PBS Forum

There was comment on the radio here last week - someone who had met the man responsible for the quote - Leonid Brezhnev, if memory is correct. Paraphrased -

"Negotiationing with the West is easy - we go in demanding vastly more than we expect, the West go in refusing to give anything. Russia comes away with far more than it expected and the West believes it has achieved acceptable compromise"

What is there to negotiate? The same sort of negotiation involved over Crimea?

Quote from: Bern on March 18, 2023, 05:03:37 PMIs there any hope of a negotiated settlement to the war in Ukraine?

Interesting article. That quote about "in the CI do", threw me a bit, it is in the original article and should be CIA not CI.

I don't believe it unless it is true. Someone said that of course everyone knows who blew up the pipelines they just can't admit it in pubic because there would be serious consequences. For example if it was Russia there would be pressure for retaliation.

It is easier to find US sources than UK ones that are doubtful of the Ukrainian side.

The ONS (UK Office for National Statistics) asked me when the war would end, this was sometime last year, and I said soon. I'll repeat the same flawed logic. Look at the map, Russia holds most of what it wants, a chunk of land that stretches from Russia to the Crimea. The Russian speaking part of Ukraine. They'd probably like a bit more, as far as Moldova, taking in Odessa.

Maybe there will be a Ukraine offensive that changes things, otherwise they're in a position for a ceasefire.

I work with a couple of Latvians and Estonians, and I suspect that Poles, and others will be of like mind.

Hell will be a long time frozen over before they are likely to agree to the reborn USSR taking anything.

Quote from: CG100 on March 19, 2023, 06:51:46 AMHell will be a long time frozen over before they are likely to agree to the reborn USSR taking anything.

My point, the closer to Russia you get the more pro Ukrainian. There is no hint of dissent in UK mainstream media. Poland is building a capable army.

Quote from: CG100 on March 19, 2023, 06:51:46 AMHell will be a long time frozen over before they are likely to agree to the reborn USSR taking anything.

And rightly so, because when will it stop if they see they can get anything at all by force? letting them (somewhat) keep the Crimea directly lead to this mess. Dont't even want to think about China and Taiwan.

I mean, for me it's more easy because they make it personal: as a gay man who organized the company Truck for Stuttgart pride for since 2016, I'm a personal sworn enemy for Vlady and his best buddy Patriarch Kyrill - don't laugh, they go on and on about how the morally rotten west forces pride parades on the poor previously uncorrupted peoples of the east. It's almost cute how afraid they are of two guys kissing, if all their defending the "traditional family" wasn't targeted towards producing more cannon fodder for their zerg rush "strategy". 

Sidenote: Taiwan is the only Asian country to have same sex marriage. I see a pattern.

Amen, Martin

A couple of today's videos from Warthog Defence, over on YouTube, are even more chilling than normal. Lunatic Russian soldiers, propagandists and clergy.

But then, of course, Ukraine did start it all.

Can anyone be certain anymore that what is presented to them in the news it the truth?  Is the information provided by governments truthful or lies to protect "classified" activities?

In 1985, Dr. Robert Ballard at Woods Hole Oceanographic Institution, discovered the remains of the Titanic in what was presented by the news media as a purely scientific effort.  In short, it was a top secret US government mission to identify and study the wreckage of two sunken US nuclear submarines.  The news media presented the lies provided it with much fanfare and ceremony.  The effort has since been declassified.  Strangely, I have not heard any of the news outlets complain about being misled by the government.  Were they complicit in the subterfuge?

"There was nothing classified," Dr. Robert Spindel, the head of the Woods Hole Ocean Engineering Department, told the Times."

"Not so, Ballard admitted, and that wasn't the only one."

"I cannot talk about my other Navy missions, no," he said. "They have yet to be declassified."

https://www.cnn.com/2018/12/13/us/titanic-discovery-classified-nuclear-sub/index.html

How much can anyone believe the news being reported about the war in Ukraine?

In the UK? Common sense and spending just a little time listening to sources other than anything to do with politics, governments and state media. Just a suggestion.

There are PLENTY of young Russians posting information to YouTube from both within and outside of Russia, just for example.

This is headed into the realms of lunatic conspiracy theories SO fast.

It was interesting to read about the USS Thresher and the USS Scorpion, two American nuclear subs that sank in the 1960s. Fancy leaving the nuclear weapons in place - they seemed keen on adding nuclear warheads to many things in the 50s. Like the BOMARC - nuclear anti-aircraft missile, which was going to be launched over the USA. All the fuss about firing missiles at balloons recently...

In the UK they like to tell us about the wreck of the SS Richard Montgomery a WW2 munitions ship in the Thames estuary, which has been left untouched and is disintegrating. If it exploded there would be drastic consequences for London.

