eye is deficient in discrimination of yellows > > Humans are more sensitive to discrepancies in hue than discrepancies in > saturation or brightness > > Memory colors (i.e. skin tone, green grass, sky blue) matter more than > non-memory colors. > > Relationships between colors are more important than the colors themselves. > > The surface of an object and the manner in which it reflects, transmits or > fluoresces light is important to the perception of color. > > Mark Mazer > Intarsia Ltd. > Gaylordsville, Connecticut 06755-0142 > USDA Zone 5 > Giant Schnauzer Rescue > _______________________________________________ > pbs mailing list > pbs@lists.ibiblio.org > http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php From putman@pobox.upenn.edu Mon Sep 27 12:01:07 2004 Message-Id: <415838F5.4000402@pobox.upenn.edu> From: Stephen Putman Subject: Hymenocallis palmeri - seed to trade Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2004 11:59:49 -0400 Hi All, I have fresh seed from Hymenocallis palmeri. I'd like to trade for seed or bulbs of species plants. What have you got extra? Reply privately please. Thanks, Steve Putman From totototo@pacificcoast.net Fri Sep 24 22:25:03 2004 Message-Id: From: "Rodger Whitlock" Subject: Bulb Predators / Raised Beds Date: Fri, 24 Sep 2004 19:30:22 -700 On 23 Sep 04 at 11:03, Ann Marie wrote: > What is "plunge" > > Briefly you make a structure, lay hardware cloth on the bottom, add > gravel on top, place plastic pots in the order you want, add plunge > around them and then plant your bulbs in plastic pots of the same > size to nest in the pots in the bed. In my experience, a plunge bed's great advantage is the even conditions it provides to the plants: both temperature and moisture levels are kept very even, though of course changing with the seasons. It is my belief that many plants detest the drastic changes in soil temperature and moisture content that ordinary pot culture entails, and do much better with more even conditions at the root. I used ordinary sand as the plunge material; put the plants in *clay* pots, not plastic; and had the plant pots directly in contact with the plunge material. The bed of sand wicks up any excess moisture, so overwatering is almost impossible, but at the same time acts as a reservoir so the pots don't dry out at all easily. Note that this has more than a passing resemblance to the "capillary beds" one finds sometimes described in the horticultural literature. Ann Marie's recommended method will control temperature variation, but the use of gravel (not water retentive), plastic pots (impermeable to moisture), and nested pots (breaking any capillary contact between plant pot and plunge material) all work against getting any useful control of the moisture level in the pots. Some bulbs definitely do not like intense drying off. Iris winogradowii has never grown as well for me as when it was in a large terracotta pot plunged in sand, and watered with yesterday's cold tea first thing every summer morning. As for the "structure", make it strong and make sure the sides won't bulge. The easiest way of doing this is to make sure the "structure" isn't too big. The best I've had was an 8'x4' bed made of railway ties stacked on the flat. Longer beds made with railway ties would start to bulge in the middle of the sides sooner or later. Also, you don't need much height: 12-18" is quite adequate for most purposes. As with raised beds, you do not need to excavate underneath or install drainage. As long as the plunge material is in capillary contact with the native soil, all is well. -- Rodger Whitlock Victoria, British Columbia, Canada Maritime Zone 8, a cool Mediterranean climate on beautiful Vancouver Island From totototo@pacificcoast.net Fri Sep 24 22:25:05 2004 Message-Id: From: "Rodger Whitlock" Subject: colror scheme for red Date: Fri, 24 Sep 2004 19:30:22 -700 On 24 Sep 04 at 9:26, zonneveld wrote: > I am a bit late but if you think you have problems with colours...... > As a non-native speaker I wrestled ( and still do ) with red. I draw your attention to Gertrude Jekill's "Colour Schemes in the Flower Garden" for some helpful guidance. It's a very old book now and the original edition is scarce and expensive, but I believe it has been reprinted fairly recently. Jekyll did some very sophisticated gardens, color-wise. The famous red border at Hidcote is one. One of her methods was to grade the colors so that the warmer, more intense colors were closest to the spectator (at one end of a long border), gradually shading off into cooler, less intense ones down the length of the border. This mimics the effect of atmosphere on distant color and would make the border appear longer than it actually was -- a trump de l'oile iow. Find that book and red it. It will surely spur your imagination. -- Rodger Whitlock Victoria, British Columbia, Canada Maritime Zone 8, a cool Mediterranean climate on beautiful Vancouver Island From dells@voicenet.com Mon Sep 27 13:46:21 2004 Message-Id: From: Dell Sherk Subject: Pacific BX 76 Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2004 13:48:58 -0400 Dear All, The items listed below have been donated by people from all over the world, to be shared. If you are interested in obtaining some of them, please email me PRIVATELY at . Include "BX 76" in the subject line. Specify the NUMBERS of the items which you would like; do not specify quantities. It is a good idea to include your snail mail address too, in case I don't already have it. Availability is based on a first come, first served system. When you receive your seeds/bulbs you will find, included with them, a statement of how much money (cash or check) you should send the PBS treasurer to defray our costs for packing and first-class postage. Some of you are members of the PBS discussion forum but not members of the Pacific Bulb Society. THIS BX OFFERING IS AVAILABLE ONLY TO MEMBERS OF THE PBS. Consider joining the PBS so that you can take advantage of future offers such as this. Go to our website: . Or contact me at dells@voicenet.com If you would like to donate seeds or bulbs/corms to the PBS, please send CLEAN, clearly labeled material to: Dell Sherk, PO Box 224, Holicong, PA, 18928, USA. Donors will receive credit on the BX for the cost of postage for their donations. PLEASE NOTE: I WILL REPLY TO YOU WITHIN 24 HRS OF MY RECEIPT OF YOUR ORDER.. IF YOU DO NOT HEAR FROM ME, TRY AGAIN !! From Jay Yourch: 1. Seed of Belamcanda chinensis (native to eastern Asia) 'Hello Yellow', is compact (18 inches or 50 cm tall) with unspotted yellow flowers. 2. Seed of Belamcanda chinensis type; 36 inches (100 cm) tall and has spotted orange flowers. "Belamcanda grows from a rhizome and has foliage that looks much like a bearded Iris, but in my garden in central North Carolina the foliage remains much cleaner throughout the garden season. It has been easy to grow and pest free in mostly full sun and moist well-drained soils. Seed should be barely covered and may need a little bit of cool stratification in order to germinate, but I am not sure. Seeds directly sown in the garden or in outdoor containers at this time of year will probably wait until spring to germinate." For photos see: http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki/index.php/Belamcanda From Dell Sherk: 3. Small bulbs of Ipheion uniflorum 'Rolf Fiedler' Very beautiful pale blue flowers in winter; narrow, allium-like foliage smelling of onions when bruised. I grow it in a pot in a bright window here in Zone 6. From Mary Sue Ittner: SMALL BULBS 4. Babiana framesii-- Winter growing, beautiful purple flowers 5. Babiana sp. (purchased as nana ssp. angustifolia) -- I can't identify the species on these, but it's a really nice one, easily grown in a container (not needing as deep a one as some) and smelling of cinnamon--see the pictures on the wiki 6. Brodiaea californica ssp. leptandra -- California native, this subspecies is shorter and has smaller flowers than the species, cormlets 7. Brodiaea pallida -- rare but in cultivation and multiples well, very beautiful, California native 8. Camassia leichtlinii leichtlinii --winter growing, seedlings, not big enough to bloom so haven't confirmed identity 9. Dichelostemma capitatum -- from NNS 98-197 seed, winter growing, California native 10. Herbertia lahue -- winter growing, short lived (but many of them) blue-purple flowers early summer. I've recently added some pictures to the wiki of the ones I grow that are in this batch 11. Hesperantha cucullata --Flowers open late afternoon so you need to bring the pot in at night to enjoy. Fragrant. Winter growing 12. Moraea aristata -- most of these are this beautiful species, very endangered in South Africa, but growing well for me in the ground in California (there was one yellow M. bellendenii in this pot, sorry I don't know which one) so if you ask for this one you will probably get M. aristata, but if it turns out to be yellow, it will be M. bellendenii 13. Moraea lurida -- from IBSA seed, hasn't bloomed yet to confirm, winter growing 14. Moraea sisyrinchium -- Mediterranean species with beautiful short lived flowers that open mid day 15. Nothoscordum felipponei (syn. Ipheion dialystemon) -- South American, but winter growing, bright yellow flowers, these are bulblets 16. Oxalis polyphylla v. heptaphylla MV 6396--Vanrhynsdorp. Succulent thread-like leaves. Winter growing 17. Oxalis luteola MV 5567 60km s of Clanwilliam. 1.25" lt yell flrs, darker ctr. This one has been very reliable for me in Northern California 18. Oxalis luteola MV 5667 1.5" brt yellow flowers, 13 km s of Nieuwodtville 19. Oxalis obtusa (? color)-- couple of these ended up in other pots and I forgot to note what they looked like 20. Oxalis obtusa MV 5051 Vanrhynshoek. 2" lt copper-orange, darker veining, yell ctr. 21. Oxalis obtusa MV 7087 2" pink flrs w/ large yellow ctr. No other data. (Mine looked more peachy than pink) 21. Oxalis purpurea 'Garnet' From South Africa, winter growing, purple leaves, pink flowers 22. Oxalis versicolor --lovely white with candy stripe on back 23. Romulea hirta -- winter growing, yellow flowers 24. Spiloxene capensis (pink)-cormlets, winter growing 25. Spiloxene capensis (white)-cormlets, winter growing 26. Triteleia montana cormlets, California native, winter growing, flowers are both yellow and white during growth 27. Triteleia peduncularis cormlets, California native with white flowers, each with a long pedicel which really shows off the stalk as is an umbel, found in wet places, winter growing 28. Tritonia crocata -- South Africa, winter growing From Uli Urban: 29. Hippeastrum sp?, seed from from Bolivia. See wiki for photos. 