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Off-Topic Area => General Off-Topic => Topic started by: Bern on September 03, 2022, 09:59:17 AM

Title: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: Bern on September 03, 2022, 09:59:17 AM
How bad is the energy situation in Europe now?  There are all kinds of dire predictions being published in the news in the USA about an impending disaster in Europe this winter due to energy shortages and prices, particularly for natural gas.  The only believable story I've read is from a letter published by the President of the International Euphorbia Society in their most recent journal.  He said that he has had discussions with members, presumably in the Netherlands, who have stated that they are concerned that they will not be able to afford to heat their greenhouses this winter and beyond. Is the situation really this bad for plant hobbyists with greenhouses?  What's really going on in Europe now with this situation?

Thanks,

Bern in Williamsburg, Virginia 
Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: David Pilling on September 03, 2022, 10:47:12 AM
Europe made itself highly dependent on Russia for gas and then decided to fight a war with Russia. Guess what happens next. Rationing and super high prices.
In the UK which produces 50% of its gas from its own area of the North sea and buys the remainder from Norway, prices are predicted to rise by five times.

Something has to be done or else a lot of people will freeze/become insolvent. We're waiting to see what happens - various sorts of government intervention are in the offing.

At the moment it does not look too clever because Germany has given its people money to buy the same limited amount of gas that France has given people money to buy and that we assume the UK will shortly give people money for.

I'd not thought about plants - it will depend how the government intervention works - making gas cheaper but not so cheap people waste it.

Business is another game - they can be told to reduce their usage, or paid to reduce it, or just be rationed.

In summary there is a reason why the dollar is shooting up in value at the moment - fracking.

PS the MSM are hysterical about the situation and since I read the news every five minutes...
Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: Bern on September 03, 2022, 02:46:19 PM
So it looks like the news is truthful about the cost increases and energy shortages this winter in Europe.  If natural gas goes up 5X in the UK and an equivalent or greater amount in the EU, then people with hobby greenhouses might get squeezed quite a bit this winter.  I imagine that the large bulb and plant production operations in the Netherlands might have their operations seriously impacted if they maintain extensive greenhouses.  If they have to cut back on energy costs by not heating all of their facilities this winter, then most likely there will be fewer plants and bulbs to export next year.  Also, there are a lot of rare and interesting plants residing in hobby greenhouses.  I hope that they can be preserved in cultivation through the coming winter if the energy situation in Europe is going to be as bad as predicted. 
Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: David Pilling on September 03, 2022, 04:39:24 PM
It is an interesting question. For example food is produced in heated greenhouses in the North of Europe. Will that vanish.
I am not a typical example but in most Winters these days I can get away without heating my greenhouse for frost protection.
Right now, we don't know what the costs will be and what will be available. We actually don't know who will be the leader of the UK on Monday afternoon.
Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: Martin Bohnet on September 03, 2022, 11:51:56 PM
Quote from: David Pilling on September 03, 2022, 10:47:12 AMEurope made itself highly dependent on Russia for gas and then decided to fight a war with Russia. Guess what happens next. Rationing and super high prices.
Just to make that  clear: Europe has not decided to fight a war with Russia. The only thing we decided was that we can't just follow Starfleet's prime directive of non-involvement, as we don't follow Putin's history distortion styling this as an internal Russian affair.

That said, I'm in the lucky position that I only need frost protection in the Greenhouse-ish sidebuilding (more massive than a greenhouse and thus less thermal variance) for about 4 weeks per winter, and my financial resources  can deal with a massive increase in price, at least for one or two winters. What I'm afraid of is actually some kind of decree to force me into not heating - but I'm also afraid of water rationing in the summer. Future will be not funny for plant growers.
Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: David Pilling on September 04, 2022, 03:45:17 AM
The great dictators get their taste for power from horticulture. It's funny to go around the garden pointing out "that was Napoleon's favorite" etc.

"Putin Has Instituted A Four-Day 'Gardening Holiday' "

"Russians Turn to Their Gardens to Offset Sanctions"

"What Does a Putin Garden Gnome Tell Us About Contemporary Politics?"

"Gardening Australia - A day with Putin - YouTube"

Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: Bern on September 04, 2022, 06:01:45 AM
I hadn't as yet considered the impact on vegetable production in greenhouses in Europe during the winter.  It follows that if energy costs for these greenhouses increases, then the costs of the crops they grow will be passed on to the people who purchase what they produce. This will be another and very immediate barometer for increased energy prices.  Have you noticed an increase in food prices in the UK and Europe?  Food prices have escalated substantially in the US recently, mostly as result of the inflation caused by the massive stimulus funding enabled by the Federal Reserve Bank and Congress as a response to the covid pandemic.  And also as a result of the increased costs of gasoline and diesel used in transporting food from farm to market.  Much of the increased costs of gasoline and diesel apparently can be attributed to government sanctions against Russia.

Bern in Williamsburg, Virginia
Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: David Pilling on September 04, 2022, 09:24:58 AM
Prices have gone up, the headline inflation numbers don't lie. A noticeable example was cooking oil (rapeseed for example) which doubled in price overnight - an obvious link to Ukraine which produces a lot of sunflower oil. Most food has gone up by a less noticeable 10-15%. It's very easy to pick an item of food and it will be more expensive than a year ago.

Petrol got to within pennies of £2 per litre, but has come down since to maybe £1.65 now.

Comparisons are complex, the pound is down 20% against the dollar this year, and there is a lot of tax on petrol.

Looking on the bright side, I am currently pricing flower bulbs, and prices seem around the same as a year ago, they'd gone up quite a bit in the previous year. Not everyone sees them as essentials.

Good time to be buying Dutch bulbs from the USA - dollar/euro parity.
Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: Bern on September 07, 2022, 08:29:26 AM
So David, it looks like you are paying about 2X what I'm paying for gasoline factoring in the exchange rate and the liter to gallon conversion.  And I also pay a lot of taxes on gasoline.  Amazingly, even when gasoline was at a high of about $4.50 per gallon, I could not detect any noticeable reduction here in road traffic.  I wonder how high the price of gasoline would have to be in the USA before it noticeably affected the amount of traffic on the roads.  I don't really want to find out.  Anyway, there is a lot going on with energy and the GBP and USD are now almost at parity.  I am still hoping that plant hobbyists and plant businesses will have enough resources to pay to heat their greenhouses this winter.  We will shortly know the answer to this. 
Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: Bern on September 07, 2022, 01:46:38 PM
And today's news in the USA about European natural gas supplies from Russia is that they have indefinitely halted gas supplies to Europe through the main pipeline.  Furthermore, the Russian Government has stated that it will not supply any energy products to any European government that introduces price caps on Russian energy. Apparently energy prices in Europe are skyrocketing in price on this news. I'm no longer just concerned about hobby greenhouses and commercial greenhouses, but it now appears that even the prime public European botanical conservatories will be adversely affected.
Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: David Pilling on September 07, 2022, 03:18:38 PM
When I was a child the coin I was given for my weekly pocket money was referred to as "half a dollar". This terminology must have come from the sunny days between the wars, because there were eight of them to the pound. At the same time (1960s) one could get four gallons of petrol for a pound, and those were Imperial gallons (bigger than US gallons).

A year ago, the average cost of gas and electricity for a UK household was around £1000, the government will now use its cheque book to limit the cost going forward to £2500. That's an average, there are small households, and ones where people spend most of the day at work, others pay a lot more. There will be a similar subsidy for business.

Some people who have large illuminated Christmas displays outside their houses have announced they won't this time.

Ornamental plants survived the war, despite a ban on growing them.

Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: Lee Poulsen on September 08, 2022, 01:13:33 AM
I just checked and the pound is only $1.15, which is what the euro used to be. Has it gotten that low before? (When I was a little boy and collected stamps I think the pound was something like $2.40. I always thought it made British stamps so expensive.)

And speaking of losing plant collections because of not having enough energy to bring them through the winter, I think a similar kind of problem is going to happen more and more often to those living in warm climates and having mega droughts such that one can't water their plants during the hottest days. Luckily I wasn't in the area of the Los Angeles metropolitan area that is supposed to not water anything outside for all of this week and next week right when we are in the midst of the longest September heatwave since records began. It has basically been hitting around 40°C/104°F plus or minus everywhere except in those areas closest to the beach for more than a week now and continuing till this Saturday when it will finally cool down. Plus, the nighttime lows have been unusually high for this area during that entire time, never dropping below about 24°C/75°F with one morning only getting down to 27°C/81°F (instead of normally dropping into the 60s F/<20°C at night), and unusually humid. It has felt like the southeastern US summer weather. I don't now how non-dormant plants could survive no water at all if it had been in the 100s for two entire weeks, especially those in pots.
Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: David Pilling on September 08, 2022, 03:46:44 AM
I recall the pound toying with US dollar parity, probably in the 70s. The headlines say it was the 80s when it was last at the current level.

Buying stuff in the UK, a common observation has been that prices in dollars are turned into prices in pounds, despite the pound (in the past) being worth substantially more than a dollar.

Plant collections will have to move to more suitable climes.

Now how to turn my stamp collection into heat... sell or burn. Oddly enough the problem has been keeping it dry.
Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: Bern on September 08, 2022, 10:57:53 AM
I remember purchasing pounds in London for about 2 dollars a pound.  I was surprised then to find that the pound only had the purchasing power of 1 dollar.  An easier way to say this is that prices in England were twice as much as in the US.  This was during the 1990s if I remember correctly.  It sounds like that trend has continued.

California and much of the rest of the western USA have been hammered by record heat for the last week or so.  You know it's hot out West when the temps in Tucson, Arizona at the same time are milder by comparison.

Here in the southeast USA we are watching the beginning of the hurricane season.  It seems to have started earlier this year and it could be a very sporty season if they continue to form at the current rate and some of them make landfall.  I had a conversation recently with a realtor in northwest Florida and she told me that they don't have hurricanes in that part of the state.  It's like saying that there aren't any earthquakes in certain parts of Los Angeles.  Really?

Where would there be a more suitable clime for a plant collection today?
Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: Robin Hansen on September 08, 2022, 03:25:48 PM
My son was recently posted to Tyndall AFB in the (northwest) panhandle. I do hear there is not the vulnerability to hurricanes compared to other parts of Florida, but if the panhandle doesn't get them, how is it those hurricanes land in Louisiana and Mississippi right next door???

Am I crazy to go there for Thanksgiving???

Robin Hansen
Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: janemcgary on September 08, 2022, 04:03:05 PM
Bern asked where would be a good place in the USA for a "plant collection." The answer is that you pick your place, then you choose the plants that will do well there. When I left Alaska I chose western Oregon as a place with moderate seasons and a reliable water supply (though we're now about 65 days since the last rain). I've never heated my bulb collection, though I did cover it with microfoam row-cover sheets during severe cold snaps when I lived at a higher elevation. Now I put vulnerable container plants on the patio floor and cover them with the "mover's quilts" you can buy cheaply at discount hardware stores. These measures would probably bring most greenhouse subjects through the coldest temperatures that might occur in England. However, a severe winter may turn some people away from South African species and toward the more resilient plants of the Mediterranean and the western Americas.
Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: Lee Poulsen on September 08, 2022, 04:13:19 PM
And the Washington Post just published this on how bad the Western US heatwave has been:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/climate-environment/2022/09/08/western-heatwave-records-california-climate/

I know Europe has had similarly hot weather this summer too.

Has anyone lost any of their plants because of the excessive heat?
Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: Bern on September 08, 2022, 04:28:28 PM
Much of the hurricane vulnerability predictions by regular folks in Florida and the rest of the SE USA are based on the frequency of prior hurricanes making landfall in a particular location.  If you live anywhere along the Gulf or Atlantic coastlines, you can be impacted by a hurricane.  If a hurricane has hit a particular area in the past, but has not done so for a very long time, it might mean statistically that that area is due for one.  Hurricane season usually starts to wind down toward the end of November.  Just keep checking the National Hurricane Center's website before you go to see if there are any storms headed to where you are going.  The site is excellent. https://www.nhc.noaa.gov/  There currently is one named hurricane in the Atlantic and two more are teeing up potentially to form additional ones.
 
Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: David Pilling on September 08, 2022, 05:09:14 PM
When thinking about where to have a garden, I imagine islands off the West coast of England/Scotland, or the bit of England that pokes out into the Atlantic (Cornwall). They are frost free, and get rain.

Plants are not bothered by the modest heatwave we got here in the North West of England. I didn't enjoy it much though.

Does depend on the plants, the blue meconopsis will have moved a few miles further North this year.

Warm Summers bring with them more pests - caterpillars.
Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: Bern on September 09, 2022, 06:07:22 AM
Jane is totally correct that the best approach is to pick your location and then choose the plants that will grow well there. I've spent a lot of time trying to coax along plants that don't do well in my climate zone. I've been looking at different locations around the US for a more permanent retirement home and I've had to give up on locating the "perfect" spot. There are challenges wherever I've looked.  It's either too hot, too cold, too dry, too wet, and now too expensive! Proceed ahead cheerfully, roll with the punches, learn what you can, and enjoy the ride. 
Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: janemcgary on September 09, 2022, 11:38:49 AM
Lee asked if anyone has lost plants to excessive heat. Of course. When I moved from about 1600 feet/500 m elevation down to about 120 ft above sea level, I could no longer grow the blue meconopsis David mentioned, and many of my prized alpine Ericaceae died. Almost all my bulbs are summer-dormant, so no problems there. On the other hand, as soon as it cools off a bit I'm going to plant a Telopea (Australian Proteaceae), and Zantedeschia rehmannii just flowered in the garden. You have to live with your place a year or two to understand what to plant where, and make microclimates, especially if you need to limit irrigation. And be prepared to lose some of your bets.
Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: Bern on September 10, 2022, 09:59:08 AM
The US National Hurricane Center just released their new, interactive Storm Surge Risk Maps for Hurricane Categories 1 to 5.  This is an excellent tool.  It clearly shows that hurricane damage, especially storm surge, can occur many miles inland even if you are not directly impacted by a hurricane making landfall where you live. Interestingly, even Southern California can be affected by hurricanes. Many of the Atlantic hurricanes that don't make landfall on the US mainland make their way up to the North Atlantic and then impact the UK and parts of western Europe.  It appears that the current hurricane Earl will take this route.

"This national depiction of storm surge flooding vulnerability helps people living in hurricane-prone coastal areas. These maps make it clear that storm surge is not just a beachfront problem, with the risk of storm surge extending many miles inland from the immediate coastline in some areas. Storm Surge Risk Maps are provided for the US Gulf and East Coasts, Hawaii, Southern California, US territories - Puerto Rico, US Virgin Islands, Guam and American Samoa. Additional mapped areas include Hispaniola and parts of the Yucatan Peninsula."

https://experience.arcgis.com/experience/203f772571cb48b1b8b50fdcc3272e2c/page/Category-1/
Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: Robin Hansen on September 10, 2022, 10:14:25 AM
Interesting that these storms on the west coast are now being called "hurricanes". I forget the previous name which never made sense to me as even when we had the Columbus Day storm in the early 60s here on the Pacific Northwest coast it was, simply, a hurricane. It will be forever imprinted on my conscious brain.

Interesting also that the maps to Bern's link show no hurricane activity at all further north than southern California. I would suspect that we are somewhat more likely to have an occasional hurricane these days because of climate change.

Robin Hansen
Southwestern Oregon, smoky, hot, humid
Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: Robert_Parks on September 10, 2022, 02:31:43 PM
Quote from: Robin Hansen on September 10, 2022, 10:14:25 AMInteresting that these storms on the west coast are now being called "hurricanes". I forget the previous name which never made sense to me as even when we had the Columbus Day storm in the early 60s here on the Pacific Northwest coast it was, simply, a hurricane. It will be forever imprinted on my conscious brain.

Interesting also that the maps to Bern's link show no hurricane activity at all further north than southern California. I would suspect that we are somewhat more likely to have an occasional hurricane these days because of climate change.

Robin Hansen
Southwestern Oregon, smoky, hot, humid

From National Geographic...
QuoteThe storms that rage across the western Pacific Ocean (in the Eastern Hemisphere) are called typhoons, while the ones spawned in the Atlantic and eastern Pacific (the Western Hemisphere) are called hurricanes. Those born in the South Pacific and Indian Ocean are known as cyclones.

Robert
in mild, humid San Francisco...where there is a slight possibility of precipitation from the remnants of a hurricane.
Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: Bern on September 10, 2022, 05:52:00 PM
Robin, many of the folks I've known in Florida say they never have hurricanes where they live. But, if you check the history, most of the time you'll find it is not true. It must be some form of denial. Anyway, for the people living in Panama City near Tyndall Air Force Base to say this takes denial to a new level. In October 2018, Mexico Beach, Florida, only 15 miles from Tyndall, was walloped with a Cat 5 hurricane in October 2018.  This was the first Cat 5 to hit the US mainland since Katrina in August 2005 (I believe). Perhaps people living in these areas deal with the danger by denying its existence. I wonder if the same is true for earthquakes with people living in California?  Anyway, if you look at the storm surge map and find Tyndall Air Force Base, and then click on the hurricane category levels, you can see what happens as the storms become more intense. But don't worry about it, they will have evacuated long before a dangerous storm hits the base.

I hope that the remnants of hurricane Earl dissipate and don't reach the UK later in the week to discomfit the English gardeners. 

Also, I checked the temps in Berlin for the next week.  It looks like the average high temp will be about 65F (18C) and the average low temp will be about 52F (11C).  At these temps folks will be turning on the heat in their houses. People and institutions with greenhouses will be considering heating them at night with the colder weather. With low temps such like this, we won't have to wait until winter to hear what's going on with heating bills and greenhouses in Europe.

And finally, my favorite name for these types of storms is Typhoon. 
Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: Robin Hansen on September 10, 2022, 06:10:49 PM
Have to say I'm still chuckling over hurricane denial, which is quite different from zonal denial...

It was 93 here yesterday with smoke and while plants wilted, mostly the more newly planted ones, everything responded to a little water reviver. In terms of good growing conditions, I have to say I've lived a number of places in Oregon and this area - Coquille Valley, 12-14 miles upriver from the Pacific - is the best yet.

However, considering I'm a member (and have been since birth) of the James G. Blaine Society, I will echo Gov. Tom McCall's famous words, along the lines of "you're welcome to visit, but please go home". Not the exact quote, but never mind.

And yes, I"m sticking to hurricanes - they don't seem to care which ocean they originate from and they still make an incredible mess and create long-term damage.

Well, the rest of our lifetimes promise to be interesting, no matter what. In the meantime, the water bill increased substantially but our chances of losing power here from shutdowns to avoid fire danger are nil.
Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: Robert_Parks on September 10, 2022, 07:04:21 PM
Quote from: Bern on September 10, 2022, 05:52:00 PMI wonder if the same is true for earthquakes with people living in California?
Not much earthquake denialism here...mostly people will recite where they were/what they were doing for every major EQ they've experienced.

As to the exchange rate, buying geophyte books from NHBS in the UK is a bit less painful than usual.

There are pluses and minuses in every place to garden...the cold foggy gale here is a challenge, but if I put fog catchers on the roof I could come close to water independence.

Robert
cool and humid today, thanks to remnants of Kay plus high wildfire smoke
Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: Bern on September 15, 2022, 05:50:01 PM
Do you believe we're hearing the full story about the energy situation in Europe from media sources in the US?  I admit to being a bit skeptical about what I'm hearing and reading.  On the other hand, when I try to dig deeper and find sources that are unbiased, I encounter people making worst case scenario predictions. Here's an example from an internet site that is tracking the war in Ukraine and the energy situation in Europe. I'm also skeptical about the following predictions.

QuoteSGM World News @SGMWorldnews - 10:13 UTC · 7 Sep 2022
BREAKING: 40 CEOs of European metal producers have wrote an open letter to Ursula von der Leyen and the European Commission warning of an "existential threat" to industry as power prices surge.
"No steel smelter, no taxes from steel smelters and their workers. No steel smelter, no payback of credit given to it. The big banking losses coming now will cause another severe banking crisis. Less money for the state means less pensions and healthcare. This is ruinous for European states and their inhabitants."
QuoteTuomas Malinen @mtmalinen - 8:53 UTC · Sep 7, 2022
I am telling you people that the situation in #Europe is much worse than many understand.
We are essentially on the brink of another banking crisis, a collapse of our industrial base and households, and thus on the brink of the collapse of our economies.
We are also totally at the mercy of the authorities, and we have very little knowledge what they have planned.
Will they be able to stop the onset of the banking crisis, yet again? I don't know, but I am doubtful. 🤷�♂️🤔

At least for now, I'm going to wait and watch to see if a more consistent story develops as time goes by.  If the energy situation worsens in Europe as the cold weather sets in during the Autumn and Winter, it will be plain for all to see and the story won't be able to be embellished.  And I got interested in this initially because I wondered if plant people in Europe were going to be able to afford to heat their greenhouses in Europe this winter.
Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: David Pilling on September 16, 2022, 08:02:46 AM
Mr Putin will have instructed his Troll army to point out the worst that might happen - can't take at face value what is in the comments. There is scope to stir up popular unhappiness.

OTOH Germany's Economy Minister Robert Habeck was asked whether he expected a wave of insolvencies at the end of this winter. "No, I do not. I can imagine that certain industries will simply stop producing for the time being," he said. Citing bakeries as an example.

Hmm.

I don't think we know. Putin might lose his job, war over, return to normal. It might be a good Winter (warm with lots of wind to keep the turbines turning), or just very cold with no wind.

If peace does not break out, the armies will soon dig in for Winter. It is then all about how much damage the energy weapon inflicts.

Spring 2023 we can do it all again, and so on.

Big winners USA and China. Losers Ukraine, EU/UK etc.

Russia is in the winner camp at the moment, when it joins the losers we may see some progress.
Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: Bern on September 16, 2022, 04:14:10 PM
I agree completely with you about not taking what's in the news at face value. That's why it is good to have sources that have more direct information that's reliable.  The comments from the German Economics Minister are quite interesting.  Would he really order bakeries to stop producing this winter?  Did anyone ask him what people were going to eat if they can't purchase bread?  Did he respond "let them eat cake?" 

It is also interesting to read your comments about the USA and China being big winners in this and the losers being Ukraine, EU, and UK.  There was an article with a catchy title being circulated on various internet news sites recently.  It was written by economist Michael Hudson and the title is: America Defeats Germany for the Third Time in a Century.  Despite the title being sure to tick some people off, it was a cogent piece of work.

I have a more direct news source locally that I sometimes ask about what's going on in Ukraine.  He's a Ukrainian immigrant that left there before the current troubles.  I run into him at the local park where I take my daily walks.  He speaks almost no English and I speak zero Ukrainian, but he has a cell phone with Google translator and with that magic we're able to converse a bit.  In short, he thinks Zelensky and his cronies are crooks that have stolen money and stashed it away in western banks so they'll have it when they go into exile later.  He hates it that "nazis and nationalists" came into power after the 2014 coup.  And he believes that there should have been a negotiated settlement to avoid the war.  He's a skilled handyman - carpenter, electrician, ceramic tile, etc.  He showed me photos of some of his remodeling jobs and they were very good.

Finally, on the weather front in this hemisphere, the news is that the remnants of the Pacific Typhoon Merbok will slam into Alaska soon and a possible Atlantic Hurricane Fiona may be up by me by next Friday.  It's always something.....
Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: Martin Bohnet on September 17, 2022, 12:39:58 AM
Well, I'm in camp "Trolling is Russia's style", so I actually take the unofficial positions with a lot more salt than the ARD/ZDF/BBC ones, their journalistic standards are indeed high. I guess Americans have trouble understanding that, as from what I see you don't really have independent media. There's a reason the European right wing parties want to get rid of public funding of those networks. Industry lobbyists on the other hands... well, crying "we'll all die if you don't do exactly as we say" is part of their business model.

As for Habeck: His style of communication is highly unusual for a politician, usually tending towards the honest side, even for green party standards. German Greens are very pragmatic - and accused of being ideologically blinded by those who really are (like neoliberalistic FDP and conservatives).

Is Putin on the winner side? I doubt. His army is rapidly devolving - every computer chip they loose can't be replaced - not even by china unless they get hold of Taiwan. So that's the true goal: showing China what awaits them should they try to step on that Island. Is china on the winning side? mildly concerning cheap resources, mostly because Putin has difficulties moving the wares to the east - too little investment in infrastructure is a traditional problem in Russia. On the other hand: if the Russians had invested in Infrastructure and maybe some education, a land with such rich resources may have florished without imperialistic nonsense. I also doubt the "new axis China-Russia": Russia sees itself on eye level with China - China doesn't. Combine that with Putin's ego -> no future scenario.

Will we Europeans get through relatively unscathed? It really depends on the severity of the winter. Long term prognoses for Germany are 2-3 Kelvin above 1960-89 reference period, and still .5-1.5 K above 1990-2019 reference - let's hope they're precise. The Industry will adapt - the sooner they stop screaming and start seeing opportunities, the better.
Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: David Pilling on September 17, 2022, 04:05:43 AM
Unbiased, so lets see the BBC produce a programme "10 good things about climate change".

They also have not found fault with the current Ukraine regime. One of the other UK news outlets did a programme pointing out that their treatment of the disabled would prevent them from joining the EU.

I recall an EU politician saying that Europe was paying Russia as much as a year ago, but receiving far less in return. One of the first moves in the West was to hand over to Russia lots of assets - e.g. Shell/BP projects. Unlike the pound/euro the Rouble has held its value against the dollar.

For these gains they have paid a price in blood.

Putin did look like the junior partner in the recent meeting with China, but maybe he sees China as the future and Europe as the past.

The BBC is a great thing and we could not manage without it, but it does present an alternative reality. I would not criticise US media.

At the moment my favourite news source online is Reuters, because it has very little opinion.

Any idea how to join the wumao (50 cent party), seems like good money to me.

(Internet commentators who are hired by the authorities of the People's Republic of China to manipulate public opinion and disseminate disinformation to the benefit of the governing Chinese Communist Party (CCP)).
Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: Bern on September 18, 2022, 07:28:54 AM
I have observed over time that the news in the US has transitioned from being news with true and useful content to being news with political propaganda content.  In my opinion, US news is now mostly either Republican Party propaganda or Democratic Party propaganda - sometimes with some useful content to try to diminish the appearance of bias and propaganda.  I now use the internet to read the AP News and sometimes Reuters because these sites have less opinion and hence less propaganda.  I quit watching news on TV altogether and I don't miss it at all.  A friend of mine's husband had a head injury at work that left him with some substantial disabilities. When's she is busy during the day, she will sometimes set him up in front of the television so he's both safe and engaged while she does her chores. She related that she did this once and turned on one of the dreaded 24 hour news channels and a bit later she heard him screaming at the TV because of the content.  Do you ever find yourself screaming at the TV when the news is on?
Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: David Pilling on September 18, 2022, 12:56:49 PM
Bern - thanks for the pointer to the AP News site.
The channels can certainly be irritating - its called engagement.
Throwing TVs into swimming pools is not as cathartic since they got rid of the high voltages and glass tubes.
Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: Bern on September 18, 2022, 04:12:08 PM
I took my tube TV to the electronic recycling site at the local landfill to get rid of it. I wanted to smash it, but that's so un-PC. I haven't replaced it with a flat screen TV and I don't intend to.  Here's some advice from an old John Denver song from 1971.  It seemed relevant then and it seems relevant now. Enjoy.

Blow Up Your TV (Spanish Pipe Dream)
Song by John Denver

Lyrics

She was a level-headed dancer on the road to alcohol
And I was just a soldier on my way to Montreal
Well she pressed her chest against me
About the time the juke box broke
Yeah, she gave me a peck on the back of the neck
And these are the words she spoke

Blow up your TV throw away your paper
Go to the country, build you a home
Plant a little garden, eat a lot of peaches
Try an find Jesus on your own

Well, I sat there at the table and I acted real naive
For I knew that topless lady had something up her sleeve
Well, she danced around the bar room and she did the hoochy-coo
Yeah she sang her song all night long, tellin' me what to do

Blow up your TV throw away your paper
Go to the country, build you a home
Plant a little garden, eat a lot of peaches
Try an find Jesus on your own

Well, I was young and hungry and about to leave that place
When just as I was leavin', well she looked me in the face
I said "You must know the answer."
"She said, "No but I'll give it a try."
And to this very day we've been livin' our way
And here is the reason why

We blew up our TV threw away our paper
Went to the country, built us a home
Had a lot of children, fed 'em on peaches
They all found Jesus on their own

Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: David Pilling on September 18, 2022, 07:18:49 PM
Good old John Denver, had his own TV series in the UK. The song is apparently by John Prine. Back from the time people worried about watching too much TV.
Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: Bern on September 28, 2022, 07:49:38 AM
There were some postings on this thread about hurricanes. I returned yesterday from Miami, Florida where I attended the International Aroid Society's annual show, sale, and banquet at the Fairchild Botanical Gardens last weekend.  I had to change my flight to leave early to avoid the wrath of hurricane Ian.  It's about ready to slam into the Sarasota area.  Here's a link to the National Weather Service radar in Sarasota.  You can clearly see the eyewall of the storm as it makes landfall in real time. 

https://radar.weather.gov/?settings=v1_eyJhZ2VuZGEiOnsiaWQiOiJsb2NhbCIsImNlbnRlciI6Wy04Mi4yOTksMjYuNjI4XSwibG9jYXRpb24iOm51bGwsInpvb20iOjgsImZpbHRlciI6IldTUi04OEQiLCJsYXllciI6ImJyZWZfcmF3Iiwic3RhdGlvbiI6IktUQlcifSwiYW5pbWF0aW5nIjp0cnVlLCJiYXNlIjoic3RhbmRhcmQiLCJhcnRjYyI6ZmFsc2UsImNvdW50eSI6ZmFsc2UsImN3YSI6ZmFsc2UsInJmYyI6ZmFsc2UsInN0YXRlIjpmYWxzZSwibWVudSI6dHJ1ZSwic2hvcnRGdXNlZE9ubHkiOnRydWUsIm9wYWNpdHkiOnsiYWxlcnRzIjowLjgsImxvY2FsIjowLjYsImxvY2FsU3RhdGlvbnMiOjAuOCwibmF0aW9uYWwiOjAuNn19

It should work if you copy and paste the link into your browser.  I'm reconsidering my desires to relocate to Florida now.
Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: Bern on September 28, 2022, 01:34:18 PM
Here's the GOES satellite view of Hurricane Ian in geocolor.  It's very good.

https://www.star.nesdis.noaa.gov/GOES/conus_band.php?sat=G16&band=GEOCOLOR&length=24


Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: Bern on September 28, 2022, 04:25:02 PM
It appears that the Bank of England stepped in today to try to defend the GBP from falling by purchasing UK government bonds in an attempt to squash the rise in long term interst rates.  Will this affect the cost of energy in the UK this winter by making it less expensive? Will this move by the BOE be successful?  Will the GBP come under pressure again soon?  The US stock market loved the news and US stocks rose today and the 10 year US treasury yield fell. I think that this is transitory and it will start to erode fairly soon. Can David or anyone else in the UK opine on what is going on with the BOE's action?
Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: Bern on September 29, 2022, 04:00:29 PM
I just read that there's been an incident with the Nord Stream 2 pipeline under the Baltic Sea that renders it unable to supply natural gas to Europe. This alone seems assured to raise heating bills this winter and make heating greenhouses and regular abodes more expensive.  Who is responsible for this? Did NATO do it?  Did the Russians do it?  Was it an accident?  Does it matter anymore?
Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: Randy Linke on September 30, 2022, 12:12:32 AM
Four ruptures following sizeable explosions that were measurable on the Richter scale to a heavily reinforced pipeline is hardly accidental.
Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: David Pilling on September 30, 2022, 03:35:16 AM
The UK government fixed energy prices some weeks ago - that's the end of worrying about energy prices here. The cost is estimated to be 150 billion and the scheme will last for two years. They did not fund this spending and that was the prelude to what followed...

Given His Majesties Government is paying, I can keep my bulbs as cozy as I like.

Energy costs are around 2.5 times what they were a year ago, in addition to being fixed there have also been handouts of cash, more to those in greatest need.

A week ago HMG announced tax cuts, again unfunded, and that lead to a fall in the value of the pound this week.

The knock on effects were problems for pension companies and worries about the housing market. The Bank of England started to buy bonds to protect pension companies (who are holders of UK debt and were having problems selling it).

Full scale panic in the media here.


Nordstream 2 was not in operation and has never been used, and given the war probably never would have been. Nordstream 1 was not in operation due to "maintenance". No immediate effect then.

Whodunnit? Will be interesting, but unlikely to ever be answered.
Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: Bern on September 30, 2022, 05:48:54 AM
I agree completely that the destruction of the pipeline was no accident. And I also agree that we will never know for sure who was responsible.

The Financial Times had the following titles for some of their online articles this morning.

"Eurozone inflation hits record 10% as energy prices continue to soar"

"UK government bond tumult ripples into US and European markets"

Earlier this week Hurricane Ian chased me out of Miami Florida a day early. Today, the remnants of it will drench the area wheri I live with between 4 and 6 inches of rain.

We live in interesting times.....

Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: MarkMazer on September 30, 2022, 08:43:18 AM
Pipeline...  https://thelawdogfiles.com/2022/09/nordstream.html
Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: Bern on September 30, 2022, 10:14:52 AM
Reuters pipeline news article.  Until now I had not known that both Nord Stream 1 and Nord Stream 2 had been damaged.

https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/russias-spy-chief-says-moscow-has-evidence-west-behind-sabotage-nord-stream-2022-09-30/

Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: Bern on October 02, 2022, 09:36:36 AM
Headline from article in the UK Guardian. 

Britons to burn their bills in weekend wave of cost of living protests

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/oct/01/cost-of-living-protests-burn-energy-bills

This is an interesting occurrence in the UK this weekend.  It's difficult to get a good idea about how large and extensive these protests were.  Were they well attended?  Are similar protests occurring in Germany and on the continent?  I find it very difficult to get decent news here in the US about what's going on in Europe.


Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: Bern on October 02, 2022, 01:36:57 PM
Russia Today (RT) was taken offline at the beginning of the Ukraine war and I found today that it is back.  Here's a headline from them about the utility bill protests in the UK.

Britons burn energy bills to protest soaring prices (VIDEOS)

https://www.rt.com/news/563897-uk-energy-price-protest/

There does not appear to be major participation in these protests.  The comments from "ordinary folk" that appear below the article might bring you some amusement. 
Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: David Pilling on October 02, 2022, 02:09:06 PM
Your link:

"This site can't be reachedwww.rt.com's server IP address could not be found."

Maybe I need to find a proxy server.

Protests... not here, not yet. I have heard talk (on the BBC etc) of people not paying their bills. It is easy to take action against individuals but not against many thousands. In addition people's utilities are not disconnected lightly these days.

The context is the "poll tax", which was a tax Mrs. Thatcher introduced and after protests led to her downfall. A lot of people would not pay it. It was a tax per per person (head hence poll) to raise money for local government.

Seemed fair to me. I was surprised at some of the people who would not pay.

There is unhappiness - the energy price crisis is portrayed as being caused by big business and profiting big business. Huge amounts of money are being transferred from the people who pay the energy bills and now tax payers to the shareholders of companies. Some will be going back to the government, those companies pay lots of tax.

AFAIK No one has said we won't pay because the money is funding Putin's war.



Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: Bern on October 02, 2022, 05:17:41 PM
Russia Today, Pravda, and the Kremlin websites were all removed here shortly after the Ukraine war started.  I visited them to see what the Russians were saying about the war, but either Uncle Sam or the ISPs had censored them.  Is His Majesty's Government doing the same thing in the UK?  I wonder if the EU is blocking them?

Here's the URL for Pravda.

https://english.pravda.ru/

Here's the site at the Kremlin for the President of Russia.

http://en.kremlin.ru/

It's too bad you couldn't get RT.  The comments made me think that people were paid to write them - I think they're called trolls in internet lingo.

The week ahead will be interesting with the Ukraine war, sanctions, energy crisis, inflation, currency issues, and stock market meltdown all teed up for us to experience. 

I'll be bringing many of my plants inside for the winter this week as it is unusually cold and very wet for this time of the year.  I've enjoyed another good growing season.
Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: David Pilling on October 03, 2022, 03:42:30 AM
Hi Bern - Pravda and the Kremlin are no problem to access. RT still is, but I can read it via a proxy in the Netherlands.

It is a bit disappointing if it is being blocked. It is not clear to me who has the power to block things on the internet in the UK - can always be the local name server is at fault, does happen.

The RT TV service had its licence taken away at the start of the war. Maybe that would cause some internet providers to block look up of the ip address.

It appears name to ip address lookup fails for RT. A bit like on satellite, where RT has gone from the programme guide but the signal is still there and probably you can watch it like any other satellite service which is not listed. I expect if I found the ip address via some other route I would be able to access the RT website.

Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: Martin Bohnet on October 03, 2022, 05:23:12 AM
As for protests, in Germany it's mostly the East - no surprise here, as that's were the right wing populists are the strongest. The current panic here is that "people are not willing to save gas" - some clever analyst compared 2021 September gas use to this years, completely ignoring that second half of  September 2022 was severely colder than average - about 5 Kelvin below average, to be precise - no wonder poeple start heating early.
Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: David Pilling on October 03, 2022, 07:48:53 AM
Given mismatch of supply and demand seems to be the trouble, reducing usage is a good idea. Whilst we've seen pictures of attempts to reduce usage in the EU, here there has been no effort at all. The people who appear on TV and make critical comments have laughed at the idea.

Boris Johnson's trouble was that he could not bring himself to go the full Oliver Cromwell and cancel Christmas (because Covid). Liz Truss does not want to give a sniff of the lights going out, so we sail on lights blazing... (like the Titanic).

It would be interesting to know if the price rises have translated into less use.

Reading Russia today, it lacks the Tokyo Rose/William Joyce thing, tell us something (bad) we don't know. The BBC brings us bad enough news everyday. Today we were treated to a fireman telling us not to use barbecues indoors (if you've turned off your gas boiler). And... news a gas shortage would lead to electricity generators being turned off.

Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: David Pilling on October 03, 2022, 05:16:01 PM
Quote from: Bern on October 02, 2022, 05:17:41 PMIs His Majesty's Government doing the same thing in the UK? 

Seemingly they are, there is legislation:

 "(2) A person who provides an internet access service must take reasonable steps to prevent a user of the service in the United Kingdom from accessing, by means of that service, an internet service provided by a designated person."

I didn't know that. (https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2022/477/made)

Finding the ip address is not enough.
Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: Bern on October 04, 2022, 02:08:12 PM
The congressional elections in the USA are upcoming and will happen on November 8th. However, here in Old Dominion and hotbed of rebellion against the Crown, early voting is allowed.  So, today I dodged the raindrops to cast my vote. The polling location was not crowded; it was staffed by enthusiastic and competent volunteers; I was in and out in ten minutes. For years I've been voting for the lesser of two evils, but I've finally awakened to the fact that this approach is not working well.  So, today I cast my vote with a write-in candidate.  I choose my neighbor.  She is intelligent, honest, trustworthy, diligent, thrifty, competent, compassionate, kind, witty, charming, and so on.......  All of these fine qualities make her totally unelectable under the current state of affairs. Nevertheless, that is exactly what I did. Sometimes you have to take a stand, even when the tide is manifestly against you.
Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: David Pilling on October 05, 2022, 04:53:23 AM
Bern - a bit like an ideal democratic system where no one who wants to be a politician is allowed to be, and the people who run the show are picked at random or by popular acclamation. Here they are tallied as "spoilt ballots", so I don't know the details, do write in candidates have to stand.

It might be a blow when a parliamentary official in fancy dress appears at the door, "bad news Sir", "everything that goes wrong in the UK for the next five years is going to be your fault".

Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: Bern on October 05, 2022, 05:46:45 AM
I've never heard of a write-in candidate winning an election in the US.  I'm fairly sure my neighbor will get only one vote.  I'm not even going to tell her what I did so as not to unsettle her.  I'm sure she would have anxiety about a parliamentary or other official showing up at her door asking her questions about her political intentions.  There was a genuine independent candidate on the ballot and I considered voting for him.  However, after reading his bio, I deemed that he could be just as unsuitable as the two candidates from the established parties.  I considered voting for a cartoon character like Minny Mouse or Elmer Fudd, but I wanted to be more serious about the situation and to vote for a real, living person.  In this way the ballot will be counted and it will not be discarded as "spoilt."  Write-in candidates are allowed and there is a place on the ballot specifically for them.

It's interesting that you were able to find a reference to actual legislation allowing (mandating?) the censorship of internet sites.  I'm sure there is similar legislation in the US.  Then there is the voluntary censorship of content if it is deemed inappropriate according to corporate policy.  So what may seem to be a case of mild free speech can be censored as extreme or hurtful, etc. according to corporate standards.  And when all else fails, it now appears that there are secret laws as well as secret courts with secret rulings and mandates, at least as I understand some of the Edward Snowden revelations, that can force compliance if necessary.  Are you aware of similar secret laws and courts in the UK? What about in the EU?

Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: David Pilling on October 05, 2022, 07:44:39 AM
The legislation contained a range of things aimed at the Russian regime when the war started. Russia Today had its licence to broadcast taken away. Chelsea football club owned by Roman Abramovich had various sanctions placed on it.

I've used the 'net since 1992, I've always thought that civilisation would come to the wild west, but I was dismayed to find the ip address of RT blocked. No doubt experts know what is blocked. I am also not happy when I find a note at the bottom of a Google search saying that results have been removed to comply with EU data protection law. Or with the US based websites that block access to comply with GDPR.

There are in the UK "super injunctions", legal protection that wealthy people can obtain to prevent information about them being reported - what makes them 'super' is that reporting of the injunction is also banned.

UK Media have a list of things they won't report - for public well being reasons (kidnappings, copycat crimes). There is a system of D notices the government can use to stop reporting. In addition the UK is part of an intelligence sharing alliance with the USA.

There has been a recent coroner's court case (Molly Russel) an outcome of which may be much tighter control over online content. We find that large companies like Apple are happy to block the PBS list. You'd think they'd get a person to look at the content, it would be marked as "harmless" and that would be the end of it. Instead someone gets rewarded by how many emails a computer blocks.

If in future one has to buy certification to publish on the web (think of the jobs created, economic growth, and harm prevented) or to get on Google, I would not be at all surprised.

YouTube appear to have closed down debate over Covid. Some of the stuff was insane (vaccination makes you magnetic) but good stuff has gone with the bad.

Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: Bern on October 06, 2022, 09:37:37 AM
"Germany Needs To Slash Natural Gas Consumption To Avoid A Winter Emergency"

Here's a headline that sure to grab your attention.  It's from a website called oilprice.com.  It's your go to source for non-green energy news and commentary.  Here's the link.

https://oilprice.com/Energy/Energy-General/Germany-Needs-To-Slash-Natural-Gas-Consumption-To-Avoid-A-Winter-Emergency.html

I've been watching the gyrations this week for the US 10 year treasury yield as well as the US stock market. When the UK government recently did an about face on their tax cut for higher income households, the US 10 year yield plummeted and the US stock market skyrocketed.  Meaning, of course, that inflation has subsided and the FED, BOE, and the ECB can go back to buying bonds and monetizing the debt.  That is, until yesterday when OPEC announced a cut in oil production.  Oops, inflation is now back and the central banks can't monetize the debt just yet. Today, predictably, the US 10 year yield is rising and the US stock market is falling.  Oil and natural gas prices are rising and the prices can be seen on the dashboard on the main page of oilprice.com.  Anyway, this site might be decent source of energy related information this Autumn and Winter.  It's too early to tell, of course, but it might be a tad better than the MSM.  Time will tell. Finally, today the FED publishes their weekly graph on the average 30 year fixed mortgage rates for US housing loans.  I'm sure it will be another up week. 
Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: CG100 on October 06, 2022, 09:50:10 AM
In the UK, utility bills are now sort of fixed - but everyone will be paying for the subsidy for as long as it takes, assuming world fuel prices drop at some stage (although the crude oil cartel agreed to reduce production - aka increase prices - yesterday).
The only utility that is not easy to be cut off from in the UK is mains water, as it is a big deal in public health. gas or electicity can be cut but that leaves a huge bill or bankruptcy waiting...................

As for heating the plants - I am not heating the greenhouse this year - I have constructed large bubble-wrap "cloches" over the benches and I am only heating those, not the entire greenhouse.
Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: David Pilling on October 06, 2022, 01:44:32 PM
14% of users in the UK are on prepayment meters. Of the rest some can't be cut off in Winter, old age pensioners, people with children, chronic conditions.

Reading the article about Germany Bern linked, does Putin think that General Winter will save Russia again. Napoleon, a previous victim was a violet fancier.

"Norway expects to earn record $131 bln from oil and gas in 2023"
Trending on Google today "Are Scottish people Norwegian?"

Joe Biden is mad with the Saudis for backing Russia...

Fed up with all this off topic stuff? I've turned on an option that lets you ignore boards of your choosing. If you go to your user name (top left), click on the down arrow, then "Ignore boards" is an option.
Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: Bern on October 07, 2022, 04:50:34 PM
CG100 wrote on October 6th:

"As for heating the plants - I am not heating the greenhouse this year - I have constructed large bubble-wrap "cloches" over the benches and I am only heating those, not the entire greenhouse."

This is an excellent idea of a way to save expenses on utilities while keeping your plants healthy and alive in your greenhouse this winter.  How do you heat the area under the bubble wrap and control the temperature?  Do you use a large seedling heat mat with a thermostat and heat probe?  Do you have a small radiant heater(s)?  Do you use LED or fluorescent grow lights during the winter as well?  Do you ever have trouble with excess humidity inside these enclosures during the winter?

Do you have photos of your bubble-wrap enclosures that you would like to upload and share?  I'd be interested in seeing them.

I've been thinking of setting up a bench in my garage for some winter growing South African bulbs.  I'd have to use grow lights and a bench sized seedling heat mat for sure, but it had never occurred to me to enclose the entire bench with bubble wrap or a thick plastic wrap. I'm interested in hearing about your experience with humidity inside the enclosures during the winter.  Perhaps a warm, well lit, and more humid enclosure in my garage might be suitable for some of my more temperate and even tropical plants that I could keep growing during the winter instead of an enforced dormancy inside the house. 

Thanks for responding.  Great idea!
Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: CG100 on October 09, 2022, 01:08:02 AM
Hi Bern
You have asked an awful lot   ;)

My benches all have solid (as opposed to slatted) tops to them, so the base of the cloche is effectively sealed. As the plants are very largely dry habitat species, they are watered rather little - anything that needs more moisture is bagged, though not neccessarily sealed. I have used the system previously when I had a large Sansevieria collection and had no problems with moisture/RH.

The frame of the cloche is made from what is known as roofing batten in the UK - timber around 30mm x 25mm - there are different sizes. The height is fixed by the height between bench-top and the eaves of the greenhouse - so around 60cm. Bubble-wrap is just stapled to that.

Heating - I have always used domestic fan heaters - the common, cheap, simple, ones in the UK have two settings - 1kW and 2kW (I have used more than one in any greenhouse, always set at 1kW, to get better and more even temperature control). In anything but a huge cloche, even 1kW may be too much in most weather here. Years ago, I actually built a simple lower power fan heater.....................

The home-made is a length of galvanised pipe with a mains V computer/electronics-cooling fan attached at one end. The heaters are industrial cartridge heaters and/or ceramic heaters which are secured to the pipe, through the wall. This uses a very crude capillary thermostat between the fan and the heaters - the strong air-flow speeds up the reaction time (reduces hysteresis). The fan runs all the time, only the heaters are on the capillary thermostat. The fan could/would run literally all the time but the whole fan heater is on a simple central heating thermostat, within the greenhouse, set at around 8-10C (a couple of degrees higher than the heater capilaary thermostat).

In a cloche in particular, air/temperature distribution is difficult, so I always butt a plastic pipe against the intake (rain-water down pipe or whatever), so the fan drags air mostly form one end of the cloche, and pushes it out at the other. No need for any join as such, just put the pipe end against the fan, (When heating a greenhouse, the cheap fan heaters have an intake on the top, so I fitted a "chimney" over the intake grill so that air was mostly drawn from near the roof.)

Thermostats - I built electronic thermostats around 20 years ago - in an 8 x 12 foot greenhouse, two, 1kW fan heaters one at each end, with temperatures 5-10C different inside-outside, a glass thermometer showed almost no change as the heat switched on and off.
I will see how the capillary etc. works first.......................... I can always easily cahnge to the electronic control.

From what little I have seen of commercial electronics.............................. they leave much to be desired.

Lighting. I do not need extra lighting in the greenhouse, but did grow LOTS of seedlings in the past, using ONLY artificial lighting. Back then it was SON/HPS/Lucalox (all the same lamp), plus a high CCT (high blue) fluorescent strip. Today, anyone would use LEDs.

I am no fan of heater mats unless they are buried under a few inches of sand or the pots are on a mesh shelf /support half an inch or more above them. The temperature produced differs massively between under and between pots and is VERY difficult to control adequately. Buried in sand, it would be a major achievement to get even temperature distribution. I see lots of problems and no advantages over heating the air in some way.

If you can't find things that I mention, or it isn't clear, let me know and I will try to explain better, or post links to any products.
Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: CG100 on October 09, 2022, 01:52:38 AM
Some typical components -

see below
Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: CG100 on October 09, 2022, 02:04:20 AM
Fan heater (https://www.amazon.co.uk/Flat-Fan-Heater-3000-Watts/dp/B07YLPJGXC/ref=sxin_17_ac_d_rm?ac_md=1-1-ZmFuIGhlYXRlciAzMDAwdw%3D%3D-ac_d_rm_rm_rm&content-id=amzn1.sym.eae3237b-3bc2-4b6f-9b26-f3c2840ee3a5%3Aamzn1.sym.eae3237b-3bc2-4b6f-9b26-f3c2840ee3a5&crid=38OI9T8333C65&cv_ct_cx=fan+heater&keywords=fan+heater&pd_rd_i=B07YLPJGXC&pd_rd_r=db06e1a3-d8b8-44f8-af2a-55ff3579610f&pd_rd_w=ryPGs&pd_rd_wg=9zJGp&pf_rd_p=eae3237b-3bc2-4b6f-9b26-f3c2840ee3a5&pf_rd_r=HDEXKYDFC8TB7WVTCDKP&psc=1&qid=1665305517&qu=eyJxc2MiOiI2LjU3IiwicXNhIjoiNS40MSIsInFzcCI6IjUuMDgifQ%3D%3D&sprefix=fan+heater%2Caps%2C88&sr=1-2-e2b79f78-a3a0-4cac-b70d-2a5e4ae8e724)

Capillary thermostat (https://www.amazon.co.uk/RESHUBO-Temperature-Control-Capillary-Thermostat/dp/B0B9RLLW2Y/ref=sr_1_2_sspa?crid=24ZWE78WI9Q18&keywords=capillary+thermostat&qid=1665304863&qu=eyJxc2MiOiI0LjQ3IiwicXNhIjoiNC4wNCIsInFzcCI6IjMuMDMifQ%3D%3D&sprefix=capillary+%2Caps%2C589&sr=8-2-spons&psc=1&spLa=ZW5jcnlwdGVkUXVhbGlmaWVyPUEyMlVRSldSMVQ1ODdYJmVuY3J5cHRlZElkPUExMDI4MzMxMUdBTkI4RUQ1V1JLRyZlbmNyeXB0ZWRBZElkPUEwMTQzMjUyMjMyTzBQSTVZVDhZOCZ3aWRnZXROYW1lPXNwX2F0ZiZhY3Rpb249Y2xpY2tSZWRpcmVjdCZkb05vdExvZ0NsaWNrPXRydWU=)

Cartridge heater (https://www.amazon.co.uk/Customizable-Cartridge-MAXIWATT%C2%AE-CUSTOMIZE-DIAMETER/dp/B087CY7CSV/ref=sr_1_1_sspa?crid=14VVB3GMTJSN9&keywords=cartridge+heater&qid=1665304918&qu=eyJxc2MiOiIzLjQ3IiwicXNhIjoiMi45NSIsInFzcCI6IjIuMzIifQ%3D%3D&sprefix=cartridge+heater%2Caps%2C81&sr=8-1-spons&psc=1&spLa=ZW5jcnlwdGVkUXVhbGlmaWVyPUExMVdSUUw2QVZYMEowJmVuY3J5cHRlZElkPUEwMzg1Njk4Mk5VRFJNRUZZRlJYWiZlbmNyeXB0ZWRBZElkPUEwODk2MzYzMlE2OENDR0taVzU3SCZ3aWRnZXROYW1lPXNwX2F0ZiZhY3Rpb249Y2xpY2tSZWRpcmVjdCZkb05vdExvZ0NsaWNrPXRydWU=)

Ceramic heater (https://www.ihps.co.in/ceramic-infrared-heater.html)
Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: David Pilling on October 09, 2022, 04:07:01 AM
Quote from: CG100 on October 09, 2022, 01:08:02 AMIn a cloche in particular, air/temperature distribution is difficult

I bow to your expertise, thanks for writing all that down.

It has always fascinated me how my greenhouse is (too) hot at the top in daytime and (too) cold at the top at night.

I never got around to setting up a solar powered fan to shift air from top to bottom.

Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: CG100 on October 09, 2022, 04:26:07 AM
Quote
QuoteQuote from: CG100 on 09/10/2022, 09:08:02In a cloche in particular, air/temperature distribution is difficult
I bow to your expertise, thanks for writing all that down. It has always fascinated me how my greenhouse is (too) hot at the top in daytime and (too) cold at the top at night.I never got around to setting up a solar powered fan to shift air from top to bottom.

Presumably you do not have the convenience of mains electricity in the greenhouse?

I have had a heated greenhouse for something like 30 years and never considered anything but electricity, and fan heaters, from day 1 and have laid underground SWA cables to do that. Far too easy, clean, near maintenance-free and easily controlled to go any other way, for me anyway. But then, half a lifetime ago, I spent several years working in industrial air-conditioning/ventilation........
Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: Bern on October 09, 2022, 06:14:43 AM
Many thanks to CG100 and his generously detailed response to heating the bench in his greenhouse as opposed to heating the entire greenhouse.  This is the first comprehensive response to my original post about heating greenhouses during a time of potential energy scarcity.  I will probably copy CG100's write-up and send it along to the President of the International Euphorbia Society who expressed concerns in his letter in the April 2022 journal of the IES about energy costs and heating greenhouses.

So many kudos and thanks to CG100.  Good going and good luck with your project and your plants! :) :) :)
Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: CG100 on October 09, 2022, 06:54:48 AM
You are very generous Bern.

I should say that the idea is no more than an extension to what people called a "hot box" when I was active in the cacti and succulent hobby - an isolated area to keep spp. such as Melocactus, Discocactus etc..

The other advantage is that on especially cold nights, maybe even every night, is that it is VERY easy to throw extra bubblewrap over a cloche (and to remove it when not needed) - not so to add multiple layers of insulation to an entire greenhouse.

Major limitation - plant size.
Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: David Pilling on October 09, 2022, 03:24:04 PM
Quote from: CG100 on October 09, 2022, 04:26:07 AMPresumably you do not have the convenience of mains electricity in the greenhouse?

Correct. I have no mains electricity or gas. For my plants all that matters is temps staying above 0 degrees C. I live very close to the sea. It rarely goes below 0 C outside, I can keep my greenhouse warm enough with a small paraffin lamp - in the last few years I've burned it only a handful of times, and could have not bothered (forecast says frost, but frost does not arrive).

Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: Bern on October 12, 2022, 01:36:56 PM
I've been in touch with my contact at the International Euphorbia Society in the Netherlands.  Here's a snippet from his email to me. I've added a few corrections to help out Google Translator.

"Yes, heating costs are keeping us busy. I isolated (insulated) my greenhouse last week. I hope it will work and safe (save) the usage of gas. The other week I spoke to an elder couple with three greenhouse. They used 9000 m3 gas last year. This costs now about € 30.000 a year. I am not sure what they will do this winter."

So, now there is another idea about how to save energy for your greenhouse this winter.  It is possible to insulate your entire greenhouse, perhaps with bubble wrap along the walls and the roof.  I remember seeing photos of a greenhouse where someone had done this many years ago.  It was the interior of the greenhouse that was lined with bubble wrap, not the exterior. 

And the other solution was by CG 100 who is making a cloche inside his greenhouse.  Effectively, he's making a smaller greenhouse within his larger greenhouse.

It's good to see that people are using their creativity and ingenuity to find ways to keep their plant collections snug and warm through the coming winter.

Good luck to the couple with three greenhouses.  I wonder what the price of 9000 m3 of natural gas cost last year in the Netherlands?  30K Euros this year would be a a lot of money for heating. 



Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: David Pilling on October 12, 2022, 05:01:35 PM
9,000 m3 of gas... that's about 6 times what I used to heat my house and cook last year.

To get from cubic metres to Kilo Watt hours, there is a formula:

(volume) × 1.02264 × 39.9 ÷ 3.6

9,000 m3 is 102,000 KWH.

Call it £0.10 per KWH and it comes to £10,000 (latest UK prices).
Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: CG100 on October 13, 2022, 09:30:16 AM
I am unsure how many people in the UK use gas, mains or bottled, to heat domestic greenhouses, but I suspect that the number is rather small.
I was suspicious at a simple comparison, as burning any fuel is not/ cannot be 100% efficient, which electrical heating is, but was surprised that domestic gas and liquid fuel burners are from 80-95% efficient. I could not find a figure for horticultural heating of any size at all, not even for commercial greenhouses.

So far as insulation is concerned, there must be few people indeed within the UK who do not fully line their heated greenhouses with bubblewrap, even going back 20 years or so.

I have not searched for it, but maybe 40-50 years ago, Kew did a very extensive study on greenhouse heating and all associated with it across the whole UK, comparing different locations, types of greenhouse construction and much besides. It was extremely detailed and comprehensive and provided some simple maths to calculate an average energy usage for anyone's greenhouse.
Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: David Pilling on October 20, 2022, 03:17:15 AM
"Greenhouse gas: how soaring energy bills are squeezing Dutch fruit-growers
Rising prices have forced many greenhouse owners to stop production or skip a season"

https://www.thenationalnews.com/weekend/2022/10/07/greenhouse-gas-how-soaring-energy-bills-are-squeezing-dutch-fruit-growers/

The gas crisis becomes a food crisis...
Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: CG100 on October 20, 2022, 06:34:59 AM
Quote from: David Pilling on October 20, 2022, 03:17:15 AMThe gas crisis becomes a food crisis...


It has been for a long while this year - NL banned export of cucumbers a few months back and there was recently an early morning report on the farming programme that large parts of the Lea valley horticultural area have been sold off for housing development as a consequence of growing becoming uneconomic.
Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: Martin Bohnet on October 20, 2022, 08:50:16 AM
Quote from: CG100 on October 13, 2022, 09:30:16 AMI was suspicious at a simple comparison, as burning any fuel is not/ cannot be 100% efficient, which electrical heating is, but was surprised that domestic gas and liquid fuel burners are from 80-95% efficient. I could not find a figure for horticultural heating of any size at all, not even for commercial greenhouses.


Actually, Methane gas heatings may have up to theoretically 111% efficiency - which is of course a mathematical trick (or a clever choosing of boundary conditions as we engineers say) calculating in the condensation enthalpy of the water formed in the reaction. In the greenhouse I'm not sure if condensate would be part of the solution or part of the problem, though...
Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: CG100 on October 20, 2022, 09:04:06 AM
Quote from: Martin Bohnet on October 20, 2022, 08:50:16 AMActually, Methane gas heatings may have up to theoretically 111% efficiency

That would asume no chimney/flue gases.
Nothing legal would be allowed to be unvented - some heat will always be lost up the flue and combustion requires introduction of new air (oxygen), even if supplied direct to the burner rather from the greenhouse itself.

I suppose you could get close to a real 100% by running the flue pipe around any greenhouse, or even use an intercooler - flue/supply gas heat-exchanger - so that the gas that eventually exited was very close to greenhouse temperature, or even below, but the extended flue would probably have major problems with condensation/corrosion and any inter-cooler would have to be (very) large. None of it an engineering dream when it would all have to rely on convection and/or chimney/pitot effect.
Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: David Pilling on October 21, 2022, 03:37:51 AM
Quote from: CG100 on October 20, 2022, 06:34:59 AMNL banned export of cucumbers a few months back

Five and twenty ponies,
Trotting through the dark –
Broccoli for the Parson, cucumber for the Clerk.
Legumes for a lady; lettuce for a spy,
Watch the wall my darling while the Gentlemen go by!

Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: Bern on October 22, 2022, 10:03:43 AM
I read a book several years ago titled: "The Long Emergency."  It dealt with subjects like peak oil and other future shock type events that will confront humanity in the near future. The author has also used the term techo-narcissism to describe the responses he got while giving talks on his book at corporations in Silicon Valley.  There's an energy crisis?  No problem.  We'll use technology to fix it - some kind of IT or AI.  A farcical example of techno-narcissism would be that you could download the Greenhouse Heating App from Google Play to your cellphone, and when you activate it, voila! - your greenhouse heating issues are resolved.

I'm not recommending the book, but I do commend the phrase "The Long Emergency."  All of us now are living during it.

I wonder if shortly there will be an App to increase the cucumber supply from the NL?
Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: David Pilling on October 22, 2022, 05:34:00 PM
I always liked the line that the stone age did not end when they ran out of stone. A lot of oil/gas/coal is going to be left in the ground.

But the idea that times are going to be more difficult - the long emergency - everyone can agree with. For example after 40 years inflation is back. After 10 years interest rates have gone up. It's all happened before but a lot of people have not experienced it.

Reversion to the mean if you like.

Computers can help with many things, but they can't lay bricks.

There are a lot of real world problems much more difficult to solve than the ones that made  fortunes in the era of dot-com.
Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: Martin Bohnet on October 23, 2022, 12:20:09 AM
Trouble is a lot of fossile energies  - and also nuclear power - are still very convenient and cheap, because you don't pay for all the follow up costs. and funnily, natural and artificial intelligences tend to make the same mistakes - learning  globally wrong behaviour from local short term benefits - my favourite example is the AI that was praised for recognizing horses in pictures - until someone looked at the identification "heat map" and spotted the watermark from the horse farm providing the photos. Likewise, any eating disorder is learned, e.g. by rewarding children with sweets.

And there's  a lot of unconscious learning as well - ever wondered why gold seems to be universally valued in our species? OK, it was an early cultural miracle - a metal which doesn't change over time, but let's face it, the technical value is mediocre to say the least - a few non-corroding contacts, some minor catalytic uses (in which it is usually inferior to platinum, palladium and ruthenium), that's all. Personally I'm convinced: a lot of the gold hype is the result of children's stories about precious gold treasures guarded by trolls, dragons and mad kings. Just another mis-programming we'd better overcome. Could reduce the Mercury poisoning of many rivers as a start. Similar arguments go for Diamonds - technical uses are bigger, but all "cutting edge" diamonds you need can be synthesized, no need for dangerous mining exposing workers to Asbestos etc.

Technical solutions can help, but humanity needs to overcome wrong impulses. Oops, there we are back at the Russia problem.... Imperalism, yay!
Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: David Pilling on October 23, 2022, 04:30:37 AM
Quote from: Martin Bohnet on October 23, 2022, 12:20:09 AMhumanity needs to overcome wrong impulses


"In the long run we are all dead. Economists set themselves too easy, too useless a task if in tempestuous seasons they can only tell us that when the storm is past the ocean is flat again."

Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: Bern on October 28, 2022, 05:51:02 PM
[In the most recent journal of The Austrian (Vol. 8, No. 5), a publication of the Mises Institute, author Alex Epstein was interviewed about his book: Fossil Future - Why Global Human Flourishing Requires More Oil, Coal, and Natural Gas - Not Less.  There were some very interesting quotes in this article and another one in the same journal.  Here are just a few.  Bern.]

"Since 1980, the percentage of humanity living on less than $2 a day has gone from 42 percent to under 10 percent today.  This wondrous development is the result of increasing and expanding productivity, which is driven by the increasing and expanding use of fossil-fueled machine labor and the enormous amount of mental labor it frees up.  But there is still far more progress to me had.....  Expanding fossil fuel use will enable everyone, especially the world's poorest people, to become more productive and prosperous. AE."

[The World Population Clock is currently reading 7.98 billion people. So, something on the order of 800 million people are living on the purchasing parity equivalent of $2 a day or less.  This is an appalling statistic IMO. Bern.]

"By our standards, the world is extremely poor, including energy poor, and one point I make in the book is that there are 6 billion people in the world who by our standards use a totally inadequate amount of energy, less electricity than one of our refrigerators use.  We live in a world that is energy deprived, and then you learn that fossil fuels provide 80 percent of that energy and their use is still growing, particularly in parts of the world that care most about low cost reliable energy.  It is insane to talk about phasing them out rapidly. AE."

"There are something like 3 billion people on Earth that don't consume energy.  Aren't we being neocolonialists in the West if we try to thrust our anti-fossil fuel mentality on them? JD."

[Good points all of them.  Reading statements such as these helps me gain some perspective on the current energy situation people face in America and Europe this winter. Bern.]

"William Nordhaus, who won the Nobel Prize for his work on the economics of climate change, is arguable the top economist in this area.  His own model shows the 1.5 degree Centigrade cap on global warming would be so economically destructive it would be better if governments did nothing. RM.]

[Hmmm....... Comments anyone? Bern.]

Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: David Pilling on October 29, 2022, 03:46:40 AM
Hi Bern - interesting points and ones we don't hear often.

I imagine the conventional reply is that the poor will suffer most from changing climate, that the well off can afford to move to net zero and will then be able to make the technology cheaper. Maybe it is fair that the wealthy use less energy.

This week's British Prime Minister is getting criticised for not going to COP27, the implication being that his presence would make a difference. In fact not only is the UK's energy use insignificant, the future use of fossil fuels is beyond the control of the West. China and Russia will do what they want, including exporting to poorer countries, which will welcome cheap energy.

On a brighter note, half the UK's electricity came from renewable power sources yesterday, and seemingly much more is on the way.

(a somewhat warm and windy day).

We have protests here... people gluing themselves to things, chucking soup in art galleries. Some of these protesters have been revealed to not be following their own advice. It doesn't matter, if you protest you're saving humanity regardless of living in a house with no insulation etc. If the protests are just anti-growth, anti-wealth remains to be seen.

The point being there is hardship developing due to the costs of fuel - any link between net-zero and this is studiously avoided by the media. The general population is overwhelmingly in favor of net-zero. They're also in favor of someone else paying their energy bills.

We can tax the oil companies to pay the bills - except taxing Mr Putin may be problematic.

Coming soon, putting the oil companies out of business, which would leave poorer countries doing their own thing, again out of control of the rich.

Europe seems further down the net-zero road than the USA, which may be why we're paying such high prices and fearing Winter. Mr Biden is at COP27. What happens today over here, happens tomorrow over there.

Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: CG100 on October 29, 2022, 09:08:02 AM

"There are something like 3 billion people on Earth that don't consume energy. 


No-one in this world consumes no energy.
Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: David Pilling on October 29, 2022, 10:27:14 AM
Our World in Data offers:

"About 3 billion people in the world do not have access to modern energy sources for cooking and heating their homes"

https://ourworldindata.org/energy-poverty-air-pollution

Others offer 940 million without electricity.
Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: CG100 on October 29, 2022, 01:16:27 PM
Where any energy is gained from is totally and utterly irrelevant, and the original quote made no mention of source, just that people did not consume energy.

Vast numbers of people across Africa and Asia cook using charcoal - better than using methane or propane, or even electricity? If the electricity was generated from solar, wind, wave, nuclear......................

How many people use no steel in their lives? How many people use no industrially-produced anything? Essentially none. It matters not that they personally did not make the steel or whatever - they are consuming energy second-hand.

Taking pedantry to the extreme, how many people eat/consume/utilise only what they or someone else produces within walking distance, with no industrial inputs and using only home-produced seed etc.? Unless they barter, even the money involved will have taken large amounts of energy to produce.
Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: Bern on October 30, 2022, 01:11:35 PM
Good points all.  The Long Emergency continues. 

I'm reminded of a quote from the late social critic and comedian George Carlin.  " When you're born you get a ticket to the freak show. When you're born in America, you get a front row seat." He became very pessimistic as he got older and he became something of a misanthrope.  But it is a cute quote.  I wonder what he would say about COP27 and the protests in the UK.  And there's plenty of front row seats in other countries now.

During an earlier energy crisis when Uncle Sam reduced the highway speed limits to 55mph to save gasoline,  the country singer Willie Nelson had a bumper sticker that read: "Willie says it's all jive, drive 85."

There will be a big fight over going to net-zero in the USA.  It will be very ugly.
Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: CG100 on October 30, 2022, 02:02:27 PM
Quote from: Bern on October 30, 2022, 01:11:35 PMThere will be a big fight over going to net-zero in the USA.  It will be very ugly.

Amen

The biggest over-simplification and understatement that I have ever seen/read? Quite probably.
Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: David Pilling on October 30, 2022, 03:00:16 PM
I hear the USA only has 25 days diesel left, so not net-zero, just zero.

"
And ask yourself 'What would Willie do?'
He stands up for what is right and he cares about the world
He ran a tour bus on vegetable oil
He understood that everything revolves around a farmer
And maybe that's why he grows his own marijuana
And yeah he can be reckless, he's spent a lot of cash
Don't even mention the IRS
"
Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: Bern on October 30, 2022, 04:13:30 PM
Quote from: CG100 on October 30, 2022, 02:02:27 PMAmen

The biggest over-simplification and understatement that I have ever seen/read? Quite probably.

Understatement and irony my specialties.....   Sarcasm not so much.

Zero diesel fuel in 25 days?  There will be a major hiccup in the Long Emergency on this side of the pond. 


Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: Bern on November 06, 2022, 09:15:27 AM
This week the biennial spectacle of the US congressional elections will occur on Tuesday.  Will the Outs become the Ins?  Will the Ins become the Outs?  Most importantly.......  Will it matter?  There is some serious inflation going on here and the powers that be are way behind in getting it under control IMO.
Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: David Pilling on November 06, 2022, 10:25:16 AM
Bern - the world is watching... Coming soon the realisation that central banks cannot and will not take strong enough action to restrain inflation. Some people benefit from inflation - it is often a transfer of wealth from old to young. An era of financial repression beckons.

The funny thing is how the central bankers don't admit to what they're doing.

Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: CG100 on November 06, 2022, 11:28:45 AM
Although a very few pundits have realised and spoken already, maybe politicians and people in general will actually engage brain and realise that the current round of world-wide infaltion is unique - driven by Russia/Ukraine, which has driven energy (and carbohydrate) prices high on the world market, and thereby driven prices skyward on virtually everything.

Add that to the total chaos already pre-existing caused by C19.................

The total numpties can faff as much as they like with interest rates...................... it alone will not bring energy (or carbohydrate) prices down, if at all.
Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: Bern on November 06, 2022, 06:44:58 PM
A neighbor of mine down the street who rented an apartment just had to move because the landlord raised the rent too high for her. She had been an ideal tenant and had been there for years. The landlord had done nothing to improve the property so there was no "cost push" inflation on that end. The vaunted customer loyalty was completely AWOL.  It was a simple case of greed IMO.  She had to move about 50 miles away to find a more reasonable price. Prior to her move, she downsized her automobile to have a lower monthly payment and better gas mileage. She told me that one of her neighbors had to move for same reason.

Another neighbor of mine owns a classic Toyota Land Cruiser with a diesel engine.  Oops!  Diesel here is now $5.28 a gallon.  So, he's now driving his wife's Hyundai most of the time and has idled his Land Cruiser. 

The price of prepackaged salad greens is up 30% at the grocery store in the last few weeks.  Really? 

Meanwhile, tomorrow's Powerball Jackpot Lottery is estimated at $1.9 Billion!  You can't make this stuff up.  And yes, I have a ticket.
Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: David Pilling on November 07, 2022, 03:19:30 AM
Quote from: Bern on November 06, 2022, 06:44:58 PMMeanwhile, tomorrow's Powerball Jackpot Lottery is estimated at $1.9 Billion!  You can't make this stuff up.  And yes, I have a ticket.

Good luck...

EU/UK inflation is higher than the USA, depends if you believe the official figures and which figure is used.

Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: Martin Bohnet on November 07, 2022, 03:25:37 AM
oh, you know what they say: "Lottery is the penalty tax for a lack of mathematical understanding"

Another fun fact: Had transportation been taxed properly to compensate damage done by the emissions before, we had no price shock right now, and had likely consumed far less fossile fuels anyway. Cheap energy is the mother of wrong incentives.
Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: David Pilling on November 07, 2022, 04:54:21 AM
Yeah but, there is the argument that whilst on average you will lose money playing the lottery the consequences of winning a great deal of money mean it is worth a punt.

A bit like home insurance in reverse.

On average your house will not burn down.

Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: CG100 on November 07, 2022, 05:06:30 AM
Quote from: David Pilling on November 07, 2022, 04:54:21 AM................on average you will lose money playing the lottery................

I am unsure/unconvinced that the word "average" has any logical/valid meaning in this context.

The odds will obviously vary, but I do not think "average" represents a reasonable approximation of >>>>>99% chance of loosing.  :-)
Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: David Pilling on November 07, 2022, 06:00:48 AM
Carl, for the UK National Lottery, year ending March 2022

"From total ticket sales of £8,090.7 million in the year ending 31 March 2022:
£4,612.3 million was paid to players in prizes"


An average return of 50%.

It may be an Abba lottery "the winner takes it all", or as with the UK, there are lesser prizes and the chances of you making the average return are high.

Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: David Pilling on November 07, 2022, 06:04:15 AM
Quote from: CG100 on November 06, 2022, 11:28:45 AMenergy (and carbohydrate) prices high on the world market

We have had our chips.

 :)
Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: CG100 on November 07, 2022, 06:22:43 AM
Quote from: David Pilling on November 07, 2022, 06:00:48 AMAn average return of 50%.


The average return rate is not linked to average loss rate. If there is an average loss rate it would always be very near to the stake.
Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: Bern on November 07, 2022, 09:52:54 AM
Quote from: David Pilling on November 07, 2022, 04:54:21 AMYeah but, there is the argument that whilst on average you will lose money playing the lottery the consequences of winning a great deal of money mean it is worth a punt.

The odds are definitely against you in these lottery games. But, someone always wins them. And when they get huge like this one, it's worth spending a few dollars on a ticket or two just to have your hand in the game.  Again, somebody always wins.  The key is moderation and having realistic expectations.  To pass up a chance to win a great deal of money for a few bucks is inhuman.  Even Spock would play for a crack at $1.9 billion.  But he probably wouldn't tell anyone - and he's only half human.
Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: janemcgary on November 07, 2022, 03:37:11 PM
Around here, the lottery is known as "the stupidity tax."
Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: Bern on November 08, 2022, 10:40:59 AM
Quote from: janemcgary on November 07, 2022, 03:37:11 PMAround here, the lottery is known as "the stupidity tax."

It was announced today that a person in California who paid the stupidity tax has won the Powerball Lottery jackpot.  If he or she chooses a lump sum payout, it will be approximately $997.6 million.  The odds of winning are 1 in 292.2 million. 

Many of the adults in the USA, most of whom pay taxes, will elect a new Congress today.  Might I be so bold as to ask, facetiously of course, are the odds better better playing the Powerball lottery? 
Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: David Pilling on November 08, 2022, 05:09:35 PM
Quote from: Bern on November 08, 2022, 10:40:59 AMIt was announced today that a person in California who paid the stupidity tax has won the Powerball Lottery jackpot.  If he or she chooses a lump sum payout, it will be approximately $997.6 million.  The odds of winning are 1 in 292.2 million. 

I read the ticket price was $2 - so your return per 1$ stake would be 997/(2*292)=$1.7

Any return over $1 is OK with me.

You'd think Elon Musk would have bought all the tickets.

Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: Bern on November 09, 2022, 11:53:16 AM
Quote from: David Pilling on November 08, 2022, 05:09:35 PMAny return over $1 is OK with me.
The Powerball Lottery of November 7th had a grand prize of $2.040 billion.  After all taxes are paid by the Lottery administration, the payee receives a net amount of $997.6 million if he or she chooses the net amount.  The payee also has the option to receive the full $2.040 billion as an annuity which I think is paid out over 30 years.  In addition, 23 other people in various states won a total of $1 million, having matched five numbers. One ticket had a payout of $2 million.  225 tickets nationwide won a $50,000 prize and another 42 tickets won a $100,000 prize. Then there were numerous smaller payments.  The jackpot is the largest ever and the winner is the first person to become a billionaire by winning a lottery.  Amazing! IMO.
Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: Judy Glattstein on November 09, 2022, 06:34:27 PM
Was it mentioned that the owner of the gas station (if that's what it was) that sold the winning ticket gets a reward of $1 million from the Lottery?
Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: CG100 on November 10, 2022, 12:16:50 AM
Quote from: Bern on November 09, 2022, 11:53:16 AMAmazing! IMO.

Why is gambling amazing? Certainly in the case of the UK lottery, it is redistributing cash (I hesitate to suggest wealth) amongst the poor - it is a tax on the poor as they spend proportinally more on it, and not all stake money is given back as prizes (obviously).

The UK National Lottery has been running for 28 years. Not every winner makes their winnings known, but in that time I have met 2 people who have won more than a few £ - a neighbour won £40,000 and somebody at work won something over £100,000.
Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: Bern on November 10, 2022, 09:48:56 AM
Quote from: Judy Glattstein on November 09, 2022, 06:34:27 PMWas it mentioned that the owner of the gas station (if that's what it was) that sold the winning ticket gets a reward of $1 million from the Lottery?

"Joseph "Papa Joe" Chahayed, 75, has been given $1 million of the $2.04 billion jackpot after he sold the winning ticket at Joes Service Station in Altadena, Calif. Per the lottery's rules, the retailer receives 0.5% of the jackpot, which is capped at $1 million." Fortune.com

Quote from: CG100 on November 10, 2022, 12:16:50 AMWhy is gambling amazing?

It's not that gambling is amazing. It's the sheer size of the winning jackpot that I find amazing. And your point about the poor spending proportionally more on it are spot on.

Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: Martin Bohnet on November 10, 2022, 12:25:29 PM
Actually, I do buy lottery tickets as Christmas presents for people who have it all - but from "Aktion Mensch", of whom I'm quite convinced that they do good things with the money. Their focus is inclusion of disabled persons and they also run a very good campaign showing that not the people are the problem, but places which were not designed mindfully. Until now, the returns were not impressive (maximum was 100€), but I don't feel the money was wasted.
Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: Bern on November 11, 2022, 10:01:35 AM
Today is the Veteran's Day National Holiday in the USA. It is the only US National Holiday that will never be moved to give people a three day weekend, with the exception of July 4th - Independence Day. 

"On the 11th hour of the 11th day of the 11th month, 1918, fighting in WWI officially stopped after Germany signed an armistice agreement with Allies earlier in the day."  Armistice Day in the UK and France. 

Volkstrauertag (German for "people's day of mourning") is a commemoration day in Germany two Sundays before the first day of Advent. It commemorates members of the armed forces of all nations and civilians who died in armed conflicts, to include victims of violent oppression.

Verdun, the Somme, Meuse–Argonne, Passchendaele, the Marne.........  Gernerals Haig, Foch, Pershing, Ludendorff, et al.

John McCrae has the final words.......

In Flanders Fields

"In Flanders fields the poppies blow
Between the crosses, row on row
That mark our place; and in the sky
The larks, still bravely singing, fly
Scarce heard amid the guns below

We are the Dead. Short days ago
We lived, felt dawn saw sunset glow
Loved and were loved, and now we lie
In Flanders fields

Take up our quarrel with the foe;
To you, from falling hands we throw
The torch; be yours to hold it high
If ye break faith with us who die
We shall not sleep, though poppies grow
In Flanders fields."

― John McCrae
Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: Arnold on November 11, 2022, 11:55:31 AM
I like the British way of honoring those who perished in Wars at their soccer games.  Moment of silence and then a bugle salute. Seems like the entire crowd observes the solemn day

Here's a image on my uncle's book  commemorating the surrender on the USS Missouri.  He was a gunners mate  on the ship.
Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: CG100 on November 11, 2022, 01:00:35 PM
Us Brits have two days to remember those killed in all conflicts to keep the rest of us free.

The silence is observed twice in most years - on Armistice Day - at 1100 on 11/11, and 1100 on Remembrance Sunday - usually the nearest Sunday to 11/11.

If you live near a garrison town you may hear a gun (howitzer or whatever) to mark the beginning and end of the silence on Sunday - I vividly remember them as I grew up in Colchester - a major UK garrison town and because my parents both lived through WW2, with my father serving in the army, both having lost friends, comrades and aquaintances, as most people did, not that it was ever mentioned as anything but casual and very brief comment.

Remembrance Sunday (not sure about weekday 11/11) is the only time that you will hear silence intentionally broadcast over UK radio/TV. EVERYTHING, everywhere, used to fall silent on the Sunday in past years, less so now.
Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: Martin Bohnet on November 11, 2022, 11:20:09 PM
Ah a classic date to describe the German schizophrenic nature, since 11:11 AM on November 11th also is the traditional start of Carneval.

And so close to the other German Schizophrenia Day on November 9th...

Sidenote: Most Forums develop such a meandering topic from time to time to host all side discussions, and are often establishing a name for it - I once had a Forum where it was plainly called "GüaM" -Gespräche über alles Mögliche -> Talk about anything possible. That older Forum software got sloppy after about 1000 posts in a topic, so that's when we started a new one - we ended up at GüaM Nr 101 after about 10 years when that forum was active....if we ever decide to put this one aside, I vote for an institutionalized version of it - and we should call it "The heated Greenhouse" :P :P
Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: CG100 on November 12, 2022, 12:28:32 AM
Quote from: Martin Bohnet on November 11, 2022, 11:20:09 PMI vote for an institutionalized version of it - and we should call it "The heated Greenhouse" :P :P


LLLOL
Vote 2 here.
Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: Bern on November 14, 2022, 11:27:05 AM
Quote from: Martin Bohnet on November 11, 2022, 11:20:09 PMI vote for an institutionalized version of it - and we should call it "The heated Greenhouse" :P :P

How about "The Heated Greenhouse, Etc."?
Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: Bern on November 16, 2022, 01:24:24 PM
Are you able to pay your utility bills with crypto currencies?  Can you pay to heat your greenhouse this winter with bitcoin?  I've seen that in the US there are some locations that will allow you to pay for gasoline for your auto with bitcoin. 

The collapse of the crypto exchange FTX Trading Ltd. and the evaporation of $16 billion of Sam Bankman-Fried's net worth happened with extraordinary rapidity.  Is crypto the ultimate in "financial" bubbles?  All of the other financial bubbles had some form of tangible assets to back them up - the stock market bubble, the bond bubble, the housing bubble, etc.  Heck, even the tulip bubble in the 1630s had actual tulip bulbs as assets.  Crypto to me is nothing but bits and bytes in computer memory.  Will the crypto implosion be known as the "nothing" bubble?

It was reported that Sam Bankman-Fried was going to flee to Argentina in his private jet to escape the criminal justice system and the civil lawsuits that will bedevil him now. Presumably, he must have some real assets in Argentina if he plans to live there.  Will he also have to change his name to an alias?  If so, I propose Sam Bankrupt-Fraud......
Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: David Pilling on November 16, 2022, 02:37:16 PM
With a background in maths I have avoided crypto - because if you want to buy numbers I have lots to sell - integers, irrationals, transcendentals, numbers that have never been used before.

Watching football this season there have been adverts for crypto around the pitch, and it seems too sophisticated for a mass audience. I can't remember which crypto company it was - FTX maybe. In 1929 Joe Kennedy said he knew there was going to be trouble when his shoeshine boy gave him stock tips.

I can see that crypto is useful for payments - but as an investment for exponential capital gains I think not. The rapid fluctuations would make one avoid bitcoin for transactions. A huge amount of energy has been burnt generating bitcoins - hope they can do something useful with the numbers they have created.

I liked the line that "Bankman-Fried" was a name Dickens would have given a character. Last I heard he was selling his house in the Bahamas. The person now in charge of FTX was also responsible for clearing up the Enron disaster - name from the past. Financial disasters come and go (Madoff?).

I was interested to hear there are stable-crypto currencies pegged to the dollar etc. sounds more sensible.

You could definitely heat your greenhouse with a bitcoin miner. But unlike paper currency you can't burn them to stay warm.

Seems FTX is not anything to do with crypto, just an old fashioned fraud, except crypto does not have the level of regulation traditional banks have - because of 100s of years of problems with traditional banks.

Rarely I have seen bitcoin as a payment option, but only on exotic websites, not in real life like petrol stations or utilities.

Warren Buffet said crypto was "probably rat poison squared" - better to invest in a railroad.
Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: CG100 on November 17, 2022, 12:44:17 AM
There was at least one shop (now closed), that offered the opportunity to pay in bit-coin, in Ashby-de-la-Zouch - I believe that C19 saw it off, and I obviously have no idea how many bit-coins they accepted while trading.
Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: Bern on November 22, 2022, 09:57:57 AM
Is a picture still worth a thousand words?

SBF.jpg
Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: Bern on November 22, 2022, 10:37:31 AM
Here's a few.....

We only drink bottled water from BPA free containers.

Gee, we had to wear expensive suits and ties while we were making our fortunes.

Sam, Bill, and Tony explaining to a rapt audience the merits of diversifying your retirement nest egg with crypto.

The Three Amigos.

If you can't dazzle them with brilliance, baffle them with BS.

What the heck is a blockchain algorithm?

Sam learned from the best!
Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: David Pilling on November 22, 2022, 01:47:09 PM
Hi Bern

Tee hee

Guilt by association

SBF is the odd one out, he's never been to Blackpool.

Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: David Pilling on November 23, 2022, 03:12:01 AM
If you're Elon Musk and Twitter is broken, who are you going to call, seemingly not me, but George Hotz, world's best programmer. Another example of people having Dickensian names that give a clue to their role in the world.

a "Pilling" is an area of treacherous marsh land from which there is no escape - nuff said.
Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: Bern on November 25, 2022, 10:06:52 AM
Elon Musk also has both a Dickensian name and a Dickensian malefic personality on steroids. He makes Ebenezer Scrooge look amiable by comparison.  Musk recently told his Twitter employees they had to decide whether they wanted to stay on at the company to work "long hours at high intensity" or take a severance package of three months pay.  It is being reported that 5200 employees have left the company since Musk took control, leaving 2300 employees remaining.

I know someone who worked with Musk when he was starting SpaceX.  He told me he had to make a choice to stay with SpaceX and die because of the overwork and stress, or leave the company and live.  He chose to live.

George Hotz was wise to limit his commitment to 12 weeks.

Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: David Pilling on November 25, 2022, 01:22:47 PM
Quote from: Bern on November 25, 2022, 10:06:52 AM"long hours at high intensity"

That's why I am doing the PBS computer stuff - it's good fun as a programmer, problem is that you can't keep it up for years on end.

Quote from: Bern on November 25, 2022, 10:06:52 AMGeorge Hotz was wise to limit his commitment to 12 weeks.

Nothing like a made up deadline to generate stress.

Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: Bern on November 27, 2022, 11:54:29 AM
Quote from: David Pilling on November 25, 2022, 01:22:47 PMit's good fun as a programmer, problem is that you can't keep it up for years on end

Musk is known for working people 70 hours a week and paying them for 40.  Most of the money goes up the chain, well, to him.  What a swell guy.  It's just not a sustainable way to live.

It seems that almost every account I have on my computer now is going to a 2 factor authentication.  It's getting to be a real pain.  I know it's better than being hacked, but it is slowing things down and making using the computer much less enjoyable.  I wonder how long the 2 factor authentication will withstand the cyber-criminals?  Will there be a 3 factor authentication?  Will we be forced into biometric authentication?  At some point in time, will people get fed up with it and stop using their computers as much?
Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: David Pilling on November 27, 2022, 06:12:43 PM
For me two factor has only happened for financial transactions. I believe it is a legal requirement for them in the UK. For other things where it is rare anyway I have avoided it.

It almost always uses my phone - which is tedious for me, because I keep my phone turned off. But for most people who live on their phone, it will be easy enough.

Some of my logon experiences have been a real achievement - find all the passwords, pin numbers, get the code from the phone. Because the phone now has to be used as part of banking, it now has to be password protected too.

Not sure what 3 factor would be like - some banks provide little electronic devices that generate codes - maybe you'd enter one of them.

Maintaining the PBS server, I get to see the log files and it is under constant attack. So great are the number of attempts to guess passwords that it is immediately obvious that old style passwords of a few letters are not good enough.

Anyway here in Europe we have the Cookie laws to spoil our web browsing pleasure - every time you visit a web site that creates a cookie it is supposed to ask your permission, as many do, and it is really irritating.

I have to have software installed that intercepts these messages. Others presumably consider the requests and are grateful to the people who protect their privacy.
Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: CG100 on November 27, 2022, 11:28:35 PM
I do not use a mobile - authentication goes to my landline.
I have yet to have a problem away from home, but it wil happen at some stage.

i must be one of very many thousands in the same position in the UK.
Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: David Pilling on November 28, 2022, 03:09:37 AM
Quote from: CG100 on November 27, 2022, 11:28:35 PMI do not use a mobile - authentication goes to my landline.
I have yet to have a problem away from home, but it will happen at some stage.

I've wondered about that (because sometimes I get a landline call). So far for payments in shops there has been no need for a text or phone call.

As to people getting fed up... they've closed many physical banks.
Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: CG100 on November 28, 2022, 09:17:06 AM
Quote from: David Pilling on November 28, 2022, 03:09:37 AMAs to people getting fed up... they've closed many physical banks.

Yes, mine closed a few months back - to be fair, I very seldom ued it, but it also took the only cashpoint with it in the small town shopping area (not that I use cash very often either).

