I have just discovered a very interesting abstract of germination tests done in Japan on Erythronium japonicum. It is easy to read - I didn't have to use my botanical dictionary. http://www.amjbot.org/cgi/content/full/89/11/1779/ They tested keeping the seeds at various temperatures before attempting germination, and then germinating them at various temperatures and with various amounts of light. They didn't just toss the seeds out if they didn't germinate. Instead, they sliced them open to see what was happening. They found, as one example, that the embryo grew to double its original size at a certain high temperature, but didn't grow enough to germinate. In the wild, the seeds are shed in the summer but don't germinate then because they have immature embryos. The embryos elongate in the fall when temperatures are moderate, and finish germination by the arrival of freezing temperatures in November. They are under snowcover until spring, and that is when they emerge. I wonder if anyone has done similarly detailed experiments with our North American species? Diane Whitehead Victoria, British Columbia, Canada maritime zone 8, cool Mediterranean climate mild rainy winters, mild dry summers