Yeah, Lee. I too have had a plant import license for years, (more than 50) imported stuff from Syria, Turkey---once in diplomatic pouch . The current situation increases the size of government,without, I suspect, offering necessary protection. Of course no studies have been done. "Wasteful spending". A "threat to national security" Gotta have bigger guns on it. More regulations---all of them appaently rational, once one accepts the national defense premise, and the myth that privatization can do it cheaper. (And it can-- if you accept the idea that jobs will be lost,that wil eventually cost the government more over the years) This is MY rant--probably socialist or something. ge ----- From: "Lee Poulsen" <wpoulsen@pacbell.net> To: "Pacific Bulb Society" <pbs@lists.ibiblio.org> Sent: Sunday, January 23, 2011 7:49 PM Subject: Re: [pbs] More info than you probably need about importinginto theUSA > Can I add a little to what Bill has so kindly explained to us, based on my > experiences only, before and after the small lots of seeds permits were > instituted? > > From about the early 1990s until shortly after the 9/11 attacks, I traded > and even imported both seeds and bulbs from outside the U.S. into the U.S. > without any permits or phytosanitary certificates (PC). I also had a plant > import permit that did and still does require that you get a PC from the > originating country before bringing the plants into the U.S. So I read in > the material that they sent me with that permit that I didn't need to use > the permit to import seeds or dry dormant bulbs. And indeed that is > exactly what I did: I traded seeds with international friends who mailed > them to me in envelopes and packages. I purchased seeds from other > countries (e.g. Silverhill Seeds in South Africa) and had them sent > directly to me without any permit or anything. I ordered bulbs from > British and European companies directly as well as from Australia and New > Zealand. I even brought bulbs and seeds back with me from travels I made > abroad. I even brought back both bulbs and plants from > Japan in my luggage. I got the necessary PC at the Tokyo (Narita) Airport > before boarding my plane back and I only had to get the PC for the live > plants and not for the bulbs or seeds. > > [BTW, Japan up until 8 years ago--I haven't been back since then so don't > know if this is currently true--must have the best and easiest method for > getting a PC of any country in the world. They have inspectors at the > international airport. You call and make an appointment for about 2 hours > before you needed to check in and after arriving at the airport went to > the inspection office where they inspected all your plants for FREE, typed > up a certificate, and sent you on your way!] > > Anyway, not too long after 9/11, the USDA/APHIS/PPQ suddenly announced one > day that they now were going to require PCs and use of a plant import > permit (which is still free--yay!) for any plant material of any kind > including dry dormant bulbs and seeds. When many hobbyists and plant clubs > blew up at this, they pointed out how they had always had the right > according to law to do this, but had decided not to enforce it, lo! all > these many decades. Sure enough, there it was in the law all this time. > But now with increased security being in vogue, they decided to start > enforcing it. I guess most people relented on the bulbs since they can > easily carry viruses, etc. whether growing or dormant, but most seeds due > the biological nature of how they come to form, are usually disease-free > except for a few minor but important cases. Many people, spearheaded by > Joyce Fingerut of NARGS, as Jim W. pointed out spent a lot of effort > writing, emailing, and calling the USDA about how this new > policy would essentially wipe out all legal trading of seeds, especially > in small quantities, between other countries and the U.S., and only large > corporations with the money and means to go through all the hassle of > doing it legally would be the only ones importing seeds. The few times I > called APHIS/PPQ headquarters or emailed them in the early days of this > policy gave me the distinct impression that many of the agents there had > no idea we were all trading seeds or of how difficult and/or expensive it > is in most countries to get a PC, especially by individuals for a very > small quantity of seeds. However, to their credit, as Bill has pointed > out, they were sensitive and listened to all these comments and objections > and not only invited many of us to join their stakeholders list, but came > up with the small lots of seeds permit, which I think is a pretty good > compromise and doesn't require the dreaded PC. I know there have been many > bumps and kinks in getting it working at al > l the inspection stations across the U.S., but I have found that the > agents at the local inspection station by LAX have tried very hard to be > helpful while still trying to understand and follow the new regulations. > They have always tried to help me follow the rules better each time I get > some seeds through them where the sender didn't quite follow the rules > exactly. I really have to give them credit for that. (Still, there is room > for improvement...) > > I only wish there were a similarly easy way