Colleen, You were not the list member who suggested GMO contamination as a cause for your weed problems. I was not calling your reasonable post about invasive weeds illogical or superstitious. Invasive plants are certainly a problem. We had a grass called "Johnson grass" in Alabama that is invasive, impregnable and emerges via razor sharp shoots - the kind that can pierce tarps, pool liners and even soccer balls. I also remember a succession of "invasions" during my youth in which a sea of one weed gave way to a different invasive swarm after different kinds of disturbances: fire, mowing, plowing, en especially cold winter. But the rangeland weeds you struggle with are not (yet) related to herbicides or GMOs - they are merely natural plants who've been dropped into ecosystems without their natural cohort of parasites and predators. To bring this back to bulbs: Sparaxis elegans seems to be a nascent invasive here in the Bay Area. I see it regularly in rocky natural areas from Mount San Bruno to Marin County. I'm hoping a gregarious sparaxaphile is the culprit rather than natural dispersal from garden populations. I do feel a twinge of guilt uprooting those gorgeous flowers when I see them in natural areas - but natives in the Bay Area have it too hard to let myself be seduced by the beauty of such South African belles. -|< > From: silkie@frontiernet.net > To: pbs@lists.ibiblio.org > Date: Wed, 3 Apr 2013 22:56:26 -0700 > Subject: Re: [pbs] Cardamine hirsuta > > You are correct that correlation is not causation, but in the case I gave as > an illustration, this was the only instance with this result and believe me > I had tried everything else I could think of - fire, vinegar, tilling, > flooding to allow hand weeding.... In discussion with others in this > valley, I found similar experiences. Yes, there may be something happening > we are not seeing, but it is interesting that many people seem to be having > the same result. > > When yards and ranch land are being taken over by plants that the university > specialist haven't a clue as to how to deal with, it can be darn scary. I > know herbicide resistance is not necessarily related to GMO use, but GMO use > does increase the use of herbicides. When I can't plant bulbs without them > being either smothered by Whitetop or literally skewered and choked by grass > rhizomes that are as sharp as needles, I get very frustrated. When a > person owns acreage, but has to resort to growing plants in pots, something > is wrong. I don't think my reaction is either illogical or superstitious. > > As a health professional I am very aware of the downside of herbicide use, > the health consequences of which can actually be tracked by zip code in > California. I don't want them on me or in me. As for organic, UC Davis > found years ago that there are real differences between the way bugs react > to organic and conventional plants. No I'm not a bug, but I see no reason > to think that my body is not able to tell the difference. > > Colleen > > > -----Original Message----- > From: pbs-bounces@lists.ibiblio.org [mailto:pbs-bounces@lists.ibiblio.org] > On Behalf Of Kipp McMichael > Sent: Wednesday, April 03, 2013 9:14 PM > To: Pacific Bulb Society > Subject: Re: [pbs] Cardamine hirsuta > > Greetings, > We all know the adage "correlation is not causation" - but human nature > makes it very hard to apply this concept consistently and we frequently fall > prey to exactly this logical error. The ability of an organism to "come back > with a vengeance" after disturbance is what makes a plant a problemmatic > weed in the first place. As one of the most commonly-used herbicides on the > planet, surely someone has run the 10x10 experiment Nhu suggests. If > roundup were such a potent weed stimulant, how could we not have > documentation of this effect? > Concerning Calfornia law and organic farming, the 5 year wait for organic > land is not driven by concerns about Roundup specifically but about all the > other persistent herbicides common in modern farming. Since we cannot know > for certain what herbicides, insecticides or other chemicals have been used > on a piece of land, the law includes a blanket 5-year wait (even though > Roundup alone does not persist for anywhere close to 5 years). Further, 5 > years is not actually long enough to insure farmland if free of all > previously used chemicals. But there has to be some reasonable standard that > allows people to gain organic certification (especially since nearly all the > ag land in California was conventionally farmed for decades before the rise > of organic agriculture). > It is also quite clear from this thread that "GMO" is a topic loaded with > confusion and influenced by what can only be labeled superstition: Why else > would a gardender speculate that GMO contamination was responsible for weeds > being weedy? > There are indeed serious questions raised by modern farming monoculture, > the overuse of pesticides/herbicides, and environmental impacts of GMO > crops. At the same time however, the organic farming industry also has a > monetary interest in convincing consumers to pay a premium for their > products. Because few of the the actors here can be trusted, it's important > to demand evidence concerning claims from either side. > -|<ipp > > From: silkie@frontiernet.net > > To: pbs@lists.ibiblio.org > > Date: Wed, 3 Apr 2013 18:32:26 -0700 > > Subject: Re: [pbs] Cardamine hirsuta > > > > A few years ago I caved on my position of having an all organic garden > > and used some Roundup on a grass that is rhizomatous and endemic to this > area. > > The Agricultural extension could not identify it, but it is broadly known. > > Many go to raised beds as a last resort. Anyway, the Roundup appeared > > to kill the stand of the grass in a corner of my vegetable garden, but > > the next year it came back with a vengeance as if I had spoon fed it a > tasty meal. > > > > Lepidium latifolium commonly known as Tall Whitetop or just Whitetop > > http://blm.gov/ca/st/… , > > http://unce.unr.edu/programs/sites/… > > is another plant that seems to ignore Roundup. The flowers are > > similar in appearance to Baby's Breath so vendors often come to this > > area to collect the flowers for free and then sell them as Baby's > > Breath thus spreading the seeds. It is starting to invade our > > property and I am at a loss as to how to deal with it. In the past we > > have kept it mowed hoping to stunt its growth. This year I'm > > considering using a weed burner on it. The Rancher across the road > > keeps it controlled by grazing, but it grows in the right-of-way along > > the road and the seeds blow onto our property. Grazing controls it in > > our fields, but I do prefer to have flowers, lawn and vegetables on some > of the land! > > > > Point- if Roundup left no residue, there would not be the requirement > > (law) to wait 5 years after the last application to be considered > > organic > > > > Colleen > > NE Calif > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: pbs-bounces@lists.ibiblio.org > > [mailto:pbs-bounces@lists.ibiblio.org] > > On Behalf Of Alberto Castillo > > Sent: Wednesday, April 03, 2013 5:31 PM > > To: Pacific Bulb Society > > Subject: Re: [pbs] Cardamine hirsuta > > > > Jadeboy, this is what we have been discussing in this thread. I assume > > everybody would know but clearly not. Genetically engineered soybean > > and other crops are being widely sown in South America, Africa, and > elsewhere. > > This soybean, etc., has been genetically modified to become resistant > > to Roundup; this will kill most of the existing weeds AND native > > vegetation of all sorts but not the soybean. This way competition from > > other vegetation is eliminated. > > > > Christian, it seems Roundup has a sort of hormonal effect on Cardamine > > hirsuta boosting is germination to abnormally succesful rates. > > Otherwise there is no evidence that an effect on Cardamine was among > > the goals when projecting the product. As a matter of fact, > > germination improvement of no plant was ever mentioned among the > > product's "benefits". However there is not the slightest doubt that > > this actually happens from postings in this same thread. > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > pbs mailing list > > pbs@lists.ibiblio.org > > http://pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php > > http://pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki/ > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > pbs mailing list > > pbs@lists.ibiblio.org > > http://pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php > > http://pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki/ > > _______________________________________________ > pbs mailing list > pbs@lists.ibiblio.org > http://pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php > http://pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki/ > > > _______________________________________________ > pbs mailing list > pbs@lists.ibiblio.org > http://pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php > http://pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki/