From rarebulbs@suddenlink.net Sun, 01 Mar 2015 09:17:02 -0800 Message-Id: <54F342D0.6060302@suddenlink.net> From: Diana Chapman Subject: Telos Rare Bulbs Date: Sun, 01 Mar 2015 08:48:16 -0800 The web site for 2015 is now on line. There may be more minor changes when bulbs are harvested. Diana Telos Rare Bulbs www.telosrarebulbs.com From enoster@hotmail.com Sun, 01 Mar 2015 12:17:03 -0800 Message-Id: From: Travis O Subject: A few Crocus/bee interactions on youtube Date: Sun, 1 Mar 2015 11:55:34 -0800 Hi, I made a few short high def recordings of bees visiting my Crocus flowers. YouTube automatically plays the low quality, but you can select the high def version to see more detail (bottom right on player, I think). Here they are: http://youtu.be/tlQMHOzcX9Y http://youtu.be/l4_g0SI5ML8 http://youtu.be/tmv7lutLq2s And some new accompanying pictures on my blog: http://amateuranthecologist.blogspot.com/ -Travis Owen Rogue River, OR From cynthiasbulbs@hotmail.com Sun, 01 Mar 2015 13:17:03 -0800 Message-Id: From: Cynthia Mueller Subject: A few Crocus/bee interactions on youtube Date: Sun, 1 Mar 2015 14:10:03 -0600 Travis, your material and write-ups are really interesting! -Cynthia Mueller Cynthia W Mueller > On Mar 1, 2015, at 1:56 PM, Travis O wrote: > > Hi, > > I made a few short high def recordings of bees visiting my Crocus flowers. YouTube automatically plays the low quality, but you can select the high def version to see more detail (bottom right on player, I think). > > Here they are: > http://youtu.be/tlQMHOzcX9Y > http://youtu.be/l4_g0SI5ML8 > http://youtu.be/tmv7lutLq2s > > And some new accompanying pictures on my blog: > http://amateuranthecologist.blogspot.com/ > > -Travis Owen > Rogue River, OR > _______________________________________________ > pbs mailing list > pbs@lists.ibiblio.org > http://pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php > http://pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki From fierycloud2002@yahoo.com.tw Sun, 01 Mar 2015 20:17:03 -0800 Message-Id: <1425266331.52081.YahooMailBasic@web75306.mail.tw1.yahoo.com> From: Fierycloud Subject: A German capital company in Sichuan, China Date: Mon, 2 Mar 2015 11:18:51 +0800 Hello: Though the regulation ask all company should be registered for export for plants and seed after 2007.12.01. But after 2012.08. , the lists is maintained by each branch of AQSIQ in each province. And I can't find the updated list of south-west provinces for a while, but Sichuan now. It integrated all the export companies which products derived from plant in a list. And most seed company seem only offer the food crop. List of enterprise registered for exportation of plant-derived agricultural product in Sichuan (updated to August 2014)(In Chinese ) http://www.scciq.gov.cn/djcqymd/16632.htm (In Chinese) http://www.scciq.gov.cn/u/cms/www/201409/29102052u47z.xls (In Chinese) There is a interesting company. And according to the name in chinese, it should the site which located in the capital city Chengdu, Sichuan. The page below stated that "a German capital company in Sichuan, China" http://hengduanbiotech.com/showinfomation.asp?showid=31 (Though there are Orchids, Arisaema, Cardiocrinum, lilium, Nomocharis and etc listed on the cataloge, but no details) Su-hong-Ciao Taiwan From adalwolf34@hotmail.com Mon, 02 Mar 2015 02:17:04 -0800 Message-Id: From: Alf Valjebeck Subject: A German capital company in Sichuan, China Date: Mon, 2 Mar 2015 10:16:36 +0100 OK by me! Fierycloud skrev den 2015-03-02 04:18: > Hello: > > Though the regulation ask all company should be registered for export for plants and seed after 2007.12.01. But after 2012.08. , the lists is maintained by each branch of AQSIQ in each province. And I can't find the updated list of south-west provinces for a while, but Sichuan now. It integrated all the export companies which products derived from plant in a list. And most seed company seem only offer the food crop. > > List of enterprise registered for exportation of plant-derived agricultural product in Sichuan (updated to August 2014)(In Chinese ) > http://www.scciq.gov.cn/djcqymd/16632.htm (In Chinese) > http://www.scciq.gov.cn/u/cms/www/201409/29102052u47z.xls (In Chinese) > > There is a interesting company. And according to the name in chinese, it should the site which located in the capital city Chengdu, Sichuan. > The page below stated that "a German capital company in Sichuan, China" > http://hengduanbiotech.com/showinfomation.asp?showid=31 > (Though there are Orchids, Arisaema, Cardiocrinum, lilium, Nomocharis and etc listed on the cataloge, but no details) > > Su-hong-Ciao > Taiwan > _______________________________________________ > pbs mailing list > pbs@lists.ibiblio.org > http://pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php > http://pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki --- Detta e-postmeddelande har sökts igenom efter virus med antivirusprogram från Avast. http://www.avast.com From k.preteroti@verizon.net Mon, 02 Mar 2015 07:17:04 -0800 Message-Id: <3D27B8FD-C003-4659-8C31-CA3E7034E303@verizon.net> From: Kenneth Preteroti Subject: A few Crocus/bee interactions on youtube Date: Mon, 2 Mar 2015 09:31:52 -0500 Thanks for the wonderful videos. Ken P Old Bridge, NJ Zone 6 b From janemcgary@earthlink.net Mon, 02 Mar 2015 14:17:04 -0800 Message-Id: From: Jane McGary Subject: Fwd: PBS website contact:Amaryllis cross with clivia Date: Mon, 02 Mar 2015 14:07:09 -0800 The following question came via the PBS website. This cross (whether it involves actual Amaryllis or Hippeastrum) seems very unlikely to me, but I told the questioner that I would post it here. Is this just another eBay scam? Jane McGary >Date: Sun, 1 Mar 2015 18:33:59 -0800 >Subject: PBS website contact:Amaryllis cross with clivia >Reply-To: Kurt Nehrbass > >This is a message from the PBS website for janemcgary. > >Can Amaryllis\'s be crossed with Clivia\'s? I noticed on Ebay seeds >being offered >for hybrid crosses. Can this be true? > >I would like to know. I\'ve grown Amaryllis\'s for years and this if >the first I\'ve heard of this. > >-- >Pacific Bulb Society web site >email: website@pacificbulbsociety.org From teck11@embarqmail.com Mon, 02 Mar 2015 15:17:02 -0800 Message-Id: <00b101d05539$85fb4c40$91f1e4c0$@embarqmail.com> From: "Tim Eck" Subject: Fwd: PBS website contact:Amaryllis cross with clivia Date: Mon, 2 Mar 2015 17:37:53 -0500 My understanding is that clivia will often make a single apomictic seed per flower when pollinated by hippeastrum. If the seed formed on hippeastrum, I would be much more interested. Tim -----Original Message----- From: pbs [mailto:pbs-bounces@lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf Of Jane McGary Sent: Monday, March 02, 2015 5:07 PM To: Pacific Bulb Society Subject: [pbs] Fwd: PBS website contact:Amaryllis cross with clivia The following question came via the PBS website. This cross (whether it involves actual Amaryllis or Hippeastrum) seems very unlikely to me, but I told the questioner that I would post it here. Is this just another eBay scam? From enoster@hotmail.com Tue, 03 Mar 2015 06:17:02 -0800 Message-Id: From: Travis O Subject: Seeds of Scilla Date: Tue, 3 Mar 2015 05:18:55 -0800 Hi, When is the best time to collect seeds of Scilla siberica, Scilla mischtschenkoana, or Scilla biflora? Do I wait for the pods to dry or can I collect them green, and will the seeds still mature? I've seen in Ian Young's Bulb Log how some seeds can be collected before fully ripe. Then, should I wait until Autumn to sow them? Thanks! -Travis Owen Rogue River, OR http://amateuranthecologist.blogspot.com/ From annamwal@interia.pl Tue, 03 Mar 2015 07:17:04 -0800 Message-Id: From: Subject: Fwd: PBS website contact:Amaryllis cross with clivia Date: Tue, 3 Mar 2015 15:41:07 +0100 Hi, To links on the question: https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/clivia-enthusiast/conversations/topics/6980 https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/clivia-enthusiast/conversations/topics/6992 Marek W. -----Oryginalna wiadomość----- From: Tim Eck My understanding is that clivia will often make a single apomictic seed per flower when pollinated by hippeastrum. ... --- Ta wiadomość została sprawdzona na obecność wirusów przez oprogramowanie antywirusowe Avast. http://www.avast.com _______________________________________________ pbs mailing list pbs@lists.ibiblio.org http://pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php http://pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki From rarebulbs@suddenlink.net Tue, 03 Mar 2015 07:17:04 -0800 Message-Id: <54F5CB79.5020203@suddenlink.net> From: Diana Chapman Subject: Telos Date: Tue, 03 Mar 2015 06:55:53 -0800 Dear All: I have injured my hand, so everything, including typing, is slow and difficult. I am getting swamped with e-mails since I updated the web site, so I ask for your patience. I expect to have the dressing off in about two weeks, so expect a delay in responses and shipping. Diana Telos From petersirises@gmail.com Tue, 03 Mar 2015 13:17:04 -0800 Message-Id: From: Peter Taggart Subject: Seeds of Scilla Date: Tue, 3 Mar 2015 20:23:30 +0000 The seed capsuals open soon after the green fades and they become red/ brown or straw coloured. If picked before they open, I suggest allowing them to dry and open naturally, so that the seeds may finish ripening. They self seed so easily that I would sow as soon as practical. Peter (UK) On 3 March 2015 at 13:18, Travis O wrote: > Hi, > > When is the best time to collect seeds of Scilla siberica, Scilla > mischtschenkoana, or Scilla biflora? Do I wait for the pods to dry or can I > collect them green, and will the seeds still mature? > > I've seen in Ian Young's Bulb Log how some seeds can be collected before > fully ripe. > > Then, should I wait until Autumn to sow them? > > From wpoulsen@pacbell.net Tue, 03 Mar 2015 17:17:03 -0800 Message-Id: <35CD2FD3-7CD9-43B7-9E57-22C01996CE21@pacbell.net> From: Lee Poulsen Subject: UK government slammed for Kew Gardens budget crunch : Nature News & Comment Date: Tue, 3 Mar 2015 16:34:28 -0800 Just saw this news item. In addition to the severe cuts to Kew's budget, one sentence in the article is troubling to me: Botanists around the world warned "that cuts could damage ... [Kew's] policy work to help prevent the trading of endangered species." Does that include the kind of trading we all like to do? I grow a few endangered species that I really like a lot. And yet I am totally against decimating wild populations of such species. Am I at odds with Kew over wanting to try growing such species? --Lee Poulsen Pasadena, California, USA - USDA Zone 10a Latitude 34°N, Altitude 1150 ft/350 m http://www.nature.com/news/uk-government-slammed-for-kew-gardens-budget-crunch-1.17045 NATURE | BREAKING NEWS UK government slammed for Kew Gardens budget crunch Oli Scarff/Getty A 2014 budget shortfall forced the Royal Botanic Gardens at Kew to lay off roughly one-fifth of its staff. Richard Van Noorden 04 March 2015 A British parliamentary committee has castigated the UK government for failing to securely fund a world-leading plant science centre in London, leading to a budget crisis and job losses that are undermining its scientific work. “We consider the current financial arrangements for funding to be a recipe for failure,” concludes the report, published on 4 March. It lays much of the blame for the trouble at the Royal Botanic Gardens at Kew on the UK's Department for Food and Rural Affairs (Defra). Last year, the centre laid off 47 full-time scientists — around a fifth of its research staff — after suffering a £5 million budget shortfall. Botanists around the world raised alarm at an inquiry held in December by the UK House of Commons science and technology committee, warning that the cuts could damage the centre’s work in plant and fungal taxonomy, its ability to maintain a seed bank to protect against biodiversity loss, and its policy work to help prevent the trading of endangered species. “The government must work out a stable way of funding the Gardens that provides greater long-term certainty for Kew’s important work,” says Andrew Miller, the chair of the committee. The centre should also be given more freedom over its budget, the report recommends; Kew currently must receive approval from Defra each year for many of its purchases. Defra could not be immediately reached for comment. "Kew needs long-term investment backed by Government. This will ensure that we are able to adequately care for our collections, which are not only a priceless national asset but also an extraordinary global resource," a spokeperson for the centre said in response to the report. A team brought in to restructure science at the centre declares that its research remains strong. In February, Kew announced a new science strategy, including launching an annual ‘State of the World’s Plants’ report and digitizing many of the centre’s 7 million plant specimens. Director of science Kathy Willis says that despite the job losses, she finds it hard to name things that Kew has actually had to cut back on — beyond being more selective in specimen collection, and cutting conservation biology programmes, such as planting trees to restore ecosystems. But the physical state of the Royal Botanic Gardens — which includes buildings that form part of a UNESCO World Heritage Site — is deteriorating. The gardens grow over 19,000 species, including giant water lilies, towering pine trees, and rare orchids, many in huge iron-framed greenhouses that need metalwork restoration and thousands of panes of glass replaced. “I don’t yet have a plan to ensure how these buildings can be maintained for future generations,” says Richard Deverell, the director of the gardens. The centre, with an income of around £60 million per year, is trying to wean itself off government cash. Defra funding for Kew has declined from £28.6 million in 2009-2010 to a projected £20.4 million in 2015-2016 (even including an emergency boost of £2.3 million announced in December, just before the committee inquiry). Meanwhile, income generated from charging visitors, charitable donations, outside consultancy work and project grants is growing. “We have to focus on alternative fund-raising,” says Willis, noting that scientists at the centre secured five new research grants in the last month alone. Morale among staff is recovering, says Deverell — even though many of the centre’s workforce had to reapply for jobs in the restructure. Critical feedback from a staff survey last November marked the nadir, but wasn’t as bad as he feared, he says: “You can’t take out 47 full-time scientists without leaving some bruises.” Nature doi:10.1038/nature.2015.17045 From enoster@hotmail.com Wed, 04 Mar 2015 06:17:03 -0800 Message-Id: From: Travis O Subject: Mystery Chlorogalum Date: Wed, 4 Mar 2015 05:59:39 -0800 I have recently been attempting to identify a local species of Chlorogalum with little luck. It seems the taxonomy is a bit confused. I am sure it is either Chlorogalum pomeridianum or C. angustifolium based on the descriptions. Different sources say that C. pomeridianum has several varieties while the Oregon Flora (not out yet) says there are three subspecies, of which Chlorogalum pomeridianum ssp. austrooreganum Callahan (Southern Oregon amole) seems most reasonably similar. I've put a few pictures and a brief description on the Mystery Bulbs page:http://pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki/index.php/MysteryBulbs Thanks! -Travis OwenRogue River, OR http://amateuranthecologist.blogspot.com/ From rarebulbs@suddenlink.net Wed, 04 Mar 2015 08:17:03 -0800 Message-Id: <54F72C4C.1050306@suddenlink.net> From: Diana Chapman Subject: Mystery Chlorogalum Date: Wed, 04 Mar 2015 08:01:16 -0800 It's not C. angustifolium. Diana Telos > I have recently been attempting to identify a local species of Chlorogalum with little luck. It seems the taxonomy is a bit confused. I am sure it is either Chlorogalum pomeridianum or C. angustifolium based on the descriptions. Different sources say that C. pomeridianum has several varieties while the Oregon Flora (not out yet) says there are three subspecies, of which Chlorogalum pomeridianum ssp. austrooreganum Callahan (Southern Oregon amole) seems most reasonably similar. > I've put a few pictures and a brief description on the Mystery Bulbs page:http://pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki/index.php/MysteryBulbs > > Thanks! > > -Travis OwenRogue River, OR > http://amateuranthecologist.blogspot.com/ > _______________________________________________ > pbs mailing list > pbs@lists.ibiblio.org > http://pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php > http://pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki > From tylus.seklos@gmail.com Wed, 04 Mar 2015 08:17:03 -0800 Message-Id: From: Jude Haverington Subject: Curly / corkscrew leaf Crinum? Date: Wed, 4 Mar 2015 11:04:22 -0500 In the span of one week, I have had two requests for a Crinum with contorted / curly leaves. I've never heard of this before - and nobody has ever asked up until this point. What gives? Is there one? The fact that two separate customers asked in the same week suggests that there may have been some discussion somewhere, lately. Best, Jude -- The Silent Seed Rare and Unusual plants from around the world. thesilentseed.com From ralph.carpenter1@googlemail.com Wed, 04 Mar 2015 10:17:03 -0800 Message-Id: From: John Ralph Carpenter Subject: Curly / corkscrew leaf Crinum? Date: Wed, 4 Mar 2015 17:35:35 +0000 Criinum calamistratum? On Wednesday, 4 March 2015, Jude Haverington wrote: > In the span of one week, I have had two requests for a Crinum with > contorted / curly leaves. I've never heard of this before - and nobody has > ever asked up until this point. What gives? Is there one? The fact that two > separate customers asked in the same week suggests that there may have been > some discussion somewhere, lately. > Best, Jude > > > -- > The Silent Seed > Rare and Unusual plants from around the world. > thesilentseed.com > _______________________________________________ > pbs mailing list > pbs@lists.ibiblio.org > http://pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php > http://pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki > -- Ralph Carpenter 2 & 3 Stone Cottages Chilmington Green Great Chart Ashford Kent TN23 3DW 01233 637567 From tylus.seklos@gmail.com Wed, 04 Mar 2015 10:17:03 -0800 Message-Id: From: Jude Haverington Subject: Curly / corkscrew leaf Crinum? Date: Wed, 4 Mar 2015 12:47:29 -0500 Great suggestion! But the one in question is supposedly a fleshy leafed typical Crinum; not an aquatic one. One of the people sent me a picture - but it resembled a regular Crinum asiaticum (or basically any other Crinum) with deformed / unhealthy leaves. On Wed, Mar 4, 2015 at 12:35 PM, John Ralph Carpenter < ralph.carpenter1@googlemail.com> wrote: > Criinum calamistratum? > > On Wednesday, 4 March 2015, Jude Haverington > wrote: > > In the span of one week, I have had two requests for a Crinum with > > contorted / curly leaves. I've never heard of this before - and nobody > has > > ever asked up until this point. What gives? Is there one? The fact that > two > > separate customers asked in the same week suggests that there may have > been > > some discussion somewhere, lately. > > Best, Jude > > > > > > -- > > The Silent Seed > > Rare and Unusual plants from around the world. > > thesilentseed.com > > _______________________________________________ > > pbs mailing list > > pbs@lists.ibiblio.org > > http://pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php > > http://pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki > > > > -- > Ralph Carpenter > 2 & 3 Stone Cottages > Chilmington Green > Great Chart > Ashford > Kent TN23 3DW > > 01233 637567 > _______________________________________________ > pbs mailing list > pbs@lists.ibiblio.org > http://pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php > http://pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki > -- The Silent Seed Rare and Unusual plants from around the world. thesilentseed.com From janemcgary@earthlink.net Wed, 04 Mar 2015 18:17:03 -0800 Message-Id: From: Jane McGary Subject: Fwd: PBS website contact:Lilium × marhan \'Mrs. R. O. Backhouse\' Date: Wed, 04 Mar 2015 10:19:24 -0800 The following inquiry came via the PBS website. If you can help Alexandra find Lilium x marhan 'Mrs. R. O. Backhouse', please write to her directly at the address below. Jane McGary Membership >Date: Wed, 4 Mar 2015 06:23:02 -0800 > >Subject: PBS website contact:Lilium × marhan >\'Mrs. R. O. Backhouse\' (Lilium martagon × Lilium hansonii). >Reply-To: Alexandra Radbil >From: Apache > >This is a message from the PBS website for janemcgary. > >Hi, I\'m looking for a source for a particular >lily (Lilium × marhan \'Mrs. R. O. Backhouse\' >(Lilium martagon × Lilium hansonii). I realize >that the PBS is not a seller of bulbs, but that >members do exchange bulbs and provide bulbs to >other members. If it is likely that this lily is >available through your organization, I would be >happy to become a member. I am not lily >enthusiast as such, but have a fondness for one >or two varieties and would be happy to learn >more. I\'m not in a position to provide bulbs to others. Thank you -- Alexandra > >-- >Pacific Bulb Society web site >email: website@pacificbulbsociety.org From michaelcmace@gmail.com Wed, 04 Mar 2015 11:17:04 -0800 Message-Id: <071f01d056ab$e3231d30$a9695790$@gmail.com> From: "Michael Mace" Subject: Amaryllis cross with Clivia Date: Wed, 4 Mar 2015 10:49:02 -0800 > This cross (whether it involves actual Amaryllis or Hippeastrum) seems very unlikely to me, but I told the questioner that I would post it here. >Is this just another eBay scam? Somebody claimed to have such a cross here, but they didn't post a picture: http://forums.gardenweb.com/discussions/1758689/clivia-amaryllis-hybrid And here, from 1902: http://bulbnrose.x10.mx/Amaryllis/Westonbirt1902.html Mike San Jose, CA From hartsentwine.australia@gmail.com Wed, 04 Mar 2015 12:17:03 -0800 Message-Id: From: Steven Hart Subject: Curly / corkscrew leaf Crinum? Date: Thu, 5 Mar 2015 05:54:21 +1000 Hi Jude, looks like ive been replying to your old email, in case u wondered why u hadn't heard from me about those other crinums you were asking about last year... I replied a few times but didn't hear back.. I don't know of any with true curly leaves other than the aquatic ones, & I imagine you mean curly like spirals, but perhaps they meant wavy leaves.. There was some offered with a very wavy leaf on eBay recently. It was marked as unknown spp from Africa On 5 March 2015 at 02:04, Jude Haverington wrote: > In the span of one week, I have had two requests for a Crinum with > contorted / curly leaves. > > > -- > The Silent Seed > Rare and Unusual plants from around the world. > thesilentseed.com > _______________________________________________ > pbs mailing list > pbs@lists.ibiblio.org > http://pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php > http://pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki > -- Steven : ) Esk Queensland Australia Summer Zone 5 Winter Zone 10 From tylus.seklos@gmail.com Wed, 04 Mar 2015 12:17:03 -0800 Message-Id: From: Jude Haverington Subject: Curly / corkscrew leaf Crinum? Date: Wed, 4 Mar 2015 14:57:53 -0500 Hi Steven, Yup - I've wondered why I didn't hear back - now I know! Please send me one directly, privately, and we can pick up where we left off, if you don't mind. Sorry - I didn't mean spiraled leaves, (Like Albuca spiralis) - but rather, exaggerated wavy leaves - The one on Ebay must have been why I'm getting these requests all of a sudden. When you write me privately, do you mind sending me a link to the completed auction? I'm curious to see what it looked like. Best, Jude On Wed, Mar 4, 2015 at 2:54 PM, Steven Hart < hartsentwine.australia@gmail.com> wrote: > Hi Jude, looks like ive been replying to your old email, in case u > wondered why u hadn't heard from me about those other crinums you were > asking about last year... I replied a few times but didn't hear back.. > > I don't know of any with true curly leaves other than the aquatic ones, & I > imagine you mean curly like spirals, but perhaps they meant wavy leaves.. > There was some offered with a very wavy leaf on eBay recently. It was > marked as unknown spp from Africa > > On 5 March 2015 at 02:04, Jude Haverington wrote: > > > In the span of one week, I have had two requests for a Crinum with > > contorted / curly leaves. > > > > > > -- > > The Silent Seed > > Rare and Unusual plants from around the world. > > thesilentseed.com > > _______________________________________________ > > pbs mailing list > > pbs@lists.ibiblio.org > > http://pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php > > http://pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki > > > > > > -- > Steven : ) > Esk Queensland Australia > Summer Zone 5 Winter Zone 10 > _______________________________________________ > pbs mailing list > pbs@lists.ibiblio.org > http://pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php > http://pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki > -- The Silent Seed Rare and Unusual plants from around the world. thesilentseed.com From plantsman@comcast.net Wed, 04 Mar 2015 13:17:03 -0800 Message-Id: <20150304202459.976F5249C9@lists.ibiblio.org> From: Nathan Lange Subject: Amaryllis cross with Clivia Date: Wed, 04 Mar 2015 12:25:06 -0800 Most species of Amaryllis, Clivia, and Hippeastrum have a chromosome number of 2n = 22, suggesting that a hybrid between any two of these genera is theoretically possible. I suppose that is part of the ongoing allure to attempt these intergeneric crosses. Of course, there are many potential obstacles to creating such a hybrid and success seems extremely unlikely without embryo rescue. There is frequent mention of a Clivia x Hippeastrum hybrid created by the late Gordon McNeil in South Africa called 'Green Girl' but there is no evidence that I can find substantiating the claim that it is a true intergeneric cross. The picture of 'Green Girl' looks like just another nice Clivia selection: http://www.cliviaregister.com/clivia-register.php?page=17 'Green Girl' appears to be the only purported intergeneric hybrid described on the Clivia Register list. Nathan From ds429@frontier.com Wed, 04 Mar 2015 14:17:03 -0800 Message-Id: <1425506634.90861.YahooMailBasic@web163105.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> From: ds429 Subject: was Amaryllis cross with Clivia Date: Wed, 4 Mar 2015 14:03:54 -0800 Has anyone heard any news about progress in crossing Clivia with Cryptostephanus? Dell -------------------------------------------- On Wed, 3/4/15, Nathan Lange wrote: Subject: Re: [pbs] Amaryllis cross with Clivia To: "Pacific Bulb Society" Date: Wednesday, March 4, 2015, 3:25 PM Most species of Amaryllis, Clivia, and Hippeastrum have a chromosome number of 2n = 22, suggesting that a hybrid between any two of these genera is theoretically possible. I suppose that is part of the ongoing allure to attempt these intergeneric crosses. Of course, there are many potential obstacles to creating such a hybrid and success seems extremely unlikely without embryo rescue. There is frequent mention of a Clivia x Hippeastrum hybrid created by the late Gordon McNeil in South Africa called 'Green Girl' but there is no evidence that I can find substantiating the claim that it is a true intergeneric cross. The picture of 'Green Girl' looks like just another nice Clivia selection: http://www.cliviaregister.com/clivia-register.php?page=17 'Green Girl' appears to be the only purported intergeneric hybrid described on the Clivia Register list. Nathan _______________________________________________ pbs mailing list pbs@lists.ibiblio.org http://pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php http://pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki From pbs@lists.ibiblio.org Wed, 04 Mar 2015 16:17:05 -0800 Message-Id: <14be747532b-4593-7972@webprd-a03.mail.aol.com> From: Ernie DeMarie via pbs Subject: Amaryllis cross with Clivia Date: Wed, 4 Mar 2015 19:13:06 -0500 As for crossing clivia with other genera, when I did a search on the net to see what at least one source says fits in the clade with clivia, it turns out that it is more related to Gethyllis than to Hippeastrum or Crinum. I am not sure what to make of it in terms of accuracy but I am cutting and pasting the info below. It would seem intergeneric crosses should be tried with the related genera, and surely embryo rescue would need to be done if any fertile embryos did result. Gethyllideae Dumort., Anal. Fam. Plant.: 58. 1829 6/c 80. Clivia (5; South Africa, Swaziland), Cryptostephanus (5; tropical Africa), Scadoxus (9; tropical and southern Africa), Haemanthus (22; southern Africa, with their highest diversity in Namaqualand and Western Cape), Apodolirion (6; South Africa, Swaziland), Gethyllis (32; Namibia, Northern, Western and Eastern Cape, Free State, North-West). – Tropical and southern Africa (with their largest diversity in South Africa). Sometimes with rhizome. Rhizoderm one-layered. Velamen absent. Peduncle without sclerenchyma cylinder. Subepidermal collenchyma present. Inflorescence bracts usually connate. Gethyllis has up to 18 stamens. Fruit a berry. Seeds angular. Phytomelan usually absent. n = 6, 8, 9, 11, 12, 14. Alkaloids absent in Gethyllis. Ernie DeMarie In still snow covered NY where some is melting today but more is on its way tomorrow. School was closed again (a 2 hour delay would have been sufficient I think but they said some roads were still icy) and I am pretty sure tomorrow will also be a snow day. All I can do is sow seeds and dream of summer. _______________________________________________ pbs mailing list pbs@lists.ibiblio.org http://pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php http://pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki From ralph.carpenter1@googlemail.com Thu, 05 Mar 2015 05:17:05 -0800 Message-Id: From: J R Carpenter Subject: Hyline grandiflora Date: Thu, 05 Mar 2015 12:28:57 +0000 Himalayan Gardens here in the UK are selling this, but it isn't in the Wiki or any other list I can find. Is it a synonym? From crinum@libero.it Thu, 05 Mar 2015 05:17:05 -0800 Message-Id: <477948649.1051701425560441110.JavaMail.httpd@webmail-35.iol.local> From: Alberto Grossi Subject: R: Hyline grandiflora Date: Thu, 5 Mar 2015 14:00:41 +0100 (CET) The picture they show is not of a member of Hyline (now Griffinia) but the plant is indeed a Hymenocallis, maybe fragrans. Alberto >----Messaggio originale---- >Da: ralph.carpenter1@googlemail.com >Data: 05/03/2015 13.28 >A: >Ogg: [pbs] Hyline grandiflora > >Himalayan Gardens here in the UK are selling this, but it isn't in the Wiki or any other list I can find. Is it a synonym? >_______________________________________________ >pbs mailing list >pbs@lists.ibiblio.org >http://pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php >http://pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki > From lauraajh@gmail.com Thu, 05 Mar 2015 17:17:04 -0800 Message-Id: <2CDB18F0-2E1A-4655-AD03-3CC51D4EBB5A@gmail.com> From: Laura Hawthorn Subject: sourcing unusual galanthus Date: Thu, 5 Mar 2015 19:52:19 -0500 Hi, This is my first post. I'm a keen gardener, located in Toronto. My garden is small and packed with trees, shrubs, perennials and of course, bulbs. Due to the trees and shrubs, I have less sun and more shade every year, pruning notwithstanding, so my garden is in a state of constant, gentle change. Well sometimes, not so gentle. Right now I'm searching everywhere for Canadian sources of galanthus other than g.elwesii and g.nivalis, wonderful as they are. Importing seems impossible, the barriers are so high. So if anyone has any advice or suggestions, I would appreciate them very much. Thank you. Laura Hawthorn From voltaire@islandnet.com Thu, 05 Mar 2015 17:17:04 -0800 Message-Id: <33385876-A28D-4775-A8D5-0348C65C3A6B@islandnet.com> From: Don/Diane Subject: sourcing unusual galanthus Date: Thu, 5 Mar 2015 17:05:18 -0800 Friends and I have searched abandoned farms, churchyards and old gardens where snowdrops have been seeding themselves for a century or more. Sometimes we can get permission to dig up something unusual, but if not, we collect pollen or seeds. We have hundreds of seedlings that we hope will be interesting. A wholesale nursery here brings in bulbs from Holland and pots them up, four bulbs per pot. They are sold in flower at garden centres and supermarkets, but we go first to the wholesaler's hoophouse where we examine a few thousand pots and buy any that are unusual. Diane Whitehead Victoria, British Columbia, Canada On 2015-03-05, at 4:52 PM, Laura Hawthorn wrote: > I'm searching everywhere for Canadian sources of galanthus other than g.elwesii and g.nivalis From penstemon@Q.com Fri, 06 Mar 2015 09:17:03 -0800 Message-Id: From: "penstemon" Subject: sourcing unusual galanthus Date: Fri, 6 Mar 2015 09:27:42 -0700 Right now I'm searching everywhere for Canadian sources of galanthus other than g.elwesii and g.nivalis, wonderful as they are. Importing seems impossible, the barriers are so high. So if anyone has any advice or suggestions, I would appreciate them very much. (This isn’t a direct answer to your question.) Would-be galanthophiles here in the U.S. feel your pain. I looked at the information from Environment Canada for importing snowdrops and it seems similar to what is required in the U.S. It looks like you need a CITES import permit as well as an export permit from the country of origin. (Someone can correct me on this if I’m wrong.) The cost of a CITES export permit from the UK is £74, plus an additional £2 per bulb. (Then there’s the cost of the snowdrops themselves.) The cost of an import permit in the US is $100. And apparently, even when you pay for the permits, there is no guarantee that the permits will be granted. There are a couple of mail-order nurseries that do export snowdrops. One mentions the U.S. in particular, but says nothing about Canada. So, technically, the barriers aren’t really high, if you have enough money to spend on permits and snowdrops, and a willingness to fill out a form that makes filing tax returns look like nothing. Bob Nold Denver, Colorado, USA _______________________________________________ pbs mailing list pbs@lists.ibiblio.org http://pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php http://pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki From lauraajh@gmail.com Fri, 06 Mar 2015 10:17:03 -0800 Message-Id: <72E92B2D-D55A-4E48-8156-A038696B48E3@gmail.com> From: Laura Hawthorn Subject: sourcing unusual galanthus Date: Fri, 6 Mar 2015 12:20:37 -0500 Your seedlings sound interesting, good luck. On 2015-03-05, at 8:05 PM, Don/Diane wrote: > Friends and I have searched abandoned farms, churchyards and old gardens where snowdrops have been seeding themselves for a century or more. Sometimes we can get permission to dig up something unusual, but if not, we collect pollen or seeds. We have hundreds of seedlings that we hope will be interesting. > > A wholesale nursery here brings in bulbs from Holland and pots them up, four bulbs per pot. They are sold in flower at garden centres and supermarkets, but we go first to the wholesaler's hoophouse where we examine a few thousand pots and buy any that are unusual. > > Diane Whitehead > Victoria, British Columbia, Canada > > > On 2015-03-05, at 4:52 PM, Laura Hawthorn wrote: > >> I'm searching everywhere for Canadian sources of galanthus other than g.elwesii and g.nivalis > _______________________________________________ > pbs mailing list > pbs@lists.ibiblio.org > http://pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php > http://pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki From lauraajh@gmail.com Fri, 06 Mar 2015 10:17:03 -0800 Message-Id: <9C46A721-F745-4421-A71B-598CF619833A@gmail.com> From: Laura Hawthorn Subject: sourcing unusual galanthus Date: Fri, 6 Mar 2015 12:25:14 -0500 I replied via email but not sure if that worked so Your seedlings sound very interesting, good luck! From lauraajh@gmail.com Fri, 06 Mar 2015 10:17:03 -0800 Message-Id: From: Laura Hawthorn Subject: sourcing unusual galanthus Date: Fri, 6 Mar 2015 12:26:57 -0500 Thanks for the detailed info. Would you mind sharing the names of the nurseries that are willing to export? And I'm sure you already know that Carolyn's Shade Gardens has a lovely collection and I believe does mail order, within the U.S only. From penstemon@Q.com Fri, 06 Mar 2015 11:17:03 -0800 Message-Id: From: "penstemon" Subject: sourcing unusual galanthus Date: Fri, 6 Mar 2015 11:41:53 -0700 Thanks for the detailed info. Would you mind sharing the names of the nurseries that are willing to export? And I'm sure you already know that Carolyn's Shade Gardens has a lovely collection and I believe does mail order, within the U.S only. Oh, sorry, I should have added that. http://www.cornoviumsnowdrops.co.uk/ and http://rareplants.co.uk I’ve never ordered from Cornovium. Carolyn’s, and the Temple Nursery sell snowdrops in the US, and Odyssey Bulbs and Far Reaches Farm offer some, too. And I should add that I have never ordered snowdrops from overseas, either. Because, possibly obviously, I would have had enough money to buy my own country first, and then importing snowdrops would not have been a problem. (I also realize that this process of purchasing snowdrops from nurseries concerns international regulation of bulbs which cannot possibly be endangered in any sense of the word, but that’s another story altogether.) Bob Nold Denver, Colorado, USA _______________________________________________ pbs mailing list pbs@lists.ibiblio.org http://pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php http://pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki From lauraajh@gmail.com Fri, 06 Mar 2015 11:17:03 -0800 Message-Id: From: Laura Hawthorn Subject: sourcing unusual galanthus Date: Fri, 6 Mar 2015 14:02:15 -0500 Seems like my reply shows up in the thread if I respond via email rather than use the Reply button so that's what I'm doing. Thanks for the nursery info, not sure what practical good it will do me but at least I'll be able to look at lots more pictures of snowdrops...sigh. Not sure what governments think they're accomplishing with some of the regs, so very frustrating for gardeners. On 2015-03-06, at 1:41 PM, penstemon wrote: > > Thanks for the detailed info. Would you mind sharing the names of the nurseries that are willing to export? And I'm sure you already know that Carolyn's Shade Gardens has a lovely collection and I believe does mail order, within the U.S only. > > Oh, sorry, I should have added that. http://www.cornoviumsnowdrops.co.uk/ and http://rareplants.co.uk > I’ve never ordered from Cornovium. > Carolyn’s, and the Temple Nursery sell snowdrops in the US, and Odyssey Bulbs and Far Reaches Farm offer some, too. > And I should add that I have never ordered snowdrops from overseas, either. Because, possibly obviously, I would have had enough money to buy my own country first, and then importing snowdrops would not have been a problem. > (I also realize that this process of purchasing snowdrops from nurseries concerns international regulation of bulbs which cannot possibly be endangered in any sense of the word, but that’s another story altogether.) > Bob Nold > Denver, Colorado, USA > _______________________________________________ > pbs mailing list > pbs@lists.ibiblio.org > http://pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php > http://pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki From penstemon@Q.com Fri, 06 Mar 2015 12:17:04 -0800 Message-Id: From: "penstemon" Subject: sourcing unusual galanthus Date: Fri, 6 Mar 2015 12:28:58 -0700 Seems like my reply shows up in the thread if I respond via email rather than use the Reply button so that's what I'm doing. Thanks for the nursery info, not sure what practical good it will do me but at least I'll be able to look at lots more pictures of snowdrops...sigh. Not sure what governments think they're accomplishing with some of the regs, so very frustrating for gardeners. It’s just like regular email. (I always include the reply so as to know what it is I’m responding to.) If you want to be driven completely crazy, check out http://www.dryad-home.co.uk/index.html and http://www.judyssnowdrops.co.uk/index.html. The latter has several pages devoted to twin-scaling (a process in which one creates more bulbs subject to endangered species regulations), which I thought I would try during my many idle hours. The instructions are clear, and make it look fairly simple. There are also some links to gardens full of snowdrops, etc. Bob Nold Denver, Colorado, USA p.s. Three weeks ago there were well over 300 snowdrops in flower here, but they’ve been under snow since then. From lauraajh@gmail.com Fri, 06 Mar 2015 12:17:04 -0800 Message-Id: <09D6145C-A6AB-41EB-8585-D60BCD3CCF74@gmail.com> From: Laura Hawthorn Subject: sourcing unusual galanthus Date: Fri, 6 Mar 2015 14:33:45 -0500 Thanks for clarifying how it works. As for those nurseries....that sound you here is my teeth gnashing. On 2015-03-06, at 2:28 PM, penstemon wrote: > > Seems like my reply shows up in the thread if I respond via email rather than use the Reply button so that's what I'm doing. Thanks for the nursery info, not sure what practical good it will do me but at least I'll be able to look at lots more pictures of snowdrops...sigh. Not sure what governments think they're accomplishing with some of the regs, so very frustrating for gardeners. > > > > It’s just like regular email. (I always include the reply so as to know what it is I’m responding to.) > If you want to be driven completely crazy, check out http://www.dryad-home.co.uk/index.html and http://www.judyssnowdrops.co.uk/index.html. The latter has several pages devoted to twin-scaling (a process in which one creates more bulbs subject to endangered species regulations), which I thought I would try during my many idle hours. The instructions are clear, and make it look fairly simple. > There are also some links to gardens full of snowdrops, etc. > Bob Nold > Denver, Colorado, USA > p.s. Three weeks ago there were well over 300 snowdrops in flower here, but they’ve been under snow since then. > _______________________________________________ > pbs mailing list > pbs@lists.ibiblio.org > http://pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php > http://pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki From janemcgary@earthlink.net Fri, 06 Mar 2015 12:17:04 -0800 Message-Id: From: Jane McGary Subject: sourcing unusual galanthus Date: Fri, 06 Mar 2015 11:57:08 -0800 I am not a collector of Galanthus forms, but over the years I have acquired some thanks to various friends and purchases from the Temple Nursery (New York), which operates via a postal catalog. For members in the USA who are interested in this genus, I think it would be worthwhile to compile a database, which would NOT be available online (no thieves in the back garden at midnight, please), gathering the holdings of a group of growers who are willing to exchange or actually sell surplus bulbs. I suppose someone could set up a forum for this purpose -- not I, particularly since in the past week my internet connection goes off about every ten minutes. I think we would be surprised to find how many species and selections are being grown within the country and not subject to CITES restrictions. Also, we could mail the bulbs when they are dormant, which is better than sending them "in the green," an outdated practice. I think we would have to agree not to bother others for material of plants of which they have only a tiny amount; perhaps the database could include some such information. I don't know how many people would want to participate in an effort like this, but I would be willing to keep the database if someone else will set up the rest of it. If there are only a dozen or so participants, we could even use just e-mail with "reply to all" correspondence. We should keep it separate from PBS. Jane McGary Portland, Oregon, USA At 08:27 AM 3/6/2015, you wrote: >Right now I'm searching everywhere for Canadian >sources of galanthus other than g.elwesii and >g.nivalis, wonderful as they are. Importing >seems impossible, the barriers are so high. So >if anyone has any advice or suggestions, I would >appreciate them very much. (This isn’t a >direct answer to your question.) Would-be >galanthophiles here in the U.S. feel your pain. >I looked at the information from Environment >Canada for importing snowdrops and it seems >similar to what is required in the U.S. It looks >like you need a CITES import permit as well as >an export permit from the country of origin. >(Someone can correct me on this if I’m wrong.) >The cost of a CITES export permit from the UK is >£74, plus an additional £2 per bulb. (Then >there’s the cost of the snowdrops themselves.) >The cost of an import permit in the US is $100. >And apparently, even when you pay for the >permits, there is no guarantee that the permits >will be granted. There are a couple of >mail-order nurseries that do export snowdrops. >One mentions the U.S. in particular, but says >nothing about Canada. So, technically, the >barriers aren’t really high, if you have >enough money to spend on permits and snowdrops, >and a willingness to fill out a form that makes >filing tax returns look like nothing. Bob Nold >Denver, Colorado, USA >_______________________________________________ >pbs mailing list pbs@lists.ibiblio.org >http://pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php http://pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki From penstemon@Q.com Fri, 06 Mar 2015 13:17:02 -0800 Message-Id: <1A54ED260B61498EB211936FBE72907F@bobPC> From: "penstemon" Subject: sourcing unusual galanthus Date: Fri, 6 Mar 2015 13:46:02 -0700 >Also, we could mail the bulbs when they are dormant, which is better than >sending them "in the green," an outdated practice. I prefer receiving snowdrops "in the green" because the survival rate is much better than snowdrops planted in October or November. (One hundred percent vs. about zero percent.) The rationale behind not sending "in the green"--that doing so damages roots which can't be replaced--sounds dubious to me, because if the bulbs are dug in July, they will still have roots, and the roots will still be damaged. (The Cornovium website indicates that bulbs are sent in July.) Bulbs sent later in the year have no roots at all, which means, in a climate like mine where winter can arrive with little warning, that the bulbs may have no time to grow all the roots they will need both for flowering and for photosynthesis (ie manufacturing the cryoprotective sugars). So an early-flowering snowdrop, like a form of Galanthus elwesii, might only have a few weeks between planting time and the time it should be in full flower; it's unlikely that it would be then prepared for the horrors of a Denver winter. Bob Nold Denver, Colorado, USA From voltaire@islandnet.com Fri, 06 Mar 2015 16:17:06 -0800 Message-Id: From: Don/Diane Subject: sourcing unusual galanthus Date: Fri, 6 Mar 2015 15:25:24 -0800 I dig them when the leaves are dying. The plant has stored up energy for next year, but I can still tell where the bulb is. In my climate, that is usually sometime in May, but that will vary across the continent. Snowdrops might still be blooming some places. Diane Whitehead Victoria, British Columbia, Canada On 2015-03-06, at 12:46 PM, penstemon wrote: > Jane: Also, we could mail the bulbs when they are dormant, which is better than sending them "in the green," an outdated practice. > > Bob: I prefer receiving snowdrops "in the green" because the survival rate is much better than snowdrops planted in October or November. (One hundred percent vs. about zero percent.) From fierycloud2002@yahoo.com.tw Fri, 06 Mar 2015 21:17:03 -0800 Message-Id: <1425704029.18600.YahooMailBasic@web75304.mail.tw1.yahoo.com> From: Fierycloud Subject: sourcing unusual galanthus Date: Sat, 7 Mar 2015 12:53:49 +0800 Hello: According to the page, does it mean that the cites permit of exporting or importing CITES species in Canada is free? http://www.ec.gc.ca/CITES/default.asp?lang=En&n=990E5322-1#_01_15 "How much does a CITES permit cost? CITES permits are available free of charge. If you would prefer your CITES permit to be sent to you by courier instead of by regular mail, you will be responsible for the additional cost." Su-Hong-Ciao Taiwan From jwaddick@kc.rr.com Fri, 06 Mar 2015 22:17:03 -0800 Message-Id: <5942D43F-791B-4D48-BD43-087E0E651A7F@kc.rr.com> From: James Waddick Subject: sourcing unusual galanthus - Trades Date: Fri, 6 Mar 2015 23:31:20 -0600 Dear PBS ers, I will have the following Galanthus for trade later when they go dormant. Do not reply to PBS, but to my email below. G. ’S. Arnott’ G. 'Don Hackenberry’ G. elwesii monostictus Thanks Jim Waddick jwaddick@kc.rr.com > On Mar 6, 2015, at 1:57 PM, Jane McGary wrote: > > I am not a collector of Galanthus forms, but over the years I have acquired some thanks to various friends and purchases from the Temple Nursery (New York), which operates via a postal catalog. For members in the USA who are interested in this genus, I think it would be worthwhile to compile a database, James Waddick 8871 NW Brostrom Rd Kansas City, MO 64152-2711 USA Phone 816-746-1949 From penstemon@Q.com Fri, 06 Mar 2015 22:17:03 -0800 Message-Id: From: "penstemon" Subject: sourcing unusual galanthus Date: Fri, 6 Mar 2015 22:31:36 -0700 According to the page, does it mean that the cites permit of exporting or importing CITES species in Canada is free? http://www.ec.gc.ca/CITES/default.asp?lang=En&n=990E5322-1#_01_15 "How much does a CITES permit cost? CITES permits are available free of charge. If you would prefer your CITES permit to be sent to you by courier instead of by regular mail, you will be responsible for the additional cost." Looks like it, doesn’t it? I was wrong (nothing new there) about importing snowdrops into the U.S. A CITES permit is not necessary to import Appendix II plants, like snowdrops. http://www.fws.gov/international/pdf/factsheet-cites-permits-and-certificates-2013.pdf However, a permit is necessary to export them from the U.K. Bob Nold Denver, Colorado, USA _______________________________________________ pbs mailing list pbs@lists.ibiblio.org http://pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php http://pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki From jgglatt@gmail.com Sat, 07 Mar 2015 09:17:04 -0800 Message-Id: <54FB2AE7.5060404@gmail.com> From: Judy Glattstein Subject: Happy, Happy Date: Sat, 07 Mar 2015 11:44:23 -0500 I had a small pot of freesias that got completely overlooked in 2012. No water at all, all year. Rediscovered it in late summer 2013 when I was repotting. Sh*t oh dear! About half the corms (of 6) had vanished. Breathed heavily on the others (CO2 helps, right?), repotted, gave extra attention. And today I have a flower! One corm of three has substantial textured peachy yellow flower open, lowest on the spike of 5 buds. No name, but lovely just the same. The other two corms are still teeny tiny but hope springs eternal for next year. Hope also springs that Spring will, eventually, arrive. So sometimes our errors of omission with the watering can are forgiven. Judy in New Jersey where the 6 inches of snow mid-week were followed by overnight temperatures of 5 degrees Fahrenheit on Thursday night, 1 degree Fahrenheit last night. And daylight savings time begins tomorrow? I'd rather have saved some warmer weather! --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. http://www.avast.com From pbs@lists.ibiblio.org Sat, 07 Mar 2015 09:17:04 -0800 Message-Id: <14bf532ce27-55c9-6e3b@webprd-a05.mail.aol.com> From: Ernie DeMarie via pbs Subject: Happy, Happy/bulbs sleeping and winter ending Date: Sat, 7 Mar 2015 12:05:22 -0500 Hi Judy et al, Glad that some of the freesias made it, I have also noticed that some South African geophytes take a snooze for a year even if watered during their appropriate season, Walleria gracilis comes to mind as one I have had do that. I also had cuttings of some succulent and decidious twiggy pelargonium spp that I never got around to doing anything with, so they got planted after missing their winter growing season and many of them survived too. Some plants are just tough, adapted for that occasional severe drought. Winter's last gasp seems to have been Thursdays snowstorm plus the 2 cold nights that followed,, after that it will all melt eventually and I dont see really vicious cold anymore in the accuweather forecasts. What a bizarre winter it has been, I thought last winter was as bad as it could possibly get, but thi one, while off to a later start, was worse, at least for February and the first week of March. But as a compensation snow cover has been excellent, good for most plants but unfortunately could be good for voles too. In about a week or so I think we will finally see the eranthis and snowdrops that should have been up by the middle to end of Feb. Can't wait for spring. Ernie DeMarie in a snow covered Briarcliff Manor with another sanity testing winter just ending. I think I'll sow more seeds........ Z7 that just barely crossed into Z6 territory once or twice this winter. From janemcgary@earthlink.net Sat, 07 Mar 2015 10:17:02 -0800 Message-Id: From: Jane McGary Subject: sourcing unusual galanthus Date: Sat, 07 Mar 2015 09:20:56 -0800 Bob Nold in Denver (known as the "mile-high city," and not in reference to their recent adjustments in the law) reports difficulty establishing snowdrop bulbs shipped dormant in late summer. My experience in the Portland, Oregon, area is quite different: I'd much rather get them in August or September than before the leaves have withered. Here, in a "cold Mediterranean" climate, most bulbs have plenty of time to develop strong root growth before the ground freezes, if it even does freeze to the depth at which they grow. I don't know how tolerant Galanthus are of deep planting, but people in colder areas might experiment with copiously available ones to see. I have been able to grow Eucomis species, which flower in summer, by planting them fairly deeply and using a lot of mulch. I have some snowdrops that have emerged well through about 2 inches (5 cm) of organic mulch on top of their bulbs planted at the usual growing depth Jane McGary Portland, Oregon, USA .At 12:46 PM 3/6/2015, you wrote: I prefer receiving snowdrops "in the green" because the survival rate is much better than snowdrops planted in October or November. (One hundred percent vs. about zero percent.) >The rationale behind not sending "in the green"--that doing so >damages roots which can't be replaced--sounds dubious to me, because >if the bulbs are dug in July, they will still have roots, and the >roots will still be damaged. (The Cornovium website indicates that >bulbs are sent in July.) >Bulbs sent later in the year have no roots at all, which means, in a >climate like mine where winter can arrive with little warning, that >the bulbs may have no time to grow all the roots they will need both >for flowering and for photosynthesis (ie manufacturing the >cryoprotective sugars). >So an early-flowering snowdrop, like a form of Galanthus elwesii, >might only have a few weeks between planting time and the time it >should be in full flower; it's unlikely that it would be then >prepared for the horrors of a Denver winter. > >Bob Nold >Denver, Colorado, USA From markemazer@gmail.com Sat, 07 Mar 2015 10:17:02 -0800 Message-Id: From: Mark Mazer Subject: Happy, Happy/bulbs sleeping and winter ending Date: Sat, 7 Mar 2015 13:07:53 -0500 > Can't wait for spring.< Judy, Earnie; By the looks of the bird populations headed your way on Southerly winds, Spring weather is on the way to the I-95 corridor this coming week. Mark Mazer Hertford, NC On Sat, Mar 7, 2015 at 12:05 PM, Ernie DeMarie via pbs < pbs@lists.ibiblio.org> wrote: > Hi Judy et al, > Glad that some of the freesias made it, I have also noticed that some > South African geophytes take a snooze for a year even if watered during > their appropriate season, Walleria gracilis comes to mind as one I have had > do that. I also had cuttings of some succulent and decidious twiggy > pelargonium spp that I never got around to doing anything with, so they got > planted after missing their winter growing season and many of them survived > too. Some plants are just tough, adapted for that occasional severe > drought. > Winter's last gasp seems to have been Thursdays snowstorm plus the 2 cold > nights that followed,, after that it will all melt eventually and I dont > see really vicious cold anymore in the accuweather forecasts. What a > bizarre winter it has been, I thought last winter was as bad as it could > possibly get, but thi one, while off to a later start, was worse, at least > for February and the first week of March. But as a compensation snow cover > has been excellent, good for most plants but unfortunately could be good > for voles too. In about a week or so I think we will finally see the > eranthis and snowdrops that should have been up by the middle to end of > Feb. Can't wait for spring. > Ernie DeMarie > in a snow covered Briarcliff Manor with another sanity testing winter just > ending. I think I'll sow more seeds........ > Z7 that just barely crossed into Z6 territory once or twice this winter. > > > > _______________________________________________ > pbs mailing list > pbs@lists.ibiblio.org > http://pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php > http://pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki > From russell@odysseybulbs.com Sat, 07 Mar 2015 13:17:02 -0800 Message-Id: <20150307202448.C03AF20D21@lists.ibiblio.org> From: "Russell Stafford, Odyssey Bulbs" Subject: Odyssey Bulbs catalog -- brief commercial announcement Date: Sat, 07 Mar 2015 15:24:39 -0500 The 2015 Odyssey Bulbs catalog is now on line at www.odysseybulbs.com. Russell Russell Stafford Odyssey Bulbs PO Box 382 South Lancaster, MA 01561 508-335-8106 russell@odysseybulbs.com www.odysseybulbs.com www.facebook.com/odysseybulbs --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. http://www.avast.com From toadlily@olywa.net Sat, 07 Mar 2015 14:17:03 -0800 Message-Id: <54FB6DF2.5040502@olywa.net> From: Laura & Dave Subject: sourcing unusual galanthus Date: Sat, 07 Mar 2015 13:30:26 -0800 Hi Like Jane, I don't collect Galanthus forms, but also have gotten a few. (How can you pass up a plant with a bit of green at the ends of the outer tepals?) What I most enjoy is growing /species/ of many genera, especially from seed. This would include Galanthus, if only seed were available for more of the species. Perhaps part of the database could list growers that would be willing to share seed as well, and for the species, with a reasonable assurance of the seed being true to type. Many other pieces of data pertaining to the plants could be added, such as its provenance, as well as photos and cultural information. And it could be web based. Hmmm. It sounds a lot like a Study Group offshoot of the main PBS wiki, with more detail, and a restricted access. I'd enjoy working on this project, as I'm immersed in learning web and database programming, after a 20 year hiatus from that world. It will be a month or two before I get all the pieces under control for a project like this. But it would give me something to do in the real world, something I have a great interest in. Dave Brastow, Tumwater, Washington - Enjoying our 6th week of weirdly sunny and warm weather. From lauraajh@gmail.com Sat, 07 Mar 2015 14:17:03 -0800 Message-Id: <7DD70ABE-2500-4A02-A385-B02E3CE748DA@gmail.com> From: Laura Hawthorn Subject: sourcing unusual galanthus Date: Sat, 7 Mar 2015 16:33:19 -0500 Copiously available...hahahaha...sorry, couldn't resist the hysterical laughter. Anyway, even if I can get hold of some bulbs in the fall, my experience with them hasn't been at all satisfactory. Same issue as Bob Nold mentioned - they just don't have time to establish themselves before winter hits. And here, in Toronto, it's quite possible to get a snap freeze in early November. On 2015-03-07, at 12:20 PM, Jane McGary wrote: > Bob Nold in Denver (known as the "mile-high city," and not in reference to their recent adjustments in the law) reports difficulty establishing snowdrop bulbs shipped dormant in late summer. My experience in the Portland, Oregon, area is quite different: I'd much rather get them in August or September than before the leaves have withered. Here, in a "cold Mediterranean" climate, most bulbs have plenty of time to develop strong root growth before the ground freezes, if it even does freeze to the depth at which they grow. > > I don't know how tolerant Galanthus are of deep planting, but people in colder areas might experiment with copiously available ones to see. I have been able to grow Eucomis species, which flower in summer, by planting them fairly deeply and using a lot of mulch. I have some snowdrops that have emerged well through about 2 inches (5 cm) of organic mulch on top of their bulbs planted at the usual growing depth > > Jane McGary > Portland, Oregon, USA > > .At 12:46 PM 3/6/2015, you wrote: > I prefer receiving snowdrops "in the green" because the survival rate is much better than snowdrops planted in October or November. (One hundred percent vs. about zero percent.) >> The rationale behind not sending "in the green"--that doing so damages roots which can't be replaced--sounds dubious to me, because if the bulbs are dug in July, they will still have roots, and the roots will still be damaged. (The Cornovium website indicates that bulbs are sent in July.) >> Bulbs sent later in the year have no roots at all, which means, in a climate like mine where winter can arrive with little warning, that the bulbs may have no time to grow all the roots they will need both for flowering and for photosynthesis (ie manufacturing the cryoprotective sugars). >> So an early-flowering snowdrop, like a form of Galanthus elwesii, might only have a few weeks between planting time and the time it should be in full flower; it's unlikely that it would be then prepared for the horrors of a Denver winter. >> >> Bob Nold >> Denver, Colorado, USA > > _______________________________________________ > pbs mailing list > pbs@lists.ibiblio.org > http://pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php > http://pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki From penstemon@Q.com Sat, 07 Mar 2015 15:17:02 -0800 Message-Id: <6486F4F9D29C457990CCCA6C1563971D@bobPC> From: "penstemon" Subject: sourcing unusual galanthus Date: Sat, 7 Mar 2015 15:52:36 -0700 >I don't know how tolerant Galanthus are of deep planting, but people in colder areas might experiment with copiously available ones to see. It’s my impression, based on digging up snowdrop bulbs (not on purpose) any time in the summer, that the bulbs always have roots. (I water the garden where the snowdrops are about once a week in the summer.) Autumn is the driest season here (a couple of years ago we had 17.8 mm of precipitation from the end of July until the end of the year). In semi-arid and arid regions, evaporation exceeds percolation in clay soil, regardless of any organic matter, and so I would have to have the hose on continually in order for the snowdrop bulbs to form decent roots. I think what I’ll do this year is order a bunch of “ordinary” snowdrops, soak them in water for a few hours (like I do with most bulbs), plant them in flats, water them until roots have formed, and then plant them in the garden. Bob Nold Denver, Colorado, USA some reticulatas in bloom here _______________________________________________ pbs mailing list pbs@lists.ibiblio.org http://pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php http://pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki From rdevries@comcast.net Sun, 08 Mar 2015 09:17:03 -0700 Message-Id: <85828DB6-14F4-4C4D-B4AB-AACD239E9E5D@comcast.net> From: Rimmer deVries Subject: sourcing unusual galanthus Date: Sun, 8 Mar 2015 11:21:48 -0400 The common Dutch imported snowdrops (Galanthus nivalis, G. elwesii and G. woronowii) from typical mail order places and local retailers seem to do well here in SE Michigan I typically plant them as early as the bulbs are available for the local retalers in Late August. I just scatter the bulbs on the surface and sprinkle dirt and pine bark mulch over top and water in. because tree roots make it too difficult to dig them in. and water in. by next summer the bulbs will be on the surface and i top them again, these multiply like weeds in the summer dry clay soil under the trees and anywhere the seeds fall. if the bulbs appear dry soak the bulbs for a few hours and plant in pots and overwinter in a cold frame or cold greenhouse and they should grow the roots needed to survive. if you dont have a cold frame bury the pots under a pile of damp leaves in the shade near the house foundation. Fall blooming snow drops planted last September and blooming in the garden in Dec.- January before the super cold are reappearing in the melting snow now with blooms unfazed by the 20“ of snow cover Rimmer SE MI Zone 5 (this winter was Zone 4) > On Mar 7, 2015, at 4:33 PM, Laura Hawthorn wrote: > > Copiously available...hahahaha...sorry, couldn't resist the hysterical laughter. Anyway, even if I can get hold of some bulbs in the fall, my experience with them hasn't been at all satisfactory. Same issue as Bob Nold mentioned - they just don't have time to establish themselves before winter hits. And here, in Toronto, it's quite possible to get a snap freeze in early November. > _______________________________________________ pbs mailing list pbs@lists.ibiblio.org http://pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php http://pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki From stnalpsoel@gmail.com Sun, 08 Mar 2015 14:17:02 -0700 Message-Id: From: Leo Martin Subject: sourcing unusual galanthus Date: Sun, 8 Mar 2015 14:07:35 -0700 Do people like snowdrops because they are beautiful, or because they bloom during the most miserable time of the year? Leo Martin Zone ? Phoenix Arizona USA From kellso@irvincentral.com Sun, 08 Mar 2015 15:17:03 -0700 Message-Id: <54FCC075.5000001@irvincentral.com> From: Kelly Irvin Subject: sourcing unusual galanthus Date: Sun, 08 Mar 2015 16:34:45 -0500 Leo: Yes. -- Mr. Kelly M. Irvin 10850 Hodge Ln Gravette, AR 72736 USA Home Phone: 479-787-9958 USDA Cold Hardiness Zone 6a/b Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/kelly.m.irvin On 3/8/15 4:07 PM, Leo Martin wrote: > Do people like snowdrops because they are beautiful, or because they bloom > during the most miserable time of the year? > > Leo Martin > Zone ? > Phoenix Arizona USA > _______________________________________________ > pbs mailing list > pbs@lists.ibiblio.org > http://pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php > http://pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki > From penstemon@Q.com Sun, 08 Mar 2015 15:17:03 -0700 Message-Id: <07117E35DF3F44AFB5A3466690B8640E@bobPC> From: "penstemon" Subject: sourcing unusual galanthus Date: Sun, 8 Mar 2015 15:52:11 -0600 Do people like snowdrops because they are beautiful, or because they bloom during the most miserable time of the year? ”If they flowered at midsummer we should not accord much enthusiasm to snowdrops, but in the earliest months they are specially welcome, and a study of their leaf colours from grey to shining rich green, the vernation, and flower variations provide a lot of interest.” (Graham Stuart Thomas, Three Gardens) Snow, if you didn’t know, is extremely boring. Here in Denver, where the snow has developed the habit of lingering, like a house guest who won’t leave, the fact that snowdrops appear when the snow disappears, even if only for a few days, makes them pretty wonderful. Bob Nold Denver, Colorado, USA _______________________________________________ pbs mailing list pbs@lists.ibiblio.org http://pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php http://pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki From david@pilling.demon.co.uk Wed, 11 Mar 2015 11:17:04 -0700 Message-Id: <54FF008D.1010203@pilling.demon.co.uk> From: David Pilling Subject: Iris virginica 'Contraband Girl' Date: Tue, 10 Mar 2015 14:32:45 +0000 Hi, There was an email to the PBS web site from Paul Archer concerning the photo of Iris virginica 'Contraband Girl' on this wiki page: http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki/index.php/BeardlessIrisesThree#virginica or as non-mangled URL: http://tinyurl.com/mokrxh8 Paul says: > This iris was registered as as a Louisiana Iris. > Is Registration incorrect or is picture labelled incorrect? > Hard to say from looking at picture if is one or the other, > except that LA's don't usually have much anthocyanin striping > in their yellow signals, whereas this picture does. > A google search pulls it up both ways with a similar looking photo. Would any Iris experts like comment? -- David Pilling www.davidpilling.com From dkramb@badbear.com Wed, 11 Mar 2015 11:17:04 -0700 Message-Id: From: Dennis Kramb Subject: Iris virginica 'Contraband Girl' Date: Tue, 10 Mar 2015 10:56:54 -0400 I've never heard it called a Louisiana. The 'Contraband Girl' that I've seen in commerce in recent years is definitely a virginica. That PBS photo is a virginica. Dennis in Cincinnati On Tue, Mar 10, 2015 at 10:32 AM, David Pilling wrote: > Hi, > > There was an email to the PBS web site from Paul Archer concerning the > photo of Iris virginica 'Contraband Girl' on this wiki page: > > http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki/index.php/ > BeardlessIrisesThree#virginica > > or as non-mangled URL: > > http://tinyurl.com/mokrxh8 > > Paul says: > > > This iris was registered as as a Louisiana Iris. > > Is Registration incorrect or is picture labelled incorrect? > > Hard to say from looking at picture if is one or the other, > > except that LA's don't usually have much anthocyanin striping > > in their yellow signals, whereas this picture does. > > A google search pulls it up both ways with a similar looking photo. > > Would any Iris experts like comment? > > > -- > David Pilling > www.davidpilling.com > _______________________________________________ > pbs mailing list > pbs@lists.ibiblio.org > http://pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php > http://pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki > From zera@umich.edu Wed, 11 Mar 2015 11:17:04 -0700 Message-Id: From: Sean Zera Subject: Iris virginica 'Contraband Girl' Date: Tue, 10 Mar 2015 11:29:05 -0400 The correct 'Contraband Girl' was registered in 1953 as a Louisiana collected from the wild. It's described as 36" high, while the *virginica* going by the same name is said to reach 6 feet. It looks like it needs a new moniker. Sean Z On Tue, Mar 10, 2015 at 10:56 AM, Dennis Kramb wrote: > I've never heard it called a Louisiana. The 'Contraband Girl' that I've > seen in commerce in recent years is definitely a virginica. That PBS photo > is a virginica. > > Dennis in Cincinnati > > > On Tue, Mar 10, 2015 at 10:32 AM, David Pilling > > wrote: > > > Hi, > > > > There was an email to the PBS web site from Paul Archer concerning the > > photo of Iris virginica 'Contraband Girl' on this wiki page: > > > > http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki/index.php/ > > BeardlessIrisesThree#virginica > > > > or as non-mangled URL: > > > > http://tinyurl.com/mokrxh8 > > > > Paul says: > > > > > This iris was registered as as a Louisiana Iris. > > > Is Registration incorrect or is picture labelled incorrect? > > > Hard to say from looking at picture if is one or the other, > > > except that LA's don't usually have much anthocyanin striping > > > in their yellow signals, whereas this picture does. > > > A google search pulls it up both ways with a similar looking photo. > > > > Would any Iris experts like comment? > > > > > > -- > > David Pilling > > www.davidpilling.com > > _______________________________________________ > > pbs mailing list > > pbs@lists.ibiblio.org > > http://pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php > > http://pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki > > > _______________________________________________ > pbs mailing list > pbs@lists.ibiblio.org > http://pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php > http://pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki > From jwaddick@kc.rr.com Tue, 10 Mar 2015 10:17:04 -0700 Message-Id: <58F4B000-7BB6-483A-B815-A51760BCADAE@kc.rr.com> From: James Waddick Subject: Iris virginica 'Contraband Girl' Date: Tue, 10 Mar 2015 11:21:10 -0500 Dear All, The name ‘Contraband Girl’ is formally registered by the AIS as BOTH a Louisiana Iris (1953) and as a form of I. virginica (1992). This is obvioulsy a problem in registration. Hard to determine why the registrar accepted this name in 1992 since the name was already in use and valid. There is a possibility that the plant registered in 1953 was not actually a LA iris, but mis-identified by the registrant. This is hinted at in the AIS wiki entry for the I. virginica. (http://wiki.irises.org/bin/view/Spec/SpecContrabandGirl ) If this is true, both names apply to the same variety, but the plant is actually an I. virginica selection. The 1992 registration may have been a correction to the 1953 identification. I wonder if the 1953 ‘LA' Iris with this name is still in commerce or gardens anywhere. Needs some further study. Best Jim W. > On Mar 10, 2015, at 10:29 AM, Sean Zera wrote: > > The correct 'Contraband Girl' was registered in 1953 as a Louisiana > collected from the wild. James Waddick 8871 NW Brostrom Rd Kansas City, MO 64152-2711 USA Phone 816-746-1949 _______________________________________________ pbs mailing list pbs@lists.ibiblio.org http://pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php http://pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki From pbs@lists.ibiblio.org Tue, 10 Mar 2015 10:17:04 -0700 Message-Id: <1009679884.2795762.1426005199964.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> From: Rodney Barton via pbs Subject: Iris virginica 'Contraband Girl' Date: Tue, 10 Mar 2015 16:33:19 +0000 (UTC) The SLI Check has a photo of the I. virginica. I think it was registered incorrectly in the first place. It grows so well in typical garden soil I've always suspected that it is really x robusta. Rod From: James Waddick To: Pacific Bulb Society Sent: Tuesday, March 10, 2015 11:21 AM Subject: Re: [pbs] Iris virginica 'Contraband Girl' Dear All,     The  name ‘Contraband Girl’ is formally registered by the AIS as BOTH a Louisiana Iris (1953) and as a form of I. virginica (1992).     This is obvioulsy a problem in registration. Hard to determine why the registrar accepted this name in 1992 since the name was already in use and valid.     There is a possibility that the plant registered in 1953 was not actually a LA iris, but mis-identified by the registrant. This is hinted at in the AIS wiki entry for the I. virginica. (http://wiki.irises.org/bin/view/Spec/SpecContrabandGirl ) If this is true, both names apply to the same variety, but the plant is actually an I. virginica selection. The 1992 registration may have been a correction to the 1953 identification.     I wonder if the 1953 ‘LA' Iris with this name is still in commerce or gardens anywhere.         Needs some further study.         Best        Jim W. > On Mar 10, 2015, at 10:29 AM, Sean Zera wrote: > > The correct 'Contraband Girl' was registered in 1953 as a Louisiana > collected from the wild. James Waddick 8871 NW Brostrom Rd Kansas City, MO 64152-2711 USA Phone    816-746-1949 _______________________________________________ pbs mailing list pbs@lists.ibiblio.org http://pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php http://pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki From david@pilling.demon.co.uk Tue, 10 Mar 2015 15:17:03 -0700 Message-Id: <54FF620B.6060301@pilling.demon.co.uk> From: David Pilling Subject: Iris virginica 'Contraband Girl' Date: Tue, 10 Mar 2015 21:28:43 +0000 Hi, Paul has given me a reference: http://forums.gardenweb.com/discussions/1993754/is-contraband-girl-a-flag-or-la-iris-or-both where the matter is discussed. Does anyone fancy writing a bit of text for the wiki to explain this situation... -- David Pilling www.davidpilling.com From zera@umich.edu Tue, 10 Mar 2015 15:17:03 -0700 Message-Id: From: Sean Zera Subject: Iris virginica 'Contraband Girl' Date: Tue, 10 Mar 2015 18:05:40 -0400 > > The name ‘Contraband Girl’ is formally registered by the AIS as > BOTH a Louisiana Iris (1953) and as a form of I. virginica (1992). > Huh, the 1992 registration doesn't appear when searching the online register. Curiouser and curiouser... > There is a possibility that the plant registered in 1953 was not > actually a LA iris, but mis-identified by the registrant. Except for the dramatically different height the current plant does seem to meet the original description, though there's not much to go on. Sean Z _______________________________________________ pbs mailing list pbs@lists.ibiblio.org http://pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php http://pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki From genus1954@gmail.com Tue, 10 Mar 2015 18:17:03 -0700 Message-Id: From: Jyl Tuck Subject: galanthus Date: Tue, 10 Mar 2015 17:54:04 -0700 Leo, Those are 2 good reasons. I've seen them poke up their heads, then wait for weeks after a snow storm to be seen again and be just fine. They were here on the property when we arrived 24 years ago and I have moved them everywhere ( in green or dried up bulbs forgotten in a container) , and shared 100s of them. Mine have now been in flower for a month. The bees and butterflies love them. They remind me of my childhood, picking a bunch with my Dad for my Mom. Shucks! Thats enough out of any bulb for me. jyl tuck yale bc From brown.mark@wanadoo.fr Wed, 11 Mar 2015 02:17:04 -0700 Message-Id: <302472198.7760.1426064068405.JavaMail.www@wwinf1e30> From: Mark BROWN Subject: sourcing unusual galanthus Date: Wed, 11 Mar 2015 09:54:28 +0100 (CET) Dear Jane and all, I am back on facebook under the advice received here. I'a real glad I did because there is an amazing snowdrop forum there where swapping goes on in Europe like mad! I believe there is an american forum there too? Could you not use that as a base for swapping in the states? Kind regards,  Mark         > Message du 06/03/15 20:58 > De : "Jane McGary" > A : "Pacific Bulb Society" > Copie à : > Objet : Re: [pbs] sourcing unusual galanthus > > I am not a collector of Galanthus forms, but over > the years I have acquired some thanks to various > friends and purchases from the Temple Nursery > (New York), which operates via a postal catalog. > For members in the USA who are interested in this > genus, I think it would be worthwhile to compile > a database, which would NOT be available online > (no thieves in the back garden at midnight, > please), gathering the holdings of a group of > growers who are willing to exchange or actually > sell surplus bulbs. I suppose someone could set > up a forum for this purpose -- not I, > particularly since in the past week my internet > connection goes off about every ten minutes. I > think we would be surprised to find how many > species and selections are being grown within the > country and not subject to CITES restrictions. > Also, we could mail the bulbs when they are > dormant, which is better than sending them "in > the green," an outdated practice. I think we > would have to agree not to bother others for > material of plants of which they have only a tiny > amount; perhaps the database could include some such information. > > I don't know how many people would want to > participate in an effort like this, but I would > be willing to keep the database if someone else > will set up the rest of it. If there are only a > dozen or so participants, we could even use just > e-mail with "reply to all" correspondence. We should keep it separate from PBS. > > Jane McGary > Portland, Oregon, USA > > > > At 08:27 AM 3/6/2015, you wrote: > >Right now I'm searching everywhere for Canadian > >sources of galanthus other than g.elwesii and > >g.nivalis, wonderful as they are. Importing > >seems impossible, the barriers are so high. So > >if anyone has any advice or suggestions, I would > >appreciate them very much. (This isn’t a > >direct answer to your question.) Would-be > >galanthophiles here in the U.S. feel your pain. > >I looked at the information from Environment > >Canada for importing snowdrops and it seems > >similar to what is required in the U.S. It looks > >like you need a CITES import permit as well as > >an export permit from the country of origin. > >(Someone can correct me on this if I’m wrong.) > >The cost of a CITES export permit from the UK is > >£74, plus an additional £2 per bulb. (Then > >there’s the cost of the snowdrops themselves.) > >The cost of an import permit in the US is $100. > >And apparently, even when you pay for the > >permits, there is no guarantee that the permits > >will be granted. There are a couple of > >mail-order nurseries that do export snowdrops. > >One mentions the U.S. in particular, but says > >nothing about Canada. So, technically, the > >barriers aren’t really high, if you have > >enough money to spend on permits and snowdrops, > >and a willingness to fill out a form that makes > >filing tax returns look like nothing. Bob Nold > >Denver, Colorado, USA > >_______________________________________________ > >pbs mailing list pbs@lists.ibiblio.org > >http://pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php http://pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki > > _______________________________________________ > pbs mailing list > pbs@lists.ibiblio.org > http://pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php > http://pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki > _______________________________________________ pbs mailing list pbs@lists.ibiblio.org http://pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php http://pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki From enoster@hotmail.com Wed, 11 Mar 2015 06:17:04 -0700 Message-Id: From: Travis O Subject: Videos of bees, flies, and bulbs Date: Wed, 11 Mar 2015 05:36:11 -0700 Hi, This weekend I recorded more bulbs being visited by pollinators. Please select the high def version, or at least the 480 version to see the best detail. I have about eight blue and white hyacinths planted pretty far apart from each other. Despite that, I watched as two or three honeybees worked each plant at a time! The blue varieties seem to be more attractive to them. In the background you may hear my daughter, Zia, she'll be two in June. Honeybees on hyacinth: http://youtu.be/BFDrD1mhVIg The second video shows a Syrphid fly on Anemone blanda, presumably eating pollen. You can see the fly's proboscis moving in and out. I couldn't get any closer, hoverflies are too skittish and take me for a predator, haha. Hoverfly on Anemone: http://youtu.be/bJfeBZGcVK0 And of course, a few accompanying pictures on my blog: http://amateuranthecologist.blogspot.com/ ---- Spring feels like it's been here for months (what winter?). Crocus buds appeared in November! Now, Dodecatheon is blooming everywhere and just yesterday I saw the first Erythronium hendersonii with an open flower! It was at least a week or two ahead of all the rest, whose buds are just above the soil level. I hope y'all in the East can have spring soon. Go make snow angels! -Travis Owen Rogue River, OR From janemcgary@earthlink.net Wed, 11 Mar 2015 11:17:04 -0700 Message-Id: From: Jane McGary Subject: sourcing unusual galanthus Date: Wed, 11 Mar 2015 10:29:51 -0700 Mark wrote: >Dear Jane and all, I am back on facebook under the advice received >here. I'a real glad I did because there is an amazing snowdrop forum >there where swapping goes on in Europe like mad! I believe there is >an american forum there too? Could you not use that as a base for >swapping in the states? I don't know how most people feel about it, but I would not want to register on Facebook, even for the sake of getting plants! I get far too much spam as it is, probably from having my email address available on the PBS website as membership coordinator. Jane McGary Portland, Oregon, USA From janemcgary@earthlink.net Wed, 11 Mar 2015 11:17:04 -0700 Message-Id: From: Jane McGary Subject: Families in the former Liliaceae Date: Wed, 11 Mar 2015 10:44:51 -0700 I have been informed that there is no longer a family Alliaceae, and that genera formerly in that split of the once-upon-a-time Liliaceae are now in the Amaryllidaceae. Is this currently correct? Alliaceae made sense to me from the morphological viewpoint, but the author of a book I reviewed online criticized me for thinking it had been omitted from her list of families as a typographical error. Jane McGary Portland, Oregon, USA From xerantheum@gmail.com Wed, 11 Mar 2015 11:17:04 -0700 Message-Id: From: Nhu Nguyen Subject: Families in the former Liliaceae Date: Wed, 11 Mar 2015 13:10:51 -0500 The recent merge of the family Alliaceae and Agapanthaceae into Amaryllidaceae (APGIII) is one that I actually agree with. For a long time, Alliaceae moved around from Liliaceae, to Amaryllidaceae, to Alliaceae, and now back Amaryllidaceae. The reason they moved around a lot was because they had characters that don't quite fit into any groups. What it currently means is that the family Amaryllidaceae is very large, with perhaps 1500 species (the genus Allium alone contained about 750 species). One of the reasons I like this merge is because these plants can be grown in similar ways. Most contain good and solid definitions of bulbs, and their floral morphologies are also similar. So Jane, you were most correct to not include Alliaceae in your book review. Nhu On Wed, Mar 11, 2015 at 12:44 PM, Jane McGary wrote: > I have been informed that there is no longer a family Alliaceae, and that > genera formerly in that split of the once-upon-a-time Liliaceae are now in > the Amaryllidaceae. Is this currently correct? > > Alliaceae made sense to me from the morphological viewpoint, but the > author of a book I reviewed online criticized me for thinking it had been > omitted from her list of families as a typographical error. > From brown.mark@wanadoo.fr Wed, 11 Mar 2015 12:17:06 -0700 Message-Id: <898196901.27661.1426100913046.JavaMail.www@wwinf1j18> From: Mark BROWN Subject: sourcing unusual galanthus Date: Wed, 11 Mar 2015 20:08:33 +0100 (CET)   I followed Rowland's advice and it works wonderfully! No more hassels and just loads of info, sharing photos and swapping of snowdrops. There are some great guys from eastern block countries too there. It is amazing what they are posting. And the translation is quite good too. Great!! Mark       > Message du 11/03/15 18:42 > De : "Jane McGary" > I don't know how most people feel about it, but I would not want to > register on Facebook, even for the sake of getting plants! I get far > too much spam as it is, probably from having my email address > available on the PBS website as membership coordinator. _______________________________________________ pbs mailing list pbs@lists.ibiblio.org http://pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php http://pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki From pbs@lists.ibiblio.org Wed, 11 Mar 2015 13:17:03 -0700 Message-Id: <1272310229.2760844.1426102594852.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> From: aaron floden via pbs Subject: Families in the former Liliaceae Date: Wed, 11 Mar 2015 19:36:34 +0000 (UTC) Yes, the Alliaceae are now thrown in with the Amaryllidaceae. These are in the Asparagales which is sister to the Liliales. The reduced Liliaceae is now a relatively small family with a lot of the other genera now in smaller families. I still see the Alliaceae as a separate and nice family, but then Agapanthaceae would have to be recognized too. I am sure we'll see another paper soon that supports more concise families in the now broadly circumscribed Asparagaceae and Amaryllidaceae.  Aaron From: Jane McGary To: Pacific Bulb Society Sent: Wednesday, March 11, 2015 1:44 PM Subject: [pbs] Families in the former Liliaceae I have been informed that there is no longer a family Alliaceae, and that genera formerly in that split of the once-upon-a-time Liliaceae are now in the Amaryllidaceae. Is this currently correct? Alliaceae made sense to me from the morphological viewpoint, but the author of a book I reviewed online criticized me for thinking it had been omitted from her list of families as a typographical error. _______________________________________________ pbs mailing list pbs@lists.ibiblio.org http://pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php http://pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki From paige@hillkeep.ca Wed, 11 Mar 2015 13:17:03 -0700 Message-Id: <8C56807C-8C00-43FB-ABF9-0FED965E2B85@hillkeep.ca> From: Paige Woodward Subject: Families in the former Liliaceae Date: Wed, 11 Mar 2015 12:55:29 -0700 Some days I find it thrilling to follow botanical ideas and distinctions; other days I'd rather weed. For a quick hit of currently accepted names, I usually rely on The Plant List maintained by Kew http://www.theplantlist.org (the list's keepers do admit it's imperfect). For greater depth, I often wander over to the Angiosperm Phylogeny site maintained on the servers of the Missouri Botanical Garden http://www.mobot.org/MOBOT/research/APweb . This is the "APG III" to which Nhu refers. Here one can find all kinds of data: plant names and former names, cladograms of relationships, detalis of the the traits that distinguish one taxon from another and, crucially, references to the publications on which the new last word is based. If you go to the APG III Home page and click on TREES at the top, you'll get a cladogram of all the Orders in angiosperms; you can click on each Order to see relationships at lower levels. In the first tree, Asparagales contains the family Amaryllidaceae, which contains the genus Allium. Liliales is right above Asparagales. It's easy to compare traits (and to imagine why Aaron might expect more papers to come). Paige Woodward British Columbia, Canada wet Zone 6 From voltaire@islandnet.com Wed, 11 Mar 2015 14:17:03 -0700 Message-Id: <3DA75736-EA7B-47A1-9C3F-E471636017F1@islandnet.com> From: Don/Diane Subject: Families in the former Liliaceae Date: Wed, 11 Mar 2015 13:50:31 -0700 On 2015-03-11, at 10:44 AM, Jane McGary wrote: > I have been informed that there is no longer a family Alliaceae, and that genera formerly in that split of the once-upon-a-time Liliaceae are now in the Amaryllidaceae. I hope the narcissus bulb fly doesn't find out. Imagine having them hollow out my onions and leeks! Diane Whitehead Victoria, B.C., Canada From adalwolf34@hotmail.com Wed, 11 Mar 2015 15:17:03 -0700 Message-Id: From: Alf Valjebeck Subject: Families in the former Liliaceae Date: Wed, 11 Mar 2015 22:21:34 +0100 Well said my dear , Alf Don/Diane skrev den 2015-03-11 21:50: > On 2015-03-11, at 10:44 AM, Jane McGary wrote: > >> I have been informed that there is no longer a family Alliaceae, and that genera formerly in that split of the once-upon-a-time Liliaceae are now in the Amaryllidaceae. > I hope the narcissus bulb fly doesn't find out. Imagine having them hollow out my onions and leeks! > > > Diane Whitehead > Victoria, B.C., Canada > _______________________________________________ > pbs mailing list > pbs@lists.ibiblio.org > http://pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php > http://pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki --- Detta e-postmeddelande har sökts igenom efter virus med antivirusprogram från Avast. http://www.avast.com From robin@no1bird.net Fri, 13 Mar 2015 20:17:15 -0700 Message-Id: <5500B417.4030502@no1bird.net> From: Robin Subject: sourcing unusual galanthus Date: Wed, 11 Mar 2015 17:31:03 -0400 my computer deletes all of my junk mail. On 3/11/2015 3:08 PM, Mark BROWN wrote: > > I followed Rowland's advice and it works wonderfully! > No more hassels and just loads of info, sharing photos and swapping of snowdrops. > There are some great guys from eastern block countries too there. > It is amazing what they are posting. > And the translation is quite good too. > Great!! > Mark > > > >> Message du 11/03/15 18:42 >> De : "Jane McGary" >> I don't know how most people feel about it, but I would not want to >> register on Facebook, even for the sake of getting plants! I get far >> too much spam as it is, probably from having my email address >> available on the PBS website as membership coordinator. > _______________________________________________ > pbs mailing list > pbs@lists.ibiblio.org > http://pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php > http://pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki From pbs@lists.ibiblio.org Wed, 11 Mar 2015 17:17:04 -0700 Message-Id: <1426117254.22182.BPMail_high_carrier@web120401.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> From: Rick Buell via pbs Subject: Seed-grown amorphophallus ongsakulii source? (Rick Buell) Date: Wed, 11 Mar 2015 16:40:54 -0700 I'm looking for a source for seed-grown plants of a.ongsakulii, or fresh seeds. I've got lots of bulbs of this, but as usual I'm interested in successful pollination. Seed appeared occasionally on ebay in the past, but there's nothing currently. Thanks, Rick Buell From barbara@adamsranch.net Thu, 12 Mar 2015 02:17:04 -0700 Message-Id: From: "Barbara Adams" Subject: sourcing unusual galanthus Date: Thu, 12 Mar 2015 09:02:36 +0000 There is no spam from facebook there is no way for anyone to send to you. You can join and block out all your info to everyone but facebook and they don’t send anything. zone 9B Latrobe Ca ------ Original Message ------ From: "Jane McGary" To: "Pacific Bulb Society" Sent: 3/11/2015 10:29:51 AM Subject: Re: [pbs] sourcing unusual galanthus >Mark wrote: >>Dear Jane and all, I am back on facebook under the advice received >>here. I'a real glad I did because there is an amazing snowdrop forum >>there where swapping goes on in Europe like mad! I believe there is an >>american forum there too? Could you not use that as a base for >>swapping in the states? > >I don't know how most people feel about it, but I would not want to >register on Facebook, even for the sake of getting plants! I get far >too much spam as it is, probably from having my email address available >on the PBS website as membership coordinator. > >Jane McGary >Portland, Oregon, USA > > > > >_______________________________________________ >pbs mailing list >pbs@lists.ibiblio.org >http://pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php >http://pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki _______________________________________________ pbs mailing list pbs@lists.ibiblio.org http://pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php http://pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki From janemcgary@earthlink.net Thu, 12 Mar 2015 10:17:04 -0700 Message-Id: From: Jane McGary Subject: Seeking to contact Jay Yourch Date: Thu, 12 Mar 2015 09:22:52 -0700 A publisher's staff member has contacted me via the website asking for permission to publish a photo contributed to the wiki by former PBS member Jay Yourch. If anyone has his current contact address, please write to me privately so I can put the editor in touch with him. Thanks, Jane McGary Membership Coordinator, PBS From petersirises@gmail.com Thu, 12 Mar 2015 14:17:03 -0700 Message-Id: From: Peter Taggart Subject: Seed-grown amorphophallus ongsakulii source? (Rick Buell) Date: Thu, 12 Mar 2015 20:42:07 +0000 Are you in the international aroid society? Peter On 11 March 2015 at 23:40, Rick Buell via pbs wrote: > > I'm looking for a source for seed-grown plants of a.ongsakulii, or fresh > seeds. I've got lots of bulbs of this, but as usual I'm interested in > successful pollination. Seed appeared occasionally on ebay in the past, but > there's nothing currently. > > Thanks, > > Rick Buell > _______________________________________________ > pbs mailing list > pbs@lists.ibiblio.org > http://pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php > http://pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki > From hornig@oswego.edu Thu, 12 Mar 2015 15:17:03 -0700 Message-Id: From: Ellen Hornig Subject: Seeking to contact Jay Yourch Date: Thu, 12 Mar 2015 18:14:50 -0400 Hi, Jane - he's selling crinums on eBay - failing other means, he can be contacted there: < http://www.ebay.com/itm/Crinum-Catherine-Flowering-Sized-Bulb-/131420325569?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item1e994306c1 > Best wishes, Ellen On Thu, Mar 12, 2015 at 12:22 PM, Jane McGary wrote: > A publisher's staff member has contacted me via the website asking for > permission to publish a photo contributed to the wiki by former PBS member > Jay Yourch. If anyone has his current contact address, please write to me > privately so I can put the editor in touch with him. > > Thanks, > Jane McGary > Membership Coordinator, PBS > > _______________________________________________ > pbs mailing list > pbs@lists.ibiblio.org > http://pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php > http://pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki > -- Ellen Hornig 212 Grafton St Shrewsbury MA 01545 From enoster@hotmail.com Thu, 12 Mar 2015 18:17:04 -0700 Message-Id: From: Travis O Subject: Erythronium seed dispersal Date: Thu, 12 Mar 2015 17:44:40 -0700 Hi, Has everyone who reads the SRGC Bulb Log seen Ian's chapters on Erythronium? It's awesome. I most appreciate how it is based almost entirely on direct observation and experience. The chapter on seeds [1] was good, but it raised an interesting question in my mind. Ian noted how the seeds of European species have fleshy attachments to entice ants or other insects to disperse the seeds. Erythronium's from Western North America remain in the dried pod atop the dried scape, which he presume is for mechanical seed dispersal by wind or spilling out next to the plant. I live amongst Erythronium hendersonii, and it seems like some of the plants just could not possibly be where they are by mechanical means alone. I suspect birds may play a role in dispersing the seeds. Many of the plants I see grow under shrubs and trees, some under lone trees many tens of yards from other individuals. These shrubs and trees, Ceanothus, Arctostaphylos, Madrona, Quercus, and many conifers, are prime hang-out for birds, so it's not a stretch to think they could be "planting" the seeds (complete with fertilizer) underneath. Does anyone have any thoughts on this? [1] http://www.srgc.org.uk/logs/index.php?log=bulb -Travis Owen Rogue River, OR http://amateuranthecologist.blogspot.com/ From voltaire@islandnet.com Thu, 12 Mar 2015 19:17:04 -0700 Message-Id: <147D71A1-B0FB-4AEF-B469-371F9CE2F06A@islandnet.com> From: Don/Diane Subject: Erythronium seed dispersal Date: Thu, 12 Mar 2015 18:28:01 -0700 On 2015-03-12, at 5:44 PM, Travis O wrote: > > I live amongst Erythronium hendersonii, and it seems like some of the plants just could not possibly be where they are by mechanical means alone. I suspect birds may play a role in dispersing the seeds. Many of the plants I see grow under shrubs and trees, some under lone trees many tens of yards from other individuals. When I am in an area with ripe seeds, I spread them around to suitable areas nearby that are lacking the target plant. Maybe other people do that, too. Diane Whitehead Victoria, British Columbia, Canada From 369427344@qq.com Fri, 13 Mar 2015 03:17:05 -0700 Message-Id: From: "=?utf-8?B?6Iqx6K+t?