Hi, can anyone supply me with seed of Veltheimia other than bracteata, I am happy to pay for it. Regards Milton Edwards On 21 Dec 2007 at 20:09, pbs-request@lists.ibiblio.org wrote: From: pbs-request@lists.ibiblio.org Subject: pbs Digest, Vol 59, Issue 11 To: pbs@lists.ibiblio.org Send reply to: pbs@lists.ibiblio.org Date sent: Fri, 21 Dec 2007 20:09:47 -0500 > Send pbs mailing list submissions to > pbs@lists.ibiblio.org > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > pbs-request@lists.ibiblio.org > > You can reach the person managing the list at > pbs-owner@lists.ibiblio.org > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > than "Re: Contents of pbs digest..." > > > List-Post:<mailto:pbs@lists.ibiblio.org> > List-Archive:<http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/pbslist/> > > Today's Topics: > > 1. Re: Question about Naked Ladies (J.E. Shields) > 2. Subject headings (Mary Sue Ittner) > 3. Rassenkries and Lilium grayi- canadense; was Re: Question > about Naked Ladies (Jim McKenney) > 4. Re: Question about Naked Ladies (JamieV.) > 5. Introgression. Was: Question about Naked Ladies (J.E. Shields) > 6. Blooming now... was N...Ldies. (Marguerite English) > 7. Commercial sales of protected plants (Jim McKenney) > 8. Re: Commercial sales of protected plants (Marguerite English) > 9. Re: Commercial sales of protected plants (Diane Whitehead) > 10. Re: Commercial sales of protected plants (Donald Journet) > 11. Re: Commercial sales of protected plants (Robin Hansen) > 12. Re: Commercial sales of protected plants (Kenneth Hixson) > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Message: 1 > Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2007 14:41:40 -0500 > From: "J.E. Shields" <jshields@indy.net> > Subject: Re: [pbs] Question about Naked Ladies > To: Pacific Bulb Society <pbs@lists.ibiblio.org> > Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20071221140722.00b056a8@pop.indy.net> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed > > Steve, Jim McK., Jane, and all, > > I also encountered the term Rassenkreis first in regard to Lepidoptera, but > specifically to the butterfly Junonia coenia, which also ranges from > Florida across the central USA to Mexico and Central America. It its case, > I think there is at best very limited fertility between the Florida and the > Central American forms, but with the same continuous fertility between > neighboring populations. Steve described the situation very well > indeed. I'm pretty fluent in German, but I also had to check the spelling > before proceeding with my original posting. > > I thank Jim McK. for reassuring me that cline is also applicable. "Cline" > might be more botanical, or it might be just a matter of years. I > encountered "Rassenkreis" at least 40 years ago. It could easily have > fallen by the wayside in that length of time, especially considering the > degree of Anglicization of science in the intervening years. > > Jane, I have not encountered "continuum" used in a biological sense > before. This probably shows how narrow my biology reading has been over > the years. > > Whether Jim's Lilium greyii/canadense situation is a cline or a localized > intergradation between two young, mostly allopatric and closely related > species is perhaps debatable. I certainly don't know the situation with > Lilium. > > Where you have two mutually interfertile species existing in sympatric > populations, if there is a barrier, they can be pretty stable. Introducing > the human element may be all that is needed to overcome such a barrier to > interbreeding. I can see where, over time, and intermediate population > could take over or it could be extinguished. If the parent species include > individuals that are not fertile with members of the other species, they > might prosper as the hybrids decrease. > > Getting back to vernacular names, I'd say there are many things you simply > cannot discuss using vernacular names. On the other hand, the day is not > far off when species, local populations, and individuals will be identified > and defined by their DNA. It's just the direction things are going and > will continue to go, barring some Armageddon or other broad catastrophe. > > Best wishes, > Jim Shields > in central Indiana (USA) > > > ************************************************* > Jim Shields USDA Zone 5 Shields Gardens, Ltd. > P.O. Box 92 WWW: http://www.shieldsgardens.com/ > Westfield, Indiana 46074, USA > Tel. ++1-317-867-3344 or toll-free 1-866-449-3344 in USA > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 2 > Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2007 12:32:00 -0800 > From: Mary Sue Ittner <msittner@mcn.org> > Subject: [pbs] Subject headings > To: pbs@lists.ibiblio.org > Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.2.20071221122450.0347fd40@mail.mcn.org> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed > > Since my pleas asking people not to include the previous messages in their > responses often get ignored, I wasn't sure it would help to remind everyone > that is really does help to change the subject headings when you change the > subject. This list has more than 430 members and most of them don't read > every message and look to the subject to give them a clue whether to read > the message or just