There needs to be far more of these shop/post-office/building society/bank conglomerations - always a shop and PO but various financial institutions man a secure office on a rota.
Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: Bern on November 28, 2022, 10:25:17 AM
Here's a photo of Ukraine at night from November 24th.  It must be quite cold as well as dark at night in Ukraine. I don't think anyone there is heating their greenhouses now.

ukrnight20221124-s.jpg
Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: David Pilling on November 28, 2022, 04:34:06 PM
Bern - striking photo. How bright do the prairie states look at night - they grow a lot of grain in Ukraine. Back in WW2 it was all about "black outs" in Europe, not displaying any light that bombers could use to guide them (it is a big part of many tales, yet they were using radio beams for guidance by the end). I wonder what the GPS signal is like in Ukraine these days - trustworthy(?).

Headline in one of today's national papers "British Fruit and Veg Could disappear as growers can't afford to heat greenhouses"

cucumbers, peppers, aubergines and tomatoes are the likely problem.

"Those in the cucumber capital, the Lea valley north east of London, face loses of up to 30p on each one sold for 69p"

Normally I'd rush out and buy anything being sold at a loss, but I don't like cucumber.

(1p = 1 pence = 1/100th of a pound, which today is $1.19)
Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: Bern on November 28, 2022, 05:20:34 PM
Here's the Geostationary Operational Environmental Satellite image of the USA tonight at about 1AM on Nov. 29 in the UK. It is a true color image and the sun has set for the night on the USA. The prairie states have a surprising amount of light coming from their many cities and towns. So it appears that Ukraine is either dark because the electricity distribution system is down or because of mandatory black outs to prevent targeting. 

It might be a good idea to stock up now on frozen or canned veggies for the winter season if greenhouse grown produce will be either nonexistent or in short supply.

20223330056_GOES16-ABI-CONUS-GEOCOLOR-5000x3000.jpg
Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: David Pilling on November 28, 2022, 06:39:13 PM
Bern - thanks for the photo of the USA by night - nice try on my part to evade the obvious explanation for the darkness in Ukraine.

At the moment in the UK we are contenting ourselves with panic buying eggs - because bird flu, energy prices, feed prices

Mostly in Winter veggies come from Spain and North Africa - Morocco, Egypt - down to Kenya and for the likes of apricots, South Africa.

I don't know if there will be shortages - supermarkets may have changed suppliers.

Plenty of UK grown strawberries available today.
Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: Martin Bohnet on November 28, 2022, 11:46:11 PM
Actually I remember to see Ukrainian products only form of chanterells and blueberries, but opposed to my partner I'm not obsessed with the origin of products (i know I should)

As for the authentication game: I'm fine with the big players, they all have alternatives to SMS. Trouble now hit me in form of my energy supplier - as digital electricity meters are not standard here, they want me to enter the current value on an internet page - fine with that, but the only way to open a profile is a confirmation via SMS code. They don't reply contact form complaints and have sent the second letter that I should transmit them the data. I'll try to call them , maybe today. I hate half-baked digital solutions.
Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: David Pilling on November 29, 2022, 10:23:44 AM
There is an epic programme of fitting "smart meters" going on in the UK. They read themselves and communicate the data back via the mobile phone network. Having one fitted is voluntary for now.

The pros are that it is easier to monitor energy use and one can get cheaper energy in some situations like at night, or be rewarded for reducing energy consumption. UK was on the brink of needing this tonight due to World Cup Soccer game combined with cold weather.

The cons are that after having one fitted my neighbour was without power for a few days. The man can sit at his computer and turn off your energy. They can also remotely switch your meter into prepayment mode.

A presenter on one of the news channels was saying "what if we all just didn't pay our energy bills" - well the computers would turn off your energy - the argument about lack of enforcement to deal with mass protests would not apply.

Why does soccer require so much energy - shouldn't we ban it until the war is over.

During the industrial action in the 70s which resulted in actual rolling black-outs, they turned off all the TV transmitters at 10:30PM.

I've got a container of paraffin for the greenhouse heater, come the apocalypse, I know from the 70s, I'll be laughing.

Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: Martin Bohnet on November 29, 2022, 10:49:33 AM
Quote from: David Pilling on November 29, 2022, 10:23:44 AMWhy does soccer require so much energy - shouldn't we ban it until the war is over.

still wondering why it's presented to you by your friendly gas provider Qatar?

On the other hand, TVs went down the same road as cars: every bit of efficiency improvement we engineers got out of the hardware was eaten up by making the things bigger & bigger. "That's what the customer wants" they keep telling us. Those fancy marketing guys telling you this don't have to fit those beasts into moms living room wall system from the 90ies...
Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: Robin Hansen on November 30, 2022, 07:31:10 AM
Going back to David's comment about smart meters, isn't prepayment mode the next step on the road to ruin, poverty and a police state, not allowing dissent?
Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: CG100 on November 30, 2022, 07:39:56 AM
Quote from: Robin Hansen on November 30, 2022, 07:31:10 AMisn't prepayment mode the next step on the road to ruin, poverty and a police state, not allowing dissent?

Prepayment in the UK pretty well always means having a meter which accepts coins or some kind of prepayment card - in other words, you pay in advance of use.

It is totally normal in the UK for fuel bills to be averaged over 12 monthly payments, based on the previous year's use, so payments in summer are partially in advance of using fuel over-winter. I do not see how/why the vast majority of people would find that a problem or undesirable - generally you pay the same in each of the 12 months.
Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: David Pilling on November 30, 2022, 10:13:10 AM
Quote from: Robin Hansen on November 30, 2022, 07:31:10 AMisn't prepayment mode the next step on the road to ruin, poverty and a police state

8-)

14% are on prepayment meters for energy in the UK. It is a long standing situation.

The rest are mostly on "direct debit", the utility company take a fixed amount direct from your bank account every month. The idea was that half the year you'd be in debt and the other half in credit. That used to work, but at the moment my utility ensures I am in as much credit all year long as I will stand.

"In 2022, the average Brit has £7,509 saved.  1 in 5 (20%) Brits have no savings at all."

Which may explain why not everyone is on direct debit.

Meanwhile...

"A Quarter of Americans at Risk of Winter Power Blackouts, Grid Emergencies."
Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: Bern on November 30, 2022, 04:19:29 PM
Quote from: David Pilling on November 30, 2022, 10:13:10 AM"A Quarter of Americans at Risk of Winter Power Blackouts, Grid Emergencies."

Here's a link to the full article on this topic.

https://oilprice.com/Energy/Energy-General/A-Quarter-Of-All-Americans-Could-Face-Energy-Emergencies-This-Winter.html

This happens sometimes in parts of the country that do not usually experience extreme cold. In 2021 there were rolling blackouts in Oklahoma when bitterly cold air penetrated the middle of the country all the way to the Gulf of Mexico.  In 2011, a burst of record cold weather in New Mexico resulted in the loss of natural gas for heating in much of the state. The same thing might happen this year, but it could be more widespread if the article proves to be correct.

We live in interesting times. It's much more pleasant to live in uninteresting times for sure.
 
Geeks note: "May you live in interesting times" is not a Chinese curse according to Wikipedia. It is supposed have originated in England around 1936.  Apparently, there are no known equivalent phrases in Chinese. The closest phrase in Chinese is "Better to be a dog in times of tranquility than a human in times of chaos."

It's much more pleasant to quote the English version to most people.

 
Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: David Pilling on December 01, 2022, 04:37:16 AM
"olde English curses" - plenty of those around here.

Is there an interesting times index.

Perhaps the vix which spiked nicely on 20th March 2020.
Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: Bern on December 02, 2022, 10:06:08 AM
Vix might be an interesting times index. You can easily see the spike for the 2008 and 2009 financial fiasco as well as the 2020 covid reaction. The trouble is that it's mostly clear in hindsight; you can't really tell how bad things are going to be until they are quite advanced.

 Vix.jpeg.jpg

For the 2011 cold spell in the US southwest in 2011, commercial succulent greenhouses in Tucson, Arizona ran out of natural gas and lost a lot of their inventory to the freeze.

In the 2021 freeze in Texas, an officer in the Cactus and Succulent Society of America reported that he lost most of the plants in his greenhouse when his utilities were cut off.

So, you don't just have to worry about whether or not you can afford to heat your greenhouse this winter, you have to have a backup plan in case you lose power or natural gas as well.  A backup propane or paraffin heater is good planning just in case.
Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: David Pilling on December 02, 2022, 05:38:51 PM
Bern - noticeable that Vix is in general higher post pandemic.

Could you avoid reading the newspapers and just look at a market index... the old quote is "Wall Street indexes predicted nine out of the last five recessions"

During the worst of Covid the stock market was a better way of seeing what was going on than trying to make sense of the medical data - serious investors employ people to do the work.

Must be heartbreaking if you lose your plants due to heating failure. The sort of problem that farmers in general face with the weather.
Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: janemcgary on December 03, 2022, 08:18:49 AM
I've been growing geophytes for about 35 years now without heating the frames or roofed, open-sided shelter I now use. I've found that simply covering marginally hardy plants in growth during severe cold periods (below 20 F here) increases survival. Microfoam row cover is available to the nursery industry here, but lately I use the thin quilts used by furniture movers; the latter are available at low cost from places that sell cheap hardware, such as Harbor Freight. I set my vulnerable container plants on the patio floor and tuck the quilts around the flats. Sometimes I protect marginal crocuses in growth just by putting a drinking glass upside-down over them. All the plants in the bulb house are plunged in sand. I haven't experimented properly, but I suspect that one can gain an extra 5 degrees F by these simple expedients. This might not help with obligatorily frost-free, actual tropical species, though.
Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: Robin Hansen on December 03, 2022, 08:33:37 AM
Here is a very encouraging article from The Guardian that shows one way of coping with climate change.
https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2022/dec/03/south-dakota-reservation-food-desert-residents-transforming-crop-oasis?ref=upstract.com 
Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: Bern on December 03, 2022, 11:03:21 AM
I've read the articles about stock indices predicting recessions and I just don't believe that the hype is true. You need more information about what you're looking at. And fortunately, I found it in this chart. Here's the S&P Composite stretching back to 1870 based on the real (inflation-adjusted) monthly average of daily closes. This is a snapshot at about the time of the all time high for the US stock market with 150 years of data. The key point is that this chart is a detrended linear regression line with the standard deviations clearly shown. The current all time high is greater than 4 SDs.  As you know, this is an almost impossible probability and it had never been reached before in 150 years. This chart should clearly indicate a regression to the mean is forthcoming and recession is on the way. Caution should be the order of the day. Instead,wild and imprudent gambling is going on right now.  If the S&P sat squarely on the regression line in this chart, it would be at 1698. A mean regression of 50 to 70% is probable.

RtoT.jpeg.jpg

Here's the link for the most current chart. (Someone should do the same thing for the FTSE)

https://www.advisorperspectives.com/dshort/updates/2022/11/03/regression-to-trend-106-above-trend-in-october

When the regression to the mean occurs, many people could badly hurt if they are heavily invested in the stock market.

Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: David Pilling on December 03, 2022, 05:06:20 PM
Bern - very interesting chart which made me think.

The quote about predicting recessions is from Paul Samuelson in 1966, from your chart it might make more sense then. When were there recessions, since they've stopped having them by reducing interest rates and QE. Wikipedia has a list, early 2000's early 90's early 80's. Downward blips on the chart then. Interesting that the 1920s Wall Street boom is a modest upward blip. Anyone buying at the top just had to hold on till 1960 to get their money back.

US shares have always looked expensive from the UK for the last 30 years. I did find similarish analysis for the FTSE and it is below the trend. But UK today is a lot different to UK in 1920 or 1940.

Probably a sudden fall of the S&P to the trend would have real world consequences and the central bank would have to do more quantitative easing.
Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: David Pilling on December 03, 2022, 05:12:46 PM
Robin - the Guardian article is interesting - underground greenhouse - good idea for someone. Not here since the water table is about six inches below the surface.

The other aspect of the article is something like community gardening, which often appears on TV here in the UK, Google tells me it was invented in the USA.

Like not everyone is going to get everything from the supermarket - some are going to have to grow their own food, like peasants in the olden days - either for reasons of cost or as therapy. Not quite the world of flying cars one imagined.

At first underground greenhouses seem doomed to be for mushrooms - but they have glazed tops above ground.
Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: Martin Bohnet on December 03, 2022, 08:57:30 PM
Underground Greenhouse - or coldhouse is another reason why I'd love to buy a neighbor's house - remove the house, cover the basement, and voila, there we are. Now I just need the funding and the agreement of the neighbor. Maybe it would be more realistic to just reproduce Pinky&brain's plan of a paper mâché second earth. :'(
Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: Bern on December 04, 2022, 06:24:32 AM
These semi-undergound greenhouses have been around for a long time in the upper midwestern states.  The most sophisticated ones employ geothermal heating to supplement the solar heat collection. 

Here' a link to a company in Nebraska that builds these greenhouses and has been in business for over 35 years. The largest greenhouse that they construct in 2550 square feet. 

https://greenhouseinthesnow.com/

If you have one you can grow citrus in the snow.

https://www.kcur.org/2016-02-11/citrus-in-the-snow-geothermal-greenhouses-grow-local-produce-in-winter

Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: Bern on December 04, 2022, 08:52:34 AM
The ultimate solution to the energy situation in Europe is to build a greenhouse around your house.  This has been done in Sweden to good effect.  It's a very creative solution if you have the money to do it.  It's called a house in a greenhouse.  Why go underground if you don't have to?

https://www.designboom.com/architecture/swedish-family-envelopes-home-in-greenhouse-warm-up-weather-10-21-2021/

house_in_a_greenhouse.jpg
Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: David Pilling on December 04, 2022, 10:15:33 AM
Bern - brilliant photo of the house in Sweden. I'd like one of those... well growing the plants would be nice.

In the UK there was a lot of enthusiasm for "conservatories", glass roofed extensions to houses. By now people are scrapping them - too cold in Winter, too hot in Summer. Rocks are not the only thing people who live in greenhouses have to worry about.

Seems lots of engineering around that Swedish glass house - probably for getting the heat out in Summer.

Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: janemcgary on December 04, 2022, 01:06:10 PM
Fritz Kummert's book "Pflanzen fur das Alpinenhaus" (apologies for omitting umlauts; published by Ulmer) has a very good chapter on the construction of a semi-subterranean alpine house (in Austria), with detailed drawings. It's mostly a plant encyclopedia, with plenty of geophytes discussed. The design of the alpine house is intended to facilitate warming in winter and (important for alpines) cooling in summer -- all or mostly passive. It would have to be where the water table is low enough, though, or on a slope with drains provided.
Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: David Pilling on December 08, 2022, 05:56:01 PM
In an ominous development, I have had my greenhouse heating on for two nights and weeks more of cold weather are now forecast.
Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: CG100 on December 09, 2022, 01:15:40 AM
Quote from: David Pilling on December 08, 2022, 05:56:01 PMIn an ominous development, I have had my greenhouse heating on for two nights and weeks more of cold weather are now forecast.



It is winter. Until the past few days it has been insanely warm Over the past two and the next few days the only thing unusual about the weather is that day temp's are not forecast to get above something like 3C over much of England. 
The forecast for around here - Leicester -is showing frosts of only 1-2C as far as the end of next week, not the 4-6C of the past two nights. Blackpool is looking 2-4C warmer than here.

The forecast is only really accurate up to something like 10 days out anyway. Beyond that they can predict broad trends only.
Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: Bern on December 09, 2022, 01:02:21 PM
The winter solstice is next Wednesday, December 21st. The next few months will be telling. As you know it is the day with the shortest daylight of the year.  Fortunately, the daylight time will begin getting longer and around here it is usually noticeable a few weeks into January. I'm beginning to really like the house in a greenhouse idea. Or, the house in a cloche idea. 
Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: David Pilling on December 09, 2022, 06:46:19 PM
The thing I like is that the earliest sunset is (here) the 17th December. After that the nights start to get lighter - although sunrise continues to get later until some days after the solstice. No argument that the shortest difference in sunrise and sunset is the 21st.

So we only have another week of darker nights.

Quote from: CG100 on December 09, 2022, 01:15:40 AMBeyond that they can predict broad trends only

Europe's fate hinges on the beating of butterfly wings.
Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: Robert_Parks on December 09, 2022, 10:09:38 PM
Quote from: David Pilling on December 09, 2022, 06:46:19 PMThe thing I like is that the earliest sunset is (here) the 17th December. After that the nights start to get lighter - although sunrise continues to get later until some days after the solstice. No argument that the shortest difference in sunrise and sunset is the 21st.
That's some weird, and I understand it for about 30 minutes after I look it up each year.
Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: Martin Bohnet on December 10, 2022, 01:13:41 AM
That's just the friction between easy assumptions (circular rotation of Sol III around Sol, and some fuzz with the inclined axis) and  the reality. The thing what's bothering me is yes, that's the time when the radiation balance starts to get better, but it will take about another 6 weeks until the thermal inertia of the biosphere allows us to really warm up.

Actually, I'd prefer to celebrate the solstice, as it does have a meaning to me, over celebrating that birthday of someone long ago far away. Unfortunately, celebrating the solstice is popular among the extreme right. Which is where I never would want to be.
Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: David Pilling on December 10, 2022, 04:06:16 AM
Quote from: Martin Bohnet on December 10, 2022, 01:13:41 AMI'd prefer to celebrate the solstice

Someone will live stream the events at Stonehenge on the 21st and they will be anything but right wing.
Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: Robin Hansen on December 10, 2022, 07:13:36 AM
Somehow, i find it comforting that such an ancient ritual at Stonehenge is still celebrated. Perhaps in Germany  celebration of the Solstice is considered right-wing, but not here in the US to my knowledge. I may be a baptized Lutheran but I'm certainly not a Christian and like Martin, I celebrate the Solstice with friends even if undercover, especially in this little town that has too many tiny churches on every fifth street corner of whatever denomination.

It may take six weeks to really start to warm up, but believe me within 2-3 days of the Solstice I begin to be aware of the tiny increments of increasingly longer days, almost imperceptible though they may be. Such a great reason for celebration every year! I'm counting the days...
Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: Judy Glattstein on December 10, 2022, 12:59:04 PM
I think of Scandinavian summers as having very long days.

The issue I was warned about when my significantly smaller home greenhouse was about to be ordered was not so much keeping it warm in winter as keeping it cool in summer.

And how do they keep the glass clean . . . I have enough of a problem with windows.

In late spring, the Enid Haupt conservatory at  the New York Botanical Garden is sprayed with a white paint that degrades with  rain. By autumn they hose off the remnants. Which does require equipment with lift buckets etc.
Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: Robin Hansen on December 10, 2022, 01:35:27 PM
Interesting comment about more a matter of overheating in summer... An orchid grower friend who had a 30x30 foot glass room built as an addition to the second story of their home had a different take on the issue. It had glass siding and roof and I asked about cleaning the roof... Seems she preferred not to clean it but to leave it slightly dirty to reduce the amount of direct light, thereby adding some protection.

I've taken that attitude to heart and find it works well enough, and is certainly less hassle than painting the roof with white paint. Bear in mind however we're in coastal southern Oregon... I guess my attitude is that there are always options, some more or less wonderful than others.
Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: janemcgary on December 10, 2022, 04:51:45 PM
Regarding cleaning greenhouse roofs: I just had a window-washing company clean the polycarbonate roof of my bulb house, which gets dirty from tree pollen. I think it's important in my cloudy winter climate to get as much light as possible on my winter-flowering geophytes. Especially in more northerly latitudes, plants can fail to grow "in character" and end up stretched and floppy. Incidentally, the discussion of the winter solstice reminded me of this season when I lived in Fairbanks, Alaska, and every morning the public radio station gave out the day's length. It was a great day when it changed from "seven minutes less than yesterday" to a little increase. My plants then were under artificial light, mostly in my well-heated office and not in the freezing cabin.
Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: Robin Hansen on December 10, 2022, 06:11:15 PM
Jane makes a good point about plants getting leggy. Generally I move the plants needing more light out in very early spring, but for now the greenhouses are mostly full of primulas and seed trays. I've found some crocus and narcissus do better if they winter over in the unheated houses.

I just can't imagine surviving in AK in winter. I suffer enough in the dark of winter on the coast although it's better 200 miles south of Portland where I used to live.

I do wish radio stations hadn't become so automated. Now, you have great difficulty finding locally news broadcast a few times a day, and weather reports are bare bones so it's better to listen to NOAA, all this because we have the most pitiful excuses for local newspapers these days...
Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: Bern on December 18, 2022, 06:32:29 PM
It's going to be extremely cold in the midsection of the USA all of the way down to the Gulf of Mexico this coming Friday night. Folks with greenhouses will be challenged to keep them heated if there are natural gas shortages or rolling brownouts or blackouts of electrical service. Low temp records are sure to be broken and Friday is only day 3 of winter. This will make some people global warming skeptics - at least until the heat of next summer is upon them, especially in south Texas.

Min_Low_Temp_12_23_22.jpg
Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: Robin Hansen on December 18, 2022, 06:59:21 PM
We are lucky here in the Coquille Valley (about 14 miles east of the Pacific Ocean) - the low 20s temps have been ongoing for about 3 weeks with not much increase during the day. I've been watching for signs of damage in the potted nursery stock and so far so good. The gradual cooling is always best and we're a good 10-20 degrees below normal for this time of year, although this habit of saying normal ought to be thrown out on the compost pile.

At the same time, the one enclosed greenhouse with doors shut and under roof ventilation vents permanently open (designed that way) is routinely 5 degrees warmer than open air. Even the alpine house, so-called, which has double-wall siding (opaque, not polycarbonate) is warmer by 2-5 degrees. I can't moan and groan if all this cold means our water supplies increase, although economically there's always a negative impact in some way.

I listen to the local NOAA weather reports and the winters in the 1920s, at least in the west set all kinds of cold records that still exist. My mother as a young child lived in Portland, OR and it was common for the Columbia and Willamette rivers to freeze so solidly that people would drive their Model As and wagons out over the river. In the winter of 1978-79, in Boardman (up on the Columbia), we had a total of 3 feet of snow from Oct. 31 to the end of March and the river froze over where it's three miles wide. It was not hard enough for driving on since the dams widened the river considerably after they were built. Nothing like that has happened since.

So these wide swings have occurred in the past but seem more frequent and increasingly more severe, just from where I live.
Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: Martin Bohnet on December 18, 2022, 08:53:00 PM
Germany has just survived a very cold weekend after an already quite cold week, and of course the definition of "survived" can only really be checked in spring - the nearly flowering Kniphofia sarmentosa
Height: 60-90 cm (2-3 ft)
Flower Colors: red, orange
Flower Season: mid winter to mid spring
Climate: winter rain climate
at least has lost the flower spike and I'll have to be very careful to keep the rootstock from rotting - especially as there WONT be frost for the next week - those swings are a hard blow against vegetation.

Saving is difficult when you have to heat against -11°C (12F), so I've got to top 3 in my 10 year overview in weekly electricity consumption and somewhere in the top 10 with gas. I still tell myself carbon footprint is OK as I didn't fly around in the last 20 years or so.
Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: David Pilling on December 19, 2022, 04:06:01 AM
Two weeks of unusually cold weather - the coldest since the years of 2009 and 2010 when I lost a lot of plants. The difference to other years is sub 0C temperatures during the daytime (for many days together). Temperatures in the greenhouse got below zero C one night - despite my oil lamp. I'm hoping no damage done.

Min temp -6C - not Canada, but cold for here. All change today as temps around 13C.

Keeping the house warm has been stressful - using over 100 kWH per day of electricity.

No mention on the BBC of badly implemented net-zero being to blame for us now being poor.

The supermarket next door got a heat pump this year, this has been running non-stop through the cold, noisy enough to hear indoors. From observation it makes the surroundings colder - robbing heat from their neighbours.

Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: Bern on December 19, 2022, 12:40:30 PM
If one of these arctic cold air incursions of this magnitude intrudes east of the prime meridian this winter, it will be a very serious thing for heating bills.  The one that will hit the US this week is massive and winter will have just officially begun. You can never predict what this means for the rest of the season, so we'll just have to take it a day at a time.

Some houses in southern NM have uninsulated water pipes entering their houses from outside of the foundation. I've seen these myself on houses from Las Cruces to Deming. These will freeze and break if they aren't drained before this cold air hits. This happened in 2011 during another record cold wave that included the loss of natural gas for heating. I doubt anything has changed to correct this since then.

Using 100KWH per day of electricity is quite a lot. I just checked my electric bill for November and I used about 19KWH on average for each day that month. It will be quite higher this month.

Hang in there!
Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: MarkMazer on December 19, 2022, 12:54:41 PM
David, what does a KWH cost in Blackpool? Here in Northeast North Carolina USA, it is about 9.5 pence sterling or $0.12 US dollar.
Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: CG100 on December 19, 2022, 01:25:48 PM
Energy charges are variable to some extent, depending on supplier, and follow a complicated method of setting them in the UK. The whole UK operates on the same system/prices but maximum prices are set by a quango.

At the moment, electricity is around 19p per kWhr, gas is around 10p, but they are indirectly linked via the method used to set wholesale electricity prices.
Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: MarkMazer on December 19, 2022, 02:28:10 PM
QUANGO... fascinating term/acronym, new to me. Thanks. Here in the USA, they swarm mostly in the Washington DC swamp.
Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: Bern on December 19, 2022, 03:09:54 PM
Here in Williamsburg the cost of a fully loaded KWH is about 15 cents.  This figure was arrived at by dividing the total bill by the KWH.  There are many distinct line items in the bill such as transmission, distribution, generation, and taxes, etc.  I'm on a grid for a local nuclear plant. I just got their annual calendar that includes instructions on how to evacuate in case of an emergency. 

QUANGO, from quasi NGO. Sounds like a new aussie nickname for kangaroo. I much prefer the kangaroos.
Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: janemcgary on December 19, 2022, 05:38:27 PM
It's interesting that Robin Hansen lives nearly 200 miles south of me, and closer to the ocean, but temperatures where I live are quite a bit warmer the past week or so. Just another example of why USDA climate zones (the 1 to 10 ratings) don't apply to the far western states.
Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: David Pilling on December 19, 2022, 06:09:10 PM
Here in Blackpool (I doubt these numbers will be much different to elsewhere in England):

Electricity 48.88p/kWh less the energy price guarantee 17p/kWh plus 5% VAT equals 33.4 pence per kWh

Gas 14.05p/kWh less the energy price guarantee 4.22p/kWh plus 5% VAT equals 10.32 pence per kWh

There is a small additional "standing charge" per day.

The "price guarantee" is the UK government capping prices - borrowing and taxing and giving the money to energy suppliers. The average UK household is supposed to use around £2500 of energy per year after the price cap.

1 pound is 100 pence is US$1.21 today.


New governments traditionally have a "bonfire of the quangos" but the numbers keep growing.
Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: MarkMazer on December 20, 2022, 07:07:41 AM
David... We use propane gas to heat the greenhouse. The last delivery worked out to $.11 USD per KWH and factoring in the heater efficiency, $.13 USD or about 10.7 pence sterling per KWH.
Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: Judy Glattstein on December 20, 2022, 11:47:18 AM
We have an in-ground 1,000 gallon propane tank that fuels kitchen stove, hot water, heat for house and greenhouse. Clothes dryer uses electricity as it vents to garage (hey, we didn't build the place.)

With the very low temperatures forecast for the end of the week my husband installed the auxiliary electric heater that was used last winter. Smallish box unit suspended about 4 feet off the floor. It's at the opposite end of the 8 ft by 18 ft greenhouse from the gas heater. Basically, I turn it on after dark, setting its thermostat so it just comes on at appropriate temperature before it drops even more at night. There is bubble wrap on all vertical glass to ground walls.
Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: janemcgary on December 20, 2022, 12:08:04 PM
Going back to the mention of semi-underground greenhouses, yesterday my exploration of ancient AGS journals turned up an article on how one English gardener in 1941 dug a bomb shelter in his back garden, and was inspired to use the angled sandbags-on-metal cover to add a few rocks and a lot of plants to create what might be called an artificial moraine. Nothing can stop a mad gardener -- not even the Blitz.
Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: MarkMazer on December 20, 2022, 01:21:45 PM
Quote from: Judy Glattstein on December 20, 2022, 11:47:18 AM"at appropriate temperature before it drops even more at night."  We keep the greenhouse here "frost free"... AKA... thermostat at 35F/1C. Tropicals spend the winter in the house... disasters have occured.

setting its thermostat so it just comes on at the appropriate temperature before it drops even more at night. T
Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: David Pilling on December 20, 2022, 04:36:49 PM
Quote from: MarkMazer on December 20, 2022, 07:07:41 AMDavid... We use propane gas to heat the greenhouse. The last delivery worked out to $.11 USD per KWH and factoring in the heater efficiency, $.13 USD or about 10.7 pence sterling per KWH.

Interesting, not much different to UK. Bottled gas to my surprise is about the same price, but plus carriage which can be as much as the gas.

Next winter is the problem. Europe is now dependent on LNG, the UK has done a deal with the USA and the Qataris have said that maybe the EU should stop being critical now it is reliant on them for energy.

LNG is more expensive and does more damage to the environment but is politically acceptable whilst extracting gas from the North Sea or from fraking is not.
Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: Martin Bohnet on December 20, 2022, 09:35:11 PM
Quote from: David Pilling on December 20, 2022, 04:36:49 PMLNG is more expensive and does more damage to the environment but is politically acceptable whilst extracting gas from the North Sea or from fraking is not.

Ah, the joy of acceptable damage elswhere. like Lithium in the Atacama. Or Gold almost everywhere it is still mined (I think I mentioned before how pointless that stuff is and how humanity should move away from collecting glitter with little practical use).

But its true about the mid term perspective - and as a gay man I'm even less thrilled to depend on Quatar and other emirates - not that Russia is less of a problem from that perspective. So how much gas can be made from foul biomass? And will even I with my panic to drop a 10th of a Kelvin outside think about a heat pump?
Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: Bern on December 21, 2022, 06:47:58 AM
The winter solstice arrived today. I associate winter with clear night skies and a good view of the stars and constellations. Here's a poem to commemorate the onset of winter.

  Canis Major
  Robert Frost (1874-1963)

    The great Overdog,
    That heavenly beast
    With a star in one eye,
    Gives a leap in the east.

    He dances upright
    All the way to the west
    And never once drops
    On his forefeet to rest.

    I'm a poor underdog,
    But tonight I will bark
    With the great Overdog
    That romps through the dark.
Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: MarkMazer on December 21, 2022, 07:08:58 AM
 "glitter with little practical use"

A small amount of gold is used in almost every sophisticated electronic device and is widely used in the aerospace and glass and medical industries.
Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: Bern on December 21, 2022, 08:05:18 AM
The big freeze in the USA will begin tonight and continue for at least 4 nights.  Here's what tonight will look like.

Low Temps Dec 21 2022.jpg
Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: Bern on December 21, 2022, 09:13:22 AM
Quote from: MarkMazer on December 21, 2022, 07:08:58 AM"glitter with little practical use"

A small amount of gold is used in almost every sophisticated electronic device and is widely used in the aerospace and glass and medical industries.

"Money is gold. Everything else is debt."

(Apparently a quote or approximation by J.P. Morgan.)
Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: Martin Bohnet on December 21, 2022, 10:39:54 AM
Quote from: Bern on December 21, 2022, 09:13:22 AM
Quote from: MarkMazer on December 21, 2022, 07:08:58 AM"glitter with little practical use"

A small amount of gold is used in almost every sophisticated electronic device and is widely used in the aerospace and glass and medical industries.

"Money is gold. Everything else is debt."

(Apparently a quote or approximation by J.P. Morgan.)

Gold is almost always a compromise - silver is the better thermal and electric conductor, Platinum, Palladium and Ruthenium are better catalysts for most applications. In favor of gold is of course the resistance to corroding. But compared to the abundance of the element it is far overprized because of all the cultural burden and that ridiculous notion of the crisis-resistant value. In any crisis I'd prefer something edible or an energy source.

Money, as the over-estimation of gold, may one day be irrelevant, though it may still take a few generations to have a post-scarcity society and a united planet. And maybe we can get there without the eugenic wars by stopping to tell our children gold was so important that mythical creatures like dragons have to guard it. If you want to tell a child about the stuff, try King Midas' tale.
Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: David Pilling on December 21, 2022, 07:17:42 PM
Quote from: Bern on December 21, 2022, 09:13:22 AM"Money is gold. Everything else is debt."

Great quote. Perhaps gold stands for physical assets.

Seemingly Donald Trump was keen on returning to the gold standard.

"central banks globally bought 399 tonnes of gold in the third quarter of 2022, by far the most ever in a single three-month period"

I have no bling, but I recall in the 60s there was a legal limit on how much gold one could own in the UK. Google tells me there were restrictions in the USA too (from 1933 to 1974).
Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: David Pilling on December 21, 2022, 07:29:13 PM
Quote from: Bern on December 21, 2022, 06:47:58 AMCanis Major

Every dog has his day, but the dog days are of Summer, when Sirius the dog star and brightest in the constellation Canis Major rises.

Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: CG100 on December 22, 2022, 12:09:18 AM
Quote from: MarkMazer on December 21, 2022, 07:08:58 AMA small amount of gold is used in almost every sophisticated electronic device and is widely used in the aerospace and glass and medical industries.

Gold is everywhere in electronics - a few years ago now, but UK TV showed a report from a factory on mainland W Europe (Belgium?), where they crushed old mobile phones and recovered metals from them. They were crushing a lot of phones, but were reclaiming an awful lot of gold.

Try the search on YouTube -  gold from mobile phones

Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: Bern on December 22, 2022, 06:13:18 AM
The big freeze advances today. There will be several more days of this before it moderates.  Here is the map of tonight's low temperatures.

Dangerously Cold Temperatures and Blizzard Conditions for Central U.S.; Heavy Rain and High Winds for the East

Low Temps Dec 22 2022.jpg
Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: Bern on December 22, 2022, 10:23:12 AM
Quote from: David Pilling on December 21, 2022, 07:17:42 PMI have no bling, but I recall in the 60s there was a legal limit on how much gold one could own in the UK. Google tells me there were restrictions in the USA too (from 1933 to 1974).

Roosevelt issued an executive decree outlawing the ownership of gold in 1933, ostensibly to deal with the depression. The Bretton Woods agreement post WWII maintained somewhat the gold standard for foreign balance of payments. This lasted until 1971 when Nixon stopped foreign countries, primarily the UK at the time, from redeeming US obligations for gold. Again, ostensibly for dealing with inflation and the financing of the Vietnam war.  Ford signed congressional legislation allowing US citizens to own gold again in 1974.

Nixon's actions to end the gold redemptions of the Bretton Woods agreement allowed the FED to inflate, seemingly with impunity, thus creating the many boom and bust cycles we've endured since then.  The latest metastasis of this cycle we are now experiencing as inflation and the everything bubble in stocks, bonds, and housing. 

Most bankers always think that debt is wealth.  I think JP Morgan was correct: "Money is gold. Everything else is debt."
Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: CG100 on December 22, 2022, 10:24:53 AM
The US "big freeze" looks very like a UK normal winter north-south, and so far looks like what we had 1-2 weeks ago - -10 to -15 in Scotland, -3 or slightly lower in the south.

The variation that the UK sees is how long any one cold spell lasts, and when, and if it repeats in any one winter.
Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: Bern on December 22, 2022, 10:25:47 AM
Quote from: David Pilling on December 21, 2022, 07:29:13 PMEvery dog has his day, but the dog days are of Summer, when Sirius the dog star and brightest in the constellation Canis Major rises.

Alas, my intentions were good.  And it is a nice poem.
Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: David Pilling on December 22, 2022, 06:10:03 PM
Quote from: Bern on December 22, 2022, 10:25:47 AMAlas, my intentions were good.  And it is a nice poem.

No arguing, it is a Winter constellation.

Mr Biden has been on the BBC tonight, good luck to everyone in the USA with the cold weather. I've already been asked when it will appear here.
Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: David Pilling on December 23, 2022, 03:40:57 AM
"Everything You Need to Know About the Chinese Diesel Heater - MY SHOP IS WARM!"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TPM2JKlz9Ck

These things seem to be flavour of the year. Too big for my greenhouse. Perhaps I should get one for the house.

Then if I took up eating chips (fries) again I could run it off the waste oil.

They're sometimes called a "parking heater", because engine idling is illegal/inefficient.

Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: Robert_Parks on December 23, 2022, 05:59:32 AM
Quote from: David Pilling on December 23, 2022, 03:40:57 AM"Everything You Need to Know About the Chinese Diesel Heater - MY SHOP IS WARM!"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TPM2JKlz9Ck

These things seem to be flavour of the year. Too big for my greenhouse. Perhaps I should get one for the house.

Then if I took up eating chips (fries) again I could run it off the waste oil.

They're sometimes called a "parking heater", because engine idling is illegal/inefficient.


Looks like one might be perfect for emergency situations (extreme temps or outages)
Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: Arnold on December 23, 2022, 06:05:47 AM
We are predicted to reach 12 F this evening.
Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: MarkMazer on December 23, 2022, 07:13:14 AM
Quote from: CG100 on December 22, 2022, 12:09:18 AMGold is everywhere in electronics
Worked for a firm that made and installed semiconductor processing equipment at the old Fairchild/National/TI fab in Danbury CT back in the 1970s and early 1980s (long gone). One of our coworkers always volunteered to work late at night and early in the morning.  He was arrested for going into the gold vacuum sputtering room and collecting gold from the machinery and cleanroom surfaces.
Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: CG100 on December 23, 2022, 07:27:54 AM
Quote from: MarkMazer on December 23, 2022, 07:13:14 AMHe was arrested for going into the gold vacuum sputtering room and collecting gold from the machinery and cleanroom surfaces.

LOL - that reminds me of floorboards and the various jewellery quarters (districts) across the UK.

The floors of the various workshops were ripped out and replaced every so many years, and the old floorboards sold   :)

They probably are today as well.
Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: Bern on December 23, 2022, 07:44:47 AM
Winter storm Elliott has now been declared a bomb cylcone. A bomb cyclone is a fast-developing storm that occurs when atmospheric pressure drops at least 24 millibars over a 24-hour period. Arctic air and dangerous wind chill values will continue for most of the eastern two-thirds of the country into the holiday weekend. Tonight should be the lowest temps in most areas from this storm, although very cold weather will persist for several more days. Wyoming saw record low temps yesterday of -42F (-41C) and these temps without windchill factored in.

Low Temps Dec 23 2022.jpg 

Temps here in Williamsburg will plummet 40 degrees F today.  The low will be 9F (-13C).

Williamsburg Dec 23 2022.jpg

The people heating greenhouses will be challenged by these temps. Good luck!
 




Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: CG100 on December 23, 2022, 09:49:05 AM
The US weather is making a good deal of news here in the UK.
I am hoping that everyone stays safe.

My experience and memory in the UK goes back to two cold spells - I can JUST remember the long freeze of the early 1960's - I had not long since started school - that lasted weeks but did not get REALLY cold. The length of the freeze killed huge amounts of wildlife.

More recently we had a freeze that took air temp' down to -20C and windchill to -40C, and it snowed heavily - drifts were 6-8-10 feet deep - my garden was 6 feet under snow, although the field at the rear of the property was almost clear because of the wind!!! That was back in the late 1980's (I believe), and it lasted several days.
Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: janemcgary on December 23, 2022, 04:56:01 PM
My container plants are on the patio floor and wrapped up under lightweight "mover's quilts." The bulb house denizens are on their own at about 20 F; many are not emerged yet, and most have survived it before. My suburb at the south edge of Portland, Oregon missed the threatened freezing rain so far; ground is covered in graupel, which is dangerous to walk or drive on but doesn't cling to plants. My new high-efficiency furnace stopped working when its condensate drain tube froze in an unthawable place, but I have a secondary furnace in the wing of the house with this nice warm office, and an environmentally offensive wood-burning fireplace elsewhere. Also a pot of cabbage borscht big enough for a soup kitchen.
Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: Bern on December 23, 2022, 05:18:27 PM
Quote from: David Pilling on December 22, 2022, 06:10:03 PM
QuoteAlas, my intentions were good.  And it is a nice poem.

No arguing, it is a Winter constellation.
Canis Major.jpg
 "The constellation Canis Major, the great dog, is located in the southern hemisphere of the sky. It is visible in the northern hemisphere from December through March. Its name means "the greater dog" in Latin.  It represents the larger of Orion's two hunting dogs who accompany him as he hunts Lepus, the rabbit." Sirius is its brightest star and means "Scorching."

At least this constellation actually resembles what it is named for........

Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: Arnold on December 23, 2022, 06:43:05 PM
We have 8 F right now outside.  Greenhouse temps holding at 42 F.
Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: Martin Bohnet on December 23, 2022, 09:25:32 PM
I'm suffering with you, with our cold spell being less than a week ago. I almost feel bad to see the consequence of your cold: When it hits the warm atlantic waters it will boost the westwind conditions for Europe, keeping frost away from me for quite a while.
Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: David Pilling on December 24, 2022, 03:00:00 AM
Quote from: Bern on December 23, 2022, 05:18:27 PMAt least this constellation actually resembles what it is named for........

I agree, that is pretty good, it does not stop people on the internet writing "Look for Sirius, the eye of the dog in Orion", anyway brightest star in the sky, magnitude less than -1
Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: Bern on December 24, 2022, 07:36:08 AM
Merry Christmas to All! 

Stay safe and warm, and enjoy Christmas.

Cheers,

Bern
Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: Judy Glattstein on December 24, 2022, 08:23:32 AM
Here in western New Jersey it is clear blue skies and somewhat windy.

When I got up at 2:30 a.m. to put more wood in the stove it was 6 degrees Fahrenheit outside the front door, 4.5 degrees F on the roof (according to my weather station. I assure you that A) I don't go up there any more, at any season and B) wouldn't want to risk startling Santa and the reindeer.)

It is currently, 11:15 a.m. and 8.6 degrees F. on the roof. Mostly clear blue sky and somewhat windy.

Greenhouse is holding at 50 degrees F. Yesterday evening I turned up the thermostat for the propane heater and set the auxiliary electric heater to turn on if the temperature at that end of the greenhouse dropped below 50 degrees F. So far, so good.
Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: Bern on December 30, 2022, 05:35:55 PM
Here's another view of Canis Major, the bigger dog, with the image rotated to make the dog appear to have his feet on the ground.

Canis Major Orientation.jpg

And what a difference one week has made with the temperatures.  It was 9F (-13C) last Friday night and today it was sunny and 65F (18C). 

Have a Happy New Year!
Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: David Pilling on December 31, 2022, 10:05:08 AM
Quote from: Bern on December 30, 2022, 05:35:55 PMHere's another view of Canis Major

Dog with a diamond in its collar... What do the stars foretell for gardening in 2023 - a mast year, a year when the amaryllis flower, a plague of frogs, what to plant...

It would be helpful to assign star signs to bulbs on the wiki based on when they flower.

"And so, as Tiny Tim said, 'A Happy New Year to us all; God bless us, everyone!"


Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: Bern on January 04, 2023, 10:36:58 AM
Bull_Terrier.jpg
This is not Canis Major the constellation, but it is a big dog. It's an English Bull Terrier. This one is from a Breed Rescue site in the US. The dog's name is Hammy and he's about 80 pounds. I wanted to own one of these dogs for years, but as I learned more about them, especially the ones for adoption, I finally gave up on them.  Here are some of the undesirable traits that many of these dogs exhibit.

Best if it is the only dog in the household.
Does not walk well on a leash.
Has a very high prey drive.
Will try to be dominate over other members in the household other than the owner.
Best if there are no small children in the house.
Cannot be around a cat for any reason.
Is working on overcoming its food aggression.

A woman at the park where I walk has one of these dogs and it is a very impressive animal.  Fittingly, his name is Ego and he clocks in at almost 90 pounds and is all muscle. She confirmed everything on the above list and even added a few more. The breed has a lot of skin problems and as a consequence she has very high veterinary bills. It once bit her husband on the face, requiring an emergency room visit for stitches and a follow-up visit by the local animal control officer for a behavioral evaluation. And my favorite story is that Ego one day caught and ate a snake before she could do anything to prevent it. This is the first time I've heard of a dog catching and eating a snake.

I was recently looking at Jack Russell terriers and they have the same issue in a smaller package. They'd be great if you owned a large piece of property and had problems in your garden with gophers, voles, moles, or mice.
Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: CG100 on January 04, 2023, 11:09:32 AM
An AWFUL lot of rubbish talked there if the bull terrier was UK bloodlines.

Over here in the UK, they have a very phlegmatic disposition and are actually very loving and lovable, although lots of people are wary because of their looks, and reputations transferred from bull-terrier breeds that are a result of the morrons at the opposite end of the leads.

No dog likes to share if they are there first, but how things go is down to the human at least as much as the dogs.

Most of the nonsense is down to people, NOT the dogs.

Terriers are terriers - up and at 'em, always at the ready, and then lick you half way to death.

Hounds, even minature dach's, are off into the far blue yonder after a scent if they have half a chance.

Etc.

Living as lap-dogs has done little to change what they were actually bred for. Thankfully.
Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: Martin Bohnet on January 04, 2023, 11:32:24 PM
Actually I don't think dogs will be too helpful in heating ones greenhouse. As a cat-owned person (we all know its this way around) I can say they're excellent pre-heaters for seats in case you manage to move them away, but it is a very local effect.

That said I seem to be the only person happy with middle-European winter weather, as the westwind drift seem to be set in stone for at least the second decade of January. All the weatherguys n girls are whining about "too warm for the season". I'm still not sure what they like about the cold - the increased number of car crashes due to bad conditions, the homeless people frozen to death, the extra leverage for Putins gas blackmail attempt? Currently, the German national gas reserve increases since December 21st. I like.
Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: Judy Glattstein on January 05, 2023, 03:26:57 PM
I think I remember reading something about keeping rabbits - or was it chickens? - under the greenhouse benches as an auxiliary heat source. Myself, I'd go for rabbits. Their waste is neatly pelleted, easy to clean. Chicken poop is sloppy. Rabbits are quiet. Chickens are not.

Just saying . . .
Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: MarkMazer on January 06, 2023, 07:34:24 AM
We kept a couple of male mini-lops in the small CT greenhouse one brutal winter and the ammonia buildup was problematic and required extra ventilation. I'd guess it was a zero-sum game.
Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: Martin Bohnet on January 06, 2023, 10:56:53 AM
current suggestions for rabbit keeping are at a minimum of 4m² per couple if they are taken out regularly or 6m² if permanently confined to that space - that's neither a huge heating source nor a huge ammonia buildup - the 50cm x 50 cm cages my dad used when I was young are long gone...
Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: David Pilling on January 06, 2023, 12:48:57 PM
The thing about rabbits is fur... as critters get smaller there comes a point where fur is no longer a winning strategy for retaining warmth, so they become naked.
Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: Bern on January 06, 2023, 01:24:01 PM
Does anyone from the PBS have working terriers or other dogs that they use to control their rodent problems?  Most people keep their dogs as pets and they no longer use them for their pest control abilities.

Here is some information about a group in New York City that takes their canine companions into the streets and alleys at night to catch rats.

"The Ryder's Alley Trencher-fed Society, more commonly known as R.A.T.S., is a group of vigilante pups and their devoted owners who venture out into the dark New York City streets for the sole purpose of tracking and killing pesky rodents."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jL0x5oBFC1w

Pretty amazing!
Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: janemcgary on January 06, 2023, 02:24:04 PM
To Bern's question about dogs and rodent control: I raised, trained, and showed Alaskan Malamute dogs for about 40 years, and would have one now if my knees still allowed me to run. In interior Alaska it was fun to watch them hunt voles under the snow, and they adapted the same technique (high pounce, stunning landing, quick dig) in soil after we moved to Oregon. I had a couple of females I could leave loose at night (fenced 10 acres), and they kept all the deer away but were cautious about the elk. They regularly caught rabbits, chipmunks (OK, cute, but pests to pots), field mice, even "mountain beavers" (Oplodontia), pack rats, rats, and moles, though they did not eat the moles, which apparently are unpalatable even to a dog. Coyotes and raccoons were chased away. They did not kill snakes, but they liked to roll on them for the nasty odor. This is, of course, an unspecialized working dog selected for survival!
Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: Bern on January 06, 2023, 05:25:09 PM
Hey Jane, that's quite a story about your Alaskan Malamutes. I bet you have many interesting stories about your adventures living in the interior of Alaska. Your relocation to Oregon must have seemed at first tropical by comparison. And thanks for the mention of "mountain beavers," Aplodontia rufa. I had never heard of them before. Here's a photo of one for folks to see.

mountainbeaver.jpg 

"Mountain beavers are gray or brown, but their fur can range from slightly more reddish to more blackish depending on subspecies, with a light patch under each ear. The animals have distinctively short tails. Adults weigh about 500–900 g (18–32 oz), with a few specimens topping 1,000 g (35 oz). Total length is about 30–50 cm (12–20 in), with a tail length of 1–4 cm (0.39–1.57 in). Their superficial similarity with true beavers reflects only their relatively large size (for rodents), strong odor, preference for living in extremely watery / moist habitats, and propensity to consume tree seedlings as food. Mountain beavers do not fell adult trees (though such trees may be killed by "girdling (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Girdling)"), build dams, live in lodges, or communicate by tail slappings. They are predominantly nocturnal in above ground activities.[6] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mountain_beaver#cite_note-7) They are known to climb trees a few meters to acquire food in the form of branches and leaves, but otherwise their diet consists mostly of ferns, especially species that are toxic to other animals."  [From Wikipedia]
Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: MarkMazer on January 07, 2023, 07:34:39 AM
Quote from: Bern on January 06, 2023, 01:24:01 PMother dogs that they use to control their rodent problems? 
My daughter's Ibizan (a blazingly fast sighthound) keeps her yard and veggie garden free from rabbits and our Australian terrier would often catch and dispatch garter snakes and chipmunks in the CT rock gardens. The giant schnauzers prefer to hunt two-legged rodents.
Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: Diane Whitehead on January 07, 2023, 11:07:58 AM
Quote from: Judy Glattstein on January 05, 2023, 03:26:57 PMI think I remember reading something about keeping rabbits - or was it chickens? - under the greenhouse benches 
The person who did it had ripe tomatoes all winter. It worked well with chickens, but when she tried putting some sheep in, they left as it was too hot for them. I can't remember the name of the book.  I think she copied  Solviva.

I was inspired when I first read it but then realized that it would only work on the east coast of North America, where they get sun in the winter.  Here on the west coast, we seldom see the sun in winter, and if it is out, it is hiding behind tall conifers. No chance of solar heating.
Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: Bern on January 10, 2023, 01:57:03 PM
California is getting plastered by a major storm off the Pacific Ocean.  This is the second back-to-back "Atmospheric River" event to hit them. There is torrential rain, widespread flooding, major wind damage, coastal flooding, and lots of snow in the mountains.  I spoke with a woman at a Northern California nursery supply today and she said that the roads going into Oregon were closed due to flooding.  There will be a lot of negative impacts on agriculture and, of course, greenhouses.

CalFloods.jpg
Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: Robert_Parks on January 10, 2023, 05:32:22 PM
Quote from: Bern on January 10, 2023, 01:57:03 PMCalifornia is getting plastered by a major storm off the Pacific Ocean.  This is the second back-to-back "Atmospheric River" event to hit them. There is torrential rain, widespread flooding, major wind damage, coastal flooding, and lots of snow in the mountains.  I spoke with a woman at a Northern California nursery supply today and she said that the roads going into Oregon were closed due to flooding.  There will be a lot of negative impacts on agriculture and, of course, greenhouse
Episodes of torrential rain, with hail, upwards of 12 inches (30cm) of rain in the last couple weeks, one storm dropped about 7"/18cm in 24 hours. Last night/today was only 3 inches/8cm.

Generally the outdoor plants are fine, and the greenhouse is fine (kit with sheet polycarbonate). Garden projects are on hold, as the gound is slopping wet.
Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: Bern on January 11, 2023, 03:44:34 PM
Some areas in Sacramento really took a beating. The rain saturated the soil and then strong winds knocked down huge trees on houses.

Storm2.jpg

Storm1.jpg
Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: Arnold on January 13, 2023, 08:06:43 AM
Here's an idea that showed up on my You tube feed.  Doesn't seem like it make enough heat for me in northern USA.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z2LPD8vDcgg
Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: David Pilling on January 13, 2023, 10:08:11 AM
Arnold - depends on the size of your greenhouse, how cold it is, and how big a tub of fat you have.

Reminds me that instead of putting food into rabbits etc you could just burn the food and release its maximum calorific value.

That chap burns vegetable shortening, in England that might be rendered as "margarine". Up North lard maybe.
Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: Martin Bohnet on January 14, 2023, 07:08:03 AM
Quote from: David Pilling on January 13, 2023, 10:08:11 AMThat chap burns vegetable shortening, in England that might be rendered as "margarine". Up North lard maybe.
Margarine contains ~20% water, don't think that one would work as nicely. Given all the uses that particular fat in the video is advertised for, one wonders if anyone uses it for baking at all...
Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: David Pilling on January 14, 2023, 07:49:02 AM
Quote from: Martin Bohnet on January 14, 2023, 07:08:03 AMMargarine contains ~20% water,

Thanks Martin, good point. Looking at Crisco:

Soybean Oil, Fully Hydrogenated Palm Oil, Palm Oil, Mono And Diglycerides, TBHQ And Citric Acid (Antioxidants).

Probably going to be banned soon for the palm oil.

"Warning: Shortening will catch fire if overheated. Damage or serious burns may result. Do heat shortening carefully. Do reduce heat if smoking occurs. Do not leave unattended while heating. Do not refill can with hot shortening. If shortening catches fire: Do turn off heat. Do cover pot until cooled to room temperature to avoid reignition. Do not carry pot until cool. Do not put water on hot or flaming shortening."

Like baking with gasoline.

In the UK 'Trex' would be an equivalent and it is not particularly common.
Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: Arnold on January 14, 2023, 12:08:41 PM
I think that these oils will hopefully disappear as the tragedy of oil palm cultivation become more well known.

Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: Martin Bohnet on January 14, 2023, 08:42:59 PM
Quote from: Arnold on January 14, 2023, 12:08:41 PMI think that these oils will hopefully disappear as the tragedy of oil palm cultivation become more well known.


As long as follow-up costs are not part of the pricing? forget it. Changing the world on customer guilt alone is a tricky thing - see all those conventionally produced eggs hidden away in secondary products when people started to mind the horrors of laying battery life.
Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: David Pilling on January 15, 2023, 04:15:50 AM
Quote from: Martin Bohnet on January 14, 2023, 08:42:59 PMAs long as follow-up costs are not part of the pricing?

"Malaysia said on Thursday it could stop exporting palm oil to the European Union in response to a new EU law aimed at protecting forests by strictly regulating sale of the product."

however this is about use in fuel oil:

"EU demand for palm oil was expected to decline significantly over the next 10 years even before the new law was agreed to. In 2018, an EU renewable-energy directive required the phasing out of palm-based transportation fuels by 2030"

My experience is that supermarkets boast of removing palm oil from products these days. One of the more ethical ones has a web page on its palm oil coming from sustainable sources. So  use is not about to vanish.

https://corporate.marksandspencer.com/sustainability/reports-quick-reads/our-stance-palm-oil

As to eggs, may say "free range" on the box, but at the moment there are strict rules to keep chickens indoors to avoid bird flu.


Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: janemcgary on January 15, 2023, 02:20:26 PM
I don't buy palm oil-containing products, and I support the Rainforest Trust's projects, but it's necessary for people in south and southeast Asia to have cooking oil, so growing it should not be banned. Before someone says people eat too many fats, consider that some fat is necessary for general health, especially in young children; and cooking quickly in oil uses much less fuel than some other methods -- hence the wok.
Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: Bern on January 22, 2023, 09:59:44 AM
Dr. Phil Zimbardo is a psychologist at Stanford University and he has been vocal about boys failing socially and disappearing into a virtual void on their computers.  He's addressed these issues in his TED Talks and in a recent book. Here's a quote from his book on an estimate about the time people are spending playing video games online. 

"In addition, Jane McGonigal, director of game research and development at the Institute for the Future in Palo Alto, California, estimates that people spend a collective 3 billion hours playing video games each week!  She predicts that the average young person will spend 10,000 hours gaming by the time they reach age twenty-one.  To put this figure in context, it takes the average university student half that time – 4800 hours – to earn a bachelor's degree." Phil Zimbardo and Nikita Coulomb; Man Interrupted; 2016; pages 19 – 20; paragraph 1.

These estimates are astonishing and if true, alarming.

Surfing plant and gardening websites is a much healthier pastime.

Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: David Pilling on January 22, 2023, 07:01:40 PM
Quote from: Bern on January 22, 2023, 09:59:44 AMthe average young person will spend 10,000 hours gaming by the time they reach age twenty-one

Don't they say that it takes 10K hours to become good at anything.

In my day games were Pac-Man and Space Invaders. People did not like me staring at a screen and ignoring them. I could make pocket money writing games. I lost interest about the time it became apparent I could not compete in the games market. I applied for a job with a company who wrote games, I was shown a darkened room full of young men staring at screens and wearing headphones. Like battery chickens but programmers. How I wished I could join them, but I was not close to getting a job there.

Today games are totally different, a market as big as movies, and development budgets of the same order. They have a wide market, not just young lads. People go to Uni to learn how to write games, or more likely bits of games.

I feel gardening is a healthy pastime - physical effort is involved. They say it is good for mental health and it sort of feels that way. A bit surprising because there can be a lot of frustration.

I'm not so sure it is always a social thing - maybe if you belong to a gardening club or garden on allotments. People always flee when I approach bearing excess produce.

Another horrifying statistic would be how much energy is consumed by gaming computers. Top line hardware in computers is for gamers. Machines I would not care to buy because of the cost.

To give you a start

"Gaming PCs use an average of 1,400 kWh per year, equal to having three refrigerators running all the time or the amount of energy that six standard computers would use."

But then again, you could analyse any field of activity and label it harmful and bad for the planet.
Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: janemcgary on January 23, 2023, 12:21:42 PM
I've even encountered claims that gardening is bad for the planet because it introduces plants that aren't "native." A short-term view that ignores glaciations, global warm periods, and continental drift, not to mention the activities of insects and birds. Just read that 1/3 of carbon emissions at present result from agriculture, though a lot of that is from livestock. I'm not giving up my exotic plants, or my dual-fuel kitchen range (there's a movement to ban those, but I can't imagine cooking on a burner without a visible indication of its heat), but may buy an EV soon. Guilty every time the gas furnace fires up. My friends know what else I'm guilty over. At least we're on hydroelectric here. Shocking statistics about gaming computers, David, and we read that crypto mining is worse.
Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: David Pilling on January 24, 2023, 04:36:33 AM
Many sins of gardening, using peat, all those chemicals. When they want to cheer us up, the BBC show clips from old editions of "Gardeners' World", where avuncular Percy Thrower discusses chemical warfare.

The typical garden shed is full of ancient tins and bottles of chemicals now illegal. Just waiting for  men in hazmat suits and a crew from Channel 9 to show up and expose the horror.

To a good approximation, peat is gone and so are chemicals, with the demise of the neonicotinoids like Provado.

<virtue signalling>I got through 2022 with no peat and no chemicals, best ever crop of tomatoes and they sure tasted better. Thank you young people for showing me how evil I was.</>

Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: Martin Bohnet on January 24, 2023, 01:13:29 PM
Oh how I love that "all chemicals are evil" idea. Good luck gardening without DihydrogenOxide.

That said: Simulations get warmer again, seems Europe is moving towards the next westwind phase. The winter starts running out of time, days here get longer by 3 minutes per day now.
Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: MarkMazer on January 24, 2023, 01:25:53 PM
Quote from: Martin Bohnet on January 24, 2023, 01:13:29 PMwinter starts running out of time
Meanwhile in the UK:  https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2023/01/23/national-grid-scheme-will-do-reward-heavy-energy-users/

"Temperatures have plummeted again, Britain is becalmed by an anticyclone, and the National Grid is warning that supply is going to be tight this evening. Coal plants are being dusted down several months after they were supposed to have closed, and the National Grid is activating what it calls its Demand Flexibility Service. This means customers signed up to the scheme can earn up to £6 per kilowatt-hour saved if they agree to turn off their appliances between 5 and 6pm.
It is not hard to spot a slight issue with this offer: the more electricity you use on a normal Monday, the easier it will be for you to cash in today. As with so many green subsidies, it perversely rewards the well-off at the expense of the poor. "
Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: Martin Bohnet on January 24, 2023, 10:01:55 PM
really? Forecast for London says last frost today, and 16 days without ahead and Edinburgh seems even warmer - I'm aware that currently any prediction past 5 days is extremely speculative while the stratosphere may or may not reach a major warming, but still that looks pretty harmless in terms of cold.
Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: David Pilling on January 25, 2023, 03:57:16 AM
Surprising they have run the power saving scheme. Colder than average but nothing like as bad as before Christmas. Has not been much wind though. There is a web site:
https://grid.iamkate.com/
where you can see how UK's energy is being produced in real time. 26% Wind at the moment.

I wonder if they have run the scheme because they can, have it set up, and want to see if it works. Leave it much longer and they will run out of justification. It will be interesting for them to see what people can turn off happily.

I have not been taking part, because you need to have a smart meter and (qv) I'm not having one until a gang of big blokes with a legal notice appear at the door, because it lets a person behind a computer turn off your power on a whim.

It would make sense to have smart devices, so your freezer would not operate during the couple of hours of highest demand or whatever.

Rather than central control they could with smart meters just adjust the energy cost minute by minute and let you and your devices work it out.

My energy is supplied by Al Gore backed Octopus, when I first went on their website I was impressed that it told me to run my laptop off its battery because it was a time of heavy load on the grid. Slightly less impressed that it says that every time, regardless of the time of day or night.

Smart meters, central control... and I will be buying another, bigger, generator. I've seen my neighbours get smart meters and be without power for (in one case) days.

Today's papers are asking "do you have a device made in China spying on you".


Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: Bern on January 26, 2023, 09:55:50 AM
Quote from: David Pilling on January 25, 2023, 03:57:16 AMSmart meters, central control... and I will be buying another, bigger, generator. I've seen my neighbours get smart meters and be without power for (in one case) days.

I can't imagine having a smart meter if you have to have crucial medical devices that run on electricity. It would be a disaster if big brother shut off your electricity for your home dialysis machine or your cpap.  A back-up generator would be essential in these circumstances. 

The same is true if you work from home via computer all day.  You're out-of-luck if they shut down your modem's power. 
Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: Bern on February 02, 2023, 03:22:24 PM
I recently read this book and it had some very interesting topics from which to quote.

The Moral Sense; James Q Wilson; The Free Press; 1993

"A psychopath is not a lunatic suffering from disabling delusions or an obviously neurotic person displaying phobias and anxieties; rather, he or she is an outwardly normal person with an apparently logical mind who happens to be an emotional cipher. Hiding behind what Hervey Cleckley called the "mask of sanity," the psychopath is the extreme case of the nonsocial personality, someone for whom the ordinary emotions of life have no meaning. Psychopaths lie without compunction, injure without remorse, and cheat with little fear of detection. Wholly self-centered and unaware of the emotional needs of others, they are, in the fullest sense of the term, unsocial. They can mimic feelings without experiencing them. If man were simply the pure calculator (self-interested, utility maximizer) that some economists and game theories imagine, this is what he would be (a psychopath.)" Page 107

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

That economists produce economic models that regard all people as hedonic calculators is telling.  When I listen to the news these days, I never hear the presenters refer to people as citizens anymore, only as consumers.

Probably there are very few hedonic calculators who garden.
Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: David Pilling on February 02, 2023, 07:12:32 PM
"Traditional economics assumes that people are rational, but compelling research in the field of behavioral science says ... not so much. Behavioral economics is the study of decision-making and, human decision-making is, many times, very irrational."

 
Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: Bern on February 03, 2023, 01:13:17 PM
Another book by James Q. Wilson and coauthored with Richard J. Herrnstein had a few related quotes and I include them below. 

Crime and Human Nature; James Q. Wilson and Richard J. Herrnstein; Simon and Schuster; 1985

"This view of man as a self-interested rational calculator pervades the first great modern treatise on crime and punishment, Dei Delitti e delle Pene, by the Italian Cesare Beccaria, published in 1764." Page 515.

"A society made up of persons who are purely hedonic calculators is no society at all." Page 528.

Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: David Pilling on February 03, 2023, 04:48:19 PM
If criminals were rational, why would they get caught. Don't do the crime if you can't do the time. But rational self interest and you'd factor in being caught which would make a lot of things un-economic.
Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: David Pilling on February 05, 2023, 07:20:49 AM
Quote from: David Pilling on February 03, 2023, 04:48:19 PMyou'd factor in being caught which would make a lot of things un-economic.

Professional criminals are said to accept being caught as part of the cost of being in business. So amateur criminals have other motives.

Adam Smith "It is not from the benevolence (kindness) of the butcher, the brewer, or the baker that we expect our dinner, but from their regard to their own interest."

Keynes "Capitalism is the extraordinary belief that the nastiest of men for the nastiest of motives will somehow work for the benefit of all."

Thatcher " 'I am homeless, the Government must house me!' and so they are casting their problems on society and who is society? There is no such thing! There are individual men and women and there are families and no government can do anything except through people and people look to themselves first."

Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: Bern on February 07, 2023, 05:48:20 PM
Good points all. There are many people with good quotes on this topic. Here are a few more from Wilson and Herrnstein.

The mind is under the influence of both pleasure and pain, but unlike in Hobbes and Bentham, matters cannot be left there. The mind must be taught to rule the body so as to shun immediate pleasures that lead to deferred pain and accept present pains that lead in time to greater pleasures (per Aristotle.) Little in Hobbes or Bentham prepares us for how the mind gradually acquires sovereignty over the body by coming to understand the circumstances in which pain ought to be preferred to pleasure. That philosophy should have difficulty with this problem is easily understood, since men so often fail to achieve the mind's sovereignty over the body's preferences. But to fail to note that mature humans differ from animals in part precisely because they need not be governed wholly by immediate pleasures and pains is to ignore the psychological process that is central to learning not to offend. Page 224

Jean Jacques Rousseau, the eighteenth-century French philosopher, had read Hobbes and described his views as "pernicious," especially insofar as Hobbes viewed man as naturally wicked (or naturally scheming, which to Rousseau was much the same thing). Rousseau seized on the failure of Hobbes to consider compassion or sympathy as a natural sentiment. Page 519. 

But Rousseau's view of man, especially man-as-child was hopelessly romantic. One wonders what Rousseau would have done with willful children, or hyperactive ones, or those that rarely repay parental attention with spontaneous smiles and quiet nights. He sent his own children (all 5 of them!) to a foundling home. Page 520.

Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: janemcgary on February 08, 2023, 03:31:35 PM
The anti-hedonistic remarks reminded me of a Chinese restaurant my friends and I frequented as undergraduates. It handed out bummer fortune cookies. Once I got, "A moment of pleasure, a lifetime of sorrow." I expect I was reading the Stoics around then, and much annoyed by them. These days, however, ataraxia looks pretty good. (Would that be a good species epithet for a plant that needs no care?)
Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: Bern on February 08, 2023, 05:23:41 PM
Apatheia vs Ataraxia: what's the difference?

https://howtobeastoic.wordpress.com/2015/12/26/apatheia-vs-ataraxia-whats-the-difference/

I'll take ataraxia also; there's much to vex the mind these days. 
Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: Bern on February 09, 2023, 09:10:19 AM
Quote from: janemcgary on February 08, 2023, 03:31:35 PMThese days, however, ataraxia looks pretty good. (Would that be a good species epithet for a plant that needs no care?)


If ataxia was a plant species, and you could make a tea from its leaves, and drinking the tea would evoke a state of ataxia in you, would you drink it?
Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: Bern on February 09, 2023, 09:12:08 AM
Quote from: David Pilling on February 05, 2023, 07:20:49 AMKeynes "Capitalism is the extraordinary belief that the nastiest of men for the nastiest of motives will somehow work for the benefit of all."

Is Keynes a good example of an hedonic calculator?

"A society made up of persons who are purely hedonic calculators is no society at all."
Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: David Pilling on February 09, 2023, 09:42:50 AM
Quote from: Bern on February 09, 2023, 09:12:08 AMIs Keynes a good example of an hedonic calculator?

I am out of my depth. Google tells me Keynes "...recognized the limits to the rational use of the hedonic calculus in economic decisions." Wow there's a hedonic calculus, feed in a chocolate cup cake, get out a number.

Quote from: Bern on February 08, 2023, 05:23:41 PMthere's much to vex the mind these days. 

Problem is that the media are algorithmically driven to maximise "engagement". Write 10 stories, see which one gets the most view/comments/reaction etc. and then repeat that one only more so. It is not a new thing, newspapers have done it for years. Just that computers make it easier and more likely.

Perhaps I could save the PBS forum by starting a "round up" thread - since that subject causes the most upset on the list.



Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: Bern on February 09, 2023, 10:35:27 AM
Quote from: David Pilling on February 09, 2023, 09:42:50 AMProblem is that the media are algorithmically driven to maximise "engagement". Write 10 stories, see which one gets the most view/comments/reaction etc. and then repeat that one only more so. It is not a new thing, newspapers have done it for years. Just that computers make it easier and more likely.

Goebbels did the same thing in Germany, but without computers to help him.  One of his rules was "never allow the public to cool off." So repeating stories is a tactic to keep you vexed. And keeping you vexed is likely to keep you engaged.  And keeping you engaged gives the media better ratings and more advertising revenue.

You've got to know when its time to switch off the TV.
Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: Bern on February 09, 2023, 01:13:06 PM
Quote from: David Pilling on February 05, 2023, 07:20:49 AMKeynes "Capitalism is the extraordinary belief that the nastiest of men for the nastiest of motives will somehow work for the benefit of all."

"The best way to rob a bank is to own one." William Crawford, Commissioner of the California Commission on Savings and Loans, introducing his testimony to the U.S. House of Representatives. 1988

"Oops!" John Maynard Keynes

"A control fraud is a company run by a criminal who uses it as a weapon and a shield to defraud others and makes it difficult to detect and punish the fraud. Fraud is theft by deception: one creates and exploits trust to cheat others. Fraud erodes trust. Trust is vital to making markets, societies, polities, and making relationships work, so fraud is particularly pernicious." William K. Black

The Best Way to Rob a Bank is to Own One: How Corporate Executives and Politicians Looted the S&L Industry by William K. Black

"Recounting the investigations he conducted as Director of Litigation for the Federal Home Loan Bank Board, William K. Black fully reveals how Charles Keating and hundreds of other S&L owners took advantage of a weak regulatory environment to perpetrate accounting fraud on a massive scale. He also authoritatively links the S&L crash to the business failures of 2008 and beyond, showing how CEOs then and now are using the same tactics to defeat regulatory restraints and commit the same types of destructive fraud. Black uses the latest advances in criminology and economics to develop a theory of why "control fraud"—looting a company for personal profit—tends to occur in waves that make financial markets deeply inefficient."

I read this book and it was very worthwhile; I recommend it to folks who have the interest and time.







Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: Bern on February 09, 2023, 06:00:05 PM
Quote from: David Pilling on February 09, 2023, 09:42:50 AMKeynes "...recognized the limits to the rational use of the hedonic calculus in economic decisions." Wow there's a hedonic calculus, feed in a chocolate cup cake, get out a number.

It seems that there is a perennially recurring lie occurring throughout the ages that private vice and public virtue are compatible. This appears to be one of the "big lies" that is continually repeated so that a lot of people believe it even though the evidence conclusively refutes the premise.

It seems that hedonic calculators must use some kind of hedonic calculus.  I'm skeptical about its degree of rationality though.

Chocolate cup cakes, in moderation, are more pleasant and are almost certainly less destructive.
Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: David Pilling on February 10, 2023, 04:07:25 AM
In the 2008 episode, those controlling the banks (management) robbed the shareholders. Technically shareholders own the profit, not the business.

Effectively there are not that many banks in the UK, figures from the USA for many 1000s of banks closing in the great depression are impressing.

Politicians often fall victim to errors in their private life reflecting on their public career. The voters do not seem to believe the two can be separated.

In general, can people do good as well as bad (?). I'd say so. Today the trend is to find the worst thing historical figures ever did (by current standards) and use that to cancel them.

By the standards of the future we're all sinners of the worst kind.

When I was a lad, there was a whole fur coat thing. For elderly ladies it was a status symbol. For department stores it was a business. Today it does not exist. All those expensive coats have vanished. Even in photos of the past.

Is it fashion, or is there progress to a kinder world.

Are they sat there in the past condemning people of the future.
 
Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: Bern on February 12, 2023, 04:07:04 PM
Quote from: David Pilling on February 10, 2023, 04:07:25 AMIn general, can people do good as well as bad (?). I'd say so. Today the trend is to find the worst thing historical figures ever did (by current standards) and use that to cancel them.

Exactly. And with this quote it's time to begin to wrap up Professors Wilson and Herrnstein and seque into other topics.  Crime and Human Nature surveyed a vast literature of the science of criminology. Crime has been studied with regard to ethnicity, intelligence, income, employment, educational attainment, upbringing, body size in men, even facial features, as well as many other parameters. In spite of everything known about what causes crime and criminals, they report this amazing fact.

"During the 1960s, one neighborhood in San Francisco had the lowest income, the highest unemployment rate, the highest proportion of families with incomes under $4000 per year, the least educational attainment, the highest tuberculosis rate, and the highest proportion of substandard housing of any area of the city. The neighborhood was called Chinatown. Yet in 1965, there were only five persons of Chinese ancestry committed to prison in the entire state of California." Page 473.

My how things have changed since 1965. What has happened to cause the difference?  The Vietnam war, the 1960s social upheaval, the 24 hour news cycle, managed inflation, massive legal and illegal immigration, money pursued as the supreme good, internecine politics? Probably these and many more factors. But it demonstrates that people living under challenging conditions can live good and decent lives, at least as measured by staying out of jail.

Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: David Pilling on February 12, 2023, 07:20:37 PM
A bit bleak, but I wonder if Russia will have less crime after the war. Prisoners are being sent to the front because they don't matter.
Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: Lee Poulsen on February 13, 2023, 06:03:52 PM
Quote from: David Pilling on January 22, 2023, 07:01:40 PMI feel gardening is a healthy pastime - physical effort is involved. They say it is good for mental health and it sort of feels that way. A bit surprising because there can be a lot of frustration.

I'm not so sure it is always a social thing - maybe if you belong to a gardening club or garden on allotments. People always flee when I approach bearing excess produce.
It's probably the Mycobacterium vaccae in the soil that is infecting us.

Dirt Can Make You Happy (https://www.hortmag.com/featured/dirt-can-make-you-happy)

How to Get High on Soil (https://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2012/01/how-to-get-high-on-soil/251935/)

ChatGPT did a better job at giving a summary of it than it did with Cearanthes:

QuoteMycobacterium vaccae is a type of soil-dwelling bacterium that has been found to have a positive effect on human health. The bacterium has been found to activate immune cells in the body and increase levels of certain neurotransmitters in the brain, such as serotonin and dopamine, which are associated with improved mood and cognitive function.

Studies have shown that exposure to Mycobacterium vaccae can help to reduce symptoms of conditions such as asthma, allergies, and inflammatory bowel disease. Additionally, research has suggested that Mycobacterium vaccae may help to improve learning and memory, as well as reducing anxiety and depression.

It's important to note that Mycobacterium vaccae is not a cure for any medical conditions, and more research is needed to fully understand its effects on human health. However, the evidence so far suggests that exposure to the bacterium can have a positive impact on both physical and mental health.
Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: Arnold on February 13, 2023, 06:47:14 PM
So, all those years of me playing in the dirt as a kid had it benefits.
Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: Bern on February 15, 2023, 03:00:44 PM
Quote from: David Pilling on February 12, 2023, 07:20:37 PMA bit bleak,

Professors Wilson and Herrnstein end on a more hopeful note.  After an exhaustive review of criminology and human nature, they have the following to say about affirming society.

"In the United States, a society whose national government was founded on the understanding that it would take human nature pretty much as it was, relying in large measure on the competitive pursuit of self-interest and individual rights to protect freedom and forswearing the traditional role of government which was, beginning with the ancients, to develop virtue in its citizens." Page 528.

"But we (Wilson and Herrnstein) are also reaffirming the moral order of society and reminding people of what constitutes right conduct, in hopes that this reaffirmation and reminder will help people, especially in families, teach each other about virtue." Page 528.

"A society made up of persons who are purely hedonic calculators is no society at all." Page 528.

I had not realized until reading this book that the US national government had forsworn the role of developing virtue in its citizens, but it is clearly apparent these days, especially with the unremitting mass shootings.  The only government that I can think of that might try to inculcate virtue in its citizens today is Japan.

So virtue, right conduct, and the moral order are our best hopes for a just and decent society.  Sounds like a plan to me, even if we're on our own implementing it.
Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: David Pilling on February 15, 2023, 06:16:58 PM
Quote from: Bern on February 15, 2023, 03:00:44 PMThe only government that I can think of that might try to inculcate virtue in its citizens today is Japan.

Kidding... Governments micro-manage their citizens behaviour. I pay my taxes to look after my fellow citizens. I do not make excessive noise. I behave in a civil way to other people. I do not have a vacuum cleaner that is too powerful. I drive on the left hand size of the road... All this virtue, all demanded by the government on pain of imprisonment.
Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: Bern on February 17, 2023, 12:02:54 PM
Quote from: David Pilling on February 15, 2023, 06:16:58 PMKidding... Governments micro-manage their citizens behaviour. I pay my taxes to look after my fellow citizens. I do not make excessive noise. I behave in a civil way to other people. I do not have a vacuum cleaner that is too powerful. I drive on the left hand size of the road... All this virtue, all demanded by the government on pain of imprisonment.

David, I think you might be channeling Lysander Spooner from The Constitution of No Authority IV, written around 1870.  And my apologies if this is not the case.

"It is true that the theory of our Constitution is, that all taxes are paid voluntarily; that our government is a mutual insurance company, voluntarily entered into by the people with each other; that each man makes a free and purely voluntary contract with all others who are parties to the Constitution, to pay so much money for so much protection, the same as he does with any other insurance company; and that he is just as free not to be protected, and not to pay any tax, as he is to pay a tax, and be protected.

But this theory of our government is wholly different from the practical fact. The fact is that the government, like a highwayman, says to a man: Your money, or your life. And many, if not most, taxes are paid under the compulsion of that threat.

The government does not, indeed, waylay a man in a lonely place, spring upon him from the road side, and, holding a pistol to his head, proceed to rifle his pockets. But the robbery is none the less a robbery on that account; and it is far more dastardly and shameful.

The highwayman takes solely upon himself the responsibility, danger, and crime of his own act. He does not pretend that he has any rightful claim to your money, or that he intends to use it for your own benefit. He does not pretend to be anything but a robber. He has not acquired impudence enough to profess to be merely a "protector," and that he takes men's money against their will, merely to enable him to "protect" those infatuated travellers, who feel perfectly able to protect themselves, or do not appreciate his peculiar system of protection. He is too sensible a man to make such professions as these. Furthermore, having taken your money, he leaves you, as you wish him to do. He does not persist in following you on the road, against your will; assuming to be your rightful "sovereign," on account of the "protection" he affords you. He does not keep "protecting" you, by commanding you to bow down and serve him; by requiring you to do this, and forbidding you to do that; by robbing you of more money as often as he finds it for his interest or pleasure to do so; and by branding you as a rebel, a traitor, and an enemy to your country, and shooting you down without mercy, if you dispute his authority, or resist his demands. He is too much of a gentleman to be guilty of such impostures, and insults, and villanies as these. In short, he does not, in addition to robbing you, attempt to make you either his dupe or his slave.

The proceedings of those robbers, who call themselves "the government," are directly the opposite of these of the single highwayman."
Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: David Pilling on February 17, 2023, 01:58:54 PM
Quote from: Bern on February 17, 2023, 12:02:54 PMThe proceedings of those robbers, who call themselves "the government," are directly the opposite of these of the single highwayman."

Nicely put. As far as I know we don't have quite as big a tradition of distrusting the government here (in England), given the way things are going we may soon develop one  :)
Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: Bern on February 20, 2023, 09:57:15 AM
A massive snowstorm will blanket most of the continental US this Wednesday.  Meanwhile, here in the mid-Atlantic, despite an early false alarm for a harsh winter, it has been unusually warm instead. Temps here this Thursday are predicted to be 81F (21C).  Very strange for this time of year.

Feb_22_23_Snowstorm.jpg
Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: David Pilling on February 20, 2023, 02:00:48 PM
Good luck to those in the path of the snow.

This thread has been interesting from the point of view of writing down what was expected and comparing with what happened.

The lights did not go out in the UK.
Gas prices in Europe are now as low as 18 months ago.
It's been a warm Winter in Europe.
Gas reserves at a record high for the time of year.
The German ambassador to the UK was boasting on Twitter this week that Germany is now using no Russian oil, coal or gas.

But... I have been out searching for tomatoes today. The weather in Spain and Morocco has been bad. There are none to be had. Foolishly I did not freeze the surplus crop I had last year. We had a similar situation a few years back, so can't really blame the shortage on greenhouses not being heated.

Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: Bern on February 23, 2023, 09:55:01 AM
Quote from: David Pilling on February 20, 2023, 02:00:48 PMThis thread has been interesting from the point of view of writing down what was expected and comparing with what happened.

Exactly.  What had promised to be a very cold winter here has turned out to be one of the warmest on record. Being mindful that we are only two thirds of the way through official winter and that things going forward could change, but the trend seems to indicate that Spring has already arrived.

Weather 2_23_23.jpg 

Meanwhile, much of the rest of the USA is experiencing a massive snowstorm.  Many people at the park this morning were wearing shorts and t-shirts.
Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: Martin Bohnet on February 25, 2023, 01:34:10 AM
I hate when people call it a warm winter - I don't care for statistics, its single anomalies that kill plants, and in that aspect 22/23 was already far worse than 21/22.
Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: Bern on February 27, 2023, 09:25:44 AM
It's going to be a wild week of winter weather for the folks living in the Pacific Northwest and also for large parts of California. It looks like there will be two major winter storms hitting the area this week.  Here's what the storm on Tuesday will look like. 

PNW_2_27_23.jpg
Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: Leo on March 02, 2023, 03:32:48 PM
This winter Metro Phoenix has seen typical nighttime lows, but our daytime highs have been much lower than normal. By early February it's usually warm enough to garden without a shirt. It's still too chilly for that. In the late 1980s there was a year when it was already 100 F / 38C the first week of March. It only got hotter.
Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: Bern on March 04, 2023, 06:12:00 AM
In Britain, 'warm hubs' emerge to beat soaring energy costs (AP News 3/4/23)

STRATFORD-UPON-AVON, England (AP) — On a blustery late-winter day in Shakespeare's birthplace, the foyer of the Other Place theater is a cozy refuge. Visitors are having meetings over coffee, checking emails, writing poetry, learning to sew.

Warm hubs have sprouted across Britain by the thousands this winter as soaring food and energy prices drive millions to turn down the thermostat or skimp on hot meals. Research by the opposition Labour Party counted almost 13,000 such hubs, funded by a mix of charities, community groups and the government and nestled in libraries, churches, community centers and even a tearoom at King Charles III's Highgrove country estate.

Wendy Freeman, an artist, writer and seventh-generation Stratfordian, heard about the RSC's warm hub from a friend. She lives in "a tiny house with no central heating" and relies on a coal fire for warmth. Like many, she has cut back in response to the cost-of-living crisis driven by the highest inflation since the 1980s.

"You just adapt," said Freeman, 69, who was using the center as a warm, quiet place to work on a poem. "Little things, like putting less water in the kettle. I was brought up with 'save the pennies, and the pounds will look after themselves.' I always cook from scratch and eat what's in season.

"But it's nice to go somewhere warm," she added.

The U.K.'s annual inflation rate was just above 10% in January, with food prices up almost 17% over the year. Some 62% of adults are using less natural gas or electricity to save money, according to the Office for National Statistics. A quarter of households regularly run out of money for essentials, pollster Survation found.  Though oil and natural gas prices have fallen from last year's peaks, the average British household energy bill is still double what it was a year ago. Costs for many are due to rise by another 20% on April 1 when a government-set price cap goes up.

Anne Bolger, a retired math teacher, happened across the warm hub during a walk one day and has come back every week since. She drops in to check emails, prep for math tutoring or do a jigsaw puzzle.

"Today's the day that I'm appreciating it, because home is freezing," she said.

That's just what organizers want to hear. They say warm hubs exist to ease loneliness as well as energy poverty.

Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: David Pilling on March 04, 2023, 02:02:35 PM
How things change, yesterday keep six feet apart guys, today huddle together for warmth.

Energy prices are considerable.

News is that UK government will continue to subsidise energy beyond April - this is because prices have not been as high as they planned for, and they expect them to continue to decline. The hope is that by the start of next Winter, prices will have fallen below the level of the government fixed price.

I see that the media have started the "biggest transfer of wealth" story. We're all huddling together and seeing our savings diminish, the corollary is that someone is getting wealthier.

In the 70s oil shock it was the Middle East oil states, who eventually had to be provided with something to recycle their money on.

Does anyone remember Liz Truss, the UK prime minister who lasted 49 days. One reason the pound fell and she had to be got rid of was the amount the energy price guarantee was going to cost. Turns out it has cost nothing like as much as was thought.
Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: Bern on March 04, 2023, 02:44:50 PM
Quote from: Bern on March 04, 2023, 06:12:00 AMThe U.K.'s annual inflation rate was just above 10% in January, with food prices up almost 17% over the year. Some 62% of adults are using less natural gas or electricity to save money, according to the Office for National Statistics. A quarter of households regularly run out of money for essentials, pollster Survation found.  Though oil and natural gas prices have fallen from last year's peaks, the average British household energy bill is still double what it was a year ago. Costs for many are due to rise by another 20% on April 1 when a government-set price cap goes up.

The latest story I read about inflation in the USA was that the Federal Reserve Chairman had said it was "going sideways." I don't believe the actual published numbers anymore. My feet on the ground sense and personal observation is that it is still going up and not going sideways. I have to push back from following the news about it because it just ticks me off. 

Quote from: David Pilling on March 04, 2023, 02:02:35 PMHow things change, yesterday keep six feet apart guys, today huddle together for warmth.

Exactly!  So Uncle Sam shuts down the country and isolates everyone. Then the Federal Reserve buys $5 trillion dollars worth of bonds and the money supply explodes upward.  At the same time, they lower interest rates to where borrowing money is as close to being free as it can get. People went crazy buying up houses and bidding them up to ridiculous and record highs.  I recently spoke to a realtor in northwest Arkansas and she told me that during the height of covid, her office was seeing a record 34 offers on modest homes.  So, one part of the government says it's isolating people while another part is encouraging people to go out and mingle to buy houses and other things.  The result is inflation and it's not going sideways.  And I'm sure the covid infection and mortality numbers went up as a result of the conflicting policy decisions as well.

Quote from: David Pilling on March 04, 2023, 02:02:35 PMDoes anyone remember Liz Truss, the UK prime minister who lasted 49 days.

I wish that we could get rid of some of our elected officials as easily as it can be done in the UK.
Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: Bern on March 04, 2023, 04:41:53 PM
Quote from: Leo on March 02, 2023, 03:32:48 PMThis winter Metro Phoenix has seen typical nighttime lows, but our daytime highs have been much lower than normal. By early February it's usually warm enough to garden without a shirt. It's still too chilly for that. In the late 1980s there was a year when it was already 100 F / 38C the first week of March. It only got hotter.

Hey Leo, Do you have shade structures or shade houses in your yard in Phoenix that allows your plants to withstand the summer heat and sunlight?  Do you use a drip irrigation system to keep your plants hydrated?  I know people who grow cacti and succulents in Arizona, but none of them describe themselves as gardeners.  What kind of plants do you grow in Phoenix?

Enquiring minds want to know!

Cheers,

Bern
Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: David Pilling on March 04, 2023, 05:37:33 PM
The current UK prime minister is Rishi Sunak, who was the finance minister during the pandemic. In that job he gave tax concessions to the housing market, and subsidised eating out (something which it now transpires the experts thought would spread covid). He called it "eat out to help out", they called it "eat out to spread it about".

Anyway Rishi Sunak has promised to halve inflation in short order. He is typical of the string of opinion that says inflation is now going to decline rapidly.

Meanwhile my YouTube subscriptions is full of videos predicting a US stock market crash at any moment.

Who is right, there's only one way to find out, look at this topic in six months time.
Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: David Pilling on March 04, 2023, 05:38:18 PM
Quote from: Bern on March 04, 2023, 04:41:53 PMEnquiring minds want to know!

Enquiring minds consult the PBS wiki:

https://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki/index.php/LeoMartin
Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: Bern on March 05, 2023, 09:32:55 AM
Quote from: David Pilling on March 04, 2023, 05:38:18 PMEnquiring minds consult the PBS wiki:
Fantastic! Thanks David.

Quote from: David Pilling on March 04, 2023, 05:37:33 PMMeanwhile my YouTube subscriptions is full of videos predicting a US stock market crash at any moment.

The US stock market has been grotesquely overvalued by all normal valuation means for a very long time.  The next crash will happen, to paraphrase Ernest Hemingway on bankruptcy, gradually, then suddenly. 

Quote from: David Pilling on March 04, 2023, 05:37:33 PMAnyway Rishi Sunak has promised to halve inflation in short order. He is typical of the string of opinion that says inflation is now going to decline rapidly.

The next presidential election cycle in the US will commence in earnest shortly, even though the actual election won't take place until November 2024.  There will be pressure to engineer an economic recovery between now and then, or to say that one has occurred even if it has not.  The Rishi Sunak types will be out talking up a storm about how wonderful things are.  If the big algos smell a rat, then they'll unload and the crash will leave small investors and retirees holding the bag again.  You're right, time will tell.  I take things a day at a time now.
Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: Leo on March 05, 2023, 10:43:24 AM
Quote from: Bern on March 04, 2023, 04:41:53 PMDo you have shade structures or shade houses in your yard in Phoenix that allows your plants to withstand the summer heat and sunlight?  Do you use a drip irrigation system to keep your plants hydrated?  I know people who grow cacti and succulents in Arizona, but none of them describe themselves as gardeners.  What kind of plants do you grow in Phoenix?

Enquiring minds want to know!