=" <369427344@qq.com> Subject: I want Gethyllis seeds Date: Fri, 13 Mar 2015 17:08:23 +0800 Dear Sir If you have Gethyllis seeds ,ir know who have the seeds,please inform me!!! Thanks Chenchao China‍ _______________________________________________ pbs mailing list pbs@lists.ibiblio.org http://pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php http://pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki From enoster@hotmail.com Sat, 14 Mar 2015 13:17:03 -0700 Message-Id: From: Travis O Subject: Identifying Chionodoxa Date: Sat, 14 Mar 2015 12:49:26 -0700 How is it done? I would like to attempt to identify the plants I grow, because I do not trust the names they were sold under. Many descriptions of the different species rely heavily on color and flower size, very subjective traits. I would like to know if the species were originally described as having more clearly visible differences (perhaps with a hand lense?) like the shape of the anthers or leaf differences or something. Differences in bulb characteristics? Seed shape? Can anyone explain this to me or point me to a paper explaining such day or night details? I grow, to my knowledge, C. forbesii, C. lucilliae, and C. sardensis, as well as a few pink and white forms (possibly C. forbesii?). Thanks! -Travis Owen Rogue River, OR http://amateuranthecologist.blogspot.com/ From stnalpsoel@gmail.com Sun, 15 Mar 2015 00:17:05 -0700 Message-Id: From: Leo Martin Subject: Hesperantha vaginata Date: Sat, 14 Mar 2015 23:33:29 -0700 My plant did not return the 2012-13 growing season, nor 13-14. I was sad, partly because it is such a beautiful flower, and partly because this was one of the first bulbs I raised from seed in the late 1990s. It was the sole survivor of its cohort. I use a fully mineral potting mix, and I have no problems with rot, ever. So, I have no qualms about reusing mix. In the spring of 2014 I emptied the Hesperantha container and looked through it for signs of a corm. I saw none. I reused the soil in a batch of seedling containers. This season, an identified mature bulb grew in a seedling container. I have not grown enough bulbs to recognize most genera by their foliage. The unknown fattened its base, then pushed up a flower spike. By Friday, it was clear to me what it was, because just the petal tips emerged with their characteristic blackish brown sheen. The first flower opened Saturday afternoon. It was my H. vaginata. The black spots are variable in this species, and individual plants can be identified from year to year by the black patterning. The other seedlings never sprouted. Leo Martin Zone ? Phoenix Arizona USA From pbs@lists.ibiblio.org Sun, 15 Mar 2015 06:17:05 -0700 Message-Id: <14c1d86ece5-5bcd-ae0b@webprd-m49.mail.aol.com> From: Ernie DeMarie via pbs Subject: Hesperantha vaginata Date: Sun, 15 Mar 2015 09:02:04 -0400 Hi Leo, Guess this is just another example of why one should not be too hasty to throw out pots of ungerminated seed (or recycle the soil after you've waited a couple of years. Rock gardeners know this well, colchicums are reputed to be notorious for germinating years after planting. Glad you got H. vaginata back in your collection, who knows maybe another one will decide to sprout next fall. Ernie DeMarie NY Where I did see winter aconites blooming at the end of the week in my school garden as the snow slowly recedes. From jamesamckenney@verizon.net Sun, 15 Mar 2015 08:17:03 -0700 Message-Id: <2076199278.555500.1426431586895.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> From: Jim McKenney Subject: Spring is here Date: Sun, 15 Mar 2015 14:59:46 +0000 (UTC) Spring finally arrived here this week: daily temperature readings were in the 50-60 degree F range, nighttime lows remained above freezing, and at the end of the week there was slow rain. On Monday there were winter jasmine, witch hazels, snowdrops and the first tommies; by Wednesday the winter aconites appeared overnight. A few star magnolia buds are just showing color. Mornings are now vibrant with bird song. Yesterday evening local wetlands were booming with the calling of peepers and wood frogs. That for me is the real sign of spring.  Jim McKenneyMontgomery County, Maryland, USA, USDA zone 7, where I probably won't be closing the cold frames much in the near future. _______________________________________________ pbs mailing list pbs@lists.ibiblio.org http://pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php http://pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki From enoster@hotmail.com Sun, 15 Mar 2015 09:17:03 -0700 Message-Id: From: Travis O Subject: Erythronium seed dispersal Date: Sun, 15 Mar 2015 08:28:04 -0700 "When I am in an area with ripe seeds, I spread them around to suitable areas nearby that are lacking the target plant. Maybe other people do that, too." Diane Whitehead Victoria, British Columbia, Canada Diane, I doubt it is the case here. Seedlings of Erythronium and Dichelostemma show up everywhere, but especially in deep shade under trees where not so many plants reach blooming size. Not really the most suitable planting areas, but suitable enough to germinate the seeds I suppose. -Travis Owen Rogue River, OR http://amateuranthecologist.blogspot.com/ From Ake.Nordstrom@slu.se Sun, 15 Mar 2015 11:17:03 -0700 Message-Id: <8d792c7c480c44f2b05bf2431f986cb1@Exch2-3.slu.se> From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?=C5ke_Nordstr=F6m?= Subject: Erythronium seed dispersal Date: Sun, 15 Mar 2015 17:22:11 +0000 Hi all!! I have been following the discussions here for more than a year now, learning new and interesting things all the time. So far I haven't contributed with anything and perhaps I'm wrong in this, but one thing that we see rather often in my home areas (northern Sweden)is that voles are harvesting seeds of different plant species, often hiding them underneath or at the base of tree trunks or between roots. Sometimes these stored seeds are forgotten or not used, resulting in a lot of seedlings coming up in a very dense and "unnatural" looking way. I don't know if this could be the case here, but I guess that you have some rodents in the area that act in a similar way as the voles do in Europe? Åke Nordstrom, in north of Sweden, still with 100% snow cower on the ground ; ( -----Original Message----- From: pbs [mailto:pbs-bounces@lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf Of Travis O Sent: den 13 mars 2015 01:45 To: pbs@lists.ibiblio.org Subject: [pbs] Erythronium seed dispersal Hi, Has everyone who reads the SRGC Bulb Log seen Ian's chapters on Erythronium? It's awesome. I most appreciate how it is based almost entirely on direct observation and experience. The chapter on seeds [1] was good, but it raised an interesting question in my mind. Ian noted how the seeds of European species have fleshy attachments to entice ants or other insects to disperse the seeds. Erythronium's from Western North America remain in the dried pod atop the dried scape, which he presume is for mechanical seed dispersal by wind or spilling out next to the plant. I live amongst Erythronium hendersonii, and it seems like some of the plants just could not possibly be where they are by mechanical means alone. I suspect birds may play a role in dispersing the seeds. Many of the plants I see grow under shrubs and trees, some under lone trees many tens of yards from other individuals. These shrubs and trees, Ceanothus, Arctostaphylos, Madrona, Quercus, and many conifers, are prime hang-out for birds, so it's not a stretch to think they could be "planting" the seeds (complete with fertilizer) underneath. Does anyone have any thoughts on this? [1] http://www.srgc.org.uk/logs/index.php?log=bulb -Travis Owen Rogue River, OR http://amateuranthecologist.blogspot.com/ From janemcgary@earthlink.net Sun, 15 Mar 2015 11:17:03 -0700 Message-Id: From: Jane McGary Subject: Erythronium seed dispersal Date: Sun, 15 Mar 2015 10:53:03 -0700 A few years ago, when I was editing the NARGS journal Rock Garden Quarterly, I received an extremely detailed article about Erythronium seed dispersal, much of which we published. It should be available on the NARGS website. The article is in vol. 65, p. 265. The gist, for this current discussion, is that western American Erythronium species have seed dispersal by ants. As I recall, this process is called "myrmecophory." As Travis wrote, some Erythronium species in the wild, especially in the Pacific Northwest, occur as scattered populations of individual plants, presumably by seeding. I also observed this in colonies of Erythronium japonicum in Japan. In moist woodland in the American west and apparently in the UK, Erythronium revolutum is particularly happy to spread in this way. By contrast, commercial Erythronium hybrids such as 'Citronella' and 'Pagoda' have been selected for heavy offsetting of bulbs, a characteristic apparently derived from the narrow endemic Erythronium tuolumnense (a name I bet gets mangled in pronunciation; in the anglicized version of the Native American name Tuolumne, the stress accent is on the "o" and the first "e", and the "n" is elided). From pbs@lists.ibiblio.org Sun, 15 Mar 2015 13:17:03 -0700 Message-Id: <14c1ee12e34-445b-c4ba@webprd-m59.mail.aol.com> From: Ernie DeMarie via pbs Subject: Spring is here Date: Sun, 15 Mar 2015 15:20:16 -0400 Well I think we are getting closer but so far other than the winter aconites at school, I did see a witch hazel in bloom at Wave Hill garden in the Bronx this morning. Snow is receding faster, it is apparent the voles were as usual favored by the long period of snow cover, but so too were things like certain delospermas and other low growing plants. It rained heavily yesterday then got very foggy, today is very windy and cold but above freezing. Should be sunny and warmer tomorrow, maybe 50 but accuweather has a story about the cold front (fomer "polar vortexes") coming down on us again but of course the cold will not be so severe, just cooler than normal for March at times. Really would like to break out of this pattern it gets old fast. Inside the bulbs don't know the difference, various Oxalis obtusa clones are flowering along with some pelargonium species and a smattering of other bulbs like the red form of Babiana villosa. Ernie in NY watching the flag by the house across the street fly in the wind. From jwickham@sbcglobal.net Sun, 15 Mar 2015 13:17:03 -0700 Message-Id: <1426448393.88978.YahooMailNeo@web185301.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> From: John Wickham Subject: Spring is here Date: Sun, 15 Mar 2015 12:39:53 -0700 Sorry to rub it in if it seems like that, but we've had one long summer since about 2013 here in the Los Angeles area. The equivalent of spring was maybe two days back in late February. As a result, most of my bulbs are finishing up their bloom. Ferraria, Gladiolus, Moraea, Lachenalia, Albuca, Ixia, Babiana, Tritonia, Freesia, Ornithogalum, etc. The Eucomis are pushing leaves now and will probably be in bloom next month, things are so screwed up. We're again at about a third of average rainfall, and mountain snows (our water bank) are at about 10-15% of normal. So we're in bad shape...hard to explain and even understand how nice warm weather is a troublesome thing, yet it is. The flowers are pretty, though. John Wickham Los Angeles On Sunday, March 15, 2015 12:20 PM, Ernie DeMarie via pbs wrote: Well I think we are getting closer but so far other than the winter aconites at school, I did see a witch hazel in bloom at Wave Hill garden in the Bronx this morning. Snow is receding faster, it is apparent the voles were as usual favored by the long period of snow cover, but so too were things like certain delospermas and other low growing plants. It rained heavily yesterday then got very foggy, today is very windy and cold but above freezing. Should be sunny and warmer tomorrow, maybe 50 but accuweather has a story about the cold front (fomer "polar vortexes") coming down on us again but of course the cold will not be so severe, just cooler than normal for March at times. Really would like to break out of this pattern it gets old fast. Inside the bulbs don't know the difference, various Oxalis obtusa clones are flowering along with some pelargonium species and a smattering of other bulbs like the red form of Babiana villosa. Ernie in NY watching the flag by the house across the street fly in the wind. From janemcgary@earthlink.net Sun, 15 Mar 2015 14:17:03 -0700 Message-Id: From: Jane McGary Subject: Stormproof bulbs Date: Sun, 15 Mar 2015 14:01:07 -0700 After a remarkably dry, warm winter (the jet stream stole our weather and took it to the other side of the Rocky Mountains), this weekend we in western Oregon have seen heavy rain and high wind. (It's still warm.) I went out to see how the front garden is doing just now, before hastening indoors for fear a large Douglas fir would fall over on me, and noticed how well the flowering bulbs are standing up to it. The first that caught my eye was Iris bucharica, bright yellow flowers cheerfully upright and open atop a gravelly berm. In the same area I noticed Narcissus rupicola, Narcissus alpestris (I think; it came as N. moschatus), and a couple of taller Narcissus species. Erythronium grandiflorum and a neighboring geophyte, Dodecatheon clevelandii, stood up too. Muscari species are completely stormproof with their stout stems and little nodding florets, and not all of them are aggressive. In the flat part of the garden Erythronium hendersonii looks good, as do the delicate-appearing flowers of Corydalis 'Beth Evans'. Early Ranunculus and Anemone species close up a little in the dim light but seem undamaged, including Anemone blanda, Anemone nemorosa, Anemone palmata, Anemone appenina, and a couple of the mild-mannered Ranunculus ficaria double forms. Still in bud but well supported by their tall stems are Notholirion thomsonianum, Fritillaria amana, and Fritillaria acmopetala. Over in the bulb lawn the grass is helping support its later bloomers, such as Narcissus calcicola (don't be shocked; it got there as random seedlings) and low-growing Ornithogalum species that flower close to the ground. A little berm above that feature is displaying several Dodecatheon species from the Pacific Northwest. In the border many Fritillaria meleagris are up far enough to be raising their opening flowers; you will see that many Fritillaria species keep their stems bent over near ground level until on the point of opening, which may be a way of avoiding grazing animals. And across the road frontage, a lot of cheap daffodils are still standing, except for 'Cheerfulness', a double that I had to cut for the house. It's nice to know that however refined our plants may look, they have evolved resistance to the storms of spring. Jane McGary Portland, Oregon, USA From robin@no1bird.net Mon, 16 Mar 2015 17:17:03 -0700 Message-Id: <5505F6DC.1000808@no1bird.net> From: Robin Subject: Stormproof bulbs Date: Sun, 15 Mar 2015 17:17:16 -0400 showoff! On 3/15/2015 5:01 PM, Jane McGary wrote: > After a remarkably dry, warm winter (the jet stream stole our weather > and took it to the other side of the Rocky Mountains), this weekend we > in western Oregon have seen heavy rain and high wind. (It's still > warm.) I went out to see how the front garden is doing just now, > before hastening indoors for fear a large Douglas fir would fall over > on me, and noticed how well the flowering bulbs are standing up to it. > > The first that caught my eye was Iris bucharica, bright yellow flowers > cheerfully upright and open atop a gravelly berm. In the same area I > noticed Narcissus rupicola, Narcissus alpestris (I think; it came as > N. moschatus), and a couple of taller Narcissus species. Erythronium > grandiflorum and a neighboring geophyte, Dodecatheon clevelandii, > stood up too. Muscari species are completely stormproof with their > stout stems and little nodding florets, and not all of them are > aggressive. In the flat part of the garden Erythronium hendersonii > looks good, as do the delicate-appearing flowers of Corydalis 'Beth > Evans'. Early Ranunculus and Anemone species close up a little in the > dim light but seem undamaged, including Anemone blanda, Anemone > nemorosa, Anemone palmata, Anemone appenina, and a couple of the > mild-mannered Ranunculus ficaria double forms. Still in bud but well > supported by their tall stems are Notholirion thomsonianum, > Fritillaria amana, and Fritillaria acmopetala. Over in the bulb lawn > the grass is helping support its later bloomers, such as Narcissus > calcicola (don't be shocked; it got there as random seedlings) and > low-growing Ornithogalum species that flower close to the ground. A > little berm above that feature is displaying several Dodecatheon > species from the Pacific Northwest. In the border many Fritillaria > meleagris are up far enough to be raising their opening flowers; you > will see that many Fritillaria species keep their stems bent over near > ground level until on the point of opening, which may be a way of > avoiding grazing animals. And across the road frontage, a lot of > cheap daffodils are still standing, except for 'Cheerfulness', a > double that I had to cut for the house. > > It's nice to know that however refined our plants may look, they have > evolved resistance to the storms of spring. > > Jane McGary > Portland, Oregon, USA > > > _______________________________________________ > pbs mailing list > pbs@lists.ibiblio.org > http://pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php > http://pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki From robin@no1bird.net Sun, 15 Mar 2015 23:17:05 -0700 Message-Id: <5505F84B.7080606@no1bird.net> From: Robin Subject: Spring is here Date: Sun, 15 Mar 2015 17:23:23 -0400 come down to beaufort, sc. beautiful here and 77degrees. On 3/15/2015 3:20 PM, Ernie DeMarie via pbs wrote: > Well I think we are getting closer but so far other than the winter aconites at school, I did see a witch hazel in bloom at Wave Hill garden in the Bronx this morning. Snow is receding faster, it is apparent the voles were as usual favored by the long period of snow cover, but so too were things like certain delospermas and other low growing plants. It rained heavily yesterday then got very foggy, today is very windy and cold but above freezing. Should be sunny and warmer tomorrow, maybe 50 but accuweather has a story about the cold front (fomer "polar vortexes") coming down on us again but of course the cold will not be so severe, just cooler than normal for March at times. Really would like to break out of this pattern it gets old fast. > Inside the bulbs don't know the difference, various Oxalis obtusa clones are flowering along with some pelargonium species and a smattering of other bulbs like the red form of Babiana villosa. > Ernie in NY watching the flag by the house across the street fly in the wind. > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > pbs mailing list > pbs@lists.ibiblio.org > http://pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php > http://pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki From enoster@hotmail.com Sun, 15 Mar 2015 15:17:04 -0700 Message-Id: From: Travis O Subject: Nocturnal floral visitors of bulbs Date: Sun, 15 Mar 2015 14:45:09 -0700 Hello, Last week I went out into the garden at night with camera and flashlight. I photographed some insects nectaring or feeding on the pollen of some bulbs and put the pics on my blog. See here:http://amateuranthecologist.blogspot.com/2015/03/nocturnal-floral-visitors.html I am hesitant to call them "pollinators" because they may not be effectively serving as such. Instead, I refer to insects who imbibe nectar or eat pollen or other floral resources as "floral visitors". Floral visitors may also be attracted to flowers, of Narcissus for example, for the shelter or warmth. Hope everyone is doing well, and I hope the snow is thawing in the East! -Travis OwenRogue River, OR From plantsman@comcast.net Sun, 15 Mar 2015 16:17:05 -0700 Message-Id: <20150315222615.23F8220FD5@lists.ibiblio.org> From: Nathan Lange Subject: Erythronium seed dispersal Date: Sun, 15 Mar 2015 15:26:12 -0700 The previously cited NARGS article discusses the seed dispersal by ants of Erythronium species from Eastern North America. Here are a couple of descriptions of the Erythronium species from Western North America in the same article: https://www.nargs.org/sites/default/files/free-rgq-downloads/VOL_65_NO_3.pdf "Western American species have seeds that are not ant-distributed and remain viable during dry periods." E. revolutum is listed as an example of such a species. "The Erythronium species of western North America have their own, distinct method of dispersing their seeds. Their firm-walled, cup-shaped seed capsules are held erect on tall, wiry stems, and when they are shaken by wind or a passing animal, the seeds are hurled out as from a catapult. Not only the capsules but also the seeds of western species are adapted to the catapult method of seed dispersal. The seeds often must remain in the capsules for weeks or even months, waiting for the powerful shake that will hurl them forth." The above statements are completely consistent with years of observations I have made of most Western N.A. Erythronium species native to California, both cultivated and growing in the wild. When observing small populations of any plant species in the wild, separated by what might presently seem to be insurmountable barriers to seed dispersion, always keep in mind that your observation is but one moment in time. What now appears to be individual shrubs and trees separated by great distances, could have very recently (within a few hundred years or less) been a much more continuous canopy of, for example, chaparral or something else, with an equally continuous population of Erythronium growing underneath. In a similar situation, it would be like finding Dichelostemma volubile growing under old growth chaparral in California and incorrectly concluding that this species only grows in shade, not realizing this species also frequently grows in full sun (and very well) during the years immediately following a summer wild fire. Understanding the ecology of any plant is often key to knowing its life history. Or, maybe some seeds just hitched a ride on some passing animal, although a 1995 paper on Erythronium grandiflorum seed dispersal, another Western N.A. species, found ant and animal seed dispersal to be completely insignificant for this species. Regardless, many of the lower elevation California Erythronium species are in full flower right now and they are spectacular. Nathan At 10:53 AM 3/15/2015, you wrote: >A few years ago, when I was editing the NARGS journal Rock Garden >Quarterly, I received an extremely detailed article about >Erythronium seed dispersal, much of which we published. It should be >available on the NARGS website. The article is in vol. 65, p. 265. > >The gist, for this current discussion, is that western American >Erythronium species have seed dispersal by ants. As I recall, this >process is called "myrmecophory." > >As Travis wrote, some Erythronium species in the wild, especially in >the Pacific Northwest, occur as scattered populations of individual >plants, presumably by seeding. I also observed this in colonies of >Erythronium japonicum in Japan. In moist woodland in the American >west and apparently in the UK, Erythronium revolutum is particularly >happy to spread in this way. From jamesamckenney@verizon.net Sun, 15 Mar 2015 16:17:05 -0700 Message-Id: <1783324231.713489.1426459177803.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> From: Jim McKenney Subject: Stormproof bulbs Date: Sun, 15 Mar 2015 22:39:37 +0000 (UTC) Jane wrote: "In the border many Fritillaria meleagris are up far enough to be raising their opening  flowers; you will see that many Fritillaria species keep their stems  bent over near ground level until on the point of opening, " The first time I noticed this with Fritillaria meleagris in my garden I thought "So that's why it's sometimes called snake's head fritillary". The almost fully developed and chequered bud, when seen down almost on the ground, does have an ophidian quality to it. J`im McKenneyMontgomery County, Maryland, USA, USDA zone 7, where the first reticulate irises have joined the party today.  _______________________________________________ pbs mailing list pbs@lists.ibiblio.org http://pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php http://pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki From Miller7398@comcast.net Sun, 15 Mar 2015 21:17:04 -0700 Message-Id: <96D41BE22B4346338750FF016DDDBCF0@OwnerPC> From: "Joyce Miller" Subject: Growing parasitic plants, Date: Sun, 15 Mar 2015 20:22:16 -0700 Dear Kathleen, Thank you for your note on hemi-parasitic plants. Do do you know of a source for blue fescue seeds. T & M used to carry it but not now. Joyce Miller, Gresham, Oregon Castillejas (paintbrushes) are hemi-parasites; some years ago a method was developed to grow these species from seed: Sow fescue (grass) seeds over a flat of potting soil, grow the grass so that it is well established (3-6 months), then sow Castilleja seeds among the fescue plants. If you know broomrape hosts, you could try a similar method. From enoster@hotmail.com Sun, 15 Mar 2015 21:17:04 -0700 Message-Id: From: Travis O Subject: Nocturnal floral visitors of bulbs Date: Sun, 15 Mar 2015 20:52:28 -0700 Sorry, the link was merged with the text, here it is again: http://amateuranthecologist.blogspot.com/2015/03/nocturnal-floral-visitors.html -Travis Owen Rogue River, OR From enoster@hotmail.com Sun, 15 Mar 2015 21:17:04 -0700 Message-Id: From: Travis O Subject: Erythronium seed dispersal Date: Sun, 15 Mar 2015 21:01:29 -0700 Thank you, Nathan Lange, well spoken. I did not consider the longevity of Erythronium lifetimes. Anyone know how long an individual bulb can live? Longer than me, I'm sure. I posed the same question to the Native Plant Society of Oregon (NPSO, nice folks by the way) and received a similar answer. One response was that before the spread of invasive humans (like me) fire was common here. When a fire came through, removed brush and let light in, all the non-flowering individuals currently in deep shade would bloom. I did consider rodents as seed dispersal vectors, but birds seem more likely. An interesting study would test the ability of Western NA Erythronium seed to survive the digestive tract of a bird (a quick ride, I think). Anyone have any extra bird bile? -Travis Owen Rogue River, OR http://amateuranthecologist.blogspot.com/ From pbs@lists.ibiblio.org Mon, 16 Mar 2015 00:17:04 -0700 Message-Id: <14c21552a63-4b36-de62@webprd-a79.mail.aol.com> From: Andrew Lovell via pbs Subject: I want Gethyllis seeds Date: Mon, 16 Mar 2015 02:46:11 -0400 Hello... We do have some Gethyllis seeds...at present we have G spiralis and G villosa...and will have other species as they ripen/appear etc Also are for sale on Ebay as 'special-african-bulbs' Regards Andrew -----Original Message----- From: 花语 <369427344@qq.com> To: pbs Sent: Fri, Mar 13, 2015 11:16 am Subject: [pbs] I want Gethyllis seeds Dear Sir If you have Gethyllis seeds ,ir know who have the seeds,please inform me!!! Thanks Chenchao China‍ _______________________________________________ pbs mailing list pbs@lists.ibiblio.org http://pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php http://pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki _______________________________________________ pbs mailing list pbs@lists.ibiblio.org http://pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php http://pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki From pamela@polson.com Mon, 16 Mar 2015 08:17:06 -0700 Message-Id: From: Pamela Harlow Subject: Growing parasitic plants, Date: Mon, 16 Mar 2015 07:47:29 -0700 Jelitto seed offers blue fescue and many others. On Sun, Mar 15, 2015 at 8:22 PM, Joyce Miller wrote: > Dear Kathleen, > > Thank you for your note on hemi-parasitic plants. Do do you know of a > source for blue fescue seeds. T & M used to carry it but not now. > > Joyce Miller, Gresham, Oregon > > Castillejas (paintbrushes) are hemi-parasites; some years ago a method was > developed to grow these species from seed: Sow fescue (grass) seeds over a > flat of potting soil, grow the grass so that it is well established (3-6 > months), then sow Castilleja seeds among the fescue plants. If you know > broomrape hosts, you could try a similar method. > > _______________________________________________ > pbs mailing list > pbs@lists.ibiblio.org > http://pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php > http://pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki > From xerantheum@gmail.com Mon, 16 Mar 2015 09:17:04 -0700 Message-Id: From: Nhu Nguyen Subject: Call for applications for the 2015 MSI grant Date: Mon, 16 Mar 2015 10:47:33 -0500 Dear PBS members and supporters, The Mary Sue Ittner Grant for Bulb Studies provides monetary support for any geophyte related studies/projects. It is available to our members world-wide. This is a call for applications, which is due April 15, 2015. You may find the application and more details here : https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B7c4VKQCBjjlQ2QyalJVb0VxUkE/view?usp=sharing We hope to see some great applications this year! Sincerely, Nhu Nguyen PBS President From janemcgary@earthlink.net Mon, 16 Mar 2015 11:17:04 -0700 Message-Id: From: Jane McGary Subject: Erythronium seed dispersal Date: Mon, 16 Mar 2015 11:00:46 -0700 My apology for misremembering and misspelling some of the details of the Rock Garden Quarterly article on the above subject. I think that, given the nature of the author's correspondence, it must have been a case of traumatic repressed memory. The correct spelling of the term for ant dispersal is myrmecochory. The western American Erythronium species' seeds do not have elaiosomes. However, when one looks at a native population of them, they are rather evenly spread out in an area, so the seeds are being dispersed some distance from the parent plants by some mechanism. One correspondent suggested caching by voles; however, the presence of voles in this region often works against the presence of bulbs, which are a favorite food of the animals, and germination from vole or mouse caches is likely to produce close clusters of seedlings. Species flowering here today: Erythronium hendersonii, E. grandiflorum, E. oreganum, E. multiscapideum, E. citrinum. Jane McGary Portland, Oregon, USA From jamesamckenney@verizon.net Mon, 16 Mar 2015 17:17:03 -0700 Message-Id: <1824018064.276085.1426550878976.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> From: Jim McKenney Subject: Rant warning: myrmecophory/ myrmecochory; semiparasitic/hemiparasitic Date: Tue, 17 Mar 2015 00:07:58 +0000 (UTC) Jane wrote “Myapology for misremembering and misspelling some of the details of  the RockGarden Quarterly article on the above subject.” We haven’t had a good language rant for a while, so heregoes. As far as I’m concerned, Janedoes not owe an apology to anyone – certainly not to me or the many otherpeople who have used the word myrmecophory for decades.  In other recent posts, the word hemiparasitichas appeared. Picky about word usage as I sometimes am, I would not take anyoneto task for using semiparasitic instead of hemiparasitic. I’ve gotsomething to say about all of this. Let’s take a look at myrmecophory vs. myrmecochory first.These are so-called New Latin words. They did not exist in Classical Latin and,more to the point since they are formed from Classical Greek combining forms,they did not exist in Classical Greek. But, those Greek roots, however combined,do carry with them fragments of meaning. In the case of myrmecophory, thosemeanings are “ant” and “to carry”. In the case of myrmecochory, those meaningsare “ant” and “to dance” (think choreography). To be sure, their meaningsderive from the way they are used and not from the meanings of their componentparts. Thus, myrmycophory would be a good word to describe both a process whichcauses ants to be carried by something or just as well a process in which antscarry something. It’s my choice for the process in which ants distribute seeds. Myrmecochory  likewisemight be used for a type of dance in which the movements of ants are mimicked(in The Ballet of the Ants maybe) ,  orjust as well a process in which ants themselves dance something (the ant jig?).Since there is no law which prohibits scientists from using metaphor or a bitof poetic license, we don’t have to get too exercised about why this word wasput together this way. But when you know the etymology of the words in question,it seems to me that myrmecophory says it better than myrmecochory. In fact, when I see this word myrmecochory, I’m reminded ofone of my aunts squealing at the sight of ants dancing all over her peonyflowers. Now on to semiparasitic and hemiparasitic: when coining newplant names which are compound words made by putting together bits and pieces ofLatin or Greek, Botanists have long followed the rule that Latin is combinedwith Latin and Greek is combined with Greek; Latin and Greek should not becombined in the same word (this rule caused the metamorphosis of the Erythroniumspecies name multiscapoideum to multiscapideum; multiscapoideum was poor formbecause it combined Latin and Greek). Among the things which this rule does not make allowancesfor are the facts that, for one, Latin and Greek had a long history ofborrowing words one from the other. And since those languages used differentalphabets, all such borrowed words had to be respelled. In some old herbals theLatin and Greek forms of the words are given side by side, but since few peopleoutside of Greece read the Greek alphabet,  the Latin spellings wonout. Those Latin spellings did not arise out of the blue: the Latin spellingsof Greek words were phonetic spellings: i.e. to the Romans who used them, ifthe words were pronounced according to the rules for the pronunciation ofLatin, the resulting sound would come close to the sound of the Greek word fromwhich the Latinized form was derived. Since there were sounds in Greek whichLatin did not have, certain Latinized words sport creative spellings, and someof the ambiguities of the Latin alphabet (such as the letter s: does itrepresent an s sound or a z sound or did the Romans not make a distinction?)probably caused problems for the Greeks (Greek had both the s sound and the zsound and treated them as different sounds – different phonemes to betechnical). This worked well as long as people knew how to pronounceLatin. In the English speaking world, the prevailing style ofpronouncing Latin and Latinized Greek is several hundred years old (there is adetailed Wikipedia article on this if you are interested – or can’t get tosleep right away).  Scholars of Latin andGreek abandoned this system of pronunciation over a century ago. In otherwords, the system of pronunciation in general use for scientific names has notbeen used by those in the know for over a century. Imagine if someone gave a talk to your garden club and used the taxonomy of a century ago: everyone who knew modern taxonomy would be outraged. But no one stirs when pronunciations discredited a century ago are used.  So, while pronunciations have changed, the keepers of thegate have meticulously maintained the orthography (spelling). What the averageguy does not know is that those spellings are the Latin spellings, the phoneticspellings which enabled educated Romans to approximate the sound of Greek.Since the average guy does not know how to pronounce Latin (and there are noancient Greeks to correct him when the speaker gets to the Latinized Greekwords) , when he pronounces those words the sounds which come out are gobbledygook.Make that officially sanctioned gobbledygook. We live in the age of television. I mean the wordtelevision: when the word television was coined ( part Greek, part Latin) ashudder went through the world’s ivory towers. It was uncouth, it broke theprohibition against combining Latin and Greek in the same word. And to addinsult to injury, the English- speaking world embraced it and the freedom to combine Latin and Greek in the same word. Now back to semiparasite and hemiparasite. I grew up usingthe word semiparasite, as did everyone else I encountered who had need of sucha concept. My Webster’s Seventh (1963) has entries for both words. ClassicalLatin had  words derived from the Greekword for parasite, and Classical Latin used both the Greek derived hemi- andthe Latin semi-. However, if the word semiparasiticus or similar words wereused in Classical Latin, evidence of such usage does not survive. Nor doesevidence of a Classical Latin word hemiparasiticus survive. Furthermore, thestandard Greek-English lexicon does not show a Classical Greek wordcorresponding to hemiparasite.  That makesthese words hemiparasite and semiparasite New Latin: words coined in modern times to look like Latin or LatinizedGreek. To my sensibilities - and remember, I grew up in the post television(the word, not the device)  world – this wordhemiparasite has a holier-than-thou quality to it – it’s the sort of thing onewould expect of some lonely, underpublished academic still scratching forrecognition, still willing to apply the  rule –long obsolete in English -  of not combining Latin and Greek in the sameword. As a stylistic matter, it makes sense to use hemiparasiticus if one iswriting in Latin. But I’m not writing in Latin, I’m writing in English, and inmy English semiparasitic is still good form.  Jim McKenneyMontgomery County, Maryland, USA, USDA zone 7, where we've just come through a perfect early spring day with things popping up faster than I can keep up with them.  _______________________________________________ pbs mailing list pbs@lists.ibiblio.org http://pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php http://pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki From jamesamckenney@verizon.net Mon, 16 Mar 2015 18:17:07 -0700 Message-Id: <677963339.19878.1426551647205.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> From: Jim McKenney Subject: Stormproof bulbs Date: Tue, 17 Mar 2015 00:20:47 +0000 (UTC) Robin wrote "showoff!" in response to Jane's post.  Right. I loved the way she began by nibbling on humble pie and closed with the sort of spread one gets at the best local country inn. Brava Jane! _______________________________________________ pbs mailing list pbs@lists.ibiblio.org http://pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php http://pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki From penstemon@Q.com Mon, 16 Mar 2015 18:17:07 -0700 Message-Id: From: "penstemon" Subject: Rant warning: myrmecophory/ myrmecochory; semiparasitic/hemiparasitic Date: Mon, 16 Mar 2015 18:38:23 -0600 . In the case of myrmecochory, those meaningsare “ant” and “to dance” (think choreography). To be sure, their meanings derive from the way they are used and not from the meanings of their componentparts. Thus, myrmycophory would be a good word to describe both a process whichcauses ants to be carried by something or just as well a process in which antscarry something. It’s my choice for the process in which ants distribute seeds. The suffix –chory comes from the Greek khorein, to spread. The correct word is myrmecochory. Dispersal by wind, anemochory, by animals, zoochory, etc. Myrmecochory likewise might be used for a type of dance in which the movements of ants are mimicked(in The Ballet of the Ants maybe) , orjust as well a process in which ants themselves dance something (the ant jig?).Since there is no law which prohibits scientists from using metaphor or a bitof poetic license, we don’t have to get too exercised about why this word wasput together this way. But when you know the etymology of the words in question,it seems to me that myrmecophory says it better than myrmecochory. Deriving a meaning based on etymology, rather than common usage, is known as the etymological fallacy. An example of this might be to insist that a person offering an apology could not be sorry, since the word is derived from “sore”, not “sorrow”. Or that a wooden house could not be delapidated. Etc. Bob Nold Denver, Colorado, USA _______________________________________________ pbs mailing list pbs@lists.ibiblio.org http://pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php http://pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki From stnalpsoel@gmail.com Mon, 16 Mar 2015 18:17:07 -0700 Message-Id: From: Leo Martin Subject: Rant Date: Mon, 16 Mar 2015 18:02:58 -0700 > Imagine if someone gave a talk > to your garden club and used the > taxonomy of a century ago: > everyone who knew modern > taxonomy would be outraged. Not the other 99%. We came to hear the talk and not argue with the speaker. We still use the century-old taxonomy. We're not interested in wasting gardening time rewriting perfectly good labels. Leo Martin Zone ? Phoenix Arizona USA From stnalpsoel@gmail.com Mon, 16 Mar 2015 18:17:07 -0700 Message-Id: From: Leo Martin Subject: hemi Date: Mon, 16 Mar 2015 18:09:14 -0700 Relax. Everyone knows "Hemi" means the engine has a hemispherical combustion chamber. Fiat makes 'em. Leo Martin Zone ? Phoenix Arizona USA On Mar 16, 2015 5:22 PM, wrote: Send pbs mailing list submissions to pbs@lists.ibiblio.org To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to pbs-request@lists.ibiblio.org You can reach the person managing the list at pbs-owner@lists.ibiblio.org When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of pbs digest..." List-Post:<mailto:pbs@lists.ibiblio.org List-Archive:<http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php Today's Topics: 1. Re: Nocturnal floral visitors of bulbs (Travis O) 2. Re: Erythronium seed dispersal (Travis O) 3. Re: Spring is here (Robin) 4. Re: I want Gethyllis seeds (drewartistically@aol.com) 5. Re: Growing parasitic plants, (Pamela Harlow) 6. Call for applications for the 2015 MSI grant (Nhu Nguyen) 7. Erythronium seed dispersal (Jane McGary) 8. Rant warning: myrmecophory/ myrmecochory; semiparasitic/hemiparasitic (Jim McKenney) 9. Re: Stormproof bulbs (Robin) 10. Re: Stormproof bulbs (Jim McKenney) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Message: 1 Date: Sun, 15 Mar 2015 20:52:28 -0700 From: Travis O To: "pbs@lists.ibiblio.org" Subject: Re: [pbs] Nocturnal floral visitors of bulbs Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Sorry, the link was merged with the text, here it is again: http://amateuranthecologist.blogspot.com/2015/03/nocturnal-floral-visitors.html -Travis Owen Rogue River, OR ------------------------------ Message: 2 Date: Sun, 15 Mar 2015 21:01:29 -0700 From: Travis O To: "pbs@lists.ibiblio.org" Subject: Re: [pbs] Erythronium seed dispersal Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Thank you, Nathan Lange, well spoken. I did not consider the longevity of Erythronium lifetimes. Anyone know how long an individual bulb can live? Longer than me, I'm sure. I posed the same question to the Native Plant Society of Oregon (NPSO, nice folks by the way) and received a similar answer. One response was that before the spread of invasive humans (like me) fire was common here. When a fire came through, removed brush and let light in, all the non-flowering individuals currently in deep shade would bloom. I did consider rodents as seed dispersal vectors, but birds seem more likely. An interesting study would test the ability of Western NA Erythronium seed to survive the digestive tract of a bird (a quick ride, I think). Anyone have any extra bird bile? -Travis Owen Rogue River, OR http://amateuranthecologist.blogspot.com/ ------------------------------ Message: 3 Date: Sun, 15 Mar 2015 17:23:23 -0400 From: Robin To: Pacific Bulb Society Subject: Re: [pbs] Spring is here Message-ID: <5505F84B.7080606@no1bird.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed come down to beaufort, sc. beautiful here and 77degrees. On 3/15/2015 3:20 PM, Ernie DeMarie via pbs wrote: > Well I think we are getting closer but so far other than the winter aconites at school, I did see a witch hazel in bloom at Wave Hill garden in the Bronx this morning. Snow is receding faster, it is apparent the voles were as usual favored by the long period of snow cover, but so too were things like certain delospermas and other low growing plants. It rained heavily yesterday then got very foggy, today is very windy and cold but above freezing. Should be sunny and warmer tomorrow, maybe 50 but accuweather has a story about the cold front (fomer "polar vortexes") coming down on us again but of course the cold will not be so severe, just cooler than normal for March at times. Really would like to break out of this pattern it gets old fast. > Inside the bulbs don't know the difference, various Oxalis obtusa clones are flowering along with some pelargonium species and a smattering of other bulbs like the red form of Babiana villosa. > Ernie in NY watching the flag by the house across the street fly in the wind. > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > pbs mailing list > pbs@lists.ibiblio.org > http://pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php > http://pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki ------------------------------ Message: 4 Date: Mon, 16 Mar 2015 02:46:11 -0400 From: drewartistically@aol.com To: pbs@lists.ibiblio.org Subject: Re: [pbs] I want Gethyllis seeds Message-ID: <14c21552a63-4b36-de62@webprd-a79.mail.aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Hello... We do have some Gethyllis seeds...at present we have G spiralis and G villosa...and will have other species as they ripen/appear etc Also are for sale on Ebay as 'special-african-bulbs' Regards Andrew -----Original Message----- From: ?? <369427344@qq.com> To: pbs Sent: Fri, Mar 13, 2015 11:16 am Subject: [pbs] I want Gethyllis seeds Dear Sir If you have Gethyllis seeds ,ir know who have the seeds,please inform me!!! Thanks Chenchao China? _______________________________________________ pbs mailing list pbs@lists.ibiblio.org http://pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php http://pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki ------------------------------ Message: 5 Date: Mon, 16 Mar 2015 07:47:29 -0700 From: Pamela Harlow To: Pacific Bulb Society Subject: Re: [pbs] Growing parasitic plants, Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Jelitto seed offers blue fescue and many others. On Sun, Mar 15, 2015 at 8:22 PM, Joyce Miller wrote: > Dear Kathleen, > > Thank you for your note on hemi-parasitic plants. Do do you know of a > source for blue fescue seeds. T & M used to carry it but not now. > > Joyce Miller, Gresham, Oregon > > Castillejas (paintbrushes) are hemi-parasites; some years ago a method was > developed to grow these species from seed: Sow fescue (grass) seeds over a > flat of potting soil, grow the grass so that it is well established (3-6 > months), then sow Castilleja seeds among the fescue plants. If you know > broomrape hosts, you could try a similar method. > > _______________________________________________ > pbs mailing list > pbs@lists.ibiblio.org > http://pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php > http://pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki > ------------------------------ Message: 6 Date: Mon, 16 Mar 2015 10:47:33 -0500 From: Nhu Nguyen To: Pacific Bulb Society Subject: [pbs] Call for applications for the 2015 MSI grant Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Dear PBS members and supporters, The Mary Sue Ittner Grant for Bulb Studies provides monetary support for any geophyte related studies/projects. It is available to our members world-wide. This is a call for applications, which is due April 15, 2015. You may find the application and more details here < https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B7c4VKQCBjjlQ2QyalJVb0VxUkE/view?usp=sharing > : https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B7c4VKQCBjjlQ2QyalJVb0VxUkE/view?usp=sharing We hope to see some great applications this year! Sincerely, Nhu Nguyen PBS President ------------------------------ Message: 7 Date: Mon, 16 Mar 2015 11:00:46 -0700 From: Jane McGary To: Pacific Bulb Society Subject: [pbs] Erythronium seed dispersal Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed My apology for misremembering and misspelling some of the details of the Rock Garden Quarterly article on the above subject. I think that, given the nature of the author's correspondence, it must have been a case of traumatic repressed memory. The correct spelling of the term for ant dispersal is myrmecochory. The western American Erythronium species' seeds do not have elaiosomes. However, when one looks at a native population of them, they are rather evenly spread out in an area, so the seeds are being dispersed some distance from the parent plants by some mechanism. One correspondent suggested caching by voles; however, the presence of voles in this region often works against the presence of bulbs, which are a favorite food of the animals, and germination from vole or mouse caches is likely to produce close clusters of seedlings. Species flowering here today: Erythronium hendersonii, E. grandiflorum, E. oreganum, E. multiscapideum, E. citrinum. Jane McGary Portland, Oregon, USA ------------------------------ Message: 8 Date: Tue, 17 Mar 2015 00:07:58 +0000 (UTC) From: Jim McKenney To: Pacific Bulb Society Subject: [pbs] Rant warning: myrmecophory/ myrmecochory; semiparasitic/hemiparasitic Message-ID: <1824018064.276085.1426550878976.