From jimmckenney@jimmckenney.com Sun Dec 2 22:50:32 2007 Message-Id: <000301c8355f$ded4c370$2f01a8c0@Library> From: "Jim McKenney" Subject: Hyacinths 'Red Diamond', 'Scarlet Perfection' Date: Sun, 2 Dec 2007 22:52:03 -0500 I acquired some bulbs of hyacinth Red Diamond this fall, and I'm curious about what I have here. Back in 1966 I grew a red, double flowered hyacinth under the name 'Scarlet Perfection'. It had the best red color of any hyacinth I've ever seen, and the individual flowers were so double that they presented a flat face. As I recall, this cultivar was offered only for one or two seasons, and I have not seen it offered since. I no longer have this cultivar, although I do have a good color slide image of it. I'm wondering if there is any connection between this old 'Scarlet Perfection' and this new 'Red Diamond'. Several of you were able to help me with another hyacinth question earlier this year: what can you come up with on this one? Jim McKenney jimmckenney@jimmckenney.com Montgomery County, Maryland, USA, USDA zone 7, where I'm still planting bulbs and taking a break now and then to admire Iris unguicularis. My Virtual Maryland Garden http://www.jimmckenney.com BLOG! http://mcwort.blogspot.com/ Webmaster Potomac Valley Chapter, NARGS Editor PVC Bulletin http://www.pvcnargs.org Webmaster Potomac Lily Society http://www.potomaclilysociety.org From jwaddick@kc.rr.com Tue Dec 4 09:10:01 2007 Message-Id: From: James Waddick Subject: Amaryllis Basics I Date: Tue, 4 Dec 2007 08:09:25 -0600 Dear PBS Friends, I have been emailing Bill Warren, the founder of the Amaryllis Study Group. This is a group of avid Garden Amaryllis (Hippeastrum) growers mostly in Florida. Bill sent me some basic info and I have edited it slightly with Bill's permission and additions. He agreed to let me share them with PBS. This is the first one, others to follow. Garden Amaryllis -Hippeastrum - Basics 1. Easy Outdoor Forcing in Florida and Consecutive Blooming for Holidays by Bill Warren of the Amaryllis Study Group My most basic instruction for hybrid Hippeastrum is plant the bulb whether in a pot or ground in well draining soil so the widest part of the bulb is the soil line (half or more of the bulb is above the soil.). Use sandy soil; many clay soils do not drain well. A very nice lady from Palm Bay, Florida, USA shared a simply great way to bring amaryllis into bloom in beds or pots in Florida. She pulls the bulbs out of the ground and lays them on the grass in the back yard for a MONTH to a MONTH and a HALF. THEN she replants (widest part of the bulb as the soil line). NO, she DOES NOT cut off the leaves. YES, she has used both sun and shade to lay them in. They bloom 4 to 5 weeks later. YES, she has done this for years. She does give at least a couple of months in the growing stage with the new leaves after blooming before unplanting the bulbs in maybe late June or July (in the northern hemisphere). YES, she does this for any time of year including Christmas. YES, she plants them back in the ground or into pots for blooming (so if you are in Chicago and want to force some of your outdoor garden amaryllis [Hippeastrum] in pots for fall and winter blooming this will be EASY). What? You don't have a bed of Hippeastrum in your garden? Is this SIMPLE enough for us ? Where ever you are in whatever state, city, country, or growing zone; please let me know how well this works for you. REMEMBER that leaves and flower stalks have enough water in them to freeze (but not enough water in the bulb) in an air freeze. So, either replant in a pot or be prepared to cut a growing flower stalk for a bud vase if a freeze is predicted. First results indicate it works on a wide range of medium and large flowered hybrids, but do not use too young (5 + years) or small a bulb. Since different varieties have different size mature bulbs, I can't tell you what measurements. This has been successful in Miami, Land O' Lakes, Ocala, Gainesville. Let me know if I can add your location to the list. How to use this information? Pick the date you want your bulb to bloom; back up 4-5 weeks and mark your calendar for the replanting date. Then back up 4 to 6 weeks and mark your calendar as the unplanting date. You can do anniversaries and birthdays and even tighten the bloom period for spring weddings with similar figuring. And how about the date of that flower show you want to enter. Enter your amaryllis in bloom in a fall or midsummer show. Be prepared to answer "How'd you do dat?". Holidays will look like this: New Years/Christmas = Replanting day --- November 20 --- Unplanting day --- October 05 Thanksgiving = Replanting day --- October 15 --- Unplanting day --- September 01 Halloween = Replanting day --- September 10 --- Unplanting day --- August 01 Halloween & Thanksgiving are a great time to have orange & lavender amaryllis flowers in the house. Yes, I know Dutch Hippeastrum catalogs idea of lavender color is mostly wishful thinking. The above is really easy, right? What if you replant the bulb outside and want the flowers inside ? Cut your flower scapes (stalks) just before the holiday and keep the water in the vase fresh by changing it every one to three days. What if you grow amaryllis inside in pots ? Use the same forcing technique you have been using OR unplant the bulb lay it on a shelf where it gets enough air to keep from molding (darkness is not necessary nor do you cut the leaves in this case) and then use approximately the same date schedule planting in a new larger deeper pot with fresh sandy soil and potting soil. You could use this plan to take four bulbs from smaller pots and put them in a 15" or larger pot. You will be surprised how much they will appreciate the extra soil depth. NOW let us get a little fancier. You have in your garden or deep pot a nice big bulb that you have been growing several years and it gives you plenty of leaves in the growing season after blooming every year because you have the bulbs planted with the widest part of the bulb as the soil line. September 1 -- Unplant it October 12 ---- Replant it in the ground or a deep pot just before Thanksgiving ---- cut the scapes for a vase and cut the neck, flower stalks, & leaves off 1/4 inch above the top of the bulb ---- Dec. 20 --- Cut the new scapes and put them in a vase or if the bulb is in a pot display the flowers through Jan. 2 and then cut the flowers for a vase (make sure the leaves are again cut to 1/4 inch above the top of the bulb) ---- when Valentines Day comes, you will have a third set of scapes (stalks) of flowers. Different varieties will have shorter or longer times from cutting to blooming. Joker, the beautiful floriferous red/white double is extremely fast for instance so practice your timing. If you keep your house cooler than average the flowers will grow slower and have taller scapes. If you keep your house warmer than average the flowers will mature faster. Same is true from beds in south to north Florida in the late fall and winter. If someone you know has bought a house in the last 5 years, give them an amaryllis bulb and teach them how much fun and beauty they can produce over the years as their flower beds slowly spread. Reply to: amstgrp@yahoo.com -- Dr. James W. Waddick 8871 NW Brostrom Rd. Kansas City Missouri 64152-2711 USA Ph. 816-746-1949 Zone 5 Record low -23F Summer 100F + From jwaddick@kc.rr.com Tue Dec 4 09:15:28 2007 Message-Id: From: James Waddick Subject: Amaryllis Basics II - Slivering Date: Tue, 4 Dec 2007 08:14:27 -0600 Dear PBS Friends, Here's part 2. I hope this will generate some comments on use in other bulbs and in other parts of the world.How widely do these techniques work? Jim W. Garden Amaryllis - Hippeastrum Basics 2.Propagation: Slivering Technique by Bill Warren of the Amaryllis Study Group This method keeps the "mother" bulb alive and blooming while you wait for mature offspring (clones). I developed it from existing vegetative cloning techniques when I did one and had a crop failure and could get no more of that variety. I developed a great technique I call 'Slivering' where you take a sliver from the bottom corner of the whole bulb right to the center You can take up to 4 Slivers without harming the original bulb. Keep them thin (width of one root) and make sure they each have some of the bulb scales, root crown, a single whole root or 2, and the stem/base in the center. It is like making your own offsets. Soak these slivers in the following chamomile tea solution and use that solution for watering for the first 6 months (2 bags of chamomile tea and one bag of regular tea brewed and diluted into a two 2 liter bottles of water. These 'slivers' can be planted on their flat sides in the garden in Florida with a 1/4 inch of sand on top. This will make some of the fastest growing bulblets you have ever had with as many as 4 bulblets from the growing points of each sliver. You will get faster growth if you sprout your seeds & grow them to maturity in the same 12 inch deep container and do NOT let the temperature go below 70 degrees F at night and around 80 F daytime for continuous growth year round. Soil is 50% + well draining sand some perlite a few handfuls of well rotted manure a little above your bottom drainage layer which I use stiff leaves like live oak and pine straw. You get small but mature blooming Hippeastrum bulbs in 2 years instead of 3 or 4. Always keep your bulbs half or more above the soil as it will make a difference if the soil compacts on the upper curve surface of the Hippeastrum bulb. If you know someone who bought a house in the last 5 years give them a Hippeastrum bulb and teach them how easy it is to grow a bed through the years and share the simple techniques to make them bloom through the year. Each one teach one. Bill Warren Reply to: Warren@iag.net or amstgrp@yahoo.com -- Dr. James W. Waddick 8871 NW Brostrom Rd. Kansas City Missouri 64152-2711 USA Ph. 816-746-1949 Zone 5 Record low -23F Summer 100F + From jwaddick@kc.rr.com Tue Dec 4 09:15:35 2007 Message-Id: From: James Waddick Subject: Amaryllis Basics III - Vase Culture Date: Tue, 4 Dec 2007 08:15:23 -0600 Dear PBS, This is the third/final article. Can this be done with any other bulbs? Jim W. Garden Amaryllis - Hippeastrum Basics 3. Vase culture: Breeder's vase techniques for Amaryllis (Hippeastrum) and others. by Bill Warren of the Amaryllis Study Group You can culture Amaryllis (Hippeastrum)and other similar plants to produce seed from cut flower scapes. Works with hollow scapes only. Cut the scape (with a clean knife) so that it is as long as possible. Place into a vase with only enough clean, plain, fresh water to immerse 1-2 inches above of the cut end of the scape. It does not need sugar or anything else. Change the water every third day. This keeps the "micro moat monsters' from incubating and invading the scape to eat it from the inside. Just use plain water and change it every one to three days. I will test chamomile tea as a water treatment to prevent "micro moat monster" growth in vases shortly. A proper controlled test of chemicals to control the mmm (micro moat monsters) was conducted by UNC & U of F and found that the basic ingredients needed were an antifungal, an anti bacterial, and an antivirus. Vitamin C and aspirin crushed will do the trick. However If you keep it simple FRESH WATER, no sugar (what about the carbs etc, in the plant juices coming out of the scape - yes, changing the water in 3 days or less interrupts the incubation period), amazingly scapes will last longer in the vase than on the bulb. One very interesting line of inquiry when you are pollinating (especially) and growing your seeds in a vase is to use very dilute solutions of the chemicals used for tissue culture and creating polyploidism. Well here we have a simple system that should use exceedingly low concentrations of these dangerous chemicals (possibly a hundredth or a thousandth of dilution for external drenches) to go right up the scape directly to the ovary (seed pod) to change the seeds before or during pollination. It is 1931 again and you have a choice of tissue or vase culture. Which is more dangerous ? Which needs more sterile conditions. Cut the scape for the vase before the bud capsule has opened. Yes; it will go all the way through bloom and seed formation if the water is not contaminated with bacteria, molds, or viruses. So far all of my investigation techniques are minimalist and can be done by any interested individual in their garden or greenhouse. Understanding why they work will allow them to be very easily scaled up for commercial facilities so we are on a level field with the Dutch and South African companies in finding new varieties or starting a wide ranging breeding program with new Hippeastrum cultivars. It isn't tissue culture, but who knows what magic lurks in the genes of Hippeastrum (Apologies Shadow). Go for it with some of the other amaryllids you have in your collections. I have used it with the fast blooming rain lilies-taking flowers or just pollen for my flowers from bulbs by the road side. Even if you stick to species and are not interested in hybrids using dilute PGRs, plant growth regulators, in a vase may give you a whole new approach for changing and improving. How about that = Vase Culture. Good Fortune to you, Bill Warren = Amaryllis Study Group amstgrp@yahoo.com Questions welcome. Answers praised. -- Dr. James W. Waddick 8871 NW Brostrom Rd. Kansas City Missouri 64152-2711 USA Ph. 816-746-1949 Zone 5 Record low -23F Summer 100F + From jimmckenney@jimmckenney.com Tue Dec 4 10:29:43 2007 Message-Id: <001801c8368a$b3ab8bd0$2f01a8c0@Library> From: "Jim McKenney" Subject: wind Date: Tue, 4 Dec 2007 10:31:10 -0500 I'll bet a lot of us have wind stories to tell after the last few days. I looked out into the garden late yesterday and saw that all of the long runners of my forty foot pergola were on the ground, as are the cross pieces. The climbing roses they previously supported hung in thick, impenetrable masses. Gardening is a blood sport, and I'll probably lose a pint or so before I get all those roses back up in place. Jim McKenney jimmckenney@jimmckenney.com Montgomery County, Maryland, USA, USDA zone 7, where crocuses and camellias are still blooming in the open garden. My Virtual Maryland Garden http://www.jimmckenney.com BLOG! http://mcwort.blogspot.com/ Webmaster Potomac Valley Chapter, NARGS Editor PVC Bulletin http://www.pvcnargs.org Webmaster Potomac Lily Society http://www.potomaclilysociety.org From jglatt@hughes.net Tue Dec 4 12:20:35 2007 Message-Id: <47558C19.7020002@hughes.net> From: Judy Glattstein Subject: Red-Flowered Hyacinths Date: Tue, 04 Dec 2007 12:19:21 -0500 The checklist offers only two red-named hyacinths: Red Beauty, introduced 1977, flowers rhodonite-red fading into spirea-red, stem bronze-green and Red Pearl, sport of Pink Pearl, introduced 1984, flowers rhodonite-red fading into spirea-red, also with a bronze-green stem. For Scarlet Perfection it notes that one should see Hollyhock, which, it turns out, is a sport of Tubergen's Scarlet. Hollyhock apparently was described in 1936 but not introduced until 1950. Flowers with redoubled corollas, sheathed one into another, same color as Tubergen's Scarlet. Tubergen's Scarlet was introduced in 1920, having a small, slender spike of crimson-red flowers, good for early forcing, and is a sport of Distinction. Jim, if you don't mind I'll stop here, rather than adding a description for Distinction. Judy in New Jersey where the skies are grey and little white flakes are drifting around like the inside of a snow globe. From jimmckenney@jimmckenney.com Tue Dec 4 13:00:48 2007 Message-Id: <001901c8369f$401d6f70$2f01a8c0@Library> From: "Jim McKenney" Subject: Red-Flowered Hyacinths Date: Tue, 4 Dec 2007 12:58:16 -0500 Thanks, Judy. I've never seen 'Scarlet Perfection' and 'Hollyhock' side by side, but I've grown 'Hollyhock' for years and never had any reason to think it might be the same as 'Scarlet Perfection'. Yet what you report suggests that they are both pieces of one original plant. I was aware that 'Scarlet Perfection' was a sport of 'Tubergen's Scarlet'. So if I understand you, all of these are sports of 'Distinction'? And is 'Red Diamond' a more recent sport of the same group? Hyacinth colors are tricky and no doubt have a lot to do with the temperature at which the plants have been grown and the light conditions when they are seen. The yellows in particular seem variable in my garden in this respect: one year the plants will be yellow, another year they will be a creamy white. I like them all. Jim McKenney jimmckenney@jimmckenney.com Montgomery County, Maryland, USA, USDA zone 7, where it looks as if bulb planting will continue right up to the deadline. My Virtual Maryland Garden http://www.jimmckenney.com BLOG! http://mcwort.blogspot.com/ Webmaster Potomac Valley Chapter, NARGS Editor PVC Bulletin http://www.pvcnargs.org Webmaster Potomac Lily Society http://www.potomaclilysociety.org From jimmckenney@jimmckenney.com Tue Dec 4 14:39:45 2007 Message-Id: <001a01c836ad$952c2700$2f01a8c0@Library> From: "Jim McKenney" Subject: Amaryllis Basics II - Slivering Date: Tue, 4 Dec 2007 14:40:51 -0500 Jim, there is an abrupt transition in the "Slivering" text which confused me. The initial text talks about slivering; then there is a paragraph which seems to be talking about raising plants from seed. That first section recommends placing the slivers on their sides; the second section warns against soil above the side of the bulb. What's what? Jim McKenney jimmckenney@jimmckenney.com Montgomery County, Maryland, USA, USDA zone 7, where the wind finally seems to have died down. My Virtual Maryland Garden http://www.jimmckenney.com BLOG! http://mcwort.blogspot.com/ Webmaster Potomac Valley Chapter, NARGS Editor PVC Bulletin http://www.pvcnargs.org Webmaster Potomac Lily Society http://www.potomaclilysociety.org From jwaddick@kc.rr.com Wed Dec 5 09:00:53 2007 Message-Id: From: James Waddick Subject: Amaryllis Basics II - Slivering Date: Tue, 4 Dec 2007 22:31:22 -0600 >Jim, there is an abrupt transition in the "Slivering" text which confused >me. The initial text talks about slivering; then there is a paragraph which >seems to be talking about raising plants from seed. > >That first section recommends placing the slivers on their sides; the second >section warns against soil above the side of the bulb. > >What's what? Jim McK, Check with Bill Warren. Warren@iag.net or amstgrp@yahoo.com Best Jim W. -- Dr. James W. Waddick 8871 NW Brostrom Rd. Kansas City Missouri 64152-2711 USA Ph. 816-746-1949 Zone 5 Record low -23F Summer 100F + From jimmckenney@jimmckenney.com Wed Dec 5 22:31:51 2007 Message-Id: <000001c837b8$bee50790$2f01a8c0@Library> From: "Jim McKenney" Subject: Winter cheer Date: Wed, 5 Dec 2007 22:33:16 -0500 The garden is under snow tonight, and I probably won't be doing much outdoor gardening tomorrow. I've been killing time this evening looking at You Tube videos. Every once and a while something amazing turns up. Here's one on a winter theme, one I want to share with everyone: it's a recording made in 1931 of Vita Sackville-West reading from her poem The Land. The first passage is from "Winter", the second from "Spring". http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AjXvkRhoXXs I'm posting this to both Alpine-L and to the PBS list, so some of you might get this twice. Jim McKenney jimmckenney@jimmckenney.com Montgomery County, Maryland, USA, USDA zone 7 where there are Scilla and Crocus blooming out there under the snow. My Virtual Maryland Garden http://www.jimmckenney.com BLOG! http://mcwort.blogspot.com/ Webmaster Potomac Valley Chapter, NARGS Editor PVC Bulletin http://www.pvcnargs.org Webmaster Potomac Lily Society http://www.potomaclilysociety.org Jim McKenney jimmckenney@jimmckenney.com Montgomery County, Maryland, USA, USDA zone 7 My Virtual Maryland Garden http://www.jimmckenney.com BLOG! http://mcwort.blogspot.com/ Webmaster Potomac Valley Chapter, NARGS Editor PVC Bulletin http://www.pvcnargs.org Webmaster Potomac Lily Society http://www.potomaclilysociety.org From gardenstreet184@yahoo.com Thu Dec 6 01:20:08 2007 Message-Id: <382138.9531.qm@web36408.mail.mud.yahoo.com> From: "C.J. Teevan" Subject: Casablanca Lily Seeds Date: Wed, 5 Dec 2007 22:20:07 -0800 (PST) Can someone tell me if seeds collected from Casablanca Lily blooms this past summer and saved in a plastic bag (stored at room temperature) can be planted and grown indoors this winter under lights? Where can I find information on maxing out the germination rate? I am fairly new to this. Perhaps a Bulb forum is not the ideal group to ask -- who would be better? --------------------------------- Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage. From khixson@nu-world.com Thu Dec 6 03:11:36 2007 Message-Id: <4757AEB3.6070302@nu-world.com> From: Kenneth Hixson Subject: Casablanca Lily Seeds Date: Thu, 06 Dec 2007 00:11:31 -0800 C.J. Teevan wrote: > Can someone tell me if seeds collected from Casablanca Lily blooms this past summer and saved in a plastic bag (stored at room temperature) can be planted and grown indoors this winter under lights? > > Where can I find information on maxing out the germination rate? > > I am fairly new to this. Perhaps a Bulb forum is not the ideal group to ask -- who would be better? CJ, lilies are bulbs. There is a lily list on Yahoo, so it may perhaps be more specialized. Casablanca is an oriental hybrid lily, and the seeds need a warm moist period of 2-3 months (depending on how warm), followed by a cool period at about 45F for about 2 months. I normally use pumice and peat, just barely moist, in the plastic bag, during these periods. This probably means the seeds will not form leaves until about April, and will be too small to plant outside next spring unless protected. There are files on germinating seeds of lilies at the Yahoo lilylist homepage, at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Lilium/ at http://members.shaw.ca/lilynet/netlil/id52.htm at http://www.lilyseed.com/species and on the North American Lily Society homepage at http://www.lilies.org If you need further help, email me directly. Ken From dells@voicenet.com Thu Dec 6 09:05:59 2007 Message-Id: <28945.74.94.19.117.1196949950.squirrel@webmail.voicenet.com> From: dells@voicenet.com Subject: BX Payments Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2007 09:05:50 -0500 (EST) Dear Members, As we near the end of the year, I ask that you look at your records and update your payments for the BX. Why not include your payments with your membership renewal? If you are not sure what you owe, please contact treasurer Arnold Trachtenberg. Best wishes, Dell Dell Sherk, Director, PBS BX From toadlily@olywa.net Fri Dec 7 15:54:09 2007 Message-Id: <4759B2F6.6090903@olywa.net> From: Laura & Dave Subject: Off topic - Southwest Washington flood Date: Fri, 07 Dec 2007 12:54:14 -0800 Hi folks We live just a few miles north of the incredible area of flood and wind damage that occurred the first of this week. The coastal areas had 100 mph winds (not just gusts), and the whole area had 4-6 inches of rain in ~36 hours. The floods at least equal the worst on record, and because of the rapid rise of water (5 feet in 2 1/2 hours at one location), the damage is severe. The farms and dairy farms have been hard hit, and have immediate problems with wet bedding, wet feed and animal disposal. Our one north/south interstate was closed for 3 days, and has only one lane open in each direction, for large trucks only. If you know people in the area, especially if they live (lived) near the scenic rivers, you might want to check on them. However, many areas still have no phones or power. The response has been good, from days of helicopters rescuing stranded residents, to supplies being collected and distributed where needed. Dave Brastow, Tumwater, Washington, 7A (lucky this time!) From msittner@mcn.org Sat Dec 8 11:01:43 2007 Message-Id: <5.2.0.9.2.20071208073147.030c4008@mail.mcn.org> From: Mary Sue Ittner Subject: Wiki Additions Date: Sat, 08 Dec 2007 07:59:37 -0800 Hi, I've continued to add some more Australia plant pictures to the wiki. Arnold has been helping me by starting the pages with text and then I supplement what he adds when I add the pictures. This first one represents a tuberous terrestrial orchid called a bird orchid. Will Ashburner found these for us in the fading light when we were hiking a trail in a park he took us to near where he lives. It wasn't light enough to see the plants well enough to focus on them so we used an automatic focus and a flash and pointed our cameras where we thought they were and hoped for the best. http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki/index.php/Chiloglottis Another group of tuberous orchids usually only open in the sunshine on warm days (like a lot of South African irids) and are therefore known as sun orchids. They are a very colorful group of plants and we were always thrilled when we discovered any, even some of them that were not very tall and had small flowers. I hope I have them identified correctly. Any Australian members of our list please let me know if you think I need to correct any names. I spent quite a lot of time pouring over my pictures and books, but there are so many species and I don't have descriptions or pictures of all of them. http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki/index.php/Thelymitra Another genus in the Colchicum family with just a few species is Burchardia. It looks like this one has had some taxonomic changes in the last few years as there appears to be an Australia taxonomist who is looking at the Western Australian species that were thought to be the same as some of the Eastern species and separating them out. When we were out plant exploring I assumed they were all the same species since they look much the same. http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki/index.php/Burchardia Finally I wanted to add a picture of a Brunsvigia now blooming in my garden (seems like a strange time to be doing so) I grew from seed, Brunsvigia grandiflora. I love the leaves on this one as the last two years they have been twisted. I hope they stay that way as they weren't like that when they were young. I realized I had a number of Brunsvigia pictures I had planned to add and never gotten around to adding so did it all at once. There are leaf pictures from the Karoo Desert National Botanical garden in Worcester taken more than a year ago when we visited, B. marginata which bloomed last year, but not this year, habitat pictures of a number of Eastern Cape species from Cameron McMaster and a Namaqualand species from Alan Horstmann. Jay Yourch has been refining the thumbnails so that when pages are changed they are now more proportionate to the actual picture. You'll be able to see this on this page. http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki/index.php/Brunsvigia Mary Sue From jimmckenney@jimmckenney.com Sat Dec 8 11:15:06 2007 Message-Id: <000301c839b5$b5ccf0b0$2f01a8c0@Library> From: "Jim McKenney" Subject: Eremurus Date: Sat, 8 Dec 2007 11:16:36 -0500 Encouraged by the success I've had with some Eremurus in a raised bed, I ordered and received more this fall. When I unpacked them I was dismayed to see that all of them looked as if they had been through the war: the thong like roots were battered, broken and nicked. One did not even have a viable crown: it was just a chunk of crown without a visible bud. Never one to follow directions well, I ignored the instructions to plant them immediately and instead kept them outside, exposed to the weather, on the deck. Eventually I soaked them and immediately noticed a change in the roots: they plumped up agreeably. All of the breaks and nicks also sprouted mold immediately. I left the rootstocks out in the open air, exposed to sun and rain for several more weeks. During this period the main buds for vegetative growth began to swell noticeably - that I take as a very encouraging sign. As soon as the snow melts (a warming trend is predicted for the next few days) I'll plant them out into the garden. Here's why I'm really writing: all of these Eremurus show signs of something black around their crowns. The more I look at this, the more I'm convinced that it is charring. So here's my question for the group: do the commercial growers burn the plots after the plants have died down? And if so, is this done for weed control or to promote blooming or to control some disease - or maybe all of the above? Jim McKenney jimmckenney@jimmckenney.com Montgomery County, Maryland, USA, USDA zone 7 where a white-flowered Crocus cartwrightianus is blooming and C. ochroleucus is in bud; one of the witch hazels is in full bloom, too! My Virtual Maryland Garden http://www.jimmckenney.com BLOG! http://mcwort.blogspot.com/ Webmaster Potomac Valley Chapter, NARGS Editor PVC Bulletin http://www.pvcnargs.org Webmaster Potomac Lily Society http://www.potomaclilysociety.org From honeybunny442@yahoo.com Sat Dec 8 16:16:47 2007 Message-Id: <966570.78114.qm@web56101.mail.re3.yahoo.com> From: Susan B Subject: Eremurus Date: Sat, 8 Dec 2007 13:16:46 -0800 (PST) Jim, do I understand correctly you had these rootstocks outside, exposed to cold air and snow?? Didn't they freeze?? Susan And I thought I was bad!! --------------------------------- Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. From jimmckenney@jimmckenney.com Sat Dec 8 17:30:32 2007 Message-Id: <001001c839ea$29a7ea60$2f01a8c0@Library> From: "Jim McKenney" Subject: Eremurus Date: Sat, 8 Dec 2007 17:32:04 -0500 Susan asked "Jim, do I understand correctly you had these rootstocks outside, exposed to cold air and snow?? Didn't they freeze??" The weather has been relatively mild here so far, at least until earlier this week. We had freezes earlier, but only light ones. The Eremurus were exposed to the air, but right against the house wall - it probably didn't freeze there, or if it did not by much or for long. Earlier this week, when heavy freezes were predicted, I put them into the cold frame. So it's unlikely that they froze ever, and they never had snow on them (although I can't imagine that snow would hurt them). I think I've read that in the early part of the twentieth century it was usual for Eremurus to be supplied early in the year in the American trade. Presumably slow transportation (the plants back then were probably largely wild collected) made it difficult to supply them in the autumn. I doubt if they got the best of care during the long transport. Incidentally, the Eremurus which sprouted in the late fall last year (and then went on to bloom spectacularly) has so far remained under ground this year. I checked it a few weeks ago - the sprout had not enlarged much, and I suspect that it will not bloom next year. But we'll see. Jim McKenney jimmckenney@jimmckenney.com Montgomery County, Maryland, USA, USDA zone 7, where Iris unguicularis continues to bloom. My Virtual Maryland Garden http://www.jimmckenney.com BLOG! http://mcwort.blogspot.com/ Webmaster Potomac Valley Chapter, NARGS Editor PVC Bulletin http://www.pvcnargs.org Webmaster Potomac Lily Society http://www.potomaclilysociety.org From jshields104@insightbb.com Mon Dec 10 10:49:03 2007 Message-Id: <5.1.0.14.2.20071210101156.0276b6c8@mail.insightbb.com> From: "J.E. Shields" Subject: Winter Bulbs Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2007 10:48:59 -0500 Hi all, The Lachenalia and the Massonia in the cool greenhouse are starting to bloom. I pollinated two clones of Lachenalia rubida rubra yesterday. Maybe I'll get some seeds. The scapes are starting to come up on Lachenalia viridiflora now as well. I have a picture of this species at: http://www.shieldsgardens.com/amaryllids/Lachenalia.html L. pusilla bloomed a month ago, all over the place. I should have seeds of it in a month or so. Massonia sp. cf. depressa is in bloom. The seeds for this one came labeled as "Androcymbium" so I'm not sure of the species. It might be M. echinata, maybe..... I have a web page on Massonia as well, at: http://www.shieldsgardens.com/amaryllids/Massonia.html but it still contains only minimal information. I have lost all my Massonia jasminiflora plants, so I'm down to a couple M. pustulata and one M. echinata besides the depressa? bulbs. Androcymbium are interesting, but only one species grows in summer, A. melantioides (striatum), so far as I recall. A pot of A. latifolium (pulchrum) are in bud and due to bloom shortly. Haemanthus pauculifolius is the only Haemanthus in bloom now. Everything else has finished up for this season. It flowers just as the old leaf on each bulb is yellowing off. Until you clean off the senescent leaves, a clump looks a bit tacky, even though it is blooming. Best wishes, Jim Shields in central Indiana (USA), where the ice storm went north of us and the heavy rains went south of us and the heavy fog has yet to materialize today. ************************************************* Jim Shields USDA Zone 5 Shields Gardens, Ltd. P.O. Box 92 WWW: http://www.shieldsgardens.com/ Westfield, Indiana 46074, USA Tel. ++1-317-867-3344 or toll-free 1-866-449-3344 in USA From dells@voicenet.com Mon Dec 10 16:14:06 2007 Message-Id: <20071210211405.B77E94C018@lists.ibiblio.org> From: "Dell Sherk" Subject: Pacific BX 161 Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2007 16:13:41 -0500 Dear All, The items listed below have been donated by our members to be shared. If you are interested in obtaining some of them, please email me PRIVATELY at . Include "BX 161" in the subject line. Specify the NUMBERS of the items which you would like; do not specify quantities. It is a good idea to include your snail mail address, too, in case I don't already have it. Availability is based on a first come, first served system. When you receive your seeds/bulbs you will find, included with them, a statement of how much money (usually $2.00/item) (cash, check, or Pay Pal to ; no money orders, please) you should send the PBS treasurer to defray our costs for packing and first-class, priority-mail, or international postage. PLEASE NOTE: NEW POSTAL-RATE SCHEMES NECESSITATE OUR PLACING A SURCHARGE ON EACH ORDER FROM PBS BX OFFERINGS. Some of you are members of the online PBS discussion forum but are not members of the Pacific Bulb Society. THIS BX OFFERING IS AVAILABLE ONLY TO MEMBERS OF THE PBS. Consider joining the PBS so that you can take advantage of future offers such as this. Go to our website: .... If you would like to donate seeds or bulbs/corms to the PBS,(Donors will receive credit on the BX for the cost of postage for their donations.), please send CLEAN, clearly labeled material to: Dell Sherk 6832 Phillips Mill Rd. New Hope, PA, 18938 USA I WILL REPLY TO YOU WITHIN 24 HRS OF MY RECEIPT OF YOUR ORDER. IF YOU DO NOT HEAR FROM ME, TRY AGAIN !! From Giorgio Pozzi: 1. Seed of Gladiolus callianthus, (syn. Acidanthera bicolor var. murieliae, Acidanthera murieliae) 2. Cormlets of #1 From Tsuh Yang Chen: 3. Seed of Sinningia aghensis tall growing, forming large tubers, it's a sun lover that requires full sun when adult. i'm growing mine in a southern exposure window and that's still not enough light. dark purple flowers are held atop very high peduncles. deciduous and goes dormant every year From Dave Brastow: SEED: 4. Bensoniella oregana - Not a geophyte, but a member of the Saxifragaceae family that is both charming and quite rare in the wild. It is evergreen for me in the maritime northwest of the USA (Tumwater, WA). It takes the form of a ground cover, has small light cream flowers on 25 cm tall stems, and has very shiny black seeds that persist long after the seed capsules open. 5. Erythronium revolutum - Seed from selected garden plants that were isolated and hand pollinated. 6. Erythronium oregonum - Seed from a plot of ~600 plants rescued in Thurston County, Washington (USA). The plants from this area are much whiter than those I've observed further south in Oregon, which can have a pale green or cream cast. 7. Camassia leichtlinii - Wild collected seed from Thurston County, WA (USA). Adapted to a maritime climate. 8. Camassia quamash - Wild collected seed from Thurston County, WA (USA). Adapted to a maritime climate. Jane McGary once wrote, "One particularly good form is the population ... that grows around Puget Sound". 9. Lilium lancongence - Seed from the first blooming of a young plant, with nicely marked flowers. 