Dear Friends, Although I have vaguely followed the discussion, there is an air of blind leading blind. The range of variation from a hybrid cultivar to a valid species of hybrid origin is the topic of long weeks of discussion in any college taxonomy course. Not for twitter replies. I suggest that if anyone is seriously interested, to look at the appropriate heading in "International Code of Botanical Nomenclature" or "International Code of Nomenclature for Cultivated Plants". Versions of both are available on line, although not the newest of either. A similar code is available for Zoological Nomenclature. There are numerous validly described and named species that are now known to be of natural hybrid origin. Jane McGary mentions a small fraction. Each case is the result of careful consideration. I don't even know where to start here, but do read something relatively factual instead of making guesses and going off on tangents. Best Jim W. -- Dr. James W. Waddick 8871 NW Brostrom Rd. Kansas City Missouri 64152-2711 USA Ph. 816-746-1949 Zone 5 Record low -23F Summer 100F +