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Jane wrote ?Myapology for misremembering and misspelling some of the details of? the RockGarden Quarterly article on the above subject.? We haven?t had a good language rant for a while, so heregoes. As far as I?m concerned, Janedoes not owe an apology to anyone ? certainly not to me or the many otherpeople who have used the word myrmecophory for decades.? In other recent posts, the word hemiparasitichas appeared. Picky about word usage as I sometimes am, I would not take anyoneto task for using semiparasitic instead of hemiparasitic. I?ve gotsomething to say about all of this. Let?s take a look at myrmecophory vs. myrmecochory first.These are so-called New Latin words. They did not exist in Classical Latin and,more to the point since they are formed from Classical Greek combining forms,they did not exist in Classical Greek. But, those Greek roots, however combined,do carry with them fragments of meaning. In the case of myrmecophory, thosemeanings are ?ant? and ?to carry?. In the case of myrmecochory, those meaningsare ?ant? and ?to dance? (think choreography). To be sure, their meaningsderive from the way they are used and not from the meanings of their componentparts. Thus, myrmycophory would be a good word to describe both a process whichcauses ants to be carried by something or just as well a process in which antscarry something. It?s my choice for the process in which ants distribute seeds. Myrmecochory ?likewisemight be used for a type of dance in which the movements of ants are mimicked(in The Ballet of the Ants maybe) , ?orjust as well a process in which ants themselves dance something (the ant jig?).Since there is no law which prohibits scientists from using metaphor or a bitof poetic license, we don?t have to get too exercised about why this word wasput together this way. But when you know the etymology of the words in question,it seems to me that myrmecophory says it better than myrmecochory. In fact, when I see this word myrmecochory, I?m reminded ofone of my aunts squealing at the sight of ants dancing all over her peonyflowers. Now on to semiparasitic and hemiparasitic: when coining newplant names which are compound words made by putting together bits and pieces ofLatin or Greek, Botanists have long followed the rule that Latin is combinedwith Latin and Greek is combined with Greek; Latin and Greek should not becombined in the same word (this rule caused the metamorphosis of the Erythroniumspecies name multiscapoideum to multiscapideum; multiscapoideum was poor formbecause it combined Latin and Greek). Among the things which this rule does not make allowancesfor are the facts that, for one, Latin and Greek had a long history ofborrowing words one from the other. And since those languages used differentalphabets, all such borrowed words had to be respelled. In some old herbals theLatin and Greek forms of the words are given side by side, but since few peopleoutside of Greece read the Greek alphabet, ?the Latin spellings wonout. Those Latin spellings did not arise out of the blue: the Latin spellingsof Greek words were phonetic spellings: i.e. to the Romans who used them, ifthe words were pronounced according to the rules for the pronunciation ofLatin, the resulting sound would come close to the sound of the Greek word fromwhich the Latinized form was derived. Since there were sounds in Greek whichLatin did not have, certain Latinized words sport creative spellings, and someof the ambiguities of the Latin alphabet (such as the letter s: does itrepresent an s sound or a z soun d or did the Romans not make a distinction?)probably caused problems for the Greeks (Greek had both the s sound and the zsound and treated them as different sounds ? different phonemes to betechnical). This worked well as long as people knew how to pronounceLatin. In the English speaking world, the prevailing style ofpronouncing Latin and Latinized Greek is several hundred years old (there is adetailed Wikipedia article on this if you are interested ? or can?t get tosleep right away).? Scholars of Latin andGreek abandoned this system of pronunciation over a century ago. In otherwords, the system of pronunciation in general use for scientific names has notbeen used by those in the know for over a century. Imagine if someone gave a talk to your garden club and used the taxonomy of a century ago: everyone who knew modern taxonomy would be outraged. But no one stirs when pronunciations discredited a century ago are used.? So, while pronunciations have changed, the keepers of thegate have meticulously maintained the orthography (spelling). What the averageguy does not know is that those spellings are the Latin spellings, the phoneticspellings which enabled educated Romans to approximate the sound of Greek.Since the average guy does not know how to pronounce Latin (and there are noancient Greeks to correct him when the speaker gets to the Latinized Greekwords) , when he pronounces those words the sounds which come out are gobbledygook.Make that officially sanctioned gobbledygook. We live in the age of television. I mean the wordtelevision: when the word television was coined ( part Greek, part Latin) ashudder went through the world?s ivory towers. It was uncouth, it broke theprohibition against combining Latin and Greek in the same word. And to addinsult to injury, the English- speaking world embraced it and the freedom to combine Latin and Greek in the same word. Now back to semiparasite and hemiparasite. I grew up usingthe word semiparasite, as did everyone else I encountered who had need of sucha concept. My Webster?s Seventh (1963) has entries for both words. ClassicalLatin had ?words derived from the Greekword for parasite, and Classical Latin used both the Greek derived hemi- andthe Latin semi-. However, if the word semiparasiticus or similar words wereused in Classical Latin, evidence of such usage does not survive. Nor doesevidence of a Classical Latin word hemiparasiticus survive. Furthermore, thestandard Greek-English lexicon does not show a Classical Greek wordcorresponding to hemiparasite. ?That makesthese words hemiparasite and semiparasite?New Latin: words coined in modern times to look like Latin or LatinizedGreek. To my sensibilities - and remember, I grew up in the post television(the word, not the device) ?world ? this wordhemiparasite has a holier-than-thou quality to it ? it?s the sort of thing onewould expect of some lonely, underpublished academic still scratching forrecognition, still willing to apply the ?rule ?long obsolete in English - ?of not combining Latin and Greek in the sameword. As a stylistic matter, it makes sense to use hemiparasiticus if one iswriting in Latin. But I?m not writing in Latin, I?m writing in English, and inmy English semiparasitic is still good form.? Jim McKenneyMontgomery County, Maryland, USA, USDA zone 7, where we've just come through a perfect early spring day with things popping up faster than I can keep up with them.? ------------------------------ Message: 9 Date: Sun, 15 Mar 2015 17:17:16 -0400 From: Robin To: Pacific Bulb Society Subject: Re: [pbs] Stormproof bulbs Message-ID: <5505F6DC.1000808@no1bird.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed showoff! On 3/15/2015 5:01 PM, Jane McGary wrote: > After a remarkably dry, warm winter (the jet stream stole our weather > and took it to the other side of the Rocky Mountains), this weekend we > in western Oregon have seen heavy rain and high wind. (It's still > warm.) I went out to see how the front garden is doing just now, > before hastening indoors for fear a large Douglas fir would fall over > on me, and noticed how well the flowering bulbs are standing up to it. > > The first that caught my eye was Iris bucharica, bright yellow flowers > cheerfully upright and open atop a gravelly berm. In the same area I > noticed Narcissus rupicola, Narcissus alpestris (I think; it came as > N. moschatus), and a couple of taller Narcissus species. Erythronium > grandiflorum and a neighboring geophyte, Dodecatheon clevelandii, > stood up too. Muscari species are completely stormproof with their > stout stems and little nodding florets, and not all of them are > aggressive. In the flat part of the garden Erythronium hendersonii > looks good, as do the delicate-appearing flowers of Corydalis 'Beth > Evans'. Early Ranunculus and Anemone species close up a little in the > dim light but seem undamaged, including Anemone blanda, Anemone > nemorosa, Anemone palmata, Anemone appenina, and a couple of the > mild-mannered Ranunculus ficaria double forms. Still in bud but well > supported by their tall stems are Notholirion thomsonianum, > Fritillaria amana, and Fritillaria acmopetala. Over in the bulb lawn > the grass is helping support its later bloomers, such as Narcissus > calcicola (don't be shocked; it got there as random seedlings) and > low-growing Ornithogalum species that flower close to the ground. A > little berm above that feature is displaying several Dodecatheon > species from the Pacific Northwest. In the border many Fritillaria > meleagris are up far enough to be raising their opening flowers; you > will see that many Fritillaria species keep their stems bent over near > ground level until on the point of opening, which may be a way of > avoiding grazing animals. And across the road frontage, a lot of > cheap daffodils are still standing, except for 'Cheerfulness', a > double that I had to cut for the house. > > It's nice to know that however refined our plants may look, they have > evolved resistance to the storms of spring. > > Jane McGary > Portland, Oregon, USA > > > _______________________________________________ > pbs mailing list > pbs@lists.ibiblio.org > http://pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php > http://pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki ------------------------------ Message: 10 Date: Tue, 17 Mar 2015 00:20:47 +0000 (UTC) From: Jim McKenney To: Pacific Bulb Society Subject: Re: [pbs] Stormproof bulbs Message-ID: <677963339.19878.1426551647205.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Robin wrote "showoff!" in response to Jane's post.? Right. I loved the way she began by nibbling on humble pie and closed with the sort of spread one gets at the best local country inn.?Brava Jane! ------------------------------ Subject: Digest Footer _______________________________________________ pbs mailing list pbs@lists.ibiblio.org http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php ------------------------------ End of pbs Digest, Vol 146, Issue 10 ************************************ From penstemon@Q.com Mon, 16 Mar 2015 18:17:07 -0700 Message-Id: From: "penstemon" Subject: Rant Date: Mon, 16 Mar 2015 19:12:36 -0600 >We're not interested in wasting gardening time rewriting perfectly good labels. Speaking of labels, I think it’s high time someone started putting microchips in bulbs, in order to be able to locate the bulbs using modern technology, rather than with a very sharp trowel. Bob _______________________________________________ pbs mailing list pbs@lists.ibiblio.org http://pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php http://pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki From jamesamckenney@verizon.net Mon, 16 Mar 2015 19:17:03 -0700 Message-Id: <1517893042.313607.1426556070593.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> From: Jim McKenney Subject: Rant warning: myrmecophory/ myrmecochory; semiparasitic/hemiparasitic Date: Tue, 17 Mar 2015 01:34:30 +0000 (UTC) Bob, take a look at the wikipedia entry for myrmecochory: if your etymology is correct (and after taking a look at the entry in Liddell and Scott, I think it is), you have some editing opportunities waiting for you. Jim McKenney _______________________________________________ pbs mailing list pbs@lists.ibiblio.org http://pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php http://pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki From plantsman@comcast.net Mon, 16 Mar 2015 19:17:03 -0700 Message-Id: <20150317014547.9A08620CC3@lists.ibiblio.org> From: Nathan Lange Subject: Erythronium seed dispersal Date: Mon, 16 Mar 2015 18:41:46 -0700 Travis, A Google search of "Erythronium life-history" (without the quotes) finds a report suggesting that E. japonicum has a normal life expectancy of about 40 years: http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1442-1984.2005.00125.x/abstract This number could vary greatly between species. The previously mentioned 2007 NARGS Erythronium article contains some useful and interesting horticultural information but readers can easily be mislead into believing there are two acceptable "subgenera" of Erythronium which is not true. This article completely ignored the most relevant and recent literature available at the time, presumably because it contradicted the author's hypothesis: http://www.jstor.org/discover/10.2307/25063892?sid=21106134731023&uid=70&uid=3739256&uid=4&uid=2&uid=3739560&uid=2129 Nathan At 09:01 PM 3/15/2015, you wrote: >Anyone know how long an individual bulb can live? Longer than me, I'm sure. From plantsman@comcast.net Mon, 16 Mar 2015 19:17:03 -0700 Message-Id: <20150317014621.E72BF212F0@lists.ibiblio.org> From: Nathan Lange Subject: Erythronium fragrance Date: Mon, 16 Mar 2015 18:45:56 -0700 Jane, In your experience, what are the most/least fragrant species? E. multiscapideum and especially E. helenae seem particularly pleasant. Nathan At 11:00 AM 3/16/2015, you wrote: >Species flowering here today: Erythronium hendersonii, E. >grandiflorum, E. oreganum, E. multiscapideum, E. citrinum. > >Jane McGary >Portland, Oregon, USA From penstemon@Q.com Mon, 16 Mar 2015 19:17:03 -0700 Message-Id: <5D54F2C57BB74AB297CC4967FD7C7FE5@bobPC> From: "penstemon" Subject: Rant warning: myrmecophory/ myrmecochory; semiparasitic/hemiparasitic Date: Mon, 16 Mar 2015 19:54:48 -0600 Bob, take a look at the wikipedia entry for myrmecochory: if your etymology is correct (and after taking a look at the entry in Liddell and Scott, I think it is), you have some editing opportunities waiting for you. Life is too short to be editing Wikipedia. The New Shorter OED is simpler to use. Bob Nold Denver, Colorado, USA From stnalpsoel@gmail.com Mon, 16 Mar 2015 20:17:05 -0700 Message-Id: From: Leo Martin Subject: rant Date: Mon, 16 Mar 2015 19:19:21 -0700 We don't have a good idea how classical Greek was pronounced. Romans didn't, either. They wrote that. For that matter we don't know how Roman was pronounced, either. That's why Stearn's Botanical Latin counsels the best pronunciation is the one understood by the most people. Linguists brew up a lot of internally-consistent delusions so they can sleep better at night. Classical Greek pronunciation had been replaced by more modern pronunciations by the rise of the Roman empire. Leo Martin Zone ? Phoenix Arizona USA On Mar 16, 2015 5:22 PM, wrote: Send pbs mailing list submissions to pbs@lists.ibiblio.org To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to pbs-request@lists.ibiblio.org You can reach the person managing the list at pbs-owner@lists.ibiblio.org When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of pbs digest..." List-Post:<mailto:pbs@lists.ibiblio.org List-Archive:<http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php Today's Topics: 1. Re: Nocturnal floral visitors of bulbs (Travis O) 2. Re: Erythronium seed dispersal (Travis O) 3. Re: Spring is here (Robin) 4. Re: I want Gethyllis seeds (drewartistically@aol.com) 5. Re: Growing parasitic plants, (Pamela Harlow) 6. Call for applications for the 2015 MSI grant (Nhu Nguyen) 7. Erythronium seed dispersal (Jane McGary) 8. Rant warning: myrmecophory/ myrmecochory; semiparasitic/hemiparasitic (Jim McKenney) 9. Re: Stormproof bulbs (Robin) 10. Re: Stormproof bulbs (Jim McKenney) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Message: 1 Date: Sun, 15 Mar 2015 20:52:28 -0700 From: Travis O To: "pbs@lists.ibiblio.org" Subject: Re: [pbs] Nocturnal floral visitors of bulbs Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Sorry, the link was merged with the text, here it is again: http://amateuranthecologist.blogspot.com/2015/03/nocturnal-floral-visitors.html -Travis Owen Rogue River, OR ------------------------------ Message: 2 Date: Sun, 15 Mar 2015 21:01:29 -0700 From: Travis O To: "pbs@lists.ibiblio.org" Subject: Re: [pbs] Erythronium seed dispersal Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Thank you, Nathan Lange, well spoken. I did not consider the longevity of Erythronium lifetimes. Anyone know how long an individual bulb can live? Longer than me, I'm sure. I posed the same question to the Native Plant Society of Oregon (NPSO, nice folks by the way) and received a similar answer. One response was that before the spread of invasive humans (like me) fire was common here. When a fire came through, removed brush and let light in, all the non-flowering individuals currently in deep shade would bloom. I did consider rodents as seed dispersal vectors, but birds seem more likely. An interesting study would test the ability of Western NA Erythronium seed to survive the digestive tract of a bird (a quick ride, I think). Anyone have any extra bird bile? -Travis Owen Rogue River, OR http://amateuranthecologist.blogspot.com/ ------------------------------ Message: 3 Date: Sun, 15 Mar 2015 17:23:23 -0400 From: Robin To: Pacific Bulb Society Subject: Re: [pbs] Spring is here Message-ID: <5505F84B.7080606@no1bird.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed come down to beaufort, sc. beautiful here and 77degrees. On 3/15/2015 3:20 PM, Ernie DeMarie via pbs wrote: > Well I think we are getting closer but so far other than the winter aconites at school, I did see a witch hazel in bloom at Wave Hill garden in the Bronx this morning. Snow is receding faster, it is apparent the voles were as usual favored by the long period of snow cover, but so too were things like certain delospermas and other low growing plants. It rained heavily yesterday then got very foggy, today is very windy and cold but above freezing. Should be sunny and warmer tomorrow, maybe 50 but accuweather has a story about the cold front (fomer "polar vortexes") coming down on us again but of course the cold will not be so severe, just cooler than normal for March at times. Really would like to break out of this pattern it gets old fast. > Inside the bulbs don't know the difference, various Oxalis obtusa clones are flowering along with some pelargonium species and a smattering of other bulbs like the red form of Babiana villosa. > Ernie in NY watching the flag by the house across the street fly in the wind. > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > pbs mailing list > pbs@lists.ibiblio.org > http://pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php > http://pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki ------------------------------ Message: 4 Date: Mon, 16 Mar 2015 02:46:11 -0400 From: drewartistically@aol.com To: pbs@lists.ibiblio.org Subject: Re: [pbs] I want Gethyllis seeds Message-ID: <14c21552a63-4b36-de62@webprd-a79.mail.aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Hello... We do have some Gethyllis seeds...at present we have G spiralis and G villosa...and will have other species as they ripen/appear etc Also are for sale on Ebay as 'special-african-bulbs' Regards Andrew -----Original Message----- From: ?? <369427344@qq.com> To: pbs Sent: Fri, Mar 13, 2015 11:16 am Subject: [pbs] I want Gethyllis seeds Dear Sir If you have Gethyllis seeds ,ir know who have the seeds,please inform me!!! Thanks Chenchao China? _______________________________________________ pbs mailing list pbs@lists.ibiblio.org http://pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php http://pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki ------------------------------ Message: 5 Date: Mon, 16 Mar 2015 07:47:29 -0700 From: Pamela Harlow To: Pacific Bulb Society Subject: Re: [pbs] Growing parasitic plants, Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Jelitto seed offers blue fescue and many others. On Sun, Mar 15, 2015 at 8:22 PM, Joyce Miller wrote: > Dear Kathleen, > > Thank you for your note on hemi-parasitic plants. Do do you know of a > source for blue fescue seeds. T & M used to carry it but not now. > > Joyce Miller, Gresham, Oregon > > Castillejas (paintbrushes) are hemi-parasites; some years ago a method was > developed to grow these species from seed: Sow fescue (grass) seeds over a > flat of potting soil, grow the grass so that it is well established (3-6 > months), then sow Castilleja seeds among the fescue plants. If you know > broomrape hosts, you could try a similar method. > > _______________________________________________ > pbs mailing list > pbs@lists.ibiblio.org > http://pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php > http://pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki > ------------------------------ Message: 6 Date: Mon, 16 Mar 2015 10:47:33 -0500 From: Nhu Nguyen To: Pacific Bulb Society Subject: [pbs] Call for applications for the 2015 MSI grant Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Dear PBS members and supporters, The Mary Sue Ittner Grant for Bulb Studies provides monetary support for any geophyte related studies/projects. It is available to our members world-wide. This is a call for applications, which is due April 15, 2015. You may find the application and more details here < https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B7c4VKQCBjjlQ2QyalJVb0VxUkE/view?usp=sharing > : https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B7c4VKQCBjjlQ2QyalJVb0VxUkE/view?usp=sharing We hope to see some great applications this year! Sincerely, Nhu Nguyen PBS President ------------------------------ Message: 7 Date: Mon, 16 Mar 2015 11:00:46 -0700 From: Jane McGary To: Pacific Bulb Society Subject: [pbs] Erythronium seed dispersal Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed My apology for misremembering and misspelling some of the details of the Rock Garden Quarterly article on the above subject. I think that, given the nature of the author's correspondence, it must have been a case of traumatic repressed memory. The correct spelling of the term for ant dispersal is myrmecochory. The western American Erythronium species' seeds do not have elaiosomes. However, when one looks at a native population of them, they are rather evenly spread out in an area, so the seeds are being dispersed some distance from the parent plants by some mechanism. One correspondent suggested caching by voles; however, the presence of voles in this region often works against the presence of bulbs, which are a favorite food of the animals, and germination from vole or mouse caches is likely to produce close clusters of seedlings. Species flowering here today: Erythronium hendersonii, E. grandiflorum, E. oreganum, E. multiscapideum, E. citrinum. Jane McGary Portland, Oregon, USA ------------------------------ Message: 8 Date: Tue, 17 Mar 2015 00:07:58 +0000 (UTC) From: Jim McKenney To: Pacific Bulb Society Subject: [pbs] Rant warning: myrmecophory/ myrmecochory; semiparasitic/hemiparasitic Message-ID: <1824018064.276085.1426550878976.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Jane wrote ?Myapology for misremembering and misspelling some of the details of? the RockGarden Quarterly article on the above subject.? We haven?t had a good language rant for a while, so heregoes. As far as I?m concerned, Janedoes not owe an apology to anyone ? certainly not to me or the many otherpeople who have used the word myrmecophory for decades.? In other recent posts, the word hemiparasitichas appeared. Picky about word usage as I sometimes am, I would not take anyoneto task for using semiparasitic instead of hemiparasitic. I?ve gotsomething to say about all of this. Let?s take a look at myrmecophory vs. myrmecochory first.These are so-called New Latin words. They did not exist in Classical Latin and,more to the point since they are formed from Classical Greek combining forms,they did not exist in Classical Greek. But, those Greek roots, however combined,do carry with them fragments of meaning. In the case of myrmecophory, thosemeanings are ?ant? and ?to carry?. In the case of myrmecochory, those meaningsare ?ant? and ?to dance? (think choreography). To be sure, their meaningsderive from the way they are used and not from the meanings of their componentparts. Thus, myrmycophory would be a good word to describe both a process whichcauses ants to be carried by something or just as well a process in which antscarry something. It?s my choice for the process in which ants distribute seeds. Myrmecochory ?likewisemight be used for a type of dance in which the movements of ants are mimicked(in The Ballet of the Ants maybe) , ?orjust as well a process in which ants themselves dance something (the ant jig?).Since there is no law which prohibits scientists from using metaphor or a bitof poetic license, we don?t have to get too exercised about why this word wasput together this way. But when you know the etymology of the words in question,it seems to me that myrmecophory says it better than myrmecochory. In fact, when I see this word myrmecochory, I?m reminded ofone of my aunts squealing at the sight of ants dancing all over her peonyflowers. Now on to semiparasitic and hemiparasitic: when coining newplant names which are compound words made by putting together bits and pieces ofLatin or Greek, Botanists have long followed the rule that Latin is combinedwith Latin and Greek is combined with Greek; Latin and Greek should not becombined in the same word (this rule caused the metamorphosis of the Erythroniumspecies name multiscapoideum to multiscapideum; multiscapoideum was poor formbecause it combined Latin and Greek). Among the things which this rule does not make allowancesfor are the facts that, for one, Latin and Greek had a long history ofborrowing words one from the other. And since those languages used differentalphabets, all such borrowed words had to be respelled. In some old herbals theLatin and Greek forms of the words are given side by side, but since few peopleoutside of Greece read the Greek alphabet, ?the Latin spellings wonout. Those Latin spellings did not arise out of the blue: the Latin spellingsof Greek words were phonetic spellings: i.e. to the Romans who used them, ifthe words were pronounced according to the rules for the pronunciation ofLatin, the resulting sound would come close to the sound of the Greek word fromwhich the Latinized form was derived. Since there were sounds in Greek whichLatin did not have, certain Latinized words sport creative spellings, and someof the ambiguities of the Latin alphabet (such as the letter s: does itrepresent an s sound or a z soun d or did the Romans not make a distinction?)probably caused problems for the Greeks (Greek had both the s sound and the zsound and treated them as different sounds ? different phonemes to betechnical). This worked well as long as people knew how to pronounceLatin. In the English speaking world, the prevailing style ofpronouncing Latin and Latinized Greek is several hundred years old (there is adetailed Wikipedia article on this if you are interested ? or can?t get tosleep right away).? Scholars of Latin andGreek abandoned this system of pronunciation over a century ago. In otherwords, the system of pronunciation in general use for scientific names has notbeen used by those in the know for over a century. Imagine if someone gave a talk to your garden club and used the taxonomy of a century ago: everyone who knew modern taxonomy would be outraged. But no one stirs when pronunciations discredited a century ago are used.? So, while pronunciations have changed, the keepers of thegate have meticulously maintained the orthography (spelling). What the averageguy does not know is that those spellings are the Latin spellings, the phoneticspellings which enabled educated Romans to approximate the sound of Greek.Since the average guy does not know how to pronounce Latin (and there are noancient Greeks to correct him when the speaker gets to the Latinized Greekwords) , when he pronounces those words the sounds which come out are gobbledygook.Make that officially sanctioned gobbledygook. We live in the age of television. I mean the wordtelevision: when the word television was coined ( part Greek, part Latin) ashudder went through the world?s ivory towers. It was uncouth, it broke theprohibition against combining Latin and Greek in the same word. And to addinsult to injury, the English- speaking world embraced it and the freedom to combine Latin and Greek in the same word. Now back to semiparasite and hemiparasite. I grew up usingthe word semiparasite, as did everyone else I encountered who had need of sucha concept. My Webster?s Seventh (1963) has entries for both words. ClassicalLatin had ?words derived from the Greekword for parasite, and Classical Latin used both the Greek derived hemi- andthe Latin semi-. However, if the word semiparasiticus or similar words wereused in Classical Latin, evidence of such usage does not survive. Nor doesevidence of a Classical Latin word hemiparasiticus survive. Furthermore, thestandard Greek-English lexicon does not show a Classical Greek wordcorresponding to hemiparasite. ?That makesthese words hemiparasite and semiparasite?New Latin: words coined in modern times to look like Latin or LatinizedGreek. To my sensibilities - and remember, I grew up in the post television(the word, not the device) ?world ? this wordhemiparasite has a holier-than-thou quality to it ? it?s the sort of thing onewould expect of some lonely, underpublished academic still scratching forrecognition, still willing to apply the ?rule ?long obsolete in English - ?of not combining Latin and Greek in the sameword. As a stylistic matter, it makes sense to use hemiparasiticus if one iswriting in Latin. But I?m not writing in Latin, I?m writing in English, and inmy English semiparasitic is still good form.? Jim McKenneyMontgomery County, Maryland, USA, USDA zone 7, where we've just come through a perfect early spring day with things popping up faster than I can keep up with them.? ------------------------------ Message: 9 Date: Sun, 15 Mar 2015 17:17:16 -0400 From: Robin To: Pacific Bulb Society Subject: Re: [pbs] Stormproof bulbs Message-ID: <5505F6DC.1000808@no1bird.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed showoff! On 3/15/2015 5:01 PM, Jane McGary wrote: > After a remarkably dry, warm winter (the jet stream stole our weather > and took it to the other side of the Rocky Mountains), this weekend we > in western Oregon have seen heavy rain and high wind. (It's still > warm.) I went out to see how the front garden is doing just now, > before hastening indoors for fear a large Douglas fir would fall over > on me, and noticed how well the flowering bulbs are standing up to it. > > The first that caught my eye was Iris bucharica, bright yellow flowers > cheerfully upright and open atop a gravelly berm. In the same area I > noticed Narcissus rupicola, Narcissus alpestris (I think; it came as > N. moschatus), and a couple of taller Narcissus species. Erythronium > grandiflorum and a neighboring geophyte, Dodecatheon clevelandii, > stood up too. Muscari species are completely stormproof with their > stout stems and little nodding florets, and not all of them are > aggressive. In the flat part of the garden Erythronium hendersonii > looks good, as do the delicate-appearing flowers of Corydalis 'Beth > Evans'. Early Ranunculus and Anemone species close up a little in the > dim light but seem undamaged, including Anemone blanda, Anemone > nemorosa, Anemone palmata, Anemone appenina, and a couple of the > mild-mannered Ranunculus ficaria double forms. Still in bud but well > supported by their tall stems are Notholirion thomsonianum, > Fritillaria amana, and Fritillaria acmopetala. Over in the bulb lawn > the grass is helping support its later bloomers, such as Narcissus > calcicola (don't be shocked; it got there as random seedlings) and > low-growing Ornithogalum species that flower close to the ground. A > little berm above that feature is displaying several Dodecatheon > species from the Pacific Northwest. In the border many Fritillaria > meleagris are up far enough to be raising their opening flowers; you > will see that many Fritillaria species keep their stems bent over near > ground level until on the point of opening, which may be a way of > avoiding grazing animals. And across the road frontage, a lot of > cheap daffodils are still standing, except for 'Cheerfulness', a > double that I had to cut for the house. > > It's nice to know that however refined our plants may look, they have > evolved resistance to the storms of spring. > > Jane McGary > Portland, Oregon, USA > > > _______________________________________________ > pbs mailing list > pbs@lists.ibiblio.org > http://pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php > http://pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki ------------------------------ Message: 10 Date: Tue, 17 Mar 2015 00:20:47 +0000 (UTC) From: Jim McKenney To: Pacific Bulb Society Subject: Re: [pbs] Stormproof bulbs Message-ID: <677963339.19878.1426551647205.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Robin wrote "showoff!" in response to Jane's post.? Right. I loved the way she began by nibbling on humble pie and closed with the sort of spread one gets at the best local country inn.?Brava Jane! ------------------------------ Subject: Digest Footer _______________________________________________ pbs mailing list pbs@lists.ibiblio.org http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php ------------------------------ End of pbs Digest, Vol 146, Issue 10 ************************************ From stnalpsoel@gmail.com Mon, 16 Mar 2015 20:17:05 -0700 Message-Id: From: Leo Martin Subject: Microchips Date: Mon, 16 Mar 2015 19:22:25 -0700 > Speaking of labels, I think it?s > high time someone started putting > microchips in bulbs, in order to be > able to locate the bulbs using > modern technology, rather than > with a very sharp trowel. Squirrels have higher accuracy. Leo Martin Zone ? Phoenix Arizona USA From penstemon@Q.com Mon, 16 Mar 2015 20:17:05 -0700 Message-Id: <92748675318E406C89593D0780A67921@bobPC> From: "penstemon" Subject: Microchips Date: Mon, 16 Mar 2015 20:35:48 -0600 Squirrels have higher accuracy. Much less accurate than my trowel, however. I can slice through a bulb no matter how well it’s labeled. (I call it “subterranean twin-scaling”.) Another idea, and this one is at least hemi-serious, since I grow all my bulbs in the ground, would be some kind of computerized garden-mapping program so I could eliminate labels and yet be able to locate the bulbs accurately. I have a three-month-old border collie who thinks removing all the labels from the garden makes it look better. Bob Nold Denver, Colorado, USA _______________________________________________ pbs mailing list pbs@lists.ibiblio.org http://pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php http://pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki From willis@fred.net Mon, 16 Mar 2015 20:17:05 -0700 Message-Id: <74557669-5A3C-4F91-9A3C-CD904905B6FF@fred.net> From: John Willis Subject: A Nocturnal Puzzle Date: Mon, 16 Mar 2015 22:40:49 -0400 I've grown some pretty white flowers in the greenhouse that only open at night. This is probably something that some folks in the PBS are quite familiar with but it's new one for me. The seed came from the 2013 NARGS distribution and obviously don't correspond to the Babiana odorata label. I'd welcome a comment from someone who recognizes them. I've posted them at http://macgardens.org/?p=4460. Gardens get wilder every day … MacGardens _______________________________________________ pbs mailing list pbs@lists.ibiblio.org http://pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php http://pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki From penstemon@Q.com Mon, 16 Mar 2015 20:17:05 -0700 Message-Id: From: "penstemon" Subject: rant Date: Mon, 16 Mar 2015 20:52:39 -0600 >We don't have a good idea how classical Greek was pronounced. Romans >didn't, either. They wrote that. For that matter we don't know how Roman >was pronounced, either. To some degree, anyway, but we do know how the words were accented, through a study of prosody. And English has rules on pronunciation of words derived from the Greek, based on vowel quantity. So, for example, the name of the bulb, or tuber, which interests me the most right now is accented on the antepenultimate syllable, corYdalis. (This year I promise to try to take totally excellent pictures to upload to the Wiki.) Bob Nold Denver, Colorado, USA From msittner@mcn.org Mon, 16 Mar 2015 20:17:05 -0700 Message-Id: <20150317025731.AE7FB26C92@lists.ibiblio.org> From: Mary Sue Ittner Subject: A Nocturnal Puzzle Date: Mon, 16 Mar 2015 19:58:35 -0700 At 07:40 PM 3/16/2015, you wrote: >I've grown some pretty white flowers in the greenhouse that only >open at night. This is probably something that some folks in the >PBS are quite familiar with but it's new one for me. My guess is Hesperantha cucullata. Bring it indoors and see if it fills your house with fragrance. I once found three or four differently labeled seeds from seed exchanges once they bloomed were all this plant. Most, but not all were very fragrant at night. No fragrance during the day however. http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki/index.php/HesperanthaTwo#cucullata From macjohn@mac.com Mon, 16 Mar 2015 22:17:04 -0700 Message-Id: From: John Willis Subject: A Nocturnal Puzzle Date: Mon, 16 Mar 2015 23:24:17 -0400 Great suggestion. Mine seem to be a little more brown than red on the back side of the petals, but I guess that could be a variation. None of the other Hesperantha seem to fit. I will try it on the inside of the house tomorrow night. > On Mar 16, 2015, at 10:58 PM, Mary Sue Ittner wrote: > > At 07:40 PM 3/16/2015, you wrote: >> I've grown some pretty white flowers in the greenhouse that only open at night. This is probably something that some folks in the PBS are quite familiar with but it's new one for me. > > My guess is Hesperantha cucullata. Bring it indoors and see if it fills your house with fragrance. I once found three or four differently labeled seeds from seed exchanges once they bloomed were all this plant. Most, but not all were very fragrant at night. No fragrance during the day however. > http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki/index.php/HesperanthaTwo#cucullata > > > > _______________________________________________ > pbs mailing list > pbs@lists.ibiblio.org > http://pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php > http://pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki Gardens get wilder every day … MacGardens _______________________________________________ pbs mailing list pbs@lists.ibiblio.org http://pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php http://pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki From dkramb@badbear.com Mon, 16 Mar 2015 21:17:04 -0700 Message-Id: <5507A8BE.6000602@badbear.com> From: dkramb Subject: irids of the world Date: Tue, 17 Mar 2015 00:08:30 -0400 Are there any genera of Iridaceae other than Iris found in Asia or northern Europe? Pardanthopsis & Belamcanda have been absorbed into Iris. And I'm struggling to think of any other candidates. I'm especially thinking of Japan, Russia, China, India, Iran, Iraq, Korea, Vietnam, Thailand, Scandanavia, etc. Thanks, Dennis in Cincinnati From richrd@nas.com Mon, 16 Mar 2015 22:17:04 -0700 Message-Id: From: Richard Subject: Erythronium seedings Date: Mon, 16 Mar 2015 21:19:36 -0700 Emerging Erythronium grandiflorum and other seedlings (Iris tenax, Camassia spp, Fritillaria pudica) in seedbeds. Today. Nice stands developing. At 4CN, Bellingham, Wa., https://flic.kr/p/rnCzRZ From penstemon@Q.com Mon, 16 Mar 2015 22:17:04 -0700 Message-Id: From: "penstemon" Subject: irids of the world Date: Mon, 16 Mar 2015 22:21:57 -0600 Are there any genera of Iridaceae other than Iris found in Asia or northern Europe? Crocus? Bob Nold Denver, Colorado, USA From jwaddick@kc.rr.com Mon, 16 Mar 2015 22:17:04 -0700 Message-Id: <1C337910-48D1-48C8-A5D3-46E4A472BCC2@kc.rr.com> From: James Waddick Subject: Chionodoxa and irids of the world Date: Mon, 16 Mar 2015 23:37:51 -0500 Dear PBSers, I think I have a new record in number of deletes over pointless ranting. Meanwhile I don’t recall any one helping to ID species in the genus Chionodoxa. My go-to for cultivated bulbs is ‘The European Garden Flora’. Vol has a key to the six most commonly encountered species in the genus. These keys aren’t always easy to use and don’t always cover EVERY species, but I think this one is pretty good. Vol 1 P 214-215 Dennis surely you know that Google is your friend. And if not that there is always ‘World of the Iridaceae' by Innes. Fun to go through the pages and pictures. A newer look is The Iris Family: Natural History and Classification by Peter Goldblatt. Worth a look. Best Jim W. > > Are there any genera of Iridaceae other than Iris found in Asia or > northern Europe? James Waddick 8871 NW Brostrom Rd Kansas City, MO 64152-2711 USA Phone 816-746-1949 _______________________________________________ pbs mailing list pbs@lists.ibiblio.org http://pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php http://pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki From hartsentwine.australia@gmail.com Mon, 16 Mar 2015 22:17:04 -0700 Message-Id: From: Steven Hart Subject: Rant Date: Tue, 17 Mar 2015 14:46:04 +1000 Bob that's the idea of the century, I would love to dump all those yukky labels in the garden & scan my bulbs for location in the garden, name, date planted, location found etc.. It would be a fantastic adaption to the whole plant world. Steven On 17 March 2015 at 11:12, penstemon wrote Speaking of labels, I think it’s high time someone started putting microchips in bulbs, in order to be able to locate the bulbs using modern technology, rather than with a very sharp trowel. Bob > _______________________________________________ > pbs mailing list > pbs@lists.ibiblio.org > http://pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php > http://pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki > > -- > Steven : ) Esk Queensland Australia Summer Zone 5 Winter Zone 10 _______________________________________________ pbs mailing list pbs@lists.ibiblio.org http://pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php http://pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki From enoster@hotmail.com Mon, 16 Mar 2015 22:17:04 -0700 Message-Id: From: Travis O Subject: Erythronium seed dispersal Date: Mon, 16 Mar 2015 21:47:34 -0700 Nathan, this is fascinating! I'm starting to think that seed of Western NA species has a long life expectancy in a dormant state, being able to remain dormant for years in the soil seed bank until the conditions are right (fire?). I've heard of experiments testing seed longevity of Verbascum blattaria, with seed showing almost 100 per cent germ after 100 years of being baried in glass bottles. -Travis Owen Rogue River, OR http://amateuranthecologist.blogspot.com/ From msittner@mcn.org Mon, 16 Mar 2015 22:17:04 -0700 Message-Id: <20150317050843.C508327B9A@lists.ibiblio.org> From: Mary Sue Ittner Subject: irids of the world Date: Mon, 16 Mar 2015 22:09:36 -0700 At 09:08 PM 3/16/2015, you wrote: >Are there any genera of Iridaceae other than Iris found in Asia or >northern Europe? Table 1 in the Iris Family book by Goldblatt and Manning suggests: Gladiolus, Romulea, Crocus, Moraea From rdevries@comcast.net Tue, 17 Mar 2015 04:17:04 -0700 Message-Id: From: Rimmer deVries Subject: Microchips in lieu of labls Date: Tue, 17 Mar 2015 06:33:38 -0400 Bob Push the labels down flush with the soil. The only time you want see the label is when you want to id or determine donor or source location etc. or when you want to plant something on top of or through the bulb. If the label is consistently placed at a certain direction from the bulb relative to your point of viewing, say 12:00 and placed adjacent to a rock etc, that is the logical place to look with your finger. if no label than it is an open space (unlikely), then dig with your hands. sometime you can plant on top of a bulb to get multi season use from the ideal spot, i do this in rock crevices in a rockery. my problem is some labels are too long and cannot be pushed down all the way due to rocks or potting baskete, etc, yes i cut them down insert them sideways, etc. and the frost heaves them up and out and the wind and crows move them about. since i have sliced almost every bulb type, i now initially dig with my fingers. the annual determination of what is what due to missing labels makes the flower enjoyment even more fun ; ) Rimmer in windy SE Michigan Zone 5 with a week above freezing and no more snow cover. > On Mar 16, 2015,,Bob Nold wrote: > > Squirrels have higher accuracy. > > Much less accurate than my trowel, however. I can slice through a bulb no matter how well it’s labeled. (I call it “subterranean twin-scaling”.) > Another idea, and this one is at least hemi-serious, since I grow all my bulbs in the ground, would be some kind of computerized garden-mapping program so I could eliminate labels and yet be able to locate the bulbs accurately. > I have a three-month-old border collie who thinks removing all the labels from the garden makes it look better. > Bob Nold > Denver, Colorado, USA _______________________________________________ pbs mailing list pbs@lists.ibiblio.org http://pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php http://pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki From enoster@hotmail.com Tue, 17 Mar 2015 06:17:06 -0700 Message-Id: From: Travis O Subject: Erythronium seed dispersal Date: Tue, 17 Mar 2015 05:19:27 -0700 Here is an interesting article about Erythronium seed: http://www.ou.edu/cas/botany-micro/ben/ben356.html -Travis Owen Rogue River, OR http://amateuranthecologist.blogspot.com/ From dkramb@badbear.com Tue, 17 Mar 2015 07:17:03 -0700 Message-Id: From: Dennis Kramb Subject: irids of the world Date: Tue, 17 Mar 2015 09:26:21 -0400 Thanks! I confirmed Crocus does exist in central Asia. I can't find any Gladilous, Romulea, or Moraea outside the Mediterranean region. It's weird how abundant irids are throughout the southern hemisphere & even North America... they are even in remote places such as Greenland, Bermuda, and Hawaii..... but surprisingly lacking in Asia & Northern Europe. Sisyrinchium are apparently naturalized in UK and Japan, but are not native there. I expected to find Sisyrinchium or some other genus in Russia or Japan, or perhaps some of the Australian genera in mainland SE Asia, but nope. Nothing. I'm surprised. Thanks, Dennis in Cincinnati On Tue, Mar 17, 2015 at 1:09 AM, Mary Sue Ittner wrote: > At 09:08 PM 3/16/2015, you wrote: > >> Are there any genera of Iridaceae other than Iris found in Asia or >> northern Europe? >> > > Table 1 in the Iris Family book by Goldblatt and Manning suggests: > Gladiolus, Romulea, Crocus, Moraea > _______________________________________________ > pbs mailing list > pbs@lists.ibiblio.org > http://pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php > http://pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki > From teck11@embarqmail.com Tue, 17 Mar 2015 08:17:08 -0700 Message-Id: <008101d060bb$7706ce70$65146b50$@embarqmail.com> From: "Tim Eck" Subject: Rant Date: Tue, 17 Mar 2015 10:05:44 -0400 I made a raised bed from railroad ties about 8' x 34' and created an excel spreadsheet of one foot squares, dropping circles and labels on it for the plants. I refer to this as my 'candy map' in deference to the chocolate companies that invented them for the lids of assorted chocolates (Actually, the cognoscenti don't need these maps as the chocolate swirls on the tops of the candies are a code describing the contents). Markers comprised of roofing nails driven into the ties mean I don't need to take a measuring tape when I go out to work on the bed. Addressing another problem I occasionally deal with, taking notes in the rain, I purchased some Neenah Paper Tyger water and tear resistant paper to print the 'candy map' onto when I go out and make changes. Excel paginates my map into seven 5' x 8' pages so I just print out the page(s) I'm working on. Works for me, Tim Zone 6 PA -----Original Message----- From: pbs [mailto:pbs-bounces@lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf Of Steven Hart Sent: Tuesday, March 17, 2015 12:46 AM To: Pacific Bulb Society Subject: Re: [pbs] Rant Bob that's the idea of the century, I would love to dump all those yukky labels in the garden & scan my bulbs for location in the garden, name, date planted, location found etc.. It would be a fantastic adaption to the whole plant world. Steven On 