Jim, I believe you are taking the proper approach. From my own work with hemerocallis i have found that dark tones are reliant on a few factors. 1) concentration of pigment(s) and 2) types of pigments. Basically, all plants are pigmented through a combination of water soluble anthocyanin pigements and fat soluble carotenes. The carotenes are all yellow to orange, verging on warm red. Anthocyanins are magenta to purple pigments that vary their tone according to the pH of the vacuole they inhabit. Interestingly, cyanidin (magenta) and delphinidin (blue-lavender), two of the most common anthocyanins, will produce an almost black colour in high enough concentrations at a relatively high pH. I do not know if both are present in Hippeastrum (Amaryllids), but the chances are very good. Interestingly, there is, also, a pH window whereby the pigments become colourless! Now, if these pigments are present over a yellow ground, the tone will lean to brown and appear dirty. This is due to the transparency of the anthocyanins, which lie on the surface of the tissues and are not deeply imbedded, as are the carotenes. The clearest reds and purples are created when the carotenes are absent or in a very low concentration. I would think that crossing pure white cultivars with the most intensive deep red-violets would bring the purest colours. Concentration of pigmentation through selection would then be the next step. A method of determining carotene presence is to gently wash the floral parts in warm, soapy water. The anthocyanins will largely wash out leaving the carotenes. You mentioned the different colouring of the venation. This is common as the anthocyanins are carried through the water system of the plant and may concentrate in the veins. If you are seeing two different colours, then we may well have at least two main anthocyanins. Hope this info helps. This would be exciting! Jamie V. Cologne ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jim Lykos" <jimlykos@optusnet.com.au> To: "Pacific Bulb Society" <pbs@lists.ibiblio.org> Sent: Friday, November 11, 2005 10:35 AM Subject: Re: [pbs] About breeding hippeastrum > Hi Carol, > > I have been thinking about the same Hippeastrum breeding goal - a strong dark red-black Hippeastrum. There were a couple of marvelous Hippeastrum breeders here in Australia that lifted the bar considerably on getting darker toward black Hippeastrum hybrids. > The Larssen's 'Black Beauty', 121, Bloodline and the Macguires 'Nana Parnell' are the names of the darkest Red Hippeastrums I know about or have seen. > > I've managed to buy a couple of these very dark red Hippeastrums, and have tried reciprocal crosses with the aim of extending the darker fine velvety texture. What I have noticed is that some dark red Hippeastrum flowers have purple venation and its the combination of red and purple that creates the black colour in the petals - and this is sometimes concentrated in the dorsal and flowers throat. The furry cilliation that looks like a velvet texture on the surface of the petals also contributes to blocking the expression of red in a dark bloom. > > So my attempts have been to cross the solid dark reds with cultivars displaying dark violet, strong solid pink-purple and dark mauve velvety petal colours, with the hope that some of the offspring will combine the colours producing red with strong purple pigments - making a near black flower. > Surprisingly taking a picture of a dark red flower is a problem with digital photos as a camera flash is needed, and the flash usually brightens the colour to make the flower look bright red with a blackish throat. However in reality the flower has the same colour as the throat. > The most advanced of my hybrid seedlings for dark red flowers are one to two seasons from flowering. > Cheers > > Jim Lykos > Springwood > Australia > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > pbs mailing list > pbs@lists.ibiblio.org > http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php >