Cardamine hirsuta

Wed, 03 Apr 2013 22:56:26 PDT
You are correct that correlation is not causation, but in the case I gave as
an illustration, this was the only instance with this result and believe me
I had tried everything else I could think of - fire, vinegar, tilling,
flooding to allow hand weeding....  In discussion with others in this
valley, I found similar experiences.  Yes, there may be something happening
we are not seeing, but it is interesting that many people seem to be having
the same result.

When yards and ranch land are being taken over by plants that the university
specialist haven't a clue as to how to deal with, it can be darn scary.  I
know herbicide resistance is not necessarily related to GMO use, but GMO use
does increase the use of herbicides.  When I can't plant bulbs without them
being either smothered by Whitetop or literally skewered and choked by grass
rhizomes that are as sharp as needles, I get very frustrated.   When a
person owns acreage, but has to resort to growing plants in pots, something
is wrong.  I don't think my reaction is either illogical or superstitious.

As a health professional I am very aware of the downside of herbicide use,
the health consequences of  which can actually be tracked by zip code in
California.  I don't want them on me or in me.  As for organic, UC Davis
found years ago that there are real differences between the way bugs react
to organic and conventional plants.  No I'm not a bug, but I see no reason
to think that my body is not able to tell the difference.


-----Original Message-----
From: []
On Behalf Of Kipp McMichael
Sent: Wednesday, April 03, 2013 9:14 PM
To: Pacific Bulb Society
Subject: Re: [pbs] Cardamine hirsuta

  We all know the adage "correlation is not causation" - but human nature
makes it very hard to apply this concept consistently and we frequently fall
prey to exactly this logical error. The ability of an organism to "come back
with a vengeance" after disturbance is what makes a plant a problemmatic
weed in the first place. As one of the most commonly-used herbicides on the
planet, surely someone has run the 10x10 experiment Nhu suggests.  If
roundup were such a potent weed stimulant, how could we not have
documentation of this effect?
  Concerning Calfornia law and organic farming, the 5 year wait for organic
land is not driven by concerns about Roundup specifically but about all the
other persistent herbicides common in modern farming. Since we cannot know
for certain what herbicides, insecticides or other chemicals have been used
on a piece of land, the law includes a blanket 5-year wait (even though
Roundup alone does not persist for anywhere close to 5 years). Further, 5
years is not actually long enough to insure farmland if free of all
previously used chemicals. But there has to be some reasonable standard that
allows people to gain organic certification (especially since nearly all the
ag land in California was conventionally farmed for decades before the rise
of organic agriculture).
  It is also quite clear from this thread that "GMO" is a topic loaded with
confusion and influenced by what can only be labeled superstition: Why else
would a gardender speculate that GMO contamination was responsible for weeds
being weedy?
  There are indeed serious questions raised by modern farming monoculture,
the overuse of pesticides/herbicides, and environmental impacts of GMO
crops. At the same time however, the organic farming industry also has a
monetary interest in convincing consumers to pay a premium for their
products. Because few of the the actors here can be trusted, it's important
to demand evidence concerning claims from either side.
> From:
> To:
> Date: Wed, 3 Apr 2013 18:32:26 -0700
> Subject: Re: [pbs] Cardamine hirsuta
> A few years ago I caved on my position of having an all organic garden 
> and used some Roundup on a grass that is rhizomatous and endemic to this
> The Agricultural extension could not identify it, but it is broadly known.
> Many go to raised beds as a last resort.  Anyway, the Roundup appeared 
> to kill the stand of the grass in a corner of my vegetable garden, but 
> the next year it came back with a vengeance as if I had spoon fed it a
tasty meal.
> Lepidium latifolium commonly known as Tall Whitetop or just Whitetop
>…  , 
>  is another plant that seems to ignore Roundup.  The flowers are 
> similar in appearance to Baby's Breath so vendors often come to this 
> area to collect the flowers for free and then sell them as Baby's 
> Breath thus spreading the seeds.  It is starting to invade our 
> property and I am at a loss as to how to deal with it.  In the past we 
> have kept it mowed hoping to stunt its growth.  This year I'm 
> considering using a weed burner on it.  The Rancher across the road 
> keeps it controlled by grazing, but it grows in the right-of-way along 
> the road and the seeds blow onto our property.  Grazing controls it in 
> our fields, but I do prefer to have flowers, lawn and vegetables on some
of the land!
> Point- if Roundup left no residue, there would not be the requirement 
> (law) to wait 5 years after the last application to be considered 
> organic
> Colleen
> NE Calif
> -----Original Message-----
> From: 
> []
> On Behalf Of Alberto Castillo
> Sent: Wednesday, April 03, 2013 5:31 PM
> To: Pacific Bulb Society
> Subject: Re: [pbs] Cardamine hirsuta
> Jadeboy, this is what we have been discussing in this thread. I assume 
> everybody would know but clearly not. Genetically engineered soybean 
> and other crops are being widely sown in South America, Africa, and
> This soybean, etc., has been genetically modified to become resistant 
> to Roundup; this will kill most of the existing weeds AND native 
> vegetation of all sorts but not the soybean. This way competition from 
> other vegetation is eliminated.
> Christian, it seems Roundup has a sort of hormonal effect on Cardamine 
> hirsuta boosting is germination to abnormally succesful rates. 
> Otherwise there is no evidence that an effect on Cardamine was among 
> the goals when projecting the product. As a matter of fact, 
> germination improvement of no plant was ever mentioned among the 
> product's "benefits". However there is not the slightest doubt that 
> this actually happens from postings in this same thread.
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