17 March 2015 at 11:12, penstemon wrote Speaking of labels, I think it’s high time someone started putting microchips in bulbs, in order to be able to locate the bulbs using modern technology, rather than with a very sharp trowel. Bob > _______________________________________________ > pbs mailing list > pbs@lists.ibiblio.org > http://pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php > http://pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki > > -- > Steven : ) Esk Queensland Australia Summer Zone 5 Winter Zone 10 _______________________________________________ pbs mailing list pbs@lists.ibiblio.org http://pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php http://pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki From dkramb@badbear.com Tue, 17 Mar 2015 07:17:03 -0700 Message-Id: From: Dennis Kramb Subject: Chionodoxa and irids of the world Date: Tue, 17 Mar 2015 10:10:24 -0400 Google IS my friend. But so is PBS. I like giving PBS members the chance to share their knowledge with me. Wikipedia is friendly too, but a bit sketchy. I got all excited about Ainea, a new-to-me genus of irid from North America, only to find it's really Tigridia. Naughty, Wikipedia. Naughty. It's a pity the SIGNA website doesn't address this kind of stuff. Someone should complain to the webmaster about it. Dennis in Cincinnati On Tue, Mar 17, 2015 at 12:37 AM, James Waddick wrote: > Dear PBSers, > > I think I have a new record in number of deletes over pointless > ranting. > > Meanwhile I don’t recall any one helping to ID species in the > genus Chionodoxa. My go-to for cultivated bulbs is ‘The European Garden > Flora’. Vol has a key to the six most commonly encountered species in the > genus. These keys aren’t always easy to use and don’t always cover EVERY > species, but I think this one is pretty good. Vol 1 P 214-215 > > Dennis surely you know that Google is your friend. And if not > that there is always ‘World of the Iridaceae' by Innes. Fun to go through > the pages and pictures. A newer look is The Iris Family: Natural History > and Classification by Peter Goldblatt. Worth a look. > > Best Jim W. > > > > Are there any genera of Iridaceae other than Iris found in Asia or > > northern Europe? > > James Waddick > 8871 NW Brostrom Rd > Kansas City, MO 64152-2711 > USA > Phone 816-746-1949 > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > pbs mailing list > pbs@lists.ibiblio.org > http://pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php > http://pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki _______________________________________________ pbs mailing list pbs@lists.ibiblio.org http://pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php http://pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki From annamwal@interia.pl Tue, 17 Mar 2015 08:17:08 -0700 Message-Id: <98E64FF874BF44FDA1F246742AA11984@MarekKomputer> From: Subject: irids of the world Date: Tue, 17 Mar 2015 15:32:55 +0100 Hi, In the net I found native for our country: Iris aphylla, I. graminea - extinct, I. pseudacorus - syn. I. pseudoacorus , I. sibirica ; Crocus scepusiensis; Gladiolus palustris, G. imbricatus. Marek W., Poland --- Ta wiadomość została sprawdzona na obecność wirusów przez oprogramowanie antywirusowe Avast. http://www.avast.com _______________________________________________ pbs mailing list pbs@lists.ibiblio.org http://pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php http://pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki From penstemon@Q.com Tue, 17 Mar 2015 08:17:08 -0700 Message-Id: From: "penstemon" Subject: Microchips in lieu of labels Date: Tue, 17 Mar 2015 08:42:11 -0600 >Push the labels down flush with the soil. The only time you want see the label is when you want to id or determine donor or source location etc. or when you want to plant something on top of or through the bulb. The trouble with pushing labels into the soil, here, except in the sand piles, is that there is no possibility of pushing, only hammering. This is because of the “annual recommended top-dressing” of rock mulch on the raised beds, and generally dry conditions. Bob Nold Denver, Colorado, USA _______________________________________________ pbs mailing list pbs@lists.ibiblio.org http://pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php http://pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki From tiede@pacbell.net Tue, 17 Mar 2015 08:17:08 -0700 Message-Id: <047601d060c3$38b91fd0$aa2b5f70$@net> From: "Bracey Tiede" Subject: Rant Date: Tue, 17 Mar 2015 08:01:15 -0700 Tossing out an idea here. There is a widget called a QR code (square shape with lines and squiggles in it) that links the scanning cell phone to a webpage or display text or SMS or vCard info for texting or calling. This website explains it all and it's very simple to use. http://goqr.me/ This site allows you to enter some text and then create a QR code to print on whatever you like - label, paper, mug, shirt. My experience is that a laser printed item last lots longer outside than inkjet printing. Perhaps print a sticky label, attach to substrate and place next to the bulb. We use the Paw Paw Everlast Label Company's metal plant label holders, now with stainless steel legs. Cheers, Bracey San Jose CA -----Original Message----- From: pbs [mailto:pbs-bounces@lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf Of Tim Eck Sent: Tuesday, March 17, 2015 7:06 AM To: 'Pacific Bulb Society' Subject: Re: [pbs] Rant I made a raised bed from railroad ties about 8' x 34' and created an excel spreadsheet of one foot squares, dropping circles and labels on it for the plants. I refer to this as my 'candy map' in deference to the chocolate companies that invented them for the lids of assorted chocolates (Actually, the cognoscenti don't need these maps as the chocolate swirls on the tops of the candies are a code describing the contents). Markers comprised of roofing nails driven into the ties mean I don't need to take a measuring tape when I go out to work on the bed. Addressing another problem I occasionally deal with, taking notes in the rain, I purchased some Neenah Paper Tyger water and tear resistant paper to print the 'candy map' onto when I go out and make changes. Excel paginates my map into seven 5' x 8' pages so I just print out the page(s) I'm working on. Works for me, Tim Zone 6 PA -----Original Message----- From: pbs [mailto:pbs-bounces@lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf Of Steven Hart Sent: Tuesday, March 17, 2015 12:46 AM To: Pacific Bulb Society Subject: Re: [pbs] Rant Bob that's the idea of the century, I would love to dump all those yukky labels in the garden & scan my bulbs for location in the garden, name, date planted, location found etc.. It would be a fantastic adaption to the whole plant world. Steven On 17 March 2015 at 11:12, penstemon wrote Speaking of labels, I think it’s high time someone started putting microchips in bulbs, in order to be able to locate the bulbs using modern technology, rather than with a very sharp trowel. Bob > _______________________________________________ > pbs mailing list > pbs@lists.ibiblio.org > http://pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php > http://pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki > > -- > Steven : ) Esk Queensland Australia Summer Zone 5 Winter Zone 10 _______________________________________________ pbs mailing list pbs@lists.ibiblio.org http://pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php http://pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki From brian.whyer@btinternet.com Tue, 17 Mar 2015 08:17:08 -0700 Message-Id: <1426604977.98028.YahooMailNeo@web133104.mail.ir2.yahoo.com> From: Brian Whyer Subject: Microchips in lieu of labels Date: Tue, 17 Mar 2015 15:09:37 +0000 > Microchips in lieu of labels Microchips IN the labels is surely the answer. Just point a reader wand at it and it tells you what you want to know. No pulling out. One day ;-) >The trouble with pushing labels into the soil, here, except in the sand piles, is that there is no possibility of pushing, only hammering. This is because of the “annual recommended top-dressing” of rock mulch on the raised beds We have so much discussion on various forums over what is sand or grit or gravel; but rock mulch! How large is that and what shape? or is it just another name for some of the 3 above. (The word rock means different things around the English speaking world. Children here (UK) throw stones, rocks would be too heavy in general.) Brian Whyer, Buckinghamshire, England, where sand and gravel pits are quite common but no rock to speak of. _______________________________________________ pbs mailing list pbs@lists.ibiblio.org http://pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php http://pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki From penstemon@Q.com Tue, 17 Mar 2015 09:17:03 -0700 Message-Id: From: "penstemon" Subject: Microchips in lieu of labels Date: Tue, 17 Mar 2015 09:45:21 -0600 We have so much discussion on various forums over what is sand or grit or gravel; but rock mulch! How large is that and what shape? or is it just another name for some of the 3 above. Pea gravel. What I believe is called shingle in the U.K. Years of applying the “annual approved topdressing” (I read a lot of Graham Stuart Thomas), the raised beds have become mostly gravel, with some clay. Here, we mulch with shingle, but only after a hailstorm. Bob Nold Denver, Colorado, USA _______________________________________________ pbs mailing list pbs@lists.ibiblio.org http://pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php http://pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki From janemcgary@earthlink.net Tue, 17 Mar 2015 10:17:06 -0700 Message-Id: <55085B3A.2040406@earthlink.net> From: Jane McGary Subject: Erythronium fragrance Date: Tue, 17 Mar 2015 09:50:02 -0700 To answer Nathan's question, the two species he mentions are particularly fragrant, but Erythronium hendersonii is also, though less carrying. I haven't noticed any others, but since they flower when it's often cold, one might not smell them outdoors. Jane McGary Portland, Oregon, USA Excuse the underlining, I have a new computer system and can't get the spell check turned off. Yet. On 3/16/2015 6:45 PM, Nathan Lange wrote: > > Jane, > > In your experience, what are the most/least fragrant species? E. > multiscapideum and especially E. helenae seem particularly pleasant. > > Nathan From david@pilling.demon.co.uk Tue, 17 Mar 2015 10:17:06 -0700 Message-Id: <55085EA6.7050800@pilling.demon.co.uk> From: David Pilling Subject: Microchips in lieu of labels Date: Tue, 17 Mar 2015 17:04:38 +0000 Hi, On 17/03/2015 15:09, Brian Whyer wrote: > Microchips IN the labels is surely the answer. One could set that up now, very cheaply, about 20 pence per RFID tag and a handful of dollars for the reader (see ebay). Inserting the tag in the bulb is attractive until you remember that many bulbs recreate themselves every year. Fritillaria bulbs have a hole through the middle and I'm doing an experiment where I inserted a stick through the hole last Autumn, and expect it to not be in the bulb next time. It is common to find bulbs escaping from pots through the holes in the bottom. So they will travel and leave your tags behind. -- David Pilling www.davidpilling.com From arnold140@verizon.net Tue, 17 Mar 2015 10:17:06 -0700 Message-Id: <10514782.3073200.1426612196330.JavaMail.root@vznit170176.mailsrvcs.net> From: arnold140@verizon.net Subject: Erythronium fragrance Date: Tue, 17 Mar 2015 12:09:56 -0500 (CDT) Jane: There's no underlining coming through. I suspect that the code for underlining is not shown on PBS emails. Arnold On 03/17/15, Jane McGary wrote: To answer Nathan's question, the two species he mentions are particularly fragrant, but Erythronium hendersonii is also, though less carrying. I haven't noticed any others, but since they flower when it's often cold, one might not smell them outdoors. Jane McGary Portland, Oregon, USA Excuse the underlining, I have a new computer system and can't get the spell check turned off. Yet. On 3/16/2015 6:45 PM, Nathan Lange wrote: > > Jane, > > In your experience, what are the most/least fragrant species? E. > multiscapideum and especially E. helenae seem particularly pleasant. > > Nathan From penstemon@Q.com Tue, 17 Mar 2015 10:17:06 -0700 Message-Id: <20016C009B194DC7996DD8BE14593123@bobPC> From: "penstemon" Subject: Microchips in lieu of labels Date: Tue, 17 Mar 2015 11:12:51 -0600 >Inserting the tag in the bulb is attractive until you remember that many bulbs recreate themselves every year.' My bulbs go to a spa. (Sorry.) I forgot about bulbs renewing themselves. Some locating device dropped into the planting hole might be useful. Bob Nold Denver, Colorado, USA From teck11@embarqmail.com Tue, 17 Mar 2015 11:17:04 -0700 Message-Id: <000f01d060d6$d935e480$8ba1ad80$@embarqmail.com> From: "Tim Eck" Subject: Microchips in lieu of labels Date: Tue, 17 Mar 2015 13:21:45 -0400 I know dry sand is transparent to microwave but wouldn't damp earth shield against radio frequencies? From david@pilling.demon.co.uk Tue, 17 Mar 2015 11:17:04 -0700 Message-Id: <55086760.9030501@pilling.demon.co.uk> From: David Pilling Subject: Microchips in lieu of labels Date: Tue, 17 Mar 2015 17:41:52 +0000 Hi, On 17/03/2015 17:21, Tim Eck wrote: > I know dry sand is transparent to microwave but wouldn't damp earth shield > against radio frequencies? Doh... What is the deepest growing bulb. It's almost worth buying the kit to find out how deep it will go. The context was chipping labels or pots. But more power, more sensitivity. There is ground penetrating radar. -- David Pilling www.davidpilling.com From idavide@sbcglobal.net Tue, 17 Mar 2015 12:17:04 -0700 Message-Id: <1426618180.71441.YahooMailNeo@web181506.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> From: David Ehrlich Subject: Chionodoxa and irids of the world Date: Tue, 17 Mar 2015 11:49:40 -0700 Wikipedia is pretty clear about this genus: created by Ravenna in 1979 for a single Mexican species; currently considered a synonym for Tigridia >________________________________ > From: Dennis Kramb > > >. Naughty, Wikipedia. >Naughty. > >It's a pity the SIGNA website doesn't address this kind of stuff. Someone >should complain to the webmaster about it. > > > From penstemon@Q.com Tue, 17 Mar 2015 13:17:03 -0700 Message-Id: <4AB2FCB085854EA7B7599A0596B1FB96@bobPC> From: "penstemon" Subject: Microchips in lieu of labels Date: Tue, 17 Mar 2015 13:18:38 -0600 I know dry sand is transparent to microwave but wouldn't damp earth shield against radio frequencies? In the utility industries, with what are known as “out-of-sight” terminations, a device is buried which can be located with a detector. Wet soil or not. It’s spring, and so my mind can’t remember how this works exactly. Not quite the same as locating buried cables, which requires a signal to be applied to the cable. So it would be possible. (If not slightly ridiculous; I would have to buy thousands of devices.) Bob Nold Denver, Colorado, USA _______________________________________________ pbs mailing list pbs@lists.ibiblio.org http://pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php http://pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki From dkramb@badbear.com Tue, 17 Mar 2015 13:17:03 -0700 Message-Id: From: Dennis Kramb Subject: Chionodoxa and irids of the world Date: Tue, 17 Mar 2015 15:28:23 -0400 Wow. Thanks. Dennis in Cincinnati On Tue, Mar 17, 2015 at 2:49 PM, David Ehrlich wrote: > Wikipedia is pretty clear about this genus: created by Ravenna in 1979 for > a single Mexican species; currently considered a synonym for Tigridia > > > >________________________________ > > From: Dennis Kramb > > > > > >. Naughty, Wikipedia. > >Naughty. > > > >It's a pity the SIGNA website doesn't address this kind of stuff. Someone > >should complain to the webmaster about it. > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > pbs mailing list > pbs@lists.ibiblio.org > http://pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php > http://pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki > From btankers@gmail.com Tue, 17 Mar 2015 14:17:03 -0700 Message-Id: From: Boyce Tankersley Subject: Microchips in lieu of labels Date: Tue, 17 Mar 2015 15:16:40 -0500 We had a group of Northwestern University engineering majors tackle the problem of using RFID in a garden setting a couple of years back as a class project. They discovered the capture rate of the RFID tags increased to 20 feet if the reader used a spiral wave pattern instead of the traditional line of sight straight lines. Straight line of sight failed more often than not because of obstructive leaves, branches, etc. I experimented with T-budding a RFID chip under the bark of a spare willow seedling in the nursery but the little 'antennae' that I had left exposed beyond the bark corroded after a couple of years. Contact me at my personal email address for name and make of equipment that they found worked under mulch, couple of feet of snow or buried within one of our boxwood hedges. Boyce Tankersley Director of Living Plant Documentation Chicago Botanic Garden btankers@gmail.com where a week of above freezing temperatures has finally melted most of the snow to the flowering delight of Galanthus, Eranthis, Iris reticulata, Adonis - and gardeners. On Tue, Mar 17, 2015 at 10:45 AM, penstemon wrote: > > We have so much discussion on various forums over what is sand or grit or > gravel; but rock mulch! How large is that and what shape? or is it just > another name for some of the 3 above. > > > Pea gravel. What I believe is called shingle in the U.K. Years of applying > the “annual approved topdressing” (I read a lot of Graham Stuart Thomas), > the raised beds have become mostly gravel, with some clay. > Here, we mulch with shingle, but only after a hailstorm. > > Bob Nold > Denver, Colorado, USA > _______________________________________________ > pbs mailing list > pbs@lists.ibiblio.org > http://pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php > http://pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki > _______________________________________________ pbs mailing list pbs@lists.ibiblio.org http://pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php http://pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki From enna1921@live.ca Tue, 17 Mar 2015 16:17:05 -0700 Message-Id: From: Barbara McMullen Subject: Rant Date: Tue, 17 Mar 2015 18:38:52 -0400 Hahaha. :) Barbara -----Original Message----- From: penstemon Sent: Monday, March 16, 2015 9:12 PM To: Pacific Bulb Society Subject: Re: [pbs] Rant >We're not interested in wasting gardening time rewriting perfectly good labels. Speaking of labels, I think it’s high time someone started putting microchips in bulbs, in order to be able to locate the bulbs using modern technology, rather than with a very sharp trowel. Bob _______________________________________________ pbs mailing list pbs@lists.ibiblio.org http://pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php http://pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki _______________________________________________ pbs mailing list pbs@lists.ibiblio.org http://pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php http://pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki From toadlily@olywa.net Tue, 17 Mar 2015 16:17:05 -0700 Message-Id: <5508AD14.9020000@olywa.net> From: Laura & Dave Subject: Microchips in lieu of labels Date: Tue, 17 Mar 2015 15:39:16 -0700 Having worked on a research team that pushed the early development of the RFID tags, I'm sorry to point out that cheap tags wouldn't work if buried more than a small fraction of an inch/cm. I'm a bit out of date, but with the frequencies I was involved with, the soil damps the signals. If the tag antenna was at the upper end of a long tag, at the surface, then it would work, it would more likely stay in place, and it would be in the location the bulbs were assigned, or at least where they were last seen. Tags are being developed that track and transmit soil moisture, temperature and other measures, but the tags are on the surface with probes penetrating the soil. But who knows what's in the future. I know that I'd dearly love not to have to write so much information, both on labels and on pots themselves (ha, go ahead, pull my labels out!!). Dave From bonaventure@optonline.net Tue, 17 Mar 2015 17:17:05 -0700 Message-Id: <35228d98.118a.14c29fdccf0.Webtop.45@optonline.net> From: BO MAGRYS Subject: Rant Date: Tue, 17 Mar 2015 19:07:20 -0400 (EDT) Steven wrote :"I would love to dump all those yukky labels in the garden & scan my bulbs for location in the garden," .... I have a squirrel who does that for me. Bonaventure in New Jersey From bonaventure@optonline.net Tue, 17 Mar 2015 17:17:05 -0700 Message-Id: <5d4a681c.11a3.14c2a065394.Webtop.45@optonline.net> From: BO MAGRYS Subject: Phenology Date: Tue, 17 Mar 2015 19:16:39 -0400 (EDT) Here in coastal New Jersey, supposed Zone 7, but not sure after the last 2 brutal polar vortex winters, only the Eranthis and a few yellow species crocus are in bloom, beating out the snowdrops which are just showing their buds. Bonaventure From jamesamckenney@verizon.net Tue, 17 Mar 2015 17:17:05 -0700 Message-Id: <1350015996.984436.1426636444915.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> From: Jim McKenney Subject: Another cure for the label problem. Was: Re: Microchips in lieu of labels Date: Tue, 17 Mar 2015 23:54:04 +0000 (UTC) I'm enjoying this thread because I've had these same problems over the years. But I've hit on a solution which makes the labeling issue irrelevant. But it comes at a price, both figuratively and literally.  I'm rebuilding a low 40' dry wall originally built with brick stacked on the broad side to a bit less than two feet high. The brick has a warm color and is very harmonious with the plants in the garden: it definitely looks right. But deer have tried to climb this wall and have knocked parts down. Frost heaving has done the same thing here and there over the years.  This is a dangerous time of year for gardeners like me: until this week, it's been too cold to work in the garden, and all that pent up energy has to go somewhere, so it goes into dreaming up schemes to "improve" various parts of the garden (or ranting on PBS).  I've been dreaming walls all week, and the other day something I had been reading pushed me over the edge. Instead of using brick, I'm going to use cinder block and stack the blocks in stair fashion. The blocks will be stacked four high which will put the top of this tiered wall at about 32".That something I had been reading was Lawrence Thomas' article "Alpines in Containers" in that great little book published by the North American Rock Garden Society nearly twenty years ago: Handbook on troughs. Here's what Thomas wrote (this comes from a discussion of plants in containers): "Even ubiquitous cinder block can be used as a container of sorts. I've seen a splendid terrace herb garden constructed of nothing more than a series of cinder blocks artfully stacked and planted to perfection. Alpines could be similarly displayed." And I'll add: so I'll bet could bulbs!Each cinder block has two hollow spaces 5" x 5" x 8". Since 32' of the wall will be tiered (an 8' space will be left for a bench), that means that each tier will have 20 hollows to be planted. Each stack of four will thus have 80 such hollows. There will be two stacks (one on each side of the bench space) so there will be a total of 160 hollows to be filled. Each hollow will be assigned a number, and what has gone into each hollow will be kept track of in a computer database. Good by labels! If I can pull this off (a long talk with my 71 year old back is scheduled) , I'll have to learn to live for a while with the off-putting, heavy-duty industrial look that comes with the cinder blocks. But the tiers will be an open invitation to plant plenty of floppy, sprawling, creeping companion plants (phloxes, delospermas and so on) which will eventually soften the otherwise austere look.  Wish me luck! Jim McKenneyMontgomery County, Maryland, USA, USDA zone 7 where I'm humming Rossini's aria "Mura felice" right now.  _______________________________________________ pbs mailing list pbs@lists.ibiblio.org http://pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php http://pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki From jgglatt@gmail.com Tue, 17 Mar 2015 18:17:04 -0700 Message-Id: <5508D1CE.4000806@gmail.com> From: Judy Glattstein Subject: Snowdrops and Eranthis and a Broken Wrist Date: Tue, 17 Mar 2015 21:15:58 -0400 Went into the garden. Was delighted to find emerging galanthus and flowering eranthis, both somewhat yellowed, having just emerged from under the snow. Took pictures. Was coming up the other side of the little creek. Slipped, fell, and have a broken right wrist and fractured cheek bone. Wrist currently in a soft cast. Will find out tomorrow morning if it will be reduced or if I need surgery. What a disaster for the start of the gardening season! unhappy Judy in New Jersey P.S. Camera is fine. --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. http://www.avast.com From totototo@telus.net Tue, 17 Mar 2015 19:17:03 -0700 Message-Id: <55087421.24932.1E1DFB3@localhost> From: "Rodger Whitlock" Subject: irids of the world Date: Tue, 17 Mar 2015 18:36:17 -0700 On 17 Mar 2015, at 9:26, Dennis Kramb wrote: > some of the Australian genera in mainland SE Asia Google "Wallace Line". It's just like the absence of kangaroos in mainland SE Asia. -- Rodger Whitlock Victoria, British Columbia, Canada Z. 7-8, cool Mediterranean climate From fbiasella@watertownsavings.com Wed, 18 Mar 2015 06:17:03 -0700 Message-Id: <8B527E4BF1849349A39D95E700706C616197838F@S1P5DAG5B.EXCHPROD.USA.NET> From: Fred Biasella Subject: Snowdrops and Eranthis and a Broken Wrist Date: Wed, 18 Mar 2015 13:14:17 +0000 Judy, Oh you poor thing, I hope you get better soon and don't need surgery. This is totally something I would do. Warm Regards, Fred -----Original Message----- From: pbs [mailto:pbs-bounces@lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf Of Judy Glattstein Sent: Tuesday, March 17, 2015 9:16 PM To: pbs@lists.ibiblio.org Subject: [pbs] Snowdrops and Eranthis and a Broken Wrist Went into the garden. Was delighted to find emerging galanthus and flowering eranthis, both somewhat yellowed, having just emerged from under the snow. Took pictures. Was coming up the other side of the little creek. Slipped, fell, and have a broken right wrist and fractured cheek bone. Wrist currently in a soft cast. Will find out tomorrow morning if it will be reduced or if I need surgery. What a disaster for the start of the gardening season! unhappy Judy in New Jersey P.S. Camera is fine. --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. http://www.avast.com From kellso@irvincentral.com Wed, 18 Mar 2015 07:17:04 -0700 Message-Id: <55097F8D.4060804@irvincentral.com> From: Kelly Irvin Subject: Snowdrops and Eranthis and a Broken Wrist Date: Wed, 18 Mar 2015 08:37:17 -0500 Sorry, Judy. May you heal quickly. -- Mr. Kelly M. Irvin 10850 Hodge Ln Gravette, AR 72736 USA On 3/17/15 8:15 PM, Judy Glattstein wrote: > Was coming up the other side of the little creek. Slipped, fell, and > have a broken right wrist and fractured cheek bone. Wrist currently > in a soft cast. Will find out tomorrow morning if it will be reduced > or if I need surgery. From fritchick@gmail.com Wed, 18 Mar 2015 08:17:04 -0700 Message-Id: <017C00E2-695F-4995-AD5A-7D0E6C48AB84@gmail.com> From: Googs Subject: Snowdrops and Eranthis and a Broken Wrist Date: Wed, 18 Mar 2015 10:17:30 -0400 Ouch! Hope you're better quickly. 😀 Bridget In SE Pennsylvania where yesterday it was spring and today, not so much > On Mar 17, 2015, at 9:15 PM, Judy Glattstein wrote: > > Went into the garden. Was delighted to find emerging galanthus and flowering eranthis, both somewhat yellowed, having just emerged from under the snow. Took pictures. > > Was coming up the other side of the little creek. Slipped, fell, and have a broken right wrist and fractured cheek bone. Wrist currently in a soft cast. Will find out tomorrow morning if it will be reduced or if I need surgery. > > What a disaster for the start of the gardening season! > > unhappy Judy in New Jersey > > P.S. Camera is fine. > > --- > This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. > http://www.avast.com > > _______________________________________________ > pbs mailing list > pbs@lists.ibiblio.org > http://pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php > http://pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki _______________________________________________ pbs mailing list pbs@lists.ibiblio.org http://pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php http://pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki From pharcher@mindspring.com Wed, 18 Mar 2015 11:17:04 -0700 Message-Id: <3581528.1426701145635.JavaMail.root@elwamui-darkeyed.atl.sa.earthlink.net> From: Paul Archer Subject: Microchips in lieu of labels Date: Wed, 18 Mar 2015 13:52:24 -0400 (GMT-04:00) From eringracesales@gmail.com Wed, 18 Mar 2015 12:17:04 -0700 Message-Id: From: Erin Grace Subject: Another cure for the label problem. Was: Re: Microchips in lieu of labels Date: Wed, 18 Mar 2015 14:16:32 -0400 Jim, I have a fried who had a Tuscan themed garden built for her. As part of the garden she wanted raised (high enough to pick and plant without bending over) beds with herbs and vegetables. She has a very visionary and talented gentleman working for her, he built the walls for the raised beds out of cinderblock, then "mudded" over the walls and either stained or painted them. In the end they looked like weathered stone or plaster, and once they were planted and had creepers and spillers to help with the look it was a work of art! Erin Grace Thomasville, Georgia, USA From jamesamckenney@verizon.net Wed, 18 Mar 2015 12:17:04 -0700 Message-Id: <1373795314.1352669.1426704425710.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> From: Jim McKenney Subject: Another cure for the label problem. Was: Re: Microchips in lieu of labels Date: Wed, 18 Mar 2015 18:47:05 +0000 (UTC) Thanks, Erin, that's just the sort of encouragement I'm hoping for.I've already given thought to slathering hypertufa over the cinder block to change the look.This project is going to be a lot of fun.  Jim McKenney Montgomery County, Maryland, USA, USDA zone 7, where at 45 degrees F and a stiff breeze it's no day to be sitting in the garden daydreaming about the lilies. _______________________________________________ pbs mailing list pbs@lists.ibiblio.org http://pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php http://pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki From enna1921@live.ca Wed, 18 Mar 2015 16:17:06 -0700 Message-Id: From: Barbara McMullen Subject: Another cure for the label problem. Was: Re: Microchips in lieu of labels Date: Wed, 18 Mar 2015 18:28:59 -0400 That sounds interesting. Do more esthetically attractive blocks exist that also have hollows? Barbara -----Original Message----- From: Jim McKenney Sent: Tuesday, March 17, 2015 7:54 PM To: Pacific Bulb Society Subject: [pbs] Another cure for the label problem. Was: Re: Microchips in lieu of labels I'm enjoying this thread because I've had these same problems over the years. But I've hit on a solution which makes the labeling issue irrelevant. But it comes at a price, both figuratively and literally. I'm rebuilding a low 40' dry wall originally built with brick stacked on the broad side to a bit less than two feet high. The brick has a warm color and is very harmonious with the plants in the garden: it definitely looks right. But deer have tried to climb this wall and have knocked parts down. Frost heaving has done the same thing here and there over the years. This is a dangerous time of year for gardeners like me: until this week, it's been too cold to work in the garden, and all that pent up energy has to go somewhere, so it goes into dreaming up schemes to "improve" various parts of the garden (or ranting on PBS). I've been dreaming walls all week, and the other day something I had been reading pushed me over the edge. Instead of using brick, I'm going to use cinder block and stack the blocks in stair fashion. The blocks will be stacked four high which will put the top of this tiered wall at about 32".That something I had been reading was Lawrence Thomas' article "Alpines in Containers" in that great little book published by the North American Rock Garden Society nearly twenty years ago: Handbook on troughs. Here's what Thomas wrote (this comes from a discussion of plants in containers): "Even ubiquitous cinder block can be used as a container of sorts. I've seen a splendid terrace herb garden constructed of nothing more than a series of cinder blocks artfully stacked and planted to perfection. Alpines could be similarly displayed." And I'll add: so I'll bet could bulbs!Each cinder block has two hollow spaces 5" x 5" x 8". Since 32' of the wall will be tiered (an 8' space will be left for a bench), that means that each tier will have 20 hollows to be planted. Each stack of four will thus have 80 such hollows. There will be two stacks (one on each side of the bench space) so there will be a total of 160 hollows to be filled. Each hollow will be assigned a number, and what has gone into each hollow will be kept track of in a computer database. Good by labels! If I can pull this off (a long talk with my 71 year old back is scheduled) , I'll have to learn to live for a while with the off-putting, heavy-duty industrial look that comes with the cinder blocks. But the tiers will be an open invitation to plant plenty of floppy, sprawling, creeping companion plants (phloxes, delospermas and so on) which will eventually soften the otherwise austere look. Wish me luck! Jim McKenneyMontgomery County, Maryland, USA, USDA zone 7 where I'm humming Rossini's aria "Mura felice" right now. _______________________________________________ pbs mailing list pbs@lists.ibiblio.org http://pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php http://pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki From enna1921@live.ca Wed, 18 Mar 2015 16:17:06 -0700 Message-Id: From: Barbara McMullen Subject: Snowdrops and Eranthis and a Broken Wrist Date: Wed, 18 Mar 2015 18:30:11 -0400 Hope you'll be better soon. Barbara -----Original Message----- From: Judy Glattstein Sent: Tuesday, March 17, 2015 9:15 PM To: pbs@lists.ibiblio.org Subject: [pbs] Snowdrops and Eranthis and a Broken Wrist Went into the garden. Was delighted to find emerging galanthus and flowering eranthis, both somewhat yellowed, having just emerged from under the snow. Took pictures. Was coming up the other side of the little creek. Slipped, fell, and have a broken right wrist and fractured cheek bone. Wrist currently in a soft cast. Will find out tomorrow morning if it will be reduced or if I need surgery. What a disaster for the start of the gardening season! unhappy Judy in New Jersey P.S. Camera is fine. --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. http://www.avast.com From pbs@lists.ibiblio.org Wed, 18 Mar 2015 17:17:04 -0700 Message-Id: <14c2f3b2ab5-77cc-88b9@webprd-m87.mail.aol.com> From: Ernie DeMarie via pbs Subject: Snowdrops and Eranthis and a Broken Wrist Date: Wed, 18 Mar 2015 19:32:29 -0400 Hi Judy, So sorry that you had a bad fall like that, I hope your wrist and cheek heal quickly. Only see eranthus here, the snowdrops at home are still covered in snow and more may come on Friday (I really hope NOT). I dont even see the reticulate irises yet, this is a very late season indeed. Ernie DeMarie In a cold Briarcliff NY where snow is receding but still on the ground and a cold night awaits. Z7 but not this year From kalb@comcast.net Wed, 18 Mar 2015 19:17:04 -0700 Message-Id: From: Norm Kalbfleisch Subject: Hello, Norm Kalbfleisch here, please remove me from the PBS listserve Date: Wed, 18 Mar 2015 18:47:36 -0700 Norm Kalbfleisch Woodland Way Nursery kalb@comcast.net From enoster@hotmail.com Wed, 18 Mar 2015 20:17:04 -0700 Message-Id: From: Travis O Subject: Broken wrist and Cinder blocks Date: Wed, 18 Mar 2015 19:49:57 -0700 Judy, I hope you heal quickly, and you have flowers to enjoy while you are recovering. At least it wasn't an ankle! If you were here, I'd make a comfrey poultice for you. If you know someone who's got comfrey, mash up some fresh clean roots in a blender and wear it overnight wrapped with a cotton washcloth or similar. Jim, The wall project sounds terrific! I think they offer more than one size of cinder block, say at a landscape supply yard. Perhaps a concrete stain would help until the plants were established? I'd avoid home depot, their blocks are inferior quality and cheaply made. Travis Owen Rogue River, OR amateuranthecologist.blogspot.com From rjrussell@cot.net Wed, 18 Mar 2015 20:17:04 -0700 Message-Id: <918D36F7415C4F34A3C51E8C2A810AC5@DELLPC> From: "Joey Russell" Subject: Snowdrops and Eranthis and a Broken Wrist Date: Wed, 18 Mar 2015 20:06:44 -0700 Dear Judy, So sorry to hear about your fall and at the beginning of gardening season too. I learn so much from all of you who contribute to this list. It has become a joy to read about every ones gardens. I especially like the climate zone conversations and too know that the bulbs flower in each zone when the conditions are right. So while my snowdrops are now producing seed pods, others are still under snow! Take care of your wrist! Hope it heals soon and well! Joey Russell zone 7 for sure this year! No. CA 45 mi. south of the Oregon border! -----Original Message----- From: Ernie DeMarie via pbs Sent: Wednesday, March 18, 2015 4:32 PM To: pbs@lists.ibiblio.org Cc: pelarg@aol.com Subject: Re: [pbs] Snowdrops and Eranthis and a Broken Wrist Hi Judy, So sorry that you had a bad fall like that, I hope your wrist and cheek heal quickly. Only see eranthus here, the snowdrops at home are still covered in snow and more may come on Friday (I really hope NOT). I dont even see the reticulate irises yet, this is a very late season indeed. Ernie DeMarie In a cold Briarcliff NY where snow is receding but still on the ground and a cold night awaits. Z7 but not this year From janemcgary@earthlink.net Thu, 19 Mar 2015 17:17:10 -0700 Message-Id: <550B66A3.3030704@earthlink.net> From: Jane McGary Subject: Shipping period for Sprekelia Date: Thu, 19 Mar 2015 17:15:31 -0700 A question has come through the website from a gardener in Spain, wanting to know when the best time is to purchase Sprekelia bulbs to be shipped during their dormant period. Can someone help? Can you recommend a supplier in the EU for her? Thanks, Jane McGary From tylus.seklos@gmail.com Thu, 19 Mar 2015 18:17:04 -0700 Message-Id: From: Jude Haverington Subject: Shipping period for Sprekelia Date: Thu, 19 Mar 2015 20:17:13 -0400 How can we reach her? On Thu, Mar 19, 2015 at 8:15 PM, Jane McGary wrote: > A question has come through the website from a gardener in Spain, wanting > to know when the best time is to purchase Sprekelia bulbs to be shipped > during their dormant period. Can someone help? Can you recommend a supplier > in the EU for her? > > Thanks, > Jane McGary > > _______________________________________________ > pbs mailing list > pbs@lists.ibiblio.org > http://pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php > http://pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki > -- The Silent Seed Rare and Unusual plants from around the world. thesilentseed.com From bulborum@gmail.com Thu, 19 Mar 2015 18:17:04 -0700 Message-Id: From: Bulborum Botanicum Subject: Shipping period for Sprekelia Date: Fri, 20 Mar 2015 01:18:42 +0100 I have them now dry Roland R de Boer 2238 Route de la Maugardiere F 27260 EPAIGNES FRANCE Phone./Fax 0033-232-576-204 Email: bulborum@gmail.com Facebook Groups:https://www.facebook.com/groups/bulborum/ Facebook Page: https://www.facebook.com/pages/Bulborum/452518118130496 2015-03-20 1:17 GMT+01:00 Jude Haverington : > How can we reach her? > > On Thu, Mar 19, 2015 at 8:15 PM, Jane McGary > wrote: > >> A question has come through the website from a gardener in Spain, wanting >> to know when the best time is to purchase Sprekelia bulbs to be shipped >> during their dormant period. Can someone help? Can you recommend a supplier >> in the EU for her? >> >> Thanks, >> Jane McGary >> >> _______________________________________________ >> pbs mailing list >> pbs@lists.ibiblio.org >> http://pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php >> http://pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki >> > > > > -- > The Silent Seed > Rare and Unusual plants from around the world. > thesilentseed.com > _______________________________________________ > pbs mailing list > pbs@lists.ibiblio.org > http://pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php > http://pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki From Miller7398@comcast.net Thu, 19 Mar 2015 18:17:04 -0700 Message-Id: <5F63CD55BC7043679D969BCFC67E0A16@OwnerPC> From: "Joyce Miller" Subject: H. calystratum Date: Thu, 19 Mar 2015 18:14:28 -0700 Dear All, I have a small H. calyptratum bulb with one offset. It never has more than two leaves and is chronically infested with mealy bugs or smaller white insect. HISTORY: It was formerly in my GH with a min.temp of 55 F. Briefly indoors under fl. lights. with temp. range 70 to 65. Attempted to manage mealies with solution of water, isopropl and Murphy's oil applied with Q tip to avoid spraying and isoproply build up in medium. Largely ineffective. WHAT I HAVE DONE THIS WEEK Applied systemic DEXAL 9 for mealies and placed pot outside with p.m. temperature minimum at 42 F+. Read WIKI and realize potting media (while ok for Hipps) is too wet for H. calytratum. REQUEST FOR RECOMMENDATIONS, What to do and order of changes. Would like to let systemic work, but concerned medium is too wet and cold for plant to survive. Joyce Miller, Gresham, Or From ang.por@alice.it Fri, 20 Mar 2015 01:17:05 -0700 Message-Id: <14c36260641.ang.por@alice.it> From: "ang.por@alice.it" Subject: BX 351/21 Date: Fri, 20 Mar 2015 08:46:43 +0100 (CET) I would inform that item 21 of BX 351 is actually Gladiolus splendens and not orchidiflorus as stated. Please, send material correctly identified, it's quite nasty to grow something for years to find later to be another stuff. Angelo PorcelliItaly From Krinon@afrikana.org Fri, 20 Mar 2015 02:17:05 -0700 Message-Id: <503CBE4DEB394A81B3306493D19838C4@GG2> From: "Krinon" Subject: BX 351/21 Date: Fri, 20 Mar 2015 08:11:18 -0000 They are surely mixed, Angelo. Last year I got Gladiolus splendens from BX 351/21, but from the same pot I had one G. orchidiflorus this year. Giuseppe Canary Islands From david@pilling.demon.co.uk Fri, 20 Mar 2015 05:17:04 -0700 Message-Id: <550C0D5D.6050109@pilling.demon.co.uk> From: David Pilling Subject: BX 351/21 Date: Fri, 20 Mar 2015 12:06:53 +0000 Hi, On 20/03/2015 07:46, ang.por@alice.it wrote: > I would inform that item 21 of BX 351 is actually Gladiolus splendens and not orchidiflorus as stated. > Please, send material correctly identified, it's quite nasty to grow something for years > to find later to be another stuff. I've been both victim and (to my shame) perpetrator of similar events. Sometimes the photos of plants on the web one uses for identification are also wrong, contamination having spread beyond the seed exchanges. But the wiki photos of those two species [1] look clear enough. Shows the utility of having photos of seeds and bulbs on the wiki, although I have no idea if these are distinct for these two species. [1] http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki/index.php/SouthernAfricanGladiolusEight#splendens http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki/index.php/SouthernAfricanGladiolusSix#orchidiflorus -- David Pilling www.davidpilling.com From annamwal@interia.pl Fri, 20 Mar 2015 10:17:03 -0700 Message-Id: <90C70924D57E4B399941E907F739E125@MarekKomputer> From: Subject: Shipping period for Sprekelia Date: Fri, 20 Mar 2015 17:27:34 +0100 Hi, I have bought Sprekelia bulb some years ago on Flora Olomouc (Czech Rep.), wich goes every year on the last week of April (http://www.flora-ol.cz/flora-olomouc-2015-jarni-etapa/). I treat Sprekelia like Hippeastrum with rest period from October to February. Marek W., Poland --- Ta wiadomość została sprawdzona na obecność wirusów przez oprogramowanie antywirusowe Avast. http://www.avast.com _______________________________________________ pbs mailing list pbs@lists.ibiblio.org http://pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php http://pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki From robin@hansennursery.com Fri, 20 Mar 2015 17:17:04 -0700 Message-Id: <133D9D61BCEE4DE79152688F4EE884DA@RobinPC> From: "Robin Hansen" Subject: Fritillaria airsii or aairsii Date: Fri, 20 Mar 2015 17:12:48 -0700 Does anyone know this bulb? The tag says I received it from IG12 or IG whoever that might be in 2012, probably the 2011 crop. I can't find it in any of my reference books or on the web. I'm asking because I happened to notice this evening that there were seedlings visible, and one leaf is clearly white edged, but only one, so either a stray seed was mixed in when I received the packet or who knows? Thanks Robin Hansen Hansen Nursery where it's raining, but not snowing From enoster@hotmail.com Sat, 21 Mar 2015 08:17:03 -0700 Message-Id: From: Travis O Subject: Hasan Yildirim, Turkish taxonomist Date: Sat, 21 Mar 2015 08:13:08 -0700 Hello, Turkish taxonomist Hasan Yildirim has described a few new species of Scilla (one possibly a Chionodoxa), Puschkinia, and Bellevalia, among others. He has generously shared photos of these species for use on the PBS wiki. Please visit his contributor page [1] to find links to the new additions. He has also shared with me PDF's of the newly described species that I will email to anyone who is interested. [1] http://pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki/index.php/HasanYildirim Travis Owen Rogue River, OR amateuranthecologist.blogspot.com From dr.mas.roberts@gmail.com Sun, 22 Mar 2015 01:17:05 -0700 Message-Id: From: mrobertson Subject: Fritillaria monograph on its way Date: Sun, 22 Mar 2015 01:14:23 -0700 Dear Ms McGary (and other PBS members), I was very interested to read your article "Fritillaria in the Pacific Garden." Though it may be difficult to acquire seeds, could you recommend species that I may be able to grow in my small rock garden in Roseville, California? I would start the seeds in pots and transplant to the garden later. My USDA hardiness zone is 9a or 9b depending on who you believe. I have personally measured temperatures below 20oF from my weather station that matches standard specifications. The last two years have been unusually dry and somewhat warm, so I cannot count on cold for those bulbs that require it either. I garden on the edge of Sunset zones 9 & 14, so July-August high temperatures are typically above 100 oF for many days to a record high of 118 oF (43 oC to 48 oC) accompanied by low humidity. Fortunately, cool evening breezes off the Sacramento/San Joaquin river delta make nighttime temperatures comfortable, at least for humans. My soil is slightly acid heavy clay amended with sand, gravel, composted yard trimmings, and rotted pine bark. The garden is built on a slope and despite the clay has reasonably good drainage. The altitude is about 100 feet (30m) Most of the garden is in full sun, but some areas have shade at mid day from a pomegranate tree. A few small shrubs and of course the stones/rocks offer some shelter as well. (There has recently been some discussion on the forum of what dimensions define stones and rocks. Mine range from a span to a cubit in cross section). Annual precipitation averages about 22 inches (560mm) but recently has been much less. I irrigate about one inch (25mm) in a single watering per month during the dry season (between May and October). Hopefully we will have water for irrigation this year. I give no supplemental water to the area of the garden with California native plants during this time. As you probably know, we normally have 4 to 5 months without significant precipitation every year. During winter and spring, I ir rigate the entire garden every week or every other week if there is no rain--about one inch each time to keep the soil from drying out. Specimen plants are given supplemental water all year as needed, I would appreciate it if you could also direct me to cultivation advice as well for selected fritillary species. Thank you for suggestions. I just started the rock garden in 2013 and am at this stage still just experimenting. Each species and variety is such an exciting challenge. Sincerely, Mark Robertson P.S. Currently blooming here are Tulipa wilsoniana, Tulipa linifilia, Leucojum aestivum, Ipheion uniflora, Narcissus bulbocodium conspicuus, and Narcissus hybrids, Ixia hybrids, Sparaxis hybrids, Bletilla striata, Freesia hybrids, and lots of Cymbidiums in pots as well. They grow outside with a little protection on the coldest nights. This fall, Sternbergia lutea and fall Crocus spp., did well. Triteleia spp., Dichelostemma spp., Tulipa clusiana, and others are coming along well. From janemcgary@earthlink.net Sun, 22 Mar 2015 11:17:04 -0700 Message-Id: <550F02D4.2080903@earthlink.net> From: Jane McGary Subject: Fritillaria monograph on its way Date: Sun, 22 Mar 2015 10:58:44 -0700 Dear Dr. Robertson, I have found that all the western American Fritillaria species are more cold-hardy than might be expected from their native range (this is also true of Calochortus), and more than British publications claim. I'm familiar with your area and would try to grow any western American bulbs there if they could be protected from gophers and other predators. Planting bulbs among rocks, as you've begun to do, is a fairly good protective device if the rocks are close enough and big enough to deter tunneling. Another strategy is to acquire some of the strong plastic mesh pots used for aquatic plants in garden pools and sink them to the rim, and plant the bulbs in them; that will keep out voles, but I don't know about gophers as my former garden, which was in the Cascade foothills, rarely had a gopher (and the one that showed up and ate bulbs was promptly eaten by one of my Malamutes). As you say, it has become difficult to get seeds of western native bulbs, but the Pacific Bulb Society is expanding its members' seed exchange. I would also try the Theodore Payne Foundation (see their website) in southern California, which sells seeds. Telos Rare Bulbs (catalog online) and Illahe Rare Bulbs (website, catalog sent by email in August) sell western natives as mature and smaller bulbs. Seed of most Fritillaria species germinates the first year of sowing and the plants reach flowering size in about 4 years. Most of the American species (section Liliorrhiza) also produce either tiny offsets ("rice grains") or loose scales that can be used for propagation. I hope this is helpful. Sincerely, Jane McGary, Pacific Bulb Society On 3/22/2015 1:14 AM, mrobertson wrote: > Dear Ms McGary (and other PBS members), > > I was very interested to read your article "Fritillaria in the Pacific Garden." Though it may be difficult to acquire seeds, could you recommend species that I may be able to grow in my small rock garden in Roseville, California? I would start the seeds in pots and transplant to the garden later. My USDA hardiness zone is 9a or 9b depending on who you believe. I have personally measured temperatures below 20oF from my weather station that matches standard specifications. The last two years have been unusually dry and somewhat warm, so I cannot count on cold for those bulbs that require it either. I garden on the edge of Sunset zones 9 & 14, so July-August high temperatures are typically above 100 oF for many days to a record high of 118 oF (43 oC to 48 oC) accompanied by low humidity. Fortunately, cool evening breezes off the Sacramento/San Joaquin river delta make nighttime temperatures comfortable, at least for humans. My soil is slightly acid heavy clay amended with sand , > gravel, composted yard trimmings, and rotted pine bark. The garden is built on a slope and despite the clay has reasonably good drainage. The altitude is about 100 feet (30m) Most of the garden is in full sun, but some areas have shade at mid day from a pomegranate tree. A few small shrubs and of course the stones/rocks offer some shelter as well. (There has recently been some discussion on the forum of what dimensions define stones and rocks. Mine range from a span to a cubit in cross section). Annual precipitation averages about 22 inches (560mm) but recently has been much less. I irrigate about one inch (25mm) in a single watering per month during the dry season (between May and October). Hopefully we will have water for irrigation this year. I give no supplemental water to the area of the garden with California native plants during this time. As you probably know, we normally have 4 to 5 months without significant precipitation every year. During winter and spring, I ir > rigate the entire garden every week or every other week if there is no rain--about one inch each time to keep the soil from drying out. Specimen plants are given supplemental water all year as needed, > I would appreciate it if you could also direct me to cultivation advice as well for selected fritillary species. > Thank you for suggestions. I just started the rock garden in 2013 and am at this stage still just experimenting. Each species and variety is such an exciting challenge. > > Sincerely, > Mark Robertson > > P.S. Currently blooming here are Tulipa wilsoniana, Tulipa linifilia, Leucojum aestivum, Ipheion uniflora, Narcissus bulbocodium conspicuus, and Narcissus hybrids, Ixia hybrids, Sparaxis hybrids, Bletilla striata, Freesia hybrids, and lots of Cymbidiums in pots as well. They grow outside with a little protection on the coldest nights. This fall, Sternbergia lutea and fall Crocus spp., did well. Triteleia spp., Dichelostemma spp., Tulipa clusiana, and others are coming along well. > _______________________________________________ > pbs mailing list > pbs@lists.ibiblio.org > http://pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php > http://pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki > From jamesamckenney@verizon.net Sun, 22 Mar 2015 16:17:07 -0700 Message-Id: <1367384080.403314.1427064034327.