10. Polygonatum cirrhifolium - A robust grower, often reaching 2 meters. Whorled narrow leaves, with tendril (cirrose) tips. Flowers in axial clusters, followed by seed that turn a beautiful translucent deep red in the late fall. Thank you, Giorgio, Tsuh Yang, and Dave !! Best wishes, Dell Dell Sherk, Director, PBS BX From debbiett@comcast.net Mon Dec 10 17:20:12 2007 Message-Id: <4478816099AC45B18B1F9E6AC7E6BCD7@Deb> From: "Debbie TT" Subject: Pacific BX 161 Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2007 14:20:06 -0800 I would love seed from the following: Bensoniella oregana Erythronium oregonum Erythronium revolutum Lilium lancongence Debbie TT PO Box 723 Kingston, WA 98346 -------------------------------------------------- From: "Dell Sherk" Sent: Monday, December 10, 2007 1:13 PM To: "'Adam Fikso'" ; "'c'" ; "'Macfarlane'" ; "'Mark'" ; "'Mark Wilcox'" ; "Pat Colville" ; "PBS list" ; "The Masterson Family" Subject: [pbs] Pacific BX 161 > Dear All, > > > > The items listed below have been donated by our members to be > shared. > > > > If you are interested in obtaining some of them, please email me > PRIVATELY > at . Include "BX 161" in the subject line. > > > > Specify the NUMBERS of the items which you would like; do not > specify quantities. It is a good idea to include your snail mail address, > too, in case I don't already have it. Availability is based on a first > come, > first served system. When you receive your seeds/bulbs you will find, > included with them, a statement of how much money (usually $2.00/item) > (cash, check, or Pay Pal to ; no money orders, please) > you > should send the PBS treasurer to defray our costs for packing and > first-class, priority-mail, or international postage. > > > > PLEASE NOTE: NEW POSTAL-RATE SCHEMES NECESSITATE OUR PLACING A SURCHARGE > ON > EACH ORDER FROM PBS BX OFFERINGS. > > > > Some of you are members of the online PBS discussion forum but are not > members of the Pacific Bulb Society. THIS BX OFFERING IS AVAILABLE ONLY TO > MEMBERS OF THE PBS. Consider joining the PBS so that you can take > advantage > of future offers such as this. Go to our website: > > .... > > > > If you would like to donate seeds or bulbs/corms to the > PBS,(Donors > will receive credit on the BX for the cost of postage for their > donations.), > please send CLEAN, clearly labeled material to: > > > > Dell Sherk > > 6832 Phillips Mill Rd. > > New Hope, PA, 18938 > > USA > > > > I WILL REPLY TO YOU WITHIN 24 HRS OF MY RECEIPT OF YOUR ORDER. > IF YOU DO NOT HEAR FROM ME, TRY AGAIN !! > > > > > >From Giorgio Pozzi: > > > > 1. Seed of Gladiolus callianthus, (syn. Acidanthera bicolor var. > murieliae, > Acidanthera murieliae) > > > > 2. Cormlets of #1 > > > >From Tsuh Yang Chen: > > > > 3. Seed of Sinningia aghensis tall growing, forming large tubers, it's a > sun lover that requires full sun when adult. i'm growing mine in a > southern > exposure window and that's still not enough light. dark purple flowers > are > held atop very high peduncles. deciduous and goes dormant every year > > > >From Dave Brastow: > > > > SEED: > > > > 4. Bensoniella oregana - Not a geophyte, but a member of the > Saxifragaceae family that is both charming and quite rare in the wild. > > It is evergreen for me in the maritime northwest of the USA (Tumwater, > WA). > It takes the form of a ground cover, has small light cream flowers on 25 > cm > tall stems, and has very shiny black seeds that persist long after the > seed > capsules open. > > > > 5. Erythronium revolutum - Seed from selected garden plants that were > isolated and hand pollinated. > > > > 6. Erythronium oregonum - Seed from a plot of ~600 plants rescued in > Thurston County, Washington (USA). The plants from this area are much > whiter than those I've observed further south in Oregon, which can have a > pale green or cream cast. > > > > 7. Camassia leichtlinii - Wild collected seed from Thurston County, WA > (USA). Adapted to a maritime climate. > > > > 8. Camassia quamash - Wild collected seed from Thurston County, WA > (USA). > Adapted to a maritime climate. Jane McGary once wrote, "One particularly > good form is the population ... that grows around Puget Sound". > > > > 9. Lilium lancongence - Seed from the first blooming of a young plant, > with nicely marked flowers. > > > > 10. Polygonatum cirrhifolium - A robust grower, often reaching 2 > meters. > Whorled narrow leaves, with tendril (cirrose) tips. Flowers in axial > clusters, followed by seed that turn a beautiful translucent deep red in > the > late fall. > > > > Thank you, Giorgio, Tsuh Yang, and Dave !! > > > > Best wishes, > > Dell > > > > Dell Sherk, Director, PBS BX > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > pbs mailing list > pbs@lists.ibiblio.org > http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php > http://pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki From debbiett@comcast.net Mon Dec 10 17:42:10 2007 Message-Id: <290BE1F94BDF4471BD376B0F3C27C578@Deb> From: "Debbie TT" Subject: Apologies! Re: Pacific BX 161 Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2007 14:42:05 -0800 My apologies! My bad. Debbie -------------------------------------------------- From: "Debbie TT" Sent: Monday, December 10, 2007 2:20 PM To: "Pacific Bulb Society" Subject: Re: [pbs] Pacific BX 161 > I would love seed from the following: > > Bensoniella oregana > Erythronium oregonum > Erythronium revolutum > Lilium lancongence From Neil.Crawford@volvo.com Tue Dec 11 09:23:12 2007 Message-Id: <16B261F82E2E594895EBA3157EA779AC0A12D5FB@segotn645.vcn.ds.volvo.net> From: "Crawford Neil" Subject: Cyrthantus elatus- George lily Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2007 15:23:06 +0100 We're planning our February trip to South Africa, and have now got home the field guides for Eastern Cape and the Garden route. One of the nicest pages in the Outeniqua/garden route guide is for the Cyrthantus elatus, it shows a rare hanging variety. But it also mentions in the introduction that the Cyrthantus purpurea (which seems to be the same plant in the erect variety, but an older name) is quite common in the Langkloof. We're pretty confused! Should we make a detour into the Langkloof to look for it, or would that be a waste of time, as it's virtually extinct in the wild, in any form? Best regards Neil Crawford From jwaddick@kc.rr.com Tue Dec 11 11:48:58 2007 Message-Id: From: James Waddick Subject: Buried Treasures Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2007 10:10:45 -0600 Dear Friends, Winter time here - mid ice storm - and it is not a time for outdoor gardening. Hardly even safe to be outdoors. It is however an excellent time to sit, as time permits, with a good book. So far I have to say 'Buried Treasures' by Janis Ruksans* fits that mood very well. This book was mentioned briefly here by Jim McKenney and a few people vented their complaints about Timber Press editing, no one has really talked about THE BOOK. I agree with Jim McK in the abundance of rare Juno irises illustrated. Wow. I was disappointed to see no pix and few mentions of Ungernia (Oh well), but there's a lot to lust over even on my short perusal. But is there any bulbophile who doesn't find something wonderful to dream about within the covers?. He has a lot of narratives about collecting in extremely remote places in Central Asia and a wealth of practical information about growing a variety of bulbs. Seems like a good book for the right season - in front of a toasty fire in the fireplace. Anyone else find something good to say about it? Best Jim W. * Check it out at: http://www.timberpress.com/books/isbn.cfm/9780881928181/buried_treasures/ruksans -- Dr. James W. Waddick 8871 NW Brostrom Rd. Kansas City Missouri 64152-2711 USA Ph. 816-746-1949 Zone 5 Record low -23F Summer 100F + From voltaire@islandnet.com Tue Dec 11 12:28:57 2007 Message-Id: From: Diane Whitehead Subject: Buried Treasures Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2007 09:28:29 -0800 I am enjoying dipping into the book in the evenings and reading excerpts to my husband - not the plant stuff, as he is a non-gardener, but parts of the narrative like jumping from boulder to boulder to avoid landmines. There was one complaint about all the photos being grouped. I found that an advantage when I was filling out my seed exchange requests - it was easy to skim through the photo sections and check the seedlists to see if seeds were available. I have been buying Ruksans seeds from Kristl Walek's Gardens North seedhouse, but seed has not been available for everything, and his book explains why - not all of his bulbs can produce seeds in his climate. Diane Whitehead From maxwithers@gmail.com Tue Dec 11 19:14:04 2007 Message-Id: <475F27CB.5010409@gmail.com> From: Max Withers Subject: attention Iris aficionados Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2007 16:14:03 -0800 I have recently picked up a copy of Irises, by Harry Randall (US ed., NY, 1969), which appears to be a treasure trove of information about the history of bearded Iris breeding, particularly in the postwar period. I say "appears" because I know nothing about the subject, and do not wish to learn. So the book is free to the first bearded Iris fancier who replies. (If you are not in the US, you will have to send me money for postage, which will probably be around US$20). Happy Holidays, Max Withers Oakland CA From hansennursery@coosnet.com Wed Dec 12 00:35:31 2007 Message-Id: <005901c83c80$bea03530$14f164d0@homed4aec9b2d8> From: "Robin Hansen" Subject: Buried Treasures Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2007 21:34:50 -0800 Oh my, yes, I love the book. I've been reading with maps in hand. What a geographical education, on top of the wonderful information about plants I know virtually nothing about. I kicked myself for not reading with notepad in hand (to make a seedlist of must-haves), but the book demands rereading in any case. As for the editing, sure it's a little rough and Jane McGary has mentioned words used that are not in our vernacular. I guess my comment would be "So what!" The mere fact that we have this book in hand for future reference is all I care about. That the book demands some serious attention to the business of reading is no bad thing, given the eye candy with which we are so continually assaulted these days. Ok, so I'm in love with words for their own sake - one man's awkward phrase is another's different approach. There's something to be said for a fresh description. Robin Hansen From jshields104@insightbb.com Wed Dec 12 12:55:42 2007 Message-Id: <5.1.0.14.2.20071212125311.02739ce0@mail.insightbb.com> From: "J.E. Shields" Subject: Ploidy and Fertility Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2007 12:55:50 -0500 Hi all, I'm going to take the liberty of cross-posting this to PBS because I suspect there may be a couple people in this list who are interested in Hippeastrum species and breeding: Posted to the Hippeastrum Species Group (on Yahoo Groups): In looking into publications transferring species from Amaryllis to Hippeastrum, I have received a copy of one paper of more interest: Margot Williams & T.R. Dudley, "Chromosome count for Hippeastrum iguazuanum" in TAXON, vol. 33: 271-275 (1984) These workers found that H. iguazuanum has a chromosome number 2N = 24 whereas the normal diploid number for most Hippeastrum species is usually 2N = 22. They also comment that H. morelianum has 2N = 24 while H. forgetii has 2N = 22 + B. The B is a small chromosome fragment, and Williams suggested that the 12th chromosome pair in iguazuanum and morelianum may have originated with the B fragment. Crosses of either iguazuanum or morelianum with a diploid (2N=22) species would yield offspring that were aneuploid. They confirmed that such a hybrid was aneuploid with 2N = 23. I made the cross [iguazuanum X leopoldii] (or perhaps someone sent it to me? I can't recall) about 30 years ago, and found it quite sterile. It resisted all attempts to cross it with anything else. See it at: http://www.shieldsgardens.com/amaryllids/hipphybd.html We can expect the same with crosses of morelianum, and this latter species (unlike iguazuanum) is regularly available as seed from Mauro in Brazil. Has anyone made crosses with Hippeastrum species and found the offspring to be fertile? Please tell us about it! Best wishes, Jim Shields in sunny central Indiana (USA) ************************************************* Jim Shields USDA Zone 5 Shields Gardens, Ltd. P.O. Box 92 WWW: http://www.shieldsgardens.com/ Westfield, Indiana 46074, USA Tel. ++1-317-867-3344 or toll-free 1-866-449-3344 in USA From jimmckenney@jimmckenney.com Wed Dec 12 15:08:34 2007 Message-Id: <000001c83cfa$ff2981e0$2f01a8c0@Library> From: "Jim McKenney" Subject: Ploidy and Fertility Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2007 15:10:08 -0500 Jim, excuse me if this is totally an earth to Jim (Jim McK) experience. What do you mean when you write "In looking into publications transferring species from Amaryllis to Hippeastrum, I have received a copy of one paper of more interest"? Amaryllis is monotypic, isn't it? I know the word species can be either singular or plural, but other than A. belladonna, what other species are there to transfer? And surely no one is proposing to transfer A. belladonna to Hippeastrum? (How't that for great logic? Surely...and then a question mark). Is the world turning upside down or something? I'm sitting here caked in mud, cold, fighting the tail end of what might have been a flu-like viral experience, taking a break and trying to warm up before heading back out to take advantage of the last few hours of light - and trying to ponder what's going on with Amaryllis and Hippeastrum. Oh, wait a minute, I now see the date on the publication you cite: what you mean is that you're looking at older publication from back in the days when what are now called Hippeastrum were for a while called Amaryllis - and wondering if all should be transferred as a block to Hippeastrum or if maybe some should have their own genus (other than Amaryllis). Just to cheer me up, I wish someone would re-tell the story (naming names and so on) of the skullduggery which occurred surrounding the Hippeastrum/Amaryllis controversy. Wasn't a well-known botanist accused of tampering with the Linnaeean type, maybe even moving it to another sheet or something like that? Or should I just get back to work in the garden? Jim McKenney From zigur@hotmail.com Wed Dec 12 15:11:39 2007 Message-Id: From: Tim Harvey Subject: Ploidy and Fertility Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2007 12:11:28 -0800 I don't think Amaryllis is monotypic, unless A. paradisicola been moved? T> From: jimmckenney@jimmckenney.com> To: pbs@lists.ibiblio.org> Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2007 15:10:08 -0500> Subject: Re: [pbs] Ploidy and Fertility> > Jim, excuse me if this is totally an earth to Jim (Jim McK) experience. > > What do you mean when you write "In looking into publications transferring> species from Amaryllis to Hippeastrum, I have received a copy of one paper> of more interest"?> > Amaryllis is monotypic, isn't it? I know the word species can be either> singular or plural, but other than A. belladonna, what other species are> there to transfer? And surely no one is proposing to transfer A. belladonna> to Hippeastrum? (How't that for great logic? Surely...and then a question> mark). > From jimmckenney@jimmckenney.com Wed Dec 12 15:51:37 2007 Message-Id: <000101c83d01$0364abd0$2f01a8c0@Library> From: "Jim McKenney" Subject: Ploidy and Fertility Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2007 15:53:10 -0500 Tim's right, there is a plant called Amaryllis paradisicola. I've seen pictures of it, so I should have know better. One other way to get more species: given the easy "hybridization" of Amaryllis and Brunsvigia, I've long been waiting for someone to combine those genera: the plants have already done it, now it's time for the taxonomists to catch up. Jim McKenney From haweha@hotmail.com Wed Dec 12 15:58:44 2007 Message-Id: From: Hans-Werner Hammen Subject: Ploidy and Fertility Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2007 20:58:22 +0000 I crossed H.aulicum v.robustum with H.papilio (the common evergreen clone which is traded at least in Europe) I obtained several amazingly differently looking siblings. Among these was one which produced a seed pod with obviously viable seeds within - after uncontrolled pollination (in fact I did not pollinate because I had been unfortunate so far) However, I did not use these seeds because I had no place left. H.aulicum v.robustum http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v215/haweha/?action=view¤t=Haulicum0370.jpg http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v215/haweha/?action=view¤t=0372.jpg H.papilio http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v215/haweha/?action=view¤t=4164.jpg http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v215/haweha/?action=view¤t=4169.jpg H.aulicum v.robustum x H.papilio http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v215/haweha/?action=view¤t=2755.jpg http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v215/haweha/?action=view¤t=1382_s.jpg Best and outstanding specimen of that grex was http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v215/haweha/?action=view¤t=4241.jpg Enjoy! Then I want to remind that H x johnsonii which is primary species hybrid as we all know, is amazingly self-fertile. However, a closer inspection of the numerous seeds per pod reveals that the majority is not viable. Hans-Werner > Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2007 12:55:50 -0500 > To: pbs@lists.ibiblio.org > From: jshields104@insightbb.com > Subject: [pbs] Ploidy and Fertility >...... >Has anyone made crosses with Hippeastrum species and found the offspring to be fertile? Please tell us about it! _________________________________________________________________ Importieren Sie ganz einfach Ihre E-Mail Adressen in den Messenger! http://messenger.live.de/community/neuekontakte_adressimport.html From haweha@hotmail.com Wed Dec 12 16:09:20 2007 Message-Id: From: Hans-Werner Hammen Subject: Ploidy and Fertility Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2007 21:09:19 +0000 Okay, Amaryllis belladonna appears rather promiscuitive - since crossbreeding succeeded with Brunsvigia, Crinum and Nerine, and I would veritably not be astonished if it crossed with Boophone and Ammocharis also. But, as we all know, too, is, that this is not an argument for re-placing these within one genus. (Sorry Tim, if I misunderstood the term "time for the taxonomists to catch up") > From: jimmckenney@jimmckenney.com > To: pbs@lists.ibiblio.org > Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2007 15:53:10 -0500 > Subject: Re: [pbs] Ploidy and Fertility > > Tim's right, there is a plant called Amaryllis paradisicola. I've seen > pictures of it, so I should have know better. > > One other way to get more species: given the easy "hybridization" of > Amaryllis and Brunsvigia, I've long been waiting for someone to combine > those genera: the plants have already done it, now it's time for the > taxonomists to catch up. > > Jim McKenney > > _______________________________________________ > pbs mailing list > pbs@lists.ibiblio.org > http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php > http://pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki _________________________________________________________________ Windows Live Fotogalerie: So einfach organisieren Sie Ihre Fotos! http://get.live.com/photogallery/overview From jimmckenney@jimmckenney.com Wed Dec 12 16:20:48 2007 Message-Id: <000501c83d05$16b9b820$2f01a8c0@Library> From: "Jim McKenney" Subject: Ploidy and Fertility Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2007 16:22:19 -0500 Great photos, Hans-Werner. Neat colors and amazing textures on those blooms. It was Jim McKenney, not Tim, who suggested that the taxonomists need to catch up. Hans-Werner, when you write " But, as we all know, too, is, that this is not an argument for re-placing these within one genus" you are speaking for yourself, and perhaps many others, but not all of us. All of us don't know that - or at least all of us don't agree with that. Can you cite a better criterion for demonstrating that plants are very closely related than the ability to produce viable, fertile offspring? Forget what the plants look like: that's very nineteenth century. Regards, Jim McKenney From leo@possi.org Wed Dec 12 16:23:52 2007 Message-Id: <50210.209.180.132.162.1197494628.squirrel@www.possi.org> From: "Leo A. Martin" Subject: Sinking Brunsvigia Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2007 14:23:48 -0700 (MST) > One other way to get more species: given the easy "hybridization" of > Amaryllis and Brunsvigia, I've long been waiting for someone to combine > those genera: the plants have already done it, now it's time for the > taxonomists to catch up. > > Jim McKenney That would be great! Amaryllis (1753) is so much easier to grow than Brunsvigia (1755)! Leo Martin Phoenix Arizona USA From jshields@indy.net Wed Dec 12 16:24:35 2007 Message-Id: <5.1.0.14.2.20071212154806.027b5030@pop.indy.net> From: "J.E. Shields" Subject: Ploidy and Fertility Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2007 16:24:40 -0500 Hi Jim McK! Well, you were living in the real world, whereas a handful of botanists were trying to make "Amaryllis" the genus name of the South American bulbs we now call "Hippeastrum." From the 1930s onward, Uphoff in 1938 proposed that Amaryllis really referrerd to the New World species. Dr. Hamilton P. Traub then supported this determinedly for the rest of his life. Traub carried on a lengthy campaign to get the South African species Amaryllis belladonna moved into a different genus (any different genus!) He and several other botanists discovered and named many new species from South America, putting them all in the genus Amaryllis. Traub was the editor of HERBERTIA and PLANT LIFE, in which journal (same journal, a couple of name changes along the way) most of the papers describing these new species were published. The species for the most part were quite valid new taxons, so that part of things was OK. The choice of genus name was the bone of contention. In the 1980s, that effort by Traub et al. fell apart on several fronts: an international commission ruled that Amaryllis applied to the South African species (still monotypic at that time, I believe) and that the New World species that had be named as Amaryllis must be called Hippeastrum. Dr. Traub passed away at about the same time. Actually, Dr Traub came close to "proving" that the original type for Amaryllis was in fact a New World species, or at least that there was great doubt as to just what plant the type specimen for the original description actually was. Peter Goldblatt proposed formally in 1984 that Amaryllis be recognized as the name for the African species, and that a new type that was clearly the Cape Belladonna be designated. The commission ruled that the many years of usage of Amaryllis for the African plant were to be given precedence (regardless of the particular facts of Linneaus's original specimen), so they followed Goldblatt's proposal and "conserved" Amaryllis as the name for the African plant and at the same time they conserved Hippeastrum as the name for the many New World species. Now HERBERTIA is edited by Dr. Alan Meerow, and the journal of course treats the New World species as Hippeastrum. Alan has indeed been co-author on two of the main papers handling the formal transfer of those South American species names to Hippeastrum. I have been looking at as many of the transfer papers as I could find to set up a reasonable (but temporary) list of species names in Hippeastrum in one place -- at least until Alan and his collaborator, Dr. Julie Dutilh of Brazil, get a formal revision of the genus published. That partial list is sitting on my web site now at: http://www.shieldsgardens.com/amaryllids/HippeastrumList.html This is indeed ancient history. It was in the course of reviewing that history, to get the authors sorted out for my list of Hippeastrum species, that I came across the other paper. I followed the debates in PLANT LIFE/HERBERTIA from about 1970 on as a member of the APLS. I'll tell you this: the world of taxonomy is a tough place! Those guys go out for blood. Best wishes, Jim Shields ************************************************* Jim Shields USDA Zone 5 Shields Gardens, Ltd. P.O. Box 92 WWW: http://www.shieldsgardens.com/ Westfield, Indiana 46074, USA Tel. ++1-317-867-3344 or toll-free 1-866-449-3344 in USA From haweha@hotmail.com Wed Dec 12 16:40:44 2007 Message-Id: From: Hans-Werner Hammen Subject: Ploidy and Fertility Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2007 21:40:43 +0000 Thank you, ummh... Jim. (I saw my fault when I reviewed my just-sent letter but then it was certainly too late...;) Really??! I did not know that there be a significant group of interest who desire to see those plants united into a genus if crossbreeding is possible - and I am indeed amazed! My state of knowledge is that the taxonomists do not care - nor for appearance neither for ummmh...crossability :) - in fact they unite /separate by other criteria, the relationships based on molecular biology. Oh - I think that you and I are mightless against that... But, personally, for ME, Amaryllis IS unique. If I were forced to place it anywhere (by similarity of appearance) then ld put it into the species Nerine- but I would know that it would be remaining an outsider there.... *rolleyes* Hans-Werner > From: jimmckenney@jimmckenney.com > To: pbs@lists.ibiblio.org > Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2007 16:22:19 -0500 > Subject: Re: [pbs] Ploidy and Fertility > > Great photos, Hans-Werner. Neat colors and amazing textures on those blooms. > > > > It was Jim McKenney, not Tim, who suggested that the taxonomists need to > catch up. Hans-Werner, when you write " But, as we all know, too, is, that > this is not an argument for re-placing these within one genus" you are > speaking for yourself, and perhaps many others, but not all of us. > > All of us don't know that - or at least all of us don't agree with that. Can > you cite a better criterion for demonstrating that plants are very closely > related than the ability to produce viable, fertile offspring? > > Forget what the plants look like: that's very nineteenth century. > > Regards, > > Jim McKenney > > > > > _______________________________________________ > pbs mailing list > pbs@lists.ibiblio.org > http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php > http://pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki _________________________________________________________________ Importieren Sie ganz einfach Ihre E-Mail Adressen in den Messenger! http://messenger.live.de/community/neuekontakte_adressimport.html From jshields@indy.net Wed Dec 12 16:49:49 2007 Message-Id: <5.1.0.14.2.20071212163417.027b91d0@pop.indy.net> From: "J.E. Shields" Subject: Ploidy and Fertility Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2007 16:49:56 -0500 Hi Hans-Werner, Thanks for the information. H. aulicum and H. papilio are both usually diploids, but I think there are some triploid forms of aulicum. I have one clone of aulicum that has never set seeds on or by anything; I suspect it might be a triploid. I have heard that Hippeastrum x-johnsonii is found as diploid (2n = 22), triploid (2N = 33), and tetraploid (2N = 44) clones. I wonder if there could be some apomixis going on where self-seeds are produced? I have a bulb from the cross [papilio X pardinum] that has never set seed for me. Years ago, I made the cross [lapacense X nelsonii] and got several seedlings that bloomed, but they would never set any seeds. As far as I know, lapacense, nelsonii, papilio, and pardinum are all diploids. Next time you get some seeds from a complex Hippeastrum hybrid of the species, please send them to Dell Sherk for the PBS BX/SX. Best regards, Jim Shields in central Indiana (USA) At 08:58 PM 12/12/2007 +0000, you wrote: >I crossed H.aulicum v.robustum with H.papilio (the common evergreen clone >which is traded at least in Europe) ************************************************* Jim Shields USDA Zone 5 Shields Gardens, Ltd. P.O. Box 92 WWW: http://www.shieldsgardens.com/ Westfield, Indiana 46074, USA Tel. ++1-317-867-3344 or toll-free 1-866-449-3344 in USA From totototo@telus.net Wed Dec 12 18:31:04 2007 Message-Id: <20071212233057.51K66B2XNF@priv-edtnaa04.telusplanet.net> From: totototo@telus.net Subject: Ploidy and Fertility Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2007 15:31:52 -0800 On 12 Dec 07, at 15:10, Jim McKenney wrote: > Just to cheer me up, I wish someone would re-tell the story (naming names > and so on) of the skullduggery which occurred surrounding the > Hippeastrum/Amaryllis controversy. Wasn't a well-known botanist accused of > tampering with the Linnaeean type, maybe even moving it to another sheet or > something like that? There was long-standing uncertainty just what plant Linnaeus had named "Amaryllis belladonna". Or more precisely, whether the plant we call "Amaryllis belladonna" is the same plant Linnaeus called by that name. Within living memory, the Linnean Society finally allowed the type speciment in the Linnaean herbarium to be dissected in order to settle the question. It turned out that Amaryllis bellandonna L was indeed Amaryllis belladonna of common parlance. This resolved fundamental nomenclatural problems with Hippeastrum, Amaryllis, and I don't know what else. I've never heard of there being any skullduggery in connection with this mess. > Or should I just get back to work in the garden? You should do that too. -- Rodger Whitlock Victoria, British Columbia, Canada Maritime Zone 8, a cool Mediterranean climate on beautiful Vancouver Island From jshaw@opuntiads.com Wed Dec 12 22:08:15 2007 Message-Id: From: "Joe" Subject: what is a species (was ploidy) Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2007 21:07:42 -0600 One of my favorite topics to write about is "what is a species" and all of our (human) various efforts to answer the question. Sometimes complicated subjects eventually lead back to bulbs, so bear with me. I enjoy reading John Hawks Weblog on Anthroplogy. Recently he wrote: There will never be any tidy solution to the species problem, because all species have unique evolutionary histories and constraints. Given these difficulties, the species status of archaic Homo populations is basically an intractable problem. That is, I am happy to suggest that archaic Homo populations correspond to classical subspecies, and as far as I know, no evidence strongly contradicts that position. But I can recognize that some people will never agree with this assignment. And from the perspective of their evolution, it just doesn't matter. Evolutionarily important gene flow occurs between mammal species, subspecies, and populations. The relevance of this topic for botanists is that is suggests that our attempts to definitively delineate plant species is nearly impossible. The various plants of the world will interbreed or not, and by doing so establish their own genetic definitions of species. Humans have not settled on a single definition of a species for plants, much less subspecies or genera, but this has not stopped plant species themselves from going about their business. Oaks don't interbreed with pines, a fact easily observed and verified. However, in South Africa, who can say what apparently unrelated Cape bulbs sometimes successfully exchange pollen and produce viable progeny that backcross; if such an event happens one can ask if the involved plants are a single species or distantly related subspecies The categories of Linnaeus just don't work sometimes. The human genome project (and other genome projects) has produced enormous amounts of information, some of it even being extracted from humans that lived over 30,000 years ago. These humans ("modern" and Neanderthal types) DNA projects are of are of great relevance to botanists because the human-based projects are relatively well funded in comparison with plant DNA projects. Therefore, the human studies provide much information about how to procede (when funding does become available) as well as how to recover and handle ancient DNA. It will soon be possible to sequence entire plant communities that may have been covered in rock, ash, mud, or water many thousands of years ago, and which contain ancestors of modern bulbs. Possibly, the human genome projects will show ways to interpret and handle such DNA information (including tiny odd chromosomes). Speaking of Linnaeus (as was discussed on this email list earlier this year), this year marks his 300th birthday and there are several Web pages devoted to articles about him. Some of the articles are free and others require registration or a subscription. Science Magazine, Happy 300th Birthday (cute slide show, free, about Linnaeus, plants, and our diet) http://www.sciencemag.org/sciext/gonzoscientist/episode2/audioslides.html Science Magazine, Happy 300th Birthday (opinion piece, free) http://www.sciencemag.org/cgi/content/full/318/5851/752b Nature Magazine, Linnaeus in the information age (free) http://www.nature.com/nature/focus/linnaeus300/index.html#features Nature Magazine, Linnaeus at 300 http://www.nature.com/nature/focus/linnaeus300/index.html#features For the Love of Plants (all about Linnaeus and plant names, and plant descriptions) http://hometown.aol.com/jshaw1953/for%20the%20love%20of%20plants.pdf Cordially, Joe Shaw Conroe TX From othonna@gmail.com Wed Dec 12 22:40:03 2007 Message-Id: <8e8da5260712121940w3ad61976s7753ad1d97994dc3@mail.gmail.com> From: Hannon Subject: Sinking Brunsvigia Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2007 19:40:02 -0800 Leo, Jim-- I've also felt it would be sensible to at least consider this merger. They are separated by seemingly non-profound details of the seeds and the leaves with midrib (Amaryllis) or without (Brunsvigia), whereas the traits in common are overwhelming. Is morphological homogeneity important in defining genera? How important? The same applies to the seemingly artificial distinction of Hessea from Strumaria, based on somewhat variable character states. Carpolyza has already been lumped under the latter. I suppose the taxonomists are happy to rely more on molecular data when the going gets tough regarding when to split and when to lump. Dylan On Dec 12, 2007 1:23 PM, Leo A. Martin wrote: > > One other way to get more species: given the easy "hybridization" of > > Amaryllis and Brunsvigia, I've long been waiting for someone to combine > > those genera: the plants have already done it, now it's time for the > > taxonomists to catch up. > > > > Jim McKenney > > That would be great! Amaryllis (1753) is so much easier to grow than > Brunsvigia (1755)! > > Leo Martin > Phoenix Arizona USA > > _______________________________________________ > pbs mailing list > pbs@lists.ibiblio.org > http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php > http://pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki > From zigur@hotmail.com Thu Dec 13 00:45:19 2007 Message-Id: From: Tim Harvey Subject: Sinking Brunsvigia Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2007 21:45:17 -0800 Oh, I see another genus akin to Euphorbia in the making! I believe some investigation of these relationships have been done at the DNA level, though I regard such data as important as other physical descriptors. T> Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2007 19:40:02 -0800> From: othonna@gmail.com> To: pbs@lists.ibiblio.org> Subject: Re: [pbs] Sinking Brunsvigia> > Leo, Jim-- I've also felt it would be sensible to at least consider this> merger. They are separated by seemingly non-profound details of the seeds> and the leaves with midrib (Amaryllis) or without (Brunsvigia), whereas the> traits in common are overwhelming. Is morphological homogeneity important in> defining genera? How important?> The same applies to the seemingly artificial distinction of Hessea from> Strumaria, based on somewhat variable character states. Carpolyza has> already been lumped under the latter. I suppose the taxonomists are happy to> rely more on molecular data when the going gets tough regarding when to> split and when to lump.> Dylan> > On Dec 12, 2007 1:23 PM, Leo A. Martin wrote:> > > > One other way to get more species: given the easy "hybridization" of> > > Amaryllis and Brunsvigia, I've long been waiting for someone to combine> > > those genera: the plants have already done it, now it's time for the> > > taxonomists to catch up.> > >> > > Jim McKenney> >> > That would be great! Amaryllis (1753) is so much easier to grow than> > Brunsvigia (1755)!> >> > Leo Martin> > Phoenix Arizona USA> >> > _______________________________________________> > pbs mailing list> > pbs@lists.ibiblio.org> > http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php> > http://pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki> >> _______________________________________________> pbs mailing list> pbs@lists.ibiblio.org> http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php> http://pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki From othonna@gmail.com Thu Dec 13 02:51:02 2007 Message-Id: <8e8da5260712122351h3cc82065w8223b6a00172ff83@mail.gmail.com> From: Hannon Subject: Sinking Brunsvigia Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2007 23:51:00 -0800 Tim, Whatever the evidence employed, once substantiated monophyletic groups are worked out then the rank of those groups becomes "academic". Hence the subjective nature of taxonomic schemes and hence the everlasting hope of armchair botanists for more suitable arrangements. Dylan On Dec 12, 2007 9:45 PM, Tim Harvey wrote: > > Oh, I see another genus akin to Euphorbia in the making! I believe some > investigation of these relationships have been done at the DNA level, though > I regard such data as important as other physical descriptors. > > T> Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2007 19:40:02 -0800> From: othonna@gmail.com> To: > pbs@lists.ibiblio.org> Subject: Re: [pbs] Sinking Brunsvigia> > Leo, Jim-- > I've also felt it would be sensible to at least consider this> merger. They > are separated by seemingly non-profound details of the seeds> and the leaves > with midrib (Amaryllis) or without (Brunsvigia), whereas the> traits in > common are overwhelming. Is morphological homogeneity important in> defining > genera? How important?