Great questions... I have a patio covered with polycarbonate and shade cloth for many succulent and other plants in containers. In the ground people learn to use shrubs and trees as sun protection for smaller plants. I remind newcomer gardeners that this part of the Sonoran Desert, in comparison to many other deserts, gets colder in winter, hotter in summer, has less rain, and has rain both winter and summer. A common landscape plant here is the non-native Texas Ranger, a swarm of species and hybrids in genus Leucophyllum. We don't get enough rain to establish seedlings, but adults don't require irrigation. I permitted a lot of their seedlings, plus our native creosote bush, Larrya tridentata, to remain so I have a lot of shady spots for other things.

We average 200mm / 8 inches of rain per year, but it is highly erratic. 60% falls with thunderstorms in the summer monsoon between June and September, originating from the Sea of Cortez. The remainder falls gently with cool winter storms from the Pacific. A little snow falls about once in ten years.

I water plants in pots by hand. I have a drip system for my landscaping, and a soaking hose irrigation system for my orchard. Most of the landscape is mature enough to need very little water, so the drip is no longer on a timer. Very few irrigation system installers understand plants so I specified four zones: one for trees and shrubs, one for smaller plants that need more frequent water, one for desert plants that don't need supplemental winter water and one for desert plants that do need supplemental winter water.
Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: Bern on March 08, 2023, 03:42:58 PM
Quote from: Leo on March 05, 2023, 10:43:24 AMIn the ground people learn to use shrubs and trees as sun protection for smaller plants.

Hey Leo, Do you have any Palo Verde trees Parkinsonia florida or Parkinsonia aculeata on your property?  Do they get tall enough and have sufficient branches and leaves to provide shade for other plants in the summer?  They are deciduous, so they would have less sun protection in the winter, but maybe that is a good thing for some of your winter growers.  I've always liked this tree and I have seen some very nice ones growing in Tucson. The green trunk and branches are very striking on some specimens.  Some of the very small, hard grown Palo Verde trees in nature look like well grown bonsai subjects.  And do mesembs grow well for you in Phoenix? 
Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: Leo on March 09, 2023, 12:05:22 AM

Quote from: Bern on 3/8/2023, 3:42:58 PM Hey Leo, Do you have any Palo Verde trees Parkinsonia florida or Parkinsonia aculeata on your property?  Do they get tall enough and have sufficient branches and leaves to provide shade for other plants in the summer? And do mesembs grow well for you in Phoenix?

Hi Bern, I'm going to ignore name changes and use old tree names for the species known colloquially as "palo verde" = Spanish for "green branch." Cercidium floridum and C. microphyllum are native here. They are slow growing and require only occasional thinning of lower branches as they die. Parkinsonia aculeata is a Mexican species but widespread here in landscaping. Unfortunately it is producing hybrid swarms with the natives, extending great distances from cities.

I say unfortunately because aculeata seedlings are prolific enough to be weedy, grow extremely fast, have weak wood that breaks easily in our summer storms, have numerous, large and very sharp thorns lacking in our native species, and are highly susceptible to attack by our two species of giant Palo Verde boring beetles. Root damage from these grubs causes them to blow over in storms. They are not long-lived. They do have larger and more beautiful flowers than our natives, produced sporadically all summer, whereas our natives flower once in spring. Aculeata wood has a peculiar skunky smell.

Aculeata passes all these undesirable traits to its hybrids, though sometimes the thorns are not inherited. When sawing a tree that looks exactly like one of our natives but grows too fast, the smell reveals its hybrid origin.


The native trees on my property have all died of old age since I bought it in 1986. The one P. aculeata blew over in a storm. I have allowed seedlings looking like our natives to grow in strategic spots for shade. I weed out anything resembling aculeata.

I will try to append photos of my house in 1986-87 and 2015. With the same mattock I still use, I planted everything not in the earlier photo. My property is along a major desert wash. Rather than soil I have rocks separated by dust, so shovels are useless.

I don't shade my winter bulbs. Our winter sun seems excellent for them. I am at 33 degrees North. I bring some into the house for summer.

Most mesembs do very well here in winter. But several native bird species will destroy them as soon as they are seen. They can't be grown outside a screened enclosure, which I still don't have. Some mesembs cannot tolerate our occasional night-time frosts, from -1C to rarely -8. Summer night temperatures are another barrier. We may have many weeks in a row of night lows over 30C/85 F. Many mesembs melt because they can't breathe. Those need to come into the house for the hottest part of summer.
Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: Bern on March 10, 2023, 12:02:07 PM
Hi Leo,

Thank you for the great before and after photos of your house.  Your property looks like the proverbial oasis in the desert. It's good to see what can be done in an arid environment with judicious choices of plants and a drip irrigation system, especially one with four zones.

And thanks for the education about the nomenclature changes and the growing habits of the palo verde trees.  I'll be more cognizant of the different species when I'm visiting again in Arizona.

Is your property ever visited by javelinas?  Do you ever encounter rattlesnakes or coral snakes on your property?  Do you ever have problems with scorpions getting inside your house?  I'm fairly sure that the stories of scorpion infested homes in Phoenix that I've occasionally heard here on the East Coast are overblown in frequency as well as severity.  But, I thought I'd ask.

Thanks again for all of the information and the great pics. 
Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: Bern on March 12, 2023, 01:35:23 PM
In the EU's inflation crisis, the humble egg takes the cake  From AP News March 10, 2323

BRUSSELS (AP) — The humble egg has become a star performer for all the wrong reasons as inflation has hit households across the European Union extremely hard over the year.

The EU's statistical agency Eurostat announced Friday that the average price of an egg — that important staple for poor families and gourmet cooks alike — had risen by 30% over the year to January 2023, becoming a symbol of how the cost of living has hit everyone in the 27-nation bloc.

Even if the latest inflation figures show that annual inflation in the 20-nation eurozone has started to decline to 8.5% in February, the sector of food, alcohol and tobacco continued to rise and stood at 15%.

And then, eggs outperform just about all. Two years ago, egg inflation still stood at a lean 1%, rising to 7% the year after before reaching 30% in February.

Egg prices were whipped up the most in the Czech Republic, rising 85% over the year, followed closely by two other central European nations — Hungary (80%) and Slovakia (79%). Germany and Luxembourg stood at the other end, with both experiencing a relatively lower increase of 18%.

In the United States, egg prices have surged over the past year because of the ongoing bird flu outbreak and the highest inflation in decades. The national average retail price of a dozen eggs hit $4.25 in December, up from $1.79 a year earlier, according to the latest government data.
Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: David Pilling on March 12, 2023, 06:10:25 PM
Eggs... 6 very large eggs from Sainsbury's were £1.50 a year ago, now £2.00, 68 gm per egg, that's 2.4 ounces.

You can get 6 mixed size eggs, 55 gm per egg from Marks and Spencer for £1.00

Prices at Lidl/Aldi will be significantly lower. Those two are taking salad off ration on Monday morning. Chip lovers will be looking sad.

The one egg cake. Take quantities of sugar, butter and self raising flour equal in weight to an egg. Throw in a couple of big spoon fulls of ground almond, and you have a cake.
Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: Leo on March 12, 2023, 11:54:06 PM
Quote from: Bern on March 10, 2023, 12:02:07 PMHi Leo,

...nomenclature changes... of the palo verde trees.

Is your property ever visited by javelinas?  Do you ever encounter rattlesnakes or coral snakes on your property?  Do you ever have problems with scorpions getting inside your house?  I'm fairly sure that the stories of scorpion infested homes in Phoenix that I've occasionally heard here on the East Coast are overblown....
Sorry, I'm a bad biologist. These legume trees are all supposed by name changers to be Parkinsonia now, even trees in Africa. I began ignoring DNA work when Asclepiadaceae was sunk into Apocynaceae because of 1,500 base pairs total and I confirmed my intransigence when the type species of Acacia together with its closest relatives were moved into a brand new genus.

Javelina visit all the time. They are terrible pests. Imagine an animal that uproots things with aerial parts too spiny to eat. They will attack and injure severely if they feel threatened. Their stench is so foul they are almost always smelled before seen. I keep rocks and concrete blocks near doors to throw at them.

My neighborhood has king snakes (Lampropeltus getulus californicus), which eat rattlesnakes (Crotalus spp.) Rattlers are very common in the more desert areas but not in very urban areas. Our female rattlers seldom venture more than 6 feet / 2 meters from the burrow they were born in, so dense building extinguishes them. They lie in wait for prey to wander by. Males go out prowling widely, seeking food and cloaca.

Coral snakes are found almost only in the mesic southeastern corner of Arizona.

Scorpions are everywhere. For years I had none because it was such a dry neighborhood. Numerous neighbors have moved here from the lunatic asylum to the west and installed lush grassy landscapes, attracting plenty of scorpion food, so now we have scorpions. They fit through tiny cracks so it is almost impossible to exclude them from houses. A friend did his PhD work on their exoskeleton proteins, which effectively protect scorpions from contact pesticides. I have only seen a few in my house. Friends encounter them weekly or more frequently. One way to decrease the population is to go out in the dark with an ultraviolet light. They fluoresce brightly and can be squashed.
Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: CG100 on March 13, 2023, 07:09:56 AM
Quote from: Leo on March 12, 2023, 11:54:06 PMOne way to decrease the population is to go out in the dark with an ultraviolet light. They fluoresce brightly and can be squashed.

I don't know what species you have, but just like snakes, and much besides, most are harmless, or no more dangerous than a honey bee or mosquito.
Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: Bern on March 13, 2023, 07:16:15 AM
Quote from: David Pilling on March 04, 2023, 05:37:33 PMMeanwhile my YouTube subscriptions is full of videos predicting a US stock market crash at any moment.

I wonder if your YouTube channels had information about the banking situation in the US? As of this morning, three US banks have been shuttered in the last three days.  Of course, the chatter from on the media is mostly "nothing to see here; everything is OK; move along and just purchase a bunch of stuff on credit, etc." 

Silicon Valley Bank, Silvergate Bank, and Signature Bank are the three failures so far.

"The Banks must be restrained, and the financial system reformed, with balance restored to the economy, before there can be any sustainable recovery."  Quote from Jesse's Cafe Americain website and he's been saying it forever.

Regulators seize Signature Bank in third-largest US bank failure

Regulators seized New York regional bank Signature Bank (SBNY (https://finance.yahoo.com/quote/SBNY/?p=SBNY)) two days after shutting down Silicon Valley Bank as overseers of the banking system try to restore calm before markets open Monday.Signature becomes the third-largest bank to ever fail in the U.S., behind Silicon Valley Bank and Washington Mutual in 2008, if its assets haven't changed significantly since the end of 2022. Signature had $110 billion in assets as of Dec. 31, ranking 29th among U.S. banks. It had $88 billion in deposits as of that date, and approximately 89.7% were not insured by the Federal Deposit Insurance Corporation.

All of those deposit holders will get their money back, according to a joint statement from the Treasury Department Secretary Janet Yellen, Federal Reserve Chair Jerome Powell and FDIC Chair Martin Gruenberg, who cited a "systemic risk exemption" that is also being applied to all Silicon Valley Bank deposit holders. Shareholders and certain unsecured debt holders will not be protected, they added, and senior management had been removed.

You can read the rest of the article here.

https://finance.yahoo.com/news/regulators-seize-signature-bank-in-third-largest-us-bank-failure-231404695.html

Breaking News with Financial Advice for Savvy Investors:  'Buy the Dip in Bank Stocks,' Goldman Sachs Says.

https://finance.yahoo.com/news/buy-dip-bank-stocks-says-013508390.html

I'll pass for now thank you.

More Breaking News: Banking crisis: President Joe Biden says taxpayer funds won't be used to bailout SVB, Signature bank

Now it's a "banking crisis" and taxpayers won't be held liable for the bailouts.  LOL!
Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: David Pilling on March 13, 2023, 09:05:15 AM
Quote from: Bern on March 13, 2023, 07:16:15 AMI wonder if your YouTube channels had information about the banking situation in the US?

Oh yes, been hysterical all weekend:

"What's Coming Is WORSE Than a Recession" — Gerald Celente's Last WARNING
"Robert Kiyosaki Predicts MAYHEM Next Week"
"Market Catastrophe *DESPITE* Fed Bank Bailout!! WARNING [Silicon Valley Bank]"

They work on the broken clock principle (always right twice a day).

Mainstream media, BBC etc has concentrated on SVB, I had not heard of the other banks above. UK business of SVB has been bought for £1 by HSBC.

What did catch my eye today is "In America, 40% of all dollars produced by the Fed were printed in the last two and a half years."
Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: Bern on March 13, 2023, 10:05:29 AM
Quote from: David Pilling on March 13, 2023, 09:05:15 AMWhat did catch my eye today is "In America, 40% of all dollars produced by the Fed were printed in the last two and a half years."
Exactly. Most people in the US have no idea how money is created. Zilch! Even the most highly educated and intelligent people I've worked with over the years had no idea about the FED or money creation.  It's not taught in schools and it's not covered responsibly by the news media.  Hmmm.........

And remember, they aren't really dollars, they are Federal Reserve Notes - a DEBT obligation of the Federal Reserve Bank, the USA's money monopolist.

Anyway, here's the latest FED chart on the M2 money supply. "M2 is a measure of the money supply that includes cash, checking deposits, and other types of deposits that are readily convertible to cash such as CDs."

The explosion of money creation from 2008 to 2020 and from 2020 on is plain to see.  The result is INFLATION, of course.

FED M2.jpg

This chart should scare the heck out of any sane person.
Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: Leo on March 13, 2023, 11:04:12 AM
We could rewrite posts for Instagram.

THESE THREE THINGS PREVENT DEER MAYHEM IN YOUR BULB GARDEN SAY MARK & ARNOLD
Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: David Pilling on March 13, 2023, 11:43:36 AM
Hi Bern, amazing chart. Here are the ones for the UK and the Eurozone - no inflation in the Eurozone...

united-kingdom-money-supply-m2.jpg

euro-area-money-supply-m2.jpg

Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: Bern on March 13, 2023, 12:01:08 PM
Quote from: David Pilling on March 13, 2023, 11:43:36 AMHi Bern, amazing chart. Here are the ones for the UK and the Eurozone - no inflation in the Eurozone...

Clearly, there has been close coordination between the various, unelected central bank politburos on inflating the monetary supply since the 1980s.
Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: Bern on March 13, 2023, 12:36:31 PM
Quote from: David Pilling on March 13, 2023, 09:05:15 AMUK business of SVB has been bought for £1 by HSBC.

It is sad to see HSBC pay such an inflated price for SVB!
Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: Bern on March 14, 2023, 10:50:37 AM
Here's a great article about the failures of Silicon Valley Bank and Signature Bank.  The current estimate to bailout the uninsured depositors is about $230 billion.  Silvergate Bank also failed but I don't have bailout numbers yet.

"To put it bluntly, this was a Wall Street IPO machine that enriched the investment banks on Wall Street by keeping the IPO pipeline moving; padded the bank accounts of the venture capital and private equity middlemen; and minted startup millionaires for ideas that often flamed out after the companies went public. These are the functions and risks taken by investment banks. Silicon Valley Bank – with this business model — should never have been allowed to hold a federally-insured banking charter and be backstopped by the U.S. taxpayer, who was on the hook for its incompetent bank management."

https://wallstreetonparade.com/2023/03/silicon-valley-bank-was-a-wall-street-ipo-pipeline-in-drag-as-a-federally-insured-bank-fhlb-of-san-francisco-was-quietly-bailing-it-out/

"The Banks must be restrained, and the financial system reformed, with balance restored to the economy, before there can be any sustainable recovery."
Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: David Pilling on March 14, 2023, 03:13:25 PM
"The translation of the above is as follows: to prevent banks from further panicking the markets by taking massive losses on their underwater Treasury securities by selling them in order to meet depositor withdrawals, we're going to accept these Treasury securities as collateral for one-year loans and pretend that their market value is par (the full face amount at maturity)."

A bit like what happened in last October's events in the UK (pound fell, Prime Minister lost her job).

Consequence of high interest rates - does this mean there won't be any more interest rate rises and inflation will not come down as fast.
Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: Bern on March 14, 2023, 07:21:36 PM
Quote from: David Pilling on March 14, 2023, 03:13:25 PMConsequence of high interest rates - does this mean there won't be any more interest rate rises and inflation will not come down as fast.

Very good observation. They are in a very bad situation of their own making and their policy options going forward will have negative consequences for various constituencies.  But, if inflation begins to wipe-out the poor and severely affect the middle class, then there will be political consequences in the upcoming elections in 2024.  And there may me a lot of political unrest about it before that if it is perceived that all of the policy decisions benefit only the wealthy.  How will it look to citizens if there's a 20 percent year over year inflation and the stock market goes to record highs again?  That could get very ugly, very fast.

"One of the great truisms of economics is that the state cannot regulate its way out of bad money."  David Stockman

The were great fools to have kept ZIRP around for so long, and perhaps even greater fools for starting it in the first place.  And don't forget the unprecedented expansion of the monetary base also plays a big factor here.

I remember watching an interview with a man who lived near the Chernobyl Nuclear Plant after the reactor explosion.  He was very poor, and could not relocate to escape the radioactive fallout.  In tears, he described his predicament as being the victim of an experiment.  Very apt words.

So, we're all going to be experimental subjects with inflation going forward, at least here in the US.  Let's hope for the best, and hopefully be able to cope with the worst. Time will tell and it won't take long to see how things are going.
Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: David Pilling on March 14, 2023, 07:34:21 PM
(ZIRP == Zero interest-rate policy)

The losers from inflation are savers, but the winners will be borrowers (including the government), anyone with a mortgage as long as they can hang on whilst their wages catch up. The 70's inflation was not good for stock markets.
Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: Bern on March 18, 2023, 05:03:37 PM
How America Took Out The Nord Stream Pipeline

Seymour Hersh, the journalist who uncovered the Mỹ Lai Massacre and torture at Abu Ghraib says America detonated the Nord Stream 1 and 2 pipelines.

"Last June, the Navy divers, operating under the cover of a widely publicized mid-summer NATO exercise known as BALTOPS 22 (https://www.navy.mil/Press-Office/News-Stories/Article/3066830/baltops-22-the-premier-baltic-sea-maritime-exercise-concludes-in-kiel/), planted the remotely triggered explosives that, three months later, destroyed three of the four Nord Stream pipelines, according to a source with direct knowledge of the operational planning.

Two of the pipelines, which were known collectively as Nord Stream 1, had been providing Germany and much of Western Europe with cheap Russian natural gas for more than a decade. A second pair of pipelines, called Nord Stream 2, had been built but were not yet operational. Now, with Russian troops massing on the Ukrainian border and the bloodiest war in Europe since 1945 looming, President Joseph Biden saw the pipelines as a vehicle for Vladimir Putin to weaponize natural gas for his political and territorial ambitions."

Here's the link to Hersh's article. The story seems to be getting more corroboration as time goes be. 

https://seymourhersh.substack.com/p/how-america-took-out-the-nord-stream

One more quote and link.

"And so Biden gives the order to bomb it, and it's destroyed on September the 26th, months after the... And these guys had, I don't know whether they had just backed off when he, I don't know whether they had to go back and put everything online, but they thought it was a dead letter issue. So he does it, and on his command – That's what people in the CIA do, they respond to the crown and not to the Constitution."

https://therealnews.com/did-the-us-navy-destroy-the-nord-stream-pipelines

Is there any hope of a negotiated settlement to the war in Ukraine?
Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: CG100 on March 19, 2023, 01:49:10 AM
There was comment on the radio here last week - someone who had met the man responsible for the quote - Leonid Brezhnev, if memory is correct. Paraphrased -

"Negotiationing with the West is easy - we go in demanding vastly more than we expect, the West go in refusing to give anything. Russia comes away with far more than it expected and the West believes it has achieved acceptable compromise"

What is there to negotiate? The same sort of negotiation involved over Crimea?
Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: David Pilling on March 19, 2023, 05:02:57 AM
Quote from: Bern on March 18, 2023, 05:03:37 PMIs there any hope of a negotiated settlement to the war in Ukraine?

Interesting article. That quote about "in the CI do", threw me a bit, it is in the original article and should be CIA not CI.

I don't believe it unless it is true. Someone said that of course everyone knows who blew up the pipelines they just can't admit it in pubic because there would be serious consequences. For example if it was Russia there would be pressure for retaliation.

It is easier to find US sources than UK ones that are doubtful of the Ukrainian side.

The ONS (UK Office for National Statistics) asked me when the war would end, this was sometime last year, and I said soon. I'll repeat the same flawed logic. Look at the map, Russia holds most of what it wants, a chunk of land that stretches from Russia to the Crimea. The Russian speaking part of Ukraine. They'd probably like a bit more, as far as Moldova, taking in Odessa.

Maybe there will be a Ukraine offensive that changes things, otherwise they're in a position for a ceasefire.
Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: CG100 on March 19, 2023, 06:51:46 AM
I work with a couple of Latvians and Estonians, and I suspect that Poles, and others will be of like mind.

Hell will be a long time frozen over before they are likely to agree to the reborn USSR taking anything.
Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: David Pilling on March 19, 2023, 08:51:07 AM
Quote from: CG100 on March 19, 2023, 06:51:46 AMHell will be a long time frozen over before they are likely to agree to the reborn USSR taking anything.

My point, the closer to Russia you get the more pro Ukrainian. There is no hint of dissent in UK mainstream media. Poland is building a capable army.
Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: Martin Bohnet on March 19, 2023, 09:05:20 AM
Quote from: CG100 on March 19, 2023, 06:51:46 AMHell will be a long time frozen over before they are likely to agree to the reborn USSR taking anything.

And rightly so, because when will it stop if they see they can get anything at all by force? letting them (somewhat) keep the Crimea directly lead to this mess. Dont't even want to think about China and Taiwan.

I mean, for me it's more easy because they make it personal: as a gay man who organized the company Truck for Stuttgart pride for since 2016, I'm a personal sworn enemy for Vlady and his best buddy Patriarch Kyrill - don't laugh, they go on and on about how the morally rotten west forces pride parades on the poor previously uncorrupted peoples of the east. It's almost cute how afraid they are of two guys kissing, if all their defending the "traditional family" wasn't targeted towards producing more cannon fodder for their zerg rush "strategy". 

Sidenote: Taiwan is the only Asian country to have same sex marriage. I see a pattern.
Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: CG100 on March 19, 2023, 09:19:09 AM
Amen, Martin

A couple of today's videos from Warthog Defence, over on YouTube, are even more chilling than normal. Lunatic Russian soldiers, propagandists and clergy.

But then, of course, Ukraine did start it all.
Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: Bern on March 20, 2023, 08:38:20 AM
Can anyone be certain anymore that what is presented to them in the news it the truth?  Is the information provided by governments truthful or lies to protect "classified" activities?

In 1985, Dr. Robert Ballard at Woods Hole Oceanographic Institution, discovered the remains of the Titanic in what was presented by the news media as a purely scientific effort.  In short, it was a top secret US government mission to identify and study the wreckage of two sunken US nuclear submarines.  The news media presented the lies provided it with much fanfare and ceremony.  The effort has since been declassified.  Strangely, I have not heard any of the news outlets complain about being misled by the government.  Were they complicit in the subterfuge?

"There was nothing classified," Dr. Robert Spindel, the head of the Woods Hole Ocean Engineering Department, told the Times."

"Not so, Ballard admitted, and that wasn't the only one."

"I cannot talk about my other Navy missions, no," he said. "They have yet to be declassified."

https://www.cnn.com/2018/12/13/us/titanic-discovery-classified-nuclear-sub/index.html

How much can anyone believe the news being reported about the war in Ukraine?
Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: CG100 on March 20, 2023, 10:49:51 AM
In the UK? Common sense and spending just a little time listening to sources other than anything to do with politics, governments and state media. Just a suggestion.

There are PLENTY of young Russians posting information to YouTube from both within and outside of Russia, just for example.

This is headed into the realms of lunatic conspiracy theories SO fast.
Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: David Pilling on March 20, 2023, 06:22:32 PM
It was interesting to read about the USS Thresher and the USS Scorpion, two American nuclear subs that sank in the 1960s. Fancy leaving the nuclear weapons in place - they seemed keen on adding nuclear warheads to many things in the 50s. Like the BOMARC - nuclear anti-aircraft missile, which was going to be launched over the USA. All the fuss about firing missiles at balloons recently...

In the UK they like to tell us about the wreck of the SS Richard Montgomery a WW2 munitions ship in the Thames estuary, which has been left untouched and is disintegrating. If it exploded there would be drastic consequences for London.

The powers that be could tell us what it took to bomb the Nordstream, hobby divers (as has been suggested) or only a first rank power like the USA. I can't imagine the USA and all the rest of NATO outright denying it and then having to admit to it.

Today UK media has been remembering 20 years since the invasion of Iraq - they've been quite scathing about the false information used to support it.
Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: Martin Bohnet on March 20, 2023, 08:31:33 PM
Oh well, Iraq. Chancellor Schröder was absolutely right not to join that one. Unfortunately that did seem to use up his reservoir of good ideas, seeing how he clings to Gazprom these days...
Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: Bern on March 21, 2023, 06:13:54 AM
Quote from: David Pilling on March 20, 2023, 06:22:32 PMI can't imagine the USA and all the rest of NATO outright denying it and then having to admit to it.

This has, in fact, been done repeatedly.  It is Standard Operating Procedure.  During the late 60s, the news media was eagerly reporting that Howard Hughes was building the ship the Glomar Explorer, that was supposed to be involved in mining mineral nodules from the ocean floor. The media pushed the false story endlessly and it was such a successful story, that other companies started to invest money to recover these nodules from the ocean's depths also. In fact, it was a massive CIA lie that was fed to the news media.  The real story came out years later when it was finally declassified.  The Titanic and Glomar Explorer lies are probably just the tip of the iceberg (pun intended) of the lies fed to a complacent news media and pushed off on the public.  Again, I recall no outrage on the part of the news media about being used by the CIA to lie to the public. Not a peep....... 

During the Cold War, the CIA Secretly Plucked a Soviet Submarine From the Ocean Floor Using a Giant Claw

https://www.smithsonianmag.com/history/during-cold-war-ci-secretly-plucked-soviet-submarine-ocean-floor-using-giant-claw-180972154/

Who knows how many nuclear reactors and nuclear weapons are lying on the ocean floor or other inaccessible areas on the earth's surface?  How many are lost in space?
Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: CG100 on March 21, 2023, 11:51:31 AM
Mentions of the two lost sub's does reveal that the statement -

Quote from: Bern on March 20, 2023, 08:38:20 AMIn 1985, Dr. Robert Ballard at Woods Hole Oceanographic Institution, discovered the remains of the Titanic in what was presented by the news media as a purely scientific effort.  In short, it was a top secret US government mission to identify and study the wreckage of two sunken US nuclear submarines.

Is incorrect.

There was a "deal" between the Navy/Pentagon and Ballard - his team would check the known wrecks of the sub's and then he could use the loaned submersible to search for the Titanic.

The Scorpion is SW of The Azores, The Thresher is 200 miles E of Cape Cod and were known long before the discovery of the Titanic, which is around 350 miles SE of Newfoundland. I don't think that anyone could possibly, realistically, suggest that inspection of the sub's could in any way lead to finding the Titanic.
Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: David Pilling on March 22, 2023, 05:36:33 AM
Quote from: Bern on March 21, 2023, 06:13:54 AMAgain, I recall no outrage on the part of the news media about being used by the CIA to lie to the public. Not a peep...

News media don't usually complain about secrets, if there were no secrets they'd have nothing to reveal. Part of revealing the secret is indignation about it. As they say it is the cover up that often does the damage, rather than the original crime - Watergate etc.

Media have their own rules, a lot is not reported, either because of legal limits, or good practice.

Nordstream remains a mystery, who benefits(?) I believe gas continues to flow West in pipes going through Ukraine. But blowing them up would not be as deniable.
Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: Bern on March 22, 2023, 03:49:46 PM
Quote from: CG100 on March 21, 2023, 11:51:31 AMThere was a "deal" between the Navy/Pentagon and Ballard - his team would check the known wrecks of the sub's and then he could use the loaned submersible to search for the Titanic.

Ballard was a commissioned Navy Officer stationed at Woods Hole. I don't think there was much of a deal brokered; he was probably ordered to conduct the mission, but he might have had some say in the decision.

Woods Hole has a long history of developing advanced submersibles.  I believe that the submersible used was developed at Woods Hole and perhaps Ballard had a role in its design. I believe the Navy heavily funds Woods Hole.

https://www.whoi.edu/what-we-do/explore/underwater-vehicles/hov-alvin/history-of-alvin/

https://www.whoi.edu/know-your-ocean/ocean-topics/ocean-tech/underwater-vehicles/

It's all in the CNN article.  Here are some quotes from Ballard himself about the deception.

"They did not want the world to know that, so I had to have a cover story," Ballard said.

The search for the Titanic served as a great cover story, and the press was "totally oblivious to what I was doing," he said.

https://www.cnn.com/2018/12/13/us/titanic-discovery-classified-nuclear-sub/index.html


Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: CG100 on March 22, 2023, 04:18:46 PM
Bern - the sunken sub's and Titanic are SO far apart, that the story as portrayed by you can be nothing but sheer nonsense. It is akin to me stating that I discovered Australasia one day, when I walked to the bottom of my garden.

It is utter nonsense.
Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: David Pilling on March 23, 2023, 05:45:30 AM
Today I read someone draw a parallel between the Nordstream and the Berlin to Baghdad railway. Before WW1, the B-B railway was the German's way of getting oil. One of the first moves of Britain was to invade Iraq and stop work on the railway when it was just 400 miles short of completion.

Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: Bern on March 23, 2023, 06:27:50 AM
Quote from: CG100 on March 22, 2023, 04:18:46 PMIt is utter nonsense.

"Truth is treason in an empire of lies."  Attributed to Dr. Ron Paul.
Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: Bern on March 23, 2023, 06:29:38 AM
Quote from: David Pilling on March 23, 2023, 05:45:30 AMOne of the first moves of Britain was to invade Iraq and stop work on the railway when it was just 400 miles short of completion.

Was this accomplished with the aid of Lawrence of Arabia - T.E. Lawrence? 
Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: Bern on March 23, 2023, 06:37:44 AM
On a lighter side now that Spring has sprung this week.  One of the heralds of Spring is the return of the peregrine falcons to Salisbury Cathedral in the UK. Each year they return to raise the next generation of young falcons in their eyrie high atop the spires of Cathedral. 

The good folks there have placed a series of webcams for us to be able to observe the pair lay eggs, hatch them, and feed and raise the young falcons.  After many months, the babies mature and fly away. 

It was nice to watch this happen during the covid years.  Here's the link.  But beware, when the chicks get larger, the parents bring them lots of prey to eat, mostly large pigeons and rooks.

https://www.salisburycathedral.org.uk/discover/peregrine-falcons/peregrine-live-webcam/

Enjoy.
Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: CG100 on March 23, 2023, 06:56:40 AM
Peregrines are verging on common-place in the UK these days - the limiting factor will be suitable nest sites as they always choose tall rock/concrete formations of some kind. Most areas have ample feral pigeons for them although them taking significant numbers of rooks is a surprise as rooks are becoming extremely scarce - I would imagine that magpies, jackdaws and carrion crows would all out-number rooks by quite a margin.

Maybe there is a convenient rookery providing easy pickings?

Ravens are similarly common now too - if I spend any significant time outdoors here at home, I would expect to hear at least one and it is usually a pair. They even nest at work on a gantry and that is on the outskirts of Derby (peregrines also hunt the pigeons there). Ravens are easily missed unless they call and if they have nothing near to them to indicate their size, they are easily ignored as just being crows. (Oddly, UK ravens are actually a bigger race than the same species in NA.)
Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: David Pilling on March 23, 2023, 10:44:22 AM
Quote from: Bern on March 23, 2023, 06:29:38 AMWas this accomplished with the aid of Lawrence of Arabia - T.E. Lawrence? 

I was thinking of my grandfather. The mind's eye sees that movie clip, Peter O Toole, blowing up trains:

https://youtu.be/vOlRhGEhG7k?t=54

As far as I can discover TEL was elsewhere in the Middle East.

There was a long Mesopotamia ("Messpot" aka Iraq) campaign, the horrors of WW1 were not confined to the trenches in France:

https://www.nam.ac.uk/explore/mesopotamia-campaign

My grandfather did not get back until the 1920s.

He fought for the British Empire when he was 20, by the time he was 50 the Empire was gone. By the time he was 80 I was sharing an office with an Iraqi scientist who told me my grandfather was a criminal (along with everyone else involved).
Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: David Pilling on March 23, 2023, 10:48:17 AM
Quote from: CG100 on March 23, 2023, 06:56:40 AMPeregrines are verging on common-place in the UK these days

I was excited to have a Kestrel in my garden for a year or two. But it is a bargain basement bird of prey, no big deal for the experts. It did not tackle the aggressive seagulls, probably a pointer to the plentiful supply of mice.
Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: Bern on March 23, 2023, 01:12:26 PM
Peregrine Falcons Nesting Webcam - Salisbury Cathedral UK  Here's the link.

https://www.salisburycathedral.org.uk/discover/peregrine-falcons/peregrine-live-webcam/

Here are a few photos to cue people who are used to seeing text that this link is worth following for the next few months.

Peregrine1.jpg

Peregrine_chicks.jpg  









 

Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: Bern on March 23, 2023, 01:29:00 PM
Quote from: David Pilling on March 23, 2023, 10:44:22 AMHe fought for the British Empire when he was 20, by the time he was 50 the Empire was gone. By the time he was 80 I was sharing an office with an Iraqi scientist who told me my grandfather was a criminal (along with everyone else involved).

When I first moved to Virginia in 1989, Robert E. Lee was a revered figure and native son.  After the Civil War, Lee's full rights of citizenship were posthumously restored by a joint congressional resolution effective June 13, 1865.  Tourists came to the state from all over the world to visit the historic monuments and battlefields.

Rioters defaced his statue in May 2020 and it has since been removed. It had stood at its location for 130 years.  He has now been cancelled.  What a difference a few years make in the popular mind.

Robert.E.Lee.jpg
Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: Arnold on March 23, 2023, 06:09:26 PM
My only comment is that things just happen faster now than 10-30 years ago. 

No one wears leather shoes that I know, shoemakers have all but vanished in this area.

I could go on. 
Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: CG100 on March 24, 2023, 03:34:32 AM
Quote from: Arnold on March 23, 2023, 06:09:26 PMNo one wears leather shoes that I know

Fortunately, the UK hasn't reached that level of stupidity, not yet anyway.

I really just cannot get my head around all of this current PC madness - we have had plenty of that, including removal of statues, here in the UK too. What on earth does it achieve? Some people seem convinced that they can change the past through meaningless empty gestures.

The further you go back in history, as a generalisation, the more barbaric and unjust people become, so why are only recent figures attacked? Why does no-one bother with equally large symbols of man's inhumanity to man from more than 200 years or so ago? There are plenty in the UK from times going back to long pre-Roman (essentially BC for the non-Brits).
Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: David Pilling on March 24, 2023, 06:02:59 AM
Quote from: CG100 on March 24, 2023, 03:34:32 AM
Quote from: Arnold on March 23, 2023, 06:09:26 PMNo one wears leather shoes that I know
Fortunately, the UK hasn't reached that level of stupidity, not yet anyway.

You mean I can get cancelled/un-friended for having leather uppers...  ???

Confederate flags are not as common as they once where (even here) and the Dixie car horns

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zAKksqKR3pI

of my youth are long gone.

For me the story is how governments manage their mistakes. They don't tell their returning troops they have been part of a criminal enterprise, they're heroes, then years later they apologise.

History was not taken as seriously in the past. I can see the modern point of view. On the other hand history is rarely accurate and seeing everything from the point of view of the past is a proven recipe for disaster.
Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: Arnold on March 24, 2023, 07:13:21 AM
There's a George Orwell quote that addresses this.  I'll have to dig it up.

Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: Judy Glattstein on March 24, 2023, 12:18:53 PM
Lately there is mass insanity wherein schools are eagerly granting parents "more say in their children's education." This seems to express itself in book banning. Primarily seems to demand that children are too innocent to read about sex (haven't seen anything about banning books with a focus on violence) Yank the books off the shelves. Don't even have to read the book to demand it be banned, someone else has already screamed for banning and they just agree.

Someone has now demanded that the bible be banned - all that rape, incest, etc Oh the humanity . . .
Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: Bern on March 24, 2023, 01:02:15 PM
Quote from: David Pilling on March 20, 2023, 06:22:32 PMToday UK media has been remembering 20 years since the invasion of Iraq - they've been quite scathing about the false information used to support it.

There were a lot of US weapons inspectors who said that there were no WMD in Iraq and that an invasion was not called for.  I believed their viewpoint until the UK government came out in support of the war.  I thought that UK government must know more about the WMD issue and that their support for the war brought it credibility.  Boy, was I wrong. 

The suicide of Dr. David Kelly and the fallout resulting from it was only the beginning of the revelations about the falsehoods used to justify the war.

https://www.opendemocracy.net/en/opendemocracyuk/do-you-remember-what-happened-to-david-kelly/ (https://www.opendemocracy.net/en/opendemocracyuk/do-you-remember-what-happened-to-david-kelly/)

The Chilcot report published in 2016 was revelatory, to say the least.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2016/jul/06/iraq-inquiry-key-points-from-the-chilcot-report

"For me the story is how governments manage their mistakes. They don't tell their returning troops they have been part of a criminal enterprise, they're heroes, then years later they apologize."

In the US, they are always heroes; there is no apology.
Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: CG100 on March 25, 2023, 01:29:57 AM
Quote from: Judy Glattstein on March 24, 2023, 12:18:53 PMThis seems to express itself in book banning.

One of the UK's national treasures - Roger McGough - had a conversation on UK radio with an American lady who was responsible for having his books banned in at least part of the US. She admitted that she had never read any of his poetry and had no wish to as she knew what it contained. The conversation was both laughably funny and unfathomable.
I wish that I could remember the precise piece that had stirred her into action - it was harmless and had been completly misunderstood (not really a surprise - Roger is seen as part comic poet and part extremely wry observer and recorder of life in all its states).

Quote from: Bern on March 24, 2023, 01:02:15 PMBoy, was I wrong.

Oh? And so were, so are and so will be very many others. Oh for a perfect world.

I was basically against the Iraq war but for the comparatively trivial reason that I just cannot abide slime-ball Blair (often pronounced bluuurrrrr here, as in throwing-up). He has always struck me as one of the most duplicitous creatures ever to rise in UK politics.
Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: David Pilling on March 25, 2023, 05:04:23 AM
Quote from: CG100 on March 25, 2023, 01:29:57 AMI wish that I could remember the precise piece that had stirred her into action

https://www.oatridge.co.uk/poems/r/story-of-love-roger-mcgough-at-lunchtime.php

She appears in episode 2 of "Things Fell Apart", "Dirty Books" by Jon Ronson, a discussion of the "Culture Wars", around the 8 minute mark. It is available on BBC Sounds:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/m0011ldn

Quote from: CG100 on March 25, 2023, 01:29:57 AMI was basically against the Iraq war

I recall being convinced by Alistair Cooke, BBC "Letter From America", saying there must be some highly secret and terrible piece of information the powers that be, knew to justify events. Colin Powell looked unbelievable at the UN. I  wrote an email to a colleague saying if it was true about WMD they would not be invading Iraq. Then there was the 'dodgy dossier' apparently Blair (Bliar) and co, did not know the humble folk had access to Google.
Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: janemcgary on March 25, 2023, 02:47:33 PM
Nice to see the fading of the conspiracy theory thread, something I don't enjoy even though my father was born on a remote ranch near Roswell, New Mexico (UFO Central). I occasionally fling out an objection to social trends, such as the hotly, but eruditely, worded email send to my undergrad college's alumni office the other day in response to their asking whether I am an "alumnus, alumna, alumnx." Yet people my age (75, and I know some of you are in that range) have seen many annoying trends settle down, and we know new ones will arise continually. Someday nobody will be getting tattoos. Someday nobody will feel compelled to perform stereotypes from the past, though surely they will invent new ones, writing science fiction with their minds/bodies.
Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: Bern on March 25, 2023, 04:56:16 PM
Quote from: David Pilling on March 25, 2023, 05:04:23 AMI recall being convinced by Alistair Cooke, BBC "Letter From America", saying there must be some highly secret and terrible piece of information the powers that be, knew to justify events.

How about " Seven Countries in Five Years?"  General Wesley Clark was once the Supreme Allied Commander of NATO and he was in that position during NATO's war with Serbia.  He retired from the military in the year 2000.  He relates that a mere two weeks after the Sept. 11, 2001 terrorists attacks, during a visit to the Pentagon, a "senior general" told him, "We're going to attack Iraq. The decision has basically been made."  Six weeks later, Clark returned to Washington to see the same general and inquired whether the plan to strike Iraq was still under consideration. The general's response was stunning:"'Oh, it's worse than that,' he said, holding up a memo on his desk. 'Here's the paper from the Office of the Secretary of Defense [then Donald Rumsfeld] outlining the strategy. We're going to take out seven countries in five years.' And he named them, starting with Iraq and Syria and ending with Iran." While Clark doesn't name the other four countries at the time, he has mentioned in televised interviews that the hit list included Lebanon, Libya, Somalia and Sudan. (Nothing here about WMD.)

Here's a short YouTube video (about two minutes) of General Clark relating his experience at the Pentagon about the Iraq war and the other planned wars.  It's worth viewing.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FNt7s_Wed_4

And here's a more extensive article from Salon Magazine with more details.  It looks like the powers that be have succeeded so far with Iraq, Libya, and Syria (partially). There are ongoing conflicts in Somalia, Sudan, Yemen (not named), and now the big bonanza with Russia in Ukraine (also not named).  They also had to do an about face with Egypt when the Muslim Brotherhood did not work out as planned.

https://www.salon.com/2007/10/12/wesley_clark/

As Kurt Vonnegut wrote in Slaughterhouse Five, probably now a banned book: "So it goes...."

Or, as Roger Daltrey said: "Don't get fooled again!"



Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: Martin Bohnet on March 26, 2023, 08:14:45 AM
@janemcgary : no need to believe in theories, we all know the "Quark's Treasure" crashlanded near Roswell in 1947 (https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/Little_Green_Men_(episode)). I can't see no fading of other conspiracies here. as for the military thing: I think one has to differentiate between what the military wants and what is done in the end - at least the democracies have to try to get away with it in their own public's opinion - that Iraq-thing backfired gloriously and will make them think twice if their fake evidence is as water-prove as they think - then again, since George Michael died they are safe from having to endure that kind of criticism (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ABhZQ_VRbsQ)
Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: Bern on March 29, 2023, 11:55:10 AM
The peregrine falcon hen at Salisbury Cathedral is now sitting on 4 eggs.  The eggs should begin to hatch toward the end of the third week or the beginning of the fourth week in April.  Last year, 4 peregrine chicks hatched and fledged from this nest. A newly hatched peregrine chick is about the size of a golf ball and is covered in pure white down. They are very cute.

Here's the webcam link.

Live Peregrine Nestbox Webcam | Salisbury Cathedral, UK (https://www.salisburycathedral.org.uk/discover/peregrine-falcons/peregrine-live-webcam/)

Here's the link to the Facebook Group for the Salisbury Cathedral peregrines.

Salisbury Cathedral: Peregrine Falcon Group | Facebook (https://www.facebook.com/groups/salisburycathperegrinegroup)

Enjoy!

Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: David Pilling on March 30, 2023, 01:44:46 PM
A pity the cameras at Salisbury don't have sound, one could listen to the clock chime.
Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: Bern on April 13, 2023, 10:39:26 AM
Quote from: David Pilling on March 30, 2023, 01:44:46 PMA pity the cameras at Salisbury don't have sound, one could listen to the clock chime.

I sent an email today to the contact person for the peregrines at Salisbury Cathedral.  I asked if he would enable the sound on the cameras so people would be able to hear the chimes.  I'll let you know if I receive a reply.

The eggs should begin hatching very soon.  The babies will be about the size of a golf ball and covered with pure white down.  They are very cute.

Live Peregrine Nestbox Webcam | Salisbury Cathedral, UK (https://www.salisburycathedral.org.uk/discover/peregrine-falcons/peregrine-live-webcam/)

Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: David Pilling on April 13, 2023, 04:47:40 PM
Quote from: Bern on April 13, 2023, 10:39:26 AMI asked if he would enable the sound on the cameras

That will be interesting.

"Salisbury is one of only three English cathedrals to lack a ring of bells, the others being Norwich Cathedral and Ely Cathedral. However, its clock does strike the time with bells every 15 minutes."

Seemingly it has a claim to house the world's oldest clock, but it is not the one that rings the bells.
Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: Bern on April 14, 2023, 12:36:11 PM
Quote from: David Pilling on April 13, 2023, 04:47:40 PMThat will be interesting.

I received a prompt reply.  They are "working on it, but can't at the present moment."  Interesting for sure.

I hope they will enable sound.  I believe that there was sound on some of the cameras last year.

It would be nice to hear the chimes and see the falcons at the same time.
Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: Bern on April 24, 2023, 10:21:55 AM
The sound on the peregrine webcams at Salisbury Cathedral has been enabled. You can now hear the chimes every 15 minutes.

Live Peregrine Nestbox Webcam | Salisbury Cathedral, UK (https://www.salisburycathedral.org.uk/discover/peregrine-falcons/peregrine-live-webcam/)

I have not yet seen any of the chicks yet.  They should be hatching shortly if they haven't yet hatched already.  It's a rainy and dreary day today in Salisbury.  The mother peregrine is sitting tightly on her eggs while getting rained on.  She's a very good Mom!