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> From: Jim McKenney Subject: Merendera sobolifera Date: Sun, 22 Mar 2015 22:40:34 +0000 (UTC) Little Merendera sobolifera is in bloom now, later than in some years. It grows here in the ground at the edge of a lawn, in the local soil and not at all pampered. It grows in a spot with lots of tommies, and when the Merendera comes up it's hard to spot because it at first looks like another little crocus.Jim McKenneyMontgomery County, Maryland, USA, USDA zone 7, where a wood frog is calling from the garden pond. From jamesamckenney@verizon.net Sun, 22 Mar 2015 16:17:07 -0700 Message-Id: <277063656.404258.1427065566799.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> From: Jim McKenney Subject: An iris story, be continued Date: Sun, 22 Mar 2015 23:06:06 +0000 (UTC) Back in 1963 or so I bought a couple of dozen bulbs of Iris reticulata (the original purple flowered one). Some of these I planted in the garden, some I planted in several places in the adjacent parkland. Among those in the parkland, some were planted on a high bank of the creek. This was fifty years ago.Over the years the ones in the garden disappeared; of those in the parkland, most also disappeared. The ones on the high bank were lost when that bank collapsed in a storm and was washed away. One lot had been planted at the base of a huge black oak growing in the park just back of the garden. This lot persisted longer than any of the others, and was still blooming some years ago. Then the plants seemed to go into a minor decline: they reappeared yearly but did not bloom. I began to fertilize them a bit each year after that, and eventually there were three slowly thriving clumps, one of which I expected to bloom last year. Many of the black oaks in our neighborhood are dying now. As luck would have it, the oak under which the irises grew died and quickly went down in a big storm. Luckily it fell away from the garden, but when it fell it took up a disk of soil two or three yards in diameter which contained some of the surviving irises.The irises did not reappear on the disk, and I thought that was the end of them. A few days ago I carefully searched the site to see if any of the irises still grew in the general area. Yea! One does. For years I had resisted the temptation to bring some of the surviving irises back into the garden. Who would have thought that the oak would have died and in falling wrench the iris site away from the surrounding ground? What could go wrong next?I'm so tempted to dig the surviving bulb. Jim McKenneyMontgomery County, Maryland, USA, USDA zone 7, where more recently acquired reticulate irises are coming into bloom.  _______________________________________________ pbs mailing list pbs@lists.ibiblio.org http://pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php http://pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki From jwaddick@kc.rr.com Sun, 22 Mar 2015 20:17:08 -0700 Message-Id: <8C43BA5E-9318-4D87-B45E-176F2FB14B8A@kc.rr.com> From: James Waddick Subject: Scilla bifolia Date: Sun, 22 Mar 2015 22:12:13 -0500 Dear PBSers, I have been reading about Scilla bifolia. Years ago -maybe 10 or more - we bought some typical, white and pink flowered forms. When they first bloomed and only got to 2 inches we were a bit disappointed. Wikipedia says they are 4 to 8 in tall. Nothing close to that here. Over the years they have romped around the garden showing up here and there in miniature beauty mostly where they were never planted. Not sure if squirrels move them , but more likely self spread seed. They don’t spread enough to be weedy and we do wish they were more aggressive, but we find these tiny spots of color- mostly blue remains - and enjoy them tremendously beyond their actual dimmesions might suggest. Hard to recommend a tiny 2 in cluster of tiny little flowers, but they are not expensive to start with and worth every penny. They have come through temps well below 0F for years and seems to thrive on neglect. Give these little bulbs a big hand? Gems Jim W. James Waddick 8871 NW Brostrom Rd Kansas City, MO 64152-2711 USA Phone 816-746-1949 _______________________________________________ pbs mailing list pbs@lists.ibiblio.org http://pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php http://pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki From robin@hansennursery.com Sun, 22 Mar 2015 22:17:03 -0700 Message-Id: From: "Robin Hansen" Subject: Scilla bifolia Date: Sun, 22 Mar 2015 21:17:35 -0700 I'll agree with James about Scilla bifolia. I've had it for years, although only in blue, and adore it. I'm never expecting it and then suddenly there it it is, and tiny is definitely the word for it. I've used it in a number of troughs where it seems quite happy, and can be observed closely. They are tough, and tolerate a lot of rain as long as the soil is reasonably well-drained, but seem drought-tolerant as well. Robin Hansen Southwest coast of Oregon, where it's finally raining From fritchick@gmail.com Mon, 23 Mar 2015 07:17:05 -0700 Message-Id: From: "fritchick ." Subject: Scilla bifolia Date: Mon, 23 Mar 2015 10:06:30 -0400 Jim, I like that you mention this scilla. I have it, or something very very close, pop up in all the gardens I've had. It usually piggybacks on some clump of something as I've moved from house to house. I love it; I get down on my knees to inspect; it has occasionally popped up in the middle of the grass. And I always walk away smiling. The blue is striking. If I'm being honest, I was actually thinking of it yesterday, as I was able to be outside comfortably for the first time in months and was cleaning up. Spring will be official for me when I see it. Bridget in SE Pennsylvania (where the Scoliposis made it through the winter and you probably heard me howling with sheer delight!) On Sun, Mar 22, 2015 at 11:12 PM, James Waddick wrote: > Dear PBSers, > > I have been reading about Scilla bifolia. Years ago -maybe 10 or > more - we bought some typical, white and pink flowered forms. When they > first bloomed and only got to 2 inches we were a bit disappointed. > Wikipedia says they are 4 to 8 in tall. Nothing close to that here. > > Over the years they have romped around the garden showing up here > and there in miniature beauty mostly where they were never planted. Not > sure if squirrels move them , but more likely self spread seed. They don’t > spread enough to be weedy and we do wish they were more aggressive, but we > find these tiny spots of color- mostly blue remains - and enjoy them > tremendously beyond their actual dimmesions might suggest. > > Hard to recommend a tiny 2 in cluster of tiny little flowers, but > they are not expensive to start with and worth every penny. They have come > through temps well below 0F for years and seems to thrive on neglect. Give > these little bulbs a big hand? > > Gems Jim W. > > James Waddick > 8871 NW Brostrom Rd > Kansas City, MO 64152-2711 > USA > Phone 816-746-1949 > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > pbs mailing list > pbs@lists.ibiblio.org > http://pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php > http://pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki _______________________________________________ pbs mailing list pbs@lists.ibiblio.org http://pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php http://pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki From jamesamckenney@verizon.net Mon, 23 Mar 2015 08:17:06 -0700 Message-Id: <1969530793.795224.1427120434942.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> From: Jim McKenney Subject: Scilla bifolia Date: Mon, 23 Mar 2015 14:20:34 +0000 (UTC) Bridgett, was that a Scoliopus which made you so happy? Which one? And how long have you had it? Jim McKenneyMontgomery County, Maryland, USA, USDA zone 7 From fritchick@gmail.com Mon, 23 Mar 2015 20:17:03 -0700 Message-Id: From: "fritchick ." Subject: Scilla bifolia Date: Mon, 23 Mar 2015 10:38:26 -0400 Jim, I purchased it last Spring from Far Reaches, planted in summer. I had no real thought that it would actually winter over here about an hour west of Philadelphia (out in farm country), with our extended frigid temps. I situated it tight at the base of a trunk of a tree, sheltered and on a steep wooded hill. Pic attached of it coming on. Looking pretty good so far. Best, B On Mon, Mar 23, 2015 at 10:20 AM, Jim McKenney wrote: > Bridgett, was that a Scoliopus which made you so happy? Which one? And how > long have you had it? > Jim McKenneyMontgomery County, Maryland, USA, USDA zone 7 > > > _______________________________________________ > pbs mailing list > pbs@lists.ibiblio.org > http://pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php > http://pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki > From jimb@customwindowsupply.com Mon, 23 Mar 2015 08:17:06 -0700 Message-Id: From: Jim Barton Subject: Fritillaria monograph on its way Date: Mon, 23 Mar 2015 15:12:10 +0000 Dr. Robertson I have found a liberal application of yard cat will remove garden rodents up to the size of ground squirrels, four per thee acres works well for me. However they will also catch small birds and lizards. Jim Barton Modesto CA From jwaddick@kc.rr.com Mon, 23 Mar 2015 09:17:05 -0700 Message-Id: <8B252399-9B3D-42D6-93B7-E76780D04AFB@kc.rr.com> From: James Waddick Subject: Scilla bifolia and Anemones Date: Mon, 23 Mar 2015 10:20:36 -0500 Dear Robin and Bridget, So glad to hear your positive feed back about these smaller hardy bulbs that do not get the appreciation they deserve. Too often they are totally overlooked or ignored. I am also a big fan of Anemone nemorosa, ranunculoides and apennina and their cultivars and hybrids. Just emerging from the ground they put on a minor miracle of a show and then disappear for the rest of the year. Not certain these are officially bulbous with their thin wandering rhizomes, but I also love the actual tuberous Anemone blanda and such too. ‘White Splendor’ has started as well as a mix of ‘blue shades’. Sure signs of spring. Enjoy Jim W. > On Mar 23, 2015, at 9:06 AM, fritchick . wrote: > > Jim, I like that you mention this scilla. James Waddick 8871 NW Brostrom Rd Kansas City, MO 64152-2711 USA Phone 816-746-1949 _______________________________________________ pbs mailing list pbs@lists.ibiblio.org http://pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php http://pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki From janemcgary@earthlink.net Mon, 23 Mar 2015 11:17:08 -0700 Message-Id: <55104B99.2060707@earthlink.net> From: Jane McGary Subject: Scilla bifolia Date: Mon, 23 Mar 2015 10:21:29 -0700 Scilla bifolia spreads rapidly by seed, which ripens quite fast. It is doing well in turf here, where the grass is not mown until mid to late June to allow bulb foliage to ripen. The soil where it grows is not well drained, but no doubt the thick grass takes up a lot of the rainwater. Jane McGary Portland, oregon, USA On 3/22/2015 9:17 PM, Robin Hansen wrote: > I'll agree with James about Scilla bifolia. I've had it for years, > although only in blue, and adore it. I'm never expecting it and then > suddenly there it it is, and tiny is definitely the word for it. I've > used it in a number of troughs where it seems quite happy, and can be > observed closely. > > They are tough, and tolerate a lot of rain as long as the soil is > reasonably well-drained, but seem drought-tolerant as well. > > Robin Hansen > Southwest coast of Oregon, where it's finally raining > _______________________________________________ > pbs mailing list > pbs@lists.ibiblio.org > http://pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php > http://pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki > From jamesamckenney@verizon.net Mon, 23 Mar 2015 13:17:05 -0700 Message-Id: <1652610318.172410.1427139567921.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> From: Jim McKenney Subject: More things popping Date: Mon, 23 Mar 2015 19:39:27 +0000 (UTC) I visited my community garden plots today for the first time in about a week. It's about a mile from home. Lots has been happening in my absence. Today I found these in bloom: Colchicum hungaricum, Crocus chrysanthus 'Uschak Orange' and a nice assortment of reticulate irises (these seem to be thriving there). Fritillaria are popping up in numbers. F. persica is about four inches up out of the ground, I can see flower buds on F. bucharica, a teacup-sized dome of foliage of F. thunbergii is up, two forms of F. sewerzowii are pushing up thick red noses, and frits in general are on the move. Eremurus are just barely up above ground. Anemone blanda has buds, but they are still hanging downward and none has bloomed yet.Arilate and juno irises are rapidly greening up and raising great expectations. Lots of gaps among the tulips and crocuses: these gaps are explained by the fat rat I spotted today scurrying around in our plots. The rats have evidently learned to recognize the plastic mesh pots as a potential food source. They will go down a line of pots emptying one after another.Does anyone know if the Dutch have switched to a newer clone of Iris danfordiae in recent years? The ones I have now have bloomed reliably for four years in a row. Jim McKenneyMontgomery County, Maryland, USA, USDA zone 7, where last week a friend gave me a tray of six potted collectible snowdrops. _______________________________________________ pbs mailing list pbs@lists.ibiblio.org http://pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php http://pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki From hornig@oswego.edu Mon, 23 Mar 2015 13:17:05 -0700 Message-Id: From: Ellen Hornig Subject: More things popping Date: Mon, 23 Mar 2015 15:42:02 -0400 This is obviously not your typical community garden..... Ellen On Mon, Mar 23, 2015 at 3:39 PM, Jim McKenney wrote: > I visited my community garden plots today for the first time in about a > week. It's about a mile from home. Lots has been happening in my absence. > Today I found these in bloom: Colchicum hungaricum, Crocus chrysanthus > 'Uschak Orange' and a nice assortment of reticulate irises (these seem to > be thriving there). Fritillaria are popping up in numbers. F. persica is > about four inches up out of the ground, I can see flower buds on F. > bucharica, a teacup-sized dome of foliage of F. thunbergii is up, two forms > of F. sewerzowii are pushing up thick red noses, and frits in general are > on the move. Eremurus are just barely up above ground. Anemone blanda has > buds, but they are still hanging downward and none has bloomed yet.Arilate > and juno irises are rapidly greening up and raising great > expectations. Lots of gaps among the tulips and crocuses: these gaps are > explained by the fat rat I spotted today scurrying around in our plots. The > rats have evidently learned to recognize the plastic mesh pots as a > potential food source. They will go down a line of pots emptying one after > another.Does anyone know if the Dutch have switched to a newer clone of > Iris danfordiae in recent years? The ones I have now have bloomed reliably > for four years in a row. > Jim McKenneyMontgomery County, Maryland, USA, USDA zone 7, where last week > a friend gave me a tray of six potted collectible snowdrops. > _______________________________________________ > pbs mailing list > pbs@lists.ibiblio.org > http://pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php > http://pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki -- Ellen Hornig 212 Grafton St Shrewsbury MA 01545 From jamesamckenney@verizon.net Mon, 23 Mar 2015 13:17:05 -0700 Message-Id: <252319407.1118195.1427140874825.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> From: Jim McKenney Subject: More things popping Date: Mon, 23 Mar 2015 20:01:14 +0000 (UTC) Ellen wrote: "This is obviously not your typical community garden....." You're right, Ellen. Every year someone asks me "Jim, are you going to plant any vegetables this year?". And my response every year is the same: "No, they have  too many pests and diseases".  Jim McKenney _______________________________________________ pbs mailing list pbs@lists.ibiblio.org http://pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php http://pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki From hk@icarustrading.com Mon, 23 Mar 2015 14:17:08 -0700 Message-Id: From: From HK Subject: More things popping Date: Mon, 23 Mar 2015 16:44:52 -0400 What are plastic mesh pots that these rats spot? On Monday, March 23, 2015, Jim McKenney wrote: > Ellen wrote: "This is obviously not your typical community garden....." > You're right, Ellen. Every year someone asks me "Jim, are you going to > plant any vegetables this year?". And my response every year is the same: > "No, they have too many pests and diseases". > Jim McKenney > > > _______________________________________________ > pbs mailing list > pbs@lists.ibiblio.org > http://pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php > http://pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki From jamesamckenney@verizon.net Mon, 23 Mar 2015 14:17:08 -0700 Message-Id: <2051095963.1157653.1427144758751.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> From: Jim McKenney Subject: More things popping Date: Mon, 23 Mar 2015 21:05:58 +0000 (UTC) HK asked:"What are plastic mesh pots that these rats spot?" These are the green square containers in which  strawberries are sold. Years ago I ordered a bundle of them (against the better advice of another participant in this forum) and still have some left. I should not have called them pots, but I was thinking of the mesh pots I recently obtained from Growers Supply Co. Those have not had the rat test yet. Jim McKenney _______________________________________________ pbs mailing list pbs@lists.ibiblio.org http://pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php http://pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki From enoster@hotmail.com Mon, 23 Mar 2015 14:17:08 -0700 Message-Id: From: Travis O Subject: Scilla bifolia and Chionodoxa sardensis Date: Mon, 23 Mar 2015 14:09:12 -0700 Both Scilla bifolia and Chionodoxa sardensis are climaxing now here, and are very charming. The buds of both look very similar, it was hard to tell them apart before the flowers opened! My S. bifolia flowers are blue, about an inch off the ground. Though they are small, they rival the beauty of the finest Scilla siberica selection. I wouldn't mind some hybrids. Has anyone grown any S. bifolia hybrids? Travis Owen Rogue River, OR amateuranthecologist.blogspot.com From jamesamckenney@verizon.net Mon, 23 Mar 2015 15:17:04 -0700 Message-Id: <728901384.1192626.1427146156274.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> From: Jim McKenney Subject: Scilla bifolia and Chionodoxa sardensis Date: Mon, 23 Mar 2015 21:29:16 +0000 (UTC) Travis asked: "Has anyone grown any S. bifolia hybrids?" Travis, are you aware that Scilla bifolia and Chionodoxa sardensis hybridize readily?The hybrid is called × Chionoscilla and has been discussed on this list in the past.This hybrid has appeared spontaneously in my garden, and since your are growing both the scilla and the chionodoxa, you might find some among your plants in the future.See the PBS wiki for more information.  Jim McKenneyMontgomery County, Maryland, USA, USDA zone 7, where Scilla bifolia is in advanced bud but not in bloom yet. _______________________________________________ pbs mailing list pbs@lists.ibiblio.org http://pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php http://pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki From jwaddick@kc.rr.com Mon, 23 Mar 2015 22:17:04 -0700 Message-Id: From: James Waddick Subject: Scilla bifolia and Chionodoxa sardensis Date: Mon, 23 Mar 2015 23:25:25 -0500 Travis and all, We have grown S. bifolia selections with pink or white flowers. Essentially the same is for and size, they proved not as hardy here as the typical blue. Still have a few around, but they are touchy in the mid-west and my specific conditions. I’ve never had hybrids with Chionodoxa produced here although we grow all together. Best Jim > On Mar 23, 2015, at 4:09 PM, Travis O wrote: > > Has anyone grown any S. bifolia hybrids? > James Waddick 8871 NW Brostrom Rd Kansas City, MO 64152-2711 USA Phone 816-746-1949 _______________________________________________ pbs mailing list pbs@lists.ibiblio.org http://pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php http://pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki From rjrussell@cot.net Tue, 24 Mar 2015 06:17:04 -0700 Message-Id: <830D8BCA82D343BBB9C42ADE6FAE44BA@DELLPC> From: "Joey Russell" Subject: More things popping Date: Tue, 24 Mar 2015 05:25:41 -0700 I am delighted with the Narcissus bulbocodium I bought from the BX. The tags are quite worn off so I'm not sure exactly which is which but they are so cool. The Crinums made it through the winter as well! Here's to the future! My first Fritillaria meleagris is blooming and I love enjoying the conversation here while watching these flowers "go through their motion" from laying on the ground to forming their flower! So many winter hardy daffodils and other Narcissus, when is a good time to dig up the clumps and divide them? I have been using these chicken wire cages (small mesh) for some bulbs and if you leave part of the cage sticking up out of the ground the rodent may have a harder time finding its way into it although I've experienced some rodent (pocket gopher or vole?) climb up over the top and into the container! I love the idea about the rocks making it harder to tunnel and I will incorporate this in my beds to be sure. We have so many lava rocks to work with here and I will add that with our lava rock outcroppings the rodents can make beautiful living quarters in which to sally forth! The garden is looking too wonderful with things popping up, welcome spring! Joey Russell No. CA zone 6 or 7 depending on the year! -----Original Message----- From: Jim McKenney Sent: Monday, March 23, 2015 2:05 PM To: Pacific Bulb Society Subject: Re: [pbs] More things popping HK asked:"What are plastic mesh pots that these rats spot?" These are the green square containers in which strawberries are sold. Years ago I ordered a bundle of them (against the better advice of another participant in this forum) and still have some left. I should not have called them pots, but I was thinking of the mesh pots I recently obtained from Growers Supply Co. Those have not had the rat test yet. Jim McKenney _______________________________________________ pbs mailing list pbs@lists.ibiblio.org http://pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php http://pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki From janemcgary@earthlink.net Tue, 24 Mar 2015 17:17:04 -0700 Message-Id: <5511FB8B.6050006@earthlink.net> From: Jane McGary Subject: Fwd: PBS website contact:Watsonia Socium stc. Date: Tue, 24 Mar 2015 17:04:27 -0700 The following inquiry came via the PBS website. Please write privately, not to this forum, if you can help Ruth find these plants. -------- Forwarded Message -------- Subject: PBS website contact:Watsonia Socium stc. Date: Tue, 24 Mar 2015 13:23:25 -0700 From: Apache Reply-To: ruth Schreiber To: janemcgary@earthlink.net This is a message from the PBS website for janemcgary. Hi folks, Help! I am desperately trying to get my grubby paws on some different variety of Watsonis corms.. People are selling the seeds on Ebay but I know the effort and likelihood of success with seeds isn\'t so good. I\'m after. Watsonia Socium corms Watsonia Densiflora corms Watsonia Lepida corms... and the one below Cyrtanthus breviflorus If Possible, I would love to find a source for these. Thanks so much for any assistance you can provide. Cheers, Ruth -- Pacific Bulb Society web site email: website@pacificbulbsociety.org From michaelcmace@gmail.com Thu, 26 Mar 2015 01:17:05 -0700 Message-Id: <000501d06740$ab2a2c20$017e8460$@gmail.com> From: "Michael Mace" Subject: Fritillaria monograph on its way Date: Wed, 25 Mar 2015 14:14:21 -0700 Hi, Mark. I don't know of a good source for Fritillaria seeds, especially the North American ones. You could check the Sources list on the wiki; some of the companies listed there may have a few species. The availability of western US (especially Pacific coast) wildflower species seed is very poor these days. The old sources have faded away. It's depressing, so I try not to dwell on it. When you do get your frits, think carefully about summer water. Unlike Calochortus and most other California bulbs, the frits seem to prefer to get a bit of moisture in the summer. In the ground, natural soil moisture may be enough, depending on how deep the bulbs are. But in pots I've definitely killed a lot of species by letting them go totally dry in the summer. Good luck, Mike San Jose, CA From michaelcmace@gmail.com Thu, 26 Mar 2015 01:17:05 -0700 Message-Id: <004701d06740$af7eb930$0e7c2b90$@gmail.com> From: "Michael Mace" Subject: More things popping up Date: Wed, 25 Mar 2015 14:14:21 -0700 Joey wrote: > I've experienced some rodent (pocket gopher or vole?) climb up over the top and into the container! Rats will do that too. You might want to try laying chicken wire or hardware cloth on the surface of the soil (or bury it just beneath the surface so the weeds don't lift it). Half-inch chicken wire seems to be narrow enough to keep out the rodents but has holes large enough to let most bulbs grow through. Based on advice from Bob Werra, I switched from metal to plastic chicken netting on the surface, because I can much more easily cut the plastic to fit. Although the rodents ought to be able to chew through the stuff in theory, they don't seem to realize it. Mike San Jose, CA (zone 9, min temp 20F) Where spring is already more than half over and the hills are starting to dry out From ds429@frontier.com Thu, 26 Mar 2015 10:17:05 -0700 Message-Id: <1427386853.80405.YahooMailBasic@web163105.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> From: ds429 Subject: Pacific Bulb Society BX 374 Date: Thu, 26 Mar 2015 09:20:53 -0700 Dear All,       The items listed below have been donated by our members and friends to be shared. If you are interested in obtaining some of them, please email me PRIVATELY at mailto:ds429@frontier.com   Include "BX 374" in the subject line.         Specify the NUMBERS of the items which you would like; do not specify quantities. It is a good idea to include your snail mail address, too, in case I do not already have it. Availability is based on a first come, first served system. When you receive your seeds/bulbs you will find, included with them, a statement of how much money (usually $2.00/share of seeds or $3 - $5/share of bulbs)(cash, check, or Pay Pal to ; no money orders, please) you should send the PBS treasurer. Postage and packaging charges are added.     Many of you are subscribers to this pbs elist which is free, but are not members of the Pacific Bulb Society which has a yearly membership charge. THIS BX OFFERING IS AVAILABLE ONLY TO MEMBERS of the Pacific Bulb Society. If you are not a member, consider joining so that you can take advantage of future offers such as this. Go to our website:         If you would like to donate seeds or bulbs/corms to the PBS,(Donors will receive credit on the BX for the cost of postage for their donations.), please send CLEAN, clearly labeled plant materials to: Dell Sherk 55 W. High St. Salem, WV 26426 USA Non US donors should contact Dell for instructions before sending seeds.             I WILL REPLY TO YOU WITHIN 24 HRS OF MY RECEIPT OF YOUR ORDER. IF YOU DO NOT HEAR FROM ME, TRY AGAIN !! NOTE:  ALL SUPPLIES ARE VERY LIMITED ! From Joyce Miller: 1. Small  bulbs of Albuca shawii (A. tenuifolia) 2. Small bulbs of Drimiopsis kirkii? (D. botryoides) 3. Various sized tubers of Sinninigia sellovii 4. Various sized bulbs of Eucrosia bicolor 5. Small bulbs of Lachenalia quadricolor (L. aloides quadricolor) 6. Various sized bulbs of Camassia sp.? From Uli Urban: 7. Seeds of Scadoxus sp.? "My Scadoxus plant came from a plant sale in a Botanical Garden in Germany where they had an old plant of amazing size in a very large tub, this plant was full of spent flowers and must have looked magnificent when it was in flower. Unfortunately there was no name on the plant. They said the seedlings they were selling came from this plant. It flowered for the very first time last year, I handpollinated the flowers and got a handful of berries. It could be the old Hybrid 'King Albert'" Thank you, Joyce and Uli !! Best wishes, Dell Dell Sherk, PBS BX From ds429@frontier.com Thu, 26 Mar 2015 13:17:03 -0700 Message-Id: <1427398304.53633.YahooMailBasic@web163101.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> From: ds429 Subject: Paciic Bulb Society BX 374 CLOSED Date: Thu, 26 Mar 2015 12:31:44 -0700 As I said, the supplies are very small. There are already too many orders. Sorry! Packages will go out in a week or so. Enjoy, Dell Dell Sherk, PBS BX From arnold140@verizon.net Thu, 26 Mar 2015 15:17:04 -0700 Message-Id: <23790639.956240.1427406893727.JavaMail.root@vznit170136.mailsrvcs.net> From: arnold140@verizon.net Subject: seeds Date: Thu, 26 Mar 2015 16:54:53 -0500 (CDT) Seeds from: From Bjorn Wretman: 1. Seeds of Phaedranassa tunguraguae Arnold New Jersey From mdoming@gmail.com Thu, 26 Mar 2015 15:17:04 -0700 Message-Id: <2786FD99-F4C7-4904-AD63-E15BAC6305F8@gmail.com> From: =?utf-8?Q?V=C3=ADctor_Men=C3=A9ndez_Dom=C3=ADnguez?= Subject: seeds Date: Thu, 26 Mar 2015 16:01:03 -0600 I need ones !! jajajaj Please consider me > El 26/03/2015, a las 15:54, arnold140@verizon.net escribió: > > Seeds from: > > > > From Bjorn Wretman: > 1. Seeds of Phaedranassa tunguraguae > > Arnold > New Jersey > _______________________________________________ > pbs mailing list > pbs@lists.ibiblio.org > http://pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php > http://pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki _______________________________________________ pbs mailing list pbs@lists.ibiblio.org http://pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php http://pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki From thorne.fred@gmail.com Thu, 26 Mar 2015 17:17:05 -0700 Message-Id: <5C7D3B2575474C09B295B9ED31F7B9C7@FredTHP> From: "Fred Thorne" Subject: Paciic Bulb Society BX 374 CLOSED Date: Thu, 26 Mar 2015 16:35:51 -0700 Hi Dell...you can cancel my order and send to another member. Thank you! WBR Fred -----Original Message----- From: ds429 Sent: Thursday, March 26, 2015 12:31 PM To: pbs Subject: [pbs] Paciic Bulb Society BX 374 CLOSED As I said, the supplies are very small. There are already too many orders. Sorry! Packages will go out in a week or so. Enjoy, Dell Dell Sherk, PBS BX _______________________________________________ pbs mailing list pbs@lists.ibiblio.org http://pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php http://pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki From msittner@mcn.org Thu, 26 Mar 2015 18:17:03 -0700 Message-Id: <20150327003739.DADF927C55@lists.ibiblio.org> From: Mary Sue Ittner Subject: Oxalis pes-caprae Date: Thu, 26 Mar 2015 17:39:14 -0700 My husband found this article about this pest: https://baynature.org/articles/a-natural-history-of-that-little-yellow-flower-thats-everywhere-right-now/ I've been wondering how it can turn up in places I haven't seen it before and now I have learned that besides taking the tags out of my pots the scrub jays relocate it. Sigh. From enoster@hotmail.com Fri, 27 Mar 2015 05:17:04 -0700 Message-Id: From: Travis O Subject: Prospero seed Date: Fri, 27 Mar 2015 05:11:43 -0700 Hi, I just received seed of Prospero autumnale from SX2 (559 & 560), and I am not sure when to sow it? Does it need a warm rest before germ (sow now, germ in Autumn), or does it need cold stratification (sow Autumn)? I'll be sowing it in pots outdoors. Thank you! Travis Owen Rogue River, OR amateuranthecologist.blogspot.com From david@pilling.demon.co.uk Fri, 27 Mar 2015 06:17:04 -0700 Message-Id: <551551D4.9080701@pilling.demon.co.uk> From: David Pilling Subject: Prospero seed Date: Fri, 27 Mar 2015 12:49:24 +0000 Hi, On 27/03/2015 12:11, Travis O wrote: > I just received seed of Prospero autumnale from SX2 (559 & 560), and I am not sure when to sow it? http://www.onrockgarden.com/germination-guide/scilla-autumnalis says: Scilla autumnalis Germination Tips Sow @ 4°C for 3 months, then place @ 20°C for 3 months. Special Care: seedlings must remain at 4°C for full 3 months, then gradually raise temp to 20°C -- David Pilling www.davidpilling.com From enoster@hotmail.com Fri, 27 Mar 2015 09:17:04 -0700 Message-Id: From: Travis O Subject: A question for those who grow Chionodoxa... Date: Fri, 27 Mar 2015 09:09:41 -0700 Hi, I am attempting to simplify a way to sort out the different species of Chionodoxa based on floral morphology. The available keys (including the European Flora, thank you Jim Waddick!) separate species by variable characteristics like flower size, height, color, and flower number with only minor attention morphological details. These characteristics can be manipulated with differing growing conditions (for example: Shade vs. Sun, fertile vs. infertile soil, etc.) I hypothesize that species can be differentiated by the filaments, at least into groups (if not to species level). My hypothesis is as follows: "Luciliae types" have filaments of unequal length, parallel edges. "Forbesii types" have even filaments with tapered edges. I would like to test this by examining pictures of the different species with the filaments in focus, preferably macro shots. I am requesting photos from PBS list subscribers who grow any of the species and are confident with their identity (i.e. you grow them in pots, or only possess a single species). Kew only recognizes two species, C. luciliae and C. forbesii, but I would be interested in any species available. If anyone has pictured they can share, please contact me privately at enoster@hotmail.com I will share the results here, and if I learn anything useful I'll add the information to the PBS wiki. Thanks! Travis Owen Rogue River, OR amateuranthecologist.blogspot.com From janemcgary@earthlink.net Fri, 27 Mar 2015 11:17:04 -0700 Message-Id: <55159494.4040209@earthlink.net> From: Jane McGary Subject: Prospero seed Date: Fri, 27 Mar 2015 10:34:12 -0700 One need not follow the precise instructions for germinating Prospero autumnale (formerly Scilla autumnalis, and how did Prospero get neutered anyway?). It is native to climates similar to where the inquiring member, Travis, lives, and it is a kind of pioneer plant that appears to self-sow freely in roadside gravel and thin grassland. The seed matures very quickly (my plants originate from seed I collected from a colony that had both flowers and ripe seed) and probably germinates quickly too during the rainy season. Had I received this seed I would have sown it now, keeping it in a cool position and moist for a couple of months. Otherwise, Travis could store it dry until September for sowing. An unheated greenhouse would be suitable for germinating and growing on the seed. The very good website David sourced is that of the Ontario Rock Garden Society (a NARGS chapter), so the information is aimed at gardeners in a northern, continental climate who would not be able to keep winter-growing seedlings without heat. Jane McGary Portland, Oregon, USA On 3/27/2015 5:49 AM, David Pilling wrote: > Hi, > > On 27/03/2015 12:11, Travis O wrote: >> I just received seed of Prospero autumnale from SX2 (559 & 560), and >> I am not sure when to sow it? > > > http://www.onrockgarden.com/germination-guide/scilla-autumnalis > > says: > > Scilla autumnalis > > Germination Tips > Sow @ 4°C for 3 months, then place @ 20°C for 3 months. > Special Care: seedlings must remain at 4°C for full 3 months, then > gradually raise temp to 20°C > > > > > > From pbs@lists.ibiblio.org Fri, 27 Mar 2015 11:17:04 -0700 Message-Id: <1475168264.3750354.1427478787660.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> From: Gordon Hogenson via pbs Subject: Prospero seed Date: Fri, 27 Mar 2015 17:53:07 +0000 (UTC) I sowed Prospero autumnale last fall indoors, intending to follow the Ontario Rock Garden Society web site's advice and stratify them outdoors over the winter here in the Seattle area.  But, it was a while before I got around to moving the flat outdoors, and by then they had begun to germinate (at room temperature without any cold treatment). I kept them in a cold frame through the winter, where they survived frost, but were protected.   From: Jane McGary To: Pacific Bulb Society Sent: Friday, March 27, 2015 10:34 AM Subject: Re: [pbs] Prospero seed One need not follow the precise instructions for germinating Prospero autumnale (formerly Scilla autumnalis, and how did Prospero get neutered anyway?). It is native to climates similar to where the inquiring member, Travis, lives, and it is a kind of pioneer plant that appears to self-sow freely in roadside gravel and thin grassland. The seed matures very quickly (my plants originate from seed I collected from a colony that had both flowers and ripe seed) and probably germinates quickly too during the rainy season. Had I received this seed I would have sown it now, keeping it in a cool position and moist for a couple of months. Otherwise, Travis could store it dry until September for sowing. An unheated greenhouse would be suitable for germinating and growing on the seed. The very good website David sourced is that of the Ontario Rock Garden Society (a NARGS chapter), so the information is aimed at gardeners in a northern, continental climate who would not be able to keep winter-growing seedlings without heat. Jane McGary Portland, Oregon, USA On 3/27/2015 5:49 AM, David Pilling wrote: > Hi, > > On 27/03/2015 12:11, Travis O wrote: >> I just received seed of Prospero autumnale from SX2 (559 & 560), and >> I am not sure when to sow it? > > > http://www.onrockgarden.com/germination-guide/scilla-autumnalis > > says: > > Scilla autumnalis > > Germination Tips > Sow @ 4°C for 3 months, then place @ 20°C for 3 months. > Special Care:  seedlings must remain at 4°C for full 3 months, then > gradually raise temp to 20°C > > > > > > _______________________________________________ pbs mailing list pbs@lists.ibiblio.org http://pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php http://pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki From ds429@frontier.com Fri, 27 Mar 2015 12:17:04 -0700 Message-Id: <454034.66557.bm@smtp215.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> From: Subject: Prospero seed Date: Fri, 27 Mar 2015 18:26:59 +0000 Jane wrote: and how did Prospero get neutered anyway?). Caliban did it. Sent from Windows Mail From: Jane McGary Sent: ‎Friday‎, ‎March‎ ‎27‎, ‎2015 ‎1‎:‎34‎ ‎PM To: Pacific Bulb Society One need not follow the precise instructions for germinating Prospero autumnale (formerly Scilla autumnalis, and how did Prospero get neutered anyway?). It is native to climates similar to where the inquiring member, Travis, lives, and it is a kind of pioneer plant that appears to self-sow freely in roadside gravel and thin grassland. The seed matures very quickly (my plants originate from seed I collected from a colony that had both flowers and ripe seed) and probably germinates quickly too during the rainy season. Had I received this seed I would have sown it now, keeping it in a cool position and moist for a couple of months. Otherwise, Travis could store it dry until September for sowing. An unheated greenhouse would be suitable for germinating and growing on the seed. The very good website David sourced is that of the Ontario Rock Garden Society (a NARGS chapter), so the information is aimed at gardeners in a northern, continental climate who would not be able to keep winter-growing seedlings without heat. Jane McGary Portland, Oregon, USA On 3/27/2015 5:49 AM, David Pilling wrote: > Hi, > > On 27/03/2015 12:11, Travis O wrote: >> I just received seed of Prospero autumnale from SX2 (559 & 560), and >> I am not sure when to sow it? > > > http://www.onrockgarden.com/germination-guide/scilla-autumnalis > > says: > > Scilla autumnalis > > Germination Tips > Sow @ 4°C for 3 months, then place @ 20°C for 3 months. > Special Care: seedlings must remain at 4°C for full 3 months, then > gradually raise temp to 20°C > > > > > > _______________________________________________ pbs mailing list pbs@lists.ibiblio.org http://pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php http://pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki From jamesamckenney@verizon.net Fri, 27 Mar 2015 13:17:04 -0700 Message-Id: <361349603.3153278.1427483872212.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> From: Jim McKenney Subject: A question for those who grow Chionodoxa... Date: Fri, 27 Mar 2015 19:17:52 +0000 (UTC) Travis,I just took a look at The Kew List, and all former species of Chionodoxa have been moved to Scilla. And more than the two you mention are retained as species, just as Scilla and not as Chionodoxa. Jim McKenneyMontgomery County, Maryland, USA, USDA zone 7, where I cross pollinated Merendera sobolifera and Colchicum  hungaricum yesterday: wish me luck! From: Travis O To: "pbs@lists.ibiblio.org" Sent: Friday, March 27, 2015 12:09 PM Subject: [pbs] A question for those who grow Chionodoxa... Hi, I am attempting to simplify a way to sort out the different species of Chionodoxa based on floral morphology. The available keys (including the European Flora, thank you Jim Waddick!) separate species by variable characteristics like flower size, height, color, and flower number with only minor attention morphological details. These characteristics can be manipulated with differing growing conditions (for example: Shade vs. Sun, fertile vs. infertile soil, etc.) I hypothesize that species can be differentiated by the filaments, at least into groups (if not to species level). My hypothesis is as follows: "Luciliae types" have filaments of unequal length, parallel edges. "Forbesii types" have even filaments with tapered edges. I would like to test this by examining  pictures of the different species with the filaments in focus, preferably macro shots. I am requesting photos from PBS list subscribers who grow any of the species and are confident with their identity (i.e. you grow them in pots, or only possess a single species). Kew only recognizes two species, C. luciliae and C. forbesii, but I would be interested in any species available. If anyone has pictured they can share, please contact me privately at enoster@hotmail.com I will share the results here, and if I learn anything useful I'll add the information to the PBS wiki. Thanks! Travis Owen Rogue River, OR amateuranthecologist.blogspot.com _______________________________________________ pbs mailing list pbs@lists.ibiblio.org http://pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php http://pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki From klazina1@gmail.com Fri, 27 Mar 2015 13:17:04 -0700 Message-Id: <5515B0A3.4000009@gmail.com> From: Ina Crossley Subject: Scilla autumnalis seed (Prospero autumnale) Date: Sat, 28 Mar 2015 08:33:55 +1300 I sowed mine in the ordinary way, and kept the container in the shade outside, and a sheltered position so it would only get water when I watered it myself. They have germinated just fine, I never considered they might not. I live in the equivalent of Zone 10 Ina Crossley Auckland New Zealand From sujithart@gmail.com Fri, 27 Mar 2015 14:17:03 -0700 Message-Id: From: Sujit Hart Subject: tulipa Date: Fri, 27 Mar 2015 16:05:59 -0500 A few years ago I planted some Tulipa clusiana in my front yard. The next year they came back but with less flowers and this year I have not seen any flower at all. Is there anything I can do to get the flowers back next year. Suchit Hart Houston, Texas From penstemon@Q.com Fri, 27 Mar 2015 14:17:03 -0700 Message-Id: <5E6D05D0282E4FC1A1311C55FEE79878@bobPC> From: "penstemon" Subject: tulipa Date: Fri, 27 Mar 2015 15:16:19 -0600 >A few years ago I planted some Tulipa clusiana in my front yard. The next year they came back but with less flowers and this year I have not seen any flower at all. Is there anything I can do to get the flowers back next year. I think the answer is to plant new bulbs. Or wait until the several million seedlings (at least in my garden) become old enough to flower. Bob Nold Denver, Colorado, USA From pbs@lists.ibiblio.org Fri, 27 Mar 2015 15:17:05 -0700 Message-Id: <704983930.3851750.1427491454966.