30. Seed of Hippeastrum cybister "Both come from summer rain climates and want a winter dormancy." From Liz Waterman: 31. Seed of Cyrtanthus brachyscyphus. thank you, Jay, Mary Sue, Uli, and Liz !! Best wishes, Dell --Dell Sherk, Director, Pacific BX From wlp@Radar-Sci.Jpl.Nasa.Gov Mon Sep 27 14:07:16 2004 Message-Id: <0B87394C-10B0-11D9-99C1-003065EFBD84@radar-sci.jpl.nasa.gov> From: Lee Poulsen Subject: Pacific BX 76 Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2004 11:07:07 -0700 Dell, Please send me the following. Thanks, --Lee >> From Mary Sue Ittner: > > SMALL BULBS > > 4. Babiana framesii-- Winter growing, beautiful purple flowers > > 5. Babiana sp. (purchased as nana ssp. angustifolia) -- I can't > identify the > species on these, but it's a really nice one, easily grown in a > container > (not needing as deep a one as some) and smelling of cinnamon--see the > pictures on the wiki > > 24. Spiloxene capensis (pink)-cormlets, winter growing > > 25. Spiloxene capensis (white)-cormlets, winter growing > > >> From Uli Urban: > > 29. Hippeastrum sp?, seed from from Bolivia. See wiki for photos. > 30. Seed of Hippeastrum cybister > > "Both come from summer rain climates and want a winter > dormancy." > From msittner@mcn.org Mon Sep 27 14:57:07 2004 Message-Id: <4.2.2.20040927115346.00d69dd0@mail.mcn.org> From: Mary Sue Ittner Subject: About Pacific BX 76 Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2004 11:55:18 -0700 Item #29 http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki/files/Hippeastrum_Bolivia_Uli1.jpg http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki/files/Hippeastrum_Bolivia_Uli2.jpg From wpoulsen@pacbell.net Mon Sep 27 15:36:29 2004 Message-Id: <7F438240-10BC-11D9-99C1-003065EFBD84@pacbell.net> From: Lee Poulsen Subject: colour scheme Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2004 12:36:15 -0700 > > PRIMARIES: Red, Blue, Yellow > SECONDARIES: Violet, Green, Orange > TERTIARIES: Red-Violet, Red-Orange, Orange-Yellow, Yellow-Green, > Blue-Green, > Blue-Violet > > You will notice that purple is not among these colours. Also, fanciful > names are missing, as they are too subjective. If one was to place > these > colour in a wheel, one would recognise the constituents of the > prismatic > rainbow. This is what I was taught growing up as a kid. (Although I didn't know the terms 'secondaries' and 'tertiaries' when I was a kid!) However, at least for me where I grew up (California and Texas), 'violet' and 'purple' were basically synonyms. Grown-ups never distinguished between to the two when speaking to me. 'Purple' tended to be used more by us kids and 'violet' sounded more formal and "adult". And I learned all about mixing blue and yellow to make green, blue and red to make purple/violet, and red and yellow to make orange. But if you look at the outer curve of the CIE color space diagram, a triangle with points at red, yellow, and blue encloses less of the colors than a triangle with points at magenta, yellow, and cyan (especially since subtractive, i.e., reflective color pigments are never as intense as colored light and therefore always form a smaller triangle overall). I think that due to two things, 1) the non-natural-ness of cyan and magenta in historical human color terminology, and 2) the resemblance of cyan as a shade of blue and magenta as a kind of overly intense pink/red, these two colors were just lumped in with blue and red. And therefore you ended up with red, yellow, and blue being the pigment primary colors. (Plus, I think sources for cyan and magenta pigments to make paints of those colors was very hard to come by in nature before the modern era of synthesizing compounds and synthetics. There are not too many teal and magenta rocks, minerals, animal products or plant items.) However, you can get a much wider gamut or range of many different colors if you actually use magenta, yellow, and cyan/teal as your pigment primaries. And that's why virtually every color printer I've ever heard of, inkjet, laser, or other, uses those three colors. (As well as modern color printing processes which all seem to use the CMYK colors as their bases.) If you use a color laser printer very much, then you'll have had a lot of experience with the cyan and magenta toner cartridges (as well as the yellow and black toner cartridges) letting loose some of the toner and getting the brilliant cyan and magenta toner dust all over things from time to time. Using the CMYK primaries, you get: PRIMARIES: Magenta, Yellow, Cyan SECONDARIES: Red, Green, Blue TERTIARIES: Magenta-Red (rose red), Red-Yellow (orange), Yellow-Green (chartreuse), Green-Cyan (aqua), Cyan-Blue (turquoise), Magenta-Blue (purple/violet) --Lee Poulsen Pasadena area, California, USDA Zone 9-10On Sep 25, 2004, at 2:39 AM, Jamie wrote: From ConroeJoe@aol.com Mon Sep 27 18:19:11 2004 Message-Id: <7e.59d5e80a.2e89ebd8@aol.com> From: ConroeJoe@aol.com Subject: A Nerine Experience Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2004 18:19:04 EDT Hi, About 18 months ago I traded some daylilies for some bulbs of Nerine sarniensis from a South African expatriate. She sent me the bulbs in late spring and I planted them in sparse soil, watered them a bit, and they put out leaves. There were 4 big bulbs (duck egg-sized) and some smaller ones. Then, in July, with the onset of really sticky weather, I dried down the pot and brought the bulbs indoors till October. They sat quiet and I was sure they were dead even though they were firm. In October, with the return of cooler nights and days, I put the pot outside in a sunny spot. I watered it about every 2 weeks if it didn't rain, and fertilized it twice over winter with fish emulsion (1/2 strength as recommended for house plants). This year I brought the pot in to dry in mid-June. The leaves of the big bulbs were dying back and nights were warm. It was a rainy month and I didn't want problems for my precious Nerine sarniensis. The pot has sat indoors all summer, in semi-dark corner of the laundry room-in air conditioned comfort. The odd thing is that the leaves on the small bulbs (1 inch or so diameter) did not die back-no water since mid-June. They have stayed green and have tried to grow a bit-even in the dim light. On October 1 I'll put the pot back out and hope it performs as before. Last January the big bulbs produced splendid flowers-pink or pink-lavender. The plant tolerated frosts to 25 F, but I did protect it from frost when it was in flower. I figured the