There is a surprising amount of traffic noise as well as police sirens as I listen to it right now. 
Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: Bern on April 24, 2023, 11:53:50 AM
I just watched the shift change by the peregrine falcon parents incubating the eggs. There are no chicks yet to be seen, but there are still 4 eggs being incubated.

Here's a link about the chimes at Salisbury Cathedral.  They ring on the quarter and half hours.

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Quarter_and_half-hour_bells,_Salisbury_Cathedral.JPG

Enjoy!
Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: David Pilling on April 24, 2023, 05:11:13 PM
Hi Bern - the sound makes it more atmospheric - quite a surprise when the clock chimes.
Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: Bern on April 25, 2023, 10:38:55 AM
Salisbury Cathedral welcomes season's first peregrine falcon to hatch.

https://www.salisburyjournal.co.uk/news/23479837.salisbury-cathedral-welcomes-seasons-first-peregrine-falcon-hatch/


Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: Bern on April 27, 2023, 01:46:22 PM
As of today there are 3 peregrine falcon chicks that have hatched. The weather in Salisbury has been very rainy and the mother peregrine is hunkered down over her brood. She appeared soaking wet this afternoon. She's a good Mom!  Perhaps the weather will be better tomorrow.  The bell chimes are very nice on the hour.

https://www.salisburycathedral.org.uk/discover/peregrine-falcons/peregrine-live-webcam/ (https://www.salisburycathedral.org.uk/discover/peregrine-falcons/peregrine-live-webcam/)
Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: David Pilling on April 28, 2023, 03:25:36 AM
Quote from: Bern on April 27, 2023, 01:46:22 PMAs of today there are 3 peregrine falcon chicks that have hatched.

I drove past some black text on yellow background signs yesterday that said "Foulshaw Moss Ospreys", they're on TV too:

https://www.cumbriawildlifetrust.org.uk/wildlife/cams/osprey-cam
Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: Bern on April 30, 2023, 06:33:27 AM
Hey David,

Thanks for the link to the osprey nest cam.  It looks like the nest is in a remote and inhospitable place with lots of wind and rain now.

Ospreys are very common where I live.  They can always be seen at Jamestown settlement on the river or marsh, except when they leave for a few months for their winter migration. 

Are you going to be out mafficking next weekend for the big coronation ceremony?  It should be quite a display for sure.

Thanks again,

Bern
Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: David Pilling on April 30, 2023, 05:11:54 PM
Hi Bern

Quote from: Bern on April 30, 2023, 06:33:27 AMa remote and inhospitable place with lots of wind and rain

Some of us would like to call it home. Probly 5 minutes bird flight time from the City of Lancaster.

Quote from: Bern on April 30, 2023, 06:33:27 AMAre you going to be out mafficking next weekend for the big coronation ceremony?

Good word:

"to celebrate with boisterous rejoicing and hilarious behavior"

It feels like it will be quite low key. The King is trying to make himself appear relevant and the people are feeling poor at the moment.

No street party in my avenue.

The Queen's coronation in 1952 was a big deal, because it was just after the war and TV had become a possibility for the masses. Anyone with a TV gathered a crowd.

In my time, the Silver Jubilee (1977) was something everyone got involved with - I still have the memorabilia. Didn't seem as much involvement with Golden etc celebrations.

There is some coronation stuff in the shops, but nothing like as much stuff as for Halloween.

As an ex-naval officer one might expect the King to give the order "Splice the mainbrace" (issue the crew with an alcoholic drink) - but you can imagine the problems with that these days.
Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: Bern on May 01, 2023, 10:28:48 AM
Quote from: David Pilling on April 30, 2023, 05:11:54 PMGood word: Mafficking -
"to celebrate with boisterous rejoicing and hilarious behavior"

Mafficking is a really cool word. I first encountered it when I read a history of the Boer War.  It's named after the town of Mafeking, in South Africa.  This town had a British garrison that was besieged for 217 days during the Boer War and whose relief on May 17, 1900 was celebrated in London. Eventually, this type of boisterous celebration was referred to as Mafficking. 

Quote from: David Pilling on April 30, 2023, 05:11:54 PMthe people are feeling poor at the moment

Here's another good word: Mulcted.

verb: past tense: mulcted; past participle: mulcted

"they have turned mulcting taxpayers into an art form"

Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: David Pilling on May 01, 2023, 11:24:44 AM
I like the derivation of Mafeking - I wish I'd guessed that. As for mulcted, milked or the gardening mulched. Seemingly not:

"Mulct was borrowed from the Latin word for a fine, which is multa or mulcta. The "fine" sense is still in use, mostly in legal contexts ("the court mulcted the defendant for punitive damages"), but these days mulct is more often used for an illegal act".

Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: Bern on May 12, 2023, 10:22:08 AM
Quote from: David Pilling on April 30, 2023, 05:11:54 PM"Splice the mainbrace" (issue the crew with an alcoholic drink) - but you can imagine the problems with that these days.

The US Centers for Disease Control's most reported alcohol related deaths to be in excess of 140,000 per year here.  Their most recent data for drug overdose deaths in the US is about 107,000 per year.  Rounding up to 250,000 deaths per year, or 1,000,000 every four years is, to me, an amazingly large toll upon the people of a nation.

What kind of toll does alcohol and drugs take on the people of the UK and countries in Europe? 

Here's how The Lancet has summarized problem drinking worldwide.

The Lancet: Volume 392, Issue 10152, P1015 – P1035, September 22, 2018; Alcohol Use and Burden for 195 Countries and Territories, 1990 – 2016: A Systemic Analysis for the Global Burden of Disease Study 2016

Conclusion: "Alcohol use is a leading risk factor for disease burden worldwide, accounting for nearly 10% of global deaths among populations aged 15–49 years, and poses dire ramifications for future population health in the absence of policy action today. The widely held view of the health benefits of alcohol needs revising, particularly as improved methods and analyses continue to show how much alcohol use contributes to global death and disability. Our results show that the safest level of drinking is none. This level is in conflict with most health guidelines, which espouse health benefits associated with consuming up to two drinks per day. Alcohol use contributes to health loss from many causes and exacts its toll across the lifespan, particularly among men. Policies that focus on reducing population-level consumption will be most effective in reducing the health loss from alcohol use."

Other Info from Lancet Article: "The authors found that there was only a protective effect between alcohol and ischemic heart disease, and there were possible protective effects for diabetes and ischemic stroke but these were not statistically significant. The risk of developing all other health problems increased with the number of alcoholic drinks consumed each day, particularly cancers.  Combining these findings, the protective effect of alcohol was offset by the risks and overall the health risks associated with alcohol rose in line with the amount consumed each day. Therefore, the authors conclude that there is no safe level of alcohol."

"Harm due to alcohol use occurs by multiple mechanisms through which alcohol use affects health: through cumulative consumption leading to adverse effects on organs and tissues; by acute intoxication leading to injuries or poisoning; and by dependent drinking leading to impairments and potentially self-harm or violence. These effects are also influenced by an individual's consumption volume and pattern of drinking."
Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: David Pilling on May 12, 2023, 02:14:24 PM
I don't drink or smoke, modern medicine can do little for me - I was making the comment about "splicing the mainbrace" in jest. However it turns out that the order was actually given to the entire Royal Navy for the Queen's coronation 70 years ago.

As for King Charles's coronation I can find no mention of it - which may show how things have changed in 70 years.

He did apparently make reference to "splicing the mainbrace" in a recent light hearted letter to his former crew.

Nelson's Navy was by all accounts in a state of permanent intoxication, they probably would not have put up with the conditions otherwise. At the same time civilians were drinking beer because it was safer than water. Between then and now, the UK would have had nuclear submarines crewed by sailors given a daily rum ration.

Looking at the stats the UK drinks more than the USA. Drug abuse seems worse in the USA.

Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: Bern on May 14, 2023, 06:04:45 AM
"Splice the Mainbrace"

Braces are the lines that control the angle of the yards. On square-rigged ships, the mainbrace was the longest line in of all the running rigging. It was common to aim for the ship's rigging during naval battles. If the mainbrace was shot away, it was usually necessary to repair it during the engagement; the ship was unmaneuverable without it and would have to stay on the same tack. Even repairing it after the battle was a difficult job; the mainbrace ran through blocks, so it could not be repaired with a short splice or a knot. Splicing in a large run of hemp was strenuous work, and generally the ship's best Able Seaman were chosen to carry out the task under the supervision of the Boatswain ("bosun"). On completion of the task, it was customary for the men to be rewarded with an extra ration of rum. The Boatswain would take a sip from the ration of each of the men he had selected for the task. Eventually the order to "splice the mainbrace" came to mean that the crew would receive an extra ration of rum, and was issued on special occasions: after victory in battle, the change of a monarch, a royal birth, a royal wedding or an inspection of the fleet.  In cases where the whole fleet was to receive the signal, it would be run up with a lift of flags or signalled by semaphore.
Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: David Pilling on May 15, 2023, 02:35:32 AM
There are a lot of nautical terms in everyday language - talking of drink:

"three sheets to the wind", "Dutch courage", "groggy"

Gen Z probably wouldn't understand.
Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: Bern on May 19, 2023, 01:25:40 PM
T.S. Eliot was a Nobel Prize winning poet and is considered by many to be one of the most influential poets of the 20th century.  He is definitely a "heavy" poet and it's a slog getting through some of his works. He was born in Missouri, my home state, in the late 1800s, was educated at Harvard, Oxford, and the Sorbonne. He moved to England, renounced his US citizenship, and became a British citizen in 1927. 

Anyway, here's one of his poems that is enjoyable and easy to read.

Macavity: The Mystery Cat

Macavity's a Mystery Cat: he's called the Hidden Paw—
For he's the master criminal who can defy the Law...

Full version here:

https://poets.org/poem/macavity-mystery-cat


Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: janemcgary on May 19, 2023, 04:21:10 PM
Oops! Not fair use to quote an entire poem that is probably still protected by copyright. Hope PBS doesn't get in trouble for this.
Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: David Pilling on May 19, 2023, 05:07:16 PM
Good poem - inspiration for the very popular musical Cats.

It says elsewhere:

"From Old Possum's Book of Practical Cats. Copyright © 1939 by T. S. Eliot, renewed © 1967 by Esme Valerie Eliot. Used with the permission of Houghton Mifflin Harcourt."

As they say Mickey Mouse will never be in the public domain, because the copyright keeps getting extended.
Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: Bern on May 20, 2023, 01:50:15 PM
Copyright Disclaimer: under section 107 of the Copyright Act 1976, allowance is made for "fair use" for purposes such as criticism, comment, news reporting, teaching, scholarship, education and research. Fair use is a use permitted by copyright statute that might otherwise be infringing.  Non-profit, educational or personal use tips the balance in favor of fair use.
Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: David Pilling on May 20, 2023, 02:29:30 PM
Ode to the Scoundrel Cat

There once was a cat named Scoundrel,
Whose ways were most foul and unkind.
He'd eat all the food,
And then scratch the new wood,
And leave hairballs all over the mind.

Scoundrel was a master of stealth,
He'd sneak in and out without fail.
He'd steal all the treats,
And then sleep on your sheets,
And make you go crazy with wail.

Scoundrel was a creature of habit,
He'd wake you up at the crack of dawn.
He'd meow and he'd purr,
And then scratch at your door,
And demand that you feed him right now.

Scoundrel was a terrible creature,
But he was also kind of cute.
So you'd let him stay,
Even though he made you crazy,
And you'd love him despite all his flaws.

Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: janemcgary on May 20, 2023, 06:06:59 PM
Sorry, Bern, I worked in the publishing industry for many years, mostly for Oxford UP, and I know the rules. PBS should not post an entire work, even on this forum.
Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: David Pilling on May 21, 2023, 03:53:55 AM
Quote from: janemcgary on May 20, 2023, 06:06:59 PMPBS should not post an entire work,

I agree and have amended Bern's original post. PBS has been very good about respecting copyright. The world in general has not been very good about respecting PBS copyright.

Bern - hope this is OK with you. It should be possible to see that messages have been edited and who by.

These days I feel we would make more progress adopting the "it is better to ask forgiveness than permission" principle. We see plant related documents vanishing for lack of permission to preserve them.

Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: Bern on May 24, 2023, 08:59:39 AM
Hi David, Thanks for editing the post. I don't want the PBS to get into trouble with the copyright police or the internet police, even for trying to post something enjoyable and uplifting.  Sigh!!!!!
Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: Bern on May 24, 2023, 09:01:55 AM
Typhoon Mawar, a Category 4 storm, is now pounding Guam.  Here are some radar and satellite links that show's what's happening now. It's pretty impressive.

https://radar.weather.gov/station/PGUA/standard

https://www.goes.noaa.gov/guam/guamloops/guamvs.html
Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: Bern on May 24, 2023, 01:29:40 PM
Here is the storm track for Super Typhoon Mawar, currently leaving Guam and heading now to vex the people on Taiwan in several days.  Great image from Zoom Earth.

https://zoom.earth/storms/mawar-2023/

Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: David Pilling on May 24, 2023, 05:12:55 PM
Quote from: Bern on May 24, 2023, 08:59:39 AMthe copyright police

Copyright is a civil matter - companies will be scanning the internet to see if their intellectual property is being abused. Just what would happen - nothing or something, would be interesting to discover. In model systems like YouTube people make a living by issuing false copyright claims.

It's all a bit different in the wild world of the real internet. As likely as not, if you're on the 42nd page of Google and/or have no money no one will bother.

Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: David Pilling on May 24, 2023, 05:18:27 PM
Quote from: Bern on May 24, 2023, 01:29:40 PMthe storm track for Super Typhoon Mawar

Nice to see the laws of Physics in action. Interesting to see how all those places are close together.
Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: Martin Bohnet on May 27, 2023, 03:12:30 AM
Quote from: David Pilling on May 19, 2023, 05:07:16 PMAs they say Mickey Mouse will never be in the public domain, because the copyright keeps getting extended.
Actually, I think Mr Mouse is one of those that have de-facto passed into public domain because their pop culture relevance is too big to be contained. At a certain degree of this copyright control becomes an illusion, as anyone can scribble down a set of Duckburg or Mouseton-based characters (those two have actually joined in German translation, there has always been one Entenhausen for me). Buggs Bunny and Star Trek qualify for this, Tolkin likely, too. Others are about to do the jump, e.g. that Kingdoms from Westeros or the world of the TERF who shall not be named.

There are the letters of the laws and there is reality. If something is beloved by too many people it is unstoppable by the copyright owners.  Ma knitted me a Mickey Mouse sweater when I was in Kindergarden. I'm quite sure she didn't pay for the rights. Even though the pattern was from a DIY Magazine I seem to remember it was a copied page.
Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: David Pilling on May 27, 2023, 07:14:23 AM
"Dont' mess with the mouse" is the phrase used about Disney.

I was once done for infringing a trademark, not fun, lot of worry, although at the end of the day it cost me nothing, because I had not taken any trade from them. They were in the process of selling the trade mark and had carried out an internet search.

Hard to know what goes on, the UK press has a steady stream of stories about small businesses who think up plays on the names of well known brands and then get a legal letter - the last one I recall:

"Family-owned business renames Percy Pig ice cream after Marks & Spencer's friendly request"

Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: Bern on June 01, 2023, 03:36:24 PM
I bought some airline tickets yesterday and I could not believe it when United Airlines showed me how many kilos of carbon dioxide was being formed for the seats I purchased.  This is something I have never seen before.  I'm not sure what it means in the larger scope of things.  But, I don't like it a bit.

I went back to United today to work up an example for you to see.  Here it is.

Is this leading to a carbon tax for airline flights?  Will it lead to "flight shaming"?  How dare you fly on an airplane!

Does anyone know how many kilos of carbon dioxide a person produces in a year by breathing?  How dare you breathe!
 

United Flight CO2.jpg
Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: Bern on June 01, 2023, 04:22:47 PM
"If we roughly estimate that an average person exhales about 0.66 kilograms of CO2 in a day, this means that a world population of about 7 billion people will exhale around 1.7 gigatons of CO2 into the atmosphere each year.Aug 31, 2022."  New Scientist, August 31,2022

So 0.66 X 365 = 240.9 kilos of CO2 per person per year by breathing.



Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: David Pilling on June 01, 2023, 05:16:02 PM
Hi Bern,

"It's official: France bans short-haul domestic flights in favour of train travel"

"Boss of luxury airline firm claims pets produce three times more pollution than private flights"

"Since the start of last year, a UN-backed scheme has required airlines to offset emissions above a baseline by buying credits. On December 6th the eu decided to bring airlines deeper into its carbon-trading scheme."

"Is it better to go vegan or stop flying?"

It is all as bad as you imagine.

I'd keep quiet about breathing for fear of where that will end up. There must have been jolly jests in the 50s about taxing the air you breath.

Speculation is how far all this is going to go before reality sets in, for example the UK is on course to ban all internal combustion engine cars by 2030, despite the fact that replacing them all would consume an enormous amount of metal which is not available.

Maybe there will be some slippage, maybe cheaper batteries will appear (there is progress), maybe they'll have a change of plan.

In the UK pure battery vehicles have a green square on the number plate, and you do see quite a lot now, but not enough.

Enjoy your flight, sounds excitingly exotic from the UK perspective.



Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: Bern on June 02, 2023, 08:52:10 AM
Quote from: Bern on June 01, 2023, 04:22:47 PMA world population of about 7 billion people will exhale around 1.7 gigatons of CO2 into the atmosphere each year.

Quote from: David Pilling on June 01, 2023, 05:16:02 PMIt is all as bad as you imagine.  I'd keep quiet about breathing for fear of where that will end up.

Have the carbon crazies now concluded that people are "useless breathers"?

"First they came for the cows, and I did not speak out—because I was not a cow. Then they came for the chickens, and I did not speak out—because I was not a chicken. Then they came for the dogs and cats, and I did not speak out—because I was not a dog or a cat.  And then they came for the humans, and by then it was too late."

Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: David Pilling on June 02, 2023, 10:38:58 AM
Quote from: Bern on June 02, 2023, 08:52:10 AM"First they came for the cows, and I did not speak out—because I was not a cow.

In today's news

"The Irish government intends to have the country functioning with zero carbon emissions by 2050. In order to meet such lofty aims 10% of all livestock in Ireland would need to be "displaced" in the years ahead.

In the report seen by the Irish Independent the Department of Agriculture put forward the idea of putting to death 200,000 cows to enable the agricultural sector to play its part in reducing emissions.

With farmers requiring compensation for their losses the report suggested a figure of EUR 600 mln would be sufficient."


https://tvpworld.com/70291788/irish-govt-proposes-eur-600-mln-cull-of-20000-cows-to-meet-climate-goals#:~:text=According%20to%20reports%20seen%20by,over%20a%20three%2Dyear%20period.




Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: David Pilling on June 02, 2023, 10:57:48 AM
...then there's methane. After the vax thing should be no problem getting everyone to take 'anti-burp' tablets.
Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: Martin Bohnet on June 03, 2023, 12:24:38 AM
Relax on that breathing thing - as long as you don't eat fossile fuels it will be regenerative CO2 somewhat recently bound by plants.
Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: CG100 on June 05, 2023, 06:33:14 AM
Quote from: Martin Bohnet on June 03, 2023, 12:24:38 AMRelax on that breathing thing - as long as you don't eat fossile fuels it will be regenerative CO2 somewhat recently bound by plants.

Only to a point - all food would have to be raw unless using solar or a wood-fire. It also ignores transportation.

In terms of straight CO2, there is lots of work going on to run jet engines on modified vegetable oils, which work just fine, but you quickly hit the problem that there is no way vegetable oils of any kind, from any source, could make much of a dent in fuel demands.
The downside beyond CO2 are the believed effects of what amounts to con-trails, which some reckon are considerable.
Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: Martin Bohnet on June 05, 2023, 01:35:51 PM
Quote from: CG100 on June 05, 2023, 06:33:14 AM
Quote from: Martin Bohnet on June 03, 2023, 12:24:38 AMRelax on that breathing thing - as long as you don't eat fossile fuels it will be regenerative CO2 somewhat recently bound by plants.

Only to a point - all food would have to be raw unless using solar or a wood-fire. It also ignores transportation.

Well all of that CO2 is generated elsewhere, including energy that went into production of fertilizers - the molecules you breath out are strictly of organic origin - except for what you burp out from carbonated drinks...
Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: Bern on June 07, 2023, 01:13:28 PM
Quote from: Martin Bohnet on June 05, 2023, 01:35:51 PMthe molecules you breath out are strictly of organic origin

Molecules of CO2 from organic origin or from the burning of fossil fuel are chemically identical.  If CO2 is perceived to be "the" problem, and the elimination of the burning of fossil fuels does not stop global warming, will the anti-carbon crusaders target the carbon based lifeforms next? 
Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: fierycloud on June 07, 2023, 10:25:58 PM
Quotehttps://www.cnr.it/en/focus/046-4/bvoc-biogenic-volatile-organic-compound-emission-responses-to-climate-change
  The global carbon emitted as BVOCs is about 1.1 Pg per year, and is believed to be of the same order of magnitude than methane emissions.
There are some gas which have carbon released by the plant. And some fragrance essential oils and even Volatile Fatty Acid might be a kind of carbon release in the form of gas.
Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: David Pilling on June 08, 2023, 04:40:49 PM
"Our results indicated that although the majority of plant C was obtained from atmosphere by photosynthesis, a significant portion (up to 3–5%) of C in plant roots was derived from old soil. "

https://pubs.acs.org/doi/10.1021/acs.est.8b06089#:~:text=Our%20results%20indicated%20that%20although,was%20derived%20from%20old%20soil.

Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: Martin Bohnet on June 10, 2023, 01:57:35 AM
and carbon in old soil is not Photosynthesis-based? OK, I guess peat is a problem, but it is very much banned these days outside rhododendron and bog gardening...
Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: David Pilling on June 10, 2023, 04:13:33 AM
Quote from: Martin Bohnet on June 10, 2023, 01:57:35 AMand carbon in old soil is not Photosynthesis-based?

Coal is photosynthesis-based.

Quote from: Martin Bohnet on June 10, 2023, 01:57:35 AMpeat is a problem, but it is very much banned

In the UK I am year two peat free, no big deal. Banned? seems like sales to gardeners are banned, but sales to the trade will continue until 2030. Situation in the EU?

Be the first gardener to try:

The 'black gold' that could help fight climate change for centuries to come

https://news.sky.com/story/the-black-gold-that-could-help-fight-climate-change-for-centuries-to-come-12890032

"A high-grade version of BBQ charcoal is being tested as a way of removing greenhouse gas from the atmosphere for centuries to come."

"The charred wood, called biochar, has been spread over farmland in one of the first large-scale trials of its kind, in the hope carbon captured by trees from the air during their lifetime can be buried in the soil."

Using charcoal to grow stuff in is not new. In the Aladin's cave of chemicals which is my gardening work space I have a bag of it.

Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: Martin Bohnet on June 10, 2023, 06:14:50 AM
well, in my daytime job i currently work with a catalyst that's even more sulfur sensitive than usual types, so we pass all gasses through an absorber which is active carbon based. CO2 has by far the worst retention time in the absorber, so I guess yes, there is a high affinity - luckily the boudouard equilibrium is on the Carbon  +  CO2 side and nearly unmeasurably slow at room temperature...
Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: Ron on June 10, 2023, 03:42:40 PM
CO2 can also be locked up in carbonate minerals (from the Guardian):  Rock 'flour' from Greenland can capture significant CO2, study shows (https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2023/may/30/rock-flour-greenland-capture-significant-co2-study)
Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: Bern on June 11, 2023, 09:19:33 AM
"The Kakhovka Dam in Ukraine was destroyed on 6 June 2023 between about 2 a.m. to 2:54 a.m. local time, causing extensive flooding along the lower Dnieper river in Kherson Oblast. The dam was under the control of the Russian military, which had seized it in the early days of the Russian invasion of Ukraine." Wikipedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Destruction_of_the_Kakhovka_Dam)

Ukraine_Dam_Disaster.jpg


I am still reading articles giving the opinion that this might have been a structural failure.  If not, who is responsible for this?  Perhaps Seymour Hersh will be able to tell us in a few months.

Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: MarkMazer on June 11, 2023, 12:43:04 PM
Canadian Peat Week:   "Treed peatlands exhibit both crown and smouldering fire potential; however, neither are included in Canadian wildfire management models and, as such, they are not formally represented in management decision-making." https://www.publish.csiro.au/wf/WF21001 

Mark Mazer
East Coast USA
Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: David Pilling on June 11, 2023, 06:42:18 PM
Quote from: Bern on June 11, 2023, 09:19:33 AMIf not, who is responsible for this?

People had been speculating for months about blowing up the dam - see William Spaniel on YouTube. Presumably Putin did it because it creates conditions in his favour. It made me think that even if Putin's army is forced from Ukraine what is left may not be usable.

One You Tuber who made it big thanks to covid started to consider how Europe would cope with a major release of radioactivity - if they decide to blow up a power station.

In other news the Washington Post reported that the USA knew Ukraine had a plan for blowing up the Nordstream. There's also been news that traces of the explosives used where found on the rented yacht 'Andromeda' also in the Washington Post "Investigators skeptical of yacht's role in Nord Stream bombing".

Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: Martin Bohnet on June 11, 2023, 11:03:37 PM
I actually don't care who blew up Nordstream - in the end it didn't hurt Europe, noone's frozen to death - it was more of a help in seeing what we can cope with. On the other hand things proove that safety is a major concern for future energy projects - how anyone can build a new nuclear power plant in a volatile world is beyond me, and I'm not even talking about Turkeys tectonic problems and their obvious unwillingness to adhere to safety standards in construction. Unfortunately we have to reconsider water power as well.
Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: David Pilling on June 12, 2023, 05:21:15 AM
Quote from: Martin Bohnet on June 11, 2023, 11:03:37 PMhow anyone can build a new nuclear power plant

Today nuclear is the least worst option, after solar it is the safest option.

The previous UK Prime minister (about 8 months ago) was going full speed ahead for more North Sea oil and gas. The next one (everyone assumes, about 16 months hence) is pledging retraining for oil and gas workers after an orderly wind-down of the industry - he hangs around nuclear power plants under construction which were approved by the last Prime minister but two or three. His party has taken a substantial amount of money from the boss of an electricity company that backs the "just stop oil" campaign.

Maybe we will muddle through.

I hope someone has done the maths - probably they have, after all this thread shows Winter 2022-23 turned out OK.

A lot of hope is focused on small nuclear power plants, the type of thing they put in submarines or aircraft carriers - quicker to build in a factory - and you could move them around depending on what the energy policy of the day happens to be.
Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: Bern on June 12, 2023, 08:39:42 AM
Quote from: David Pilling on June 11, 2023, 06:42:18 PMeven if Putin's army is forced from Ukraine what is left may not be usable.

It appears that both Ukraine and Russia are using land mines in this conflict.  These will be a danger to people and livestock for years after the war is over.  Demining will be a huge undertaking without assurance of complete success. 
Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: Bern on June 12, 2023, 08:42:22 AM
Quote from: David Pilling on June 12, 2023, 05:21:15 AMToday nuclear is the least worst option

Sadly - Three Mike Island, Chernobyl, Fukushima.
Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: David Pilling on June 12, 2023, 09:06:49 AM
Quote from: Bern on June 12, 2023, 08:42:22 AMSadly - Three Mike Island, Chernobyl, Fukushima

"
So, how does nuclear power's safety rank?

It comes in second, with 0.03 deaths per terawatt hour of electricity, behind solar power's 0.02 deaths per terawatt hour, but ahead of wind, which offers 0.04 deaths per terawatt hour.

And that's including deaths from Chernobyl and Fukushima, the latter of which has a direct death toll of one possible death, but thousands of indirect deaths due to the stress of relocation, many of which were exacerbated by the tsunami.
"
Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: Martin Bohnet on June 12, 2023, 10:32:29 AM
it may be relatively safe on its own, but it is such a wonderful target for terrorism and, likely these days, hacking.
Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: fierycloud on June 12, 2023, 10:32:08 PM
Quote from: Bern on June 12, 2023, 08:42:22 AM
Quote from: David Pilling on June 12, 2023, 05:21:15 AMToday nuclear is the least worst option

Sadly - Three Mike Island, Chernobyl, Fukushima.

At least, there seem to be only foods which related to Chernobyl, Fukushima are regulated by the EU and UK.
Quotehttps://eur-lex.europa.eu/eli/reg_impl/2020/1158/oj
COMMISSION IMPLEMENTING REGULATION (EU) 2020/1158of 5 August 2020on the conditions governing imports of food and feed originating in third countries following the accident at the Chernobyl nuclear power station

Quotehttps://eur-lex.europa.eu/eli/reg_impl/2021/1533/2022-05-03
  Consolidated text: Commission Implementing Regulation (EU) 2021/1533 of 17 September 2021 imposing special conditions governing the import of feed and food originating in or dispatched from Japan following the accident at the Fukushima nuclear power station and repealing Implementing Regulation (EU) 2016/6 (Text with EEA relevance)Text with EEA relevance
Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: David Pilling on June 13, 2023, 03:51:06 AM
The weather in the UK mostly comes from the West, off the Atlantic. During Chernobyl (1986) there was a short spell of weather from the East. As a result sheep grazing on the Welsh hills were kept out of the food chain until 2012. That is how big and widespread the mess can be.

Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: Bern on June 13, 2023, 08:02:59 AM
Things will be hot today in Miami, not radioactively hot thankfully, as former President Trump is arraigned there in Federal Court.

Here's a photo of a demonstrator outside the courthouse this morning. 

What would George Carlin say about this? 

"Osmani Estrada, 40, poses with a severed pig head outside the federal courthouse in Miami on Tuesday, June 13, 2023. He said he's there to show support for the democratic process working as it should."

Trump_Supporter_Miami.jpeg.jpg

Carla Santiago Csantiago@miamiherald.com (mailto:Csantiago@miamiherald.com)

Read more at: https://www.miamiherald.com/news/politics-government/article276334556.html#storylink=cpy (https://www.miamiherald.com/news/politics-government/article276334556.html#storylink=cpy)


   
Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: David Pilling on June 13, 2023, 08:34:38 AM
At least one UK news anchor (Sky's Anna Botting) has decamped to Miami to report on proceedings. I'm not sure why.

Here in the UK, former Prime Minister but one, Boris Johnson has been driven from parliament this week over breaking the law (parties during lockdown), Nicola Sturgeon (former Scottish First Minister) was arrested over the weekend.

Is it the laws are getting harder to obey, that all these figures are challenging the establishment, or that politicians are poorer quality/more reckless.

Making excuses for them, previous politicians did worse things and remained well respected.

Prime Minister Eden invaded Suez and lied about it. Tony Blair invaded Iraq on the basis of false information.



Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: Bern on June 13, 2023, 01:44:28 PM
Quote from: David Pilling on June 13, 2023, 08:34:38 AMIs it the laws are getting harder to obey, that all these figures are challenging the establishment, or that politicians are poorer quality/more reckless.

I think that all three of the above are now in play.  But, in addition and very recently, the longstanding tacit agreement between parties and within parties of not using the justice system to remove an opponent has vaporized.  Going forward, there will be retribution for this and it will probably become more common, especially between parites.  Time will tell......

Quote from: David Pilling on June 13, 2023, 08:34:38 AMHere in the UK, former Prime Minister but one, Boris Johnson has been driven from parliament this week over breaking the law (parties during lockdown), Nicola Sturgeon (former Scottish First Minister) was arrested over the weekend.

I always thought of Boris Johnson as a jolly, avuncular character who probably characterized some archetype in British society, reminiscent of Shakespeare's Falstaff, or Dicken's Ghost of Christmas Present.  However, upon learning more about his life and his career, he seems to have destructive and mendacious qualities also. 

The arrest of Nicola Sturgeon was surprising; her stern demeanor always made her appear as a perfect example of rectitude.

Quote from: David Pilling on June 13, 2023, 08:34:38 AMAt least one UK news anchor (Sky's Anna Botting) has decamped to Miami to report on proceedings. I'm not sure why.

Perhaps Anna can inform us where one can procure a pig's head in Miami!
Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: Bern on June 21, 2023, 08:56:56 AM
I get house for sale listings from a realtor in Sarasota, Florida on a regular basis. Look at what showed up in a recent post. That's one ugly house.  What a bargain at only $445K!

Ugly_FL_House.jpg

https://www.realtor.com/realestateandhomes-detail/M5544855355
Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: David Pilling on June 21, 2023, 09:08:14 AM
...somebody's home, which they decorated with love.

Make's me think my garage door could do with some pink flamingos. The King's home, Buckingham Palace has flamingos in its lake. Have to keep feeding them shrimps to keep them in the pink, and watch out for frosts.

$445K - not cheap even by UK standards - I'd imagine you have a lot more land in the USA. ISTR UK average house price is now approaching £300K.
Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: Bern on June 26, 2023, 06:00:14 AM
Bank of England hikes rates to 5% in surprise move to tackle stubborn inflation

https://www.reuters.com/markets/rates-bonds/bank-england-hikes-rates-5-surprise-move-tackle-stubborn-inflation-2023-06-22/

Inflation appears to be stubbornly resistant so far to the interest rate hikes by the BOE and the FED.  Inflation is even more resistant to the blather by the central bank staffers who are trying to talk it down. Interest rate yield curves are inverted signaling recession. Interesting times are ahead.
Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: David Pilling on June 26, 2023, 08:41:29 AM
A lot of sadness and a lot of sadness yet to come.

It is now standard wisdom that inflation will only be beaten with a recession, which will involve people losing their jobs and homes and companies going bust.

Things are bad in the UK, but it is interesting to see how seriously people in the USA are taking an inflation situation which looks a lot better than here.

I could rant about the behaviour of the Bank of England these last dozen years, but as with the reaction to Covid, it has been doing just what its peers have been doing.

The Eurozone is already in recession.

Time to show your skill at catching falling knives.
Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: Bern on June 27, 2023, 01:05:01 PM
Quote from: David Pilling on June 26, 2023, 08:41:29 AMIt is now standard wisdom that inflation will only be beaten with a recession

One can take some small comfort knowing that the BOE and the FED will always do the right thing - but only after every other possible alternative has been completely exhausted. 
Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: David Pilling on June 27, 2023, 06:40:30 PM
Possibly the Bank of England has not encountered this situation before - it was only made independent in 1998, before that politicians set the "bank rate". All the previous horrors with inflation in the 70s were with the old system.
Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: Bern on June 29, 2023, 08:32:15 AM
The freakish spectacle of the Wagner mercenary army in Ukraine rebelling against the Kremlin was an amazing development in the sad saga of war there.  The owner/leader of this army, Yevgeny Prigozhin, is now in exile in Belarus.  What was he thinking?  I'm sure he knows that the Russian government is unmerciful to those it considers traitors.  There were two very well publicized acts of revenge in the UK by the Russians. The first was the grisly Polonium poisoning of Alexander Litvinenko in 2006.  The second was the Novichok poisonings of Sergei and Yulia Skripal in 2018.  There may have been others in the UK that were less well publicized.  Will Prigozhin encounter a similar fate?
Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: David Pilling on June 29, 2023, 05:05:50 PM
Quote from: Bern on June 29, 2023, 08:32:15 AMWill Prigozhin encounter a similar fate?

There's been some joking in the UK press about staying away from open windows or stopping in a hotel with no windows (a string of Putin enemies have fallen from grace). UK spies have supposedly said that the mutiny only stopped because Prigozhin's family was threatened.

Today they seem to have misplaced General Armageddon - Russian general staff engaged in a scene from 'Reservoir Dogs'.

Two cliches seem appropriate "crossing the Rubicon" and Russia is "A riddle wrapped in a mystery inside an enigma".

For all the bandwidth the media devoted to it, I'm not so sure we know what has gone on, never mind why or what will happen next.

Prigozhin may have just been doing his master's bidding to flush out enemies of the state.
Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: Martin Bohnet on July 03, 2023, 10:32:21 AM
Quote from: Bern on June 21, 2023, 08:56:56 AMI get house for sale listings from a realtor in Sarasota, Florida on a regular basis. Look at what showed up in a recent post. That's one ugly house.  What a bargain at only $445K!

Well, cheap housing in Florida wouldn't surprise me - I'd consider leaving there as long as I can, if I lived there - It's already obvious that deSantis' witch-hunt does not stop at the T, the rest of the alphabet soup ist packing, too.
Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: David Pilling on July 03, 2023, 04:45:58 PM
I'd like to vist the Florida keys, so beautiful.
Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: David Pilling on July 04, 2023, 08:47:04 AM
I've had a private communication:

"You would want to stop in at: https://fairchildgarden.org/ in Coral Gables on the way down to the keys."

Looks like it would appeal to a gardener.

Other things on my fantasy list are driving over the Chesapeake Bay Bridge and along Pacific Coast Highway 1.

Happy Independence Day.

Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: Bern on July 05, 2023, 11:13:30 AM
Hi David.  All of your choices are excellent.  I live near the Chesapeake Bay Bridge and it is a nice drive from Virginia's tidewater area to the Eastern Shore and back. The Pacific Coast Highway on a clear day is simply spectacular.  I visited the Fairchild Botanical Garden for an Aroid Show and Sale last September.  It's a very nice place and specializes in tropical plants as you would expect given the climate there.

The Florida Keys Highway is another great drive from the upper keys to Key West.  And don't forget to take a day trip to the Everglades National Park to see this amazing ecosystem.  I took an ecotour boat ride while I was there and saw lots of wildlife, including on of my favorite animals, the West Indian Manatee.

Manatee.jpg 

Alligators abound there, but the American Crocodile is making a comeback.  I was fortunate to see one and it was wicked looking and huge. 

Finally, a boat trip from Key West to the Dry Tortugas National Park would be an excellent outing also.  This one I have not done, but I would like to make the trip if I get down that way again.  The sea water is a beautiful color and it would be a great excursion.

https://www.drytortugas.com/

There's much to see, do, and enjoy!


Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: Bern on July 07, 2023, 05:46:55 AM
It's going to be quite hot in Phoenix for the next few days!

Phoenix.jpeg.jpg
Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: David Pilling on July 07, 2023, 09:31:30 AM
Phew! Glad I am not in Phoenix. Perspiring in Blackpool at 80F.

It is supposedly the World's hottest day ever (OK since records began).

Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: Bern on July 08, 2023, 09:44:03 AM
Quote from: David Pilling on July 07, 2023, 09:31:30 AMGlad I am not in Phoenix.

I wonder how Leo Martin and his plants are doing in Phoenix in this heat?  Perhaps we'll hear from him and get an update.
Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: Diane Whitehead on July 08, 2023, 11:19:11 AM
We need a new topic:   Cooling Your Greenhouse
Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: Bern on July 18, 2023, 03:16:42 PM
Quote from: Diane Whitehead on July 08, 2023, 11:19:11 AMWe need a new topic:  Cooling Your Greenhouse

Very good point.  Phoenix is setting a record for consecutive days above 110 F.

Phoenix hits 110 degrees for the 19th day in a row, setting national record

"Phoenix has broken the record for most consecutive days at 110 degrees or higher. Now at 19 straight days with temperatures at or above 110 degrees, this breaks the previous record set in 1974. The forecast high of 116 degrees on Tuesday would also break the record high for the date set in 1989, according to the National Weather Service.  Temperatures are not expected to let up in Phoenix, with temperatures forecast to be above 110 degrees for the remainder of the week."

https://www.azcentral.com/story/news/local/phoenix-weather/2023/07/18/phoenix-hits-110-degrees-for-record-19th-day-in-a-row/70426475007/

Lots of great photos in this article.
Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: Bern on July 21, 2023, 05:52:08 AM
Greenhouses in the areas of the US experiencing the current heat wave will probably need to have shade cloth, mechanical ventilation, and perhaps some type of evaporative cooling to help their plants survive. 

Here is a post from the National Weather Service about the heat wave and what to expect today.

"A dangerous, long-lived, and record breaking heat wave will continue over
the Southwest through this weekend, particularly in the low desert areas,
with triple digit high temperatures also extending northward into the
Central Great Basin this weekend. Oppressive heat and humidity are
forecast to create widespread 105-110 degree heat indices across the
Mid-South, Southeast and Gulf Coast through early this weekend. Take the
heat seriously and avoid extended time outdoors. Temperatures and heat
indices will reach levels that would pose a health risk, and be
potentially deadly to anyone without effective cooling and/or adequate
hydration. Nighttime temperatures will provide very little relief. Heat is
the leading weather-related killer in the U.S.
"

https://www.weather.gov/


Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: David Pilling on July 21, 2023, 07:42:55 AM
Bad news, I am sorry for those in the places suffering.

Here on the little island in the middle of the Atlantic, it is unseasonably cool. Mid-afternoon and it is 61.5 F, that's the easy one to convert 16C (along with 82F/28C swop the digits).
Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: CG100 on July 21, 2023, 12:50:49 PM
Quote from: Bern on June 12, 2023, 08:39:42 AM
Quote from: David Pilling on June 11, 2023, 06:42:18 PMeven if Putin's army is forced from Ukraine what is left may not be usable.

It appears that both Ukraine and Russia are using land mines in this conflict.  These will be a danger to people and livestock for years after the war is over.  Demining will be a huge undertaking without assurance of complete success.

The danger is far greater from deeply seated munitions that have not detonated. The great majority of mines have been laid in agricultural land and the Ukrainian farmers have teamed with Heath Robinson to demine lots of that already.
Cluster munitions are another problem - they are meant to detonate on landing - the ones that don't are the problem. The US reckons it has very few duds, but boith parties have been using them, even before the US sent any to Ukraine.

Quote from: David Pilling on June 12, 2023, 05:21:15 AMA lot of hope is focused on small nuclear power plants, the type of thing they put in submarines or aircraft carriers - quicker to build in a factory - and you could move them around depending on what the energy policy of the day happens to be.

Dream on. They are absolutely not even remotely portable outside of a vast sub' or ship.
Nor are they "quick" to build, except in comparison to a conventional nuclear power plant.
I work for RR  ;)


Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: David Pilling on July 21, 2023, 01:42:53 PM
Quote from: CG100 on July 21, 2023, 12:50:49 PMI work for RR

Yep, our hopes depend on you.

This week it seems we're investing in a backup strategy:

"Great British Nuclear: Government unveils competition to fund small reactors
More than £150m of grant funding has been announced for innovators in the UK's nuclear power sector, who are now being encouraged to bid for new grants under Great British Nuclear's first competition."

Where's Rube Goldberg...


Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: CG100 on July 22, 2023, 01:15:45 AM
Quote from: David Pilling on July 21, 2023, 01:42:53 PMYep, our hopes depend on you.

LLLOL - I retire in 4 months.

It is no secret that RR is extending one if its Derby sites, but that is to enable them to fill certain orders from Australia. Where it is proposed to build any SMR, I have no idea, but the current plan is that they would be installed on existing nuclear power plant sites - an "odd" decision in many ways.

I have no idea on relative sizes, but Russia does have mobile nuclear plants (I believe that there is more than one) for civilian use, or at least not part of any defence installation. They are (each) on some kind of gigantic barge/pontoon, so far as I am aware.

There would be many problems associated with moving a working SMR via anything but sea, but size/weight alone would be a major one. The pressure vessels are large and very thick and each plant uses more than one. Dismantling anything after start-up, to move it disassembled, would not be an option.
RR talk about 10 acre sites, but I suspect that a lot of this would be security measures - any building would be a "long" way from the perimeter. The claim is, though, that the "modular" part of the name refers to the fact that all parts could be transported as per shipping containers, albeit rather a large number. In all probability, the vessels will be built to something like maximum dimensions for a shipping container.

I do not work for/with the SMR team.
Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: MarcR on July 27, 2023, 12:41:07 AM
Here in western Oregon, our hottest day so far was 89F (31.7C).
Even cool growing plants like Primulas were not very stressed.
I made an inexpensive evaporative cooler by placing rags that retain a lot of water between panels of chicken wire and using a fan to force air through it.
Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: Wylie on July 27, 2023, 05:58:51 AM
Quote from: David Pilling on July 21, 2023, 07:42:55 AMBad news, I am sorry for those in the places suffering.

Here on the little island in the middle of the Atlantic, it is unseasonably cool. Mid-afternoon and it is 61.5 F, that's the easy one to convert 16C (along with 82F/28C swop the digits).
Your island isn't that little. On a real small island in the middle of the Atlantic (1,000 miles to Washington, D.C. and 800 miles to Lisbon) summer has finally hit with temperatures at 75°F for a high, and rain is way above normal. The average rain days on Terceira Island for July is 1.8 and we have had some very rainy days. Even set some new records for low temperatures in July. Fortunately T.S. Don didn't affect us except for a few very outer bands of rain. It is getting to rain again and more is expected tomorrow. We grow potatoes during the winter here. 
Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: Bern on July 28, 2023, 07:35:37 AM
Phoenix's record heat is killing off cactuses

"Wednesday night ended a record streak of 16 days above 90 degrees in Phoenix. The city is forecast to see temperatures over 110 degrees again on Thursday, which would make for the 28th consecutive day.