delete it. Lately the subject headings wouldn't help a > lot. Plus for those who read the archives or do a search on Google and just > look at the subject they would never go much further. And at least one > subscribers email has been rejecting messages with inappropriate content. > I'm not sure what this is, but it could be "Na.ed" ladies. > > So since John brought it up, I going to ask you please to change the > subject heading to fit the subject when this is needed. And please don't > include the previous message, but if you must, only the part you are > responding to. > > To those of you who already do this, thanks from all of us. > > Mary Sue > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 3 > Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2007 15:39:33 -0500 > From: "Jim McKenney" <jimmckenney@jimmckenney.com> > Subject: [pbs] Rassenkries and Lilium grayi- canadense; was Re: > Question about Naked Ladies > To: "'Pacific Bulb Society'" <pbs@lists.ibiblio.org> > Message-ID: <000a01c84411$987b9d70$2f01a8c0@Library> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > > Jim S., you and I are about the same age I think. I'm of the Rassenkreis > generation, too. After posting my original message on this broad topic, I > happened to check the wiki entry for cline and noticed that that entry uses > a translation of Rassenkreis: ring species. > > By the way, I was not suggesting that the situation with Lilium canadense > and L. grayi should be described as a cline. Cline, as usually understood, > does not really describe what can be seen there, where there is a rather > abrupt transition zone between one entity with a vast range (L. canadense) > and another entity which is highly localized (L. grayi). It's fun to > speculate about these things. Is Lilium canadense "capturing" Lilium grayi? > Is L. grayi infiltrating L. canadense? There is definitely something going > on between them. Jim, your description of the situation "a localized > intergradation between two young, mostly allopatric and closely related > species" is about the way I would describe it - but I would omit the words > "species" and "young". > > Why? Aren't all sexually reproducing species of equal age? What does it mean > to call some young and by implication others old? Hasn't there been an > unbroken continuum of parents and progeny from the present back into > unimaginably distant time for all sexually reproducing organisms? I don't > consider my ancestry to be any younger than that of a turtle - it's just > that mine has not been so conservative and has been a lot less stable and a > lot more opportunistic. > > One other note, this one definitely meant humorously. Lilium grayi is now > evidently well protected for most of the threats which it faced in the past > (poaching for instance) or potentially faces in the future (site development > for instance). But it seems to me that it still faces a real danger which, > I'll bet, has not been addressed: what are the protectors of Lilium grayi > going to do about the hummingbird problem? It's the hummingbirds which are > mixing things up here. Something's got to be done about them. > > > Jim McKenney > jimmckenney@jimmckenney.com > Montgomery County, Maryland, USA, USDA zone 7 where it's time to get back to > potting bulbs (yes, I'm still at it). > My Virtual Maryland Garden http://www.jimmckenney.com/ > BLOG! http://mcwort.blogspot.com/ > > Webmaster Potomac Valley Chapter, NARGS > Editor PVC Bulletin http://www.pvcnargs.org/ > > Webmaster Potomac Lily Society http://www.potomaclilysociety.org/ > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 4 > Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2007 21:53:31 +0100 > From: "JamieV." <jamievande@freenet.de> > Subject: Re: [pbs] Question about Naked Ladies > To: Pacific Bulb Society <pbs@lists.ibiblio.org> > Message-ID: <476C27CB.1050706@freenet.de> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed > > Just a thought, but I think the term you are looking for is > 'intergression'. It is often used when discussing reticulate evolution, > which is the evolutionary theory that speciation is like a group of > rivulets that flow in and out of each other over time, creating at any > given moment in time that what we define as species. Intergression is > the scale of diversity between two disparate entities, such as certain > life-forms that span the planet and show form diversity, in many papers > this is refered to hybridization. One could see the two ends of the > spectrum intergressing across the genetic diversity of intermediates or > hybrids. > > I've noted that various 'schools' of science seem to use different > vocabularies to define similar principles. Sort of like the use of > common names....hmmm. Cline I remember from my school years, refering > to a series of related entities and also fits the definition partially, > while Rassenkreis, which literally translates to circle of races, ist > mir neu (is new to me!). I would think this is the same thing as cline. > I think most schools now use clade, the relation groups/units used for > cladistics. > > In the big picture all things are related and the result of continuous > evolutionary flow. That would be intergression in the reticulate > sense. Now, if we could just nail the evolution of the