Rick wrote: " I do have some oldLemoine Philadelphus hybrids that , for some odd reason never made it into the trade. Pity, as they are top of the line, The hybrid 'Albatre' is incredible! early, super fragrant bells, garden size, not a monster, like some." Yes, the Lemoine hybrid Philadelphus are indeed top of the line. Some of them might have made it into the trade in the early twentieth century - some American books from that period give long lists of these hybrids. Perhaps the understanding was that if you wanted them you were to import them from France. That is no longer possible. The last time I checked (about a year ago), all species of Philadelphus are currently prohibited from entry to the US from western Europe (including England). But some British and European nurseries do have long lists. Few of them are available here in the US and the nomenclature of those which are is evidently confused. Jim McKenney jimmckenney@jimmckenney.com Montgomery County, Maryland, USA, 39.03871º North, 77.09829º West, USDA zone 7 My Virtual Maryland Garden http://www.jimmckenney.com/ <http://www.jimmckenney.com/> BLOG! http://mcwort.blogspot.com/ Webmaster Potomac Valley Chapter, NARGS Editor PVC Bulletin http://www.pvcnargs.org /<http://www.pvcnargs.org/> Webmaster Potomac Lily Society http://www.potomaclilysociety.org/ <http://www.potomaclilysociety.org/>