Title says it all, just curious about the duration?
I read 30 minutes, that sound right?
Diplarrena latifolia is the seed I am wondering about
Peter
There is a reasonable amount online from various studies and what they tell you in total, is that experimentation (concentration and dwell) may pay dividends. In other words, there is too little actual knowledge, and that ideal soaking conditions varies species to species.
Experimentation would be great if anyone has large numbers of seed, but otherwise...................
For what it is worth, I treated some Diplarrena seed for 24 hours in 3% this last weekend. Time will tell.
Personally? I'd be surprised, within logical reason, if seeds could be left for too long (in other words, don't strectch the soak to days upon days, but otherwise......................). I have seen concentrations used (not recommended) from around 1% to5%., and not as low as you mention.
I had good success with both D. latifolia and D. moraea @ 4.5 tsp KNO3/ 128 fl oz (3.85l) water for 20-25 min. I was advised by friends in Australia that longer times can be counter-productive.
D. latifolia gave 195 seedlings from 200 seeds. D. moraea gave 89 seedlings from 100 seeds in 11 weelks @ 70 F (21.1 C).
Seed was purchased from Wild Seed Tasmania.
I have just weighed a few seperate tspn of nitrate here and they vary 5-6g.
That gives a concentration of roughly 0.6-0.7% at Marc's dilution rate, using the fine griity nitrate here.
The hassle with any failures is that if that batch is all you have, you can never be sure of whether the seed was dud to begin with. So far as I have seen, D. seeds tend to be sold in 10's-20's in Europe - so not worth splitting and not cheap enough to try several packs.
Wild Seed Tasmania offers 5gm of D. latifolia or D. moraea for 9.35 AUD.
That is about $5.62 or 6.08 Euros. 5gm is about 300 seeds
They offer an extensive catalog of Tasmanian seed at similarly reasonable prices. A phyto costs 36AUD ($22.85 or 23.04 euros)
I find that this allows me to attempt to grow species that tend to be somewhat difficult without spending a fortune.
Quote from: MarcR on October 12, 2022, 04:13:40 AMWild Seed Tasmania offers 5gm of D. latifolia or D. moraea for 9.35 AUD.
That is about $5.62 or 6.08 Euros. 5gm is about 300 seeds
They offer an extensive catalog of Tasmanian seed at similarly reasonable prices. A phyto costs 36AUD ($22.85 or 23.04 euros)
I find that this allows me to attempt to grow species that tend to be somewhat difficult without spending a fortune.
Then add postage, then add around 30% of the
total cost to import them into the UK - so around Euros 50, maybe a little more, for two species in this case - that is a a LOT of money and even if germination was great, I have no idea how anyone would be able to sell them in the UK - the demand would be minute.
At least one of the species is available in specialised nurseries here at far less for a large plant.
I almost never buy only 2 species. Transportation costs are not much more than seed bought from domestic sellers. With my small lots permit I don't need the phyto. In any case, seeing 30 or 40 of each blooming in large plantings is quite worth the expense
Actually, I think you're too optimistic that the title says it all - I didn't know potassium nitrate to be usefull - I tried the Australian species from one of the recent EXes with a very expensive "smoke disk" and it was a complete failure - partly also because there was only a very rudimentary description of what to do with it - 30 minutes? I went overnight and poured the soaking water into the soil afterwards.... Chemically thinking I guess KNO3 would be a common ash component so it fits...
But if anyone has good descriptions or links how to dose such helpers I'm all here for it.
PS: I've split the garden size discussion to a new discussion, found here (https://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/pbsforum/index.php?topic=374.0)
There are numbers of peer-reviewed papers online about both smoke treatment (via papers that have been soaked in "smoke water") and treatment with potasium nitrate. They show improved, often dramatically improved, germination in various seeds.
I have used Kirstenboch smoke primers for various Proteaceae that were supposed to be slow/difficult to germinate, and had perfectly good germination, but I ran no controls.............
The Kirstenboch smoke primers don't contain any ash residues - there was an article in Veldt and Flora well over 20 years ago, showing how the papers were made - they were burning invasive eucalypts and acacias, a bit like charcoal burning, so more like roasting than burning, and bubbling the smoke through water, which the filter papers were then soaked in, and then dried.
I once tried smoking a few potted seeds in my woodstove that had been burning and was still smoky. Unfortunely, the fire wasn't completely out and the peat-based compost caught fire.
Yesterday I sowed the seeds, so we will see.
three small treatments of 25~ seeds
0.5% KNO3, Smoke paper, plain water
24 hr soak.
Has anyone tried a liquid smoke treatment? Related: https://www.mdpi.com/1422-0067/23/20/12468
Quote from: MarkMazer on October 20, 2022, 10:22:04 AMHas anyone tried a liquid smoke treatment? Related: https://www.mdpi.com/1422-0067/23/20/12468
As above.
