Thank you Bob Pries. It's good to hear from you again and to note your accurate points and comments about invasiveness. I must point out that not just you but others seem to have gotten Sarah Reichard's name wrong. First point: Know thine enemy. The issue of invasiveness is not only an issue affecting plants so it's important to charcterize it properly to deal with it. I could say that it's a psychological problem (because it is) related to fear of invasive entities, racial, sexual, etc., and that would be true also, but not necessarily useful in mounting a strategy for dealing with it. Second point: Invasiveness is probably best understood as characteristic of living organisms (and non-living organisms that are capable of propagating themselves--e.g., viruses and prions), not limited to plants--so experts in the area can be limited by the concepts that organize how we think of botany are not going to be sufficient to cope with the problem. They're guaranteed to fall short, just as most prohibitive laws would be-- (at least in the temporary sense). Third point: We are not going to stop evolution, through passing restrictive laws against it-- however disguised. Nor by saying that this plant shall pass and that one shall not--nor by noting relationships between plants and their invaders and trying to erect barriers between them. The better models for the control of the problem are probably to be found in Public Health where relative successes can be documented to control the spread of poliomyelitis, smallpox, yellow fever, malaria, brucellosis, tuberculosis, tetanus, rabies . Now granted, control of these diseases occurs not because we must fight against people wanting to grow polio in their garden, nor because anybody particularly wants to grow mosquitoes for their incredible beauty. (And they ARE beautiful masterworks of biological engineering--superbly fitted to their ecological niches) But we do have countervailing forces, that are societal -- against controls-- in the form of religious fundamentalists or uninformed people who don't want their kids vaccinated who can act as pockets of infection or vectors for disease., people with vested economic interests against modeds of farming that might use less of certain insecticides, or less fertilizer derived from mining, or who through misguided beliefs in "natural" products don't want their milk pasteurized and are willling to risk letting their kids get sick. Fourth point: This generally is a psychological problem and a sociological problem, and to be sure, a religious and legal problem, and needs to be so considered to make any real headway. Since the problem is so broad and all-encompassing, it can only be solved by recourse to an equally large and encompassing body of knowledge organized to act in a concerted manner. This body would be whether one likes it or not, theoretical considerations aside... A government responsive to its people. Market forces won't do it, because the market is implicated in a worser manner than any government is. And "the market" does not "move to correct itself"-- that idea is a fictional construct. People do this. People are not a fictional construct. So-- to the extent that the people in the USDA see this as a problem which has been growing for some years, and needs some attention... What they've proposed seems to be entirely appropriate, at this point of inflection in time-- given the limitations of our language and people's knowledge of it and attention to details. What we need to do is let them know that we're watching and that we care what they do and provide them with whatever expertise we may have. If the USDA follows the lead of Australia and New Zealand here, and they may-- then any records of a plant having been introduced to and grown in the U.S. prior to the enactment of a ban or restriction would be a reason for considering entry and transport for the plant within the U.S. given that no particular pest was attached to it. or likely to be. 'Similar restrictions operate right now in horticultural commerce without violating "Free Trade" principles. One may not send certain plants to California, AZ, AR and nobody seems worse off for it. Certain plants (purple loosestrife as one example) may not be sold in Illinois even though the plant has escaped to many roadside ditches and is regarded by the uninitiated as a native, along with Hemerocallis fulva var. 'Kwanso' originally brought in as a foodstuff back in the 1800s probably by Chnese laborers working on our railroads but the event has not been documented nor is it fully traceable. Gill-over-the-ground (Glechoma hederacea) was probably brought in in the 1600s as flavoring for gin or a constituent for brewing beer. Invasive as all get out in my yard--and probably others, but not particularly oppressive nor a vector for disease. I am very careful about sending any bits or pieces of this on to anybody I trade plants with, but cannot guarantee that a few seeds might not turn up. I have to confess that I do not know how it propagates itself except by above-ground runners. Tony Avent's idea of master gardeners acting as watchdogs around the country seems to be workable--and may be a best first start, OR-- even a sufficient stage for control of plant pathogens. In fact-- a staging system seems to be quite workable and something that could be put in place--for certain plants via the many plant societies-- whose members could act just as physicians do in reporting communicable diseases to the National Centers of Disease Control and Prevention which bureaucray does a fantastically good and rapid job in tracking and alerting the nation to new sources, e.g, the advent of the new H1N1 swine flu and its spread. Let's not juggle slogans and call it "thinking". We've got some sharp people on this forum. Yeah, I've been sloppy too,. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Robert Pries" <robertpries@embarqmail.com> To: "Pacific Bulb Society" <pbs@lists.ibiblio.org> Sent: Tuesday, July 28, 2009 8:06 AM Subject: Re: [pbs] plant regulation > I know that passions run very high on the topic of invasive plants and I > can’t restrain myself from making a