blossoms would be the first things to get nipped. Each flower stalk lasted 2-3 weeks-maybe Nerine flowers are long lived or maybe it was the cool nights (near 30-35 F) that helped the flowers last so long. So, are all Nerines so well behaved if you can protect them from the rot of Houston summers? Cordially, Conroe Joe (89 F today, lows near 60 F, no rain for 2-3 weeks) From jimmckenney@starpower.net Mon Sep 27 20:54:08 2004 Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.20040927205351.00a20cb0@pop.starpower.net> From: Jim McKenney Subject: A Nerine Experience Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2004 20:53:51 -0400 At 06:19 PM 9/27/2004 EDT, Conroe Joe wrote: >Each flower stalk lasted 2-3 weeks-maybe Nerine flowers are long lived or >maybe it was the cool nights (near 30-35 F) that helped the flowers last so long. I'm having the same experience here in steam bath Maryland: a Nerine sarniensis which began to bloom during the second week of September is still blooming. Not only are they long lasting, they seem to darken a bit as they age instead of fading. On the other hand, I still don't see buds on Nerine bowdenii. Jim McKenney jimmckenney@starpower.net Montgomery County, Maryland, USA, USDA zone 7, where some late planted tuberoses are about to bloom. From puppincuff@cox.net Mon Sep 27 21:09:39 2004 Message-Id: <002701c4a4f7$c5ccb0a0$94456f44@Office> From: "chuck schwartz" Subject: Hymenocallis palmeri - seed to trade Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2004 18:09:12 -0700 Steve, What would you like? I've Stenomesson variegatum, Scadoxus puniceus and katherinae, Tulbaghia galpini, Pelargoniums radulifolia and x ardense. I couldn't reply privately as you didn't leave your e-mail address chuck Schwartz San Clemente CA ----- Original Message ----- From: "Stephen Putman" To: "Pacific Bulb Society" Sent: Monday, September 27, 2004 8:59 AM Subject: [pbs] Hymenocallis palmeri - seed to trade > Hi All, > > I have fresh seed from Hymenocallis palmeri. I'd like to trade for seed > or bulbs of species plants. What have you got extra? > > Reply privately please. > > Thanks, > > Steve Putman > > _______________________________________________ > pbs mailing list > pbs@lists.ibiblio.org > http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php From dells@voicenet.com Tue Sep 28 06:24:15 2004 Message-Id: From: Dell Sherk Subject: OOPS Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2004 06:27:43 -0400 It looks like I've done it again! I've given #21 to two different items on BX 76. For better clarity, please specify #21-1 Oxalis obtusa MV 7087 2" pink flrs w/ large yellow ctr #21-2 Oxalis purpurea 'Garnet' Sorry, Dell --Dell Sherk, Director, Pacific BX From dells@voicenet.com Tue Sep 28 06:56:36 2004 Message-Id: From: Dell Sherk Subject: Pacific BX 76 CLOSED Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2004 07:00:05 -0400 Good heavens!! Very much closed. It will take a while to get this one out. Enjoy, Dell --Dell Sherk, Director, Pacific BX From BBCNURSERY@aol.com Tue Sep 28 08:33:53 2004 Message-Id: From: BBCNURSERY@aol.com Subject: OOPS Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2004 08:33:40 EDT 21-1 would be great. Greig From annejim@acay.com.au Tue Sep 28 09:40:18 2004 Message-Id: <41596C40.8000502@acay.com.au> From: Jim Lykos Subject: Crinum hardiness Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2004 23:50:56 +1000 Hi Steve, I grow these Crinums (apart from Hana) in a warmer location equivalent to zone 10. C. xanthophyllum is by far the most temperature sensitive of all of these and without warmth in winter will not even survive in a cool glasshouse in zone 10. All the remaining Crinums will grow outdoors in my zone, but C. augustum and asiaticum are susceptible to frost burning all the leaves during winter, even though mature plants will survive all but severe frosts. The Southern NSW variants of Crinum pedunculatum in grow in the wild in mild frosts areas and will manage all but prolonged frost periods or severe frosts which will damage all leaf tissues. The North Queensland forms of C. pedunculatum are from the Australian tropics have thinner textured leaves and are no different than C. asiaticum or augustum in there ability to manage winter conditions. Cheers Jim Lykos Blue Mountains - Sydney Australia Burger, Steve wrote: >Can anyone speak to the hardiness of the following Crinums; Crinum >augustum (I've seen it angustum???),Crinum pedunculatum, Crinum x >'Hana', and Crinum xanthophyllum ? Perhaps you can speak of them as >they compare to C. asiaticum. > >Thanks, > >Steve > >Steve Burger >Applications Analyst >Children's Healthcare of Atlanta >(404)785-3142 > > >_______________________________________________ >pbs mailing list >pbs@lists.ibiblio.org >http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php > > > From msittner@mcn.org Tue Sep 28 11:22:02 2004 Message-Id: <4.2.2.20040928075447.01e9ce30@mail.mcn.org> From: Mary Sue Ittner Subject: Nerine Experience Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2004 08:19:59 -0700 Dear Jim and Joe, I don't believe either of you were members of our list when we discussed Nerine as the topic of the week. Hamish Sloan provided some first rate introductions I have referenced below. And there was discussion that month as well (April 2003). http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/pbslist/old.php/2003-April/002727.html http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/pbslist/old.php/2003-April/002744.html When I complained to Rod Saunders about my difficulty getting Nerine to flower he told me I should be growing the winter rainfall ones. Since that time I am doing better getting the summer rainfall species to bloom since they are mostly all in pots where I can give them regular water and occasional liquid fertilizer. With one exception my ground is too dry in summer to have them in the ground. I am less successful with the winter rainfall ones which I should be able to grow which is a contrast from my usual experience. I ordered Nerine humilis (a winter rainfall species) from Rhoda and Cameron when we did a group order a couple years ago and it is now in synch with this hemisphere so perhaps next year it will bloom. Nerine platypetala and Nerine angustifolia have just about finished blooming and N. masoniorum and N. filifolia are just starting. I grow one that Jim Robinett called a cross between N. flexuousa and undulata, but flexuosa is now considered to be undulata and the one I have in a pot is blooming now. For two or three years now some of these I planted in the ground have bloomed, but usually later than the container ones and so far I don't see a spike. One of my pots of Nerine bowdenii has scapes, but not the other. On the other hand the Nerine sarniensis that I got from the Zinkowsi rescue are hit or miss bloomers. I have tried more water in summer, more heat in summer, but haven't yet got it figured out. Two of my pots have scapes at the moment and one started opening yesterday, but many of the rest are producing leaves so they may skip this year (again). Many of the ones that have bloomed have been so incredibly beautiful that I am loath to give up on them. I have a few going from seed I saved so will be curious to see if those will be more reliable. They are still small at the moment. Mary Sue From totototo@pacificcoast.net Sat Sep 25 20:25:16 2004 Message-Id: From: "Rodger Whitlock" Subject: Question Re: bulb potting compost Date: Sat, 25 Sep 2004 17:30:42 -700 On 25 Sep 04 at 11:31, Lee and Scott wrote: > Question: > Is there a page/source/website, on which one can find the "formula" > or "recipe" for planting bulbs in pots and the technique for > over-wintering the bulbs in the pots? That's a very interesting question. I suspect that you would find each potted-bulb fancier has his or her own recipe, and may even use different recipes for different bulbs. The cardinal rule is that your mix *must* (MUST!) use ingredients that are readily available in your area. For example consider the famous John Innes potting composts, as they are called. It's an English formula and uses the infamous "Cornish silver sand", which I believe is hard to come by even in the UK these days. There's absolutely no point trying to slavishly follow that formula. At the same time, if you think the John Innes mix is what you want, you can utilize locally available ingredients to give a similar -- by no means identical -- result. In addition, the type of mix you use depends on factors like the yearly patterns of rainfall and temperature, the kind of pots you want to use, and the bulbs you want to grow. Or, to put it another way, what I use in zone 8 on southern Vancouver Island will include ingredients you will find impossible to buy, and probably won't work as well for you anyway. And Jane McGary, about 300 miles south of me, but inland instead of on the coast, at a higher elevation, and in a region where volcanic effluvia are dirt common, will use a different mix from mine. Some suggestions: use a soil-based mix, not a soilless mix based on peat. Be careful to test the pH and adjust it using agricultural lime or ground limestone. (Dolomite is not as effective for adjusting soil pH as it is much less soluble.) As for overwintering potted bulbs, since you are in > Wiarton, Ontario. > Zone 5a/5b I cannot offer any advice except this: don't let them freeze through! -- Rodger Whitlock Victoria, British Columbia, Canada Maritime Zone 8, a cool Mediterranean climate on beautiful Vancouver Island From mysticgardn@yahoo.com Tue Sep 28 12:10:35 2004 Message-Id: <20040928161029.74138.qmail@web40503.mail.yahoo.com> From: Ann Marie Subject: Oxblood Lily, and L. squamigera Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2004 09:10:29 -0700 (PDT) All of my hybrids from Betty bloomed last month and I'm waiting to remove the seeds. Purchased some more this last month from Betty. If anyone is interested she has alot bulblets for sale. I have her phone number you could email me if interested. Ann Marie in San Gariel valley, So. California Shirley Meneice wrote:All my hybrid bulbs from Betty Doutt began blooming a couple of weeks ago. Today I noticed the first scape of Lycoris squamigera popping up. They seem to do their thing when they get ready -- not necessarily when you want them to bloom or expect them. Shirley Meneice ConroeJoe@aol.com wrote: >Hi, > >About a month ago some reported their Rhodophiala bifida in bloom. I >wondered if mine were going to skip the year. > >Last week one scape popped up, and this week a half dozen more clumps are >blooming. I wonder what the clues are for this plant, when it knows to bloom? > >Maybe there is hope yet for my Lycoris squamigera. They were in full bloom a >month ago at a friend's home in central Maryland. Mine have yet to bloom. >Last year there was only a single scape, I wonder if they are particular about >warm winters? > > >Conroe Joe >_______________________________________________ >pbs mailing list >pbs@lists.ibiblio.org >http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php > > > > _______________________________________________ pbs mailing list pbs@lists.ibiblio.org http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php Ann Marie So. California, San Gabriel Valley, Zone 21 (Sunset Western Garden book) , influenced by both marine and interior air(Santa Ana winds). This makes it perfect for Citrus trees and most So