involved > vocabulary! I get the feeling the names have been altered, as the need > to hone the definition has evolved, which means, depending on when a > particular text was published, the vocabulary may need to be translated. > > It this getting confusing? > > Wishing you all a wonderful holiday season, > > Jamie V. > Cologne > Germany > > J.E. Shields schrieb: > > Steve, Jim McK., Jane, and all, > > > > I also encountered the term Rassenkreis first in regard to Lepidoptera, but > > specifically to the butterfly Junonia coenia, which also ranges from > > Florida across the central USA to Mexico and Central America. It its case, > > I think there is at best very limited fertility between the Florida and the > > Central American forms, but with the same continuous fertility between > > neighboring populations. Steve described the situation very well > > indeed. I'm pretty fluent in German, but I also had to check the spelling > > before proceeding with my original posting. > > > > I thank Jim McK. for reassuring me that cline is also applicable. "Cline" > > might be more botanical, or it might be just a matter of years. I > > encountered "Rassenkreis" at least 40 years ago. It could easily have > > fallen by the wayside in that length of time, especially considering the > > degree of Anglicization of science in the intervening years. > > > > Jane, I have not encountered "continuum" used in a biological sense > > before. This probably shows how narrow my biology reading has been over > > the years. > > > > Whether Jim's Lilium greyii/canadense situation is a cline or a localized > > intergradation between two young, mostly allopatric and closely related > > species is perhaps debatable. I certainly don't know the situation with > > Lilium. > > > > Where you have two mutually interfertile species existing in sympatric > > populations, if there is a barrier, they can be pretty stable. Introducing > > the human element may be all that is needed to overcome such a barrier to > > interbreeding. I can see where, over time, and intermediate population > > could take over or it could be extinguished. If the parent species include > > individuals that are not fertile with members of the other species, they > > might prosper as the hybrids decrease. > > > > Getting back to vernacular names, I'd say there are many things you simply > > cannot discuss using vernacular names. On the other hand, the day is not > > far off when species, local populations, and individuals will be identified > > and defined by their DNA. It's just the direction things are going and > > will continue to go, barring some Armageddon or other broad catastrophe. > > > > Best wishes, > > Jim Shields > > in central Indiana (USA) > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 5 > Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2007 16:41:24 -0500 > From: "J.E. Shields" <jshields@indy.net> > Subject: [pbs] Introgression. Was: Question about Naked Ladies > To: Pacific Bulb Society <pbs@lists.ibiblio.org> > Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20071221163458.0360c408@pop.indy.net> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed > > Jamie, > > Close, but probably no cigar! I think the word is "introgression" -- the > introduction of a gene from one species into another through hybridization > and backcrossing (more or less). > > Between the lot of us, we seem to eventually get there...... I could not > find the "-gression" part on my own. When you provided it, it only took me > two or three hours to come up with the "intro-" part. > > As for Jim McK.'s hummingbirds, there is probably nothing we can do about > them. Maybe put up lots of hummingbird feeders around the hybrid > populations, to limit their further reproduction? > > This all started with a perfectly legitimate and innocent question from > Marguerite, about what the real name for some "Naked Ladies" that grow in > her town might be. > > Regards, > Jim Shields > > > At 09:53 PM 12/21/2007 +0100, you wrote: > >Just a thought, but I think the term you are looking for is > >'intergression'. > > ************************************************* > Jim Shields USDA Zone 5 Shields Gardens, Ltd. > P.O. Box 92 WWW: http://www.shieldsgardens.com/ > Westfield, Indiana 46074, USA > Tel. ++1-317-867-3344 or toll-free 1-866-449-3344 in USA > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 6 > Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2007 15:30:12 -0800 > From: Marguerite English <meenglis@meenglis.cts.com> > Subject: [pbs] Blooming now... was N...Ldies. > To: Pacific Bulb Society <pbs@lists.ibiblio.org> > Message-ID: <476C4C84.5030905@meenglis.cts.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed > > And it has gone in a fascinating direction, as always in the forum. > My long-term choice is to buy one of each possibility for this spring > and check them out more thoroughly than I have in the past... > > One of my favorite blues is now showing off in the plant room. Morea > polystacha has one of the best blue colors there is! Each blossom > doesn't last long, but there has been a new one each day for several > days now. I have been trying to feed my winter-blooming bulbs better, > and it does seem to make a difference. Also some red cyclamen (I don't > know the species, and hesitate to call them Florist Cyclamen (g)) just > in time for Christmas. > > Also blooming although not geophytes: Streptocarpus in a hanging > pot, a few orchids, and the camellias. I keep reading that camellias > are hardy outside here, but I get nasty Santa Ana winds just as they > start blooming, so they are much better inside. > > > J.E. Shields wrote: > > This all started with a perfectly legitimate and innocent question from > > Marguerite, about what the real name for some "Naked Ladies" that grow in > > her town might be. > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 7 > Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2007 18:32:09 -0500 > From: "Jim McKenney" <jimmckenney@jimmckenney.com> > Subject: [pbs] Commercial sales of protected plants > To: "'Pacific Bulb Society'" <pbs@lists.ibiblio.org> > Message-ID: <000a01c84429$b5d915b0$2f01a8c0@Library> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > > I?ve been reading a lot lately about Lilium grayi and the efforts to protect > it. The nominal species is evidently still in commerce. > > > > It occurred to me that it would make good sense to have government > subsidized programs to propagate certain endangered plant species and to > support their establishment as commercial crops. The chief advantage of this > is that it would kill the incentives for poaching and allow the widespread > distribution of germplasm. The plant loving public would get their plants, > and by removing the economic incentives for poaching, the wild populations > would be under much reduced pressures from collectors. > > > > It seems to me that most of the current management programs I know about > have the opposite effect: they result in the concentration and localization > of germplasm and they (unintentionally I?m sure) enhance the perception > that the plants are worth having simply because they are rare. There is an > undeniable cachet in having rare plants ? newspaper articles about the cycad > cult were a good expos? of this. > > > > I know some object to such an approach because it might result in the > willy-nilly distribution of material which would obfuscate distribution > studies. Modern technology might come to the rescue here: if records of the > DNA fingerprints of the plants distributed are kept, that should obviate > that objection. > > > > How do the rest of you feel about this? > > > > > > Jim McKenney > > jimmckenney@jimmckenney.com > > Montgomery County, Maryland, USA, USDA zone 7 > > My Virtual Maryland Garden http://www.jimmckenney.com/ > > BLOG! http://mcwort.blogspot.com/ > > > > Webmaster Potomac Valley Chapter, NARGS > > Editor PVC Bulletin http://www.pvcnargs.org/ > > > > Webmaster Potomac Lily Society http://www.potomaclilysociety.org/ > > > > > > > > > > Jim McKenney > > jimmckenney@jimmckenney.com > > Montgomery County, Maryland, USA, USDA zone 7 > > My Virtual Maryland Garden http://www.jimmckenney.com/ > > BLOG! http://mcwort.blogspot.com/ > > > > Webmaster Potomac Valley Chapter, NARGS > > Editor PVC Bulletin http://www.pvcnargs.org/ > > > > Webmaster Potomac Lily Society http://www.potomaclilysociety.org/ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 8 > Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2007 16:16:28 -0800 > From: Marguerite English <meenglis@meenglis.cts.com> > Subject: Re: [pbs] Commercial sales of protected plants > To: Pacific Bulb Society <pbs@lists.ibiblio.org> > Message-ID: <476C575C.9090802@meenglis.cts.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed > > Seems to me that the government doesn't have a charter for this. What > about the Lily group or even PBS developing a program to propagate and > distribute such species, and working for a legal way to handle protected > species. This could start with rescue of threatened populations. It > would require someone to come up with a well-defined program, and an > adequate means of distribution. Could this be a more effective way to > go about the protection of endangered plants? > > Jim McKenney wrote: > > It occurred to me that it would make good sense to have government > > subsidized programs to propagate certain endangered plant species and to > > support their establishment as commercial crops. > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 9 > Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2007 16:41:03 -0800 > From: Diane Whitehead <voltaire@islandnet.com> > Subject: Re: [pbs] Commercial sales of protected plants > To: Pacific Bulb Society <pbs@lists.ibiblio.org> > Message-ID: <3D45DC3E-36D5-4A62-97AD-EAD2B98044E7@islandnet.