As: https://www.amazon.com/WRIGHTS-Hickory-Liquid-Smoke-3-5/dp/B00BHNV8N2
Update:
treatment = germinated seeds
water soak = 0
K2O soak = 2
smoke disk soak = 5
I think there were 25 seeds so not great germination but perhaps under less than optimal conditions, smoke helps with germination.
Statistically too small a sample, but interesting nonetheless.
I have not checked for around a week, but I had no germination in the seeds that I soaked.
In terms of smoke treatment - possibly Garham Duncan, online, suggests burning some light material on top of a pot, though mostly associated with flowering, rather than germination . When I have time and opportunity, I will burn a few dry leaves, straw etc. in something like a can from canned food and then wash the remians into a pot of seeds/bulbs.
Quote from: CG100 on December 23, 2022, 08:50:18 AMStatistically too small a sample, but interesting nonetheless.
I have not checked for around a week, but I had no germination in the seeds that I soaked.
In terms of smoke treatment - possibly Garham Duncan, online, suggests burning some light material on top of a pot, though mostly associated with flowering, rather than germination . When I have time and opportunity, I will burn a few dry leaves, straw etc. in something like a can from canned food and then wash the remains into a pot of seeds/bulbs.
If you can bear to, burn directly on top of the soil and water it in...obviously advice for getting bulbs to bloom. From observation in the wilderness smoke particulates/ash trigger germination in areas outside the burn area plus provide vast fertilization. In directly burned areas, the accumulated seedbank in the soil surface is triggered to germinate. Some species appear to only germinate from burned soil (fire follower annuals that are never seen except the spring after a fire[1]). Obviously this works best when there is a LOT of seed mixed in the soil.
There are forest floor bulbs that only bloom in the year or few after fires...during the shady years they put a minimal leaf if conditions are good, but the season after a fire they bloom heavily and put up a whole bunch of leaves (probably triggered by smoke chemicals/nutrients soaking into the ground) and will continue to to produce more leaves and bloom some in the years following until they get shaded again.
[1] With a remarkably profligate growth style, germinate once it starts raining, grow as fast as temperature, light, nutrients allow, bloom wildly and set seed even as the rest of the plant is dessicating, and lots of aggressive seed dispersal mechanisms.
Found a study about Hedychium germination that compared KNO3 treatment with Gibberelic Acid, where germination times varied largely depending on the treatment (30 days GA, 40 days KNO3, 50 days untreated), so maybe your experiment isn't over yet.
btw they used 25,30 and 100 mmol/l KNO3 for 24 hours, with the 100 mmol/l being already counter-productive for germination numbers. If I interpret your number correctly, you've used 0.5 weight percent, so 5g/l = 0,049 mol/l ~ 50mmol/l, being well in the useful range for Hedychium.
Molecular weight of pot' nitrate is 101, so 1M (N) solution is 101g per litre - pretty much 10%.
A milli-mol is one, one thousandth of a mol, so a milli-molar solution is 0.01%, as near as makes no difference.
If you hunt for long enough there are lots of reports about KNO3 treatment and "preferred" concentration and soak times vary considerably
For all you experimental seed sowers I've found something new to play with. Seeds 'n Such, a US seed company, sell something they call Super Hot Pepper Seed Starter. It's a mix of Potassium nitrate and gibberellic acid. Unfortunately they don't tell you anywhere what the concentration is. I bought it not for hot pepper seed but to play around with on difficult to germinate seed. I haven't mixed it up yet. I plan to email and ask them the concentration of Potassium Nitrate and gibberellic acid in the prepared solution.
Seed will start to roll in soon since I've opened up the SX. Do you folks have suggestions for any seed I should try this brew on? If I have enough seed donated I don't have qualms about using some for experimentation. I'm not much interested in non-hardy bulbs but I could grow any that germinate for a year or so and then send to the BX.
Years ago I was trying to germinate seed that required smoke treatment. My son was about ten at the time. He was quite willing to take over this part of the seed sowing. Nothing a ten year old like better than to get to burn something. Whatever it was didn't germinate anyway.
Jan
Here's the bag of the packet for the KNO3 and gibberellic acid powder.
Another method, which I did at the time, is to go scoop up a good sized bag of ash right after a big forest fire. I did this as soon as they let us go back into the Angeles National Forest after the 'Station' fire finally burned out in the foothills and mountains behind Pasadena and Glendale back in 2009. I didn't try any scientific method with and without. I just put ash on top of all my seeds I planted that fall from mediterranean climate regions, since I had plenty of it, and as some have pointed out, it is full of plant nutrients anyway. :)
Jan, maybe if you can get a hold of Viola beckwithii seed, purported to need smoke.
One first report from my side: My few Hedychium densiflorum seeds sprouted after about 40 days when treated with 50 mmol/l KNO3, just as predicted in the article I quoted - As there were only very few seeds, I didn't have a control group though.