African plants. I collect belladonnas, oxalis, criniums, amaryllis, palms, epiphyllums, succulents and other south african bulbs. email me at mysticgardn@yahoo.com for list of bulbs and plants for sale. For home and garden sculptures go to http://www.rjunkdrawer.com --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? vote.yahoo.com - Register online to vote today! From wpoulsen@pacbell.net Tue Sep 28 12:39:54 2004 Message-Id: From: Lee Poulsen Subject: Flores & Watson Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2004 09:39:39 -0700 Has anyone received this year's Flores & Watson catalog yet? (I.e., did I not get one? It usually comes out before now in my experience.) --Lee Poulsen Pasadena area, California, USDA Zone 9-10 From valden@vectis52.freeserve.co.uk Tue Sep 28 13:08:21 2004 Message-Id: <001601c4a57d$ba22e2c0$f891883e@deny471g8xq1jy> From: "Den Wilson" Subject: Flower photography Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2004 18:08:01 +0100 Roger, Thank you for your very helpful contribution. I apologise if I didn't make it sufficiently clear that the notes were tailored for digital camera users who's cameras do not support SLR lenses. Best regards. Den Wilson Isle of Wight UK. Zone 8 (maritime) almost frost-free. From jshields@indy.net Tue Sep 28 13:26:18 2004 Message-Id: <5.1.0.14.2.20040928121931.00a047a8@pop.indy.net> From: "J.E. Shields" Subject: Nerine Experience Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2004 12:25:59 -0500 Hi folks, I have never done well with sarniensis hybrids, but I get a great deal of pleasure form my summer-growing Nerine species. The first to flower is N. krigei, in July. It is said to require a period of chilling at 40 - 50 F in winter to trigger summer flowering. It gets this sitting dry under a bench in my cool greenhouse. N. [filifolia X krgei] hybrids flower next, in August. In September, the N. filifolia flowered. Now we have N. angulata in bloom. N. rehmanii are also starting to flower just now. Overlapping with these three species were NN. platypetala, gracilis, and filamentosa. There have been no signs of NN. bowdenii or undulata flowering yet. These two and N. 'Pink Triumph' flower in October to December. These are all grown in pots, outdoors in full sun (except for bowdenii) in summer and inside the greenhouses in winter. Regards, Jim Shields in Central Indiana, where the Fall colors are developing on the trees and the skies are blue At 08:19 AM 9/28/2004 -0700, you wrote: >Dear Jim and Joe, > >I don't believe either of you were members of our list when we discussed >Nerine as the topic of the week. Hamish Sloan provided some first rate >introductions I have referenced below. And there was discussion that month >as well (April 2003). > >http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/pbslist/old.php/2003-April/002727.html >http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/pbslist/old.php/2003-April/002744.html > >When I complained to Rod Saunders about my difficulty getting Nerine to >flower he told me I should be growing the winter rainfall ones. Since that >time I am doing better getting the summer rainfall species to bloom since >they are mostly all in pots where I can give them regular water and >occasional liquid fertilizer. With one exception my ground is too dry in >summer to have them in the ground. I am less successful with the winter >rainfall ones which I should be able to grow which is a contrast from my >usual experience. I ordered Nerine humilis (a winter rainfall species) >from Rhoda and Cameron when we did a group order a couple years ago and it >is now in synch with this hemisphere so perhaps next year it will bloom. > >Nerine platypetala and Nerine angustifolia have just about finished >blooming and N. masoniorum and N. filifolia are just starting. I grow one >that Jim Robinett called a cross between N. flexuousa and undulata, but >flexuosa is now considered to be undulata and the one I have in a pot is >blooming now. For two or three years now some of these I planted in the >ground have bloomed, but usually later than the container ones and so far >I don't see a spike. > >One of my pots of Nerine bowdenii has scapes, but not the other. > >On the other hand the Nerine sarniensis that I got from the Zinkowsi >rescue are hit or miss bloomers. I have tried more water in summer, more >heat in summer, but haven't yet got it figured out. Two of my pots have >scapes at the moment and one started opening yesterday, but many of the >rest are producing leaves so they may skip this year (again). Many of the >ones that have bloomed have been so incredibly beautiful that I am loath >to give up on them. I have a few going from seed I saved so will be >curious to see if those will be more reliable. They are still small at the >moment. > >Mary Sue > >_______________________________________________ >pbs mailing list >pbs@lists.ibiblio.org >http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php ************************************************* Jim Shields USDA Zone 5 Shields Gardens, Ltd. P.O. Box 92 WWW: http://www.shieldsgardens.com/ Westfield, Indiana 46074, USA Tel. ++1-317-867-3344 or toll-free 1-866-449-3344 in USA From crocosmia@blueyonder.co.uk Tue Sep 28 13:55:28 2004 Message-Id: <000801c4a584$59be3400$0de02052@CROCOSMIA> From: "David Fenwick Snr." Subject: Nerine Experience Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2004 18:55:02 +0100 Hi Jim and all, Just to let you all know I've uploaded quite a few new images of Nerine species to my website recently. They can be found on the following page: http://www.theafricangarden.com/page56.html and include the following species. Nerine alta Nerine angustifolia Nerine bowdenii Nerine filamentosa Nerine filifolia Nerine gibsonii Nerine gracilis Nerine humilis Nerine krigei Nerine masoniorum Nerine sandersonii Nerine undulata For those interested I have also uploaded new images of the Amaryllis, Kniphofia, Galtonia and Anomatheca collections, and many from other genera other also. New Crocosmia and Tulbaghia images will be added in the next couple of weeks. Photo Galleries see: http://www.theafricangarden.com/page2.html For those of you who know why I've been a little quiet recently. My son has settled down here really well now and he starts his new school on Monday. Hopefully I'll have a little more time for gardening now. Best Wishes, Dave David Fenwick The African Garden 96 Wasdale Gardens, Estover, Plymouth, Devon. England. PL6 8TW Tel: 44 (0)1752 301402 NCCPG National Plant Reference Collections of Crocosmia with Chasmanthe, Tulbaghia, Eucomis with Galtonia, Freesia (Anomatheca Group) and Amaryllis Websites The African Garden www.theafricangarden.com Wildflowers of the Devon and Cornwall Peninsula www.aphotoflora.com Crocosmia Heritage www.crocosmiaheritage.com --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.769 / Virus Database: 516 - Release Date: 24/09/2004 From voltaire@islandnet.com Tue Sep 28 14:48:59 2004 Message-Id: From: Diane Whitehead Subject: Flores & Watson Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2004 11:48:51 -0700 Not yet, and I bought from the last list, so expect to get one this year, unless all the new government regulations mentioned in the previous list have made collecting impossible. Diane Whitehead From c-mueller@tamu.edu Tue Sep 28 17:51:13 2004 Message-Id: From: "Cynthia Mueller" Subject: Flores & Watson Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2004 16:50:57 -0500 Dear Lee & All, I googled up Flores & Watson, and found a note from them to "Garden Watchdog" website dated January 4, 2004: "We do not run a full-time, full-scale commercial (or even registered) seed harvest business. What we collect is much involved with our other work as botanists, plant investigators and writers. In addition we do not, as a policy, keep seeds in storage from one year to the next. If any are left over, we dispose of them at a much reduced price the second year. This year we have fallen behind with obligations to author and contribute to two major books. We also have a potential very large-scale, five-year field investigation on the horizon and need to clear the decks for this. Various other important projects have also become back-logged. As a result we have made the decision not to collect or produce a list this year. We cannot say when we might begin to collect again. It could even be that other priorities will take over entirely. We realise that this is a disappointment both to our faithful regulars and anyone else who has an interest in Andean seed sources, which are not exactly thick on the ground! However, sadly we have no alternative." John & Anita Watson Hope this answers your question somewhat. Cynthia W. Mueller College Station, TX >>> wpoulsen@pacbell.net 9/28/04 11:39:39 AM >>> Has anyone received this year's Flores & Watson catalog yet? (I.e., did I not get one? It usually comes out before now in my experience.) --Lee Poulsen Pasadena area, California, USDA Zone 9-10 _______________________________________________ pbs mailing list pbs@lists.ibiblio.org http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php From scamp@earthlink.net Tue Sep 28 21:26:21 2004 Message-Id: <410-22004932912621604@earthlink.net> From: "Christine Council" Subject: OOPS Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2004 21:26:21 -0400 HI, I think this is for some one or no one. received by mistake. Bye, Chris > [Original Message] > From: > To: > Date: 9/28/2004 8:33:57 AM > Subject: Re: [pbs] OOPS > > 21-1 would be great. > > Greig > _______________________________________________ > pbs mailing list > pbs@lists.ibiblio.org > http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php From ang.por@aliceposta.it Wed Sep 29 08:23:35 2004 Message-Id: <001a01c4a61e$84a5bae0$110c3552@computer> From: "Angelo Porcelli" Subject: A Nerine experience Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2004 14:19:06 +0200 I do have quite a bit of luck with several Nerine sarniensis hybrids, surely due to the climate rather that my own ability ! This is the first bloom this season http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki/files/Nerine_Quest.jpg Speaking of colours, I don't know how to define it, but it has purple and even a shade of blue IMO. I have found the sarniensis hybrids to be more reliable than the pure sarniesis corusca and 'Afterglow' is by far the best of all, although it has the shape of bowdenii flowers. Angelo Porcelli south of Italy...where Sternbergia lutea blooming now, remind us that summer is gone From eez55@earthlink.net Wed Sep 29 21:12:10 2004 Message-Id: <41200494301200770@earthlink.net> From: "Eugene Zielinski" Subject: Flores & Watson Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2004 21:20:0 -0400 I have an odd request. I'd like to see a copy of the Flores and Watson seed list, even one that is out of date. If you don't mind copying and mailing a list to me, please contact me off line. (eez55 at earthlink.net) Thanks. Eugene Zielinski Augusta, GA From totototo@pacificcoast.net Mon Sep 27 10:58:31 2004 Message-Id: From: "Rodger Whitlock" Subject: Flower photography. Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2004 08:04:06 -700 On 25 Sep 04 at 18:35, Den Wilson wrote: > I thought I'd pass on the following advice from a photographer who > took wonderful images of alpines in the wild. The notes were > originally intended for 35mm SLR cameras but I've found they work > extremely well with digital: > > 1. Try not to photograph in direct sunlight. If direct sunlight is > unavoidable try to choose early morning or late evening. If possible > provide some light shade (but not dappled shade). Strong light will > dilute the natural colour. A diffuser or even an opaque shade can help with this. The trouble with direct sunlight isn't so much the color balance as it is the contrast between shadows and highlights. Diffuse illumination is what you want. Overcast skies work for that reason. However, you have to watch color balance. An overcast sky has a very high color temperature and a pale yellow filter may be beneficial. Morning and evening light tends to be warmer (i.e. lower color temperature), and may need a filter working in the other direction. > 2. Use a macro, zoom or close-up lens unless you want to capture the > plant in habitat. These lenses have a very short depth of focus and > will throw the background out of focus which has the very desirable > effect of sharpening the subject. I'm afraid this advice has been a bit garbled. Generally speaking, short focal length lenses have a greater depth of field than long focal length lenses. Macro lenses for 355mm cameras typically have focal lengths either around 50 mm or in the 90-100 mm range, the latter having the shallower depth of field. But any lens will have a shallower depth of field if you open the aperture up. My very fast Pentax ƒ/1.2 50mm lens will have a much shallower shallow depth of field at ƒ/1.2 than my Pentax ƒ/4 50mm macro lens at ƒ/32. I think what you've written would be better broken into two parts: 2a. Use a purpose-made macro lens, a close-up lens attachment, or a zoom lens with a macro feature for in-habitat plant photography. A true macro lens differs from an ordinary lens of the same focal length in (a) being able to focus at shorter lens-subject distances and (b) having a flat focal surface with very little barrel distortion. True macro lenses tend to have smaller maximum apertures than ordinary lenses of the same focal length, but this is not a hard and fast rule. 2b. Use a wide aperture to give a shallow depth of field, thereby throwing the background out of focus and making the subject seem sharper in contrast. However, a known strategy for wildflower photography is to shoot so that both the subject plant and the background are in focus, the latter giving context to the former. Be aware that cranking down the aperture smaller than about ƒ/8 to get depth of field may cause some loss of sharpness from diffraction effects. > 3. The key to good flower photography is the point of focus. > Remember that anything between your chosen point of focus and the > camera will be blurred, whilst anything beyond your point of focus > will remain clear for a short distance (the depth of focus). With > close-up images it is very important to focus accurately on the > anthers if present. If not, consider focusing on the stigma. It is > usually a mistake to focus deep into the throat of a flower which > will throw the anthers, stigma and outer segments out of focus. No comment here. > 4. Learn to give yourself time to study the image through the > viewfinder before you press the trigger. Make sure your chosen > point of focus is crystal clear. Usually, what you see is what > you get. Oh so true! One of our local folks does a lot of wildflower photography; she pays very close attention to what she sees in the viewfinder, and I am gradually learning to mimic her ways, removing distracting twigs, blades of grass, etc from the scene. You've probably travelled a long way to photograph that plant: don't be in a rush to snap it; take your time. And take several shots while you are at it. > My note: The above was mostly aimed at 'in the field' photography. > It is possible to get good results by using a standard lens and a > background screen but remember that the 'chosen point of focus' rule > and light consideration still applies. The depth of focus will be > much longer. Again, I get the sense of some confusion here. My two Pentax 50mm lenses (the very fast ƒ/1.2 and the slow ƒ/4 macro) will have identical depths of field if set to the same aperture, say ƒ/8. There have been some excellent guidebooks published on macro and closeup photography. Look around for one if you want to get a better grip on your wildflower technique. -- Rodger Whitlock Victoria, British Columbia, Canada Maritime Zone 8, a cool Mediterranean climate on beautiful Vancouver Island From totototo@pacificcoast.net Mon Sep 27 23:38:01 2004 Message-Id: From: "Rodger Whitlock" Subject: More on color Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2004 20:43:38 -700 On 26 Sep 04 at 15:34, Susan Hayek wrote: > I have a friend who... prefers a garden with only whites, creams and > blushes (I hesitate to say pale pale apricot). I have one area in my > garden that was planted that way and personally I found it rather > uninteresting, color-wise. > > Color theory is just that. Theory. > The reality is a different reality to each person. This reminds me of the old adage "pastel plants for pastel people." -- Rodger Whitlock Victoria, British Columbia, Canada Maritime Zone 8, a cool Mediterranean climate on beautiful Vancouver Island From ConroeJoe@aol.com Thu Sep 30 18:25:06 2004 Message-Id: <8d.1614c647.2e8de1bc@aol.com> From: ConroeJoe@aol.com Subject: those darn Crinum names Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2004 18:25:00 EDT Hi, Does anyone know if Crinum schmidtii is the same plant as C. moorei var. schmidtii? Also, where does C. carlo-schmidtii fit into the picture; is it a form or C. moorei? Cordially, Joe cooler nights lately, time to plant Eucalyptus seeds