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes > > I know this was done to protect two newly-discovered plants, a new > species of Clivia in South Africa, and a new conifer in Australia. > > I haven't seen the clivia for sale, but the Wollemi pine has been > bought by friends of mine for a bit over $100. > > Diane > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 10 > Date: Sat, 22 Dec 2007 11:52:25 +1100 > From: Donald Journet <donjournet@netspace.net.au> > Subject: Re: [pbs] Commercial sales of protected plants > To: Pacific Bulb Society <pbs@lists.ibiblio.org> > Message-ID: <476C5FC9.7000908@netspace.net.au> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed > > Wollemi pine is now selling for a lot less than $100 in Australia. I > think it may be down to $25 now. > Don Journet > > Diane Whitehead wrote: > > > > I haven't seen the clivia for sale, but the Wollemi pine has been > > bought by friends of mine for a bit over $100. > > > > Diane > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > pbs mailing list > > pbs@lists.ibiblio.org > > http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php > > http://pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki/ > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 11 > Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2007 16:53:52 -0800 > From: "Robin Hansen" <hansennursery@coosnet.com> > Subject: Re: [pbs] Commercial sales of protected plants > To: "Pacific Bulb Society" <pbs@lists.ibiblio.org> > Message-ID: <008001c84435$218ca500$8df064d0@homed4aec9b2d8> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > > Margureite, > > You address a sore spot that has irked me for years. What's the good of putting something on the endangered list and not allowing people to legitimately propagate and sell these plants? > > It's all very well to preserve genetic material and reintroduce it into previous native habitats, but who knows how successful those reintroductions are. Then we have the case of Cyclamen somalense. > > It has been years since this was collected; the three plants brought out of Somalia may have bloomed but have not (to my knowledge) set seed. > > This plant may be lost before we ever get a chance to save it. Granted this is an extreme example, but Russ Graham can tell you a great horror story about what happens when a state (in this case Oregon) found out he was growing an endangered plant (and may also have offered the option of turning it over to the uncertain future fo state custody) and demanded that he destroy his stock. I don't recall the plant but it was one specialist growers were able to grow. It may not have ever entered the mainstream of good garden growers, but certainly would not have disappeared. > > So finding a way to legitimize commercial growing of endangered plants is something worth working for. > > Robin Hansen > Cyclamen specialist > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 12 > Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2007 17:09:43 -0800 > From: Kenneth Hixson <khixson@nu-world.com> > Subject: Re: [pbs] Commercial sales of protected plants > To: Pacific Bulb Society <pbs@lists.ibiblio.org> > Message-ID: <476C63D7.7070308@nu-world.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed > > Marguerite English wrote: > > Seems to me that the government doesn't have a charter for this. What > > about the Lily group or even PBS developing a program to propagate and > > distribute such species, and working for a legal way to handle protected > > species. This could start with rescue of threatened populations. It > > would require someone to come up with a well-defined program, and an > > adequate means of distribution. Could this be a more effective way to > > go about the protection of endangered plants? > > > > Jim McKenney wrote: > >> It occurred to me that it would make good sense to have government > >> subsidized programs to propagate certain endangered plant species and to > >> support their establishment as commercial crops. > > > Seems to me a couple things are not being mentioned > here, such as the fact that if a private (ie, commercial) > source were to make endangered species available, there would > be no need for a government worker to do the "rescue", and > no need for a government manager to submit grant requests, etc. > Big brother has repeatedly shown that only big brother is > looking out for what is best for us--even if we disagree. > The North American Lily Society has an affiliated group-- > called the Species Lily Preservation Group, with a propagation > and distribution (sales)program. Membership requires dues > (to the SPLG). I don't happen to be a member, so I don't know > to what extent the recent illness of Ed McRae has affected > the program, but other members of PBS are, and probably > can give further details. The URL for the lily society is: > > http://www.lilies.org/ > > The Species Lily Preservation Group: > > http://www.lilies.org/slpg.html > Dues are listed at $12.00/year. > > In these days of tissue culture, it only takes > a stem tip, or an immature bud, to produce thousands of > plants--or any number desired. The techniques and procedures > are known, the facilities are available, it just takes > money, a little time, and the willingness on the part > of big brother to allow it to happen. We could be > re-establishing rare/endangered plant species back into > suitable habitats, without government funded programs. > If big brother wants to fund it, it could be done without > any more governmental programs. Alternatively, something > like the BLM (Bureau of Land Management) or Forest Service, > the Soil Conservation Service, or state land grant Universities > could oversee this kind of program. > > Idealistic? Yes, but it could happen. > > Ken > > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > pbs mailing list > pbs@lists.ibiblio.org > http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php > > > End of pbs Digest, Vol 59, Issue 11 > *********************************** >