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> From: Gordon Hogenson via pbs Subject: tulipa Date: Fri, 27 Mar 2015 21:24:14 +0000 (UTC) Tulips require a period of cold temperatures in winter to induce flowering. In Houston they might not be getting enough winter cold. I suppose you could dig them up and store them in the refrigerator (that is what bulb merchants do for bulbs sold in the South) for a few months.     _______________________________________________ pbs mailing list pbs@lists.ibiblio.org http://pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php http://pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki From enna1921@live.ca Fri, 27 Mar 2015 19:17:03 -0700 Message-Id: From: Barbara McMullen Subject: Paciic Bulb Society BX 374 CLOSED Date: Fri, 27 Mar 2015 22:13:44 -0400 That's very nice of you, Fred. Barbara -----Original Message----- From: Fred Thorne Sent: Thursday, March 26, 2015 7:35 PM To: Pacific Bulb Society Subject: Re: [pbs] Paciic Bulb Society BX 374 CLOSED Hi Dell...you can cancel my order and send to another member. Thank you! WBR Fred -----Original Message----- From: ds429 Sent: Thursday, March 26, 2015 12:31 PM To: pbs Subject: [pbs] Paciic Bulb Society BX 374 CLOSED As I said, the supplies are very small. There are already too many orders. Sorry! Packages will go out in a week or so. Enjoy, Dell Dell Sherk, PBS BX _______________________________________________ pbs mailing list pbs@lists.ibiblio.org http://pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php http://pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki From pharcher@mindspring.com Sun, 29 Mar 2015 01:17:06 -0700 Message-Id: <4751103.1427615185595.JavaMail.root@mswamui-chipeau.atl.sa.earthlink.net> From: Paul Archer Subject: Iris virginica 'Contraband Girl' Date: Sun, 29 Mar 2015 03:46:25 -0400 (GMT-04:00) So what is the final verdict? I'm sure we all agree that what is being sold is I. virginica and that is what the Registration refers to even though only at a height of 36", which isn't all that short by any means for I. virginica ....or even for a Louisiana. I guess the key would be how long has the current cultivar been in distribution and can it be reasonably proven? Has the Registrar contacted anyone with their opinion or final answer? From jwaddick@kc.rr.com Sun, 29 Mar 2015 08:17:03 -0700 Message-Id: From: James Waddick Subject: Weedy Tulips Date: Sun, 29 Mar 2015 09:39:39 -0500 Dear PBSers, I have written on this topic before seeking news and help. It is always nice when you can pick you weeds. Most large flowered tulips are simply deer food here, but a couple of species have proven to be regular bloomers and very happy weeds. Tulipa sylvestris runs rampantly in the shade, but less so in sun and blooms reliably. It also out grows deer damage and manages to produce random flowers. Tulips whittallii is a more recent addition from Jim McK’s suggestion. It too runs happily and blooms in sun. I am not as fond of its duller terracotta colored flowers as I am of T. sylvestris bright yellow. Most other tulips that manage to survive remain as tight clumps. So I am wondering if any one has experience with stoloniferous tulips that run around the garden, bloom regularly and are hardy to Zone 5/6. I know I am asking a lot. Thanks for suggestions. Jim W. James Waddick 8871 NW Brostrom Rd Kansas City, MO 64152-2711 USA Phone 816-746-1949 _______________________________________________ pbs mailing list pbs@lists.ibiblio.org http://pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php http://pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki From arlen.jose@verizon.net Sun, 29 Mar 2015 08:17:03 -0700 Message-Id: <000c01d06a32$3b6d43f0$b247cbd0$@verizon.net> From: "Fred Biasella" Subject: Weedy Tulips Date: Sun, 29 Mar 2015 11:08:36 -0400 Hi Jim, T. clusiana is a great candidate. I have had this very pretty tulip in my garden along the sunnier side of my garden, for many years and it seems like every year it creeps along a little bit further. Just the other day I was able to finally enter the garden from the incredible snow we've had and there they are, poking their little heads out of the ground. Hopefully father winter will cut the $%&# and let spring behave like spring so they can bloom before it gets too warm. Warm Regards, Fred Cambridge (Boston) MA USDA Zone 6...that felt more like Siberia this year!! -----Original Message----- From: pbs [mailto:pbs-bounces@lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf Of James Waddick Sent: Sunday, March 29, 2015 10:40 AM To: Pacific Bulb Society Subject: [pbs] Weedy Tulips Dear PBSers, I have written on this topic before seeking news and help. It is always nice when you can pick you weeds. Most large flowered tulips are simply deer food here, but a couple of species have proven to be regular bloomers and very happy weeds. Tulipa sylvestris runs rampantly in the shade, but less so in sun and blooms reliably. It also out grows deer damage and manages to produce random flowers. Tulips whittallii is a more recent addition from Jim McK’s suggestion. It too runs happily and blooms in sun. I am not as fond of its duller terracotta colored flowers as I am of T. sylvestris bright yellow. Most other tulips that manage to survive remain as tight clumps. So I am wondering if any one has experience with stoloniferous tulips that run around the garden, bloom regularly and are hardy to Zone 5/6. I know I am asking a lot. Thanks for suggestions. Jim W. James Waddick 8871 NW Brostrom Rd Kansas City, MO 64152-2711 USA Phone 816-746-1949 _______________________________________________ pbs mailing list pbs@lists.ibiblio.org http://pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php http://pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki From enoster@hotmail.com Sun, 29 Mar 2015 08:17:03 -0700 Message-Id: From: Travis O Subject: Chionodoxa Date: Sun, 29 Mar 2015 08:12:51 -0700 "Travis,I just took a look at The Kew List, and all former species of Chionodoxa have been moved to Scilla. And more than the two you mention are retained as species, just as Scilla and not as Chionodoxa. Jim McKenneyMontgomery County, Maryland, USA, USDA zone 7, where I cross pollinated Merendera sobolifera and Colchicum ?hungaricum yesterday: wish me luck!" Jim, This is true, and independent phylogenic studies have justified the inclusion of Chionodoxa into Scilla sensu latissimo (although it is pretty clear that Chionodoxa is morphologically distinct). Whatever they are called, it is still difficult to tell the species apart, especially for the amateur like me. It doesn't help that the names are mixed up by bulb sellers. The two keys I have found were mostly reliant on characteristics that rely on a basis for comparison (like, for example, two different species to compare side by side). I am pretty sure I'm onto something with the differences of the filaments of at least some of the species. C. luciliae (Scilla luciliae) has filaments of unequal lengths, not tapered; C. forbesii (Scilla forbesii) has filaments of equal length and are usually tapered. Other species may be similar, and can be divided into groups (C. nana in "Luciliae" group; C. sardensis into "Forbesii" group). But I've only observed a small number of plants, so I'm not really sure. I doubt it has any taxonomic value anyway, this is just for the gardener (and myself) to be able to see a single flower and know what it is. Besides, taxonomy apparently doesn't care about physical characteristics any more and is instead in favor or DNA analysis to decide what plants should be called. As Jack Horner put it (TED Talks: Where are the baby dinosaurs?), "Scientists like to name things". Travis Owen Rogue River, OR amateuranthecologist.blogspot.com From rjrussell@cot.net Sun, 29 Mar 2015 09:17:04 -0700 Message-Id: <98A186CD02F649C4A42FC5BEC5AF5703@DELLPC> From: "Joey Russell" Subject: Weedy Tulips Date: Sun, 29 Mar 2015 08:56:51 -0700 Hello! I have also planted and am enjoying T. sylvestris and T. whittallii this year thanks to James Waddick's suggestion. Thank-you again for brightening my spring! This is only the first year so my hope is they will creep along as suggested. T. clusiana will be on the list for this year! I'll keep my eyes open for other suggestions as well. I'm hauling soil to raise beds trying to create better drainage like crazy! Sincerely, Joey Russell No. CA, Siskiyou County zone 6 where it is zone 7 this year because all the weather is in the eastern part of the US! It seems that March came in like a lamb and is going out like one too. -----Original Message----- From: Fred Biasella Sent: Sunday, March 29, 2015 8:08 AM To: 'Pacific Bulb Society' Subject: Re: [pbs] Weedy Tulips Hi Jim, T. clusiana is a great candidate. I have had this very pretty tulip in my garden along the sunnier side of my garden, for many years and it seems like every year it creeps along a little bit further. Just the other day I was able to finally enter the garden from the incredible snow we've had and there they are, poking their little heads out of the ground. Hopefully father winter will cut the $%&# and let spring behave like spring so they can bloom before it gets too warm. Warm Regards, Fred Cambridge (Boston) MA USDA Zone 6...that felt more like Siberia this year!! -----Original Message----- From: pbs [mailto:pbs-bounces@lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf Of James Waddick Sent: Sunday, March 29, 2015 10:40 AM To: Pacific Bulb Society Subject: [pbs] Weedy Tulips Dear PBSers, I have written on this topic before seeking news and help. It is always nice when you can pick you weeds. Most large flowered tulips are simply deer food here, but a couple of species have proven to be regular bloomers and very happy weeds. Tulipa sylvestris runs rampantly in the shade, but less so in sun and blooms reliably. It also out grows deer damage and manages to produce random flowers. Tulips whittallii is a more recent addition from Jim McK’s suggestion. It too runs happily and blooms in sun. I am not as fond of its duller terracotta colored flowers as I am of T. sylvestris bright yellow. Most other tulips that manage to survive remain as tight clumps. So I am wondering if any one has experience with stoloniferous tulips that run around the garden, bloom regularly and are hardy to Zone 5/6. I know I am asking a lot. Thanks for suggestions. Jim W. James Waddick 8871 NW Brostrom Rd Kansas City, MO 64152-2711 USA Phone 816-746-1949 _______________________________________________ pbs mailing list pbs@lists.ibiblio.org http://pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php http://pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki _______________________________________________ pbs mailing list pbs@lists.ibiblio.org http://pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php http://pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki From jwaddick@kc.rr.com Sun, 29 Mar 2015 09:17:04 -0700 Message-Id: <8DA1C395-CF5C-47DF-BA63-3FE9776E716D@kc.rr.com> From: James Waddick Subject: Weedy Tulips - T. clusiana Date: Sun, 29 Mar 2015 11:00:25 -0500 Hi Fred, Thanks. I’ve grown T. clusiana for years and although it is described as stoloiferous and you mention this, it has remained fairly stead fast in my garden. I read on the web some where that there are both stoloniferous and non-stoloniferous types of the species. Dutch growers prefer the non-stoloniferous selections as they are easier to control in the fields. My ‘Lady Jane’ seems to be non-stoloniferous. I’ve had it for years and like it a lot, but it does not run for me. T. saxatilis is also mentioned as stoloniferous, but I have grown this and it reamins in a tight clump. Perhaps there are other more wandering selections. and ps: Hope your snow melts sooner than later. You are way behind on enjoying spring. Think warm sunny April. Thanks Jim W. > On Mar 29, 2015, at 10:08 AM, Fred Biasella wrote: > > Hi Jim, > > T. clusiana is a great candidate. I have had this very pretty tulip in my garden along the sunnier side of my garden, for many years and it seems like every year it creeps along a little bit further. > Subject: [pbs] Weedy Tulips > > Dear PBSers, > > I have written on this topic before seeking news and help. It is always nice when you can pick you weeds. > > So I am wondering if any one has experience with stoloniferous tulips that run around the garden, bloom regularly and are hardy to Zone 5/6. I know I am asking a lot. > > Thanks for suggestions. Jim W. > James Waddick 8871 NW Brostrom Rd Kansas City, MO 64152-2711 USA Phone 816-746-1949 _______________________________________________ pbs mailing list pbs@lists.ibiblio.org http://pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php http://pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki From penstemon@Q.com Sun, 29 Mar 2015 10:17:04 -0700 Message-Id: <65784E87D0584FEF9712C7CD326CEC5F@bobPC> From: "penstemon" Subject: Weedy Tulips Date: Sun, 29 Mar 2015 10:20:24 -0600 So I am wondering if any one has experience with stoloniferous tulips that run around the garden, bloom regularly and are hardy to Zone 5/6. I know I am asking a lot. There is a stoloniferous form of Tulipa montana. It doesn’t run, though; it walks. (To be precise, the label says “Tulipa aff. montana, stoloniferous”.) Tulipa tarda, here, produces thousands of seedlings, like T. clusiana here, but they flower within a couple of years. Bob Nold Denver, Colorado, USA _______________________________________________ pbs mailing list pbs@lists.ibiblio.org http://pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php http://pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki From janemcgary@earthlink.net Sun, 29 Mar 2015 10:17:04 -0700 Message-Id: <55182CAE.9080601@earthlink.net> From: Jane McGary Subject: Weedy Tulips Date: Sun, 29 Mar 2015 09:47:42 -0700 Tulipa montana, mentioned by Bob Nold, does appear to be "walking" in a raised bed here. At least, I think it is T. montana -- it was one of the "sp." seed collections from western Iran sold by the Archibalds some years ago. The seed collections of Kurt Vickery and his colleagues include many from wild Tulipa populations. They seem so far to be easy to grow on, and I'm going to have a raised bed built to accommodate them and some alpines. Am still pondering about whether to cover it in winter, but perhaps adequate drainage will allow the plants to survive even a Portland rainy winter. Jane McGary\ Portland, Oregon, USA On 3/29/2015 9:20 AM, penstemon wrote: > So I am wondering if any one has experience with stoloniferous tulips that run around the garden, bloom regularly and are hardy to Zone 5/6. I know I am asking a lot. > > > There is a stoloniferous form of Tulipa montana. It doesn’t run, though; it walks. (To be precise, the label says “Tulipa aff. montana, stoloniferous”.) > > Tulipa tarda, here, produces thousands of seedlings, like T. clusiana here, but they flower within a couple of years. > > _______________________________________________ pbs mailing list pbs@lists.ibiblio.org http://pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php http://pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki From jamesamckenney@verizon.net Sun, 29 Mar 2015 11:17:05 -0700 Message-Id: <573018863.668489.1427652411068.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> From: Jim McKenney Subject: Weedy Tulips - T. clusiana Date: Sun, 29 Mar 2015 18:06:51 +0000 (UTC) If you have come to tulips only within the last ten or twenty  years or so, what follows might help you to put the name Tulipa clusiana into context. In short, the botanical name Tulipa clusiana does not mean the same thing now that it meant as recently as twenty or thirty years ago. Jim Waddick's plaint about the lack of a stoloniferous nature in his Tulipa clusiana is probably explained by his plants not being the Tulipa clusiana of the pre-twenty-first century literature.  From the time of Clusius in the late sixteenth century until late in the twentieth century, the plant which acquired the botanical name Tulipa clusiana was one of the most widely grown and loved small tulips. It was well known for being stoloniferous and for rarely setting seed (it was eventually discovered to be a pentaploid). Even in the early twentieth century, when very few wild or species tulips were listed in catalogs, it was offered.  Sometime in the late twentieth century this plant began to disappear from catalogs - or perhaps a better way of saying that is that although the name persisted in catalogs, the plant sent out under that name was a look-alike something else. At the same time, revisions in the taxonomy of tulips began to associate formerly disparate names with the name Tulipa clusiana. For instance, the tulip long known and grown as Tulipa stellata   came to be listed as a Tulipa clusiana variant.  And Tulipa stellata chrysantha (which has yellow and red flowers) also became a Tulipa clusiana variant.  This, by the way, is a very stoloniferous tulip and should be tried by those who want that quality. It's currently sold under the name Tulipa clusiana chrysantha. If you are researching it in older books, look for Tulipa chrysantha or Tulipa stellata chrysantha. Keep in mind that the true, original clone of Tulipa clusiana of gardens is not a true species in the modern sense (i.e. it is unknown in the wild as a sexually reproducing population). However, it is obviously very closely related to and presumably derived from one of the other tulips which modern taxonomists include under the name Tulipa clusiana in the contemporary sense (a likely candidate for the source of the pentaploid original clone of Tulipa clusiana is the plant once known as Tulipa stellata but not the form known as T. stellata chrysantha).  And as the earliest named of these tulips, its name becomes the name for the entire group (the species name for the entire group) in terms of modern botanical nomenclature.  Modern look-alike clones include 'Peppermint Stick' and  'Lady Jane'; similar to these but distinguished by pale yellow (instead of white) inner petals is 'Cynthia'. I've grown all of these (if the names of my supplier can be believed) and have not noticed any of them to be noticeably stoloniferous. They do persist well under my conditions.  The true, original clone of Tulipa clusiana of gardens has a distinctive growth habit: it forms flat rosettes of short gray-green leaves with a red edge; these leaves lie flat on the ground when they appear and (but don't hold me to the timing of this part) go through the winter in that state. When the stems elongate in the spring, they take some of the leaves with them.  If you're in an old garden in late winter and see such flat rosettes about four inches in diameter, you might have stumbled on the true, original clone of Tulipa clusiana. My very few plants were acquired when a friend was showing me around her old garden, and I spotted the leaf rosettes: luckily for me she let me dig a few.  Jim McKenneyMontgomery County, Maryland, USA, USDA zone 7, where we had a nasty drop into the 20s last night and this morning: after that, even the snowdrops look drunk.  _______________________________________________ pbs mailing list pbs@lists.ibiblio.org http://pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php http://pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki From Chad.Schroter@sandisk.com Sun, 29 Mar 2015 14:17:05 -0700 Message-Id: <379B59B5-5874-4CC6-974A-F0C677FBCD40@sandisk.com> From: Chad Schroter Subject: Oxalis pes-caprae Date: Sun, 29 Mar 2015 18:34:24 +0000 In my experience the gophers move the bulbs around, and collect them in caches. Every fall I discover them when a hundred or so bulbs burst through the earth in a single spot. Chad Schroter > On Mar 26, 2015, at 5:37 PM, Mary Sue Ittner wrote: > > My husband found this article about this pest: > https://baynature.org/articles/a-natural-history-of-that-little-yellow-flower-thats-everywhere-right-now/ > > I've been wondering how it can turn up in places I haven't seen it before and now I have learned that besides taking the tags out of my pots the scrub jays relocate it. Sigh. > > _______________________________________________ > pbs mailing list > pbs@lists.ibiblio.org > http://pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php > http://pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki ________________________________ PLEASE NOTE: The information contained in this electronic mail message is intended only for the use of the designated recipient(s) named above. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that you have received this message in error and that any review, dissemination, distribution, or copying of this message is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please notify the sender by telephone or e-mail (as shown above) immediately and destroy any and all copies of this message in your possession (whether hard copies or electronically stored copies). From rdevries@comcast.net Sun, 29 Mar 2015 14:17:05 -0700 Message-Id: From: Rimmer deVries Subject: Weedy Tulips - T. clusiana Date: Sun, 29 Mar 2015 16:26:51 -0400 Jim Can you provide a link to a photo of the true Tulipa clusiana winter leaf rosettes. Thank you Rimmer > On Mar 29, 2015, at 2:06 PM, Jim McKenney wrote: > > If you have come to tulips only within the last ten or twenty years or so, what follows might help you to put the name Tulipa clusiana into context. In short, the botanical name Tulipa clusiana does not mean the same thing now that it meant as recently as twenty or thirty years ago. > Jim Waddick's plaint about the lack of a stoloniferous nature in his Tulipa clusiana is probably explained by his plants not being the Tulipa clusiana of the pre-twenty-first century literature. > From the time of Clusius in the late sixteenth century until late in the twentieth century, the plant which acquired the botanical name Tulipa clusiana was one of the most widely grown and loved small tulips. It was well known for being stoloniferous and for rarely setting seed (it was eventually discovered to be a pentaploid). Even in the early twentieth century, when very few wild or species tulips were listed in catalogs, it was offered. > Sometime in the late twentieth century this plant began to disappear from catalogs - or perhaps a better way of saying that is that although the name persisted in catalogs, the plant sent out under that name was a look-alike something else. At the same time, revisions in the taxonomy of tulips began to associate formerly disparate names with the name Tulipa clusiana. For instance, the tulip long known and grown as Tulipa stellata came to be listed as a Tulipa clusiana variant. And Tulipa stellata chrysantha (which has yellow and red flowers) also became a Tulipa clusiana variant. This, by the way, is a very stoloniferous tulip and should be tried by those who want that quality. It's currently sold under the name Tulipa clusiana chrysantha. If you are researching it in older books, look for Tulipa chrysantha or Tulipa stellata chrysantha. Keep in mind that the true, original clone of Tulipa clusiana of gardens is not a true species in the modern sense (i.e. it is unknown in the wild as a sexually reproducing population). However, it is obviously very closely related to and presumably derived from one of the other tulips which modern taxonomists include under the name Tulipa clusiana in the contemporary sense (a likely candidate for the source of the pentaploid original clone of Tulipa clusiana is the plant once known as Tulipa stellata but not the form known as T. stellata chrysantha). And as the earliest named of these tulips, its name becomes the name for the entire group (the species name for the entire group) in terms of modern botanical nomenclature. > Modern look-alike clones include 'Peppermint Stick' and 'Lady Jane'; similar to these but distinguished by pale yellow (instead of white) inner petals is 'Cynthia'. I've grown all of these (if the names of my supplier can be believed) and have not noticed any of them to be noticeably stoloniferous. They do persist well under my conditions. > The true, original clone of Tulipa clusiana of gardens has a distinctive growth habit: it forms flat rosettes of short gray-green leaves with a red edge; these leaves lie flat on the ground when they appear and (but don't hold me to the timing of this part) go through the winter in that state. When the stems elongate in the spring, they take some of the leaves with them. If you're in an old garden in late winter and see such flat rosettes about four inches in diameter, you might have stumbled on the true, original clone of Tulipa clusiana. My very few plants were acquired when a friend was showing me around her old garden, and I spotted the leaf rosettes: luckily for me she let me dig a few. > Jim McKenneyMontgomery County, Maryland, USA, USDA zone 7, where we had a nasty drop into the 20s last night and this morning: after that, even the snowdrops look drunk. > > > > > _______________________________________________ > pbs mailing list > pbs@lists.ibiblio.org > http://pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php > http://pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki From jamesamckenney@verizon.net Sun, 29 Mar 2015 14:17:05 -0700 Message-Id: <1466515680.718036.1427661383489.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> From: Jim McKenney Subject: Weedy Tulips - T. clusiana Date: Sun, 29 Mar 2015 20:36:23 +0000 (UTC) I might have such a photo, Rimmer, and if I can locate it I'll post it to the PBS wiki.My access to that garden was long ago - several cameras ago so-to-speak, and over the years I've used several different systems to keep track of photos. My recollection is that it was a pre-digital photo.The garden still exists, although my friend who owned it at the time sold it years ago. And I have no idea how or if the new owners maintained it. I'll see what I can do. Jim McKenney From: Rimmer deVries To: Pacific Bulb Society Sent: Sunday, March 29, 2015 4:26 PM Subject: Re: [pbs] Weedy Tulips - T. clusiana Jim Can you provide a link to a photo of the true Tulipa clusiana winter leaf rosettes. Thank you Rimmer > On Mar 29, 2015, at 2:06 PM, Jim McKenney wrote: > > If you have come to tulips only within the last ten or twenty  years or so, what follows might help you to put the name Tulipa clusiana into context. In short, the botanical name Tulipa clusiana does not mean the same thing now that it meant as recently as twenty or thirty years ago. > Jim Waddick's plaint about the lack of a stoloniferous nature in his Tulipa clusiana is probably explained by his plants not being the Tulipa clusiana of the pre-twenty-first century literature. > From the time of Clusius in the late sixteenth century until late in the twentieth century, the plant which acquired the botanical name Tulipa clusiana was one of the most widely grown and loved small tulips. It was well known for being stoloniferous and for rarely setting seed (it was eventually discovered to be a pentaploid). Even in the early twentieth century, when very few wild or species tulips were listed in catalogs, it was offered. > Sometime in the late twentieth century this plant began to disappear from catalogs - or perhaps a better way of saying that is that although the name persisted in catalogs, the plant sent out under that name was a look-alike something else. At the same time, revisions in the taxonomy of tulips began to associate formerly disparate names with the name Tulipa clusiana. For instance, the tulip long known and grown as Tulipa stellata  came to be listed as a Tulipa clusiana variant.  And Tulipa stellata chrysantha (which has yellow and red flowers) also became a Tulipa clusiana variant.  This, by the way, is a very stoloniferous tulip and should be tried by those who want that quality. It's currently sold under the name Tulipa clusiana chrysantha. If you are researching it in older books, look for Tulipa chrysantha or Tulipa stellata chrysantha. Keep in mind that the true, original clone of Tulipa clusiana of gardens is not a true species in the modern sense (i.e. it is unknown   in the wild as a sexually reproducing population). However, it is obviously very closely related to and presumably derived from one of the other tulips which modern taxonomists include under the name Tulipa clusiana in the contemporary sense (a likely candidate for the source of the pentaploid original clone of Tulipa clusiana is the plant once known as Tulipa stellata but not the form known as T. stellata chrysantha).  And as the earliest named of these tulips, its name becomes the name for the entire group (the species name for the entire group) in terms of modern botanical nomenclature. > Modern look-alike clones include 'Peppermint Stick' and  'Lady Jane'; similar to these but distinguished by pale yellow (instead of white) inner petals is 'Cynthia'. I've grown all of these (if the names of my supplier can be believed) and have not noticed any of them to be noticeably stoloniferous. They do persist well under my conditions. > The true, original clone of Tulipa clusiana of gardens has a distinctive growth habit: it forms flat rosettes of short gray-green leaves with a red edge; these leaves lie flat on the ground when they appear and (but don't hold me to the timing of this part) go through the winter in that state. When the stems elongate in the spring, they take some of the leaves with them.  If you're in an old garden in late winter and see such flat rosettes about four inches in diameter, you might have stumbled on the true, original clone of Tulipa clusiana. My very few plants were acquired when a friend was showing me around her old garden, and I spotted the leaf rosettes: luckily for me she let me dig a few. > Jim McKenneyMontgomery County, Maryland, USA, USDA zone 7, where we had a nasty drop into the 20s last night and this morning: after that, even the snowdrops look drunk. > > > > > _______________________________________________ > pbs mailing list > pbs@lists.ibiblio.org > http://pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php > http://pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki _______________________________________________ pbs mailing list pbs@lists.ibiblio.org http://pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php http://pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki From penstemon@Q.com Sun, 29 Mar 2015 14:17:05 -0700 Message-Id: <8ADDA961B11F46948BD2B47356C7A0C6@bobPC> From: "penstemon" Subject: Weedy Tulips - T. clusiana Date: Sun, 29 Mar 2015 14:38:19 -0600 Tulipa clusiana DC = T. stellata Hook., “very stoloniferous”, “its true home being further [sic] east in Iran (in orchards around Shiraz, Afghanistan, (Kabul), Pakistan (Chitral) at 1250-2500 m.” The red and white one. Tulipa clusiana f. dinae Raamsd. = T. clusiana var. chrysantha Sealy; T. stellata Hook. and T. stellata chrysantha Hook. The red and yellow one. (from The Genus Tulipa, by Diana Everett) Bob Nold Denver, Colorado, USA who went out to dig up some very young T. clusiana to see whether or not they were stoloniferous and abandoned the project at a depth of 15 cm. _______________________________________________ pbs mailing list pbs@lists.ibiblio.org http://pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php http://pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki From jwaddick@kc.rr.com Sun, 29 Mar 2015 15:17:05 -0700 Message-Id: <78B63242-F7E9-4E4F-85A7-D501FAF3DA3A@kc.rr.com> From: James Waddick Subject: Weedy Tulips - from seed ? Date: Sun, 29 Mar 2015 16:43:44 -0500 > On Mar 29, 2015, at 11:20 AM, penstemon wrote: > > Tulipa tarda, here, produces thousands of seedlings, like T. clusiana here, but they flower within a couple of years. > I may be totally oblivious, but not one of my tulips every produces viable seed and spreads that way. My climate is very severe in summer and winter. I have tried untold hundreds of seed of T. sprengeri without a single sprout showing up in a vafriety of seed trials. None of my stoloniferous tulips sets seeds, none of my non-stoloniferous tulips set seed. Not tarda, not clusiana (or whatever I have), not nuttin’. More weeds!! Jim James Waddick 8871 NW Brostrom Rd Kansas City, MO 64152-2711 USA Phone 816-746-1949 _______________________________________________ pbs mailing list pbs@lists.ibiblio.org http://pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php http://pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki From penstemon@Q.com Sun, 29 Mar 2015 16:17:11 -0700 Message-Id: <47ACDA9C01DB4BD19A1E7AE661F51836@bobPC> From: "penstemon" Subject: Weedy Tulips - from seed ? Date: Sun, 29 Mar 2015 16:22:34 -0600 >I may be totally oblivious, but not one of my tulips every produces viable seed and spreads that way. My climate is very severe in summer and winter. I have tried untold hundreds of seed of T. sprengeri without a single sprout showing up in a variety of seed trials. Oh, Kansas City isn’t all that bad. The eastern edge of the Rockies was colder than any place on the planet, except the South Pole, last November. A drop from +17C to –25C in less than forty-eight hours. Casper, Wyoming, was about –35C at the time. And then it happened again in December. (I’m not complaining. I stayed inside.) I bet it’s the smoke from all the barbecue places in K.C. that prevents tulips from setting seed. Bob Nold Denver, Colorado, USA _______________________________________________ pbs mailing list pbs@lists.ibiblio.org http://pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php http://pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki From jamesamckenney@verizon.net Sun, 29 Mar 2015 16:17:11 -0700 Message-Id: <1167753995.764697.1427668528791.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> From: Jim McKenney Subject: Weedy Tulips - T. clusiana Date: Sun, 29 Mar 2015 22:35:28 +0000 (UTC) Bob, I'm not sure what you meant by those =  signs, but The Kew List makes Tulipa stellata a synonym of T. clusiana.  Jim McKenney _______________________________________________ pbs mailing list pbs@lists.ibiblio.org http://pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php http://pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki From penstemon@Q.com Sun, 29 Mar 2015 16:17:11 -0700 Message-Id: From: "penstemon" Subject: Weedy Tulips - T. clusiana Date: Sun, 29 Mar 2015 16:50:10 -0600 Bob, I'm not sure what you meant by those = signs, but The Kew List makes Tulipa stellata a synonym of T. clusiana. Equals. Is the same as. It was, of course, backwards. T. stellata is considered a synonym of T. clusiana. Bob From jamesamckenney@verizon.net Sun, 29 Mar 2015 16:17:11 -0700 Message-Id: <836909767.803803.1427670650753.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> From: Jim McKenney Subject: Weedy Tulips - T. clusiana Date: Sun, 29 Mar 2015 23:10:50 +0000 (UTC) I think we need to make it clear to newbies to this game that those names are not "equals. Is the same as". In the world of formal botanical nomenclature, and in answer to the question "what is the species rank name for these tulips", the answer is "Tulipa clusiana; the tulip sometimes called Tulipa stellata is now also called at the species rank Tulipa clusiana". In the world of horticulture, the answer is different, at least for those who are trying to interpret the name Tulipa clusiana in older books. Although named at species rank, the old original clone called Tulipa clusiana was not a species in the modern sense. It was (and is) a pentaploid clone. In other words it was only nominally a species.  Formal botanical nomenclature rarely deals with names at the clonal level, but if we had to come up with a name for the original pentaploid clone, Tulipa clusiana 'Clusiana' would work.  For gardeners, the thing to keep in mind is that the combination currently in use, Tulipa clusiana, is the name at species rank for a variety of plants, whereas until recently the combination Tulipa clusiana referred to only one thing, the original clone. A bulb dealer who sells you something called only "Tulipa clusiana" has several different tulips (not all the same color) from which to choose in filling your order.  Jim McKenney _______________________________________________ pbs mailing list pbs@lists.ibiblio.org http://pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php http://pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki From penstemon@Q.com Sun, 29 Mar 2015 17:17:04 -0700 Message-Id: <1E24AA62F2EE4959ADA2206F0EFF3ACE@bobPC> From: "penstemon" Subject: Weedy Tulips - T. clusiana Date: Sun, 29 Mar 2015 17:58:48 -0600 Formal botanical nomenclature rarely deals with names at the clonal level, Fortunately. In order to demonstrate that Tulipa clusiana the pentaploid “non species” is somehow different from T. clusiana the accepted pentaploid species, it would have to be shown that T. clusiana Hort., let’s say (the “non species), is actually the tulip referred to in old gardening books, and is T. clusiana DC, or different from it, or similar to it, and that if it’s to be called a clone, then every bulb is genetically identical and has been since 1607 when Clusius first flowered it. Unless, of course, earlier descriptions of T. clusiana were mistaken. Bob Nold Denver, Colorado USA _______________________________________________ pbs mailing list pbs@lists.ibiblio.org http://pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php http://pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki From enna1921@live.ca Sun, 29 Mar 2015 18:17:05 -0700 Message-Id: From: Barbara McMullen Subject: Weedy Tulips - T. clusiana Date: Sun, 29 Mar 2015 20:17:59 -0400 Interesting. Barbara McMullen, Hamilton, Ontario, Zone 5 (officially but we can grow Zone 6 if below the escarpment). And unfortunately, though the snow is gone, nothing is growing yet. -----Original Message----- From: Jim McKenney Sent: Sunday, March 29, 2015 2:06 PM To: Pacific Bulb Society Subject: Re: [pbs] Weedy Tulips - T. clusiana If you have come to tulips only within the last ten or twenty years or so, what follows might help you to put the name Tulipa clusiana into context. In short, the botanical name Tulipa clusiana does not mean the same thing now that it meant as recently as twenty or thirty years ago. Jim Waddick's plaint about the lack of a stoloniferous nature in his Tulipa clusiana is probably explained by his plants not being the Tulipa clusiana of the pre-twenty-first century literature. From the time of Clusius in the late sixteenth century until late in the twentieth century, the plant which acquired the botanical name Tulipa clusiana was one of the most widely grown and loved small tulips. It was well known for being stoloniferous and for rarely setting seed (it was eventually discovered to be a pentaploid). Even in the early twentieth century, when very few wild or species tulips were listed in catalogs, it was offered. Sometime in the late twentieth century this plant began to disappear from catalogs - or perhaps a better way of saying that is that although the name persisted in catalogs, the plant sent out under that name was a look-alike something else. At the same time, revisions in the taxonomy of tulips began to associate formerly disparate names with the name Tulipa clusiana. For instance, the tulip long known and grown as Tulipa stellata came to be listed as a Tulipa clusiana variant. And Tulipa stellata chrysantha (which has yellow and red flowers) also became a Tulipa clusiana variant. This, by the way, is a very stoloniferous tulip and should be tried by those who want that quality. It's currently sold under the name Tulipa clusiana chrysantha. If you are researching it in older books, look for Tulipa chrysantha or Tulipa stellata chrysantha. Keep in mind that the true, original clone of Tulipa clusiana of gardens is not a true species in the modern sense (i.e. it is unknown in the wild as a sexually reproducing population). However, it is obviously very closely related to and presumably derived from one of the other tulips which modern taxonomists include under the name Tulipa clusiana in the contemporary sense (a likely candidate for the source of the pentaploid original clone of Tulipa clusiana is the plant once known as Tulipa stellata but not the form known as T. stellata chrysantha). And as the earliest named of these tulips, its name becomes the name for the entire group (the species name for the entire group) in terms of modern botanical nomenclature. Modern look-alike clones include 'Peppermint Stick' and 'Lady Jane'; similar to these but distinguished by pale yellow (instead of white) inner petals is 'Cynthia'. I've grown all of these (if the names of my supplier can be believed) and have not noticed any of them to be noticeably stoloniferous. They do persist well under my conditions. The true, original clone of Tulipa clusiana of gardens has a distinctive growth habit: it forms flat rosettes of short gray-green leaves with a red edge; these leaves lie flat on the ground when they appear and (but don't hold me to the timing of this part) go through the winter in that state. When the stems elongate in the spring, they take some of the leaves with them. If you're in an old garden in late winter and see such flat rosettes about four inches in diameter, you might have stumbled on the true, original clone of Tulipa clusiana. My very few plants were acquired when a friend was showing me around her old garden, and I spotted the leaf rosettes: luckily for me she let me dig a few. Jim McKenneyMontgomery County, Maryland, USA, USDA zone 7, where we had a nasty drop into the 20s last night and this morning: after that, even the snowdrops look drunk. _______________________________________________ pbs mailing list pbs@lists.ibiblio.org http://pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php http://pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki From jamesamckenney@verizon.net Sun, 29 Mar 2015 18:17:05 -0700 Message-Id: <360618644.837115.1427675603969.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> From: Jim McKenney Subject: Weedy Tulips - T. clusiana Date: Mon, 30 Mar 2015 00:33:23 +0000 (UTC) Bob Nold wrote:   In order to demonstrate that Tulipa clusiana the pentaploid “non species” is somehow different from T. clusiana the accepted pentaploid species,  I'm not sure what your point is there, but I was not trying to make a distinction between the pentaploid form and some "accepted pentaploid species". I'm not at all sure what you mean by "accepted pentaploid species".  As far as I know, the old original form is the only pentaploid form of Tulipa clusiana. And if that's the case, there there is no pentaploid species, accepted or not, because there is no evidence that the pentaploid form exists as a sexually reproducing form.  You used the word "accepted": did you mean "accepted" in the nomenclatural sense? I'm not disputing that "clusiana" is the right name for these tulips. That's not the nomenclatural issue I was raising. The issue I was raising is that the name clusiana was originally used for the pentaploid form. Subsequent taxonomic changes have made it difficult to name the original clone in such a way that it can be marketed without confusion with other forms of Tulipa clusiana.  Jim McKenney _______________________________________________ pbs mailing list pbs@lists.ibiblio.org http://pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php http://pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki From totototo@telus.net Sun, 29 Mar 2015 18:17:05 -0700 Message-Id: <55183983.419.2502@localhost> From: "Rodger Whitlock" Subject: Weedy Tulips - T. clusiana Date: Sun, 29 Mar 2015 17:42:27 -0700 On 29 Mar 2015, at 22:35, Jim McKenney wrote: > Bob, I'm not sure what you meant by those =  signs, but The Kew List makes > Tulipa stellata a synonym of T. clusiana. That's because the original posting was in Unicode UTF-8 encoding, but your email program interprets it as an 8-bit Windows encoding. Try telling your email program to interpret the message as UTF-8. It's possible that the mailing list software is stripping out the header that states the encoding. -- Rodger Whitlock Victoria, British Columbia, Canada Z. 7-8, cool Mediterranean climate From penstemon@Q.com Sun, 29 Mar 2015 18:17:05 -0700 Message-Id: <8D8AFC0A30EB4F8F9C3F82071E3A7183@bobPC> From: "penstemon" Subject: Weedy Tulips - T. clusiana Date: Sun, 29 Mar 2015 18:59:20 -0600 The issue I was raising is that the name clusiana was originally used for the pentaploid form. Subsequent taxonomic changes have made it difficult to name the original clone in such a way that it can be marketed without confusion with other forms of Tulipa clusiana. According to the Kew monograph, the taxon, Tulipa clusiana, an acknowledged species, found in the wild as mentioned earlier, *is pentaploid*. So “pentaploid” is not a distinguishing characteristic between the two. A clone is something created from something else (a tulip, a cat, Mr. Spock) and is genetically identical to the thing from which it was created. I suspect that most tulips were raised from seed until fairly recently; in which case they are not clones. So the distinction that needs to be made, between the actual species Tulipa clusiana, and the putative non-species “T. clusiana Hort.”, can have nothing to do with being pentaploid, since both have that in common. The distinction of “being a clone” can scarcely be proved without access to genetic material from all bulbs so described. So what is the actual difference, if there is one? Bob Nold Denver, Colorado, USA _______________________________________________ pbs mailing list pbs@lists.ibiblio.org http://pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php http://pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki From jamesamckenney@verizon.net Sun, 29 Mar 2015 19:17:06 -0700 Message-Id: <215939341.876356.1427678930447.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> From: Jim McKenney Subject: Weedy Tulips - T. clusiana Date: Mon, 30 Mar 2015 01:28:50 +0000 (UTC) I'm glad to have found someone willing to continue this discussion with me, because the issues involved here illustrate well the confusion which can arise when the rules of nomenclature butt heads with the science which those rules should be reflecting accurately.  Bob Nold wrote: "According to the Kew monograph, the taxon, Tulipa clusiana, an acknowledged species, found in the wild as mentioned earlier, *is pentaploid*.  And he added: So “pentaploid” is not a distinguishing characteristic between the two. " Up until the late twentieth century the first part of that would have been true. But as the taxon Tulipa clusiana is currently interpreted, it includes forms which are not pentaploid. In fact, the only pentaploid entity which is a part of the species Tulipa clusiana is the original clone grown in western gardens for over four hundred years and which has been growing in the wild for who knows how long before that.   When Bob wrote "So pentaploid is not a distinguishig characteristic between the two" he was right, but the reason he was right is because the "two" are one and the same thing.  I don't have a copy of the Kew monograph to check, but I'll bet that the concept of Tulipa clusiana presented there is the same concept of that species which has existed since DC named the species. But the contemporary concept is different, although you might never guess it from the way that concept is sometimes expressed in the nomenclature. Jim McKenney _______________________________________________ pbs mailing list pbs@lists.ibiblio.org http://pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php http://pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki From jamesamckenney@verizon.net Sun, 29 Mar 2015 19:17:06 -0700 Message-Id: <1851660515.878479.1427680763474.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> From: Jim McKenney Subject: Weedy Tulips - T. clusiana Date: Mon, 30 Mar 2015 01:59:23 +0000 (UTC) Roger, as you can see, I'm having trouble enough getting these ideas across on my own. I don't need meta data complications! But thanks for trying.Jim McKenney _______________________________________________ pbs mailing list pbs@lists.ibiblio.org http://pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php http://pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki From penstemon@Q.com Sun, 29 Mar 2015 20:17:04 -0700 Message-Id: From: "penstemon" Subject: Weedy Tulips - T. clusiana Date: Sun, 29 Mar 2015 20:50:25 -0600 >I don't have a copy of the Kew monograph to check, but I'll bet that the concept of Tulipa clusiana presented there is the same concept of that species which has existed since DC named the species. But the contemporary concept is different, although you might never guess it from the way that concept is sometimes expressed in the nomenclature. The contemporary (insofar as the publication date of the monograph, 2013, can be considered contemporary) concept is the same as DC’s concept. It has not changed. Tulipa clusiana DC is and always has been T. clusiana DC. First flowered in 1607. Illustration by Redoute: http://www.plantgenera.org/illustration.php?id_illustration=37196 Tulipa clusiana DC, syn. T. stellata Hook., pentaploid. Red and white flowers. Narrow upright leaves, as with the rest that follow. T. clusiana forma cashmeriana (A.D. hall) Raamsd, syn. T. aitchisonii subsp. cashmeriana A.D. Hall, “primrose yellow” flowers, diploid. T. clusiana forma diniae Raamsd., syn. T. clusiana var. chrysantha A.D. Hall, T. stellata chrysantha A.D. Hall and also Hook., red and yellow flowers, tetraploid. However, there is also a T. clusiana forma stellata “white with a crimson flush but with a yellow blotch and stamens”, but oddly there is no lengthy description of this in the monograph. Bob Nold Denver, Colorado, USA _______________________________________________ pbs mailing list pbs@lists.ibiblio.org http://pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php http://pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki From paige@hillkeep.ca Sun, 29 Mar 2015 21:17:06 -0700 Message-Id: <2D73509D-4609-42B5-9EF2-819B4BAB508A@hillkeep.ca> From: Paige Woodward Subject: Weedy Tulips - T. clusiana Date: Sun, 29 Mar 2015 20:49:45 -0700 Monsters, you have just made me order the Kew monograph. I had previously been subsisting on various papers and Tulips, Species and Hybrids for the Gardener, a generalist survey by Richard Wilford, who is at Kew, knows a lot about a lot of bulbs, contributed the cultivation chapter to the monograph and is a fine fellow. Paige > On Mar 29, 2015, at 7:50 PM, penstemon wrote: > > >> I don't have a copy of the Kew monograph to check, but I'll bet that the concept of Tulipa clusiana presented there is the same concept of that species which has existed since DC named the species. But the contemporary concept is different, although you might never guess it from the way that concept is sometimes expressed in the nomenclature. > > The contemporary (insofar as the publication date of the monograph, 2013, can be considered contemporary) concept is the same as DC’s concept. It has not changed. Tulipa clusiana DC is and always has been T. clusiana DC. First flowered in 1607. Illustration by Redoute: http://www.plantgenera.org/illustration.php?id_illustration=37196 > Tulipa clusiana DC, syn. T. stellata Hook., pentaploid. Red and white flowers. Narrow upright leaves, as with the rest that follow. > T. clusiana forma cashmeriana (A.D. hall) Raamsd, syn. T. aitchisonii subsp. cashmeriana A.D. Hall, “primrose yellow” flowers, diploid. > T. clusiana forma diniae Raamsd., syn. T. clusiana var. chrysantha A.D. Hall, T. stellata chrysantha A.D. Hall and also Hook., red and yellow flowers, tetraploid. > However, there is also a T. clusiana forma stellata “white with a crimson flush but with a yellow blotch and stamens”, but oddly there is no lengthy description of this in the monograph. > Bob Nold > Denver, Colorado, USA > _______________________________________________ > pbs mailing list > pbs@lists.ibiblio.org > http://pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php > http://pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki _______________________________________________ pbs mailing list pbs@lists.ibiblio.org http://pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php http://pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki From paige@hillkeep.ca Sun, 29 Mar 2015 21:17:06 -0700 Message-Id: <225BD991-7872-4F15-A924-81BBBE6CDA17@hillkeep.ca> From: Paige Woodward Subject: Weedy Tulips - T. clusiana Date: Sun, 29 Mar 2015 20:56:48 -0700 I still think the tulips are laughing in the hills. Paige From penstemon@Q.com Sun, 29 Mar 2015 22:17:03 -0700 Message-Id: From: "penstemon" Subject: Weedy Tulips - T. clusiana Date: Sun, 29 Mar 2015 22:27:34 -0600 Monsters, you have just made me order the Kew monograph. I had previously been subsisting on various papers and Tulips, Species and Hybrids for the Gardener, a generalist survey by Richard Wilford, who is at Kew, knows a lot about a lot of bulbs, contributed the cultivation chapter to the monograph and is a fine fellow. Last I saw, the AGS had it on sale. Nice illustrations, too. Many species reduced to synonymy. Bob Nold Denver, Colorado, USA From brown.mark@wanadoo.fr Mon, 30 Mar 2015 00:17:05 -0700 Message-Id: <1381736363.4534.1427698525650.JavaMail.www@wwinf1p20> From: Mark BROWN Subject: Tulipa clusiana Date: Mon, 30 Mar 2015 08:55:25 +0200 (CEST) Would it not be better to distinguish the old pentaploid and stoloniferous clone of clusiana with some varietal status as we do for Galanthus alpinus var. bortkewitschianus? Mark       _______________________________________________ pbs mailing list pbs@lists.ibiblio.org http://pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php http://pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki From ben.zonneveld@naturalis.nl Mon, 30 Mar 2015 01:17:05 -0700 Message-Id: From: Ben Zonneveld Subject: T clusiana Date: Mon, 30 Mar 2015 10:03:55 +0200 To have some hard info: T clusiana with T linifolia and montana forms a separate subgenus in Tulipa. the other subgenera : Orithyia, Tulipa, Eriostemones T clusiana f cahmeriana is diploid (including aitchisonii) T clusiana f ...is triploid ( examples: Sheila, Taco, Tubbergens Gem) T clusiana f dinae is tetraploid.examples: Tinker,Lady Jane, Cynthia) T clusiana f clusianae is pentaploid Ben -- BJM Zonneveld Naturalis, Herbarium section Postbox 9517 Darwinweg 2, 2300RA Leiden The Netherlands Email: ben.zonneveld@naturalis.nl , telf 071-7517228 From ralph.carpenter1@googlemail.com Mon, 30 Mar 2015 04:17:12 -0700 Message-Id: From: John Ralph Carpenter Subject: Weedy Tulips - T. clusiana Date: Mon, 30 Mar 2015 11:25:13 +0100 Love this discussion. I have various forms of T. clusiana bought as clusiana, clusiana var. chrysantha, etc etc. And I can't tell which is which. Think I'll label them all as T. clusiana group. On Monday, 30 March 2015, penstemon wrote: > > Monsters, you have just made me order the Kew monograph. I had previously been subsisting on various papers and Tulips, Species and Hybrids for the > Gardener, a generalist survey by Richard Wilford, who is at Kew, knows a lot about a lot of bulbs, contributed the cultivation chapter to the monograph and is a fine fellow. > > > Last I saw, the AGS had it on sale. Nice illustrations, too. Manu species reduced to synonymy. > Bob Nold > Denver, Colorado, USA > _______________________________________________ > pbs mailing list > pbs@lists.ibiblio.org > http://pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php > http://pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki > -- Ralph Carpenter 2 & 3 Stone Cottages Chilmington Green Great Chart Ashford Kent TN23 3DW 01233 637567 From brown.mark@wanadoo.fr Mon, 30 Mar 2015 04:17:12 -0700 Message-Id: <1590816503.13036.1427713154350.JavaMail.www@wwinf1j10> From: Mark BROWN Subject: T clusiana Date: Mon, 30 Mar 2015 12:59:14 +0200 (CEST) So are we to call the old stoloniferous pentaploid clone, forma clusianae? Is this in line with the Kew monograph? Mark         > Message du 30/03/15 10:04 > De : "Ben Zonneveld" > A : "Pbs" > Copie à : > Objet : [pbs] T clusiana > > To have some hard info: > T clusiana with T linifolia and montana forms a separate subgenus in > Tulipa. the other subgenera : Orithyia, Tulipa, Eriostemones > > T clusiana f cahmeriana is diploid (including aitchisonii) > T clusiana f ...is triploid ( examples: Sheila, Taco, Tubbergens Gem) > T clusiana f dinae is tetraploid.examples: Tinker,Lady Jane, Cynthia) > T clusiana f clusianae is pentaploid > Ben > > -- > > BJM Zonneveld > Naturalis, Herbarium section > Postbox 9517 > Darwinweg 2, 2300RA Leiden > The Netherlands > Email: ben.zonneveld@naturalis.nl , > telf 071-7517228 > _______________________________________________ > pbs mailing list > pbs@lists.ibiblio.org > http://pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php > http://pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki > _______________________________________________ pbs mailing list pbs@lists.ibiblio.org http://pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php http://pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki From john@oltarakwa.co.uk Mon, 30 Mar 2015 05:18:09 -0700 Message-Id: <131f9ecd87f5d72a7b15555ea890dfc2@oltarakwa.co.uk> From: john@oltarakwa.co.uk Subject: T clusiana Date: Mon, 30 Mar 2015 12:34:41 +0100 the final e is a typo On 2015-03-30 11:59, Mark BROWN wrote: > So are we to call the old stoloniferous pentaploid clone, forma > clusianae? > Is this in line with the Kew monograph? > Mark >   >   >   >   >> Message du 30/03/15 10:04 >> De : "Ben Zonneveld" >> A : "Pbs" > >> Copie à : >> Objet : [pbs] T clusiana >> >> To have some hard info: >> T clusiana with T linifolia and montana forms a separate subgenus in >> Tulipa. the other subgenera : Orithyia, Tulipa, Eriostemones >> >> T clusiana f cahmeriana is diploid (including aitchisonii) >> T clusiana f ...is triploid ( examples: Sheila, Taco, Tubbergens Gem) >> T clusiana f dinae is tetraploid.examples: Tinker,Lady Jane, Cynthia) >> T clusiana f clusianae is pentaploid >> Ben >> >> -- >> >> BJM Zonneveld >> Naturalis, Herbarium section >> Postbox 9517 >> Darwinweg 2, 2300RA Leiden >> The Netherlands >> Email: ben.zonneveld@naturalis.nl , >> telf 071-7517228 >> _______________________________________________ >> pbs mailing list >> pbs@lists.ibiblio.org >> http://pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php >> http://pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki >> > _______________________________________________ > pbs mailing list > pbs@lists.ibiblio.org > http://pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php > http://pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki _______________________________________________ pbs mailing list pbs@lists.ibiblio.org http://pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php http://pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki From jwaddick@kc.rr.com Mon, 30 Mar 2015 06:18:07 -0700 Message-Id: From: James Waddick Subject: The "real' stoloniferous T. clusiana Date: Mon, 30 Mar 2015 08:15:59 -0500 "So are we to call the old stoloniferous pentaploid clone, forma clusiana?" What ever you call it does any one have a source or a few bulbs to share or trade.? I’d stil like to grow it. Thanks all for a contorted discussion. Jim W. James Waddick 8871 NW Brostrom Rd Kansas City, MO 64152-2711 USA Phone 816-746-1949 _______________________________________________ pbs mailing list pbs@lists.ibiblio.org http://pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php http://pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki From jamesamckenney@verizon.net Mon, 30 Mar 2015 07:17:10 -0700 Message-Id: <1404532001.1182310.1427723373510.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> From: Jim McKenney Subject: The "real' stoloniferous T. clusiana Date: Mon, 30 Mar 2015 13:49:33 +0000 (UTC) Jim Waddick's question about what we should call the old stoloniferous clone of Tulipa clusiana opens another can of worms. The plant in question is a clone. Formal botanical nomenclature does not have a rank corresponding to clone (unless you accept Individuum as a formal rank). Ranks such as subspecies, varietas, forma are not suitable because they imply the existence of a sexually reproducing population. No such thing as Tulipa clusiana var. clusiana or Tulipa clusiana f. clusiana exists in nature. What exists in nature and cultivation is a single pentaploid seedling of ancient origin which now forms a multitudinous clone. For my purposes, I call it Tulipa clusiana 'Clusiana'.  Jim McKenney _______________________________________________ pbs mailing list pbs@lists.ibiblio.org http://pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php http://pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki From jamesamckenney@verizon.net Mon, 30 Mar 2015 08:17:18 -0700 Message-Id: <1765002911.1206823.1427725035581.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> From: Jim McKenney Subject: Weedy Tulips - T. clusiana Date: Mon, 30 Mar 2015 14:17:15 +0000 (UTC) Bob Nold wrote: 'The contemporary (insofar as the publication date of the monograph, 2013, can be considered contemporary) concept is the same as DC’s concept. It has not changed. Tulipa clusiana DC is and always has been T. clusiana DC. " Isn't this a good example of confusing nomenclature and science? Yes, the pentaploid form has been Tulipa clusiana since the time of DC. But the combination of names "Tulipa clusiana DC " no longer means simply the pentaploid form: it includes all the varies forms (diploids, triploids, tetraploids, pentaploids).  To say that the modern concept is the same as de Candolle's is to overlook the fact that de Candolle's name Tulipa clusiana was coined for a single entity, yet our contemporary usage includes a number of other forms which probably would have astonished de Candolle.  And Tulipa stellata (later determined to be a tetraploid form) in fact was known during de Candolle's lifetime. Jim McKenney  _______________________________________________ pbs mailing list pbs@lists.ibiblio.org http://pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php http://pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki From penstemon@Q.com Mon, 30 Mar 2015 08:17:18 -0700 Message-Id: From: "penstemon" Subject: The "real' stoloniferous T. clusiana Date: Mon, 30 Mar 2015 08:17:19 -0600 No such thing as Tulipa clusiana var. clusiana or Tulipa clusiana f. clusiana exists in nature. According to the Kew monograph, there is a species, Tulipa clusiana, stoloniferous, pentaploid, which exists in nature. As I said before. Bob Nold Denver, Colorado, USA From jamesamckenney@verizon.net Mon, 30 Mar 2015 08:17:18 -0700 Message-Id: <315452191.1215973.1427725672538.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> From: Jim McKenney Subject: The "real' stoloniferous T. clusiana Date: Mon, 30 Mar 2015 14:27:52 +0000 (UTC) I can't disagree with your statements about the contents of the Kew monograph (which I have yet to see), but that's not what's at issue here. Shouldn't we be asking why the authors of the Kew monograph are calling a pentaploid plant which reproduces as far as is known only by vegetative reproduction a species? Species reproduce sexually: their shared gene pool (acquired through sexual reproduction) is what makes them a species. This "pentaploid species" is a clone, and in that respect no more deserving of a distinct botanical name than any of the familiar garden tulips.  Jim McKenney _______________________________________________ pbs mailing list pbs@lists.ibiblio.org http://pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php http://pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki From k.preteroti@verizon.net Mon, 30 Mar 2015 08:17:18 -0700 Message-Id: <018D3373-BC45-4421-AFE4-0B7326855F61@verizon.net> From: Kenneth Preteroti Subject: The "real' stoloniferous T. clusiana Date: Mon, 30 Mar 2015 11:06:55 -0400 Somewhat off subject I have the following question: how does one know if a plant is diploid or polyploidy? Many discussions of late discuss the polyploidy of certain plants as if it is common knowledge. I am sure I could google this but I am also sure I am not the only one who has this question. Ken P Old Bridge, NJ Zone 6 b From penstemon@Q.com Mon, 30 Mar 2015 09:17:13 -0700 Message-Id: <15B0368082C742ECA5D781E31510E087@bobPC> From: "penstemon" Subject: The "real' stoloniferous T. clusiana Date: Mon, 30 Mar 2015 09:25:27 -0600 This "pentaploid species" is a clone, and in that respect no more deserving of a distinct botanical name than any of the familiar garden tulips. On what evidence are you basing this assertion? What evidence is there that this “old” form is somehow distinct from the wild species? Or that it is a clone? Bob Nold Denver, Colorado, USA _______________________________________________ pbs mailing list pbs@lists.ibiblio.org http://pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php http://pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki From robin@no1bird.net Mon, 30 Mar 2015 09:17:13 -0700 Message-Id: <551970E7.6010407@no1bird.net> From: Robin Subject: Weedy Tulips - T. clusiana Date: Mon, 30 Mar 2015 11:51:03 -0400 with 5 new emails from you, i wonder if you might want to just send them to the person you want to receive them, not the whole PBC mailing list. On 3/29/2015 9:28 PM, Jim McKenney wrote: > I'm glad to have found someone willing to continue this discussion with me, because the issues involved here illustrate well the confusion which can arise when the rules of nomenclature butt heads with the science which those rules should be reflecting accurately. > Bob Nold wrote: "According to the Kew monograph, the taxon, Tulipa clusiana, an acknowledged species, found in the wild as mentioned earlier, *is pentaploid*. And he added: So “pentaploid” is not a distinguishing characteristic between the two. " > Up until the late twentieth century the first part of that would have been true. But as the taxon Tulipa clusiana is currently interpreted, it includes forms which are not pentaploid. In fact, the only pentaploid entity which is a part of the species Tulipa clusiana is the original clone grown in western gardens for over four hundred years and which has been growing in the wild for who knows how long before that. > When Bob wrote "So pentaploid is not a distinguishig characteristic between the two" he was right, but the reason he was right is because the "two" are one and the same thing. > I don't have a copy of the Kew monograph to check, but I'll bet that the concept of Tulipa clusiana presented there is the same concept of that species which has existed since DC named the species. But the contemporary concept is different, although you might never guess it from the way that concept is sometimes expressed in the nomenclature. > Jim McKenney > > _______________________________________________ > pbs mailing list > pbs@lists.ibiblio.org > http://pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php > http://pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki _______________________________________________ pbs mailing list pbs@lists.ibiblio.org http://pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php http://pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki From jamesamckenney@verizon.net Mon, 30 Mar 2015 10:17:07 -0700 Message-Id: <2069700039.1024539.1427732762329.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> From: Jim McKenney Subject: The "real' stoloniferous T. clusiana Date: Mon, 30 Mar 2015 16:26:02 +0000 (UTC) Bob Nold asked: "On what evidence are you basing this assertion? What evidence is there that this “old” form is somehow distinct from the wild species? Or that it is a clone? " It's based on hundreds of years of empirical observation: the old original Tulipa clusiana very rarely set seed and has long been known to be stoloniferous. And when it set seed, no one seems to have followed up on how that seed behaved: did it germinate and produce more pentaploid plants which were the result of genuine sexual fusion of gametes? Did it germinate and produce pentaploid plants which were the result of the seed being apomictic and thus clonal? The few recorded instances of seed formation which I've seen took place before modern genetics existed, and so would not answer these questions.  Bob, you seem to be misunderstanding what I'm driving at here. I've never said that the old pentaploid clone is distinct from the wild species. The pentaploid clone exists in the wild as part of the aggregate we call Tulipa clusiana. It's peculiar importance derives from the fact that the pentaploid clone was the first member of this Tulipa clusiana aggregate to have been described in modern botanical nomenclature. That's why all of the varied plants now assigned to Tulipa clusiana (but formerly thought to be distinct species) bear the name Tulipa clusiana. It's one of those very strange situations where the tail is wagging the dog: the diploid populations assigned to Tulipa clusiana in the modern sense, diploid populations which function as modern, sexually reproducing species, do not give their name to the species simply because a related plant, the pentaploid clone,  was named earlier, and according to the rules of nomenclature that earlier name us used for the entire species. Until well into the twentieth century, the combination Tulipa clusiana as a botanical name meant only one thing: the pentaploid clone. But that's not what the combination Tulipa clusiana means now. Jim McKenney To: Pacific Bulb Society Sent: Monday, March 30, 2015 11:25 AM Subject: Re: [pbs] The "real' stoloniferous T. clusiana This "pentaploid species" is a clone, and in that respect no more deserving of a distinct botanical name than any of the familiar garden tulips. On what evidence are you basing this assertion? What evidence is there that this “old” form is somehow distinct from the wild species? Or that it is a clone? Bob Nold Denver, Colorado, USA _______________________________________________ pbs mailing list pbs@lists.ibiblio.org http://pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php http://pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki From nickplummer@gmail.com Mon, 30 Mar 2015 11:17:05 -0700 Message-Id: From: Nicholas plummer Subject: The "real' stoloniferous T. clusiana Date: Mon, 30 Mar 2015 13:26:16 -0400 It's an interesting conundrum, but I'm not sure that ranks such as subspecies, varietas, and forma are necessarily inappropriate. Asexually reproducing populations may create problems for the biological species concept, but that hasn't stopped numerous asexually reproducing organisms being named at species rank (e.g. a wide variety of parthenogenetic lizard species). Evolution will invariably throw up edge cases and mismatches whenever we try to shoehorn natural variation into human-devised categories. Clone may well be incorrect, too. Even if all the pentaploid plants originated in a single mutant seedling, subsequent somatic mutations will eventually generate multiple populations if the wild plants are reasonably numerous, and they might be undetectable without DNA analysis. Nick Jim McKenney wrote: > Jim Waddick's question about what we should call the old stoloniferous > clone of Tulipa clusiana opens another can of worms. The plant in question > is a clone. Formal botanical nomenclature does not have a rank > corresponding to clone (unless you accept Individuum as a formal > rank). Ranks such as subspecies, varietas, forma are not suitable because > they imply the existence of a sexually reproducing population. No such > thing as Tulipa clusiana var. clusiana or Tulipa clusiana f. clusiana > exists in nature. What exists in nature and cultivation is a single > pentaploid seedling of ancient origin which now forms a multitudinous > clone. > __________________ > pbs mailing list > pbs@lists.ibiblio.org > http://pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php > http://pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki > From rjrussell@cot.net Mon, 30 Mar 2015 11:17:05 -0700 Message-Id: From: "Joey Russell" Subject: Weedy Tulips - T. clusiana Date: Mon, 30 Mar 2015 10:39:14 -0700 You are all great! Not only are the Tulips on the hillside laughing but I am too (and learning). Remind me, doesn’t pentaploid mean 5 homologous pairs of chromosomes which is what gives "plants" their great diversity? Plasticity I think the word is, leading to a great variety? Joey Russell -----Original Message----- From: Jim McKenney Sent: Monday, March 30, 2015 7:17 AM To: Pacific Bulb Society Subject: Re: [pbs] Weedy Tulips - T. clusiana Bob Nold wrote: 'The contemporary (insofar as the publication date of the monograph, 2013, can be considered contemporary) concept is the same as DC’s concept. It has not changed. Tulipa clusiana DC is and always has been T. clusiana DC. " Isn't this a good example of confusing nomenclature and science? Yes, the pentaploid form has been Tulipa clusiana since the time of DC. But the combination of names "Tulipa clusiana DC " no longer means simply the pentaploid form: it includes all the varies forms (diploids, triploids, tetraploids, pentaploids). To say that the modern concept is the same as de Candolle's is to overlook the fact that de Candolle's name Tulipa clusiana was coined for a single entity, yet our contemporary usage includes a number of other forms which probably would have astonished de Candolle. And Tulipa stellata (later determined to be a tetraploid form) in fact was known during de Candolle's lifetime. Jim McKenney _______________________________________________ pbs mailing list pbs@lists.ibiblio.org http://pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php http://pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki _______________________________________________ pbs mailing list pbs@lists.ibiblio.org http://pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php http://pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki From penstemon@Q.com Mon, 30 Mar 2015 11:17:05 -0700 Message-Id: <6F0EB6A6C26741C0A996CAB6B85111F6@bobPC> From: "penstemon" Subject: The "real' stoloniferous T. clusiana Date: Mon, 30 Mar 2015 11:57:42 -0600 >I've never said that the old pentaploid clone is distinct from the wild >species. Yes, you did. You said “No such thing as Tulipa clusiana var. clusiana or Tulipa clusiana f. clusiana exists in nature.” This contradicts what is said in the Kew monograph. A taxon found in Iran, Afghanistan, and Pakistan can scarcely be the same genetically-identical plant, reproducing by means other than seed. (Still not a "clone", by the way.) "The old pentaploid clone". That a plant does not behave in climates dissimilar to the way it would in a climate in which it evolved is not a basis for creating a distinction. It seeds here. As I said earlier. Bob Nold Denver, Colorado, USA "Plants don't clone plants; people clone plants." _______________________________________________ pbs mailing list pbs@lists.ibiblio.org http://pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php http://pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki From totototo@telus.net Mon, 30 Mar 2015 12:17:06 -0700 Message-Id: <55193703.10450.2FC7@localhost> From: "Rodger Whitlock" Subject: The "real' stoloniferous T. clusiana Date: Mon, 30 Mar 2015 11:44:03 -0700 On 30 Mar 2015, at 9:25, penstemon wrote: > This "pentaploid species" is a clone, and in that respect no more deserving > of a distinct botanical name than any of the familiar garden tulips. Many plants were first described (and named) from single clones. This is particularly true wrt Chinese plants, as many were first described from cultivated forms bought from Chinese nurserymen in the years before China was forced to let Europeans wander about the country. Kerria japonica is an example. It was originally described from the common double flowered clone, even though its flowers are so doubled that no one could tell what plant family it belonged in. (Later discovery of the wild single- flowered form showed it is in the Rosaceae.) Indeed, the whole system of botanical names rests on the concept of type specimens, single specimens that are authoritative examples of their respective taxons. It doesn't care what the ploidy of those specimens is. Mess ensues when the type specimen is unrepresentative of the taxon as a whole, but that's the way the system works. -- Rodger Whitlock Victoria, British Columbia, Canada Z. 7-8, cool Mediterranean climate From jamesamckenney@verizon.net Mon, 30 Mar 2015 13:17:07 -0700 Message-Id: <80129324.1429318.1427743334552.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> From: Jim McKenney Subject: The "real' stoloniferous T. clusiana Date: Mon, 30 Mar 2015 19:22:14 +0000 (UTC) With regard to your usage of the word clone, keep in mind that the meaning you seem to be using, although it's certainly the prevailing meaning now, was not the original meaning. The original meaning (viticulturists came up with this) was meant to describe the group which results when plants are asexually propagated. Clone in that original sense referred to the group, not to the entities which made up the group.  Once geneticists got hold of the word, they imposed the "genetically identical" concept - in spite of the abundant evidence all around them that vegetatively propagated plants often show somatic mutations. Tulip growers alone could have shown them cases where a single seedling came to exist in over a dozen different (in the marketing sense) forms.  So, for those who insist that clone means "genetically identical population/aggregation" , then clone might not describe the original Tulipa clusiana. But for those of us who use the word clone in its original sense, somatic mutations (and anyone who knows the history of tulips knows the huge role they have played) are not relevant to this issue: we prefer to believe that "our" old original Tulipa clusiana is a piece of the original seedling, some perhaps with somatic mutations, some perhaps without.  I'm glad you mentioned the problems asexually reproducing organisms pose for the biological species concept. It seems to me that most asexually reproducing organisms (that is, organisms which reproduce exclusively by asexual means)  exist as clones. When they are classified at the rank species, they have been misplaced. They should be classified at the rank Individuum.  Jim McKenney _______________________________________________ pbs mailing list pbs@lists.ibiblio.org http://pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php http://pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki From ds429@frontier.com Mon, 30 Mar 2015 13:17:07 -0700 Message-Id: <1427744911.95551.YahooMailBasic@web163104.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> From: ds429 Subject: tulips which run wild Date: Mon, 30 Mar 2015 12:48:31 -0700 I hope that you folks who have various "weedy tulips" will send bulbs or seeds to the BX/SX so the rest of us can share in the reckless abandon. Best wishes, Dell From penstemon@Q.com Mon, 30 Mar 2015 13:17:07 -0700 Message-Id: <90172FEAA2414D29B54385E05A7756EB@bobPC> From: "penstemon" Subject: The "real' stoloniferous T. clusiana Date: Mon, 30 Mar 2015 14:04:13 -0600 So, for those who insist that clone means "genetically identical population/aggregation" , then clone might not describe the original Tulipa clusiana. The existence of something called “the original Tulipa clusiana” which is somehow distinct from *any other* example of Tulipa clusiana DC, exclusive of named forms, has not been demonstrated. Tulipa clusiana DC is stoloniferous (per Kew monograph), pentaploid, and grows in the wild. How does it then differ from this supposed “clone” (viticulture definition being irrelevant)? http://www.tropicos.org/Name/18400355?projectid=32 (q.e.d.) Bob Nold Denver, Colorado, USA I should be watering the oncocyclus iris. _______________________________________________ pbs mailing list pbs@lists.ibiblio.org http://pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php http://pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki From penstemon@Q.com Mon, 30 Mar 2015 13:17:07 -0700 Message-Id: <04D1CE4CF27846B7BBCA7E3DFAD5C7AF@bobPC> From: "penstemon" Subject: tulips which run wild Date: Mon, 30 Mar 2015 14:09:05 -0600 I hope that you folks who have various "weedy tulips" will send bulbs or seeds to the BX/SX so the rest of us can share in the reckless abandon. People would just complain. “I got these seeds of Tulipa regelii from you and now I have these little tulips all over the garden. Thanks for nothing.” Bob Nold Denver, Colorado, USA _______________________________________________ pbs mailing list pbs@lists.ibiblio.org http://pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php http://pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki From jamesamckenney@verizon.net Mon, 30 Mar 2015 13:17:07 -0700 Message-Id: <899713693.1507691.1427746325422.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> From: Jim McKenney Subject: The "real' stoloniferous T. clusiana Date: Mon, 30 Mar 2015 20:12:05 +0000 (UTC) Bob, you evidently did not understand what I meant when I wrote " “No such thing as Tulipa clusiana var. clusiana or Tulipa clusiana f. clusiana exists in nature.” Note that one of those taxa is ranked at the rank varietas, the other at the rank forma.  Those ranks imply (to me anyway) sexually reproducing populations. It makes no sense to rank clones at those ranks. What I was saying was shorthand for saying what I've been saying over and over: the original pentaploid Tulipa clusiana does not exist as a sexually reproducing population.  I've dealt with the "genetically identical" issue in another post. I don't doubt that something seeds for you, but have you had its ploidy level ascertained? Or can you be sure the seeds are not the result of apomixis? Jim McKenney _______________________________________________ pbs mailing list pbs@lists.ibiblio.org http://pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php http://pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki From jwaddick@kc.rr.com Mon, 30 Mar 2015 14:17:10 -0700 Message-Id: From: James Waddick Subject: tulips which run wild Date: Mon, 30 Mar 2015 15:23:31 -0500 Bob and Dell, I’d welcome seed of weed tulips. Bring ‘em on! I’d love to send a few hundred bulbs of T. sylvestnis, but they are stoloniferous to the point of not making many bulbs, at least in my conditions. I have tried sending people bulbs in the past and it means digging deep and finding no bulbs at all. Nada. Each clump of foliage is traced down a skinny stolon to oblivion. Maybe digging a dozen or two plants will result in a couple pea size bulblets. And this is in fairly heavy clay to make the digging more interesting. Dutch growers must keep those confined in a sandy soil that can be sieved closely for the bulbs. Mine originally came from a friend in Kansas City who gave me a few. I”d be glad to try seeds. Best Jim W. > On Mar 30, 2015, at 3:09 PM, penstemon wrote: > > I hope that you folks who have various "weedy tulips" will send bulbs or seeds to the BX/SX so the rest of us can share in the reckless abandon. > > People would just complain. “I got these seeds of Tulipa regelii from you and now I have these little tulips all over the garden. Thanks for nothing.” James Waddick 8871 NW Brostrom Rd Kansas City, MO 64152-2711 USA Phone 816-746-1949 _______________________________________________ pbs mailing list pbs@lists.ibiblio.org http://pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php http://pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki From totototo@telus.net Mon, 30 Mar 2015 14:17:10 -0700 Message-Id: <551956EC.23199.D22F@localhost> From: "Rodger Whitlock" Subject: The "real' stoloniferous T. clusiana Date: Mon, 30 Mar 2015 14:00:12 -0700 On 30 Mar 2015, at 20:12, Jim McKenney wrote: > Those ranks imply (to me anyway) sexually reproducing populations. Your inference is incorrect. Keep firmly fixed in your mind the concept of "type specimen", the one specimen that is the authoritative example of a taxon. No one cares if it reproduces sexually or asexually. Or even if it reproduces at all, for that matter. -- Rodger Whitlock Victoria, British Columbia, Canada Z. 7-8, cool Mediterranean climate From penstemon@Q.com Mon, 30 Mar 2015 14:17:10 -0700 Message-Id: From: "penstemon" Subject: The "real' stoloniferous T. clusiana Date: Mon, 30 Mar 2015 15:02:31 -0600 you evidently did not understand what I meant when I wrote " “No such thing as Tulipa clusiana var. clusiana or Tulipa clusiana f. clusiana exists in nature.” According to the Kew monograph, and the Flora of Pakistan, this assertion is not correct. "Tulipa clusiana DC. is accepted here in a broader sense as a polymorphic species. S. Dasgupta and Deb (l.c.) having prepared the scatter diagram, using various morphological characters, tried to correlate the variation patterns with the geographical and altitudinal distribution. They came to the conclusion that five different forms may be recognised. According to the cytological information provided by Hall (l.c.) diploids, tetraploids and pentaploids are also involved in this complex, however, as the diploids and tetraploids are morphologically similar, they are classified together." http://www.tropicos.org/Name/18400355?projectid=32 Note there is no statement to the effect that Tulipa clusiana DC, as pictured in Redoute, exists only as a clone. Or is a clone. So the repeated assertion that this is the case needs to be proved. Bob _______________________________________________ pbs mailing list pbs@lists.ibiblio.org http://pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php http://pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki From brown.mark@wanadoo.fr Mon, 30 Mar 2015 16:17:05 -0700 Message-Id: <215684108.38737.1427754060093.JavaMail.www@wwinf1m25> From: Mark BROWN Subject: The "real' stoloniferous T. clusiana Date: Tue, 31 Mar 2015 00:21:00 +0200 (CEST) But this is precisely what is happening with Galanthus alpinus var. bortkewitschianus! It does not reproduce sexually. Mark         " Jim Waddick's question about what we should call the old stoloniferous clone of Tulipa clusiana opens another can of worms. The plant in question is a clone. Formal botanical nomenclature does not have a rank corresponding to clone (unless you accept Individuum as a formal rank). Ranks such as subspecies, varietas, forma are not suitable because they imply the existence of a sexually reproducing population." _______________________________________________ pbs mailing list pbs@lists.ibiblio.org http://pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php http://pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki From vc2m@mac.com Mon, 30 Mar 2015 18:17:04 -0700 Message-Id: From: VIJAY CHANDHOK Subject: The "real' stoloniferous T. clusiana Date: Mon, 30 Mar 2015 19:22:41 -0400 I have seen these species tulips growing in valley of Kashmir in Manali Himacheal about the same altitude covering the area below apple orchards, tried to dig the bulbs but they are so deep and small I could never find one. Vijay On Mar 30, 2015, at 5:02 PM, penstemon wrote: > you evidently did not understand what I meant when I wrote " “No such thing as Tulipa clusiana var. clusiana or Tulipa clusiana f. clusiana exists in nature.” > > > > According to the Kew monograph, and the Flora of Pakistan, this assertion is not correct. > > "Tulipa clusiana DC. is accepted here in a broader sense as a polymorphic species. S. Dasgupta and Deb (l.c.) having prepared the scatter diagram, using various morphological characters, tried to correlate the variation patterns with the geographical and altitudinal distribution. They came to the conclusion that five different forms may be recognised. According to the cytological information provided by Hall (l.c.) diploids, tetraploids and pentaploids are also involved in this complex, however, as the diploids and tetraploids are morphologically similar, they are classified together." > http://www.tropicos.org/Name/18400355?projectid=32 > > Note there is no statement to the effect that Tulipa clusiana DC, as pictured in Redoute, exists only as a clone. Or is a clone. So the repeated assertion that this is the case needs to be proved. > > > Bob > > > > _______________________________________________ > pbs mailing list > pbs@lists.ibiblio.org > http://pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php > http://pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki From jamesamckenney@verizon.net Mon, 30 Mar 2015 17:17:04 -0700 Message-Id: <189978610.1666330.1427758417396.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> From: Jim McKenney Subject: The "real' stoloniferous T. clusiana Date: Mon, 30 Mar 2015 23:33:37 +0000 (UTC) Roger wrote: "Your inference is incorrect. Keep firmly fixed in your mind the concept of "type specimen", the one specimen  that is the authoritative example of a taxon. No one cares if it reproduces  sexually or asexually. Or even if it reproduces at all, for that matter." Roger, isn't that a bit of a red herring? I think you are confusing the rules of nomenclature with the insights provided by science in these matters. Science trumps the rules of nomenclature. When a taxonomist names a new plant, the decision about the rank to use should have nothing to do with the rules of nomenclature. To be sure, there have probably been taxonomists who wanted their discoveries to be regarded as species (more important, right?) than lower ranks. In fact there is an Agatha Christie Poirot episode which pokes fun at this venality in some taxonomists.  The point is, the decision about the rank should be made on the basis of the available science. It's only when that is settled that an accurate determination of rank can be proposed. That traditional botanical taxonomy has relied on one variation or another of the type system has little to do with the issues I am pursuing.  A type specimen might be the authoritative example of a taxon for nomenclatural purposes, but a type specimen will have a taxonomic rank, and if that rank is anything other than Individuum, then the taxonomist is proposing a hypothesis: for instance, "this individual type plant proves that such a plant exists; I am proposing that it is representative of a sexually reproducing population and thus should be published at rank species."  The issue I have been pursuing in these discussions is the one which arises when the type is not only an individual plant (which is the usual course of events) but also a plant which does not correspond exactly to any existing sexually reproducing population, but whose relationship and derivation from  some such population can be inferred from what we know about genetics.  When you wrote "No one cares if it reproduces sexually or asexually. Or even if it reproduces at all, for that matter."  I read that as an accurate description of nineteenth century taxonomy. I'm pretty sure our contemporaries in taxonomy are much better educated.  Jim McKenney om: Rodger Whitlock To: Pacific Bulb Society Sent: Monday, March 30, 2015 5:00 PM Subject: Re: [pbs] The "real' stoloniferous T. clusiana On 30 Mar 2015, at 20:12, Jim McKenney wrote: > Those ranks imply (to me anyway) sexually reproducing populations. Your inference is incorrect. Keep firmly fixed in your mind the concept of "type specimen", the one specimen that is the authoritative example of a taxon. No one cares if it reproduces sexually or asexually. Or even if it reproduces at all, for that matter. -- Rodger Whitlock Victoria, British Columbia, Canada Z. 7-8, cool Mediterranean climate _______________________________________________ pbs mailing list pbs@lists.ibiblio.org http://pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php http://pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki From penstemon@Q.com Mon, 30 Mar 2015 17:17:04 -0700 Message-Id: From: "penstemon" Subject: The "real' stoloniferous T. clusiana Date: Mon, 30 Mar 2015 17:42:08 -0600 >When you wrote "No one cares if it reproduces sexually or asexually. Or even if it reproduces at all, for that matter." I read that as an accurate description of nineteenth century taxonomy. I'm pretty sure our contemporaries in taxonomy are much better educated. So now we are denying the existence of apomictic species? Bob Nold Denver, Colorado, USA From jamesamckenney@verizon.net Mon, 30 Mar 2015 18:17:04 -0700 Message-Id: <996584323.1671475.1427761727361.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> From: Jim McKenney Subject: The "real' stoloniferous T. clusiana Date: Tue, 31 Mar 2015 00:28:47 +0000 (UTC) Yes. It's just an example of bad taxonomy. "Apomictic species" are clones.  Jim McKenney From: penstemon To: Pacific Bulb Society Sent: Monday, March 30, 2015 7:42 PM Subject: Re: [pbs] The "real' stoloniferous T. clusiana >When you wrote "No one cares if it reproduces sexually or asexually. Or even if it reproduces at all, for that matter."  I read that as an accurate description of nineteenth century taxonomy. I'm pretty sure our contemporaries in taxonomy are much better educated. So now we are denying the existence of apomictic species? Bob Nold Denver, Colorado, USA _______________________________________________ pbs mailing list pbs@lists.ibiblio.org http://pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php http://pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki From penstemon@Q.com Mon, 30 Mar 2015 18:17:04 -0700 Message-Id: <18333F15E9034C1BAA770CE86DD9FF00@bobPC> From: "penstemon" Subject: The "real' stoloniferous T. clusiana Date: Mon, 30 Mar 2015 19:14:18 -0600 Yes. It's just an example of bad taxonomy. "Apomictic species" are clones. Apomictic species are not clones. Clones do not exist in nature, because a clone, by definition, requires a human agent. Townsendia, for example, contains species which have sexual forms and apomictic forms. Why do bulbs create bulbils? (Rhetorical question, designed to dismiss out-of-hand the claim that asexual reproduction does not make a species.) Bob Nold Denver, Colorado, USA From telosrarebulbs@suddenlink.net Tue, 31 Mar 2015 23:17:05 -0700 Message-Id: <551A978C.5020204@suddenlink.net> From: Diana Chapman Subject: eBay bulbs Date: Tue, 31 Mar 2015 05:48:12 -0700 If anyone is buying bulbs from me on eBay, please send any questions or requests you might have to me directly, not through eBay. All eBay messages to me are blank. I have tried to work with eBay on this and got so frustrated I hung up on them. They basically told me I have to fix it myself, it's not their problem. So, if you send a message through eBay, I get a blank message. I also get blank messages when the bulbs sell. I only know who the buyer is when I get a payment through Paypal. Arrrgh!!! Diana Telos From enoster@hotmail.com Tue, 31 Mar 2015 07:17:04 -0700 Message-Id: From: Travis O Subject: Upper Table Rock wildflowers Date: Tue, 31 Mar 2015 06:50:06 -0700 Hi, My family and I went on a hike on Upper Table Rock near Central Point and Medford OR this weekend. Many wildflowers in bloom including bulbs like masses of Erythronium hendersonii, Fritillaria recurva, Dichelostemma capitatum, and others. Camas will be in flower in a few weeks, there were a lot of buds. The scent of the Ceanothus permeated the hike, while goldfieldd filled the air at the plateau with a sweet honey-like scent. A good time to go, particularly for geophytes. I took some (OK, I took a lot) of photos and put them up on my blog here: http://amateuranthecologist.blogspot.com/2015/03/upper-table-rock.html I hope everyone had a nice weekend! Travis Owen Rogue River, OR From jamesamckenney@verizon.net Tue, 31 Mar 2015 08:17:03 -0700 Message-Id: <1428046672.2103982.1427814875753.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> From: Jim McKenney Subject: Upper Table Rock wildflowers Date: Tue, 31 Mar 2015 15:14:35 +0000 (UTC) Travis, thanks so much, those photos are wonderful.As an east coast gardener, it's really hard for me to understand just how lean,  dry and mineral so many west coast habitats are. Your moonscape photos told me a lot. Thanks for sharing. Jim McKenney Montgomery County, Maryland, USA, USDA zone 7, where we are entering one of the wettest periods of our year. _______________________________________________ pbs mailing list pbs@lists.ibiblio.org http://pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php http://pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki From jamesamckenney@verizon.net Tue, 31 Mar 2015 12:17:04 -0700 Message-Id: <277488763.2283124.1427828227567.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> From: Jim McKenney Subject: Crocus minimus Date: Tue, 31 Mar 2015 18:57:07 +0000 (UTC) Little Crocus minimus is blooming here today.  I've had this since 2006, and from the beginning there have been a few C. tommasinianus mixed in among them. The dark blotch on the outside of this one is so intense and glossy: what a beauty - and it takes care of itself well here.  Jim McKenneyMontgomery County, Maryland, USA, USDA zone 7 where the garden is sweetened by the fragrances of witch hazels, mahonias, winter honeysuckles and (just beginning) star magnolias.   _______________________________________________ pbs mailing list pbs@lists.ibiblio.org http://pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php http://pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki From michaelcmace@gmail.com Tue, 31 Mar 2015 18:17:04 -0700 Message-Id: <016901d06c16$9b48bc60$d1da3520$@gmail.com> From: "Michael Mace" Subject: Warning: Don't buy from Seeds for Africa Date: Tue, 31 Mar 2015 17:55:52 -0700 I was browsing around on the web looking for seeds this afternoon, when I ran across a listing for Moraea unguiculata: http://www.seedsforafrica.co.za/products/moraea-unguiculata-indigenous-south -african-bulb-10-seeds I thought the flower looked pretty cute for that species, but the photo looked vaguely familiar. I went back and checked my blog, and found that it was actually one of my photos, posted here: http://growingcoolplants.blogspot.com/2013/04/moraea-longiaristata.html The trouble is, I have that plant as Moraea longiaristata. So not only is the vendor stealing photos, they're attaching the wrong photos to the species. And there's no way they have seeds of that particular plant, because I haven't been able to get seeds from it (I have only one clone). Who knows what they're actually selling as that species. It makes me suspect everything else they sell. Buyer beware. Mike San Jose, CA (zone 9, min temp 20F, -7C) From fierycloud2002@yahoo.com.tw Tue, 31 Mar 2015 21:17:05 -0700 Message-Id: <1427859145.84070.YahooMailBasic@web75301.mail.tw1.yahoo.com> From: Fierycloud Subject: 回覆﹕ Warning: Don't buy from Seeds for Africa Date: Wed, 1 Apr 2015 11:32:25 +0800 Hello: I had tried the google picture search(right click on the picture and select search the picture via google in chrome browser. ), and found that there are other species which also appear in other site such as WACHENDORFIA MULTIFLORA, WATSONIA DENSIFLORA... (The picture of LACHENALIA ORCHIOIDES ORCHIOIDES seem the same as theon on the PBS wiki http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki/files/Lachenalia/Lachenalia_orchioides_var_glaucina_AMH2.jpg) Su-Hong-Ciao Taiwan