The powers that be could tell us what it took to bomb the Nordstream, hobby divers (as has been suggested) or only a first rank power like the USA. I can't imagine the USA and all the rest of NATO outright denying it and then having to admit to it.

Today UK media has been remembering 20 years since the invasion of Iraq - they've been quite scathing about the false information used to support it.

Oh well, Iraq. Chancellor Schröder was absolutely right not to join that one. Unfortunately that did seem to use up his reservoir of good ideas, seeing how he clings to Gazprom these days...

Quote from: David Pilling on March 20, 2023, 06:22:32 PMI can't imagine the USA and all the rest of NATO outright denying it and then having to admit to it.

This has, in fact, been done repeatedly.  It is Standard Operating Procedure.  During the late 60s, the news media was eagerly reporting that Howard Hughes was building the ship the Glomar Explorer, that was supposed to be involved in mining mineral nodules from the ocean floor. The media pushed the false story endlessly and it was such a successful story, that other companies started to invest money to recover these nodules from the ocean's depths also. In fact, it was a massive CIA lie that was fed to the news media.  The real story came out years later when it was finally declassified.  The Titanic and Glomar Explorer lies are probably just the tip of the iceberg (pun intended) of the lies fed to a complacent news media and pushed off on the public.  Again, I recall no outrage on the part of the news media about being used by the CIA to lie to the public. Not a peep....... 

During the Cold War, the CIA Secretly Plucked a Soviet Submarine From the Ocean Floor Using a Giant Claw

https://www.smithsonianmag.com/history/during-cold-war-ci-secretly-plucked-soviet-submarine-ocean-floor-using-giant-claw-180972154/

Who knows how many nuclear reactors and nuclear weapons are lying on the ocean floor or other inaccessible areas on the earth's surface?  How many are lost in space?

Mentions of the two lost sub's does reveal that the statement -

Quote from: Bern on March 20, 2023, 08:38:20 AMIn 1985, Dr. Robert Ballard at Woods Hole Oceanographic Institution, discovered the remains of the Titanic in what was presented by the news media as a purely scientific effort.  In short, it was a top secret US government mission to identify and study the wreckage of two sunken US nuclear submarines.

Is incorrect.

There was a "deal" between the Navy/Pentagon and Ballard - his team would check the known wrecks of the sub's and then he could use the loaned submersible to search for the Titanic.

The Scorpion is SW of The Azores, The Thresher is 200 miles E of Cape Cod and were known long before the discovery of the Titanic, which is around 350 miles SE of Newfoundland. I don't think that anyone could possibly, realistically, suggest that inspection of the sub's could in any way lead to finding the Titanic.

Quote from: Bern on March 21, 2023, 06:13:54 AMAgain, I recall no outrage on the part of the news media about being used by the CIA to lie to the public. Not a peep...

News media don't usually complain about secrets, if there were no secrets they'd have nothing to reveal. Part of revealing the secret is indignation about it. As they say it is the cover up that often does the damage, rather than the original crime - Watergate etc.

Media have their own rules, a lot is not reported, either because of legal limits, or good practice.

Nordstream remains a mystery, who benefits(?) I believe gas continues to flow West in pipes going through Ukraine. But blowing them up would not be as deniable.

Quote from: CG100 on March 21, 2023, 11:51:31 AMThere was a "deal" between the Navy/Pentagon and Ballard - his team would check the known wrecks of the sub's and then he could use the loaned submersible to search for the Titanic.

Ballard was a commissioned Navy Officer stationed at Woods Hole. I don't think there was much of a deal brokered; he was probably ordered to conduct the mission, but he might have had some say in the decision.

Woods Hole has a long history of developing advanced submersibles.  I believe that the submersible used was developed at Woods Hole and perhaps Ballard had a role in its design. I believe the Navy heavily funds Woods Hole.

https://www.whoi.edu/what-we-do/explore/underwater-vehicles/hov-alvin/history-of-alvin/

https://www.whoi.edu/know-your-ocean/ocean-topics/ocean-tech/underwater-vehicles/

It's all in the CNN article.  Here are some quotes from Ballard himself about the deception.

"They did not want the world to know that, so I had to have a cover story," Ballard said.

The search for the Titanic served as a great cover story, and the press was "totally oblivious to what I was doing," he said.

https://www.cnn.com/2018/12/13/us/titanic-discovery-classified-nuclear-sub/index.html

Bern - the sunken sub's and Titanic are SO far apart, that the story as portrayed by you can be nothing but sheer nonsense. It is akin to me stating that I discovered Australasia one day, when I walked to the bottom of my garden.

It is utter nonsense.