Cactuses carry out essential functions at night. That's when they open their stomata, or pores, and carry out a gas exchange in which they take in the carbon dioxide they use to photosynthesize during the day. But because nights in Phoenix have experienced record-high heat, McCue said this suffocates and stresses out the saguaros, which dehydrates them and makes them more susceptible to infections and insects."

https://www.cnn.com/2023/07/27/us/phoenix-arizona-heat-saguaro-cactuses/index.html

Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: janemcgary on July 28, 2023, 10:21:06 AM
It is unnatural for night cooling not to occur in an arid region. Is Phoenix (a huge, sprawling city) suffering so much because of the urban heat island effect (too much pavement) and perhaps moisture added to the atmosphere by evaporation from e.g. swimming pools and air conditioners? It has always seemed insane to me that droves of people move to Phoenix. Not that I want them moving to Portland instead ....
Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: MarcR on July 30, 2023, 10:54:48 PM
Large rolls of inexpensive polyethylene greenhouse covering, treated with a reflective coating, could be used to cover rooftops and windows with a significant cooling effect.
Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: Bern on August 01, 2023, 08:12:00 AM
Here's a great animated gif from the Japan Meteorological Agency of Typhoon Khanun that is impacting its southern islands now.

https://www.jma.go.jp/bosai/map.html#5/29.936/131.66/&elem=ir&contents=himawari&lang=en
Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: Ron on August 01, 2023, 01:36:57 PM
There is a special white paint made for roofs, and aluminized shade cloth, both designed to reflect heat.
Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: MarcR on August 02, 2023, 04:44:44 PM
Quote from: Ron Martinolich on August 01, 2023, 01:36:57 PMThere is a special white paint made for roofs, and aluminized shade cloth, both designed to reflect heat.
Paint would work very well in warm winter areas. In cold winter areas, one would want the reflective coating to be easily removable and restorable.
Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: Bern on August 08, 2023, 10:25:23 AM
Here's a link from Zoom Earth with an animation of satellite images for tropical cyclone (storm) Khanun.  This storm will make landfall in South Korea tomorrow evening.  The path of the storm is also marked on the images.  It's an impressive piece of work.

https://zoom.earth/storms/khanun-2023/

Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: David Pilling on August 09, 2023, 06:54:53 AM
Somewhere it is raining... been a lot of coverage of international scout jamboree in South Korea. UK pulled out because it was too hot and other reasons. Looks like it was not a bad move.
Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: Ron on August 09, 2023, 01:52:38 PM
MarcR 2023-08-02:  Paint would work very well in warm winter areas. In cold winter areas, one would want the reflective coating to be easily removable and restorable

I was thinking of my Los Angeles location, where any day of the year can reach 92 F (33 C).  Thank you for posting the more general case, which is a much better answer.  (The dangers of autopilot....)
Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: Bern on August 10, 2023, 06:47:03 AM
There's an amazing story this morning about an horrific wildfire in Hawaii, on the island of Maui, the "valley isle."  It's a beautiful place and the last place I would have expected to have experienced an horrific wildfire.  The tropical location and lush vegetation prevent one from imagining this kind of event. The Daily Mail always has extensive photo and video coverage of this kind of news. 

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12391903/Maui-wildfire-hawaii-torched-tourists-shelter-flames.html

Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: Bern on August 14, 2023, 05:57:07 AM
Here's a "handyman's special" home for sale in beautiful Sarasota, Florida.  The photos of the inside of the house show what happens to a structure in a semi-tropical climate.  The pink house with the painted flamingos on the garage is a far better bet.

https://www.realtor.com/realestateandhomes-detail/904-Cypress-Wood-Ln_Sarasota_FL_34243_M68517-24726?from=srp-list-card

Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: David Pilling on August 14, 2023, 10:32:51 AM
Quote from: Bern on August 14, 2023, 05:57:07 AMHere's a "handyman's special" home for sale in beautiful Sarasota, Florida.

A "project" as they say in the UK - I wonder if they'd let me in. I've been reading about Mick Fleetwood today, I should have travelled to the edge of the world and opened a restaurant [1].

" approved plans to change 3 bedrooms 2 bathrooms house into 5 bedrooms 3 baths." like loaves and fishes. Built in 1987 with a cardboard roof.

In the papers this week "Housing costs making UK households much poorer than US peers, study finds. The average US household is almost a third richer than its UK..."

I liked the comment that said "it is not as easy to be a rich country when you are not ruling other people and stealing their wealth".

Anyone feeling sorry, donations of bitcoin, gold etc to HM Treasury...

--

[1] he had a restaurant in Hawaii.

Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: MarcR on August 14, 2023, 12:38:04 PM
Here in Oregon's Mid Willamette Valley, we are expecting 103 F (39.4 C) today.  In the 20 years I have lived here, I have never seen anything above the low 90s (32-34 C).  Since most deer resistant plants can take the heat; and all of my beds that are not deer resistant are deer fenced, I need only  drape shade cloth over the fencing.  It will be very nice if this translates to slightly warmer winters. I would be very happy with a change from zone 8b to 9a or even 9b. I certainly do not wish harm to anyone south of me.
Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: Robert_Parks on August 14, 2023, 06:46:08 PM
Quote from: MarcR on August 14, 2023, 12:38:04 PMHere in Oregon's Mid Willamette Valley, we are expecting 103 F (39.4 C) today.  In the 20 years I have lived here, I have never seen anything above the low 90s (32-34 C).  Since most deer resistant plants can take the heat; and all of my beds that are not deer resistant are deer fenced, I need only  drape shade cloth over the fencing.  It will be very nice if this translates to slightly warmer winters. I would be very happy with a change from zone 8a to 9b or even 9a. I certainly do not wish harm to anyone south of me.
Sadly, while the average may rise, the extremes will likely be more extreme...so zone 9 with occasional visits to 8A or 7B...and remarkable heat storms like last year.
Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: Bern on August 15, 2023, 09:00:26 AM
Quote from: David Pilling on August 14, 2023, 10:32:51 AMI've been reading about Mick Fleetwood today, I should have travelled to the edge of the world and opened a restaurant [1].  [1] he had a restaurant in Hawaii.

Here's the story from The Telegraph.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2023/08/14/mick-fleetwood-mac-restaurant-destroyed-hawaii-wildfires/

It is now being reported that the Maui's Emergency Alert Siren System was not activated to warm people of the impending disaster. 

It's hot and steamy here on the coastal plain near the first permanent English settlement in America at Jamestown.  The dewpoint at times yesterday was in the low 80s, apparently a rare event.

On the positive side, my African Costus plants love the heat and humidity and my C. macranthus threw off a rhizome which I harvested and planted yesterday.  So, I'll have an additional plant producing beautiful flowers next Spring.



Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: David Pilling on August 15, 2023, 05:32:22 PM
Quote from: Bern on August 15, 2023, 09:00:26 AMThe dewpoint at times yesterday was in the low 80s,

Something around 57F here today. A warm sunny day at 64F maximum. A dew point of 80F would probably be unpleasant.

PBS wiki covers Costus but we have no photos of Costus macranthus.


Back on topic, first shot of Winter 2023/24, seemingly El Niño is associated with cold dry Winters in Europe and no one is much bothered about an energy shortage.
Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: Bern on August 17, 2023, 09:03:58 AM
Quote from: David Pilling on August 15, 2023, 05:32:22 PMBack on topic, first shot of Winter 2023/24, seemingly El Niño is associated with cold dry Winters in Europe and no one is much bothered about an energy shortage.

The info below is from S&P Global Commodity Insights on July 27, 2023.  Let's hope for mild winter weather, peace in Ukraine, an inactive hurricane season, an end to inflation, and just and peaceful politics, etc.  One can always hope......

The energy crisis: a change in the zeitgeist

"Europe will hit a new milestone in late 2024 once it survives its first winter without Russian natural gas pipeline supply, yet in this "new normal" prices will be persistently volatile and prone to sharp spikes, as the market is left at the mercy of LNG supply, unlikely ever to regain pre-crisis stability."

" What is certain is that the crisis has reshaped the global energy sector permanently, and Europe will now compete with Asia for LNG supply on a much larger scale than ever before, with previously reliable Russian pipeline supply completely absent. But the market will be far more prepared for any uncertainties, and better equipped to deal with them."

https://www.spglobal.com/commodityinsights/en/market-insights/blogs/energy-transition/072723-europe-energy-crisis-gas-gazprom-power-lng-price
Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: Bern on August 17, 2023, 01:48:30 PM
Quote from: David Pilling on August 15, 2023, 05:32:22 PMPBS wiki covers Costus (https://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki/index.php/Costus) but we have no photos of Costus macranthus.

This is the first season my C. macranthus became acclimated to the northern hemisphere and was able to grow outside during the summer.  So, the plant is a bit on the small side still and has not yet bloomed for me. Hopefully, next season it will exhibit mature foliage and bloom.  I will take photos then and submit it for posting on the PBS wiki. 
Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: David Pilling on August 18, 2023, 03:57:37 AM
Quote from: Bern on August 17, 2023, 09:03:58 AMThe energy crisis: a change in the zeitgeist

The article says a change to Europe being dependent on LNG has taken place and that it will be the situation for the foreseeable future,

So they're now relying on a form of fuel that produces more carbon than before (because LNG has to be liquefied and shipped around the world). UK government has been criticised for trying to produce more fuel from the North Sea.

This plays in to the story that use of natural gas/oil and coal are currently at an all time high, despite all the efforts at using wind/solar.

The other interesting thing I heard is that diesel/jet fuel/petrol(gasoline?) are produced together. If they replace all the petrol powered cars with electric vehicles, all that happens is there's a lot of cheap petrol to sell to countries with fewer evs.

Something similar goes on with natural gas that is a byproduct of oil extraction - there are bans on flaring it off - and US is building a network to pipe it to consumers.

Here we are the lowest carbon house in the neighborhoood (my utility tells me), a feat engineered by the demise of the old gas boiler and hence reliance on electricity (most of which comes from wind power). On a variable rate tariff they will pay me for using power some times - one proposal then is a 'house battery', something Tesla sell, charge during cheap power, use other times of day.
Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: CG100 on August 18, 2023, 05:59:56 AM
One day, perhaps, the lunatic "stop oil" brigade will realise how nuts they are. Maybe.

Around 30% of oil and gas is used for other than fuel. There is nothing that anyone wears or eats, no piece of any technology, nothing but the most primary products in this world, that does not rely on oil or gas.

Fertilisers, paints, adhesive, road surfaces, lubricants, anything but cotton and wool in clothing, every electronic components is encapsulated in, and/or attached to a resin derived from oil or gas, pesticides and herbicides, food packaging that increases shelf-life many-fold compared to paper and card. How much of any form of transport derives from oil? Lord alone knows how you'd make glass without fossil fuels (although cement calciners in the UK do run on pulverised used vehicle tyres as long as they can due to simple economics, and no, tyres are not 100% natural materials).

Just take food packaging, ignoring how practical it might be, and cost, and shelf-life, and much besides, where would the paper pulp come from to replace all the plastic with paper and card?

No, plastics cannot be recycled ad infinitum. They can be cracked and start from scratch again, but the energy costs are vast.
Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: Bern on August 18, 2023, 12:05:15 PM
Quote from: David Pilling on August 18, 2023, 03:57:37 AMIf they replace all the petrol powered cars with electric vehicles, all that happens is there's a lot of cheap petrol to sell to countries with fewer evs.

The governments forcing green energy on their populations will diminish both their wealth and liberties. While the governments that don't go green will benefit enormously with increased wealth and its benefits from cheap fossil fuels. While there is a positive correlation between industrialization, carbon dioxide emissions, and global warming, it would be a tragedy to learn many years later that it was not causative. It is rather easy to find a synopsis of climate history on the internet now. It is abundantly clear that there were instances of substantial global warming in the past, most notably at the end of the Pleistocene Epoch about 11,000 years ago. Immense ice sheets and glaciers had covered present day Canada and extended into what is currently the United States. All of this is gone now due to global warming that cannot be attributed to the sparse human population on the North American continent or the rest of the Earth at that time. This period of global warming caused the extinction of many animal species, including the iconic woolly mammoths and mastodons.

I've seen the remains of these glaciers and ice sheet at Moraine Hills State Park in Northern Illinois.

https://dnr.illinois.gov/parks/activity/park.morainehills.html

You can visit Mastodon State Historic Site in Missouri to learn about the Kimmswick Fossil Beds where clovis points were found alongside Mastodon bones, indicating the coexistence of humans and Mastodons over 10,000 years ago.

https://www.mostateparks.com/page/54983/historic-site-history

And here's a link to an explanation of the extent and history of the glaciation on the North American continent.

https://www.britannica.com/science/Wisconsin-Glacial-Stage

If the current instance of global temperature increases is caused by nature, similar to what concluded about 11,000 years ago, and is not manmade, much disruption and misery will ensue because of the activities of the anti-carbon crusaders.  IMO.


   
Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: CG100 on August 19, 2023, 05:30:07 AM
Quote from: David Pilling on August 18, 2023, 03:57:37 AMThe other interesting thing I heard is that diesel/jet fuel/petrol(gasoline?) are produced together. If they replace all the petrol powered cars with electric vehicles, all that happens is there's a lot of cheap petrol to sell to countries with fewer evs.

How had you previously imagined that fuels were produced?
In fact, refineries tend to specialise and to that end use particular types or blends of crude, so that fractional distillation produces a particular mix of fractions - give or take not much they end up with X% of, for instance, Jet A1, Y% diesel, and Z% petrol, day in, day out.

The very small refinery not far from where I used to live specialised in aviation spirit production and produced rather little petrol, which was down to what crude they processed as much as their process.

If the UK went 100% EV tomorrow, or any time even remotely soon, the country would grind to a halt faster than PDQ. Just to replace all petrol consumption would require a generating capacity in the UK of approx. double the current installed capacity. (The figures will be online somewhere, but 2022 saw low output from solar and wind - the UK was unusually overcast and still all year.)
Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: Bern on August 19, 2023, 06:34:11 AM
Here's another anomalous weather event.  San Diego, CA is under its first tropical storm watch in history.  Potentially catastrophic flooding could occur across San Diego County this weekend.  The storm will produce heavy rain and flooding in othe parts of California and Nevada also.

Here's a good satellite image and gif video of Hurricane Hillary.

https://www.tropicaltidbits.com/sat/satlooper.php?region=atlpac-wide&product=truecolor

Here's a map of the storm's path.

https://www.nhc.noaa.gov/refresh/graphics_ep4+shtml/115409.shtml?cone#contents

Here's a map of the predicted rainfall amounts.

https://www.nhc.noaa.gov/refresh/graphics_ep4+shtml/115409.shtml?rainqpf#contents

Here's a map of the flash flooding probabilities.

https://www.nhc.noaa.gov/refresh/graphics_ep4+shtml/115409.shtml?rainqpf#contents

Here's the headlines and story in the San Diego Union Tribune Newspaper.

https://www.sandiegouniontribune.com/weather/story/2023-08-18/tropical-storm-watch-san-diego-county-hilary

The other major natural disaster is occurring in Canada now.  The provincial capital of the Northwest Territories, Yellowknife, a town of 20K people, has been evacuated because of an approaching firestorm. Firefighters are working assiduously to try to save the town. They don't want another Lahaina to occur there.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/aug/19/canada-wildfires-british-columbia-in-state-of-emergency-as-19000-flee-yellowknife-fire
Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: David Pilling on August 19, 2023, 06:37:33 AM
Quote from: CG100 on August 19, 2023, 05:30:07 AMHow had you previously imagined that fuels were produced?

I thought they did it with AI.

No doubt I was once told, but long forgotten, at any rate I did not think they produced stuff they didn't particularly require. I suppose I should consider 'slag heaps' - the huge hills of spoil around coal mines and iron works.

As a child the flame that burned in the distance above the local ICI works was a sign we were near home. Those were the days.
Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: CG100 on August 19, 2023, 07:28:03 AM
Quote from: David Pilling on August 19, 2023, 06:37:33 AMI did not think they produced stuff they didn't particularly require.

I have never worked in a refinery, but suspect that something close to 100% of what goes in, comes out as one product or another. Even the residues after distillation are things like bitumen, or what is called petroleum coke, the latter commonly being burnt in coal-fired power stations.

An interesting article -  it claims to be a typical analysis of a US refinery, but it seems to be high on the % destined to be fuel - the general figure that I have seen previously stated was that around 30% of world crude production was used for non-fuel uses.

Refining crude oil - inputs and outputs - U.S. Energy Information Administration (EIA) (https://www.eia.gov/energyexplained/oil-and-petroleum-products/refining-crude-oil-inputs-and-outputs.php)
Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: David Pilling on August 19, 2023, 04:03:31 PM
Quote from: CG100 on August 19, 2023, 07:28:03 AMRefining crude oil - inputs and outputs - U.S. Energy Information Administration (EIA)

An interesting read - they get out more than goes in because the volume expands.
Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: David Pilling on August 19, 2023, 04:07:25 PM
Quote from: Bern on August 18, 2023, 12:05:15 PMAnd here's a link to an explanation of the extent and history of the glaciation on the North American continent.

Must be interesting to see the line on the ground - AFAIK the ice completely covered England, leaving just a little be of Ireland. Hence there's no natural vegetation over 10K years old.

Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: CG100 on August 20, 2023, 12:31:29 AM
Quote from: David Pilling on August 19, 2023, 04:03:31 PMthey get out more than goes in because the volume expands.

It is like the school chemistry lesson "trick" - mix 100ml of water with 100ml of meths - you don't get 200ml, you get less.

I suspect that the 30% figure includes natural gas as well, and a lot of that goes for fertiliser manufacture - as a source of H in NH3, but how much as a %.........

Bottom line - if we stop extracting oil and gas, the world would cease to exist in any form even remotely similar to what we know now.
Imagine, no PVC for electrical insulation - imagine how much tropical jungle would have to be felled to return to rubber insulation - current production is around 14-15 milion tonnes per year produced on 10 million hectares (100,000 square km), PVC is 50-60 million tonnes and is used for pipes for every conceivable use, as well as electrical insulation.
Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: Robert_Parks on August 20, 2023, 06:28:40 PM
Quote from: CG100 on August 20, 2023, 12:31:29 AMBottom line - if we stop extracting oil and gas, the world would cease to exist in any form even remotely similar to what we know now.
Imagine, no PVC for electrical insulation - imagine how much tropical jungle would have to be felled to return to rubber insulation - current production is around 14-15 milion tonnes per year produced on 10 million hectares (100,000 square km), PVC is 50-60 million tonnes and is used for pipes for every conceivable use, as well as electrical insulation.
I don't think anyone is seriously pushing the end of oil extraction, just reducing the amount of that production that is burned and turned into CO2. As you point out there are an enormous amount of useful stuff made from extracted crude...and many of those products sequester carbon in a more or less long term way.
Also, by the application of heat, pressure, and catalysts, excess production can be converted to other (longer or shorter chain) products, so there isn't likely to be a great excess of mid-chain length petrochemicals.
For myself, I am awaiting the year when my car gets a plug in hybrid option...additional range for the long trips, but the ability to run on batteries for routine town trips...not to mention that my employer encourages charging cars on their dime!

Save the oil for useful high value products!
Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: CG100 on August 20, 2023, 11:44:10 PM
Quote from: Robert_Parks on August 20, 2023, 06:28:40 PMI don't think anyone is seriously pushing the end of oil extraction

Some lunatic groups in the UK are - "Just Stop Oil" for one.
Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: MarcR on August 22, 2023, 11:45:38 AM
If we don't transition away from carbon based fuels, 1/3 of the populated ares of our planet will be uninhabitable in 10 years.
Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: Bern on August 24, 2023, 06:04:22 AM
Quote from: David Pilling on August 19, 2023, 04:07:25 PMAFAIK the ice completely covered England, leaving just a little be of Ireland. Hence there's no natural vegetation over 10K years old.

I presumed that the north polar ice cap and glaciers was circumglobal during the later part of the Pleistocene and your information helps to confirm it.  I wonder what the ice shelf was like at the South Pole at this time?

Anyway, the point is that the global warming that occurred during the latter Pleistocene that concluded about 11,000 years ago was not caused by humans because there were too few of them to make an impact based on their living conditions, which were very primitive by today's standards.  It was a natural event and it appears to have been of a far greater magnitude than anything that is happening now.  If today's warming is caused by a similar natural event and the reduction of CO2 and other greenhouse gases are not the causative agents, much futile mischief will be the result.

Quote from: CG100 on August 20, 2023, 12:31:29 AMBottom line - if we stop extracting oil and gas, the world would cease to exist in any form even remotely similar to what we know now.

CG0.1K is spot on in his assessment.

Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: MarcR on August 24, 2023, 06:33:46 AM
I don't think any sane person wants to ban extraction!  I think it is necessary to ban most combustion!

Bren,

The post Pleistocene warming also left much of the world uninhabitable.

Most climatologists believe that carbon emissions are driving global warming now. I don't think that the ostrich has the best defensive strategy. 
Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: David Pilling on August 24, 2023, 10:55:35 AM
Google says there are only 50 years of oil left, ISTR Sheikh Yamani saying that oil was too valuable to burn. If you want to use oil for all those other useful purposes perhaps it should not be used for fuel.

It will run out one day and alternatives will have to be found - from that point of view the work on alternatives is a good idea. But of course not worth ruining life for people in a few countries so that the many will benefit one day.

There are people who say, the UK invented the industrial revolution and it is right the UK now pay the price by pioneering non-carbon energy.

People back in the 70s thought there was only 30 years oil left - "peak oil" keeps moving forward. When I'm watching my TV And a man comes on and tells me what is going to happen, what makes him any more accurate than the ones way back, who got it wrong.

It is an old story but true that they used to tell us there was a new ice age imminent.

In 2000, Sheikh Yamani, former oil minister of Saudi Arabia, gave an interview in which he said:

"Thirty years from now there will be a huge amount of oil – and no buyers. Oil will be left in the ground. The Stone Age came to an end, not because we had a lack of stones, and the oil age will come to an end not because we have a lack of oil."


Quote from: Bern on August 24, 2023, 06:04:22 AMI wonder what the ice shelf was like at the South Pole at this time?

The view from above the south pole is always interesting. Was once a trick of a piece of software that I wrote.


Wikipedia says

"During the last glacial period, Antarctica was blanketed by a massive ice sheet, much as it is today; however, the ice covered all land areas and extended into the ocean onto the middle and outer continental shelf.[34][35] Counterintuitively though, according to ice modeling done in 2002, ice over central East Antarctica was generally thinner than it is today."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Last_Glacial_Period#:~:text=During%20the%20last%20glacial%20period%2C%20Antarctica%20was%20blanketed%20by%20a,middle%20and%20outer%20continental%20shelf.
Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: CG100 on August 24, 2023, 01:38:15 PM
Quote from: MarcR on August 24, 2023, 06:33:46 AMI don't think any sane person wants to ban extraction!


As I said above - lots in the UK do. We had major protests here to stop the issue of futher exploration permits for new oil and gas.

If you are suggesting that they are all insane, I would dispute that - they are massively ill and under-informed and naive on a scale that defies belief. But not insane.

Where does Ms Thunberg stand on this? I strongly suspect that she is as astonishly, mind-numbingly naive as the rest of them.
Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: CG100 on August 24, 2023, 01:42:06 PM
Quote from: David Pilling on August 24, 2023, 10:55:35 AMGoogle says there are only 50 years of oil left,

This comes up time after time and when you get to ask people who actually know what they are talking about, this figure is based on obscure science linked to known deposits.

Real estimates totally dwarf that.

Stone was never part of 90++++% of everyday life. Materials derived from natural gas and crude oil are very much so today.
Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: Bern on August 24, 2023, 06:36:26 PM
Quote from: CG100 on August 24, 2023, 01:38:15 PMthey are massively ill and under-informed and naive on a scale that defies belief

Touche! Very well put.

"The best lack all conviction, while the worst are full of passionate intensity.  WB Yeats - The Second Coming - written in 1919 and influenced by WWI and the Russian revolution. 

https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poems/43290/the-second-coming

Much remains the same.
Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: MarcR on August 24, 2023, 11:53:26 PM
Quote from: CG100 on August 24, 2023, 01:38:15 PM
Quote from: MarcR on August 24, 2023, 06:33:46 AMI don't think any sane person wants to ban extraction!

.....

If you are suggesting that they are all insane, I would dispute that - they are massively ill and under-informed and naive on a scale that defies belief. But not insane.   .....

Herein lies the difference between the legal definition and the colloquial definition of insanity.  In Colloquial usage, any irrational thought or belief may be thought of as insane; while such irrational thinking would certainly not be sufficient to have a person committed.
Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: Bern on August 28, 2023, 10:55:05 AM
Russia says genetic tests confirm Prigozhin died in plane crash
https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/russias-investigators-confirm-wagner-mercenary-chief-prigozhin-died-plane-crash-2023-08-27/

Why am I not surprised?
Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: David Pilling on August 28, 2023, 01:50:50 PM
Quote from: Bern on August 28, 2023, 10:55:05 AMWhy am I not surprised?

We thought he was dead, until they told us he was dead, then we knew he was alive.

I've heard it said that he has been dead since the day of the mutiny. Then people believe he has a dead man's switch, which when activated will release компромат on Putin.

Did he have a sense of humour, seems to have been the subject of lots of jokey material in the newspapers "What rotten luck" was one headline above a photo of the aircraft remains.

Nervous laughter amongst those who are safe.

During WW2, children's comics in Great Britain had strips featuring "Musso", "Adie" and "Hermy".

How does this Mafia state where no one tells the truth and nothing is as it seems win the war. By losing it?

Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: Bern on August 28, 2023, 06:26:59 PM
Quote from: David Pilling on August 28, 2023, 01:50:50 PMWe thought he was dead, until they told us he was dead, then we knew he was alive.

Quote from: David Pilling on August 28, 2023, 01:50:50 PMI've heard it said that he has been dead since the day of the mutiny.

Quote from: David Pilling on August 28, 2023, 01:50:50 PMHow does this Mafia state where no one tells the truth and nothing is as it seems win the war. By losing it?

All three of the above are excellent observations. I hadn't seen any "live" video of the guy since the mutiny. I was wondering if someone was going to publish a series of puzzle books like "Where's Wally?" (Where's Waldo? in the USA), but title it "Where's Yevgeny?"

I would vote that statement #2 above is the correct one.  The Russian state eliminates people it considers traitors, or at least tries to do so, as the experiences of Alexander Litvinenko and the Skripals in the UK demonstrated, much to the vexation of MI5, MI6, MOD, and others.

My Ukrainian friend at the park where I walk told me last week in his very broken English that Russia took care of Napoleon and Hitler when they came to Russia, and Russia will now take care of NATO.  We'll see.....  But whoever "wins' it will by a Pyrrhic victory - a true wasteland will be what remains. 

"Truth is treason in an empire of lies" - as Dr. Ron Paul likes to say.  How can you believe anything said by a Mafia State?

Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: Bern on August 29, 2023, 09:43:39 AM
It's early in the US hurricane season and a Category 3 storm named Idalia will hit the Gulf Coast of Florida tomorrow with 125mph winds. It will impact the people living in Tallahassee, Jacksonville, Savannah, and Myrtle Beach, and points in between. 

Zoom Earth has the best satellite images and up to date tracking information on this storm.  You can also see Hurricane Franklin in the Atlantic out by Bermuda on this animated gif.

https://zoom.earth/storms/idalia-2023/

The National Weather Service has a good map of Idalia's path and all of the relevant warning information as well.

https://www.nhc.noaa.gov/refresh/graphics_at5+shtml/114952.shtml?cone#contents

Tropical Tidbits has a nice animated gif without the storm tracks.

https://www.tropicaltidbits.com/sat/satlooper.php?region=atlpac-wide&product=truecolor

There's still 3 months left in the Atlantic hurricane season.
Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: Bern on September 05, 2023, 08:56:17 AM
There's another storm now forming in the Atlantic that is projected to become a major hurricane that could affect the US East Coast early next week, and it could be a whopper. It is currently designated as Tropical Depression 13.  

Here's the current trajectory from the National Weather Service.

https://www.nhc.noaa.gov/refresh/graphics_at3+shtml/145817.shtml?cone#contents

And here's the Atlantic wide video from Tropical Tidbits.

https://www.tropicaltidbits.com/sat/satlooper.php?region=atl&product=truecolor

More on this as it develops.
Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: Bern on September 05, 2023, 01:52:10 PM
I just checked the model forecasts for Tropical Depression 13 and almost all of the projected tracks are offshore of the continental US at this time. This is a welcome finding. Things could change over the next few days, so it is worth monitoring.

Here's the link with the forecast models for the storm's track.

https://www.tropicaltidbits.com/storminfo/
Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: Bern on September 07, 2023, 03:40:45 PM
With hurricanes on the east coast of the US and earthquakes and possible tsunamis on the west coast of the US, I have to wonder how nuclear power plants came to be located so close to the shoreline. I can remember vividly the videos of the tsunami hitting the coast of Japan near the Fukushima nuclear plant in 2011.

Turkey Point Nuclear Plant in located on the shores of Biscayne Bay in South Florida. It is a 1.6 gigawatt generating station. It is essentially located adjacent to Biscayne National Park and nearby to Everglades National Park. Without it, civilized life in Miami and south Florida would be impossible because of the subtropical climate. 

https://www.fpl.com/clean-energy/nuclear/turkey-point-plant.html

https://www.google.com/maps/place/Turkey+Point+Nuclear+Generating+Station/@25.4324723,-80.3126881,44336m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m6!3m5!1s0x88d9d97d20f0bb61:0x7bb701b44ddb8265!8m2!3d25.434475!4d-80.3310504!16zL20vMDV4NnMx?entry=ttu

Diablo Canyon Nuclear Plant is located on the Pacific Ocean in California.  It is a 2.24 gigawatt generating station. 

https://www.pge.com/en_US/safety/how-the-system-works/diablo-canyon-power-plant/diablo-canyon-power-plant.page

https://www.google.com/maps/place/Diablo+Canyon+Power+Plant/@35.2116935,-120.8550374,2507m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m6!3m5!1s0x80ecf0fcd3faeb67:0xa0426b7cea05f00d!8m2!3d35.2116935!4d-120.8550374!16zL20vMDRyNTlk?entry=ttu

Obviously, the siting requirements were more lax at the time these plants were constructed.

Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: David Pilling on September 08, 2023, 04:53:09 PM
It is quite common for nuclear plants in the UK to be located on the coast - I can't think of any that are not. UK is a small country, probably nowhere is more than 50 miles from the sea.

(checking, there is one power plant inland, Trawsfynydd (Wales), now decommissioned, it took its cooling water from a man-made lake, they put them near the sea for cooling water, furthest you can be from the sea in the UK, 75 miles)

I liked where they put the UK's "fast breeder" reactor, right on the top of Scotland as remote as possible, inspired confidence. At the moment nuclear power is popular (!), be interesting to see if it gets to the point where they need to resort to such techniques to produce more fuel.

Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: Bern on September 13, 2023, 06:02:01 AM
Quote from: David Pilling on September 08, 2023, 04:53:09 PMAt the moment nuclear power is popular (!)

And just a few sort years ago nuclear energy was a despised and dirty source of electricity.  Now it's being touted as clean energy.  I'm sure the nuclear utilities are breathing a collective sigh of relief that the carbon fixation has, at least for now, removed the spotlight from them and their radioactive waste byproducts.
Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: David Pilling on September 13, 2023, 05:46:10 PM
UK has long and sorry history of nuclear power - world leaders at the start, Mrs. Thatcher fought an epic battle to get a single US design PWR plant built. After that they built none for 30 years. Considerable political protest against reprocessing and so on. Now they are building some new plants, French design backed by French and Chinese money - running years behind.

Somewhere there are people who have protested against nuclear power and are still against it - fair enough. But there are also those who were against it, are responsible for there now being little of it, and now complain about the situation.

In a field where consistency is required over 10's of years, or 1000's of years if you're talking about storing the waste, politicians whose views change every few years are in charge.

There is a gap between what the politicians would like to happen, what can happen, and what is actually going to happen - how they fudge matters we will see.

There was an old guy on the BBC news vox populi this week saying "well wind power is cheap" - it is starting to look like the "world leader in wind power" UK has bet everything on a technology that is not cheap. Energy prices doubled when the Ukraine war started and word now is that they will never be coming back down.

Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: Bern on September 14, 2023, 05:59:06 AM
The latest on Hurricane Lee, a massive storm, is that it will impact New England and make landfall in Nova Scotia and New Brunswick.  The track right now is straight up the Bay of Fundy, already famous for its tides. Fortunately, the storm will weaken before impact to land, but it will still cause a lot of damage. Landfall should be in the late afternoon this Saturday, local time.

Here's the current track from the US National Weather Service.

https://www.nhc.noaa.gov/refresh/graphics_at3+shtml/090725.shtml?cone#contents

Here's the satellite gif from Tropical Tidbits.

https://www.tropicaltidbits.com/sat/satlooper.php?region=atl&product=truecolor

And here's the gif from Zoom Earth.

https://zoom.earth/maps/satellite/#view=35.04,-56.9,5z

Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: David Pilling on September 14, 2023, 09:24:43 AM
Quote from: Bern on September 14, 2023, 05:59:06 AMthe Bay of Fundy

Coyote
by Joni Mitchell

"He's too far from the Bay of Fundy
From appaloosas and eagles and tides
And the air conditioned cubicles
And the carbon ribbon rides
Are spelling it out so clear
Either he's going to have to stand and fight
Or take off out of here
I tried to run away myself
To run away and wrestle with my ego
And with this flame
You put here in this Eskimo
In this hitcher
In this prisoner
Of the fine white lines
Of the white lines on the free free way"

Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: Bern on September 14, 2023, 09:51:47 AM
Quote from: David Pilling on September 13, 2023, 05:46:10 PMIn a field where consistency is required over 10's of years, or 1000's of years if you're talking about storing the waste, politicians whose views change every few years are in charge.

Sad, but true.  The US tried to construct a high level radioactive waste disposal site in Nevada at Yucca Mountain for commercial and government spent fuel rods. It was contested from the get go, ran about a decade of development, then was shut down by not being funded in the 2011/2012 timeframe.

"This leaves the United States government (which disposes of its transuranic (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transuranium_element) waste from nuclear weapons production 2,150 feet (660 m) below the surface at the Waste Isolation Pilot Plant (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waste_Isolation_Pilot_Plant) in New Mexico)[7] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yucca_Mountain_nuclear_waste_repository#cite_note-7) and American nuclear power plants (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_power_in_the_United_States) without any designated long-term storage for their high-level radioactive waste (spent fuel) stored on-site in steel and concrete casks (dry cask storage (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dry_cask_storage)) at 76 reactor sites in 34 states."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yucca_Mountain_nuclear_waste_repository

No alternative storage site has been proposed to my knowledge.  It is a big safety and security concern that there is so much high level radioactive waste in temporary storage at reactor sites scattered around the country.  "Clean" nuclear energy in the form of new nuclear power plants cannot proceed until this issue is satisfactorily addressed. 

How about harnessing the tidal power at the Bay of Fundy to make electricity?

Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: David Pilling on September 14, 2023, 01:34:28 PM
Quote from: Bern on September 14, 2023, 09:51:47 AMHow about harnessing the tidal power at the Bay of Fundy to make electricity?

"The world's largest tidal range of 11.7 metres (38.4 feet) occurs in Bay of Fundy, Canada, a similar range is experienced at Ungava Bay also in Canada and the United Kingdom regularly experiences tidal ranges up to 15 metres (49 feet) between England and Wales in the Bristol Channel."

It is another mystery why the UK has never exploited its tidal power.

When I was a lad the "Morecambe Bay Barrage" was the thing, building a big dam across an estuary to provide a shorter road to the North, generate tidal power, reclaim land and be home to a couple of nuclear power stations. I wrote essays on how the nuclear warmed water could be used for fish farming.

Politicians are frightened of such schemes. Our old friend Boris Johnson decided to build a railway line from London to the North (there already is one, you say, knocked together 200 years ago). Ah but this is HS2, a 125 MPH railway that will take 30 years and cost many billions of pounds to complete. Every few years a report comes out and they shorten the line. By the time it is finished it will reach the outskirts of London.

Environmentalists who are busy tearing down sea defences dating back 100s of years would not permit any of the grand tidal power plans, or even small ones.

There was more belief in technology in the 1960s, ask Miss BOMARC.
Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: Arnold on September 14, 2023, 07:24:58 PM
I've seen the Bay of Fundy.

Quite a sight when the tide is out and the wharfs are so high
Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: Bern on September 15, 2023, 06:09:20 AM
Quote from: Arnold on September 14, 2023, 07:24:58 PMQuite a sight when the tide is out and the wharfs are so high

The Bay of Fundy also experiences a tidal bore on incoming tides. Apparently, it is quite a sight to see.

"During a tidal bore, a standing wave of water occurs at the front of the incoming tide. This wave travels upstream at speeds that can reach 15km per hour and against the natural current in the Bay of Fundy."

https://www.ferries.ca/experience-the-bay-of-fundy/

You can even book an adventure with an outfitter who will take you on a rafting trip to ride the tidal bore there. It looks like great fun!

https://www.bayoffundy.com/about/tidal-bore/

https://raftingcanada.ca/river-rafting-adventures/about-the-tidal-bore/





Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: Bern on September 15, 2023, 06:24:25 AM
Quote from: David Pilling on September 14, 2023, 01:34:28 PMThere was more belief in technology in the 1960s, ask Miss BOMARC.

Here's the real story behind Miss BOMARC. It's worth a quick read and Fran (Miss BOMARC) turned out OK.

https://conelrad.blogspot.com/2011/01/meet-miss-bomarc.html

Nuclear tipped interceptor missiles, not so OK.
Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: David Pilling on September 15, 2023, 06:08:34 PM
Interesting story about Miss BOMARC.

If they had any left in inventory they could send them to Ukraine. Probly they'd work against drones.

"British-supplied Storm Shadow cruise missiles were the key element of a highly sophisticated Ukrainian air and sea attack this week that represented the most powerful strike against Crimea since the war began."
Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: Bern on September 21, 2023, 12:25:39 PM
What a surprise. A predicted rainy day has now transformed into a tropical storm. Wind gusts Saturday night will be almost 40 mph. I'll be bringing my tall plants inside for the duration. I am right in the path of the center of the storm.  At least it is not a hurricane.

tropical_storm.jpg
Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: Bern on September 22, 2023, 06:05:09 AM
There's nothing like a tropical storm to focus the attention of gardeners in its path. Potential tropical cyclone #16 will bring high winds, heavy rain, coastal flooding, and inland flooding for a large swath of the mid-Atlantic states for the next day or so.  Here's what I'll be experiencing in Williamsburg, Virginia. It's time now to move some plants into the garage for safe keeping.

Tropical_storm_16.jpeg.jpg
Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: David Pilling on September 22, 2023, 01:40:53 PM
Quote from: Bern on September 22, 2023, 06:05:09 AMThere's nothing like a tropical storm to focus the attention of gardeners in its path.



"Britain was hit by torrential rain yesterday as the remnants of Hurricane Nigel and Lee continue to sweep across the UK and flood warnings remain in place.

The storm initially formed in the centre of the Atlantic on Saturday but quickly picked up power, developing into a Category 1 hurricane on Monday morning."
Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: Bern on September 23, 2023, 06:10:37 AM
Quote from: David Pilling on September 22, 2023, 01:40:53 PMthe remnants of Hurricane Nigel and Lee continue to sweep across the UK and flood warnings remain in place.

It is amazing how a storm like Lee can form in the tropics in the Atlantic, make landfall in Canada, and then head east over the North Atlantic to dump rain on Britain. And there's still at least two months left in this year's hurricane season.
Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: Bern on September 29, 2023, 09:34:52 AM
Now that Autumn is here and there's the certainty of cooler weather ahead, one can daydream about spending the colder months in a warmer climate. Here's a property that popped up when I was looking at real estate in Florida. Aston Martin, the luxury UK carmaker, has constructed a very high-end condominium complex in Miami.  For only $59 million, you can purchase a 19,686 sq ft condo in the heart of Miami.  That's about $3000 a sq ft.  Of course, the monthly HOA fees are a pittance at $20,931.  And the best feature of all is that the doorknob to your condo is leather covered, just like the gear shift on your Aston Martin sports car!  Here's the link.

https://www.realtor.com/realestateandhomes-detail/300-Biscayne-Boulevard-Way-Apt-6301_Miami_FL_33131_M99661-31795?from=srp-list-card


Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: janemcgary on September 29, 2023, 12:12:13 PM
Hope it comes with a high-end boat for the times when there's a meter of water surrounding the building.
Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: David Pilling on September 29, 2023, 02:31:45 PM
Interesting to see the Aston Martin building, I'd be happier with house A, the one with flamingos and cardboard roof - has a garden, and I suspect the AM flats would not have storage for all my stuff.

"Morgan – The only entirely British-owned and British-made car company."

This week you could describe AM as Canadian. Like many others it was once partly owned by Ford.

Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: Bern on October 02, 2023, 10:19:15 AM
Quote from: David Pilling on September 13, 2023, 05:46:10 PMEnergy prices doubled when the Ukraine war started and word now is that they will never be coming back down.

The morning air temps are quite a bit cooler now with the onset of Autumn and this causes me to wonder about the energy situation as winter makes its way toward us. The Ukraine war is ongoing and at least in the UK, energy prices are not coming down. I came across a few videos with catch words such as "heat or eat" and "s**t life syndrome" and "sleeping rough" in the UK and the EU. Other videos of poverty and homelessness in the US were equally disturbing.  Here are some of the videos that I viewed, at least partially. I'm not recommending that anyone view them, but the problem is large and real and here.

UK video
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BK68yyrKUOA (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BK68yyrKUOA)

US videos
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f78ZVLVdO0A
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7VZ3uzuVZeQ

There are some very heroic people in these videos working to help people and there are success stories. 
Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: Bern on October 02, 2023, 12:10:11 PM
And in contrast with the previous post on poverty, tonight's Powerball jackpot is over $1 billion. I purchase one ticket when it's over $1B. This happens several times a year now. Occasionally, I will get one number and I'll win back my $2.00 ticket purchase price.

  Powerball.jpeg.jpg
Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: David Pilling on October 02, 2023, 05:54:34 PM
Bern, that video "Poverty in Britain - Why are millions of Brits so broke?" from the German broadcaster DW is not available in the UK and has comments turned off.

This Winter energy prices will not have the benefit of government subsidies, the expectation is that they will be slightly below the price after subsidy last year. I believe I can fix my energy price for the next year for close to no cost - the expectation then must be for a slight decline in price.

Things may go horribly wrong, it might be an extra cold Winter. Mr Putin is banning the export of diesel etc.

The general situation. Prices, interest rates and rents have gone up. All will be making life difficult for someone. Whilst debt may be a lot greater than in the 70s unemployment is lower. It is said shoplifting is more prevalent, surprising to see staff in supermarkets wearing body cameras. Although here they seem to have got fed up and stopped.

Apparently the UK is poorer than any state in the USA, but with a population of getting on for 70 million, there's room for a lot of variation in experience.

If you won the powerball, are you going to buy a botanic garden...
Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: Bern on October 03, 2023, 09:43:30 AM
Quote from: David Pilling on October 02, 2023, 05:54:34 PMBern, that video "Poverty in Britain - Why are millions of Brits so broke?" from the German broadcaster DW is not available in the UK and has comments turned off.

David, I am shocked that this video was censored.  It is not inflammatory or overtly political; it simple laid out some basic facts about poverty in the UK that I was unaware of.  The "heat or eat" dilemma was completely new to me. One gentlemen showed how he would take a device for his electric meter to a convenience store and purchase 20 pounds of electricity for his flat. He complained about the surcharge for this device, but then went home to show how it fit into his electric meter until his 20 pounds was used up. Needless to say, 20 pounds does not purchase you much electricity. I had never seen or imagined any such thing before. Another major item was the doctors at the National Health Service and some of the restrictions they must follow to treat patients.  One heroic doctor was interviewed and he was able to do some good things for some of his patients using imagination and skill, but he was onerously burdened by the government restrictions.

I've seen some incredible poverty here in the USA, mostly on Indian reservations in the southwest, but also in some of the major cities, as well as rural areas here in the south.  NAFTA destroyed many prosperous small towns in the south when the furniture and textile factories were offshored.  They will never recover.  True that these areas are not as bad as the shanty towns I've seen in South America, Kenya, and South Africa, but they are pretty bad nonetheless.  And the drug dealers have moved into these areas to help the unemployed folks there by selling them heroine and other opioids.

Quote from: David Pilling on October 02, 2023, 05:54:34 PMsurprising to see staff in supermarkets wearing body cameras

This is another new item for me.  I'm going to look to see if this starts happening here. 

Quote from: David Pilling on October 02, 2023, 05:54:34 PMThe general situation. Prices, interest rates and rents have gone up.

The same is true here. I talk with people like hairdressers and other service workers and they are hurting badly.

Quote from: David Pilling on October 02, 2023, 05:54:34 PMIf you won the powerball, are you going to buy a botanic garden...

The short answer is yes, but perhaps in Australia or New Zealand?  No way would I buy that Aston Martin condo in Miami!  The jackpot was not won last night.  It's up to $1.2 billion for Wednesday.  I'll have a go for one ticket at $2.00.
Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: David Pilling on October 03, 2023, 10:44:12 AM
In my experience DW delights its viewers by showing Brits suffering - maybe they have limited the geographical scope of the video to avoid the backlash in the comments.

(I tried via a proxy, still does not work, 6 million have watched in the last couple of months).

This is no big deal, The Daily Telegraph also thrives on schadenfreude "Germany Now Sick Man of Europe".

Axel Springer is being suggested as a buyer of the Telegraph, which will be an interesting blend of cultures.

Prepayment meters have been a thing in the UK for a very long time - however big business has been harsh in installing them in recent times. One of our UK pounds will get you 3 KWh of electricity.

I gather energy in the UK is a lot more expensive than the US, but food is apparently a lot cheaper.

NHS budget close to 300 billion pounds a year. That's about 4000 quid per person. 10% of GDP.
Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: Bern on October 10, 2023, 06:02:38 AM
Quote from: David Pilling on October 02, 2023, 05:54:34 PMIf you won the powerball, are you going to buy a botanic garden...

We're happy to confirm that your prize has been transferred to your Virginia Lottery account!

Game: Powerball
Date Won: 10/09/2023
Amount: $4
Draw: 1540
Congratulations on your win!

I've still got a long way to go before I can purchase a botanic garden.  Wednesday's jackpot is $1.73 billion.  Crazy......
Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: David Pilling on October 10, 2023, 07:09:23 AM
Quote from: Bern on October 10, 2023, 06:02:38 AMWe're happy to confirm that your prize has been transferred to your Virginia Lottery account!

Quit while you're ahead.

Always worrying if reversion to the mean applies to luck.

Quote from: Bern on October 10, 2023, 06:02:38 AMI've still got a long way to go before I can purchase a botanic garden.

Every botanic garden starts with a packet of seeds.
Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: Robert_Parks on October 10, 2023, 09:15:40 PM
Quote from: David Pilling on October 10, 2023, 07:09:23 AMI've still got a long way to go before I can purchase a botanic garden.

Every botanic garden starts with a packet of seeds.

Unless you have half a billion US$ to play with
Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: Bern on October 12, 2023, 03:06:16 PM
Quote from: Robert_Parks on October 10, 2023, 09:15:40 PMUnless you have half a billion US$ to play with

Ticket sold in California wins Powerball jackpot of $1.73 billion

" One ticket had all the numbers. It was sold in Frasier Park, California, which is located between Los Angeles and Bakersfield in Kern County."

"The grand prize, had an estimated lump sum payout of $756.6 million."

The after tax amount is staggering.  Someone in CA is very happy today.

Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: David Pilling on October 12, 2023, 05:15:50 PM
"The long-shot odds of winning are 1 in 292.2 million. For comparison, the odds of being struck by lightning over the next year is 1 in 1.22 million, according to the U.S. National Weather Service."

$1.77 billion over 30 years or a $774.1 million lump-sum payment.

That's one problem they face.
Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: Bern on October 16, 2023, 12:26:47 PM
What's going on with google sign in pop ups on my computer?  I'm sure I'm not the only person having this very annoying problem.  Whenever I try to sign in a website that needs my username and password, I get a google pop up asking me if I want to sign in with them instead.  I've done everything I could think of and followed every bit of advice I could find on my computer about correcting this problem, including instructions from google themselves - and nothing works!  I even closed my google account several months ago because I was disgusted with them for doing this. I use Firefox as my browser and I have disabled pop ups there.  I added an ad blocker and this has not helped either.  Does anyone have any ideas how to correct this problem?

Thanks much!
Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: David Pilling on October 16, 2023, 03:09:56 PM
Websites can offer login with Google or Facebook or others as an alternative to the traditional name and password. So the popup is not necessarily coming from Google.

Maybe see:

How to Stop Google Sign-In Pop-Ups on All Websites

https://www.makeuseof.com/stop-google-sign-in-pop-ups/

I presume that will fall foul of you not using Chrome and no longer having a Google account.

https://webapps.stackexchange.com/questions/169172/how-do-i-prevent-websites-from-prompting-me-to-sign-in-with-google

looks more like it, requires the ublock add on, I use that and it is very good, although you have to be careful because sometimes it blocks stuff you want.

Firefox has private browsing and I would be inclined to give that a go - if it works then you know the problem is managing Cookies - you could delete the lot but more likely just the ones causing the trouble.

Googling a lot of people have this problem and there's a lot of frustration.

Oddly, being a Chrome user with a Google account it is not something I suffer from. Although I do have ublock installed and it hides a lot from me - like adverts.


Here is someone else using ublock:

https://support.mozilla.org/en-US/questions/1393427

Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: Bern on October 17, 2023, 06:36:34 AM
Quote from: David Pilling on October 16, 2023, 03:09:56 PMSo the popup is not necessarily coming from Google.

Hi David, thanks very much for your insights and suggestions. I tried uBlock Origin, but Firefox has been updated and I was no longer able to find where to insert the script to block the pop ups. Interestingly, I cleared the cache and they went away for the time being.  I've done this before, and they have always come back.  I'll continue my attempts with uBlock Origin today.  But, if these annoying pop ups continue, I'm going to change by browser to Chrome, open a new Google account, and disable the pop ups there.  Hopefully, it will resolve the problem.  Thanks again! I appreciate it.
Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: Bern on October 18, 2023, 01:32:50 PM
Will and Ariel Durant, a husband and wife team, are most famous for their writing The Story of Civilization, an 11-volume set of books covering both Eastern and Western civilizations for the general reader, with a particular emphasis on European history. The series was written over a span of four decades.

Lesser know is their short book on the lessons of history.  It contained some surprisingly optimistic words about history, and I wanted to post them.  The daily news is sometimes the present tense of history, and the Durant's observations are helpful in maintaining a more positive outlook on events, especially during troubling times.

(Quotes From: The Lessons of History by Will and Ariel Durant. Chapter 6, Morals and History, page 41. MJF Books, 1968.)

The Truth about History: History as written has been heavily mentally filtered.  The historian writes about whom or what they think is exceptional and/or interesting and as a result, most of written history has a negative bias.  History as usually written (peccavimus) is a "register of the crimes, follies, and misfortunes" (Edward Gibbon) of mankind.  Therefore, written history is quite different from history as usually lived by most people.  A History of Goodness has yet to be written.  Untold millions of good people have lived and have not had their Boswell to tell their story.  If this had been the case, History as we know it would be much more complete and accurate. "If all of those individuals who had no Boswell had found their numerically proportionate place in the pages of historians, we should have a duller but juster view of the past and of mankind." "Behind the red (bloody and violent) façade of war and politics, misfortune and poverty, adultery and divorce, murder and suicide, were (and are) millions of orderly homes, devoted marriages, men and women kindly and affectionate, troubled and happy with children."  "Even in recorded history we find many instances of goodness, even of nobility, so that we can forgive, though not forget the sins."  "The gifts of charity have almost equaled the cruelties of battlefields and jails." 
Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: David Pilling on October 18, 2023, 07:08:20 PM
Hi Bern, nicely put.

At school every year history would commence in 1066 and work its way through the Kings and Queens (of England). Later it occurred to me that in all those years technological progress was being made by people we were told nothing of, and those changes were more important than the ups and downs of the monarchs.

We never got very far, Queen Elizabeth the first was the limit.

Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: Martin Bohnet on October 18, 2023, 11:34:37 PM
Oh well, everyone remembers that failed Austrian wannabe painter, noone remembers Edith Keeler. Oh wait, there's nothing to remember but that car accident.  Don't play with history, we have no idea how bad it might end up with a little change here and there.
Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: Arnold on October 20, 2023, 09:07:55 AM
You mean Joan Collins as the good doer
Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: David Pilling on October 20, 2023, 10:36:44 AM
Good grief, Joan Collins appeared in Star Trek as Edith Keeler, and had a stunt double.

"But she was right, peace was the way,"
"She was right. But at the wrong time."
– Kirk and Spock, 1930 ("The City on the Edge of Forever")

It is a complicated tale:

https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/Edith_Keeler



Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: Martin Bohnet on October 20, 2023, 01:03:25 PM
I was thinking about a comment on how she gave up on pacifism later... Actually I scanned the Tube a bit and did not find a single scene where the first physical attack came from Alexis (beating away the newspaper doesn't count) - Krystal and Dominique were seemingly far more interested in a wrestling career, though of course Alexis would have required a firearms certificate for some of her remarks placed before the violence....

Memory is a fickle thing - I would have sworn the physical aggression was more balanced...
Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: Ron on October 20, 2023, 02:06:09 PM
I found David's comments about the limits of history education in England very interesting.  Here in the US our national history is so much shorter, but we never got to World War II.  That was fairly recent history in the 1960s, when I was in grammar school.  The last thing I remember studying was the Teapot Dome scandal, in the early 1920s.  It was not until I was    12 or so that I learned (& was quite surprised) that WWII started not with Pearl Harbor, but almost two years earlier in Europe with the invasion of Poland.
Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: Judy Glattstein on October 20, 2023, 03:47:54 PM
Sixty-five years ago or thereabouts, let's say end of the 1950s, I would occasionally be riding on public transportation in the summer, in Brooklyn NY. And would see a man wearing short sleeved shirt, with a tattooed number from the Nazi death camps on his wrist. I knew what it was. But I never talked to him.

And one time about the same time frame my father was talking to my mother about a man at the place where my father worked who would sometimes have fits, disturbances, crying out. I asked why, and my father said it was because the man would remember what had occurred in the camps and could not bear it.
Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: Martin Bohnet on October 20, 2023, 11:10:31 PM
Quote from: Ron Martinolich on October 20, 2023, 02:06:09 PMHere in the US our national history is so much shorter, but we never got to World War II.  That was fairly recent history in the 1960s, when I was in grammar school. 

Well German education started handling WWII properly in the 1970s after the 1968 student protests where basically the new generation forced the establishment to face their past, so my parents (born 43 and 45) did not get there during their school time. By the time I got to school 84-97, we went through multiple age appropriate iterations of the Weimar Republic leading to 3rd Reich, including a concentration camp visit, which I guess face at least 90% of German pupils (Education is organized on federal state Level). But I think the educational impact is a lot bigger than history lessons, as e.g. a nationalistic morning ritual like the US "Pledge of Alliance" is unthinkable in German schools.
Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: David Pilling on October 21, 2023, 03:54:27 AM
In my day (60s) it was selective education, an exam at age 11, the ones who passed went to grammar school, and the rest (including me) secondary modern, which was conceived as a place were the "dull middle class" could be allowed to sink. I was describing education ages 11 to 14. At the time one could leave at 15 and as some of my class mates did, join the Army. Grammar school education was much better.

We were, outside of lessons, interested in history, at junior school (age up to 11) there was huge interest in the American civil war and the battles were constantly re-enacted in the playground.

I wish I had grasped the context at the time - many of the teachers had been in WW2 as had many parents. They were not all enthusiastic about what had gone on. Teaching 20th century history would have been controversial.

The only gun I have ever been in close proximity to was one produced in school by a fellow pupil whose father had brought it back from the war, and subsequently he did fire it.

Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: Bern on October 21, 2023, 06:10:18 AM
Quote from: David Pilling on October 21, 2023, 03:54:27 AMTeaching 20th century history would have been controversial.

Here's a recent quote from the German Libertarian scholar Hans-Herman Hoppe regarding his beliefs on the teaching of history.

"The claims made by my various critics, that I just don't sufficiently know Putin, the Russians, the Ukrainians, the Poles, the Lithuanians, etc. even the Germans and the Americans and their various particular histories, typically appear little more than regurgitations of some official, national or nationalistic, and invariably statist, school-book history and historical narrative as it is taught and promoted everywhere, at all times and in all countries."

Quote from: David Pilling on October 21, 2023, 03:54:27 AMsecondary modern, which was conceived as a place were the "dull middle class" could be allowed to sink.

Is history taught the same in all countries so that it dumbs people down to make them passive subjects?  Or, as people are referred to now in the US, as consumers?

Quote from: David Pilling on October 21, 2023, 03:54:27 AMThe only gun I have ever been in close proximity to was one produced in school by a fellow pupil whose father had brought it back from the war, and subsequently he did fire it.

Guns are everywhere in the US. At a later date, I'll post a few pics of gun toting Americans taken during the Covid pandemic, a time here where some people appeared to have become even crazier than in "regular" times.

Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: janemcgary on October 21, 2023, 10:46:09 AM
My father was a World War II veteran. Once when my brother, as a child, said that the USA had won every war it ever fought, our father replied, "No, this country has lost every war it was ever in," explaining the loss of lives, military and civilian, and the disasters any war brings. This was in the 1950s, when we were told a lot of lies by the government and our history classes barely mentioned slavery and Native American genocide, but there were adults around us who shared their personal knowledge of the past with children who still believed they should listen respectfully to their elders. And thanks to the Great Depression of the 1930s, when few could afford grad school, there were still actual scholars teaching in secondary schools.
Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: Bern on November 02, 2023, 06:50:46 AM
While Storm Ciaran is battering the UK and France, here's a quote from the past regarding another battering and its consequences; this quote from Churchill.  This is timely as we are about a week away from Armistice Day.

Winston Churchill. statement to William Griffen, editor of the New York Enquirer in August of 1936

"America should have minded her own business and stayed out of the World War. If you hadn't entered the war the Allies would have made peace with Germany in the Spring of 1917. Had we made peace then there would have been no collapse in Russia followed by Communism, no breakdown in Italy followed by Fascism, and Germany would not have signed the Versailles Treaty, which has enthroned Nazism in Germany. If America had stayed out of the war, all these 'isms' wouldn't to-day be sweeping the continent of Europe and breaking down parliamentary government, and if England had made peace early in 1917, it would have saved over one million British, French, American, and other lives."

Here's the article with Churchill's quote and a few others on the same topic.

https://www.lewrockwell.com/lrc-blog/elite-arrogance-incompetence-and-willful-ignorance-leading-to-unintended-consequences/

These quotes and the attitudes they represent were never taught in the history courses I took in school. 

For now, I'm sticking with the History of Goodness......
Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: David Pilling on November 02, 2023, 03:37:19 PM
Bern - interesting quote from Churchill, not one I have ever heard before. Counterfactuals are always interesting.

The H L Mencken quote is good too.

How WW1 ended is always a mystery - one answer is "the USA arrived".

Churchill was well placed to see the huge costs of WW1 and WW2. He is not universally respected today. It can only be a matter of time before his statue is removed from outside the House of Commons. Then again the people did not vote for him in the 1945 general election.

The weather is mild for now. Perhaps we will get away with it for another year. Perhaps the Straits of Hormuz will be closed tomorrow and oil will go to $150 a barrel.
Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: Bern on November 03, 2023, 07:52:30 AM
Quote from: David Pilling on November 02, 2023, 03:37:19 PMThe weather is mild for now. Perhaps we will get away with it for another year. Perhaps the Straits of Hormuz will be closed tomorrow and oil will go to $150 a barrel.

Take your pick. Will it be a cold winter or another hot war?

On another note, it seems that Sam Bankman-Fried was treated to some rather swift justice.  Money always seems to take priority these days, especially over peace. 

From CBS news. https://www.nbcnews.com/news/morning-rundown-november-3-rcna123460

Sam Bankman-Fried found guilty in FTX fraud trial

Sam Bankman-Fried, the co-founder of the digital currency exchange FTX, faces up to 110 years in prison after a federal jury found him guilty on all counts in his fraud trial, a year after FTX imploded and practically wiped out the funds of thousands of customers.

Bankman-Fried "perpetrated one of the biggest financial frauds in American history," Damian Williams, the U.S. attorney for the Southern District of New York, said after the verdict. "The cryptocurrency industry might be new; the players like Bankman-Fried might be new. But this kind of fraud, this kind of corruption, is as old as time."

A jury took about four hours to find Bankman-Fried guilty on seven counts of wire fraud, securities fraud and money laundering that swindled customers of FTX and lenders to its affiliated hedge fund, Alameda Research.
Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: David Pilling on November 03, 2023, 03:16:52 PM
I have to admire SBF's ingenuity, enterprise and hair volume. Maybe he is destined for legend like the old bank robbers. The problem with making heroes of them is that there are victims. Media don't say much about the losers. Even less about the winners. The money must have gone somewhere.

SBF has been the subject of "book of the week" on the BBC. The Crypto adverts seem to have vanished from around soccer grounds this season.

We await the first crypto ETF, making it easy for the common person to buy crypto (time to get out?). Which will be the first central bank digital currency.

Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: Bern on November 04, 2023, 05:53:33 AM
Quote from: David Pilling on November 03, 2023, 03:16:52 PMMaybe he is destined for legend like the old bank robbers.

It seems to me that only the unsuccessful financial criminals go to jail.
Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: David Pilling on November 04, 2023, 09:42:47 AM
Success in any crime might be avoiding being discovered...

The man who has a conscience suffers whilst acknowledging his sin. That is his punishment. Fyodor Dostoyevsky, Crime and Punishment.

With finance it often seems crimes go unpunished or unrecognised. In the GFC of 2008, in the UK, money was lost but no one went before the courts, and most of them went on to other jobs.

Recently a top UK banker made a checking clerk error, talking about a customer's private information, she had to resign, but walked away with £2.4M. (Dame Alison Rose).

Anyway, another requisite - enterprise, ingenuity, hair volume and no conscience. I must try harder.
Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: Bern on November 10, 2023, 08:28:07 AM
Tomorrow, November 11th is Veteran's Day, Armistice Day, Poppy Day, or Remembrance Day, depending on where you live.
This day is observed on November 11 to recall the end of First World War hostilities. Hostilities formally ended "at the 11th hour of the 11th day of the 11th month" of 1918, in accordance with the armistice signed by representatives of Germany and the Allies between earlier that morning.

To commemorate this day, let's consider something that is life affirming and potentially life saving.  There's a little known medical test that can diagnose heart disease before symptoms are experienced. It is known by various names such as "Coronary Calcium Scan" and "CT Calcium Test Score." I have read that both former US Presidents Clinton and G.W. Bush had their heart disease discovered by this test and that led to life saving surgical treatment. 

"A coronary calcium scan is a special computerized tomography (CT) scan of the heart. It looks for calcium deposits in the heart arteries. A buildup of calcium can narrow the arteries and reduce blood flow to the heart. A coronary calcium scan may show coronary artery disease before you have symptoms." 

"A positive test means the scan found evidence of calcium in your coronary arteries. This means you have coronary artery disease. You'll also get a number that tells you how much calcium they found.

Your calcium test score tells how much calcium is in your coronary arteries. If you have calcium in your heart's arteries, the computer will create a calcium score that estimates the extent of coronary artery disease. Your calcium test score can range from zero to more than 1,000. Anything above zero means there's some evidence of coronary artery disease (CAD)."

Higher scores indicate that you could be at risk for a heart attack. Score cutoffs are:


https://my.clevelandclinic.org/health/diagnostics/16824-calcium-score-screening-heart-scan

https://www.mayoclinic.org/tests-procedures/heart-scan/about/pac-20384686

I have two friends that had high cholesterol levels and I recommended this test to them. One friend procrastinated and went on to have a heart attack.  My other friend took the test and received a test score over 400, and this let to further diagnostic tests and treatment with a statin drug and closer monitoring of his condition by his physician.

In Virginia, this test is not covered by insurance, but it costs only $60.  A doctor's order is need to have the test performed.

I get this test done every 5 years, and fortunately, my tests have produced a score of 0 - a very gratifying result given how pervasive heart disease is in the US.

Enjoy the November 11th commemorations, and consider getting a CT calcium test done to help you stay healthy.
Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: David Pilling on November 11, 2023, 10:47:32 AM
Seemingly some of the more enlightened branches of the UK's National Health Service prescribe gardening as a treatment.

Remembrance day in the UK seems to have turned into a bit of a battle ground, which is a pity.
Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: Martin Bohnet on November 22, 2023, 09:41:57 AM
Winter is coming ??? .... Have you ever reached the limit of your capacity to lie to yourself about the limit of your capacity?
Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: CG100 on November 22, 2023, 12:33:35 PM
Quote from: Martin Bohnet on November 22, 2023, 09:41:57 AM. Have you ever reached the limit of your capacity to lie to yourself about the limit of your capacity?


LLLLOL

I don't lie, I just juggle in my mind how things will fit and what new space I can "develop"     :)
Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: janemcgary on November 22, 2023, 08:45:44 PM
I just looked at my old bulb database and noticed that, over the years, I had created space in the bulb house by throwing out a whole lot of Allium species. One less Allium, two more Fritillaria.
Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: Bern on December 03, 2023, 10:43:32 AM
Dr. Adam Fields is a Doctor of Chiropractic medicine and he has a YouTube channel that is chock full of exercise videos to help with a plethora of medical issues.  " Doctors of chiropractic (D.C.s) are primary healthcare professionals focused on the diagnosis, care, and prevention of disorders of the spine, and other parts of the musculoskeletal system, and the associated effects of these disorders on the nervous system and general health."

He has one exercise video that I heartily recommend.  It's the 15 Minute Leg Burner Workout with Squats and Lunges for Strong Legs.  He's hosting Coach Naomi who developed this regimen and she leads the routine. The video is a bit over the top with the tempo, but the routine is easily customizable to a sane pace.  One hour a week, that is 4 sets of fifteen minutes duration will bring noted results within several weeks.  Remember, Coach Naomi says: "Legs are important."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=odBGCqteooE

Here's the main site for his YouTube Channel to see all of the exercise videos he posts.

https://www.youtube.com/@dradamfields/videos

Enjoy!
Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: David Pilling on December 04, 2023, 03:48:11 AM
We'd done well with the temperatures (keeping around 10C) until a couple of weeks ago. Since then it has been cold - lots of snow in the UK - but not here.

Anyway imagine my surprise when I got in the car and the computer told me the tyre pressures were too low, the 'air chuck' on the electric pump disintegrated and I was left inflating the tyres using a foot pump. Great leg exercise.

After a session of that, I did an upper body workout moving all my dormant pots into the garage.

People never realise what good exercise gardening (and driving) is  :)
Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: Bern on December 07, 2023, 08:53:47 AM
Quote from: David Pilling on December 04, 2023, 03:48:11 AMI was left inflating the tyres using a foot pump. Great leg exercise.

You should make a YouTube video of this.  Coach Naomi would be quite pleased!
Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: David Pilling on December 07, 2023, 10:53:15 AM
I could have a You Tube channel "Old bloke losing his rag" where I demonstrate my inability to do common tasks without cussing.

John Cleese beat me to it:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_n77eoOfRPE


TBH the foot pump works a lot better if the air chuck is correctly connected and for wheel #1 a great deal of effort was in vain because it was not.

Better exercise though.
Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: Bern on December 09, 2023, 06:37:08 AM
Quote from: David Pilling on December 07, 2023, 10:53:15 AM"Old bloke losing his rag"

Healthy emotional management is a good habit to cultivate.  Pity it is so difficult to do......  Bad habits are so much easier to acquire and maintain.

I've had to add air pressure to my car's tires with a bicycle pump.  It takes 10 to 20 vigorous "pumps" with the handle to put a pound of pressure in the tire. It's good exercise and it does work, but it's not ideal for sure.
Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: Bern on December 09, 2023, 10:03:59 AM
Quote from: David Pilling on December 07, 2023, 10:53:15 AMJohn Cleese beat me to it

Cleese has had his moments for sure. He had a very funny TV show called Fawlty Towers that was well done and highly enjoyable. Much of the humor would not make it on regular American TV at the time. I think it was shown on the Public Broadcasting Station (PBS).

Another great English favorite was Are You Being Served.  It had no connection to the Monty Python gang, but it was very funny and entertaining. 

Finally, there was a series called The Irish Resident Magistrate on PBS that was very worthwhile.

Ah, the good old days.....................
Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: David Pilling on December 10, 2023, 03:32:14 AM
Quote from: Bern on December 09, 2023, 10:03:59 AMAh, the good old days...

In my case "Bewitched", "Gilligans Isle", "The Beverley Hillbillies", "Mr Ed."

Quotas were introduced and robbed me of that entertainment.

Connie Booth (a US citizen) co-wrote/starred in Fawlty Towers and went on to be a psychoanalyst - meaning the writers had some sort of insight into people's minds.

There are many 100s of hotels in Blackpool, on Google "Blackpool Fawlty Towers" scores 150K hits. You can stop in tribute hotels, only some of them intentional. The original was set in another seaside town, Torquay.

Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: Randy Linke on December 13, 2023, 08:55:30 AM
Quote from: Bern on December 09, 2023, 10:03:59 AM
Quote from: David Pilling on December 07, 2023, 10:53:15 AMJohn Cleese beat me to it

Cleese has had his moments for sure. He had a very funny TV show called Fawlty Towers that was well done and highly enjoyable. Much of the humor would not make it on regular American TV at the time. I think it was shown on the Public Broadcasting Station (PBS).

Another great English favorite was Are You Being Served.  It had no connection to the Monty Python gang, but it was very funny and entertaining. 

Finally, there was a series called The Irish Resident Magistrate on PBS that was very worthwhile.

Ah, the good old days.....................
Loved all of these, and many more from the good old days of British humor.  I would add "To the Manor Born". "The Fall and Rise of Reginald Perrin", the "Black Adder" series and so many more.  We brought many of these on DVD with us when we moved to Spain from the US, with our region free EU DVD player not being sure how accessible some might be.  We did not realize our DVD player was an EU model until we unplugged it when we moved and found it had an adapter for the US.  Got lucky when I bought it before we ever contemplated the move as it automatically detects input current and output format.
Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: David Pilling on December 15, 2023, 04:04:25 AM
Very often DVD players have 'secret' ways of enabling multi-region support - look up the model number on Google.

Not sure about British humor, there does not seem to be much to laugh about anymore. Might be to do with getting older. There was a strand that ran through British comedy, each generation was linked to the one before, and that seems to have died out. It was also new, unlike what had gone before.

Most of the classic programs are deemed unsuitable to be shown again. The only one that is repeated endlessly is "Dad's Army", which by some fluke contains nothing offensive. (It is set in WW2, follows the exploits of the bungling old men in the 'Home Guard', there was a US version which flopped).

Comedy now has to not offend and be educational.
Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: Martin Bohnet on December 16, 2023, 08:29:50 AM
Well, you can still have fun with the British - maybe just not comedy-wise. I've been to a concert of "the Prodigy" a week ago and had the time of my life. Even without Keith they just wrecked the hall (can you say that in English? meaning the crowd was so heated up and jumping around you wonder how the static of the building dealt with it?)
Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: David Pilling on December 16, 2023, 09:30:11 AM
"wrecked the hall" - sounds like something people say, maybe they say that. At the moment it is common for people to say "you smashed it", meaning you succeeded in a task.

Tragically, back in the 60s, there was a form of popular music where the crowd stamped their feet in time to the music and this really did do damage to some buildings

(
The Dave Clark Five 'bits and pieces'
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XoRLIJJSG4o
)

Wrecked is also a synonym for having drunk too much alcohol. "He was wrecked".
Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: Bern on December 17, 2023, 06:17:36 AM
Quote from: David Pilling on December 15, 2023, 04:04:25 AMthere does not seem to be much to laugh about anymore. Might be to do with getting older.

Very true, but it is best to keep trying.........

Q: How do you fit 4 elephants in a Volkwagen Beetle?
A: Put two in the front and 2 in the back.

Problem solved.  A bit of efficiency that Germany is renowned for perhaps?

And on another note - the Christmas shopping rush is upon us and the stores are packed with shoppers. Every store is playing the same annoying holiday music.  It seems that everywhere you go it's the same Dolly Parton song over and over again.  By the time you get home it's stuck in your head for a few hours. 

Finally, today is the local caged bird club's annual Christmas party and everyone will have a very enjoyable time.  Earlier this year I had to amend the club's bylaws to prohibit the open carry of handguns at the monthly meetings because it was disconcerting to many members.  There will always be members with concealed handguns at club functions, but that cannot be prevented.  'Tis the season......................

You just have to laugh it off.........
Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: Martin Bohnet on December 17, 2023, 06:28:26 AM
Quote from: Bern on December 17, 2023, 06:17:36 AMQ: How do you fit 4 elephants in a Volkwagen Beetle?
A: Put two in the front and 2 in the back.

A bit of efficiency that Germany if renowned for perhaps?
Don't. I love my car.

Besides, living here I guess putting "Germany" and "efficiency" in the same sentence is the true joke here...
Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: David Pilling on December 17, 2023, 05:55:42 PM
I enjoyed the Elephant joke  :)

Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: Bern on December 21, 2023, 10:26:16 AM
The winter solstice is fast approaching, marking the official beginning of winter with the shortest day of the year. The Royal Observatory in Greenwich marks the actual moment of the solstice in 2023 on December 22nd at 3:27am GMT in the UK. Dr. Google marks the time in the USA at 10:27 PM EST on December 21st. Around the world, many people will be visiting various archeoastronomy sites to witness the event. The Druids and Pagans should be well represented at Stonehenge this year.

https://www.rmg.co.uk/stories/topics/when-winter-solstice-shortest-day

Cheer up, the days get longer from here for another six months!
Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: Martin Bohnet on December 21, 2023, 01:07:46 PM
And it is about time... too bad the minimum of the insolation is only the turning point of the temperature gradient, meaning the speed of things getting colder is slowing down. Thanks to the thermal inertia of the athmosphere it will take about another 6 weeks until we're past the coldest point.. Winter. Not a fan.
Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: Ron on December 21, 2023, 03:54:05 PM
Hi Martin,

Interesting, I had never heard about the thermal inertia of the earth before, but it makes sense.

If I lived where you do, I would probably not like winter either.  But living in Los Angeles, I don't like summer.  Give me the other 3 seasons any time.  I have not had a light frost here in over 30 years, and never a hard one.  I don't know if you ever see pictures of the Rose Bowl stadium (https://twitter.com/RoseBowlStadium/status/1210656552975077381) on New Year's Day.  It's the site of a major American football college game, between the PAC-12 (Pacific coast) and Big 10 (the upper midwest and points east) college conference champions.  The joke here is we can have gloomy, rainy weather up through December 31st, and again starting January 2nd, but the first is always clear, sunny, and 70 degrees F (21 C).  This causes people in the midwest, with their many degrees of frost, to want to move out here.  Little do they know that on smoggy days in summer you cannot see those mountains, even though the air is mostly much better now than it was in 1960s - 1980s.
Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: janemcgary on December 21, 2023, 04:03:11 PM
The solstices were interesting during the years I lived in interior Alaska. We traveled a little north to see the midnight sun on the summer solstice (usually from a great plant site). As the winter solstice approached, each day's weather report on the radio included a downer like this: "Today will have 2 hours and 15 minutes of sunlight, seven minutes less than yesterday." The traditional stories I worked with at the Language Center were usually told in the short days of winter, and Koyukon narrators ended with the formula, "I told this story all winter, and now I hear water dripping outside the door." No wonder I cherish my winter flowers now!
Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: Martin Bohnet on December 21, 2023, 11:53:24 PM
To me it's really my gardener's passion what defines my feelings about the seasons - while I feel the pressure from summer heat and do lose plants to it (Tropaeolum speciosum
died away the first summer and the Pleiones are suffering), as long as we're not getting irrigation bans (for now a hypothetical threat), frost will always be the more traumatic event. Colleagues at work dread cold times because my mood will drop with every Kelvin below -5°C at night and every day with an average below 0°C.
Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: CG100 on December 22, 2023, 06:52:56 AM
Quote from: Martin Bohnet on December 21, 2023, 11:53:24 PMColleagues at work dread cold times because my mood will drop with every Kelvin below -5°C at night and every day with an average below 0°C.

I really like the mix of units/scales there Martin  :)  ;)
Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: Martin Bohnet on December 22, 2023, 08:40:12 AM
That's not a mix. The Celsius scale can be used to describe distinct temperatures, but if you want to talk about differences (every *unit* below -5°C) one needs to use Kelvin. Engineers tend to be as pedantic about such things as others are about orthography... Hi Mary Sue ;)
Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: CG100 on December 22, 2023, 10:13:17 AM
Quote from: Martin Bohnet on December 22, 2023, 08:40:12 AMThat's not a mix.

Maybe not in Germany, but elsewhere it absolutely certainly is.

1°C may be 1K (as in divisions, not actual temperature) but most people would not have a clue (about the Kelvin scale) and certainly not mix the two.

Hence my comment
Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: Martin Bohnet on December 22, 2023, 11:01:24 AM
OK, I admit that came as a shock reading that English Wikipedia allows °C as unit for temperature differences. I have NEVER seen that in any serious text about thermodynamics and would rather give up my Dipl. Ing. academic title than ever use it like that. But given how the English speaking world clings to completely unusable imperial units, what can you expect?
Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: David Pilling on December 22, 2023, 02:02:29 PM
If you're measuring in °C then why wouldn't differences be in °C. You have a thermometer it shows XX°C - so you'd write in your notebook values in °C and then take the difference.

As a child I had Imperial units beaten in to me (literally), I was sat at a desk for the first five years of my education memorizing how many furlongs in a mile, chains in a furlong, pennies in a pound, fluid ounces etc. Anyway this education made me what I am, and I measure temperatures above freezing in °F and temperatures below freezing in °C.

We did hear tales that in Germany they used °K, but surely you'd say your plants freeze below 273 °K. You're in a transitional state and one day people will say "it's a fine day, the temperature is 293 °K".

I had more luck with my Physics career, only the first three months (at age 14) used the cgs system (dynes, ergs) and the rest of it was MKS.

I curse the fools who decided the UK would go metric, they doomed us to a 100 years or more of confusion. All the doors in this house are Imperial size as are all the bolts and screws. I have a workshop full of Imperial tools. We have mysterious units in the shops, why are things sold in 453gm packets (because it is 1 pound weight).

Good luck to the USA in keeping the old units.

It's not as if broad and sunny uplands where everyone uses the same units lie ahead. People are tinkering with the definition of a kilo-byte as 1024 bytes (the latter is now properly a kibibyte).

Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: Martin Bohnet on December 22, 2023, 05:09:17 PM
Oh boy. the trouble is, again, that 0°C, 10°C or 20°C describe discrete states a system can be in, not a distance between them. the "coincidence" that the distance between 0°C and 10°C are 10 K is there "by design" to not have complications in the form of strange factors like in the imperial units. Think of 10°C as of a point in a landscape. London, Sheffield and Edinburgh are roughly on one line, and while Edinburgh is roughly 2.3 times further away from London than Sheffield, would you ever try to say Edinburgh is 1.3 Sheffield from Sheffield?

 And don't torture me with imperial tools. IF you'd at least stay in one "unit" it would be fine, lets say in multiples of 1/16 ", but already sorting the tools from 3/8, 7/16, 1/2, 9/16, 5/8, 11/16, 3/4, 13/16, 7/8 to 15/16 gives one a headache...

1024 bytes, on the other hand, is useful - just think of it as $400. At least in early days of computing it was highly useful and relevant for addressing and timing to think in memory pages ranging from $00 to $FF, a.k.a the address space that can be indexed using 8 bit as pointer. At the end of the day it may still be after all the optimization and branch prediction and what not of modern processors and compilers is done.
Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: CG100 on December 23, 2023, 01:34:38 AM
My background, ecucation and career are all science. I have no problem working with any units in the imperial or metric systems and can generally convert between most of the "equivalent ones", in my head to a close enough approximation.

The first and only time that I have ever known anyone outside of science use Kelvin was 7 posts above this. To be honest, I don't recall anyone using Kelvin outside of academia, although it must have happened - even when I worked with industrial ventilation systems, I was almost certainly the only person that knew why 273 was added to C gas temperatures to achieve mass balances.
In the UK, only a small % of people will know anything about Kelvin, even the people who quote them as the CCT for lamps will generally have not the very first clue. It is, after all, a totally unneccessary complication.

In many everyday uses, imperial units are far more flexible/useful.
I use imperial when wood working for instance - 12 inches - divide it by almost any number and accurately mark out a length of timber. Halve it, halve it again, and again and again, now mark that accurately. All quite easy
Do the same with 30cm.

If measuring something, I remember whatever is easiest - the nearest to a whole number - I would remember 1 foot rather than 30.5cm (actually 30.48cm, but no quick and simple measurement device can measure that accurately.)
Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: Martin Bohnet on December 23, 2023, 02:52:19 AM
Quote from: CG100 on December 23, 2023, 01:34:38 AMDo the same with 30cm.

Well, actually all mechanical technicians and engineers i know and work with think in milimeters, anyway, and do not flinch at all when going down to µm. From an engineers view, an inch is almost a kilometer. The only smaller imperial length unit I ever encountered is mil, which is used for wall thickness for catalysts, and guess what, it's 1/1000 of an inch, so it's almost a breach of imperialism, so to speak.
Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: David Pilling on December 23, 2023, 04:50:52 AM
The Centigrade scale existed and was in use before Kelvins were invented... that'd be when I was a lad in the 1960's.

Actually the Kelvin scale was proposed by William Thompson in 1848, but the Kelvin scale was only standardised and named in 1954.

So pre 1954 people measured differences in degrees C.

Mr Celsius invented his scale in 1742, but outside of Sweden it was called the centigrade scale until 1948.

In the 1960's it was commonly still called centigrade and we struggled to come to terms with cycles per second becoming Hertz.

5-bob on them dropping the blokes' names from units and just going with letters at some point?

Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: CG100 on December 23, 2023, 06:08:32 AM
Quote from: Martin Bohnet on December 23, 2023, 02:52:19 AMWell, actually all mechanical technicians and engineers i know and work with think in milimeters, anyway, and do not flinch at all when going down to µm.

I do not doubt that for half a moment (imperial measurement, I believe), but another red herring.
When I worked in the plastic films/coatings industry, pretty much everything in terms of thickness was measured in microns, or fractions thereof. Only roll lengths and widths did not - m and mm respectively.

Horses for courses. As I said, a vanishingly small percentage of people in the UK have the first clue what the Kelvin scale or 1K is.

The unit(s) is/are Kelvin, there is no plural - 1 Kelvin, 50 Kelvin. The Kelvin scale also adopted the convention that both K and C scales used the same scale, in that a 1K interval was a 1C interval, so the K scale "stole" the interval size/scale from C.

Quote from: David Pilling on December 23, 2023, 04:50:52 AM5-bob on them dropping the blokes' names from units and just going with letters at some point?

Most people that I have worked with have used K rather than Kelvin - the CCT is 2700K is said as twenty-seven hundred kay.
Who uses anything but C and F? Very, very seldom does anyone hear centigrade (or celcius) or fahrenheit.
Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: David Pilling on December 23, 2023, 07:50:08 AM
It is true that people say K and not Kelvin. But do they say H or Hertz. N or Newton.

Commonly people talk of kilo Watt hours 'units' not Joules. Would be interesting to put food (Calories (a metric but non-SI unit)) in the same units as battery capacities (Amp hours (x Volts)) and that unit would be the Joule.

Could link all this with plants, the common names or the long since botanical names stick around after the professionals have set the world to rights and moved on.

Lets hear it for the BTU (British Thermal Unit, 'therm'), the horsepower hour and gasoline gallon equivalent.
Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: CG100 on December 23, 2023, 09:06:33 AM
The calorie that everyone talks of is actually the kcal.

As for kWhr - it produces a "reasonable number" for most uses. Who wants to be routinely talking about energy use in units of 10^6 joules?

It happens all over the place - pick something that produces convenient numbers to remember, what anyone calls it is irrelevant for 99% of the time.

Another hobby of mine is hifi. Tonearms (on record-players) have what is known as effective mass and this varies in the region 5-30 grammes (roughly speaking).
It isn't a mass, so the units are not g, and the convention is to ignore the decimal place.
It is actually inertia, so the units are mass multiplied by distance squared. The real position of the decimal point is ignored to get that simple figure of a one or two digit number around 10-20. Everyone does it, very, very few people know what it really means, but the system works. (The inertia (effective mass) of the tonearm interplays with the compliance of the cartridge suspension, so is important).

The symbol for hertz is Hz  :)
Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: Bern on December 23, 2023, 01:41:37 PM
The WWI Christmas Truce in 1914

"The Christmas truce was a series of widespread unofficial ceasefires along the Western Front of the First World War around Christmas 1914. The truce occurred five months after hostilities had begun. Soldiers along the western front broke into spontaneous truces of Christmas celebration, song and even exchange of gifts. For a brief moment they wondered why they were juxtaposed in lethal combat along the jaws of hell." Sadly, the war would continue for almost 4 more years.

"British Field Artillery Lieutenant John Wedderburn-Maxwell described the event as "probably the most extraordinary event of the whole war – a soldier's truce without any higher sanction by officers and generals....""

"numerous accounts in letters and journals attest to the fact that on Christmas 1914, German and English soldiers played soccer on the frozen turf of No Man's Land."

A detailed account of this event by Will Grigg is detailed here.

https://fee.org/articles/the-christmas-truce-of-world-war-i

I'm hoping for a Christmas truce this 2023 and that it will extend well into the coming years.  It can be done.

Merry Christmas to All!






Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: David Pilling on December 23, 2023, 05:19:43 PM
They were more sporting at the start of WW1. My great uncle Jack was captain of a merchant ship off South America, in 1914 it was sunk by SMS Leipzig, but first he and the crew were taken off and eventually deposited on land, uncle Jack receiving a gift from the captain of the German cruiser.

For his part, he did not rejoin the war, having been freed, but set up the local nautical college.


Quote from: Bern on December 23, 2023, 01:41:37 PMMerry Christmas to All!


'God bless us, everyone' said Tiny Tim.

Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: Bern on December 30, 2023, 01:49:30 PM
New Year's Eve Party at the Brandenburg Gate

Great photo of an iconic location. 

https://www.berlin.de/en/events/3303144-2842498-new-years-eve-party-brandenburg-gate.en.html

Let's hope for a good year in 2024.

Happy New Year to All! 
Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: Bern on January 13, 2024, 04:45:21 PM
Heating Your Greenhouse in the USA This Week

A massive system of extremely cold air will affect most the country this week. The extent of this system, as well as the frigid temperatures is something to behold.  Many new record low temperatures will probably occur over the next several days. It will be interesting to see if the electric and natural gas utilities in some areas will be able to keep up with the demand. Some plant people will be sorely vexed by this weather from coast to coast and from the Canadian border to the Gulf of Mexico.  South Florida looks like the only reliably warm spot this week.

Here's the National Weather Service map of the low temps on Tuesday night when the cold mass is at its greatest extent.

Jan_13_2024_Cold_Temps.jpg
Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: janemcgary on January 13, 2024, 05:07:25 PM
The map Bern shared is a good graphic for understanding the role of high mountain ranges and maritime wind effects on North America. Right now I'm in the blue-to-green zone at around 20 F in western Oregon, and would not be that cold were it not for the presence of the Columbia River Gorge, cutting the Cascade Range, through which continental winds bring deep, sudden cold. The Pacific coastline is about 120 miles west of us, with its mild winter temperatures in spite of the offshore cold Japan Current. The arctic air mass so prominent on the map is able to extend all the way to the Atlantic coast because there are no continuous high mountains east of the Rocky Mountain range. 
Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: Bern on January 14, 2024, 11:02:54 AM
Quote from: janemcgary on January 13, 2024, 05:07:25 PMThe map Bern shared is a good graphic for understanding the role of high mountain ranges and maritime wind effects on North America.

The Appalachians will block many cold air masses from moving east, but not this one.  Fortunately, the effects of this system will be mild here compared to locations on similar or lower latitudes in the central part of the country.  Rogers, AR, which is even further south than Williamsburg, will experience temps from 0 F to the low single digits for the next few days.  We won't get anything near as cold here.

Interestingly enough, the latest USDA zone map promoted this area from 7b to 8a.  Many other locations across the US received similar promotions.  Will these designations stand if this winter continues to have such cold temps?  Time will tell......
Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: Martin Bohnet on January 14, 2024, 02:41:18 PM
OK, now move that cold air east until it hits the atlantic ocean. that will trigger the atlantic trough (that's what LEO spits out for "Tiefdruckrinne", no Idea if that's a thing), and that will drive the cold out of central Europe. That was one hell of a week - frozen hell, I mean...

Seems everyone wants to have the cold air anywhere as long as it's far away. I vote for Russia, they a) are used to it and b) don't deserve it better these days...
Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: David Pilling on January 15, 2024, 06:07:34 PM
Going to be a cold few days in the UK - but it will probably stay above 0C here on the coast. Talk is of snow. By the end of the week the weather should start to come from the South-West again and temperatures are predicted to rise to 10C.
Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: Bern on January 19, 2024, 08:09:47 AM
In den nächsten Nächten wird es hier bitterkalt sein. Dann wird es nächste Woche wie im Frühling sein!


Title: Re: Heating Your Greenhouse in Europe This Winter
Post by: janemcgary on January 19, 2024, 11:35:07 AM
Slowly emerging from an ice storm in the Pacific Northwest. Mark at Illahe (60 miles south of me) reports no collapsed greenhouses, but that happened at other nurseries. I crept out to the bulb house (open sided, solid roof) yesterday and found most foliage looking healthy after 100+ hours below freezing. The horrible Oxalis obtusa that infests the raised beds and comes up through the pot drains, however, looks really dead; probably too much to hope that its zillions of bulblets have died, but at least spring won't look so awful without its foliage there. Snowdrops in the open garden standing up again. Still at least a day before the ice is off my steep road, though.