Hi Boyce, Thanks for bravely sticking your neck out and defending the CBD and the demise of your Index Seminum. Preaching to the choir - guilty as charged - can be satisfying but doesn't achieve anything and so it's helpful to hear the argument for the defence. Please don't take the following attempt to rebut some of your arguments personally. It's intended in the spirit of robust but friendly debate. Do you really believe that the exchange of seeds among botanic gardens and private gardeners creates such a risk of inadvertently releasing invasive plant species that these concerns outweigh the benefit to ex situ conservation of sharing rare plant species among many institutions and individuals? If so, why not go the whole hog and destroy your entire living library for fear of accidentally permitting another one to escape. And, for that matter, why stop at Chicago Botanic Garden? Let's bulldoze Missouri, the Arnold Arboretum and Kew while we're at it. That should certainly reduce the risk of plant invasion. And if you are concerned about moving potentially invasive species among countries, why would you encourage your scientists to go collect them in other countries and bring them back? Are these the same scientists who expressed concerns about the Index Seminum? Isn't this a case of double standards? When I visit Kew (surrounded by impressive brick walls) I can't help noti cing that birds and wind are not much troubled by these barriers but I can't say I've noticed any invading plant species on nearby Richmond Common. Perhaps they are held at bay by the (deliberately introduced and lovingly protected) deer. The local waterways are being undermined, however, by the rapidly growing population of Chinese Mitten Crabs (see here http://nhm.ac.uk/nature-online/life/…), introduced in ships' ballast a century ago. Perhaps we should ban shipping too? Surely your scientists could use their time more constructively by helping nurserymen (we're not very well educated and need all the help we can get) understand which plants are most likely to become invasive? Come off it! A tiny minority of plants is potentially invasive and it seems downright silly to argue from the precautionary principle that all seed exchanges should cease without reflection on the adverse consequences. Your point about distributing seed as a true exemplar of the species when it may be of hybrid origin is well made. In the nursery trade this practice is known as fraud and is frowned upon. If anyone is in a position to hand pollinate and distribute authentic seed of rare species it is surely botanic gardens. If botanic gardens don't have the resources (those pesky budget cuts), why not outsource the task to passionate and knowledgeable private individuals who would be glad to render the service for free. Oh wait, I forgot that those individuals might fail to send a cheque to the government of the country where the ancestors of the plants once grew. Which brings me on to the Convention on Biological Diversity (CBD) with which you voluntarily comply. The CBD originated in a proposal by the IUCN to enshrine in international law three laudable objectives. 1. A general obligation for all states to conserve biological diversity; 2. the principle of freedom of access to wild genetic resources; and 3. the principle that the cost of conservation should be shared equitably by all nations. The second objective bit the dust as soon as the negotiations started and the bickering centred mainly around what 'equitably' means. As Mark Mazer pointed out, the USA sensibly declined to sign up to the Convention, perhaps weary of bearing the financial burden of the developed world's collective guilt. Whereas Kew or Munich BG, say, have no option but to comply, you do. The law of unintended consequences almost always scuppers the best intentions of law makers attempting to tinker with any system as complex as international trade. And, to be honest, I don't think the intentions were all that good to start with, driven as they were by commercial not conservation imperatives. Developing countries routinely ignore their 'obligation' to conserve biological diversity when it conflicts with their desire to, umm, develop. And why shouldn't they? It is surely patronising in the extreme to preach abstinence from development from a pulpit located in a country where nature is confined to a few small, carefully managed preserves. Because objective two was replaced in the CBD with its exact opposite (the principle that sovereign states have exclusive rights of access to 'their' wild genetic resources) the Convention has had the effect of making it harder, not easier, for states to comply with objective one. This is because every single transaction involving access to genetic resources in another state that has ratified the treaty has to be separately negotiated in good faith. Understandably and completely predictably most institutions and virtually no private individuals can be bothered. The results are that the CBD is ignored by almost everyone and that botanic gardens such as Chicago's spend an absurd proportion of their shrinking budgets negotiating what 'equitably' means with the governments of countries in which they want to collect plants. even more absurdly, they are forced to sign