to import bulbs. I recently > returned from a business trip to Brazil and Argentina, and got to meet > with both Mauro Peixoto and Mariano Saviello again, and they both told me > how extremely difficult it is to get a PC. Mariano told me it's so > difficult in Argentina that he doesn't even try, and Mauro told me that in > Brazil, the government will only issue PCs to commercial entities and > won't issue them to private individuals making it basically impossible for > him to get one under any circumstance. I'm not sure if there is anything > in the international treaty governing PCs that addresses this, but I'm not > sure our USDA recognizes this difficulty based on the conversations I've > had with our local inspection agents and the national office. In other > countries it can be incredibly expensive such as Australia where they > charge quite a bit and you have to pay in minimum 15-minute increments. In > some countries, you can only obtain a PC at one l > ocation in the capital city and nowhere else, effectively eliminating the > ability to get a PC for individuals who don't live anywhere close to the > capital (and can't afford to travel there due to cost or distance) even if > the U.S. citizen is willing to pay for the PC. From what I've seen, 95% of > the companies in other countries that I've looked into refuse to even try > getting PCs. > > Anyway, this brings me up to the current situation we're in today, which > is by no means perfect, but isn't too bad as far as seed importations are > concerned. I think that APHIS/PPC needs to think more on the bulb > importation method, since one of their stated goals is to make the > regulations such that Americans *want* to follow and support them and not > try to smuggle items in. And the current difficulties with getting PCs > almost everywhere (although not impossible from England or South Africa > for example), make the current regulations for bulb importations such that > people will be strongly tempted to try smuggling some in now and then. > IMHO. > > --Lee Poulsen > Pasadena, California, USA - USDA Zone 10a > > > On Jan 23, 2011, at 3:00 PM, William Aley wrote: > >> the small lots of seed permits do not require a phytosanitary >> certificate. The seeds are inspected at 100% at the USDA Plant Inspection >> Station. The limits to the small lots of seed permit are 50 lots not to >> exceed 50 grams or 50 seeds, each, which ever is greater. Its an >> arbitrary number and amount~ ie: 50 grams of larkspur seed verses 50 >> palm seed. >> Larger lots of seed (often up to several hundreds of Kilos) imported >> under the standard Q37 permit are often sampled by a Department of >> Homeland Security Customs Border Protection (DHS CBP) inspector at the >> first port of US entry, usually in a Customs Bonded warehouse. The >> inspectors could not easily inspect 100 Kilos of seed at 100% and get all >> of the other inspections accomplished in a day. >> >> The authorization as stated on the permit requires a phytosanitary >> certificate for the general permit and except for woody tree seed, a DHS >> CBP inspector can inspect the seed at the first port of entry. Under the >> small lots of seed the shipment must go to a Plant Inspection Station for >> inspection. >> Thus it is not a convenient as far as how fast or when the shipment is >> inspected. Also not all seed requires a permit for import into the USA, >> again know the rules of importation as stated in the CFR. Restrictions >> are based upon disease status of seed borne pathogens and insect pests >> and the country of origin. >> >> The pros and cons: obtain a PC and a CBP inspector can inspect and >> release at any port of entry OR use a small lots of seed permit, limited >> by weight, size and number and it must go to a plant inspection station, >> but no PC is required. >> >> This permit is a concession to individuals who tend to trade as a >> collector or for breeding purposes since the import regulations were put >> in place for commercial imports. Again, 100 years ago most people were >> not importing small amounts of seed into the USA. >> This change is less than 10 years old as a result of the way trade has >> evolved. >> Hope that helps.On Jan 23, 2011, at 1:40 PM, Adam Fikso wrote: >> >>> Re Ellen's good questionwhich I never asked... Was the thinking ever >>> explicated? >>> >>> >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ellen Hornig" <hornig@earthlink.net> >>> To: "Pacific Bulb Society" <pbs@lists.ibiblio.org> >>> Sent: Sunday, January 23, 2011 8:36 AM >>> Subject: Re: [pbs] More info than you probably need about importing into >>> theUSA >>> >>> >>>> Bill A - I'm curious (and I'm not being accusatory - it's not like >>>> you're responsible for this system) - what was the thinking behind >>>> requiring separate permits for small seed lots and general plant (or >>>> large seed lot) imports, when they are, at least as I understand it, >>>> the same type of permit. just differently designated? Why couldn't >>>> those of us who own general permits be allowed to use them for small >>>> seed lots too? >> > > _______________________________________________ > pbs mailing list > pbs@lists.ibiblio.org > http://pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php > http://pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki/