Paramongaia weberbaueri - Bimodal Climate Preferences?

[Bern]

Paramongaia weberbaueri (aka Giant Peruvian Daffodil) is a beautiful plant supposedly with forms that either grow in the summer or the winter, depending on the location and elevation of where the source plants were originally collected. I have been told by people growing these plants that the summer growing form "reverts" to a winter growing form in a few years.  Another person has told me that he has a plant that reliably starts growing in late August, but I don't think that this really classifies it as a summer growing form. 

Here's my question.  Is there anyone growing this plant that has a form that is reliably a summer grower? 

And my follow-up question.  Is there a commercial source for this summer growing variety?

Apparently, based on my communication with folks growing this plant in the USA, their summer growing forms (now winter growers) were originally sourced from Australia.

Here's the link to the PBS wiki site for this plant.

https://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki/index.php/Paramongaia

Finally, you'll note that the PBS wiki states that there is a Paramongaia superba Ravenna from Bolivia that is a winter dormant plant (summer grower).  The name is accepted by Kew.  However, I can not locate any instances of this plant in cultivation.

Thanks for your help.

[Lee Poulsen]

I have seen photos on Facebook from people living in Bolivia of native Paramongaia flowering, presumably P. superba. Alan Meerow has commented to them, pretty much insisting, that they are merely P. weberbaueri. They looked fairly identical to me. Dr. Meerow has been pretty much the expert on the whole genus, publishing one or two new Paramongaia species in the past few years, and publishing a defense to preserve the genus name since it is sister to Clinanthus.

As for the winter vs summer clone, I also have heard stories from various people that the "summer" clone reverts to winter growing after a few seasons. This may have happened to me too. However, I now have an example of a clone, which is sourced to New Zealand, that I was told was winter growing, like my others, that over the space of two additional seasons "reverted" to summer growing. And given that I grow all my Paramongaia in the same soil mixture, pots, and climate, it is surprising to me to see the "summer" clone, which has multiplied and is in two pots, dying down and going dormant at the same time that the winter clones have already started growing this year. I also saw the same in reverse late last spring. The summer clone grew very healthily all summer long, getting watered along with all my other summer growing plants, and sitting out in full sun with moist soil through the hottest days here in inland Southern California. The leaves starting turning yellow on their own when the days got shorter and the nights got cooler. Furthermore, I learned through a sad accident that the winter clones do not like being watered in the summer heat. Some years ago, I had a 1 gal pot with a single bulb in it that accidentally got left out hiding in the middle of a bunch of my summer growing pots that were watered automatically. By the time I discovered it in late summer, the bulb had rotted.

So basically, I can't tell you what the final answer is. But for the moment I have pots of both that most decidedly seem to want to grow during opposite halves of the year.

What is interesting to me is that all of the native growing clumps of Paramongaia I've seen photos of on Facebook are all at higher altitudes in the Andes of Peru and Bolivia. I have yet to see any photos of native Paramongaia growing in the much lower coastal hills of Peru. (Although I've seen many photos of Ismene amancaes, another bright yellow amaryllid, growing all over various protected hillsides of the coastal hills of Peru.)

[Lee Poulsen]

So the new species of Paramongaia that Meerow published is P. multiflora, which is a smaller flower and grows in multiple flowers per scape and is a more greenish-yellow in color. This is the article reference, but I don't have access to this journal: <https://www.biotaxa.org/Phytotaxa/article/view/phytotaxa.416.2.6>. In the article they also move 3 Clinanthus species to Paramongaia based on DNA sequencing. So there are 5 Paramongaia species now. The article where he argues to conserve the Paramongaia genus name is here: <https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1002/tax.12141>. There is another species from the higher altitude Andes that hasn't been published yet that Dr. Meerow thinks might be yet another species of Paramongaia.

[Lee Poulsen]

Wikipedia and Kew list the 5 species to be:

• Paramongaia milagroantha (S.Leiva & Meerow) Meerow
• Paramongaia mirabile (Ravenna) Meerow
• Paramongaia multiflora Meerow
• Paramongaia viridiflora (Ruiz & Pav.) Meerow
• Paramongaia weberbaueri Velarde

Some of these are red, including one that is a bright tomato red.

[CG100]

I haven't searched for any of the papers mentioned above, but very many can be accessed for free via this portal (the paper linked to happens to be the one that most recently appeared in my inbox - two days ago, a paper about Amazon lillies by Meerow appeared - some coincedence!!). You do have to register, but that is simple.

Papers that I receive may not be new - I have no idea what determines exactly what is sent, except the broad selection of topics that I chose.

Martínez-Azorín, M., Clark, V.R., Crespo, M.B., Dold, A.P. & Barker, N.P. (2011). The rediscovery of Albuca tenuifolia, an orophilous species from the eastern Great Escarpment in South Africa. Nordic Journal of Botany 29: 465-470. | Nigel Barker - Academia.edu

[Bern]

As for the winter vs summer clone, I also have heard stories from various people that the "summer" clone reverts to winter growing after a few seasons. This may have happened to me too. However, I now have an example of a clone, which is sourced to New Zealand, that I was told was winter growing, like my others, that over the space of two additional seasons "reverted" to summer growing.

Thanks Lee for your very informative and helpful reply. I appreciate it. 

This is the first instance I have heard of a winter growing clone of Paramongaia weberbaueri switching seasons and became a summer growing plant. Perhaps the two forms of these plants were cross pollinated, either naturally or intentionally, and some of the ones in cultivation have genes for growth in both seasons.  Individual plants may therefore respond to the environmental cues where they are currently being grown and select the season they see fit at the particular point in time. It's quite curious and interesting.

And thanks for the taxonomic updates on the genus.  Let's hope the one with bright tomato red flowers makes it into cultivation.

Finally, thanks for pointing out Ismene amancaes.  It's a beautiful plant and the PBS Wiki assures me that it is a summer grower.

https://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki/index.php/Ismene

In the meantime, I will continue my quest for a summer growing clone of Paramongaia weberbaueri and will cherish it even if it decides to misbehave and become a winter grower.  Or, I'll capitulate and acquire a winter growing clone and let it do its own thing.

Thanks again.

[Carlos]

Hi. There is a guy in Santiago de Chile who claims to have summer growing clones. He is looking for Ismene amancaes and as I can't offer it he didn't bother in keep messaging me.

Just in case wants to try, he calls himself 'Tom Jones' on Facebook, the avatar is a bunch of white flowers which seem Crocus but I am not sure.

As for the winter growing clones, I have three, two from seeds got by a friend from New Zealand, I think, and one from a German grower. If I have them indoors it's too hot, if I leave them outside, we are getting 8°C now at dawn, up to 19°C during the day and they seem OK, but we will eventually get around 4-5 degrees C, I guess this is too low, right?

Carlos

Pd: what if the summer growing P. weberbaueri are just Ismene amancaes? Are they easy to tell apart? Has anyone done any molecular analysis of both forms?

[Uli]

Hello Carlos,

I have one pot of Paramongaia which is outdoors all year. It is winter growing and kept in full sun in winter, the dormant pot is kept in the shade of our cork oaks, it would become too hot otherwise. The plant is very healthy looking. We have temperatures down to near freezing but still just frost free during a few early mornings in winter with temperatures rising well above 10 degrees during the day. I keep it constantly moist during growth and dry in summer. So far the plant seems happy with this treatment.

Bye for now 

[Carlos]

Hi, Uli, i moved them to a more sunny spot. I think that if it keeps getting over 15 during the day they will be fine.

Regarding what I wrote, it is a bit nonsense to speak about 'summer' and 'winter' in an area which is so close to the equator. It is always hot at low elevation and always cool to cold at high places, the difference is when the rainy season begins.

In Brazil or at least in Bahia state the rains begin in November until April, I think that pattern is the most common until you reach Central America and parts or even most of Mexico, where it rains from May to November, no matter if it's a cold or hot place (cloud forests have a certain degree of self-generated moisture due to fog).

To sum up, I think that coastal Paramongaia are expected to grow in hot conditions and the Andean ones in cool/cold conditions. But do they get rain during the same months in the wild? If so, the reproductive isolation would not be so hermetic...

And yes, I checked and Ismene has a pseudostem and different, fleshy and recalcitrant seeds.

Carlos

[Carlos]

Hi again

I found an article in Spanish about the reproductive cycle of Ismene amancaes. The flowers begin to differentiate inside the bulb in December-January (leafless bulbs). The inflorescence emerges around May-June ('winter') and the seeds ripe at the end, in October-November, when the plants are still in leaf.

I found a website where it is stated that the seeds germinate while still on the plant and fall to the ground with a root. The article did not focus on germination and early development of seedlings, but this must take place when the rainfall is higher, see more comments below.

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/262436809_Desarrollo_reproductivo_del_amancay_Ismene_amancaes_Amaryllidaceae_en_su_ambiente_natural

But I looked for a climogram for Lima and the maximum rainfall is from December to March ('summer'). I was surprised to learn how little it rains even in the wettest month (40 mm, March). The average temperature in ° C is 19.7 to 22, with minimum of 17.4 to 20 and maximum of 23 to 25.1 (not really hot, it seems a climate I would enjoy).

When Ismene amancaes flowers and grows (according to the paper) the rainfall is of 12 mm or less (April to November) and the temperature is a bit lower, but not cold (20.5 to 18.3 in average, August being the 'coldest' month with an average of 16.5 °C, and average of minimums of 14.1, not cold at all.

https://es.climate-data.org/america-del-sur/peru/lima/lima-1014/

BUT from the paper it can be inferred that the moisture contents in the soil where the bulbs are (20 cm) does not evolve following the pattern in rainfall. Strangely, they measured the greatest values during two of  the driest months (August-September), and the lowest during the rainier ones.

So Ismene amancaes is a 'winter' grower climatologically and geographically speaking, but for most collectors it should be treated like a tropical, summer growing plant. It is leafless but not really dormant when the highest rainfall takes place, and it should be at this time that new seedlings establish.

I still don't know how to get any bulbs, but I learned a lot. I might search for climatic data for the Paramongaia higher up in the Andes.

Carlos

[Lee Poulsen]

Thanks for all the good information and article reference, Carlos. Lima is not hot and it does not rain very much. The landscape looks quite dry. I tried to go to the beach when I was there years ago in February because lots of families were there, but it was too cool for me. Reminded me of trying to go to the beach in the summer in New Zealand. I think I read somewhere that when Ismene amancaes

grow and bloom is the same time that it is very foggy in the coastal hills around Lima. But not much rain, as you saw in the climate chart you linked to. In fact, that same page shows that the smallest number of hours of sun is in June which is when amancaes start to flower. 

As for it possibly being a Paramongaia, other than both having yellow flowers, they are very different from each other. Paramongaia flowers look like giant daffodils/narcissus with a large "cup" or corona and a separate perianth. I. amancaes don't look like daffodils at all. The "cup" is large and almost flat, and the "perianth" is just several very narrow petals. They are very much like a lot of the white Ismene or Hymenocallis, only yellow. The color of amancaes is a very saturated yellow almost like a melted yellow crayon. Paramongaia flowers are just a "normal" amount of yellow. And the leaves of amancaes are soft and tear easily while the leaves of Paramongaia are glaucous (a little bluish in color) and much more stiff. (I'm not a botanist, so I'm just trying to describe what I've seen.) Also, amancaes only grows for about 4 months and is dormant for maybe 8 months while Paramongaia grows for more than 6 months and is dormant for less than 6 months.

I think your climate in Valencia is fairly similar to Uli's climate in Portugal or my climate in southern California. So for you Paramongaia should grow just fine outside all winter. They do like to have plenty of sunshine. But I keep mine at the edge of a tree canopy or the edge of some shade cloth. The explanation is that they get full sunshine there because the elevation of the sun is so low in winter. But the sky directly above them is blocked. Because I have experienced several times when there is very chilly weather and there are zero clouds at night, when the conditions are perfect to have a radiation frost, if the Paramongaia plant is exposed directly above to a cold black sky, the leaves will get burned and some will even die, even if the temperature doesn't go below 0°C. It doesn't kill the plant, but then there are fewer leaves for photosynthesis.

[Carlos]

Hi, Lee, I have looked for observations in habitat and yes, weather seems ALWAYS overcast during flowering.

I was right about the seeds, they germinate in the cooler yet rather dry months, they are amazing:

https://www.inaturalist.org/observations/115680275

https://www.inaturalist.org/observations/115680213

https://www.inaturalist.org/observations/115678963

https://www.inaturalist.org/observations/95603580

It seems that an amount of 10-12 mm is enough to keep the soil surface moist for the radicle to emerge. Then in December to April the higher rainfall allows the root to grow deeper. 

Evolution and life on planet Earth as just amazing.


Carlos

ps: I might (just "might") get seeds or small bulbs of Ismene amancaes next year...

[Emil]

Wow I didn't know about this plant... but it would be fantastic for my coastal CA garden if I can find some seeds to grow.... hint hint!

[Bern]

ps: I might (just "might") get seeds or small bulbs of Ismene amancaes next year...

Wow I didn't know about this plant... but it would be fantastic for my coastal CA garden if I can find some seeds to grow.... hint hint!

Carlos is going to have many new friends if he manages to obtain seeds or bulbs of Ismene amanceas!

[Carlos]

Well, the first person to be contacted said 'no way'. But I don't give up easily.

Carlos