documents that prevent them allowing the propagation for commercial purposes of the plant material they collect. Bu t wait, I thought the CBD was meant to enhance the conservation of biological diversity, including, explicitly, ex situ conservation? Wouldn't propagation by passionate, knowledgeable.... Oh forget it. Boyce, I sincerely sympathise with the difficulties that arise from the conflict between your position as an official of an establishment organisation and your evident desire to share and thereby conserve plant diversity. But if establishment organisations don't start to push back against fatuous and counterproductive treaties like the CBD, we are most definitely lost. Best wishes, Tom > Message: 2 > Date: Thu, 8 Sep 2011 09:04:39 -0500 > From: Boyce Tankersley <btankers@gmail.com> > Subject: Re: [pbs] Botanic Gardens and Seed Exchanges > To: Pacific Bulb Society <pbs@lists.ibiblio.org> > Message-ID: > <CADnnTuDHJquSo3+mHa6U-_Mu8HOjDZw3dGyZeiM+Zn_m0e3ajw@mail.gmail.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 > > Hi All: > > As several threads have indicated, the role of botanic gardens has changed > when it comes to distribution of seeds/excess plants. > > At Chicago Botanic Garden we chose to discontinue the *Index Seminum* due to > concerns some of our scientists studying invasive species had - that seeds > of our native plants would become invasive in other parts of the world (and > they provided some examples to illustrate their point). > > The other concern expressed with seeds from *Index Seminum* is that a > majority of them were collected from plant s in cultivation. The female > parent is known but in many cases the seedlings were hybrids with other > species. In my home garden that may not be an issue but in a living museum > the idea of passing off a hybrid as an exemplar of the species was very > troubling and creates major problems with captive breeding efforts to > generate seeds for re-introduction. > > While we still receive *Index Seminum* from other botanic gardens their > numbers have been drastically reduced over the last ten years. In some > cases because of budget cuts and staffing shortages but in many cases due to > concerns related to the Convention of Biological Diversity (CBD) and > invasive plants. > > Fortunately Chicago Botanic Garden and the Morton Arboretum do have a > mechanism for making rare and unusual ornamental plants available through a > partnership with commercial nurseries called the Chicagoland Grows(TM) > program. A portion of the proceeds are returned to the Garden/Arboretum to > help support on-staff plant breeders and plant collection trips. > Unfortunately, none of the participating nurseries are really focused on > producing geophytes but excess bulbs/plants are frequently offered for sale > through the CBG 'A Rare Affair' auction offered every 2 years. If folks on > this list are interested, I can send a list of geophytes in 2013 that will > be offered for auction in early June of that year - I believe we have, or > are trying, to implement ways that people who can't physically attend the > auction can bid by email/text. Proceeds usually are dedicated to supporting > one or more of the Gardens Science and Education programs. > > Boyce Tankersley > Director of Living Plant Documentation > Chicago Botanic Garden > 1000 Lake Cook Road > Glencoe, IL 60022 > > >> > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 3 > Date: Thu, 8 Sep 2011 10:39:49 -0400 > From: "MARK MAZER AND FREDRIKA MAZER" <markmazerandfm13@earthlink.net> > Subject: Re: [pbs] Botanic Gardens and Seed Exchanges > To: "Pacific Bulb Society" <pbs@lists.ibiblio.org> > Message-ID: <410-22011948143949937@earthlink.net> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII > >> >> While we still receive *Index Seminum* from other botanic gardens their >> numbers have been drastically reduced over the last ten years. In some >> cases because of budget cuts and staffing shortages but in many cases due > to >> concerns related to the Convention of Biological Diversity (CBD) and >> invasive plants. >> > > Folly of course...the treaty has never (20 years or so) been ratified in > the US and the legal enforcement mechanisms are ...what...nonexistant. > > Mark Mazer > Hertford, North Carolina US > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 4 > Date: Thu, 8 Sep 2011 08:54:11 -0700 (PDT) > From: Ken <kjblack@pacbell.net> > Subject: [pbs] whats blooming week of Sept 4th - Haemanthus barkerae > and Nerine angulata > To: pbs@lists.ibiblio.org > Message-ID: > <1315497251.99871.YahooMailClassic@web80402.mail.mud.yahoo.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 > > My first bloom of H.barkerae ... somewhat surprised as I just obtained the bulb last year and it is quite small: > ? > http://flickr.com/photos/amarguy/… > ? > Also, Nerine angulata.? A reliable bloomer and seeder for me, but I have problems getting the seedlings to make it to their second year <-(.?? > ? > http://flickr.com/photos/amarguy/… > ? > Ken Blackford > San Diego? > > ------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > pbs mailing list > pbs@lists.ibiblio.org > http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php > > > End of pbs Digest, Vol 104, Issue 19 > ************************************