> The same applies to the seemingly artificial > distinction of Hessea from> Strumaria, based on somewhat variable character > states. Carpolyza has> already been lumped under the latter. I suppose the > taxonomists are happy to> rely more on molecular data when the going gets > tough regarding when to> split and when to lump.> Dylan> > On Dec 12, 2007 > 1:23 PM, Leo A. Martin wrote:> > > > One other way to get > more species: given the easy "hybridization" of> > > Amaryllis and > Brunsvigia, I've long been wait > ing for someone to combine> > > those genera: the plants have already > done it, now it's time for the> > > taxonomists to catch up.> > >> > > Jim > McKenney> >> > That would be great! Amaryllis (1753) is so much easier to > grow than> > Brunsvigia (1755)!> >> > Leo Martin> > Phoenix Arizona USA> >> > > _______________________________________________> > pbs mailing list> > > pbs@lists.ibiblio.org> > http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php> > > http://pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki> >> > _______________________________________________> pbs mailing list> > pbs@lists.ibiblio.org> http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php> > http://pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki > _______________________________________________ > pbs mailing list > pbs@lists.ibiblio.org > http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php > http://pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki > From zigur@hotmail.com Thu Dec 13 02:57:06 2007 Message-Id: From: Tim Harvey Subject: Sinking Brunsvigia Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2007 23:57:05 -0800 Well I bet there are a whole bunch of different genes and associated regulators requred to give a leaf a midrib, and we'll very likely not know what they are this century! I agree, philosophically speaking. Why on earth Bruyns stuck Monadenium into Euphorbia I'll never understand, but I can tell a Brunsvigia from an Amaryllis ... T> Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2007 23:51:00 -0800> From: othonna@gmail.com> To: pbs@lists.ibiblio.org> Subject: Re: [pbs] Sinking Brunsvigia> > Tim,> Whatever the evidence employed, once substantiated monophyletic groups are> worked out then the rank of those groups becomes "academic". Hence the> subjective nature of taxonomic schemes and hence the everlasting hope of> armchair botanists for more suitable arrangements.> Dylan> > On Dec 12, 2007 9:45 PM, Tim Harvey wrote:> > >> > Oh, I see another genus akin to Euphorbia in the making! I believe some> > investigation of these relationships have been done at the DNA level, though> > I regard such data as important as other physical descriptors.> >> > T> Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2007 19:40:02 -0800> From: othonna@gmail.com> To:> > pbs@lists.ibiblio.org> Subject: Re: [pbs] Sinking Brunsvigia> > Leo, Jim--> > I've also felt it would be sensible to at least consider this> merger. They> > are separated by seemingly non-profound details of the seeds> and the leaves> > with midrib (Amaryllis) or without (Brunsvigia), whereas the> traits in> > common are overwhelming. Is morphological homogeneity important in> defining> > genera? How important?> The same applies to the seemingly artificial> > distinction of Hessea from> Strumaria, based on somewhat variable character> > states. Carpolyza has> already been lumped under the latter. I suppose the> > taxonomists are happy to> rely more on molecular data when the going gets> > tough regarding when to> split and when to lump.> Dylan> > On Dec 12, 2007> > 1:23 PM, Leo A. Martin wrote:> > > > One other way to get> > more species: given the easy "hybridization" of> > > Amaryllis and> > Brunsvigia, I've long been wait> > ing for someone to combine> > > those genera: the plants have already> > done it, now it's time for the> > > taxonomists to catch up.> > >> > > Jim> > McKenney> >> > That would be great! Amaryllis (1753) is so much easier to> > grow than> > Brunsvigia (1755)!> >> > Leo Martin> > Phoenix Arizona USA> >>> > > _______________________________________________> > pbs mailing list> >> > pbs@lists.ibiblio.org> > http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php> >> > http://pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki> >>> > _______________________________________________> pbs mailing list>> > pbs@lists.ibiblio.org> http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php>> > http://pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki> > _______________________________________________> > pbs mailing list> > pbs@lists.ibiblio.org> > http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php> > http://pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki> >> _______________________________________________> pbs mailing list> pbs@lists.ibiblio.org> http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php> http://pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki From jwaddick@kc.rr.com Thu Dec 13 09:18:18 2007 Message-Id: From: James Waddick Subject: Speaking of Brunsvigia.... Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2007 08:17:41 -0600 Dear Friends and Brunsvigia experts of all sorts, This picture of a 'Brunslycori' from a Japanese nursery is very interesting, but I doubt its authenticity. http://www.komoriya.co.jp/brunslycori.html As a primary hybrid between two very distinct genera, I see NO HINT of Lycoris in this flower head. Does anyone know or grow this cross? Does anyone recognize this a a 'straight' B. orientalis. Or does anyone see a hint of Lycoris. I am just VERY doubtful. Appreciate any thoughts. Jim W. -- Dr. James W. Waddick 8871 NW Brostrom Rd. Kansas City Missouri 64152-2711 USA Ph. 816-746-1949 Zone 5 Record low -23F Summer 100F + From jimmckenney@jimmckenney.com Thu Dec 13 09:45:15 2007 Message-Id: <000601c83d96$fd7940f0$2f01a8c0@Library> From: "Jim McKenney" Subject: what is a species et al. Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2007 09:46:43 -0500 Warning: ranting old guy alert! Dylan wrote: "Whatever the evidence employed, once substantiated monophyletic groups are worked out then the rank of those groups becomes "academic". Hence the subjective nature of taxonomic schemes and hence the everlasting hope of armchair botanists for more suitable arrangements." Well said, Dylan, although I want to quibble about one aspect of this statement. First, let's take another look at this concept species. Here's my version of the history of the concept in a nutshell: from the time of Plato and his concept of eidos (form) up until not quite a century ago, gross morphology was the only criterion generally considered in delimiting species. Then, as biologists began to realize the implications of what studies in genetics were telling them, the concept of population genetics arose and from it the idea that species were delimited by breeding behavior. In this view, two entities were members of the same species if they shared the same gene pool. The beauty of this concept is that it is relatively objective. Whereas in the old system based on morphology all of the traditional Linnaean ranks (species no more or less than the others) were determined subjectively, the "species as an interbreeding population" concept was not subjective in the same way: membership, so-to-speak, in a species was not subjectively determined by a taxonomist but rather by the breeding behavior of the entity in question. Those studying populations didn't determine what the breeding arrangements would be, the simply reported what they observed. This approach seemed to eliminate the main objection to traditional taxonomy - namely that it was subjective. I like to contrast the differences in these two approaches in this aphorism: two entities are not members of the same species because they look alike (that's the old taxonomic approach); it's the other way around - they look alike because they are members of the same species (i.e. they share the same gene pool). That's the insight derived from genetic studies. Although the gene pool concept resolved the main objection to traditional taxonomy (i.e. that it was blatantly subjective) and seemed to provide a modern, objective species concept which could be used for all sexually reproducing populations, it did not resolve the challenge posed by evolutionary studies. The problem, if it is one, with the gene pool concept is that it portrays species as a snap-shot of real life - the species so delimited is valid for only an instant. And what are the challenges posed by evolutionary studies? Unless you believe in special creation, then all existing species evolved from other species. When one species evolves from another, it's a gradual process. There is probably never a clear break. It's not as if the new species suddenly separates from the existing one; the ancestral species merges imperceptibly over time into the new species. Think about that for a moment: there is no boundary separating the ancestral and derived species. There has been an unbroken succession of parents and progeny over time. That they are distinct "species" is an illusion. Darwin himself seems to have been aware of this- and I cite Darwin only because he wrote a century and a half ago and some people still don't seem to have caught on. There really is no such thing as species in a purely objective sense except in the momentary sense - the gene pool concept does give us an objective view of species, but because natural populations are constantly shifting and changing, that view is valid only at the moment it is made. It's a lot like the conundrum posed by analytic a priori knowledge: the more certain you can be about something, the less relevance it has to the real world. As you can see, I take the view that species is as much a philosophical question as a purely scientific one. I don't expect DNA studies to resolve the species question. Every generation has had those who look to the latest technological innovations to solve the "species question". When I was a kid it was chromosome studies. Technological innovations provide wonderful insight, but they won't solve the species problem. We old guys sure do go on, don't we! I'm 64 now, and for the first time in my life I have that vague feeling that I wish I were younger, not just younger but at the beginning of my intellectual life. Why? Because of all the amazing technological innovations: where is it all going? I so envy those of you who can look forward to another fifty years: I can't even imagine what that world will be like. Thanks Joe for providing some links to broaden our horizons. One final thing. Dylan mentioned "the everlasting hope of armchair botanists for more suitable arrangements." But really, Dylan, isn't that what we all want? You can rest assured that the DNA guys will be making arrangements which suit them. I'm all for things making sense. Jim McKenney jimmckenney@jimmckenney.com Montgomery County, Maryland, USA, USDA zone 7 where Iris unguicularis continues to bloom. My Virtual Maryland Garden http://www.jimmckenney.com BLOG! http://mcwort.blogspot.com/ Webmaster Potomac Valley Chapter, NARGS Editor PVC Bulletin http://www.pvcnargs.org Webmaster Potomac Lily Society http://www.potomaclilysociety.org From msittner@mcn.org Thu Dec 13 11:26:24 2007 Message-Id: <5.2.0.9.2.20071213080024.03541170@mail.mcn.org> From: Mary Sue Ittner Subject: Brunsvigia Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2007 08:26:06 -0800 Hi, Not all Brunsvigia leaves look alike. If you look on the wiki you'll see some of the variety. In the Color Encyclopedia they are described as: "Leaves 2-20 but mostly 4-6, green or dry at flowering, suberect or pressed to the ground, oblong to tongue-shaped, the upper surface smooth to papillate or bristly, the margins usually raised, often minutely fringed." But I guess the difference Dylan is talking about is the midrib which only Amaryllis has making it different from the other genera in this family in South Africa. The Brunsvigia leaves are much more broad than Nerine leaves. I agree that some of the Brunsvigia flowers remind me of a large Nerine, but others have such a widely spreading umbel with flowers on the end of a long pedicel and don't look at all like Amaryllis belladonna or Nerine. The length of the pedicel is also significant in the key as the Amaryllis flowers are usually much longer than the pedicels. A lot of the Brunsvigia species after they bloom become a tumble weed distributing seeds as they go which is also very different from Amaryllis. Jim (Waddick) can look at some of the pictures of B. orientalis on the wiki. Mine has never bloomed. They look a lot like the picture he referenced of the hybrid. http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki/index.php/Brunsvigia And if you really want to get into a discussion of lumping what do member of this group think about putting Amaryllidaceae back into Alliaceae as proposed? Mary Sue From kelly@irvincentral.com Thu Dec 13 12:24:41 2007 Message-Id: <47616ACC.9030407@irvincentral.com> From: Kelly Irvin Subject: Speaking of Brunsvigia.... Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2007 11:24:28 -0600 Jim: I don't grow Brunsvigia orientalis, so I only can compare between the available images on the web. It does appear to me the pedical length is significantly shorter in the "primary" cross, compared to B. orientalis. The overall flower shape and posture, including style and filaments looks very similar to the other examples of B. orientalis. Color can't be trusted at all in a photo comparison, but color seems a bit different. It would be nice to see the foliage. The foliage would be somewhere in the middle in characteristics, I would guess. Technically, I could be convinced the floral characteristics mixed, but the taller, narrower foliage of Lycoris sprengeri would surely influence the characteristics. I'm vague on what little plant breeding training I received in college, but I seem to recall some forms of dominance that could mask 50/50 phenotypic characteristics in a primary cross??????????????? If it were fertile, it would surely be easier to tell in selfed seedling population. If it were infertile, that might be telling, too. Mr. Kelly M. Irvin 10850 Hodge Ln Gravette, AR 72736 USA 479-787-9958 USDA Cold Hardiness Zone 6a/b mailto:kelly@irvincentral.com http://www.irvincentral.com/ From jshields@indy.net Thu Dec 13 13:29:37 2007 Message-Id: <5.1.0.14.2.20071213114021.02727fe0@pop.indy.net> From: "J.E. Shields" Subject: Alliaceae vs. Amaryllidaceae Was: Brunsvigia Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2007 12:26:08 -0500 Hi all, Brunsvigia do not seem to do well under my growing conditions, or perhaps under my style of care. So I can't really comment on them. I have not read any really recent scientific papers on the justification for submerging Amaryllidaceae into Alliaceae, so I'm just going to share my personal prejudices here, and some older references. The molecular phylogenetic trees I have looked at seem to put the two plant groups very close together. However, from my perspective, it will always remain useful to refer to a plant family composed just of the Amaryllidaceae. I'm not much interested in Allium! The clades in phylogenetic trees do not smoothly fit into a hierarchy of Order - Family - Tribe - Genus with associated super- and sub- groups. How we take various clades is therefore going to be subjective matter, and one that various committees will no doubt pontificate on from time to time. That is how the system works. Nevertheless there seem to be few if any legal penalties for ignoring the committees. Professional taxonomists, whose career advancement depends on getting along with their prominent colleagues on those committees will clearly need to pay attention. The rest of us can pick and choose what we like from this. In 1996, in TAXON, Michael Fay and Mark Chase redefined Amaryllidaceae but still kept it as a family separate from Alliaceae. [Fay & Chase, TAXON 45 : 441ff, (1996)] In 1999, Ito et al. published some work on the matK gene that supported Amaryllidaceae as monophyletic, but (in the abstract at least) did not address relationship to Alliaceae. [Ito et al., J. Plant Research, vol. 112 : pp. 207-216 (1999)] Also in 1999, Meerow et al. published a paper on Amaryllidaceae and its relation to other groups. They found that Agapanthaceae was a sister group to Amaryllidaceae, and that Alliaceae was the sister group to the Agapanthaceae-Amaryllidaceae clade. [Meerow, Fay, Guy, Li, Zaman, and Chase, AMER. J. BOTANY 86 : 1325-1345 (1999)] Since both these families are now considered to be in the order Asparagales (and I heartily agree!), and the two "families" are pretty certain to be very closely related (again I definitely agree), we just need a superfamily to include Alliaceae and Amaryllidaceae and a suborder just below Asparagales, to include the Alliaceae-superfamily with some of the other related clades in Asparagales. Then again, in October of 2007 (about 2 months ago) Alan Meerow, James Reveal, Dee Snijman, and Julie Dutilh posted a proposal to "superconserve" the name Amaryllidaceae (1805) over the name Alliaceae (1797) for a merged family to contain both groups. The proposal has been accepted for publication in TAXON, and the abstract is on-line at: http://www.ars.usda.gov/research/publications/publications.htm?seq_no_115=215465 Based on Alan's 1999 paper, the Agapanthaceae would have to be included along with Amaryllidaceae in the new enlarged family, be it called Alliaceae or Amaryllidaceae. Interesting, isn't it? Jim Shields Searches done using Google Scholar at: http://scholar.google.com/scholar?q=alliaceae+amaryllidaceae&hl=en&lr=&start=20&sa=N ************************************************* Jim Shields USDA Zone 5 Shields Gardens, Ltd. P.O. Box 92 WWW: http://www.shieldsgardens.com/ Westfield, Indiana 46074, USA Tel. ++1-317-867-3344 or toll-free 1-866-449-3344 in USA From jshields104@insightbb.com Thu Dec 13 12:40:36 2007 Message-Id: <5.1.0.14.2.20071213123238.02734530@mail.insightbb.com> From: "J.E. Shields" Subject: Nerine Virus X Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2007 12:40:40 -0500 Ten or more years ago, the late Sir Peter Smithers claimed that there must be an endogenous, latent plant virus in Nerine sarniensis. The reason for this was that feeding Nerine (broadleaf species and hybrids) with nitrogen-containing fertilizers caused them to exhibit leaf markings characteristic of viral infections. This could also, as far as I can recall now, lead to decline and perhaps death of the "infected" plants. In my Google Scholar search on Amaryllidaceae, the following entry popped up: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/ICTVdb/ICTVdB/00.056.0.01.012.htm This virus might not be whatever was causing the effects that Sir Peter described. This one grows only sparsely in Nerine sarniensis. It does much better in Agapanthus. It must be transmitted mechanically, not being passed through pollen, seeds, or casual contact between leaves. The name applied is Nerine Virus X but it has also been called Agapanthus Virus X. Best wishes, Jim Shields in chilly central Indiana (USA) ************************************************* Jim Shields USDA Zone 5 Shields Gardens, Ltd. P.O. Box 92 WWW: http://www.shieldsgardens.com/ Westfield, Indiana 46074, USA Tel. ++1-317-867-3344 or toll-free 1-866-449-3344 in USA From othonna@gmail.com Thu Dec 13 14:19:00 2007 Message-Id: <8e8da5260712131118t12c3d0e2xd6bf72fb6dc94d18@mail.gmail.com> From: Hannon Subject: Sinking Brunsvigia Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2007 11:18:59 -0800 Yes, the "gestalt" of A vs B is undeniable. Hadn't heard about that move by Bruyns. Reference? Are Synadenium and Endadenium doomed as well? On Dec 12, 2007 11:57 PM, Tim Harvey wrote: > > Well I bet there are a whole bunch of different genes and associated > regulators requred to give a leaf a midrib, and we'll very likely not know > what they are this century! > > I agree, philosophically speaking. > > Why on earth Bruyns stuck Monadenium into Euphorbia I'll never understand, > but I can tell a Brunsvigia from an Amaryllis ... > > T> Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2007 23:51:00 -0800> From: othonna@gmail.com> To: > pbs@lists.ibiblio.org> Subject: Re: [pbs] Sinking Brunsvigia> > Tim,> > Whatever the evidence employed, once substantiated monophyletic groups are> > worked out then the rank of those groups becomes "academic". Hence the> > subjective nature of taxonomic schemes and hence the everlasting hope of> > armchair botanists for more suitable arrangements.> Dylan> > On Dec 12, 2007 > 9:45 PM, Tim Harvey wrote:> > >> > Oh, I see another > genus akin to Euphorbia in the making! I believe some> > investigation of > these relationships have been done at the DNA level, though> > I regard such > data as important as other physical descriptors.> >> > T> Date: Wed, 12 Dec > 2007 19:40:02 -0800> From: othonna@gmail.com> To:> > pbs@lists.ibiblio.org> > Subject: Re: [pbs] Sinking Brunsvigia> > Leo, Jim--> > I've also felt it > would be sensible to at least consider this> merger. They> > are separated > by seemingly non-profound > details of the seeds> and the leaves> > with midrib (Amaryllis) or > without (Brunsvigia), whereas the> traits in> > common are overwhelming. Is > morphological homogeneity important in> defining> > genera? How important?> > The same applies to the seemingly artificial> > distinction of Hessea from> > Strumaria, based on somewhat variable character> > states. Carpolyza has> > already been lumped under the latter. I suppose the> > taxonomists are happy > to> rely more on molecular data when the going gets> > tough regarding when > to> split and when to lump.> Dylan> > On Dec 12, 2007> > 1:23 PM, Leo A. > Martin wrote:> > > > One other way to get> > more species: > given the easy "hybridization" of> > > Amaryllis and> > Brunsvigia, I've > long been wait> > ing for someone to combine> > > those genera: the plants > have already> > done it, now it's time for the> > > taxonomists to catch > up.> > >> > > Jim> > McKenney> >> > That would be great! Amaryllis (1753) is > so much easier to> > > grow than> > Brunsvigia (1755)!> >> > Leo Martin> > Phoenix Arizona USA> > >>> > > _______________________________________________> > pbs mailing list> > >> > pbs@lists.ibiblio.org> > > http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php> >> > > http://pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki> >>> > > _______________________________________________> pbs mailing list>> > > pbs@lists.ibiblio.org> http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php>> > > http://pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki> > > _______________________________________________> > pbs mailing list> > > pbs@lists.ibiblio.org> > http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php> > > http://pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki> >> > _______________________________________________> pbs mailing list> > pbs@lists.ibiblio.org> http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php> > http://pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki > _______________________________________________ > pbs mailing list > pbs@lists.ibiblio.org > http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php > http://pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki > From othonna@gmail.com Thu Dec 13 14:33:34 2007 Message-Id: <8e8da5260712131133j7de4261bv19e0ce752354d84c@mail.gmail.com> From: Hannon Subject: Brunsvigia Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2007 11:33:31 -0800 Mary Sue, Thanks for pointing out the tumbleweed inflorescence difference. Perhaps this correlates with the rounded seeds of Brunsvigia, versus the slightly compressed-angled seeds of Amaryllis. From "Cape Plants" (Goldblatt & Manning 2000) these characters are used to separate Amaryllis from both Nerine and Brunsvigia: 1 Leaves with a prominent midrib; perianth longer than 8cm; seeds slightly angled by compression, pink to colourless, only embryo green.... Amaryllis 1' Leaves without a midrib; flowers shorter than 8cm; seeds ovoid, usually reddish, integument and embryo green.... Brunsvigia, Nerine, Crossyne It is more fun to think about the relationships of plants than to think about the consequences of rearranging their nomenclature! Dylan On Dec 13, 2007 8:26 AM, Mary Sue Ittner wrote: > Hi, > > Not all Brunsvigia leaves look alike. If you look on the wiki you'll see > some of the variety. In the Color Encyclopedia they are described as: > "Leaves 2-20 but mostly 4-6, green or dry at flowering, suberect or > pressed > to the ground, oblong to tongue-shaped, the upper surface smooth to > papillate or bristly, the margins usually raised, often minutely fringed." > But I guess the difference Dylan is talking about is the midrib which only > Amaryllis has making it different from the other genera in this family in > South Africa. The Brunsvigia leaves are much more broad than Nerine > leaves. > > I agree that some of the Brunsvigia flowers remind me of a large Nerine, > but others have such a widely spreading umbel with flowers on the end of a > long pedicel and don't look at all like Amaryllis belladonna or Nerine. > The > length of the pedicel is also significant in the key as the Amaryllis > flowers are usually much longer than the pedicels. A lot of the > Brunsvigia > species after they bloom become a tumble weed distributing seeds as they > go > which is also very different from Amaryllis. > > Jim (Waddick) can look at some of the pictures of B. orientalis on the > wiki. Mine has never bloomed. They look a lot like the picture he > referenced of the hybrid. > > http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki/index.php/Brunsvigia > > And if you really want to get into a discussion of lumping what do member > of this group think about putting Amaryllidaceae back into Alliaceae as > proposed? > > Mary Sue > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > pbs mailing list > pbs@lists.ibiblio.org > http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php > http://pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki > From zigur@hotmail.com Thu Dec 13 14:49:44 2007 Message-Id: From: Tim Harvey Subject: Sinking Brunsvigia Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2007 11:49:43 -0800 All gone ... http://www.ingentaconnect.com/content/iapt/tax/2006/00000055/00000002/art00013 T> Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2007 11:18:59 -0800> From: othonna@gmail.com> To: pbs@lists.ibiblio.org> Subject: Re: [pbs] Sinking Brunsvigia> > Yes, the "gestalt" of A vs B is undeniable.> Hadn't heard about that move by Bruyns. Reference? Are Synadenium and> Endadenium doomed as well?> > On Dec 12, 2007 11:57 PM, Tim Harvey wrote:> > >> > Well I bet there are a whole bunch of different genes and associated> > regulators requred to give a leaf a midrib, and we'll very likely not know> > what they are this century!> >> > I agree, philosophically speaking.> >> > Why on earth Bruyns stuck Monadenium into Euphorbia I'll never understand,> > but I can tell a Brunsvigia from an Amaryllis ...> >> > T> Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2007 23:51:00 -0800> From: othonna@gmail.com> To:> > pbs@lists.ibiblio.org> Subject: Re: [pbs] Sinking Brunsvigia> > Tim,>> > Whatever the evidence employed, once substantiated monophyletic groups are>> > worked out then the rank of those groups becomes "academic". Hence the>> > subjective nature of taxonomic schemes and hence the everlasting hope of>> > armchair botanists for more suitable arrangements.> Dylan> > On Dec 12, 2007> > 9:45 PM, Tim Harvey wrote:> > >> > Oh, I see another> > genus akin to Euphorbia in the making! I believe some> > investigation of> > these relationships have been done at the DNA level, though> > I regard such> > data as important as other physical descriptors.> >> > T> Date: Wed, 12 Dec> > 2007 19:40:02 -0800> From: othonna@gmail.com> To:> > pbs@lists.ibiblio.org>> > Subject: Re: [pbs] Sinking Brunsvigia> > Leo, Jim--> > I've also felt it> > would be sensible to at least consider this> merger. They> > are separated> > by seemingly non-profound> > details of the seeds> and the leaves> > with midrib (Amaryllis) or> > without (Brunsvigia), whereas the> traits in> > common are overwhelming. Is> > morphological homogeneity important in> defining> > genera? How important?>> > The same applies to the seemingly artificial> > distinction of Hessea from>> > Strumaria, based on somewhat variable character> > states. Carpolyza has>> > already been lumped under the latter. I suppose the> > taxonomists are happy> > to> rely more on molecular data when the going gets> > tough regarding when> > to> split and when to lump.> Dylan> > On Dec 12, 2007> > 1:23 PM, Leo A.> > Martin wrote:> > > > One other way to get> > more species:> > given the easy "hybridization" of> > > Amaryllis and> > Brunsvigia, I've> > long been wait> > ing for someone to combine> > > those genera: the plants> > have already> > done it, now it's time for the> > > taxonomists to catch> > up.> > >> > > Jim> > McKenney> >> > That would be great! Amaryllis (1753) is> > so much easier to> >> > grow than> > Brunsvigia (1755)!> >> > Leo Martin> > Phoenix Arizona USA>> > >>> > > _______________________________________________> > pbs mailing list>> > >> > pbs@lists.ibiblio.org> >> > http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php> >> >> > http://pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki> >>> >> > _______________________________________________> pbs mailing list>> >> > pbs@lists.ibiblio.org> http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php>> >> > http://pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki> >> > _______________________________________________> > pbs mailing list> >> > pbs@lists.ibiblio.org> > http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php> >> > http://pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki> >>> > _______________________________________________> pbs mailing list>> > pbs@lists.ibiblio.org> http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php>> > http://pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki> > _______________________________________________> > pbs mailing list> > pbs@lists.ibiblio.org> > http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php> > http://pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki> >> _______________________________________________> pbs mailing list> pbs@lists.ibiblio.org> http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php> http://pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki From brown.mark@wanadoo.fr Thu Dec 13 15:20:15 2007 Message-Id: <23141911.756131197577213481.JavaMail.www@wwinf1622> From: Mark BROWN Subject: what is a species et al. Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2007 21:20:13 +0100 (CET) Dear Mr McKenny, What a wonderful clear and calm view.Thank-you for your viewpoint.I am making a fairly comprehensive study of primitive angiosperms.And cladistics the best way forward,are our best hope of being as objective as possible,are so valuable because they use all traits and not just genetics to make as clear a picture as possible.Plant fossils are wonderful eye openers too.They contain bizarre mixes of modern plant traits and thus are a lesson for all who try to understand plants today,which as you quite rightly say are only snapshots in time.Paleobotany is a humbling science for overzealous taxonomists.We must always tread some middle path of reason between "lumpers and splitters" anyway. Mark W.Brown brown.mark@wanadoo.fr > Message du 13/12/07 15:45 > De : "Jim McKenney" > A : "'Pacific Bulb Society'" > Copie à : > Objet : [pbs] what is a species et al. > > Warning: ranting old guy alert! > > Dylan wrote: "Whatever the evidence employed, once substantiated > monophyletic groups are worked out then the rank of those groups becomes > "academic". Hence the subjective nature of taxonomic schemes and hence the > everlasting hope of armchair botanists for more suitable arrangements." > > Well said, Dylan, although I want to quibble about one aspect of this > statement. > > First, let's take another look at this concept species. Here's my version of > the history of the concept in a nutshell: from the time of Plato and his > concept of eidos (form) up until not quite a century ago, gross morphology > was the only criterion generally considered in delimiting species. > > Then, as biologists began to realize the implications of what studies in > genetics were telling them, the concept of population genetics arose and > from it the idea that species were delimited by breeding behavior. In this > view, two entities were members of the same species if they shared the same > gene pool. The beauty of this concept is that it is relatively objective. > Whereas in the old system based on morphology all of the traditional > Linnaean ranks (species no more or less than the others) were determined > subjectively, the "species as an interbreeding population" concept was not > subjective in the same way: membership, so-to-speak, in a species was not > subjectively determined by a taxonomist but rather by the breeding behavior > of the entity in question. Those studying populations didn't determine what > the breeding arrangements would be, the simply reported what they observed. > This approach seemed to eliminate the main objection to traditional taxonomy > - namely that it was subjective. > > I like to contrast the differences in these two approaches in this aphorism: > two entities are not members of the same species because they look alike > (that's the old taxonomic approach); it's the other way around - they look > alike because they are members of the same species (i.e. they share the same > gene pool). That's the insight derived from genetic studies. > > Although the gene pool concept resolved the main objection to traditional > taxonomy (i.e. that it was blatantly subjective) and seemed to provide a > modern, objective species concept which could be used for all sexually > reproducing populations, it did not resolve the challenge posed by > evolutionary studies. The problem, if it is one, with the gene pool concept > is that it portrays species as a snap-shot of real life - the species so > delimited is valid for only an instant. > > And what are the challenges posed by evolutionary studies? Unless you > believe in special creation, then all existing species evolved from other > species. When one species evolves from another, it's a gradual process. > There is probably never a clear break. It's not as if the new species > suddenly separates from the existing one; the ancestral species merges > imperceptibly over time into the new species. Think about that for a moment: > there is no boundary separating the ancestral and derived species. There has > been an unbroken succession of parents and progeny over time. That they are > distinct "species" is an illusion. Darwin himself seems to have been aware > of this- and I cite Darwin only because he wrote a century and a half ago > and some people still don't seem to have caught on. > > There really is no such thing as species in a purely objective sense except > in the momentary sense - the gene pool concept does give us an objective > view of species, but because natural populations are constantly shifting and > changing, that view is valid only at the moment it is made. > > It's a lot like the conundrum posed by analytic a priori knowledge: the more > certain you can be about something, the less relevance it has to the real > world. > > As you can see, I take the view that species is as much a philosophical > question as a purely scientific one. I don't expect DNA studies to resolve > the species question. Every generation has had those who look to the latest > technological innovations to solve the "species question". When I was a kid > it was chromosome studies. Technological innovations provide wonderful > insight, but they won't solve the species problem. > > We old guys sure do go on, don't we! I'm 64 now, and for the first time in > my life I have that vague feeling that I wish I were younger, not just > younger but at the beginning of my intellectual life. Why? Because of all > the amazing technological innovations: where is it all going? I so envy > those of you who can look forward to another fifty years: I can't even > imagine what that world will be like. > > Thanks Joe for providing some links to broaden our horizons. > > One final thing. Dylan mentioned "the everlasting hope of armchair botanists > for more suitable arrangements." But really, Dylan, isn't that what we all > want? You can rest assured that the DNA guys will be making arrangements > which suit them. > > I'm all for things making sense. > > Jim McKenney > jimmckenney@jimmckenney.com > Montgomery County, Maryland, USA, USDA zone 7 where Iris unguicularis > continues to bloom. > My Virtual Maryland Garden http://www.jimmckenney.com > BLOG! http://mcwort.blogspot.com/ > > Webmaster Potomac Valley Chapter, NARGS > Editor PVC Bulletin http://www.pvcnargs.org > > Webmaster Potomac Lily Society http://www.potomaclilysociety.org > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > pbs mailing list > pbs@lists.ibiblio.org > http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php > http://pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki > > From rpries@sbcglobal.net Thu Dec 13 21:42:34 2007 Message-Id: <608714.563.qm@web81912.mail.mud.yahoo.com> From: Robt R Pries Subject: Rain Lilies Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2007 18:42:33 -0800 (PST) Dear rain lily enthusiasts; I am continuing on my quest to produce a rain lily checklist. I now have more than a majority of the original diagnoses of rain lily species in my notes and have found over 160 cultivar names in the literature. When my work is finished it will be made available to the bulb societies. But I am trying to be very fastidious in documenting and verifying my information. I have already noticed that misinformation has crept onto the internet. I am hoping that this checklist will eliminate the errors that are beginning occur. I am putting out this message to ask that if I have not already contacted you, to please e-mail me if you are hybridizing rain lilies,or have created a new clone, and might distribute it at some point in the future. If you grow a number of clones I would like your input to see if they are carrying the right names. As yet there is no comprehensive reference to the work that has been done and is being done with rain lilies. I am hoping with the help of many collaborators to provide a reference and acknowledgement of our current history that will otherwise be lost. I applaud the PBS wikki and I would hope that you will all support it. Bit many clones and species have not been photographed. This checklist will provide a comprehensive reference that will be vetted by as many experts as possible. If you are willing to help I will add you to the list of contributors an honor that future gardeners should respect. Contact me at rpries@sbcglobal.net From meenglis@meenglis.cts.com Fri Dec 14 01:39:17 2007 Message-Id: <4762250B.90102@meenglis.cts.com> From: Marguerite English Subject: Question about Naked Ladies Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2007 22:39:07 -0800 What is the difference between Amaryllis belladona and Lycoris squam.? This came up at a recent garden club member discussion because almost none of these flowers bloomed in Aug., and someone noticed the foliage starting up recently. We have many sites throughout the community where 'Naked Ladies' generally bloom with no human interference. Usually, we have a couple of heavy rains in August, which seems to get them on their way. This summer, we assumed the lack of bloom was due to lack of water during the summer. So were we right, and what is the difference from a gardener (non-botanist) point of view? From Descanso, Ca., in the Southern California foothills - USDA zone 7 or so. From kelly@irvincentral.com Fri Dec 14 06:19:57 2007 Message-Id: <476266CE.8000807@irvincentral.com> From: Kelly Irvin Subject: Question about Naked Ladies Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2007 05:19:42 -0600 Hi, Marguerite: Your quickest distinction will be foliage emergence. Amaryllis belladonna will push foliage in the fall. Lycoris squamigera will begin to push foliage in February. Mr. Kelly M. Irvin 10850 Hodge Ln Gravette, AR 72736 USA 479-787-9958 USDA Cold Hardiness Zone 6a/b mailto:kelly@irvincentral.com http://www.irvincentral.com/ Marguerite English wrote: > What is the difference between Amaryllis belladona and Lycoris squam.? > From jshields@indy.net Fri Dec 14 09:27:27 2007 Message-Id: <5.1.0.14.2.20071214092104.02737900@pop.indy.net> From: "J.E. Shields" Subject: Question about Naked Ladies Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2007 09:27:36 -0500 Hi Marguerite and all, Besides what Kelly mentioned, I might add that Lycoris squamigera usually needs some pretty cold weather in winter to be able to grow and survive. I'm not sure where Descanso is, but I'll bet you don't get much frost in winter! This being the case, you can probably safely assume that any "Naked Lady" you see in Southern California is Amaryllis belladonna, not Lycoris squamigera. Now, having said that, has anyone grown Lycoris squamigera successfully in Southern California? Lycoris squamigera and some of the other hardy Lycoris do rather well here in the Midwest, but I've found over the years that Amaryllis belladonna and the various Brunsvigia are almost impossible to grow here, even with greenhouses. Just the reverse of what I assume holds for Southern California. Best wishes, Jim Shields in cold central Indiana (USA) where a winter storm seems to be on its way ************************************************* Jim Shields USDA Zone 5 Shields Gardens, Ltd. P.O. Box 92 WWW: http://www.shieldsgardens.com/ Westfield, Indiana 46074, USA Tel. ++1-317-867-3344 or toll-free 1-866-449-3344 in USA From jimmckenney@jimmckenney.com Fri Dec 14 10:57:11 2007 Message-Id: <000301c83e6a$35690670$2f01a8c0@Library> From: "Jim McKenney" Subject: Sun! Crocuses! Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2007 10:58:44 -0500 After what seems like weeks of dull, cold weather (but really only a few days) the sun is out and warm this morning. And some crocuses which have been furled tightly for days are now wide open and deliciously fragrant: Crocus longiflorus, C. goulimyi, C. ochroleucus and c. sativus. I'm enjoying it while I can because nasty stuff is on the way. Jim McKenney jimmckenney@jimmckenney.com Montgomery County, Maryland, USA, USDA zone 7 My Virtual Maryland Garden http://www.jimmckenney.com BLOG! http://mcwort.blogspot.com/ Webmaster Potomac Valley Chapter, NARGS Editor PVC Bulletin http://www.pvcnargs.org Webmaster Potomac Lily Society http://www.potomaclilysociety.org From jshields@indy.net Fri Dec 14 11:06:21 2007 Message-Id: <5.1.0.14.2.20071214105623.0274ac10@pop.indy.net> From: "J.E. Shields" Subject: Speaking of Brunsvigia.... Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2007 11:06:29 -0500 Hi Jim W. and all, I don't know much of anything about Brunsvigia; but I did see, some 25-30 years ago, some wide intergeneric hybrids in the Amaryllidaceae. They were all produced by embryo rescue. The plants looked vaguely distorted, both leaves and flowers. One I recall was Crinum X Hippeastrum. That work was done by Margot Williams at a USDA experimental station outside Washington DC in the 1970s. I would have to say that, without documentation proving the bigeneric nature of the plant (chromosomes, DNA, how was it produced?), we should assume it is NOT an intergeneric plant. Plants that are self-fertile or prone to apomixis can easily produce seeds that do not contain exogenous DNA. Clivia are notorious for producing so-called Clivia-Lycoris hybrids, that look just like Clivia. I'd take all such claims with a carload of salt until the claimant produces scientific evidence. Wishful thinking can lead to abundant self-delusion otherwise. Best wishes, Jim Shields in central Indiana (USA) At 08:17 AM 12/13/2007 -0600, you wrote: >Dear Friends and Brunsvigia experts of all sorts, > > This picture of a 'Brunslycori' from a Japanese nursery is >very interesting, but I doubt its authenticity. > > http://www.komoriya.co.jp/brunslycori.html > > As a primary hybrid between two very distinct genera, I see >NO HINT of Lycoris in this flower head. ..... ************************************************* Jim Shields USDA Zone 5 Shields Gardens, Ltd. P.O. Box 92 WWW: http://www.shieldsgardens.com/ Westfield, Indiana 46074, USA Tel. ++1-317-867-3344 or toll-free 1-866-449-3344 in USA From jimmckenney@jimmckenney.com Fri Dec 14 11:05:38 2007 Message-Id: <000401c83e6b$646347f0$2f01a8c0@Library> From: "Jim McKenney" Subject: Question about Naked Ladies Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2007 11:07:12 -0500 Jim Shields and others: you might want to go back and re-read the postings from Lauw Dejager and myself on this topic. Lauw lives in an area which allows him to have both Phoenix canariensis (a date palm which in east coast of North America terms is a zone 9 plant) and flourishing, flowering Lycoris squamigera. There is a puzzle here I don't understand. Jim McKenney jimmckenney@jimmckenney.com Montgomery County, Maryland, USA, USDA zone 7 My Virtual Maryland Garden http://www.jimmckenney.com BLOG! http://mcwort.blogspot.com/ Webmaster Potomac Valley Chapter, NARGS Editor PVC Bulletin http://www.pvcnargs.org Webmaster Potomac Lily Society http://www.potomaclilysociety.org From jshields@indy.net Fri Dec 14 11:46:52 2007 Message-Id: <5.1.0.14.2.20071214114526.0272bf40@pop.indy.net> From: "J.E. Shields" Subject: Question about Naked Ladies Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2007 11:47:00 -0500 Jim McK, You're right, I had completely forgotten that discussion; and it does seriously puzzle me, too. Jim Shields At 11:07 AM 12/14/2007 -0500, you wrote: >Jim Shields and others: you might want to go back and re-read the postings >from Lauw Dejager and myself on this topic. Lauw lives in an area which >allows him to have both Phoenix canariensis (a date palm which in east coast >of North America terms is a zone 9 plant) and flourishing, flowering Lycoris >squamigera. > >There is a puzzle here I don't understand. > >Jim McKenney Jim Shields USDA Zone 5 Shields Gardens, Ltd. P.O. Box 92 WWW: http://www.shieldsgardens.com/ Westfield, Indiana 46074, USA Tel. ++1-317-867-3344 or toll-free 1-866-449-3344 in USA From tony@plantdelights.com Fri Dec 14 12:33:40 2007 Message-Id: <4762BE71.2020309@plantdelights.com> From: Tony Avent Subject: Question about Naked Ladies Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2007 12:33:37 -0500 Jim and Jim: When I visited Argentina, I was fascinated to see tropical trees growing alongside Zone 5 trees. The key is the temperature at which winter chilling is effective for the cold-requiring species. It seems that some plants actually get adequate winter chilling if there are enough hours between 40 and 45 degrees F. This is what allows plants with seemingly opposite temperature requirements to be happy together in climates that never freeze. I suspect there may be something similar at work with the bulbs. Tony Avent Plant Delights Nursery @ Juniper Level Botanic Garden 9241 Sauls Road Raleigh, North Carolina 27603 USA Minimum Winter Temps 0-5 F Maximum Summer Temps 95-105F USDA Hardiness Zone 7b email tony@plantdelights.com website http://www.plantdelights.com phone 919 772-4794 fax 919 772-4752 "I consider every plant hardy until I have killed it myself...at least three times" - Avent J.E. Shields wrote: > Jim McK, > > You're right, I had completely forgotten that discussion; and it does > seriously puzzle me, too. > > Jim Shields > > > At 11:07 AM 12/14/2007 -0500, you wrote: > >> Jim Shields and others: you might want to go back and re-read the postings >> > >from Lauw Dejager and myself on this topic. Lauw lives in an area which > >> allows him to have both Phoenix canariensis (a date palm which in east coast >> of North America terms is a zone 9 plant) and flourishing, flowering Lycoris >> squamigera. >> >> There is a puzzle here I don't understand. >> >> Jim McKenney >> > > Jim Shields USDA Zone 5 Shields Gardens, Ltd. > P.O. Box 92 WWW: http://www.shieldsgardens.com/ > Westfield, Indiana 46074, USA > Tel. ++1-317-867-3344 or toll-free 1-866-449-3344 in USA > > > _______________________________________________ > pbs mailing list > pbs@lists.ibiblio.org > http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php > http://pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki > > From jimmckenney@jimmckenney.com Fri Dec 14 13:08:53 2007 Message-Id: <000001c83e7c$9ab55120$2f01a8c0@Library> From: "Jim McKenney" Subject: Question about Naked Ladies Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2007 13:10:25 -0500 Thanks, Tony. Friends who have traveled in parts of Mexico have described similar things to be seen in the higher elevation forests of that country. Before posting on this topic today, I Googled Phoenix canariensis to double check its cold tolerance. The wikipedia entry gives a low temperature tolerance for this species of -10 to -12 degrees C (= roughly 10 to 12 degrees F) so long as those temperatures do not persist for long periods. That puts it well within what we here in the eastern states think of as zone 8 (in fact, almost borderline very mild zone 7, Tony's and my zone). But I don't think either of us is planning to line the driveway with Phoenix canariensis! Obviously, duration of these temperatures plays a huge role. Evidently it's just a serendipitous thing that there are places where it stays cold/cool long enough to allow the Lycoris to thrive without getting cold long enough for the Phoenix to be damaged. And I'll bet that for both the Lycoris and the Phoenix rainfall patterns influence this unexpected pairing. Dry Mediterranean summers no doubt harden the Phoenix and allow it to withstand a bit more cold than that which will be tolerated by Phoenix growing in summer wet areas (e.g. eastern North America). As for the Lycoris, as long as it doesn't get too dry, it's just biding its time. Jim McKenney jimmckenney@jimmckenney.com Montgomery County, Maryland, USA, USDA zone 7 My Virtual Maryland Garden http://www.jimmckenney.com BLOG! http://mcwort.blogspot.com/ Webmaster Potomac Valley Chapter, NARGS Editor PVC Bulletin http://www.pvcnargs.org Webmaster Potomac Lily Society http://www.potomaclilysociety.org From jwaddick@kc.rr.com Fri Dec 14 15:14:52 2007 Message-Id: From: James Waddick Subject: Different Naked Ladies - Lycoirsaversus Amaryllis Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2007 14:14:48 -0600 Dear All, Botanically Amaryllis and Lycoris although both members of the Amaryllidaceae, they are not very close. The 2 most distinct morphological characters are that Lycoris has only 2 spathes beneath the flower head* and a curved floral/perianth tube, while Amaryllis has three or more spathes and a straight floral/perianth tube. Spathe here refers to the large bracts enclosing the entire developing flower head. I suppose it is possible that an aberrant Amaryllis might just have two. And in Amaryllis the perianth tube can be very short, but it is much longer (and curves) in most Lycoris. Less obvious of course is that Lycoris is strictly E. Asian versus Amaryllis from S. Africa. Lycoris consist of two major groups: those with spring foliage which are generally hardy in the north and don't do as well in the south ( e.g. L. squamigera), and a second group (subgenus) with foliage that emerges in fall and does better in the south and less hardy and/ or floriferous in the north (e.g. L. radiata). Both 'in general'. Amaryllis is basically cultivated like Hippeastrum and does not flourish in northern gardens. Neither performs well in pots. Both bloom on bare stems. The color range of Amaryllis (2 species) is far more restricted than that of Lycoris with over 20 species and numerous hybrids. Amaryllis usually prefers a dry summer (baking), whereas Lycoris does not want to dry out as completely and tolerates/prefers summer moisture. Once you are familiar with either, they look obviously distinct. Does this help? Best Jim W. * The spathes usually dry up at bloom http://pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki/files/Lycoris/Lycoris_sprengeri_BD.jpg -- Dr. James W. Waddick 8871 NW Brostrom Rd. Kansas City Missouri 64152-2711 USA Ph. 816-746-1949 Zone 5 Record low -23F Summer 100F + From meenglis@meenglis.cts.com Fri Dec 14 16:05:30 2007 Message-Id: <4762F018.5030007@meenglis.cts.com> From: Marguerite English Subject: Different Naked Ladies - Lycoirsaversus Amaryllis Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2007 13:05:28 -0800 Thank you Kelly, Tony, Jim, Jim, James et al. The comments do help and I thank you all. I do live where it snows a few times in winter. It is a mild winter for most of you, but I do get enough chill hours to grow several fruit trees that don't do well in the lower elevations. I live near Julian, which is famous for its apples, and near the Laguna mountains which draw all the local 'flatlanders' for snow days all winter. California has many climates and I am in an unusual one. I get real winter, real baking summer in the fall, a spring that is usually 1 week long between the two... and don't forget the winds and wildfires! I have grown both Lycoris squamigera and Amaryllis on my property at 3700 ft altitude. The Amaryllis only lasted a year and that was in 2002 before the Cedar fire burned over my gardens. That one didn't survive and I haven't ordered one since. I have planted several Lycoris here, and still have some of those. And the foliage comments are interesting to check out. L. radiata has foliage developing now, and the L. squamigera is nowhere in sight. I think L. aurea disappeared last year. I will get my gardening friends to gather some local samples for me next summer and check out the keys to identify garden escapees. Our conversation was started because someone was just seeing the foliage, so that does suggest for the Amaryllis. Thank you again. Marguerite in chilly mountains of Southern California where the storm just left! Thank God for real rain!!!! James Waddick wrote: > Does this help? > > Best Jim W. > > From odysseybulbs@earthlink.net Fri Dec 14 17:01:05 2007 Message-Id: From: "Russell Stafford, Odyssey Bulbs" Subject: Different Naked Ladies - Lycoirsaversus Amaryllis Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2007 17:01:04 -0500 Although I remember Bill Welch reporting that his Amaryllis belladonna put on their best performance the one summer they accidentally received some irrigation..... At 03:14 PM 12/14/2007, Jim Waddick wrote: > Amaryllis usually prefers a dry summer (baking), whereas >Lycoris does not want to dry out as completely and tolerates/prefers >summer moisture. Russell Stafford Odyssey Bulbs PO Box 382 South Lancaster, MA 01561 508-335-8106 From jwaddick@kc.rr.com Fri Dec 14 18:37:05 2007 Message-Id: From: James Waddick Subject: Lycoris versus Amaryllis Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2007 16:24:06 -0600 >Although I remember Bill Welch reporting that his Amaryllis >belladonna put on their best performance the one summer they >accidentally received some irrigation..... > >At 03:14 PM 12/14/2007, Jim Waddick wrote: >> Amaryllis usually prefers a dry summer (baking), whereas >>Lycoris does not want to dry out as completely and tolerates/prefers > >summer moisture. Dear Russell, The one and only time I ever got bloom on A. belladonna was the year I stuck a pot out in the hot sun and never purposely watered it - just a bit of summer rains. I got rid of most bulbs, but found a couple pots coming up and growing now in my cool greenhouse. Most people outside of S. Cal and W. Coast don't have much luck with this, I think. Best Jim W. -- Dr. James W. Waddick 8871 NW Brostrom Rd. Kansas City Missouri 64152-2711 USA Ph. 816-746-1949 Zone 5 Record low -23F Summer 100F + From rpries@sbcglobal.net Fri Dec 14 18:28:31 2007 Message-Id: <314354.64727.qm@web81908.mail.mud.yahoo.com> From: Robt R Pries Subject: Zephyranthes x bipuertorosea Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2007 15:28:31 -0800 (PST) Scott Ogden (2007) notes this is a hybrid series created by Padre Julio Cicero, tender plants, flowers shades of scarlet, salmon, and apricot pink. Z. bifolia/Z. puertoricensis hybrids, which because Z. bifolia is now placed in Habranthus would make this a Zephybranthes. Does anyone know where this name, Zephyranthes x bipuertorosea, was first published. From leo@possi.org Fri Dec 14 18:38:18 2007 Message-Id: <31888.64.216.15.126.1197675484.squirrel@www.possi.org> From: "Leo A. Martin" Subject: Question about Naked Ladies Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2007 16:38:04 -0700 (MST) Marguerite wrote > What is the difference between Amaryllis belladona and Lycoris squam.? > This came up at a recent garden club member discussion because almost > none of these flowers bloomed in Aug., and someone noticed the foliage > starting up recently. > > We have many sites throughout the community where 'Naked Ladies' > generally bloom with no human interference. Usually, we have a couple of > heavy rains in August, which seems to get them on their way. This > summer, we assumed the lack of bloom was due to lack of water during the > summer. Kelly replied > Your quickest distinction will be foliage emergence. Amaryllis > belladonna will push foliage in the fall. Lycoris squamigera will begin > to push foliage in February. Ummm... Maybe Marguerite meant Lycoris radiata, the red one (hurricane lilies to some.) It grows easily and blooms readily in our warmer-wintered Western climates. Its leaves emerge a little before Amaryllis beladonna (naked ladies.) Isn't Lycoris squamigera pink-flowered, almost the same pink as Amaryllis beladonna? One can tell them apart at a glance. Amaryllis leaves are much wider than Lycoris radiata and a lighter green. Lycoris radiata leaves are very dark green. My Lycoris radiata didn't bloom well at all this year. Leo Martin Phoenix Arizona USA From meenglis@meenglis.cts.com Fri Dec 14 19:13:00 2007 Message-Id: <47631C07.5070508@meenglis.cts.com> From: Marguerite English Subject: Question about Naked Ladies Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2007 16:12:55 -0800 Nope. I do know the difference. I really was asking about the pink-flowered Lycoris squamigera. I also grow Lycoris radiata and enjoy it in my plant room and a trial bit outside. I hadn't noticed the name hurricane lilies before, thanks for sharing it. > Ummm... Maybe Marguerite meant Lycoris radiata, the red one (hurricane > lilies to some.) It grows easily and blooms readily in our warmer-wintered > Western climates. > and really I don't quite think of my climate as warmer wintered. At least not this week. > > My Lycoris radiata didn't bloom well at all this year. > Neither did those of mine outdoors. Squirrels ate the flowering stalks, so the Lycoris radiata now live in a cage. (G) Marguerite growing in: Zone 7, 3700 ft altitude, under the slope of mount Cuyamaca near the Laguna mtns. of California. From kjblack@pacbell.net Fri Dec 14 20:38:27 2007 Message-Id: <204426.41273.qm@web81113.mail.mud.yahoo.com> From: Ken Blackford Subject: Question about Naked Ladies Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2007 17:38:26 -0800 (PST) Ken here in Coastal San Diego ... perhaps a zone or two milder than Descanso, which is inland a bit and higher in elevation. I have not grown L.squamigera, but L.aurea and L.radiata have done OK for me, blooming more each year. My only problem is the encroaching trees no longer let quite enough sunlight through to them, so I am afraid I need to move the bulbs, which will likely set them back a year or two. Brunsvigia and A.belladonnas seem to do quite well here. "J.E. Shields" wrote: Hi Marguerite and all, Besides what Kelly mentioned, I might add that Lycoris squamigera usually needs some pretty cold weather in winter to be able to grow and survive. I'm not sure where Descanso is, but I'll bet you don't get much frost in winter! This being the case, you can probably safely assume that any "Naked Lady" you see in Southern California is Amaryllis belladonna, not Lycoris squamigera. Now, having said that, has anyone grown Lycoris squamigera successfully in Southern California? From meg570@comcast.net Fri Dec 14 21:19:37 2007 Message-Id: <7EF8C280-61E1-404B-8C95-2381318355AC@comcast.net> From: Mary Gerritsen Subject: Calochortus book from Timber Press Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2007 18:19:23 -0800 I noticed a bit of a back and forth on the new Calochortus book from Timber Press back in August, but I have not seen any further comments or discussion about our book. I feel like a bit of a voyeur, BUT As one of the authors, I obviously have a vested interest here, but both Ron and I would appreciate feedback on the book. Further information including the "Look Inside" feature has been added to the Amazon.com site, and for those of you interested in more photos of Calochortus, please see the web sites: http://www.flowershots.net/INDEX.html and http://picasaweb.google.com/navbo123 I hope that those of you interested in this genus find the information in the book useful. Sincerely, Mary Gerritsen San Mateo, CA From totototo@telus.net Sat Dec 15 00:06:50 2007 Message-Id: <20071215045525.A9G8EAV0B1@priv-edtnaa05.telusplanet.net> From: totototo@telus.net Subject: Rain Lilies Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2007 20:56:18 -0800 On 13 Dec 07, at 18:42, Robt R Pries wrote: > Dear rain lily enthusiasts; I am continuing on my > quest to produce a rain lily checklist. Just Zephyranthes, or both Z. and Habranthus? -- Rodger Whitlock Victoria, British Columbia, Canada Maritime Zone 8, a cool Mediterranean climate on beautiful Vancouver Island From antoine.hoog@free.fr Sat Dec 15 06:56:31 2007 Message-Id: <20071215115628.14DB217F53D@smtp8-g19.free.fr> From: "antoine hoog" Subject: Sun ! Crocusses ! Date: Sat, 15 Dec 2007 12:56:32 +0100 Dear PBS, The crocuses Jim mentions have now finished here. Still blooming is Crocus niveus, several clones from the Mani Peninsula of the Peloponnese. This continues to bloom after other clones of Crocus niveus, from near Kalamata and from Mali peninsula have finished. It is our latest blooming one in the open garden until the spring crocuses start. Antoine Hoog USDA Zone 7 Le Houx 22150 PLEMY France 3antoine.hoog@free.fr From rpries@sbcglobal.net Sat Dec 15 10:01:51 2007 Message-Id: <481477.8739.qm@web81911.mail.mud.yahoo.com> From: Robt R Pries Subject: Rain Lilies Date: Sat, 15 Dec 2007 07:01:41 -0800 (PST) I am collecting data on Zepyranthes, Habranthus, Rhodolphiala, and Sprekelia. The last two may not be considered rain lilies but have crossed with them and so are of interest. Their are other genera such as Pyrolyrion, Phycella and Traubia that have been moved in and out of the other genera and so I am looking at these also. I am trying to collect information in two ways, botanical and horticultural. The Botanical is the easier part, in that I can find much in the literature. The horticultural is actually more difficult and lead to this task in the first place. Many hybrids have been named but often very little appears in the literature about their provenance. For example. There are interesting crosses that have been placed on the Wikipedia but they do not give hybridizers names. dates of introduction or any quantitative measures such as flower size, height, etc. In our age of communications we seem to be loosing ground on providing any archival reference of what is happening in this area. I am aware of some hybridizers and have been in touch and have recieved great information but sadly I am sure I have only reached the tip of the iceberg. Without individuals coming forward, I will miss much of what is happening. This is unfortunate. I have already noted websites offering a cultivar that is white, saying that what they offer is pink. Without some idiot like me who is willing to bang their head against the wall to document these things we will remain without a reference that can verify the names of these plants in the future. --- totototo@telus.net wrote: > On 13 Dec 07, at 18:42, Robt R Pries wrote: > > > Dear rain lily enthusiasts; I am continuing on my > > quest to produce a rain lily checklist. > > Just Zephyranthes, or both Z. and Habranthus? > > > -- > Rodger Whitlock > Victoria, British Columbia, Canada > Maritime Zone 8, a cool Mediterranean climate > > on beautiful Vancouver Island > _______________________________________________ > pbs mailing list > pbs@lists.ibiblio.org > http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php > http://pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki > From pollards@adelphia.net Sat Dec 15 10:57:19 2007 Message-Id: <18466810.1197734239300.JavaMail.root@web18> From: Subject: Question about Naked Ladies Date: Sat, 15 Dec 2007 7:57:19 -0800 Dear all: I may have missed some of the discussion, but I have experience with all three plants. First, Lycoris radiata is very distinctive. Its leaves are thin and green with a white-stripe down the middle, almost like a Liriope. Its blood-red flower (hence "resurrection lily") is totally unlike Lycoris squamigera or Amaryllis belladonna. It's hardy at least as far north as northern Texas and Arkansas. The foliage surfaces in the fall and would take frost damage in Denton, TX, but the vigor of the plants was unaffected. It also grows and blooms well in warm-winter climates, as there are a number of old and spectacular clumps here in Yuma, AZ. (Shade is mandatory!) Lycoris squamigera looks like A. belladonna in flower, but the flat foliage surfaces in spring to avoid frosts and thus it is the "hardy amaryllis" or "magic lily" of cold-winter climates. The knock on L. squamigera is that it must have winter cold and cannot tolerate the intense summer humidity of the Gulf Coast. Nonetheless, a fellow plant freak I respect in Tucson insists that L. squamigera (and not A. belladonna) grew and bloomed for generations along some irrigation ditches or "acequias" in the Phoenix area. Perhaps the proximity to wet soil kept the bulbs cool? They had to have been in shade in any event. Amaryllis belladonna is the familiar plant of the West Coast. I doubt that this is the plant that people are growing in USDA Zone 7 or Sunset Zone 10. I grew in Alpine, TX and the foliage would almost make it through the winter, but would inevitably be turned to mush by that one prolonged dip down to the lower teens, even in a protected location. The plants' vigor and blooming were dramatically affected, even though the plants would continue to hang around. They're much more forgiving of intense summer heat, as there are established blooming clumps in Tucson and Yuma (with some morning sun). They must have some summer irrigation, as Tucson and Yuma are not Mediterranean climates. The bright green foliage, curved down the middle, is also distinctive from Lycoris. The flowers of A. belladonna are also fragrant; I don't recall if that is true of L. squamigera. Shawn Pollard Yuma, AZ From janemcgary@earthlink.net Sun Dec 16 17:10:08 2007 Message-Id: <5.2.1.1.0.20071215132759.01747d90@pop.earthlink.net> From: Jane McGary Subject: Sun ! Crocusses ! Date: Sat, 15 Dec 2007 13:31:34 -0800 Antoine Hoog wrote >The crocuses Jim mentions have now finished here. Still blooming is Crocus >niveus, several clones from the Mani Peninsula of the Peloponnese. This >continues to bloom after other clones of Crocus niveus, from near Kalamata >and from Mali peninsula have finished. It is our latest blooming one in the >open garden until the spring crocuses start. I enjoyed seeing C. niveus in the Mani Peninsula a year ago, especially since this region's population includes many blue forms of this more typically white species. The blue form is available in cultivation and seems to come fairly true from seed; I raised some from seed given me by a correspondent in the UK. Crocus niveus doesn't do well in the open garden for me but flourishes in the bulb frame, making very large corms. Some flowers are still in good condition now in mid-December. The only other species flowering are C. laevigatus and C. ochroleucus. The former barely survives in the open here, but the latter is a very sturdy, persistent plant. I think C. ochroleucus hangs on the the garden because it pulls down very deep, where perhaps the voles don't encounter it, even though it's quite a small crocus. Jane McGary Northwestern Oregon, USA From ang.por@alice.it Tue Dec 18 06:20:58 2007 Message-Id: <000801c84168$0b04fe60$9349034f@angelo1f9656d7> From: "Angelo Porcelli" Subject: Haemanthus hybrid Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2007 12:20:47 +0100 Hi All, last year I crossed a 'broadleaf' form of Haemanthus albiflos with H. coccineus pollen and got many seeds. They were rather small but germinated easily. Now at a check, most of them have odd reddish stripes under the leaves. I have compared with other pure H.albiflos seedlings and found none of them have marks, so I assume these striped ones are surely hybrids? Here a photo of them http://s5.photobucket.com/albums/y176/Lilioapulo/appoggio/?action=view¤t=DSCF0011.jpg Here the mother plant, which is rather curious in having unusually wide leaves, now 17cm wide and totaly curled down. Also it flowers in late September, two months before the other albiflos I grow. Another intriguing feature is that this year the plant selfed has produced no seeds. http://s5.photobucket.com/albums/y176/Lilioapulo/fiori/?action=view¤t=Hamenathus_albiflos_broadleaf.jpg best wishes Angelo Porcelli Apulia - south of Italy From jshields@indy.net Tue Dec 18 09:50:07 2007 Message-Id: <5.1.0.14.2.20071218091913.02727198@pop.indy.net> From: "J.E. Shields" Subject: Haemanthus hybrid Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2007 09:50:05 -0500 Hi Angelo and all, I bought a bulb labeled 'King Alfred' from someone in the UK years ago. It is supposed to be a cross between Haemanthus albiflos and H. coccineus. The leaves can get huge, one year reaching ca. 8 inches wide (20 cm) by 16 inches long (40 cm), if memory serves. It bloomed once, a small, pale bloom. Its leaves show no signs of red lines. It has produced several offsets, but none have yet reached a size sufficient for blooming. As I recall, 'King Alfred' is supposedly the name attached to crosses of Scadoxus puniceus X katherinae. I don't know if H. albiflos X coccineus has a name. Angelo, I think you are correct in assuming that the seedlings are hybrids since they have the red lines of coccineus on the abaxial surface (underside). Some years back I made the cross Haemanthus humilis hirsutus X coccineus. Those seedlings have red edges on the leaves, and some of them have the horizontal or transverse red lines on the abaxial surface near the base. The peduncles are coccineus-like, but taller, while the bracts are erect and burgundy to bronze in color. H. humilis hirsutus has no trace of red on its leaves. Best wishes, Jim Shields in cold, snowy central Indiana (USA) ************************************************* Jim Shields USDA Zone 5 Shields Gardens, Ltd. P.O. Box 92 WWW: http://www.shieldsgardens.com/ Westfield, Indiana 46074, USA Tel. ++1-317-867-3344 or toll-free 1-866-449-3344 in USA From J.Joschko@gmx.de Tue Dec 18 15:16:16 2007 Message-Id: From: "J. Joschko" Subject: Haemanthus hybrid Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2007 21:16:30 +0100 Hi all , Here are some informations about this hybrids : http://www.rhs.org.uk/publications/hanburyana/vol1/Hanburyana9-13.pdf I have also bought a plant from England as "King Albert" - but this is a wrong name - it is H. X clarkei . Scadoxus "König Albert" is the result from a german breeder - I have one plant of it . All the best Hans From J.Joschko@gmx.de Tue Dec 18 15:18:46 2007 Message-Id: From: "J. Joschko" Subject: Haemanthus hybrid Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2007 21:19:01 +0100 Here are some pics of my Haemanthus X clarkei : http://i203.photobucket.com/albums/aa49/creta96/Haem.Xclarkei.jpg http://i203.photobucket.com/albums/aa49/creta96/Haem.XclarkeiCU.jpg Johann Joschko Ahornstrasse 12 D - 77972 Mahlberg Deutschland Tel: 0049 (0)7825-7648 Fax:0049 (0)7825-869672 -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht----- Von: pbs-bounces@lists.ibiblio.org [mailto:pbs-bounces@lists.ibiblio.org]Im Auftrag von J. Joschko Gesendet: Dienstag, 18. Dezember 2007 21:17 An: PBS Betreff: [pbs] Haemanthus hybrid Hi all , Here are some informations about this hybrids : http://www.rhs.org.uk/publications/hanburyana/vol1/Hanburyana9-13.pdf I have also bought a plant from England as "King Albert" - but this is a wrong name - it is H. X clarkei . Scadoxus "König Albert" is the result from a german breeder - I have one plant of it . All the best Hans _______________________________________________ pbs mailing list pbs@lists.ibiblio.org http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php http://pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki From dells@voicenet.com Tue Dec 18 16:23:41 2007 Message-Id: <20071218212311.3454D4C055@lists.ibiblio.org> From: "Dell Sherk" Subject: Pacific BX 162 Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2007 16:22:46 -0500 Dear All, The items listed below have been donated by our members to be shared. If you are interested in obtaining some of them, please email me PRIVATELY at . Include "BX 162" in the subject line. Specify the NUMBERS of the items which you would like; do not specify quantities. It is a good idea to include your snail mail address, too, in case I don't already have it. Availability is based on a first come, first served system. When you receive your seeds/bulbs you will find, included with them, a statement of how much money (usually $2.00/item) (cash, check, or Pay Pal to ; no money orders, please) you should send the PBS treasurer to defray our costs for packing and first-class, priority-mail, or international postage. PLEASE NOTE: NEW POSTAL-RATE SCHEMES NECESSITATE OUR PLACING A SURCHARGE ON EACH ORDER FROM PBS BX OFFERINGS. Some of you are members of the online PBS discussion forum but are not members of the Pacific Bulb Society. THIS BX OFFERING IS AVAILABLE ONLY TO MEMBERS OF THE PBS. Consider joining the PBS so that you can take advantage of future offers such as this. Go to our website: .... If you would like to donate seeds or bulbs/corms to the PBS,(Donors will receive credit on the BX for the cost of postage for their donations.), please send CLEAN, clearly labeled material to: Dell Sherk 6832 Phillips Mill Rd. New Hope, PA, 18938 USA I WILL REPLY TO YOU WITHIN 24 HRS OF MY RECEIPT OF YOUR ORDER. IF YOU DO NOT HEAR FROM ME, TRY AGAIN !! From Alberto Grossi: SEED: 1. Pancratium maritimum 2. Belamcanda chinensis 3. Pods of Bletilla striata 4. Iris graminea 5. Colchicum autumnale From Mary Sue Ittner: SEED (all open pollinated) : 6. Allium membranaceum -- California native with pretty light pink flowers 7. Calochortus splendens -- violet-pink without a lot of markings, from Central part of California 8. Delphinium nudicaule -- California native, red flowers, but this was open pollinated and could be a hybrid so can't promise the color. Easy to grow in a pot, allowing a summer dormancy, but does reseed a bit into other pots 9. Geissorhiza brehmii -- white flowers, grows in wet spots 10. Geissorhiza imbricata -- white flowers, late blooming 11. Geissorhiza ornithogaloides -- small yellow flowers, early blooming 12. Gladiolus carmineus -- fall blooming, low growing, pink flowers, blooms before the leaves. Has naturalized in my Northern California coastal garden. Grows in South Africa in view of the ocean 13. Gladiolus grandiflorus -- spring blooming, very pretty white flowers with pink stripe 14. Gladiolus martleyi -- fall blooming before the leaves, small pink flowers with interesting markings 15. Gladiolus miniatus -- late spring blooming, apricot flowers, very pretty, not many seeds 16. Lachenalia nervosa -- white flowers with exserted stamens and pustulate leaves 17. Romulia citrina -- South African species, yellow flowers 18. Romulea hallii -- early blooming (Nov-Feb northern hemisphere) South African species, lovely markings 19. Romulea monticola -- yellow flowers, South African species 20. Triteleia dudleyi -- California native, few seeds, this is a higher elevation species usually blooming in the wild in summer, but it grows well for me in coastal California where it blooms earlier, small yellow flowers 21. Bulbs of Tulipa turkestanica From Dennis Szeszko: SEED (some QUITE RARE!): 22. Milla magnifica: The largest and rarest species of this genus. Wild-collected in Mexico State near the border with Guerrero. Grows in tropical deciduous jungle with a very pronounced dry period. 23. Tigridia sp. A tall-growing species collected at around 6000 feet in Mexico State. It could be Tigrida meleagris, but the flowers were not seen. 24. Tigridia mexicana - Seed harvested from wild-collected plants found in Mexico State. The flowers were photographed and can be seen on the wiki. 25. Tigridia sp. A short-growing species collected near Bejucos in Mexico State. Found growing in the shade of Crescentia alata trees in a very hot environment with an extremely pronounced dry period. Grows in clay soils that flood during the rainy season but bake in the dry season. 26. Tigridia aff. mortonii - I am not sure of the ID of this plant, but I think that it could be this species based on where it was found. Found at the type locality for the species in Mexico State growing directly on rock faces. Culture is similar to Worsleya, but with more shade. If this plant is what I think that it is, it will be the first time it has been collected since 1935. Flowers were described as RED by the original collector....this is the only member of Tigridia with red flowers. I will confirm the identity next summer when it flowers. 27. Rhodochiton sp. I think that this is a species of Rhodochiton (not R. atrosanguineus), but I am not 100% sure of the identity. It has a root structure similar to Dahlia and grows as a lithophyte on wet cliffs in Mexico state where it was collected. Flowers are large, reddish-purple, showy and pendulous. 28. Irid - A species of pleated-leaf irid that does not grow more than 12 inches with pointed seed capsules. Found in Mexico State growing near the city of Tejupilco at around 4000 feet in tropical deciduous jungle. 29. Penstemon sp. OK. So it's not a geophyte, but it has beautiful flowers that are an amazing bright coral-pink color with a fuzzy, yellow beard at the base of the lip. It was collected in Texcoco district in Mexico State and will grow well with other summer-growing bulbs in cool climates. Grows with Tigridia vanhouttei and Calochortus barbatus. Thank you, Alberto, Mary Sue, and Dennis !! Happy holidays! Dell Dell Sherk, Director, PBS BX From voltaire@ISLANDNET.COM Tue Dec 18 19:36:46 2007 Message-Id: From: Diane Whitehead Subject: Zantedeschia odorata seeds? Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2007 16:36:29 -0800 Zantedeschia odorata is deciduous and scented of freesias. It flowers on the Bokkeveld Plateau near Nieuwoudtville, South Africa, in September and October. Z. aethiopica, which is evergreen, thrives here, so I would like to try the scented one. I was in Nieuwoudtville at the right time, but didn't see, or smell, it. I haven't ever seen the seeds offered for sale. Does anyone grow it, or know of a source of seeds? Diane Whitehead Canada From Pelarg@aol.com Tue Dec 18 20:53:01 2007 Message-Id: From: Pelarg@aol.com Subject: Zantedeschia odorata seeds? Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2007 20:52:59 EST Hi Diane, I have some plants of Z. odorata growing by a large window in my school where I teach. It has not flowered yet, but might this year. Z. odorata is smaller than its larger, more common, cousin, and seems more of an obligate winter grower. It will indeed go dormant in summer, no matter what. Its possible some are still in the collections at the New York Botanical Garden from my days when I worked there, but I do not know if those plants are still alive. I believe it bloomed once while I was there, but I remember not being exactly overwhelmed with the scent. I got my original seeds from Silverhill Seeds, you might check with them to see if they have some in stock. Ernie DeMarie New York **************************************See AOL's top rated recipes (http://food.aol.com/top-rated-recipes?NCID=aoltop00030000000004) From adam14113@ameritech.net Tue Dec 18 21:55:22 2007 Message-Id: <006801c841e9$f974dcb0$5ad8fea9@FAMILY> From: "Adam Fikso" Subject: DIfference between lycoris and amaryllis belladonna. Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2007 20:50:53 -0600 Hello. All of what's been said here is true, but I'd like to point out that the flowers are quite different, even though they are similar. A. belladonna is often shown as what you're going to get in a garden catalog listing L. squamigera. and vs. vsa. Flowers of A. belladonna are radially symmetrical. Flowers of L. squamigera are less so and have their petals arranged so that the bottom outline of the flower appears to be flat across; the six petals are arranged so that they are almost like a pentagonal 5-petalled flower, with a base wider between the two bottom petals than between any of the otherss. Not so, for the A. belladonna. Flower substance is greater and thicker in A. belladonna than in L. squamigera which is thinner and sometimes with a lavender tint. Bulb sizes can get quite large in both--up to about 5" in diameter. Cheers, from Glenview IL USDA where there's about 5" of snow on the groune scheduled to melt tomorrow. . From j.grimshaw@virgin.net Wed Dec 19 01:08:30 2007 Message-Id: <005101c84205$92acb180$0201a8c0@John> From: "John Grimshaw" Subject: Zantedeschia odorata seeds? Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2007 06:08:26 -0000 I saw Zantedeschia odorata flowering on Glenlyon Farm at Nieuwoudtville in late August 2004, but don't recall the fragrance - so perhaps it isn't very evident. What was interesting was that it grew only tightly wedged between dolerite rocks: Neil McGregor, the owner, informed us that this was because otherwise the porcupines would eat the tubers. I've had a plant for years (grown from Silverhill seed) but it hasn't flowered. It is very definitely a winter-grower. John Grimshaw Dr John M. Grimshaw Sycamore Cottage Colesbourne Nr Cheltenham Gloucestershire GL53 9NP Tel. 01242 870567 COLESBOURNE PARK SNOWDROP OPEN DAYS 2008 January 26/27 and every Saturday & Sunday in February Gates open 1pm, last entry 4 pm website: www.colesbournegardens.org.uk ----- Original Message ----- From: "Diane Whitehead" To > Zantedeschia odorata is deciduous and scented of freesias. It flowers > on the Bokkeveld Plateau near Nieuwoudtville, South Africa, in > September and October. > From totototo@telus.net Thu Dec 20 13:03:09 2007 Message-Id: <20071220180307.A326RUNT9X@priv-edtnaa06.telusplanet.net> From: totototo@telus.net Subject: Question about Naked Ladies Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2007 10:03:48 -0800 On 14 Dec 07, at 16:12, Marguerite English wrote: > ...I hadn't noticed the name hurricane lilies before, thanks for > sharing it. I'm going to be one of those plant name snots and disagree. All the plants we grow have perfectly good names assigned by our friends the botanists, and these are (for the most part) unambiguous and universally understood. I honestly think that participants in a mailing list like this one should make every effort to learn and use those names. Consider "hurricane lilies". What on earth are *those*? Will someone like myself in Canada know what is referred to? Or someone in southern France or Russia or India or South Africa or Australia? Probably not. Moreover, many such English-language names are not, in fact, true common names. They are made up, usually by crude translations from the Latinate botanical names. That horrible old book "Standardized Plant Names" is perhaps the pinnacle of this tendency, but more recently I noticed, as I searched for information on a certain plant (forget which, sorry) that every online nursery that listed it used a different, made-up-on-the-spot English-language name. The resultant is worse than useless -- someone unfamiliar with the ins and outs of plant names may falsely think that googling one of those made-up names will cough up other suppliers. Finally, I appeal to the Court of Bluebells, that name having very diverse meanings depending on who and where you are. No, wait, I'm not finished my rant: one more thing: using Latinate botanical names does not mean you have to learn Latin. Even the botanists who write up plant descriptions in Latin need only learn a little of the language, the whole complex mechanism of tense, mood, and voice of verbs being disused in botanical Latin -- unless, of course, a botanist deliberately wishes to obfuscate things. No, I'm still not finished. I have no mercy on this subject. Keep reading! The cry goes up, to buttress the accusation of elitism, that "Latin names are too hard." Piffle, sheer piffle, nothing but mental laziness. No one thinks twice about saying fuchsia, petunia, rhododendron, chrysanthemum, trillium, podophyllum, crocus, narcissus, zephyranthes, habranthus, tecophilaea, or urginea. Those are all Latinate names. What then is wrong with the rest? And if anyone pleads "oh, it's just too tough for me" let me ask, can you learn the names of new friends? John Smith, Wilma Bonneville, Veriolitsia Glomulaitis, etc? Sure you can. Your plants are your friends, too, so be nice to them and learn *their* names. Just remember the rule that their names, like those of the Hungarians, have family name first, then personal name. (Actually, for plants, the genus name, not the family name, first; same diff.) Okay, you can relax now. I'm really done. There will, however, be a pop quiz in the very near future, so be ready for it. Merry Christmas everyone, and if anyone wonders what real figgy pudding is all about, I'll be able to tell you in 8 days. -- Rodger Whitlock Victoria, British Columbia, Canada Maritime Zone 8, a cool Mediterranean climate on beautiful Vancouver Island From voltaire@islandnet.com Thu Dec 20 14:13:14 2007 Message-Id: From: Diane Whitehead Subject: Question about Naked Ladies Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2007 11:12:57 -0800 No one thinks twice about saying fuchsia, petunia, rhododendron, chrysanthemum, trillium, ========================================== Cheers, Rodger! However, some people must make up "common names" for trilliums, a name I learned as a toddler, with the explanation that its name meant it had three petals and three leaves, just like my tricycle had three wheels. I have never heard anyone refer to it as anything other than "trillium", yet recently, on labels in public gardens, I see abominations like "wood lily". I think volunteer label makers have the idea that all plants must have a "common" name, and get their information from some unknown source. Diane Whitehead From jshields@indy.net Thu Dec 20 15:06:54 2007 Message-Id: <5.1.0.14.2.20071220145657.0272bdc0@pop.indy.net> From: "J.E. Shields" Subject: Question about Naked Ladies Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2007 15:01:53 -0500 Hi all, Rodger and Diana, I agree completely. "Common" names are an abomination, implicitly presuming that everyone is an idiot. The Naked Lady label is one of the worst, but I had not thought about the ambiguity of Bluebell until Rodger brought it up. Can anyone think of any worse examples of the ambiguity of common names (just in English, please!) Jim Shields in sunny central Indiana (USA) where English hasn't been heard in years (least of all coming out of my mouth!) At 11:12 AM 12/20/2007 -0800, you wrote: > No one thinks twice about saying fuchsia, petunia, >rhododendron, chrysanthemum, trillium, >========================================== >Cheers, Rodger! > >However, some people must make up "common names" for trilliums, a name >I learned as a toddler, with the explanation that its name meant it >had three petals and three leaves, just like my tricycle had three >wheels. I have never heard anyone refer to it as anything other than >"trillium", yet recently, on labels in public gardens, I see >abominations like "wood lily". I think volunteer label makers have >the idea that all plants must have a "common" name, and get their >information from some unknown source. > > >Diane Whitehead ************************************************* Jim Shields USDA Zone 5 Shields Gardens, Ltd. P.O. Box 92 WWW: http://www.shieldsgardens.com/ Westfield, Indiana 46074, USA Tel. ++1-317-867-3344 or toll-free 1-866-449-3344 in USA From tiede@pacbell.net Thu Dec 20 15:11:00 2007 Message-Id: <02f901c84344$4bd3ada0$026fa8c0@EDEN> From: "Bracey Tiede" Subject: Question about Naked Ladies Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2007 12:09:57 -0800 Mock orange is my nomination. Binomials rule! I really like the analogy of learning your friends' names. Cheers, Bracey Tiede San Jose CA (just got a 1/4" more rain - slowly in dribs and drabs) -----Original Message----- From: pbs-bounces@lists.ibiblio.org [mailto:pbs-bounces@lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf Of J.E. Shields Sent: Thursday, December 20, 2007 12:02 PM To: Pacific Bulb Society Subject: Re: [pbs] Question about Naked Ladies Hi all, Rodger and Diana, I agree completely. "Common" names are an abomination, implicitly presuming that everyone is an idiot. The Naked Lady label is one of the worst, but I had not thought about the ambiguity of Bluebell until Rodger brought it up. Can anyone think of any worse examples of the ambiguity of common names (just in English, please!) Jim Shields in sunny central Indiana (USA) where English hasn't been heard in years (least of all coming out of my mouth!) At 11:12 AM 12/20/2007 -0800, you wrote: > No one thinks twice about saying fuchsia, petunia, >rhododendron, chrysanthemum, trillium, >========================================== >Cheers, Rodger! > >However, some people must make up "common names" for trilliums, a name >I learned as a toddler, with the explanation that its name meant it >had three petals and three leaves, just like my tricycle had three >wheels. I have never heard anyone refer to it as anything other than >"trillium", yet recently, on labels in public gardens, I see >abominations like "wood lily". I think volunteer label makers have >the idea that all plants must have a "common" name, and get their >information from some unknown source. > > >Diane Whitehead ************************************************* Jim Shields USDA Zone 5 Shields Gardens, Ltd. P.O. Box 92 WWW: http://www.shieldsgardens.com/ Westfield, Indiana 46074, USA Tel. ++1-317-867-3344 or toll-free 1-866-449-3344 in USA _______________________________________________ pbs mailing list pbs@lists.ibiblio.org http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php http://pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki From jshields@indy.net Thu Dec 20 15:41:40 2007 Message-Id: <5.1.0.14.2.20071220152531.035bc5f8@pop.indy.net> From: "J.E. Shields" Subject: Question about Naked Ladies Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2007 15:30:39 -0500 Thanks you, Bracey. I just looked out my window into my greenhouse, and there was another fine example of a common name: a "Calla Lily" is in bloom. That is, a Zantedeschia hybrid, looking mostly like Z. aethiopica, is in bloom at this odd time of year. It is neither a Calla nor a Lily. Calla is a genus including the rare Calla palustris, an endangered species from Tamarack bogs in Northern Indiana. Zantedeschia, like C. palustris, is in the Arum Family, but Zantedeschia is native to Southern Africa. Jim Shields At 12:09 PM 12/20/2007 -0800, you wrote: >Mock orange is my nomination. > >Binomials rule! I really like the analogy of learning your friends' names. > >Cheers, >Bracey Tiede ************************************************* Jim Shields USDA Zone 5 Shields Gardens, Ltd. P.O. Box 92 WWW: http://www.shieldsgardens.com/ Westfield, Indiana 46074, USA Tel. ++1-317-867-3344 or toll-free 1-866-449-3344 in USA From tiede@pacbell.net Thu Dec 20 15:52:15 2007 Message-Id: <030701c84349$c264d200$026fa8c0@EDEN> From: "Bracey Tiede" Subject: Question about Naked Ladies Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2007 12:49:04 -0800 Funny you mention Calla. Bob Raabe, UC Berkeley plant pathology whiz, lectures the UCCE Master Gardeners on plant diseases. He always points out the fallacy of the 'calla lily' name. Many of our MGs are Latin-phobic too. Cheers, Bracey -----Original Message----- From: pbs-bounces@lists.ibiblio.org [mailto:pbs-bounces@lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf Of J.E. Shields Sent: Thursday, December 20, 2007 12:31 PM To: Pacific Bulb Society Subject: Re: [pbs] Question about Naked Ladies Thanks you, Bracey. I just looked out my window into my greenhouse, and there was another fine example of a common name: a "Calla Lily" is in bloom. That is, a Zantedeschia hybrid, looking mostly like Z. aethiopica, is in bloom at this odd time of year. It is neither a Calla nor a Lily. Calla is a genus including the rare Calla palustris, an endangered species from Tamarack bogs in Northern Indiana. Zantedeschia, like C. palustris, is in the Arum Family, but Zantedeschia is native to Southern Africa. Jim Shields At 12:09 PM 12/20/2007 -0800, you wrote: >Mock orange is my nomination. > >Binomials rule! I really like the analogy of learning your friends' names. > >Cheers, >Bracey Tiede ************************************************* Jim Shields USDA Zone 5 Shields Gardens, Ltd. P.O. Box 92 WWW: http://www.shieldsgardens.com/ Westfield, Indiana 46074, USA Tel. ++1-317-867-3344 or toll-free 1-866-449-3344 in USA _______________________________________________ pbs mailing list pbs@lists.ibiblio.org http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php http://pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki From lmf@beautifulblooms.ab.ca Thu Dec 20 15:57:56 2007 Message-Id: From: "Linda Foulis" Subject: Using proper names, was Question about Naked Ladies Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2007 13:57:20 -0700 I personally make every effort to learn the names of all of my plants, the correct names. However, in my neck of the woods, if you say hippeastrum you get that look, until you correct yourself and say amaryllis. Common names are very common here! Linda in Okotoks, AB Canada No snow for Christmas, sigh. From rdjenkins@bellsouth.net Thu Dec 20 16:20:58 2007 Message-Id: <003301c8434e$36448770$6101a8c0@JenkinsMachine> From: "rdjenkins" Subject: Question about Naked Ladies Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2007 16:20:51 -0500 ----- Original Message ----- From: "J.E. Shields" To: "Pacific Bulb Society" Sent: Thursday, December 20, 2007 3:01 PM Subject: Re: [pbs] Question about Naked Ladies > Can anyone think of any worse examples of the ambiguity of common names > (just in English, please!) Any common name that has "false" included in it, like false brome, false obedient plant, etc ad nauseum. From alanidae@gmail.com Thu Dec 20 17:25:54 2007 Message-Id: From: "Alani Davis" Subject: Question about Naked Ladies Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2007 17:25:52 -0500 There are so many name issues relating to common names which is one of the of the problems with common names. There are so many common names and often there are the commonest of them but then there are other names common in a region but not elsewhere. Several places in the southern U.S. I have heard Zephyranthes atamasco call Easter lilies by "locals". I don't suppose the confusion there has to be explained. I have heard spider lily used for Crinum americanum, Crinum asiaticum, and Lycoris radiata as well as Hymenocallis. There are several obedient plants and milkweed includes more than Asclepias. There is a plant commonly grown around this area called the Philippine violet which is a member of the Acanthaceae called *Barleria cristata. *It is purple but obviously not a violet and it originates from India and Burma and just for kicks is also called bluebells. Then mock orange was brought up; was *Philadelphus *intended or* Pittosporum *meant since both shrubs are called by that name. *Philadelphus *is also called English dogwood too which it is neither assuming we all agree with what is called a dogwood. Being a name nut and really good at digression, I could drag this on, but instead- I would bring up a frustration relating to the original topic. That would be the name "South African hybrid Amaryllis" referring Hippeastrum hybrids presumably developed in Africa and I assumed named such to separate them from Dutch hybrids. I could not count the number of people who have expressed that they thought these would not grow in the southeastern U.S. because they had heard that about the South African * Amaryllis. *Alani Davis Tallahassee, Florida Where Crinum are still in flower From msittner@mcn.org Thu Dec 20 17:33:25 2007 Message-Id: <5.2.0.9.2.20071220142555.029908a0@mail.mcn.org> From: Mary Sue Ittner Subject: Ambiquous Common name nomination Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2007 14:33:07 -0800 My nomination is Bermuda Buttercup, the name used for Oxalis pes-caprae which is native to South Africa, not Bermuda. It is yellow it is true, but buttercup is a common name often used in connection with some Ranunculus species which further illustrates one of the problems of using common names as more than one genus can go under the same name. Mary Sue From arnold@nj.rr.com Thu Dec 20 17:51:46 2007 Message-Id: <476AF1B8.2010605@nj.rr.com> From: Arnold Trachtenberg Subject: Ambiquous Common name nomination Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2007 17:50:32 -0500 Well, it's not only the "unscientific" among us who use common names that are either misnamed or down right incorrect how about Scilla Peruviana. Arnold From arnold@nj.rr.com Thu Dec 20 18:10:26 2007 Message-Id: <476AF61C.4090401@nj.rr.com> From: Arnold Trachtenberg Subject: Scilla peruviana Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2007 18:09:16 -0500 Well at first look you would think it's from the County of Peru, but actually I think the story goes that it was being transported on a ship called the "Peru" and wound up washed ashore somewhere. Arnold From jimmckenney@jimmckenney.com Thu Dec 20 18:08:33 2007 Message-Id: <000901c8435d$78589570$2f01a8c0@Library> From: "Jim McKenney" Subject: Scilla peruviana Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2007 18:10:09 -0500 The name Scilla peruviana was cited in the context of "incorrect" names. I suppose it depends on what you think the name means. The story is that Clusius named it peruviana because he got his plants (I've read that he made the trip to Bristol to do so) and was told that they had come in a ship named the Peru. See Patrick Synge's Collins Guide to Bulbs. Jim McKenney jimmckenney@jimmckenney.com Montgomery County, Maryland, USA, USDA zone 7 where Crocus longiflorus in the cold frame and Iris unquicularis in the open are still blooming. My Virtual Maryland Garden http://www.jimmckenney.com BLOG! http://mcwort.blogspot.com/ Webmaster Potomac Valley Chapter, NARGS Editor PVC Bulletin http://www.pvcnargs.org Webmaster Potomac Lily Society http://www.potomaclilysociety.org From meenglis@meenglis.cts.com Thu Dec 20 18:20:14 2007 Message-Id: <476AF8AB.9060809@meenglis.cts.com> From: Marguerite English Subject: Question about Naked Ladies Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2007 15:20:11 -0800 Wow! That was a great rant! Happens I agree with most of it. However.... I like to collect the common names for plants I like. It adds to my interest in them to speculate how they gather them. Also, this forum is a place to use scientific names and everyone who comes here probably knows how to use them. Not every place I go is that. My gardening club is made up of other LOL's who could care less as long as the plant grows where we live. They would stop inviting me to the garden club parties if I only chatted in Latin nomenclature. So don't look at the web page I just issued for them, 'cause all the Latin names are on the back page. But if you'd like to know a little about my town, do check it out. I still have a list of plants to add to the plant list, but I put the choices for which I have photos out there first. It isn't about geophytes, but about garden plants that are grown or recommended by club members. Marguerite, about half finished with descansogardenclub.org totototo@telus.net wrote: > On 14 Dec 07, at 16:12, Marguerite English wrote: > > >> ...I hadn't noticed the name hurricane lilies before, thanks for >> sharing it. >> > > I'm going to be one of those plant name snots and disagree. All the > plants we grow have perfectly good names assigned by our friends From jimmckenney@jimmckenney.com Thu Dec 20 18:24:55 2007 Message-Id: <000e01c8435f$c28c7c40$2f01a8c0@Library> From: "Jim McKenney" Subject: Using proper names, was Question about Naked Ladies Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2007 18:26:32 -0500 I have no problem with common names, although about the only times I use them are when using the botanical names would lead to even more confusion or when I'm working myself up into a poetic froth. After all, botanical names are subject to the same kind of imprecision that common names are. The example being used, Calla, provides one sort of example. Calla was at one time the legitimate botanical name of what we now call Zantedeschia. In a concurrent posting on the Yahoo Lilium list, Diane Whitehead recently listed the botanical names of the lilies grown by Gilbert White, the eighteenth century diarist. Since I read White often, I was puzzled by the list she gave: none of it sounded very familiar. So I went back to White to see what I could find. After hitting on one or two references to lilies, I realized what the problem was. I didn't recognize the list Diane provided because White used only vernacular names for his lilies. Of White's vernacular names, only one persists into modern usage with any frequency: martagon. His name "orange lily" no doubt persists in those communities where this species (Lilium bulbiferum) is still grown, although it is not a common garden species in most areas. White's "white lilies" are of course Lilium candidum - but who since Gertrude Jekyll ( whose use was no doubt motivated by her concern of the old ways disappearing around her - unless it was a lingering anti-Catholicism) has called Madonna lilies "white lilies" without qualification? There's another aspect to this fetish for "correctness". Do botanists own the language? I don't think so. Do horticulturists? Hardly! Lily is an ancient concept, and calla has been in use for hundreds of years. Who's to say which of the many meanings of lilium in use over the millennia is the "one and only" correct one? I sometimes think that those who don't want to be bothered with formal botanical nomenclature must feel that they are the victims of a bait and switch scam: things start out sociably enough in the conversation about plants, but suddenly one participant unilaterally, without warning or the consent of the other participants switches to "correct" names. Isn't this a form of aggression? Of rudeness? Of self-aggrandizement? Of condescension? I have a simple way of dealing with these people: I pipe up using "correct pronunciations". Most gardeners, horticulturists and botanists have vestigial guilt and uncertainty about this; it's a touchy part easily bruised. And even if we all agree that there is one and only one meaning for a word, what's to prevent us from using the word metaphorically? I don't know a botanist or horticulturist who isn't sometimes behind the times in the sense of occasionally using a junior synonym. And I say that because many plants have multiple botanical names. At any one time there is generally a preferred one favored by the reigning expert; but anyone with the long view, anyone who has observed the history of botanical names over a long period of time, knows that there is no predicting which name will prevail, which name botanists of the future will use. Some people are no better than politicians churning the rumor mill during an election year. Get them together for a meeting and sooner or later someone will pipe up about the latest and greatest they read about that morning in a technical paper: as if publishing something makes it correct! I relish the varied nuances which are expressed in the best common names. Names like naked ladies and naked boys are hilarious. Pick up Gerard or Parkinson (much sanitized by comparison) for a multitude of tasty, uncouth, naughty, scandalous common names. Gerard in particular knew how to do tangy. Who knew about abstertion? Our gardening and humanism are much reduced by the absence of many of these from contemporary speech. I'm forever grateful to Tony Avent for his "domestic violence Salvia" and his many other felicitous witticisms. We need more of this, not less. I find efforts to make vernacular names a mirror image of botanical nomenclature wrong headed. I like words like "thistle" which don't correlate precisely with any botanical taxon. And if you can't be witty, at least be useful and make up a common name which is an accurate and artful translation of the Latin, Greek or whatever. I've noticed that German sometimes does this, and once you get a bit of vocabulary in those languages under your belt, it makes for an easy way to continually expand and build your German, Latin and Greek comprehension in one effort. Jim McKenney jimmckenney@jimmckenney.com Montgomery County, Maryland, USA, USDA zone 7 My Virtual Maryland Garden http://www.jimmckenney.com BLOG! http://mcwort.blogspot.com/ Webmaster Potomac Valley Chapter, NARGS Editor PVC Bulletin http://www.pvcnargs.org Webmaster Potomac Lily Society http://www.potomaclilysociety.org From leo@possi.org Thu Dec 20 18:47:39 2007 Message-Id: <46782.209.180.132.162.1198194405.squirrel@www.possi.org> From: "Leo A. Martin" Subject: Question about Naked Ladies Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2007 16:46:45 -0700 (MST) Please, I'm highly offended by people calling things Calla Lilies. If they're hybrids, please try to be precise and include the DNA sequence of at least 15 introns so I can tell what you're talking about. Leo Martin Phoenix Arizona USA From leo@possi.org Thu Dec 20 18:52:39 2007 Message-Id: <46920.209.180.132.162.1198194704.squirrel@www.possi.org> From: "Leo A. Martin" Subject: Hurricane Lilies Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2007 16:51:44 -0700 (MST) Yes, common names can be confusing. But to anybody living in the hurricane belt of the USA, there could be no confusion about the name hurricane lily. Lycoris radiata flowers just at the time of hurricanes. And many common names are really chosen quite well. We plant enthusiasts recognize the need for Latin names, but the vast majority of the gardening public detests Latin names and will not buy a plant so labeled. That is despite years of enlightened plant masters hectoring them on their brutish plebeian ways. Might as well recognize the situation and make the best of it while trying to keep Linnaeus happy. Leo Martin From jimmckenney@jimmckenney.com Thu Dec 20 19:07:01 2007 Message-Id: <000f01c84365$a365e120$2f01a8c0@Library> From: "Jim McKenney" Subject: Question about Naked Ladies Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2007 19:08:37 -0500 Alani Davis wrote: "There are so many name issues relating to common names which is one of the of the problems with common names" and then went on to give lots of good examples. However, I would like to play devil's advocate in this discussion. Those of us fluent in botanical names may be misleading ourselves and others. The correct application of botanical names in my experience is sometimes a much more difficult undertaking than we give it credit for. Here's an example I've been wrestling with for the last week or so. It ties in to some recent discussions we've had on the topics of speciation, evolution, cladistics and related topics. About a week ago I had one of those serendipitous experiences in which several seemingly unrelated threads of cognition came together into a seeming revelation. I had been going through some old lily books to check something or other out and, in passing, I noticed an old photograph and suddenly had an inspiration. The photograph, in George Slates Lilies for American Gardens (Scribner's, 1939) was captioned Lilium grayi. I'm convinced that the plant portrayed in not Lilium grayi but rather one of the lilies which occur in the northern range of Lilium grayi where it and Lilium canadense exist in what is in effect a species-like relationship. Such lilies are routinely called hybrids and given the name Lilium pseudo-grayi. As I've said before, I'm of the school which says if they are interbreeding and producing viable progeny which themselves are capable of interbreeding and producing viable progeny, then they are not hybrids; the reality is that the parental populations are members of the same species. The photograph in Slate also suggests something else. In the Flora of West Virginia there is a line drawing of Lilium canadense editorum. The line drawing is so odd that for a long time I assumed that it had been drawn from a bad herbarium specimen. But that line drawing matches fairly well one of the images (a sort of photographic collage) provided by Fernald, the author of editorum. At this point in my understanding, I am just about convinced that Lilium pseudo-grayi and Lilium canadense editorum are based on either the same population or on related populations which show varying degrees of introgression with Lilium grayi. In this view, Lilium grayi and Lilium canadense emerge as a single species, the apparent morphological differences notwithstanding: they form a population which not only interbreeds but interbreeds and produces viable progeny. These two species have long been recognized as being closely related. Presumably in the distant past they were one species; over time, their populations separated enough for the apparent differences to become stabilized. Now those formerly separated populations are in contact and are interbreeding: these "species" are merging before our eyes. And what's the point of all this? I for one would not want to be too dogmatic about the identity of any of the Lilium grayi material I've seen. In particular, I would be very reluctant to draw a sharp line of separation between what traditionally have been known as Lilium grayi (such as the ones in my images on the wiki) and the evidently numerous plants found in southeastern Virginia which clearly show the influence of both Lilium grayi and L. canadense. There is a long history (going back to the early twentieth century) of this material coming into commerce under the name Lilium grayi. In cases like this, where the conventional nomenclature does not reflect the reality on the ground, the use of botanical names easily becomes misleading. In a case like this one, botanical names are not adequate to express what is really happening. There are plants in the trade being sold as Lilium grayi. But how would one know? The best that can be said is that some authorities will say yes and some will say no. To those who have to have botanical accuracy, this is torture. To those happy and content to have a red thimble lily, it's irrelevant. Jim McKenney jimmckenney@jimmckenney.com Montgomery County, Maryland, USA, USDA zone 7 where Crocus ochroleucus is still in bloom and where there has been no sigh yet of C. laevigatus. My Virtual Maryland Garden http://www.jimmckenney.com BLOG! http://mcwort.blogspot.com/ Webmaster Potomac Valley Chapter, NARGS Editor PVC Bulletin http://www.pvcnargs.org Webmaster Potomac Lily Society http://www.potomaclilysociety.org From alanidae@gmail.com Thu Dec 20 19:13:00 2007 Message-Id: From: "Alani Davis" Subject: Question about Naked Ladies Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2007 19:12:58 -0500 Well this is true and common names add as much fun as frustration. Exactly what does a small seemingly innocuous plant do or cause to earn the name Devils Stepmother! On Dec 20, 2007 6:20 PM, Marguerite English < meenglis@meenglis.cts.com> wrote: > Wow! That was a great rant! Happens I agree with most of it. > However.... I like to collect the common names for plants I like. It > adds to my interest in them to speculate how they gather them. > Also, this forum is a place to use scientific names and everyone who > comes here probably knows how to use them. Not every place I go is > that. My gardening club is made up of other LOL's who could care less > as long as the plant grows where we live. They would stop inviting me > to the garden club parties if I only chatted in Latin nomenclature. > So don't look at the web page I just issued for them, 'cause all the > Latin names are on the back page. But if you'd like to know a little > about my town, do check it out. I still have a list of plants to add > to the plant list, but I put the choices for which I have photos out > there first. It isn't about geophytes, but about garden plants that > are grown or recommended by club members. Marguerite, about half > finished with descansogardenclub.org > > totototo@telus.net wrote: > > On 14 Dec 07, at 16:12, Marguerite English wrote: > > > > > >> ...I hadn't noticed the name hurricane lilies before, thanks for > >> sharing it. > >> > > > > I'm going to be one of those plant name snots and disagree. All the > > plants we grow have perfectly good names assigned by our friends > > _______________________________________________ > pbs mailing list > pbs@lists.ibiblio.org > http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php > http://pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki > From othonna@gmail.com Thu Dec 20 21:55:26 2007 Message-Id: <8e8da5260712201855h20cb9149md4a150bca85fcd99@mail.gmail.com> From: Hannon Subject: Ambiquous Common name nomination Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2007 18:55:24 -0800 As some wise person observed once: All common names are correct! (By virtue of the absence of any agreed upon authority...) On Dec 20, 2007 2:33 PM, Mary Sue Ittner wrote: > My nomination is Bermuda Buttercup, the name used for Oxalis pes-caprae > which is native to South Africa, not Bermuda. It is yellow it is true, but > buttercup is a common name often used in connection with some Ranunculus > species which further illustrates one of the problems of using common > names > as more than one genus can go under the same name. > > Mary Sue > > _______________________________________________ > pbs mailing list > pbs@lists.ibiblio.org > http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php > http://pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki > From idavide@sbcglobal.net Thu Dec 20 22:04:49 2007 Message-Id: <723954.89066.qm@web81005.mail.mud.yahoo.com> From: David Ehrlich Subject: Question about Naked Ladies Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2007 19:04:48 -0800 (PST) There is a botanical word I’m looking for – it’s something like gradient, but I don’t think that’s the word. It is used when referring to a species with a broad distribution which has one form at one end of its distribution and a very different form at the other end. The two extreme forms are sometimes considered separate species. But when the distribution is continuous and every intermediate form is found and there is no bar to interbreeding, this special word is used, and the population is considered a single species with disparate extreme forms From idavide@sbcglobal.net Thu Dec 20 22:08:26 2007 Message-Id: <481619.13293.qm@web81012.mail.mud.yahoo.com> From: David Ehrlich Subject: Using proper names Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2007 19:08:26 -0800 (PST) I have a dear friend who has trouble reconciling scientific names with common names. I tell her a certain popular tree is Liquidambar and she’s OK with that until another friend tells her it’s a sweetgum. “Oh, no,” she’ll say, “my friend who knows all about these things says it’s a Liquidambar!” But her friend will insist. Then she’s confused. Last summer she told me she found out the name of a plant – it had the same name as a state, but she couldn’t remember which. I told her to point it out to me. She did. “That’s an Acanthus,” I said. “That’s it,” she said, “an Arkansas.” (Maybe she’s a little too hooked on phonics.) I used to despise common names. But now, I have become somewhat fond and always amused by them. It gives people a chance to wax nomenclaturally poetic, although botanists do that often enough with the scientific names as well. What I do despise are the phony common names often found in flora, where the author invents a “common name” for a plant lacking one. When a plant lacks a common name it’s either because the plant is not common or because few people are interested in it; the only people who are interested in it are precisely the people who would use the scientific name. From jimmckenney@jimmckenney.com Thu Dec 20 22:08:07 2007 Message-Id: <001101c8437e$f08aaee0$2f01a8c0@Library> From: "Jim McKenney" Subject: Question about Naked Ladies Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2007 22:09:44 -0500 David Ehrlich wrote: "There is a botanical word I'm looking for - it's something like gradient, but I don't think that's the word. It is used when referring to a species with a broad distribution which has one form at one end of its distribution and a very different form at the other end. The two extreme forms are sometimes considered separate species. But when the distribution is continuous and every intermediate form is found and there is no bar to interbreeding, this special word is used, and the population is considered a single species with disparate extreme forms" David, the word you want is "cline". Jim McKenney From jimmckenney@jimmckenney.com Thu Dec 20 22:29:09 2007 Message-Id: <001201c84381$e11b3d00$2f01a8c0@Library> From: "Jim McKenney" Subject: Lilium grayi-canadense; was RE: Question about Naked Ladies Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2007 22:30:47 -0500 Oops. When I wrote "reluctant to draw a sharp line of separation between what traditionally have been known as Lilium grayi (such as the ones in my images on the wiki) and the evidently numerous plants found in southeastern Virginia which clearly show the influence of both Lilium grayi and L. canadense..." Make that southwestern Virginia. The plant traditionally known as Lilium grayi definitely does not occur in southeastern Virginia and I would be surprised to hear that Lilium canadense does. Jim McKenney From jshaw@opuntiads.com Thu Dec 20 22:50:34 2007 Message-Id: From: "Joe" Subject: Using proper names Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2007 21:50:25 -0600 Calla was at one time the legitimate botanical name of what we now call Zantedeschia. =================== Hi Gang, Z. aethiopica has had three other names that I can find: Calla aethiopica, Richardia aetiopica, and Colocasia aethiopica. No doubt the latter name was coined with a very broad concept of the geneus Colocasia in mind. Jim M. hit the nail on the head when he pointed out that "legitimate" botanical names can change. I think all four names (above) were validly published, in the sense that "valid" names are those published according to the rules of the ICBN. LINK: Botanical Nomenlature, Valid Names (Wikipedia) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Valid_name_(botany) The nice thing about names becoming standardized (i.e., legitimate) is that such case usually means a clear understanding of a genus has developed. It is when we don't quite underrstand all the biology that Nature is tossing at us that names can keep changing. Smart folks (such as members of this email list) help by growing and studying plants, and by reporting on them. Cordially, Joe Conroe TX Cool tonight, the last Crinum americanum scape of the season was taken out by a frost a few days ago. From brown.mark@wanadoo.fr Fri Dec 21 02:54:13 2007 Message-Id: <004e01c843a6$abb61c50$116b085a@acer6281efdef1> From: "brown.mark" Subject: Unambiguous scientific name Scilla peruviana Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2007 08:54:09 +0100 What is wrong with Scilla and many people already know or can find it fun to know that it was a ship called The Peru which brought the bulbs to England and so arose the epithet.Any good book will tell you this.Does anyone grow the pink or yellowish forms mentioned in Brian Mathew's book 'The Smaller Bulbs' ? ----- Original Message ----- From: "Arnold Trachtenberg" To: "Pacific Bulb Society" Sent: Thursday, December 20, 2007 11:50 PM Subject: Re: [pbs] Ambiquous Common name nomination > Well, it's not only the "unscientific" among us who use common names > that are either misnamed or down right incorrect how about Scilla > Peruviana. > > Arnold > _______________________________________________ > pbs mailing list > pbs@lists.ibiblio.org > http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php > http://pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki > > From jshields@indy.net Fri Dec 21 08:19:23 2007 Message-Id: <5.1.0.14.2.20071221081756.00b05480@pop.indy.net> From: "J.E. Shields" Subject: Question about Naked Ladies Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2007 08:18:41 -0500 David, One expression for this that I recall is Rassenkreis, a breeding or racial circle or arc. I think I have seen "cline" applied to the sort of variational gradient you describe. We still someone who knows for sure to enlighten us! Jim Shields At 07:04 PM 12/20/2007 -0800, David wrote: >There is a botanical word I'm looking for ­ it's something like gradient, >but I don't think that's the word. It is used when referring to a species >with a broad distribution which has one form at one end of its >distribution and a very different form at the other end. The two extreme >forms are sometimes considered separate species. But when the >distribution is continuous and every intermediate form is found and there >is no bar to interbreeding, this special word is used, and the population >is considered a single species with disparate extreme forms > ************************************************* Jim Shields USDA Zone 5 Shields Gardens, Ltd. P.O. Box 92 WWW: http://www.shieldsgardens.com/ Westfield, Indiana 46074, USA Tel. ++1-317-867-3344 or toll-free 1-866-449-3344 in USA From j.grimshaw@virgin.net Fri Dec 21 08:35:45 2007 Message-Id: <015901c843d6$62d09bc0$0201a8c0@John> From: "John Grimshaw" Subject: Question about Naked Ladies Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2007 13:35:42 -0000 What I find amusing in this discusion is that nobody has commented on the subject header - and also, given the sensitivity of spam filters, it has still got through with such a suggestive title. At least its not trying to sell us viagra. John Grimshaw Dr John M. Grimshaw Sycamore Cottage Colesbourne Nr Cheltenham Gloucestershire GL53 9NP Tel. 01242 870567 COLESBOURNE PARK SNOWDROP OPEN DAYS 2008 January 26/27 and every Saturday & Sunday in February Gates open 1pm, last entry 4 pm website: www.colesbournegardens.org.uk From markmazerandfm13@earthlink.net Fri Dec 21 08:39:19 2007 Message-Id: <21746134.1198244359087.JavaMail.root@elwamui-lapwing.atl.sa.earthlink.net> From: Mark Mazer Subject: Question about Naked Ladies Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2007 08:39:18 -0500 (GMT-05:00) > >Please, I'm highly offended by people calling things Calla Lilies. Is this to include Georgia O'Keefe? best, Mark Mazer Hertford, NC Trying hard to resist the rise of the didactics From jshields104@insightbb.com Fri Dec 21 08:52:40 2007 Message-Id: <5.1.0.14.2.20071221082322.0272f638@mail.insightbb.com> From: "J.E. Shields" Subject: Bloom in winter Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2007 08:52:35 -0500 As entertaining as plant names can be, and I greatly enjoy these discussions, their flowers are also interesting. Right now, almost the only things in bloom are the Lachenalia ("Cape Hyacinth" I think). The early blooming L. rubida rubra is still going strong with its rosy pink tubular flowers, while the exquisite L. viridiflora, with its turquoise flowers, is just starting up. A friend in South Africa just wrote to me that he as assembled about 100 bulbs of Lachenalia to send to me! Wow! He has been searching out bulb nurseries, I guess. Some of my Lachenalia are almost weedy in the greenhouse. I see the characteristic pustulate leaves of L. pustulata showing up in several other pots. The even more characteristic rosettes of leaves of L. pusilla are in other pots than their own too. Fortunately, I can usually separate the interlopers from the proper residents of such mixed pots when I repot them in summer. The bulbs tend to look a bit different for each species. In bud but not yet in bloom, Androcymbium latifolium ( or pulchrum) and Lapierousia pyramidalis pyramidalis. Massonia pustulata and M. echinata are also in bud, while M. sp. cf. depressa (I'm not sure what species it is; this is it's designation this week) has finished up for the season. I tried to cross pollinate the two individual clones of depressa that I have, so maybe there will be some seeds for Dell to distribute in a few months. I grew these bulbs of sp. cf. depressa from seeds I received labeled "Androcymbium." An off-season flower bud of a Clivia is showing up as well. This plant is an interspecific hybrid of some sort, one that I received either as a small seedling or as a seed, and which has not bloomed before. I'm looking forward to seeing it flower. The main Clivia miniata bloom season is March and April (in the Northern Hemisphere), while some of the other species like gardenii, robusta, and caulescens, usually bloom in autumn. The interspecific hybrids can flower at almost any time of year, and winter is a good time for any blooms. Speaking of Clivia and common names, the most often seen "common name" for Clivia starts with K and is as racially offensive in southern Africa (home of the Clivia) as the N-word is in North America. The name K----- Lily is one "colorful" vernacular name that the world would be better off without. Musings and pictures of some of these plants will show up in my blog over the next month or so. Some of the Massonia are already there. Best wishes, Jim Shields in central Indiana (USA) Blog at http://www.shieldsgardens.com/Blogs/Garden/index.html ************************************************* Jim Shields USDA Zone 5 Shields Gardens, Ltd. P.O. Box 92 WWW: http://www.shieldsgardens.com/ Westfield, Indiana 46074, USA Tel. ++1-317-867-3344 or toll-free 1-866-449-3344 in USA From samarak@gizmoworks.com Fri Dec 21 12:21:56 2007 Message-Id: From: Steve Marak Subject: Question about Naked Ladies Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2007 11:21:04 -0600 (CST) Jim, Thank you! I encountered the word Rassenkreis many years ago, used to describe exactly the situation David mentions. The example given was a moth, I think, with one end of the arc in Florida in the US, and the other end somewhere around Belize. But I somehow got a bad spelling of Rassenkreis in my head, and despite only being a couple of letters off was never able to get a hit on it - until now. A long-standing irritation resolved, just in time for Christmas! Steve On Fri, 21 Dec 2007, J.E. Shields wrote: > David, > > One expression for this that I recall is Rassenkreis, a breeding or racial > circle or arc. I think I have seen "cline" applied to the sort of > variational gradient you describe. We still someone who knows for sure to > enlighten us! > > Jim Shields > > At 07:04 PM 12/20/2007 -0800, David wrote: > >There is a botanical word I'm looking for ­ it's something like gradient, > >but I don't think that's the word. It is used when referring to a species > >with a broad distribution which has one form at one end of its > >distribution and a very different form at the other end. The two extreme -- Steve Marak -- samarak@gizmoworks.com From jimmckenney@jimmckenney.com Fri Dec 21 12:23:18 2007 Message-Id: <000301c843f6$6821cac0$2f01a8c0@Library> From: "Jim McKenney" Subject: Bloom in winter Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2007 12:24:55 -0500 Here's one more new one to add to the list: Crocus hermoneus is blooming here in the cold frame. Late blooming Crocus goulimyi and C. longiflorus continue in the same frame. In another frame C. cartwrightianus in a white-flowered form is putting up more flowers, Crocus ochroleucus continues and another accession of Crocus longiflorus is blooming. Iris unguicularis continues to put up buds and blooms. This one is not in a cold frame but is placed against the house wall in the open air. I brought the Lachenalia in last week, but there is so far no sign of bloom. There has been no sign of usually early blooming Galanthus elwesii this year. I have home-selected clones which I call my Thanksgiving snowdrop and my Christmas snowdrop because of their approximate bloom times in some years - but not this year. Blooms are not the whole story here: the wintergreen Arum are very handsome now. Several big clumps of Arum italicum in the open garden are very cheerful. I accidentally dug into a clump of Eranthis hyemalis the other day and could plainly see the flower buds. Little Ambrosina bassii, which grows in the protected cold frame, was in bloom at this time last year; this year it is still putting up lots of new foliage. It looks bigger and healthier this year, and I expect it to bloom later. Notholirion thomsonianum has a nice rosette of foliage up in the style of a small Madonna lily. Foliage of Tulipa saxatilis is slowly reaching full size. Foliage of Amaryllis belladonna is about a foot long, the several Nerine have leaves about six to eight inches long, Lycoris radiata foliage is full grown, as is that of the various Sternbergia, Acis and other winter green amaryllids (although the various Narcissus are in all stages of growth). Tecophilaea cyanocrocus, now in its third year here, has a nice sprout on the way up. A Cyclamen from a seedling which appeared in the pot of a plant obtained from John Lonsdale under the label C. cyprium is making much better growth now that it's in the ground and out of the pot. On re-reading that, I realize that it gives the impression that there might have been some doubt about the name of the plant John supplied. No; I killed that plant, and before I could throw the pot away this seedling appeared. Ornithogalum reverchonii has foliage about a foot long so far. The vivid foliage of Asphodelus acaulis seems to glow: it's the apple of my eye now. This year I'm trying a Grand Soleil d'Or tazetta Narcissus in the cold frame. I'm pleased that it is growing very slowly and not rushing into bloom. And in the refrigerator that tiny scrap of Colchicum variegatum (from the plant from Janis Ruksans) has turned around beautifully and produced a strong sprout. This plant grew well here, but late in the summer the dormant corm collapsed and most of it disappeardd. A tiny piece of the foot (maybe a half inch by a quarter inch) seemed alive but soft. It went into the refrigerator right away, and after several months it has finally decided to grow well. Jim McKenney jimmckenney@jimmckenney.co Montgomery County, Maryland, USA, USDA zone 7, where a witch hazel is in full bloom and buds are swelling on the wintersweet and there are still Camellia sasanqua in bloom. My Virtual Maryland Garden http://www.jimmckenney.com BLOG! http://mcwort.blogspot.com/ Webmaster Potomac Valley Chapter, NARGS Editor PVC Bulletin http://www.pvcnargs.org Webmaster Potomac Lily Society http://www.potomaclilysociety.org From eagle85@flash.net Fri Dec 21 12:30:37 2007 Message-Id: <91EE7BD9-B9AD-4956-98B4-EFB5CAC214FA@flash.net> From: Douglas Westfall Subject: Bloom in winter Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2007 09:30:31 -0800 James, You left out H. aulicum and H. papilio which bloom in the winter. Regards, Doug From janemcgary@earthlink.net Fri Dec 21 13:25:17 2007 Message-Id: <5.2.1.1.0.20071221102848.016bfcb8@pop.earthlink.net> From: Jane McGary Subject: Question about Naked Ladies Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2007 10:30:10 -0800 David askedm >There is a botanical word I’m looking for ­ it’s something like gradient, >but I don’t think that’s the word. It is used when referring to a species >with a broad distribution which has one form at one end of its >distribution and a very different form at the other end. The two extreme >forms are sometimes considered separate species. But when the >distribution is continuous and every intermediate form is found and there >is no bar to interbreeding, this special word is used, and the population >is considered a single species with disparate extreme forms This is called a continuum. The same term is used in linguistics to describe a series of dialects of a language, the adjacent ones of which may be mutually intelligible, but the extremes of which may not be. Jane McGary >_______________________________________________ >pbs mailing list >pbs@lists.ibiblio.org >http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php >http://pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki From janemcgary@earthlink.net Sat Dec 22 13:36:16 2007 Message-Id: <5.2.1.1.0.20071221104329.01773ea8@pop.earthlink.net> From: Jane McGary Subject: Unambiguous scientific name Scilla peruviana Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2007 10:48:25 -0800 We won't have to worry about Scilla peruviana much longer, since the genus has been revised and split into about 14 genera, at least some of which will probably be accepted. I'm pretty sure S. peruviana and its one or two close relatives form one of the new genera. Instead, we will be confronted with the name Oncostema peruviana, and will think it is a previously unfamiliar plant from South America. Jane McGary' From brown.mark@wanadoo.fr Fri Dec 21 13:52:26 2007 Message-Id: <32618362.951861198263145407.JavaMail.www@wwinf1b31> From: Mark BROWN Subject: Question about Naked Ladies Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2007 19:52:25 +0100 (CET) Dear John, you have read my mind! This morning all these naked ladies in my e-mails were well acompanied.Since Wanadoo became Orange there seems to be no filter here at all. A propos of common versus scientific names is the old chestnut to bring out is of Ipheion uniflorum.How many synonyms has this in past literature and often still cited?Are botanists ever really settled on a name ever?And why should they be ?Science is part of a living culture that evolves as well as the vernacular does but I would easily say we have much greater stability in scientific names and they are universal.Vernacular names can't hope to compare with them ever.I am often asked what is the common name of such and such a plant.I many times can't reply simply because the plant is not knon to the general public here.Am I then bound to give it's local turkish or chinese ,or whatever, common name?What is wrong with one name for everyone? I fully agree that a thistle is a delghtful name but don't forget that it is used generically and not for just one plant whereas celandine or naked lady is,hence the confusion.I know of some people who still insist that an eryngium be a thistle of sorts... Happy Christmas to all, Mark. > Message du 21/12/07 14:35 > De : "John Grimshaw" > A : "Pacific Bulb Society" > Copie à : > Objet : Re: [pbs] Question about Naked Ladies > > What I find amusing in this discusion is that nobody has commented on the > subject header - and also, given the sensitivity of spam filters, it has > still got through with such a suggestive title. At least its not trying to > sell us viagra. > > John Grimshaw > > > Dr John M. Grimshaw > Sycamore Cottage > Colesbourne > Nr Cheltenham > Gloucestershire GL53 9NP > > Tel. 01242 870567 > > COLESBOURNE PARK SNOWDROP OPEN DAYS 2008 > January 26/27 and every Saturday & Sunday in February > Gates open 1pm, last entry 4 pm > website: www.colesbournegardens.org.uk > > _______________________________________________ > pbs mailing list > pbs@lists.ibiblio.org > http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php > http://pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki > > From alanidae@gmail.com Fri Dec 21 14:11:10 2007 Message-Id: From: "Alani Davis" Subject: Question about Naked Ladies Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2007 14:11:05 -0500 The term used in population genetics and ecology for this would be cline. This was defined in one text I doubled checked as a continuum of variation connecting to extremes. Alani Davis From janemcgary@earthlink.net Sat Dec 22 13:36:18 2007 Message-Id: <5.2.1.1.0.20071221105001.0176d480@pop.earthlink.net> From: Jane McGary Subject: Using proper names Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2007 11:21:44 -0800 I see that I offered the term "continuum" and others the word "cline"; both are used, but "cline" is probably more current. This is probably a useful time to recycle a bit I have periodically performed, mostly on Alpine-L, regarding plant names. Usually it's provoked by discussions of pronunciation, but usage also falls within the field of linguistics and particularly of lexicography, and of editing, disciplines I've worked in for a long time. In conversation, a word is "correct" if a significant set of likely interlocutors (people you're talking with) understand what you mean. That is, it's right if it works the way you want it to. Correctness in this sense becomes more restricted if you are addressing an audience whose understanding you can't predict; in that case you must choose your words more carefully, based on some kind of broad consensus. Writing, particularly published writing, addresses the latter kind of audience in the widest way, and so we have codified, prescriptive choices. ("Descriptive" pertains to what people actually say; "prescriptive" pertains to what educated consensus specifies they should say.) Editing involves identifying usages that may not be accessible to the widest likely audience and explaining or replacing them. This is why I now include international as well as American measurements in the Rock Garden Quarterly, and why it's important to use taxonomic names when writing about plants to an audience outside one's own language and indeed dialect area. It's never wrong to ask for clarification when someone uses a common name, especially something like "cedar," which means Juniperus in eastern North America and Thuja or Chamaecyparis in western North America. On the other hand, no useful purpose is served by applying prescriptive standards to usage in contexts where these standards are unnecessary. However annoyed you may be by the term "calla lily," pointing it out over coffee at a local garden club meeting can have several social effects you might not desire: (a) it redirects the topic of the conversation; (b) it seizes the "floor" or dominant position in an unexpected way; (c) it makes the other speaker feel inferior. It's much more tactful to model a preferred usage, which in conversation in North America, at least, would be "callas" and not Zantedeschia, in the hope that your interlocutor will imitate you. In editing, this is known as a "silent correction," because you change it without pointing it out to the writer, and the writer almost never notices that you've done so. He just smiles happily over what a good writer he is. One correspondent commented on how much he dislikes the fake common names printed in wildflower books. I despise them too and never keep them in articles I edit. No useful purpose at all is served by calling something "Parry's lousewort." The only set of people I know of who use such names in conversation are some members of the Native Plant Society, and I think even there the practice is slowly dying out. Publishers, however, often think that no one will buy a book that doesn't include English names for every plant, and they force authors and editors to supply these fake names. I often write, "If you can say 'carburetor', you can say 'zauschneria'," but maybe I'll have to change it now that we no longer have a genus Zauschneria. I'll bet people call them that in conversation for at least another 40 years, though. I know I will. Jane McGary Northwestern Oregon, USA From jshields@indy.net Fri Dec 21 14:41:45 2007 Message-Id: <5.1.0.14.2.20071221140722.00b056a8@pop.indy.net> From: "J.E. Shields" Subject: Question about Naked Ladies Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2007 14:41:40 -0500 Steve, Jim McK., Jane, and all, I also encountered the term Rassenkreis first in regard to Lepidoptera, but specifically to the butterfly Junonia coenia, which also ranges from Florida across the central USA to Mexico and Central America. It its case, I think there is at best very limited fertility between the Florida and the Central American forms, but with the same continuous fertility between neighboring populations. Steve described the situation very well indeed. I'm pretty fluent in German, but I also had to check the spelling before proceeding with my original posting. I thank Jim McK. for reassuring me that cline is also applicable. "Cline" might be more botanical, or it might be just a matter of years. I encountered "Rassenkreis" at least 40 years ago. It could easily have fallen by the wayside in that length of time, especially considering the degree of Anglicization of science in the intervening years. Jane, I have not encountered "continuum" used in a biological sense before. This probably shows how narrow my biology reading has been over the years. Whether Jim's Lilium greyii/canadense situation is a cline or a localized intergradation between two young, mostly allopatric and closely related species is perhaps debatable. I certainly don't know the situation with Lilium. Where you have two mutually interfertile species existing in sympatric populations, if there is a barrier, they can be pretty stable. Introducing the human element may be all that is needed to overcome such a barrier to interbreeding. I can see where, over time, and intermediate population could take over or it could be extinguished. If the parent species include individuals that are not fertile with members of the other species, they might prosper as the hybrids decrease. Getting back to vernacular names, I'd say there are many things you simply cannot discuss using vernacular names. On the other hand, the day is not far off when species, local populations, and individuals will be identified and defined by their DNA. It's just the direction things are going and will continue to go, barring some Armageddon or other broad catastrophe. Best wishes, Jim Shields in central Indiana (USA) ************************************************* Jim Shields USDA Zone 5 Shields Gardens, Ltd. P.O. Box 92 WWW: http://www.shieldsgardens.com/ Westfield, Indiana 46074, USA Tel. ++1-317-867-3344 or toll-free 1-866-449-3344 in USA From msittner@mcn.org Fri Dec 21 15:34:02 2007 Message-Id: <5.2.0.9.2.20071221122450.0347fd40@mail.mcn.org> From: Mary Sue Ittner Subject: Subject headings Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2007 12:32:00 -0800 Since my pleas asking people not to include the previous messages in their responses often get ignored, I wasn't sure it would help to remind everyone that is really does help to change the subject headings when you change the subject. This list has more than 430 members and most of them don't read every message and look to the subject to give them a clue whether to read the message or just delete it. Lately the subject headings wouldn't help a lot. Plus for those who read the archives or do a search on Google and just look at the subject they would never go much further. And at least one subscribers email has been rejecting messages with inappropriate content. I'm not sure what this is, but it could be "Na.ed" ladies. So since John brought it up, I going to ask you please to change the subject heading to fit the subject when this is needed. And please don't include the previous message, but if you must, only the part you are responding to. To those of you who already do this, thanks from all of us. Mary Sue From jimmckenney@jimmckenney.com Fri Dec 21 15:37:56 2007 Message-Id: <000a01c84411$987b9d70$2f01a8c0@Library> From: "Jim McKenney" Subject: Rassenkries and Lilium grayi- canadense; was Re: Question about Naked Ladies Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2007 15:39:33 -0500 Jim S., you and I are about the same age I think. I'm of the Rassenkreis generation, too. After posting my original message on this broad topic, I happened to check the wiki entry for cline and noticed that that entry uses a translation of Rassenkreis: ring species. By the way, I was not suggesting that the situation with Lilium canadense and L. grayi should be described as a cline. Cline, as usually understood, does not really describe what can be seen there, where there is a rather abrupt transition zone between one entity with a vast range (L. canadense) and another entity which is highly localized (L. grayi). It's fun to speculate about these things. Is Lilium canadense "capturing" Lilium grayi? Is L. grayi infiltrating L. canadense? There is definitely something going on between them. Jim, your description of the situation "a localized intergradation between two young, mostly allopatric and closely related species" is about the way I would describe it - but I would omit the words "species" and "young". Why? Aren't all sexually reproducing species of equal age? What does it mean to call some young and by implication others old? Hasn't there been an unbroken continuum of parents and progeny from the present back into unimaginably distant time for all sexually reproducing organisms? I don't consider my ancestry to be any younger than that of a turtle - it's just that mine has not been so conservative and has been a lot less stable and a lot more opportunistic. One other note, this one definitely meant humorously. Lilium grayi is now evidently well protected for most of the threats which it faced in the past (poaching for instance) or potentially faces in the future (site development for instance). But it seems to me that it still faces a real danger which, I'll bet, has not been addressed: what are the protectors of Lilium grayi going to do about the hummingbird problem? It's the hummingbirds which are mixing things up here. Something's got to be done about them. Jim McKenney jimmckenney@jimmckenney.com Montgomery County, Maryland, USA, USDA zone 7 where it's time to get back to potting bulbs (yes, I'm still at it). My Virtual Maryland Garden http://www.jimmckenney.com BLOG! http://mcwort.blogspot.com/ Webmaster Potomac Valley Chapter, NARGS Editor PVC Bulletin http://www.pvcnargs.org Webmaster Potomac Lily Society http://www.potomaclilysociety.org From jamievande@freenet.de Fri Dec 21 15:53:33 2007 Message-Id: <476C27CB.1050706@freenet.de> From: "JamieV." Subject: Question about Naked Ladies Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2007 21:53:31 +0100 Just a thought, but I think the term you are looking for is 'intergression'. It is often used when discussing reticulate evolution, which is the evolutionary theory that speciation is like a group of rivulets that flow in and out of each other over time, creating at any given moment in time that what we define as species. Intergression is the scale of diversity between two disparate entities, such as certain life-forms that span the planet and show form diversity, in many papers this is refered to hybridization. One could see the two ends of the spectrum intergressing across the genetic diversity of intermediates or hybrids. I've noted that various 'schools' of science seem to use different vocabularies to define similar principles. Sort of like the use of common names....hmmm. Cline I remember from my school years, refering to a series of related entities and also fits the definition partially, while Rassenkreis, which literally translates to circle of races, ist mir neu (is new to me!). I would think this is the same thing as cline. I think most schools now use clade, the relation groups/units used for cladistics. In the big picture all things are related and the result of continuous evolutionary flow. That would be intergression in the reticulate sense. Now, if we could just nail the evolution of the involved vocabulary! I get the feeling the names have been altered, as the need to hone the definition has evolved, which means, depending on when a particular text was published, the vocabulary may need to be translated. It this getting confusing? Wishing you all a wonderful holiday season, Jamie V. Cologne Germany J.E. Shields schrieb: > Steve, Jim McK., Jane, and all, > > I also encountered the term Rassenkreis first in regard to Lepidoptera, but > specifically to the butterfly Junonia coenia, which also ranges from > Florida across the central USA to Mexico and Central America. It its case, > I think there is at best very limited fertility between the Florida and the > Central American forms, but with the same continuous fertility between > neighboring populations. Steve described the situation very well > indeed. I'm pretty fluent in German, but I also had to check the spelling > before proceeding with my original posting. > > I thank Jim McK. for reassuring me that cline is also applicable. "Cline" > might be more botanical, or it might be just a matter of years. I > encountered "Rassenkreis" at least 40 years ago. It could easily have > fallen by the wayside in that length of time, especially considering the > degree of Anglicization of science in the intervening years. > > Jane, I have not encountered "continuum" used in a biological sense > before. This probably shows how narrow my biology reading has been over > the years. > > Whether Jim's Lilium greyii/canadense situation is a cline or a localized > intergradation between two young, mostly allopatric and closely related > species is perhaps debatable. I certainly don't know the situation with > Lilium. > > Where you have two mutually interfertile species existing in sympatric > populations, if there is a barrier, they can be pretty stable. Introducing > the human element may be all that is needed to overcome such a barrier to > interbreeding. I can see where, over time, and intermediate population > could take over or it could be extinguished. If the parent species include > individuals that are not fertile with members of the other species, they > might prosper as the hybrids decrease. > > Getting back to vernacular names, I'd say there are many things you simply > cannot discuss using vernacular names. On the other hand, the day is not > far off when species, local populations, and individuals will be identified > and defined by their DNA. It's just the direction things are going and > will continue to go, barring some Armageddon or other broad catastrophe. > > Best wishes, > Jim Shields > in central Indiana (USA) > > > > From jshields@indy.net Fri Dec 21 16:41:28 2007 Message-Id: <5.1.0.14.2.20071221163458.0360c408@pop.indy.net> From: "J.E. Shields" Subject: Introgression. Was: Question about Naked Ladies Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2007 16:41:24 -0500 Jamie, Close, but probably no cigar! I think the word is "introgression" -- the introduction of a gene from one species into another through hybridization and backcrossing (more or less). Between the lot of us, we seem to eventually get there...... I could not find the "-gression" part on my own. When you provided it, it only took me two or three hours to come up with the "intro-" part. As for Jim McK.'s hummingbirds, there is probably nothing we can do about them. Maybe put up lots of hummingbird feeders around the hybrid populations, to limit their further reproduction? This all started with a perfectly legitimate and innocent question from Marguerite, about what the real name for some "Naked Ladies" that grow in her town might be. Regards, Jim Shields At 09:53 PM 12/21/2007 +0100, you wrote: >Just a thought, but I think the term you are looking for is >'intergression'. ************************************************* Jim Shields USDA Zone 5 Shields Gardens, Ltd. P.O. Box 92 WWW: http://www.shieldsgardens.com/ Westfield, Indiana 46074, USA Tel. ++1-317-867-3344 or toll-free 1-866-449-3344 in USA From meenglis@meenglis.cts.com Fri Dec 21 18:30:24 2007 Message-Id: <476C4C84.5030905@meenglis.cts.com> From: Marguerite English Subject: Blooming now... was N...Ldies. Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2007 15:30:12 -0800 And it has gone in a fascinating direction, as always in the forum. My long-term choice is to buy one of each possibility for this spring and check them out more thoroughly than I have in the past... One of my favorite blues is now showing off in the plant room. Morea polystacha has one of the best blue colors there is! Each blossom doesn't last long, but there has been a new one each day for several days now. I have been trying to feed my winter-blooming bulbs better, and it does seem to make a difference. Also some red cyclamen (I don't know the species, and hesitate to call them Florist Cyclamen (g)) just in time for Christmas. Also blooming although not geophytes: Streptocarpus in a hanging pot, a few orchids, and the camellias. I keep reading that camellias are hardy outside here, but I get nasty Santa Ana winds just as they start blooming, so they are much better inside. J.E. Shields wrote: > This all started with a perfectly legitimate and innocent question from > Marguerite, about what the real name for some "Naked Ladies" that grow in > her town might be. > From jimmckenney@jimmckenney.com Fri Dec 21 18:30:34 2007 Message-Id: <000a01c84429$b5d915b0$2f01a8c0@Library> From: "Jim McKenney" Subject: Commercial sales of protected plants Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2007 18:32:09 -0500 I’ve been reading a lot lately about Lilium grayi and the efforts to protect it. The nominal species is evidently still in commerce. It occurred to me that it would make good sense to have government subsidized programs to propagate certain endangered plant species and to support their establishment as commercial crops. The chief advantage of this is that it would kill the incentives for poaching and allow the widespread distribution of germplasm. The plant loving public would get their plants, and by removing the economic incentives for poaching, the wild populations would be under much reduced pressures from collectors. It seems to me that most of the current management programs I know about have the opposite effect: they result in the concentration and localization of germplasm and they (unintentionally I’m sure) enhance the perception that the plants are worth having simply because they are rare. There is an undeniable cachet in having rare plants – newspaper articles about the cycad cult were a good exposé of this. I know some object to such an approach because it might result in the willy-nilly distribution of material which would obfuscate distribution studies. Modern technology might come to the rescue here: if records of the DNA fingerprints of the plants distributed are kept, that should obviate that objection. How do the rest of you feel about this? Jim McKenney jimmckenney@jimmckenney.com Montgomery County, Maryland, USA, USDA zone 7 My Virtual Maryland Garden http://www.jimmckenney.com BLOG! http://mcwort.blogspot.com/ Webmaster Potomac Valley Chapter, NARGS Editor PVC Bulletin http://www.pvcnargs.org Webmaster Potomac Lily Society http://www.potomaclilysociety.org Jim McKenney jimmckenney@jimmckenney.com Montgomery County, Maryland, USA, USDA zone 7 My Virtual Maryland Garden http://www.jimmckenney.com BLOG! http://mcwort.blogspot.com/ Webmaster Potomac Valley Chapter, NARGS Editor PVC Bulletin http://www.pvcnargs.org Webmaster Potomac Lily Society http://www.potomaclilysociety.org From meenglis@meenglis.cts.com Fri Dec 21 19:16:30 2007 Message-Id: <476C575C.9090802@meenglis.cts.com> From: Marguerite English Subject: Commercial sales of protected plants Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2007 16:16:28 -0800 Seems to me that the government doesn't have a charter for this. What about the Lily group or even PBS developing a program to propagate and distribute such species, and working for a legal way to handle protected species. This could start with rescue of threatened populations. It would require someone to come up with a well-defined program, and an adequate means of distribution. Could this be a more effective way to go about the protection of endangered plants? Jim McKenney wrote: > It occurred to me that it would make good sense to have government > subsidized programs to propagate certain endangered plant species and to > support their establishment as commercial crops. From voltaire@islandnet.com Fri Dec 21 19:41:23 2007 Message-Id: <3D45DC3E-36D5-4A62-97AD-EAD2B98044E7@islandnet.com> From: Diane Whitehead Subject: Commercial sales of protected plants Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2007 16:41:03 -0800 I know this was done to protect two newly-discovered plants, a new species of Clivia in South Africa, and a new conifer in Australia. I haven't seen the clivia for sale, but the Wollemi pine has been bought by friends of mine for a bit over $100. Diane From donjournet@netspace.net.au Fri Dec 21 19:53:30 2007 Message-Id: <476C5FC9.7000908@netspace.net.au> From: Donald Journet Subject: Commercial sales of protected plants Date: Sat, 22 Dec 2007 11:52:25 +1100 Wollemi pine is now selling for a lot less than $100 in Australia. I think it may be down to $25 now. Don Journet Diane Whitehead wrote: > > I haven't seen the clivia for sale, but the Wollemi pine has been > bought by friends of mine for a bit over $100. > > Diane > > > _______________________________________________ > pbs mailing list > pbs@lists.ibiblio.org > http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php > http://pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki > > From hansennursery@coosnet.com Fri Dec 21 19:55:12 2007 Message-Id: <008001c84435$218ca500$8df064d0@homed4aec9b2d8> From: "Robin Hansen" Subject: Commercial sales of protected plants Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2007 16:53:52 -0800 Margureite, You address a sore spot that has irked me for years. What's the good of putting something on the endangered list and not allowing people to legitimately propagate and sell these plants? It's all very well to preserve genetic material and reintroduce it into previous native habitats, but who knows how successful those reintroductions are. Then we have the case of Cyclamen somalense. It has been years since this was collected; the three plants brought out of Somalia may have bloomed but have not (to my knowledge) set seed. This plant may be lost before we ever get a chance to save it. Granted this is an extreme example, but Russ Graham can tell you a great horror story about what happens when a state (in this case Oregon) found out he was growing an endangered plant (and may also have offered the option of turning it over to the uncertain future fo state custody) and demanded that he destroy his stock. I don't recall the plant but it was one specialist growers were able to grow. It may not have ever entered the mainstream of good garden growers, but certainly would not have disappeared. So finding a way to legitimize commercial growing of endangered plants is something worth working for. Robin Hansen Cyclamen specialist From khixson@nu-world.com Fri Dec 21 20:09:47 2007 Message-Id: <476C63D7.7070308@nu-world.com> From: Kenneth Hixson Subject: Commercial sales of protected plants Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2007 17:09:43 -0800 Marguerite English wrote: > Seems to me that the government doesn't have a charter for this. What > about the Lily group or even PBS developing a program to propagate and > distribute such species, and working for a legal way to handle protected > species. This could start with rescue of threatened populations. It > would require someone to come up with a well-defined program, and an > adequate means of distribution. Could this be a more effective way to > go about the protection of endangered plants? > > Jim McKenney wrote: >> It occurred to me that it would make good sense to have government >> subsidized programs to propagate certain endangered plant species and to >> support their establishment as commercial crops. > Seems to me a couple things are not being mentioned here, such as the fact that if a private (ie, commercial) source were to make endangered species available, there would be no need for a government worker to do the "rescue", and no need for a government manager to submit grant requests, etc. Big brother has repeatedly shown that only big brother is looking out for what is best for us--even if we disagree. The North American Lily Society has an affiliated group-- called the Species Lily Preservation Group, with a propagation and distribution (sales)program. Membership requires dues (to the SPLG). I don't happen to be a member, so I don't know to what extent the recent illness of Ed McRae has affected the program, but other members of PBS are, and probably can give further details. The URL for the lily society is: http://www.lilies.org The Species Lily Preservation Group: http://www.lilies.org/slpg.html Dues are listed at $12.00/year. In these days of tissue culture, it only takes a stem tip, or an immature bud, to produce thousands of plants--or any number desired. The techniques and procedures are known, the facilities are available, it just takes money, a little time, and the willingness on the part of big brother to allow it to happen. We could be re-establishing rare/endangered plant species back into suitable habitats, without government funded programs. If big brother wants to fund it, it could be done without any more governmental programs. Alternatively, something like the BLM (Bureau of Land Management) or Forest Service, the Soil Conservation Service, or state land grant Universities could oversee this kind of program. Idealistic? Yes, but it could happen. Ken From milton@boldscape.com.au Fri Dec 21 20:14:55 2007 Message-Id: <476CFF41.15443.141C22D@milton.boldscape.com.au> From: "Milton Edwards" Subject: pbs Digest, Vol 59, Issue 11 Date: Sat, 22 Dec 2007 12:12:49 +1100 Hi, can anyone supply me with seed of Veltheimia other than bracteata, I am happy to pay for it. Regards Milton Edwards On 21 Dec 2007 at 20:09, pbs-request@lists.ibiblio.org wrote: From: pbs-request@lists.ibiblio.org Subject: pbs Digest, Vol 59, Issue 11 To: pbs@lists.ibiblio.org Send reply to: pbs@lists.ibiblio.org Date sent: Fri, 21 Dec 2007 20:09:47 -0500 > Send pbs mailing list submissions to > pbs@lists.ibiblio.org > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > pbs-request@lists.ibiblio.org > > You can reach the person managing the list at > pbs-owner@lists.ibiblio.org > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > than "Re: Contents of pbs digest..." > > > List-Post:<mailto:pbs@lists.ibiblio.org> > List-Archive:<http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/pbslist> > > Today's Topics: > > 1. Re: Question about Naked Ladies (J.E. Shields) > 2. Subject headings (Mary Sue Ittner) > 3. Rassenkries and Lilium grayi- canadense; was Re: Question > about Naked Ladies (Jim McKenney) > 4. Re: Question about Naked Ladies (JamieV.) > 5. Introgression. Was: Question about Naked Ladies (J.E. Shields) > 6. Blooming now... was N...Ldies. (Marguerite English) > 7. Commercial sales of protected plants (Jim McKenney) > 8. Re: Commercial sales of protected plants (Marguerite English) > 9. Re: Commercial sales of protected plants (Diane Whitehead) > 10. Re: Commercial sales of protected plants (Donald Journet) > 11. Re: Commercial sales of protected plants (Robin Hansen) > 12. Re: Commercial sales of protected plants (Kenneth Hixson) > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Message: 1 > Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2007 14:41:40 -0500 > From: "J.E. Shields" > Subject: Re: [pbs] Question about Naked Ladies > To: Pacific Bulb Society > Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20071221140722.00b056a8@pop.indy.net> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed > > Steve, Jim McK., Jane, and all, > > I also encountered the term Rassenkreis first in regard to Lepidoptera, but > specifically to the butterfly Junonia coenia, which also ranges from > Florida across the central USA to Mexico and Central America. It its case, > I think there is at best very limited fertility between the Florida and the > Central American forms, but with the same continuous fertility between > neighboring populations. Steve described the situation very well > indeed. I'm pretty fluent in German, but I also had to check the spelling > before proceeding with my original posting. > > I thank Jim McK. for reassuring me that cline is also applicable. "Cline" > might be more botanical, or it might be just a matter of years. I > encountered "Rassenkreis" at least 40 years ago. It could easily have > fallen by the wayside in that length of time, especially considering the > degree of Anglicization of science in the intervening years. > > Jane, I have not encountered "continuum" used in a biological sense > before. This probably shows how narrow my biology reading has been over > the years. > > Whether Jim's Lilium greyii/canadense situation is a cline or a localized > intergradation between two young, mostly allopatric and closely related > species is perhaps debatable. I certainly don't know the situation with > Lilium. > > Where you have two mutually interfertile species existing in sympatric > populations, if there is a barrier, they can be pretty stable. Introducing > the human element may be all that is needed to overcome such a barrier to > interbreeding. I can see where, over time, and intermediate population > could take over or it could be extinguished. If the parent species include > individuals that are not fertile with members of the other species, they > might prosper as the hybrids decrease. > > Getting back to vernacular names, I'd say there are many things you simply > cannot discuss using vernacular names. On the other hand, the day is not > far off when species, local populations, and individuals will be identified > and defined by their DNA. It's just the direction things are going and > will continue to go, barring some Armageddon or other broad catastrophe. > > Best wishes, > Jim Shields > in central Indiana (USA) > > > ************************************************* > Jim Shields USDA Zone 5 Shields Gardens, Ltd. > P.O. Box 92 WWW: http://www.shieldsgardens.com/ > Westfield, Indiana 46074, USA > Tel. ++1-317-867-3344 or toll-free 1-866-449-3344 in USA > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 2 > Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2007 12:32:00 -0800 > From: Mary Sue Ittner > Subject: [pbs] Subject headings > To: pbs@lists.ibiblio.org > Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.2.20071221122450.0347fd40@mail.mcn.org> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed > > Since my pleas asking people not to include the previous messages in their > responses often get ignored, I wasn't sure it would help to remind everyone > that is really does help to change the subject headings when you change the > subject. This list has more than 430 members and most of them don't read > every message and look to the subject to give them a clue whether to read > the message or just delete it. Lately the subject headings wouldn't help a > lot. Plus for those who read the archives or do a search on Google and just > look at the subject they would never go much further. And at least one > subscribers email has been rejecting messages with inappropriate content. > I'm not sure what this is, but it could be "Na.ed" ladies. > > So since John brought it up, I going to ask you please to change the > subject heading to fit the subject when this is needed. And please don't > include the previous message, but if you must, only the part you are > responding to. > > To those of you who already do this, thanks from all of us. > > Mary Sue > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 3 > Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2007 15:39:33 -0500 > From: "Jim McKenney" > Subject: [pbs] Rassenkries and Lilium grayi- canadense; was Re: > Question about Naked Ladies > To: "'Pacific Bulb Society'" > Message-ID: <000a01c84411$987b9d70$2f01a8c0@Library> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > > Jim S., you and I are about the same age I think. I'm of the Rassenkreis > generation, too. After posting my original message on this broad topic, I > happened to check the wiki entry for cline and noticed that that entry uses > a translation of Rassenkreis: ring species. > > By the way, I was not suggesting that the situation with Lilium canadense > and L. grayi should be described as a cline. Cline, as usually understood, > does not really describe what can be seen there, where there is a rather > abrupt transition zone between one entity with a vast range (L. canadense) > and another entity which is highly localized (L. grayi). It's fun to > speculate about these things. Is Lilium canadense "capturing" Lilium grayi? > Is L. grayi infiltrating L. canadense? There is definitely something going > on between them. Jim, your description of the situation "a localized > intergradation between two young, mostly allopatric and closely related > species" is about the way I would describe it - but I would omit the words > "species" and "young". > > Why? Aren't all sexually reproducing species of equal age? What does it mean > to call some young and by implication others old? Hasn't there been an > unbroken continuum of parents and progeny from the present back into > unimaginably distant time for all sexually reproducing organisms? I don't > consider my ancestry to be any younger than that of a turtle - it's just > that mine has not been so conservative and has been a lot less stable and a > lot more opportunistic. > > One other note, this one definitely meant humorously. Lilium grayi is now > evidently well protected for most of the threats which it faced in the past > (poaching for instance) or potentially faces in the future (site development > for instance). But it seems to me that it still faces a real danger which, > I'll bet, has not been addressed: what are the protectors of Lilium grayi > going to do about the hummingbird problem? It's the hummingbirds which are > mixing things up here. Something's got to be done about them. > > > Jim McKenney > jimmckenney@jimmckenney.com > Montgomery County, Maryland, USA, USDA zone 7 where it's time to get back to > potting bulbs (yes, I'm still at it). > My Virtual Maryland Garden http://www.jimmckenney.com > BLOG! http://mcwort.blogspot.com/ > > Webmaster Potomac Valley Chapter, NARGS > Editor PVC Bulletin http://www.pvcnargs.org > > Webmaster Potomac Lily Society http://www.potomaclilysociety.org > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 4 > Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2007 21:53:31 +0100 > From: "JamieV." > Subject: Re: [pbs] Question about Naked Ladies > To: Pacific Bulb Society > Message-ID: <476C27CB.1050706@freenet.de> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed > > Just a thought, but I think the term you are looking for is > 'intergression'. It is often used when discussing reticulate evolution, > which is the evolutionary theory that speciation is like a group of > rivulets that flow in and out of each other over time, creating at any > given moment in time that what we define as species. Intergression is > the scale of diversity between two disparate entities, such as certain > life-forms that span the planet and show form diversity, in many papers > this is refered to hybridization. One could see the two ends of the > spectrum intergressing across the genetic diversity of intermediates or > hybrids. > > I've noted that various 'schools' of science seem to use different > vocabularies to define similar principles. Sort of like the use of > common names....hmmm. Cline I remember from my school years, refering > to a series of related entities and also fits the definition partially, > while Rassenkreis, which literally translates to circle of races, ist > mir neu (is new to me!). I would think this is the same thing as cline. > I think most schools now use clade, the relation groups/units used for > cladistics. > > In the big picture all things are related and the result of continuous > evolutionary flow. That would be intergression in the reticulate > sense. Now, if we could just nail the evolution of the involved > vocabulary! I get the feeling the names have been altered, as the need > to hone the definition has evolved, which means, depending on when a > particular text was published, the vocabulary may need to be translated. > > It this getting confusing? > > Wishing you all a wonderful holiday season, > > Jamie V. > Cologne > Germany > > J.E. Shields schrieb: > > Steve, Jim McK., Jane, and all, > > > > I also encountered the term Rassenkreis first in regard to Lepidoptera, but > > specifically to the butterfly Junonia coenia, which also ranges from > > Florida across the central USA to Mexico and Central America. It its case, > > I think there is at best very limited fertility between the Florida and the > > Central American forms, but with the same continuous fertility between > > neighboring populations. Steve described the situation very well > > indeed. I'm pretty fluent in German, but I also had to check the spelling > > before proceeding with my original posting. > > > > I thank Jim McK. for reassuring me that cline is also applicable. "Cline" > > might be more botanical, or it might be just a matter of years. I > > encountered "Rassenkreis" at least 40 years ago. It could easily have > > fallen by the wayside in that length of time, especially considering the > > degree of Anglicization of science in the intervening years. > > > > Jane, I have not encountered "continuum" used in a biological sense > > before. This probably shows how narrow my biology reading has been over > > the years. > > > > Whether Jim's Lilium greyii/canadense situation is a cline or a localized > > intergradation between two young, mostly allopatric and closely related > > species is perhaps debatable. I certainly don't know the situation with > > Lilium. > > > > Where you have two mutually interfertile species existing in sympatric > > populations, if there is a barrier, they can be pretty stable. Introducing > > the human element may be all that is needed to overcome such a barrier to > > interbreeding. I can see where, over time, and intermediate population > > could take over or it could be extinguished. If the parent species include > > individuals that are not fertile with members of the other species, they > > might prosper as the hybrids decrease. > > > > Getting back to vernacular names, I'd say there are many things you simply > > cannot discuss using vernacular names. On the other hand, the day is not > > far off when species, local populations, and individuals will be identified > > and defined by their DNA. It's just the direction things are going and > > will continue to go, barring some Armageddon or other broad catastrophe. > > > > Best wishes, > > Jim Shields > > in central Indiana (USA) > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 5 > Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2007 16:41:24 -0500 > From: "J.E. Shields" > Subject: [pbs] Introgression. Was: Question about Naked Ladies > To: Pacific Bulb Society > Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20071221163458.0360c408@pop.indy.net> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed > > Jamie, > > Close, but probably no cigar! I think the word is "introgression" -- the > introduction of a gene from one species into another through hybridization > and backcrossing (more or less). > > Between the lot of us, we seem to eventually get there...... I could not > find the "-gression" part on my own. When you provided it, it only took me > two or three hours to come up with the "intro-" part. > > As for Jim McK.'s hummingbirds, there is probably nothing we can do about > them. Maybe put up lots of hummingbird feeders around the hybrid > populations, to limit their further reproduction? > > This all started with a perfectly legitimate and innocent question from > Marguerite, about what the real name for some "Naked Ladies" that grow in > her town might be. > > Regards, > Jim Shields > > > At 09:53 PM 12/21/2007 +0100, you wrote: > >Just a thought, but I think the term you are looking for is > >'intergression'. > > ************************************************* > Jim Shields USDA Zone 5 Shields Gardens, Ltd. > P.O. Box 92 WWW: http://www.shieldsgardens.com/ > Westfield, Indiana 46074, USA > Tel. ++1-317-867-3344 or toll-free 1-866-449-3344 in USA > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 6 > Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2007 15:30:12 -0800 > From: Marguerite English > Subject: [pbs] Blooming now... was N...Ldies. > To: Pacific Bulb Society > Message-ID: <476C4C84.5030905@meenglis.cts.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed > > And it has gone in a fascinating direction, as always in the forum. > My long-term choice is to buy one of each possibility for this spring > and check them out more thoroughly than I have in the past... > > One of my favorite blues is now showing off in the plant room. Morea > polystacha has one of the best blue colors there is! Each blossom > doesn't last long, but there has been a new one each day for several > days now. I have been trying to feed my winter-blooming bulbs better, > and it does seem to make a difference. Also some red cyclamen (I don't > know the species, and hesitate to call them Florist Cyclamen (g)) just > in time for Christmas. > > Also blooming although not geophytes: Streptocarpus in a hanging > pot, a few orchids, and the camellias. I keep reading that camellias > are hardy outside here, but I get nasty Santa Ana winds just as they > start blooming, so they are much better inside. > > > J.E. Shields wrote: > > This all started with a perfectly legitimate and innocent question from > > Marguerite, about what the real name for some "Naked Ladies" that grow in > > her town might be. > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 7 > Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2007 18:32:09 -0500 > From: "Jim McKenney" > Subject: [pbs] Commercial sales of protected plants > To: "'Pacific Bulb Society'" > Message-ID: <000a01c84429$b5d915b0$2f01a8c0@Library> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > > I?ve been reading a lot lately about Lilium grayi and the efforts to protect > it. The nominal species is evidently still in commerce. > > > > It occurred to me that it would make good sense to have government > subsidized programs to propagate certain endangered plant species and to > support their establishment as commercial crops. The chief advantage of this > is that it would kill the incentives for poaching and allow the widespread > distribution of germplasm. The plant loving public would get their plants, > and by removing the economic incentives for poaching, the wild populations > would be under much reduced pressures from collectors. > > > > It seems to me that most of the current management programs I know about > have the opposite effect: they result in the concentration and localization > of germplasm and they (unintentionally I?m sure) enhance the perception > that the plants are worth having simply because they are rare. There is an > undeniable cachet in having rare plants ? newspaper articles about the cycad > cult were a good expos? of this. > > > > I know some object to such an approach because it might result in the > willy-nilly distribution of material which would obfuscate distribution > studies. Modern technology might come to the rescue here: if records of the > DNA fingerprints of the plants distributed are kept, that should obviate > that objection. > > > > How do the rest of you feel about this? > > > > > > Jim McKenney > > jimmckenney@jimmckenney.com > > Montgomery County, Maryland, USA, USDA zone 7 > > My Virtual Maryland Garden http://www.jimmckenney.com > > BLOG! http://mcwort.blogspot.com/ > > > > Webmaster Potomac Valley Chapter, NARGS > > Editor PVC Bulletin http://www.pvcnargs.org > > > > Webmaster Potomac Lily Society http://www.potomaclilysociety.org > > > > > > > > > > Jim McKenney > > jimmckenney@jimmckenney.com > > Montgomery County, Maryland, USA, USDA zone 7 > > My Virtual Maryland Garden http://www.jimmckenney.com > > BLOG! http://mcwort.blogspot.com/ > > > > Webmaster Potomac Valley Chapter, NARGS > > Editor PVC Bulletin http://www.pvcnargs.org > > > > Webmaster Potomac Lily Society http://www.potomaclilysociety.org > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 8 > Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2007 16:16:28 -0800 > From: Marguerite English > Subject: Re: [pbs] Commercial sales of protected plants > To: Pacific Bulb Society > Message-ID: <476C575C.9090802@meenglis.cts.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed > > Seems to me that the government doesn't have a charter for this. What > about the Lily group or even PBS developing a program to propagate and > distribute such species, and working for a legal way to handle protected > species. This could start with rescue of threatened populations. It > would require someone to come up with a well-defined program, and an > adequate means of distribution. Could this be a more effective way to > go about the protection of endangered plants? > > Jim McKenney wrote: > > It occurred to me that it would make good sense to have government > > subsidized programs to propagate certain endangered plant species and to > > support their establishment as commercial crops. > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 9 > Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2007 16:41:03 -0800 > From: Diane Whitehead > Subject: Re: [pbs] Commercial sales of protected plants > To: Pacific Bulb Society > Message-ID: <3D45DC3E-36D5-4A62-97AD-EAD2B98044E7@islandnet.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes > > I know this was done to protect two newly-discovered plants, a new > species of Clivia in South Africa, and a new conifer in Australia. > > I haven't seen the clivia for sale, but the Wollemi pine has been > bought by friends of mine for a bit over $100. > > Diane > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 10 > Date: Sat, 22 Dec 2007 11:52:25 +1100 > From: Donald Journet > Subject: Re: [pbs] Commercial sales of protected plants > To: Pacific Bulb Society > Message-ID: <476C5FC9.7000908@netspace.net.au> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed > > Wollemi pine is now selling for a lot less than $100 in Australia. I > think it may be down to $25 now. > Don Journet > > Diane Whitehead wrote: > > > > I haven't seen the clivia for sale, but the Wollemi pine has been > > bought by friends of mine for a bit over $100. > > > > Diane > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > pbs mailing list > > pbs@lists.ibiblio.org > > http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php > > http://pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 11 > Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2007 16:53:52 -0800 > From: "Robin Hansen" > Subject: Re: [pbs] Commercial sales of protected plants > To: "Pacific Bulb Society" > Message-ID: <008001c84435$218ca500$8df064d0@homed4aec9b2d8> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > > Margureite, > > You address a sore spot that has irked me for years. What's the good of putting something on the endangered list and not allowing people to legitimately propagate and sell these plants? > > It's all very well to preserve genetic material and reintroduce it into previous native habitats, but who knows how successful those reintroductions are. Then we have the case of Cyclamen somalense. > > It has been years since this was collected; the three plants brought out of Somalia may have bloomed but have not (to my knowledge) set seed. > > This plant may be lost before we ever get a chance to save it. Granted this is an extreme example, but Russ Graham can tell you a great horror story about what happens when a state (in this case Oregon) found out he was growing an endangered plant (and may also have offered the option of turning it over to the uncertain future fo state custody) and demanded that he destroy his stock. I don't recall the plant but it was one specialist growers were able to grow. It may not have ever entered the mainstream of good garden growers, but certainly would not have disappeared. > > So finding a way to legitimize commercial growing of endangered plants is something worth working for. > > Robin Hansen > Cyclamen specialist > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 12 > Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2007 17:09:43 -0800 > From: Kenneth Hixson > Subject: Re: [pbs] Commercial sales of protected plants > To: Pacific Bulb Society > Message-ID: <476C63D7.7070308@nu-world.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed > > Marguerite English wrote: > > Seems to me that the government doesn't have a charter for this. What > > about the Lily group or even PBS developing a program to propagate and > > distribute such species, and working for a legal way to handle protected > > species. This could start with rescue of threatened populations. It > > would require someone to come up with a well-defined program, and an > > adequate means of distribution. Could this be a more effective way to > > go about the protection of endangered plants? > > > > Jim McKenney wrote: > >> It occurred to me that it would make good sense to have government > >> subsidized programs to propagate certain endangered plant species and to > >> support their establishment as commercial crops. > > > Seems to me a couple things are not being mentioned > here, such as the fact that if a private (ie, commercial) > source were to make endangered species available, there would > be no need for a government worker to do the "rescue", and > no need for a government manager to submit grant requests, etc. > Big brother has repeatedly shown that only big brother is > looking out for what is best for us--even if we disagree. > The North American Lily Society has an affiliated group-- > called the Species Lily Preservation Group, with a propagation > and distribution (sales)program. Membership requires dues > (to the SPLG). I don't happen to be a member, so I don't know > to what extent the recent illness of Ed McRae has affected > the program, but other members of PBS are, and probably > can give further details. The URL for the lily society is: > > http://www.lilies.org > > The Species Lily Preservation Group: > > http://www.lilies.org/slpg.html > Dues are listed at $12.00/year. > > In these days of tissue culture, it only takes > a stem tip, or an immature bud, to produce thousands of > plants--or any number desired. The techniques and procedures > are known, the facilities are available, it just takes > money, a little time, and the willingness on the part > of big brother to allow it to happen. We could be > re-establishing rare/endangered plant species back into > suitable habitats, without government funded programs. > If big brother wants to fund it, it could be done without > any more governmental programs. Alternatively, something > like the BLM (Bureau of Land Management) or Forest Service, > the Soil Conservation Service, or state land grant Universities > could oversee this kind of program. > > Idealistic? Yes, but it could happen. > > Ken > > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > pbs mailing list > pbs@lists.ibiblio.org > http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php > > > End of pbs Digest, Vol 59, Issue 11 > *********************************** > From voltaire@islandnet.com Fri Dec 21 21:03:03 2007 Message-Id: From: Diane Whitehead Subject: Commercial sales of protected plants Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2007 18:02:47 -0800 On 21-Dec-07, at 4:53 PM, Robin Hansen wrote: he was growing an endangered plant .... and demanded that he destroy his stock. ============================= If animals and plants subject to CITES are smuggled in to Canada, they are seized and given to a suitable zoo or botanic garden. Diane Whitehead From zigur@hotmail.com Fri Dec 21 21:09:12 2007 Message-Id: From: Tim Harvey Subject: Commercial sales of protected plants Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2007 18:09:11 -0800 How on earth is that regulated? All cacti are on CITES app. II and some are native to Canada. Do they dig them all up? What about material present in the country before CITES? Don't go giving the US any ideas ... T> If animals and plants subject to CITES are smuggled in to Canada, they > are seized and given to a suitable zoo or botanic garden.> > Diane Whitehead> > > > > _______________________________________________> pbs mailing list> pbs@lists.ibiblio.org> http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php> http://pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki From arnold@nj.rr.com Fri Dec 21 21:29:17 2007 Message-Id: <476C7638.1000300@nj.rr.com> From: Arnold Trachtenberg Subject: Commercial sales of protected plants Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2007 21:28:08 -0500 I would guess that lilies aren't as glamous or as PC as wolves, bald eagles or snail darters. Arnold From aley_wd@mac.com Fri Dec 21 21:44:44 2007 Message-Id: From: William Aley Subject: International trade in rare plants Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2007 21:44:38 -0500 From 1979 Convention on International Trade in Endangered Species of Wild Flora and Fauna (CITES) has limited the trade of endangered plants which is a function of individual countries. Currently there are about 25,000 species of plants which are within the CITES program., A country or the National Plant Protection Organization of that country will petition to the International committee to allow the placement of a plant species into the CITES program. It is the right of the sovereign country to control (or not) their natural resources. For instance American Ginseng Panax quinquefolius has a higher value on the international market than it's Asian cousin. US place native Ginseng on the CITES appendix II list which allowed controlled harvesting and government control over exports from the Northern states. For Wollemi Pine Australia opted to allow tissue culture to promote the distribution of germplasm and avoid loss due to the narrow habitat range. Some plants are very rare and so endangered and they are on the CITES Appendix I list. It is up to the NPPO to maintain regulatory control and often smugglers have more resources than governments to police when other social economic pressures compete for resources. The break down is as follows: Appendix I includes species that may be threatened with extinction and which are or may be affected by international trade. International trade in wild specimens of these species is subject to strict regulation and is normally only permitted in exceptional circumstances. Trade in artificially propagated or captive-bred specimens is allowed, subject to license. This covers certain species of orchids and cacti. Appendix II includes species not considered to be under the same threat as those in Appendix I, but which may become so if trade is not regulated. International trade in these species is monitored through a licensing system to ensure that trade can be sustained without detriment to wild populations. Trade in wild, captive bred and artificially propagated specimens is allowed, subject to permit. This would be nursery grown orchids, cacti and carnivorous plants. Appendix III contains species that are not necessarily threatened on a global level, but that are protected within individual countries where that state has sought the help of other CITES Parties to control international trade in that species. Examples include mahogany from Brazil, Costa Rica, Mexico and Bolivia The EU has expanded this to replace the three Appendixes into four Annexes, there the lowest Annexes is for plants not listed in CITES but individual countries consider the species at risk. http://www.cites.org/eng/com/PC/16/index.shtml In the US there is a balance between growers who want to promote and cash in on rarity and the conservation groups that want to preserve the species as is... http://www.explorers.org/expeditions/161diggles2003/161diggles2003.pdf verses http://www.telosrarebulbs.com/calochortus.html Individuals can trade in endangered species when artificially propagated. Problem is that the rare status is often lost when mass produced- like Phalenopsis and Cymbidium orchids now dying slowly at you local hardware store. rare becomes common place and then falls into obscurity when it's cheap and over abundant. Bill From voltaire@islandnet.com Fri Dec 21 22:53:40 2007 Message-Id: <526376E1-3620-4CC9-8508-D5D51BC380E0@islandnet.com> From: Diane Whitehead Subject: Commercial sales of protected plants Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2007 19:53:24 -0800 On 21-Dec-07, at 6:09 PM, Tim Harvey wrote: Don't go giving the US any ideas ... T> If animals and plants subject to CITES are smuggled in to Canada, they > are seized and given to a suitable zoo or botanic garden.> =============== All I meant to say was that protected species discovered by Customs agents are not destroyed, but given to a zoo or botanic garden. > How on earth is that regulated? There is a thick book of regulations that inspectors check before issuing phytosanitary certificates. They must consult international regulations as well as the regulations of the country to which the plant is going. This is not done on the basis of "type of plant" or even genus. For instance, not all cacti are protected, and the level of protection varies even for the ones that are protected. Included in my last importation of plants from the U.S. was a Euphorbia. This is a huge family, spread across the whole world, I think, and includes a few species on one of the CITES schedules, a lot of perfectly OK but unprotected species commonly grown in gardens, and some weeds that I am constantly battling. I could see the eyes of the U.S. inspector light up when he saw "Euphorbia" on my list. He would not accept my word that this was a commonly-grown species, but had to search his book of regs himself before writing out a certificate. CITES protection is to regulate trade in endangered plants and animals. There is no "search and destroy" mission for plants growing within countries. Instead, cute well-trained beagles patrol U.S. airports, sniffing at passengers and their luggage. Some can smell drugs, some money, some ham sandwiches, and some plants. Diane Whitehead From zigur@hotmail.com Fri Dec 21 23:06:23 2007 Message-Id: From: Tim Harvey Subject: Commercial sales of protected plants Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2007 20:06:21 -0800 As far as I can tell, if a plant has no phytosanitary certificate on entry into the US, it is destroyed, endangered or not. Same goes for if the name is spelled incorrectly, and it cannot be found in some magical database. CITES is the worst thing that ever happened to endangered plants. If I hd my wish (and couldn't get rid of it altogether)I would make one amendment: if a country lists a species on appendix I, within five years it must have propagated and made available plants or seed to interested parties. There are too many examples of plants being 'kept' in a country with no attempt to propagate or preserve it in situ. T> > There is a thick book of regulations that inspectors check before > issuing phytosanitary certificates. They must consult international > regulations as well as the regulations of the country to which the > plant is going.> > This is not done on the basis of "type of plant" or even genus. For > instance, not all cacti are protected, and the level of protection > varies even for the ones that are protected. Included in my last > importation of plants from the U.S. was a Euphorbia. This is a huge > family, spread across the whole world, I think, and includes a few > species on one of the CITES schedules, a lot of perfectly OK but > unprotected species commonly grown in gardens, and some weeds that I > am constantly battling. I could see the eyes of the U.S. inspector > light up when he saw "Euphorbia" on my list. He would not accept my > word that this was a commonly-grown species, but had to search his > book of regs himself before writing out a certificate.> > CITES protection is to regulate trade in endangered plants and > animals. There is no "search and destroy" mission for plants growing > within countries. Instead, cute well-trained beagles patrol U.S. > airports, sniffing at passengers and their luggage. Some can smell > drugs, some money, some ham sandwiches, and some plants.> > > Diane Whitehead> > > _______________________________________________> pbs mailing list> pbs@lists.ibiblio.org> http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php> http://pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki From voltaire@islandnet.com Fri Dec 21 23:29:28 2007 Message-Id: <3FFA8317-72AD-4C8B-AD9B-2090B5E1B533@islandnet.com> From: Diane Whitehead Subject: long-distance seed I.D. Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2007 20:29:10 -0800 I'm cleaning off my kitchen counter to make room for Christmas cooking. Most of the stuff littering it is plant-related, including little saucers of seeds, most lacking a label. I can tell the rhododendrons and onions, but one lot was a mystery. The seedpods had opened to a flower-like shape and released three sweet pea-sized seeds per pod. I took a photo and posted it on the Scottish Rock Garden Club forum. Within a couple of hours, an Australian had identified them as from a South African Wachendorfia. I looked through my photos from my trip there, and found one of a plant covered in furry 3-part seedpods. I hope they will still germinate. Diane Whitehead Canada From hansennursery@coosnet.com Sat Dec 22 00:29:21 2007 Message-Id: <00b301c8445b$990bf6f0$8df064d0@homed4aec9b2d8> From: "Robin Hansen" Subject: Commercial sales of protected plants Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2007 21:29:14 -0800 I held a CITES permit for cyclamen for about 3 years so I could ship to Canada. Because I didn't separate out wild-collected seed from other cyclamen seed in a very specific way, I had to renew it every 6 months. Holding the permit allowed me to ship cyclamen, many of which are on one of the CITES lists. I had to provide detailed information about where I got seed, how I propagated, and how I grew on the plants, complete with photographs and diagrams and descriptions of the nursery, beds, growing media, etc. Requirements may have changed as this has been several years ago... Also, it was clear that I wasn't digging up wild plants in their native habitat. Robin Hansen From marie-paule.opdenakker@pandora.be Sat Dec 22 06:03:11 2007 Message-Id: <000001c8448a$3d8b3cd0$b8a1b670$@opdenakker@pandora.be> From: "Marie-Paule" Subject: x-mas Date: Sat, 22 Dec 2007 12:03:10 +0100 Hello Friends, I hope with this site I can a lot of bulb friends transmit all the best wishes. For X-Mas and a happy and healthy 2008 Kind Regards, Marie-Paule Belgium tep.-10C°(14F) http://www.zinnenboek.eu/phrasebook/special/christmas/ From jglatt@hughes.net Sat Dec 22 08:55:12 2007 Message-Id: <476D1738.3030807@hughes.net> From: Judy Glattstein Subject: CITES II and Galanthus Date: Sat, 22 Dec 2007 08:55:04 -0500 A decade or two ago I was lecturing / visiting in England. A friend there offered me some Galanthus cultivars. Since Galanthus is on CITES Appendix II, I telephoned John Arcery at the Kennedy Airport APHIS inspection station to explain the situation. I suggested that my friend and I would go to a notary in said friend's town and testify to the fact that these were A) cultivars and B) propagated, not wild collected (though how one could wild-collect cultivars in the first place . . .) After all, I already had a general import permit that included Amaryllidaceae (I'd gone for plant families when applying for the permit, why be niggardly and restrict to genus, let alone a specific species.) Not possible, said John. I would need government level export and import documents. What would happen if I brought them in without said documentation on both sides? I was sternly informed that the bulbs would be confiscated and sent to the nearest approved educational institution. Which, in this instance, would be the New York Botanical Garden. Where I was then and am now an instructor. I thought about this for a bit, but decided that was getting complicated. Galanthus bulbs do look very much like those of Narcissus bulbocodium . . . Judy in New Jersey, where gray skies and patchy iced-over snow look gloomy rather than festive From jshields@indy.net Sat Dec 22 09:47:31 2007 Message-Id: <5.1.0.14.2.20071222092342.02746698@pop.indy.net> From: "J.E. Shields" Subject: Clivia mirabilis. Was: Commercial sales of protected plants Date: Sat, 22 Dec 2007 09:46:52 -0500 The new and rare Clivia species, C. mirabilis, is being propagated at Kirstenbosch and distributed through their greenhouse. It is not listed in CITES yet so far as I know, because I imported a few Kirstenbosch seedling plants of mirabilis in 2006. The availability of these plants was not widely advertised, since there are relatively few in cultivation. I think that part of the sales income goes to the Northern Cape provincial department of conservation. There are only two known locations for C. mirabilis so far as I know. The original colony is in the Northern Cape Province in Oorlogskloof Nature Reserve in the Bokkeveld Mountains. The Northern Cape Province has put severe limitation on access to that colony. The second colony is on a privately owned farm a few miles away, also in the Bokkeveld Mountains, but in the Western Cape Province. The Western Cape government had not, the last I heard, placed limits on what could be done with the plants found on private land. The farmer is propagating from his colony, mainly by seed I think. He did move a couple mature plants from the mountainside to his garden, where they seem to be doing well. They had barred visitors from Oorlogskloof when I was there in 2006; but as part of a group of Clivia enthusiasts, I did visit the farmer and the wild colony on his mountainside. The plants were in bud when I visited, and they bloomed the week after I left! This is described in my 2006 South Africa blog at: http://www.shieldsgardens.com/Blogs/SouthAfrica/index.html under the date 25 September 2006. Best wishes, Jim Shields in central Indiana (USA) At 04:41 PM 12/21/2007 -0800, you wrote: >I know this was done to protect two newly-discovered plants, a new >species of Clivia in South Africa, and a new conifer in Australia. > >I haven't seen the clivia for sale, but the Wollemi pine has been >bought by friends of mine for a bit over $100. > >Diane ************************************************* Jim Shields USDA Zone 5 Shields Gardens, Ltd. P.O. Box 92 WWW: http://www.shieldsgardens.com/ Westfield, Indiana 46074, USA Tel. ++1-317-867-3344 or toll-free 1-866-449-3344 in USA From jshields@indy.net Sat Dec 22 11:01:12 2007 Message-Id: <5.1.0.14.2.20071222101800.0272f618@pop.indy.net> From: "J.E. Shields" Subject: Commercial sales of protected plants Date: Sat, 22 Dec 2007 10:36:17 -0500 The Huntington Botanic Gardens near Los Angeles, California, has a marvelous collection of large barrel cacti, most of which were handed over to them by conservation officers, customs agents, etc., after confiscation of the plants as stolen or smuggled. I don't know if they propagate these confiscated species from seeds at the Huntington or not. They do attempt to propagate some of their rare species of plants. I have assumed that many botanic gardens are designated to receive plants confiscated by the government for lack of proper documentation. Does anyone know if this is true of other gardens besides the Huntington? Documenting populations by their DNA is a limited reality already, but this method is still far too expensive and cumbersome for widespread use. It is surely just around the corner for just this purpose. In South Africa, the native populations are somewhat exempted from the conservation laws when they collect plants for use as traditional herbal medicines or "muthi." This is endangering many rare species. Attempts to propagate such species in cultivation and thereby take the pressure off the natural wild populations simply led to the "discovery" that the wild plants were far more "potent" for muthi than the cultivated plants. You can see these plants (both sorts) on sale in the local markets. There are not any simple, easy solutions to preserving rare and endangered plants and animals. There is however a basic rule of the universe: Simple solutions to complex problems are always wrong! Best wishes, Jim Shields in central Indiana (USA) ************************************************* Jim Shields USDA Zone 5 Shields Gardens, Ltd. P.O. Box 92 WWW: http://www.shieldsgardens.com/ Westfield, Indiana 46074, USA Tel. ++1-317-867-3344 or toll-free 1-866-449-3344 in USA From voltaire@islandnet.com Sat Dec 22 14:08:10 2007 Message-Id: <614A9DB3-D600-44D9-B777-B8F11F30C28B@islandnet.com> From: Diane Whitehead Subject: Using proper names Date: Sat, 22 Dec 2007 11:07:52 -0800 I usually use proper names for plants. Occasionally when I Google a plant name I will get a website of little sea creatures, or some flying insects. I think some of these names were fritillaria and reticulata. When I look at bird lists, there are wonderful common names: Golden Spangled Whatevers, Northern Beardless-Tyrannulets. Do bird watchers ever use scientific names, or is it just us plant folks? Diane Whitehead From mark@marksgardenplants.com Sat Dec 22 14:29:37 2007 Message-Id: <018701c844d0$f63601c0$4001a8c0@galanthophile> From: "Mark Smyth" Subject: Using proper names Date: Sat, 22 Dec 2007 19:29:24 -0000 > Do bird watchers ever use scientific names, or is it just us plant > folks? Here in N Ireland there is a rare bird reporting answer machine service. Bird watchers can phone in what they see including migratory and native birds. They only use common names. I only use common bird names when speaking to someone from the UK or Ireland. I'm bad at remembering scientific names but use them when corresponding with someone from Europe. Many Europeans are now actually adopting English common names There are a few American birds in Ireland just now including a Great Blue Heron and American Golden Plover Mark N Ireland -- I am using the free version of SPAMfighter for private users. It has removed 11651 spam emails to date. Paying users do not have this message in their emails. Get the free SPAMfighter here: http://www.spamfighter.com/len From meenglis@meenglis.cts.com Sat Dec 22 14:40:57 2007 Message-Id: <476D67E9.4040104@meenglis.cts.com> From: Marguerite English Subject: Using proper names Date: Sat, 22 Dec 2007 11:39:21 -0800 Well said, Jane. I was trying to be subtle about this when I mentioned my garden club discussions. Most of the ladies really don't care what botanists call a plant, and the few who do reserve it for less generalized situations. Since I like these folks, I don't try to change them. It's something like previously being an English teacher, and correcting someone's grammar. Not something a polite person does, no matter how important grammar is or how much she knows. I find that people who do that are often being arrogant or unkind. It is different when we are writing or editing for a scientific or international audience, the naming rules are different than for a local audience. And, as you say, a good editor doesn't permit her authors to put forth articles that will embarrass them later. Marguerite Jane McGary wrote: > On the other hand, no useful purpose is served by applying prescriptive > standards to usage in contexts where these standards are unnecessary. > However annoyed you may be by the term "calla lily," pointing it out over > coffee at a local garden club meeting can have several social effects you > might not desire: (a) it redirects the topic of the conversation; (b) it > seizes the "floor" or dominant position in an unexpected way; (c) it makes > the other speaker feel inferior. It's much more tactful to model a > preferred usage, which in conversation in North America, at least, would be > "callas" and not Zantedeschia, in the hope that your interlocutor will > imitate you. In editing, this is known as a "silent correction," because > you change it without pointing it out to the writer, and the writer almost > never notices that you've done so. He just smiles happily over what a good > writer he is. > From jimmckenney@jimmckenney.com Sat Dec 22 15:22:44 2007 Message-Id: <000601c844d8$a3a0aca0$2f01a8c0@Library> From: "Jim McKenney" Subject: Using proper names Date: Sat, 22 Dec 2007 15:24:21 -0500 Diane asked: " Do bird watchers ever use scientific names, or is it just us plant folks?" The birders I know have always used common names. Although we share a language with the residents of the UK, by and large we don't have the same birds. That has not stopped us from recycling some good names. The birds called black bird, robin, warbler, oriole and - remember the fun we had with this one a while back? - buzzard in North America do not belong to the same families (in the zoological sense; names ending in -idae) as the birds of the same name in England. Their blackbird is a member of the thrush family, Turdidae and is very closely related (same genus) to our robin. Our blackbirds (the name is applied to several species of several genera) are placed in the Icteridae. Their robin belongs to the Muscicapidae, although older books list it as a member of the Turdidae (in either case, not the same genus as our robin). Our warblers are placed in the Parulidae, theirs used to be in the Sylviidae but are now broken up into several families; our oriols are Icteridae, theirs are Oriolidae. Our sparrow hawk and their sparrow hawk are both hawks, but different ones. There are others. And our buzzards... Jim McKenney jimmckenney@jimmckenney.com Montgomery County, Maryland, USA, USDA zone 7 where we have gone through at least a full cup of millet and about the same amount of sunflower seeds today at the feeders. My Virtual Maryland Garden http://www.jimmckenney.com BLOG! http://mcwort.blogspot.com/ Webmaster Potomac Valley Chapter, NARGS Editor PVC Bulletin http://www.pvcnargs.org Webmaster Potomac Lily Society http://www.potomaclilysociety.org From lizwat@earthlink.net Sat Dec 22 16:16:38 2007 Message-Id: <476D7EBD.9000201@earthlink.net> From: Liz Waterman Subject: Commercial sales of protected plants Date: Sat, 22 Dec 2007 13:16:45 -0800 *UC Berkeley Botanical garden receives some of the confiscated plants that survive a period of neglect in quarantine. I know some of the orchid collection was acquired this way. Liz W * J.E. Shields wrote: > The Huntington Botanic Gardens near Los Angeles, California, has a > marvelous collection of large barrel cacti, most of which were handed over > to them by conservation officers, customs agents, etc., after confiscation > of the plants as stolen or smuggled. I don't know if they propagate these > confiscated species from seeds at the Huntington or not. They do attempt > to propagate some of their rare species of plants. > > I have assumed that many botanic gardens are designated to receive plants > confiscated by the government for lack of proper documentation. Does > anyone know if this is true of other gardens besides the Huntington? > > From aley_wd@mac.com Sun Dec 23 10:22:43 2007 Message-Id: <1A3EF9FA-B488-4457-9307-2AB1BD58DAC2@mac.com> From: William Aley Subject: CITES II and Galanthus - Currently with APHIS Date: Sun, 23 Dec 2007 10:22:13 -0500 Times are different now. There is The Department of Homeland Security. Those are the folks in dark blue that protect our borders. APHIS and other government agencies like Fish and Wildlife and Public Health are no longer working at the entry points of the USA. That being said, USDA requires all propagative plant material to have a phytosanitary certificate from the exporting country. There are a few exceptions - (small lots of seed permits and experimental permits) CITES material would be documented on the Phyto as well as with the CITES documents. It is up to the exporting country to determine the necessity of CITES documents. In the situation you described below, this is how it works today.. Your would be better off contacting the US CITES representative at APHIS HQ in Riverdale, MD. The folks at the Plant Inspection Stations are good, but they are only validators and enforcement officers. Much has changed in 10 years. USA and APHIS as the enforcement agency for USA must follow the laws of CITES. In reality there "should" be no exceptions. It is an international agreement, USA has agreed to participate with CITES and ESA. For the most part this is the enforcement element that everyone notices the most. It seems unfair when an individual is traveling with a few rare plants and the government "seizes" them for no apparent reason and then "destroys them" contrast this to whole suppliers of rare plants. So what really happens? When the plants are presented or discovered at the ports of entry in the USA. Certain documents are necessary to allow those plants to enter. As mentioned the Phyto is the most important document. For rare plants, a CITES document. Because the US is currently busy funding a freedom operation to the folks in the middle east, government resources are limited and now importers myst pay a small fee for an CITES import permit $70 which is every two years (don't be too concerned- because in the very near future, the price will triple to about $350 for all import permits- Thanks be to George). If you don't have the documents- the government has to follow some specific guidelines to process the plant material. 1. the importer is provided 21 days to obtain the necessary documents from the exporting country. The plants sit in a not so nice place (usually depending of the plant inspection station it's as good as they have) at least it's not anything like where the plants were growing prior to being transported to the USA. After this period of time, the importer should be contacted to verify that they have produced the documents or the plants will be sent to the country of export or to a rescue center. Usually 15 days is the grace period for this. If the importer fails to obtain the documents. USA will contact the country of export and offer the material back to that country. The exporting country must pay for freight costs only. 99% of the time this is rejected. Then the plants are referred to Fish and Wildlife who looks art the address of the importer and follows a list of available rescue centers. They try to make the the rescue center NOT the same as the address or State of the importer. Too many folks at botanical gardens pulled fast ones and eventually the government figured it out. Then, now almost 60 days after the initial import into the USA, the plants are off to a rescue center. They arrive often very tired and in bad shape. Definitely not happy plants. But this doesn't mean you can't import. You just have to be aware of what the rules are and know who to contact. Remember the official documents. Those need to be obtained before the plants leave the country by the appropriate government official. Not every government is good at posting their information on the web, so you may have to research. Sometimes difficult when in Burma and your skill in either Gurma, Fulani, Dejula, or Tuareg is a little rusty trying to find out who and communicate to their government CITES representative may pose some problems. I'd recommend ordering plants on line or doing a lot of research before you travel. Have your permits in place before the plants or money are exchanged. Be prepared to work with people who may not know as much about what you are trying to do as you know. Often regulatory people have to do a lot of things and sometimes they just don't know what it is you are trying to accomplish. It's bad, it's unfortunate- but think about all the things someone expects you to do and how much do you know about all the things you don't do an a daily basis. Word of caution, trying to fool people will work for a while, but when you run into someone as smart- or smarter than yourself, you may have to explain your actions and if you have a history, often the Government is not so forgiving and challenges all that you've done in the past as probably not so innocent. They are the Department of Homeland Security and doubt and paranoia are part of the corporate psyche. APHIS is still in charge of policy- For now. some contact information: CITES Program Coordinator (APHIS headquarters in Riverdale Md) 301-734-5312 East Coast CITES Specialist (Jamaica, NY) 718.553.1732 West Coast CITES Specialist (San Francisco, CA) 650.876.9093 Permit information hhttp://www.aphis.usda.gov/import_export/plants/plant_imports/cites_endangered_plants.shtml A link to the manual used to regulated CITES plants- slow to download but this is what the government uses http://www.aphis.usda.gov/import_export/plants/manuals/ports/downloads/addenda.pdf Plant Inspection Info (large pdf document) with current information http://www.aphis.usda.gov/publications/plant_health/content/printable_version/PlantInspectionStations2007.pdf Bill On Dec 22, 2007, at 8:55 AM, Judy Glattstein wrote: > A decade or two ago I was lecturing / visiting in England. A friend > there offered me some Galanthus cultivars. Since Galanthus is on CITES > Appendix II, I telephoned John Arcery at the Kennedy Airport APHIS > inspection station to explain the situation. I suggested that my > friend > and I would go to a notary in said friend's town and testify to the > fact > that these were A) cultivars and B) propagated, not wild collected > (though how one could wild-collect cultivars in the first place . . .) > After all, I already had a general import permit that included > Amaryllidaceae (I'd gone for plant families when applying for the > permit, why be niggardly and restrict to genus, let alone a specific > species.) > > Not possible, said John. I would need government level export and > import > documents. > > What would happen if I brought them in without said documentation on > both sides? > > I was sternly informed that the bulbs would be confiscated and sent to > the nearest approved educational institution. Which, in this instance, > would be the New York Botanical Garden. Where I was then and am now an > instructor. I thought about this for a bit, but decided that was > getting > complicated. > > Galanthus bulbs do look very much like those of Narcissus > bulbocodium . . . > > Judy in New Jersey, where gray skies and patchy iced-over snow look > gloomy rather than festive > _______________________________________________ > pbs mailing list > pbs@lists.ibiblio.org > http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php > http://pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki From jwaddick@kc.rr.com Sun Dec 23 12:42:27 2007 Message-Id: From: James Waddick Subject: Winter Dreams - Pasithea coerulea Date: Sun, 23 Dec 2007 11:42:08 -0600 Dear Friends, It is now officially winter here in the northern hemisphere. Here we have been snowed in and iced in once each, received the first seed and nursery catalogs and there's 3 or more inches of snow on the ground. So naturally thoughts turn to plant acquisitions in 2008. A run through Google leaves me wishful for seeds or better a plant of Pasithea coerulea. This is a plant we've discussed a bit and is pictured on the wiki. I'd love to organize a trade for this plant from someone who grows it successfully. I have tried seed once, but bad climate coincidences did them in. Anyone grow it and have something to spare? Please write to me at jwaddick@kc.rr.com and we'll make a deal. That's number one of the list. Happy Holidays to all. Jim W. see http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki/index.php/Pasithea -- Dr. James W. Waddick 8871 NW Brostrom Rd. Kansas City Missouri 64152-2711 USA Ph. 816-746-1949 Zone 5 Record low -23F Summer 100F + From zigur@hotmail.com Sun Dec 23 13:21:27 2007 Message-Id: From: Tim Harvey Subject: CITES II and Galanthus - Currently with APHIS Date: Sun, 23 Dec 2007 10:21:10 -0800 Well maybe that's what is supposed to happen, but is absolutely not what has happened, as recently as the last three months. Has anyone ever been offered even the opportunity to obtain appropriate documents? I know of plants destroyed because of a simple typo the genus on the contents list, and "Nothing could be done". I even know of shipments that were supposedly returned but then all paperwork pertaining to the return was 'lost' along with the plants. It is hardly a system that inspires confidence. T> So what really happens?> When the plants are presented or discovered at the ports of entry in > the USA. Certain documents are necessary to allow those plants to > enter. As mentioned the Phyto is the most important document. For rare > plants, a CITES document. Because the US is currently busy funding a > freedom operation to the folks in the middle east, government > resources are limited and now importers myst pay a small fee for an > CITES import permit $70 which is every two years (don't be too > concerned- because in the very near future, the price will triple to > about $350 for all import permits- Thanks be to George).> If you don't have the documents- the government has to follow some > specific guidelines to process the plant material.> 1. the importer is provided 21 days to obtain the necessary documents > from the exporting country. The plants sit in a not so nice place > (usually depending of the plant inspection station it's as good as > they have) at least it's not anything like where the plants were > growing prior to being transported to the USA.> After this period of time, the importer should be contacted to verify > that they have produced the documents or the plants will be sent to > the country of export or to a rescue center.> Usually 15 days is the grace period for this.> If the importer fails to obtain the documents. USA will contact the > country of export and offer the material back to that country. The > exporting country must pay for freight costs only. 99% of the time > this is rejected. Then the plants are referred to Fish and Wildlife > who looks art the address of the importer and follows a list of > available rescue centers. They try to make the the rescue center NOT > the same as the address or State of the importer. Too many folks at > botanical gardens pulled fast ones and eventually the government > figured it out.> Then, now almost 60 days after the initial import into the USA, the > plants are off to a rescue center. They arrive often very tired and in > bad shape. Definitely not happy plants.> From aley_wd@mac.com Sun Dec 23 14:03:52 2007 Message-Id: <0E1603D6-24C4-4BEC-92EC-AA94BF1E94C8@mac.com> From: William Aley Subject: CITES II and Galanthus - Currently with APHIS Date: Sun, 23 Dec 2007 14:03:50 -0500 Well Tim, I can't say anything about your real life adventures but if you let me know the particulars, I'll contact the CITES Manager myself in the new year. Also anytime the Government makes mistake , you can at a minimum file for a Tort Claim. You may not get 100 % recovery, but you can reclaim lost $ for your effort. Every Tort Claim is investigated by OGC and creates motivation to change in the system. Remember it's your government, you can make the system work for you or you can sit back and wait for change to occur. Also CITES is not US law it is an international agreement. US adopts the CITES standards. Bill On Dec 23, 2007, at 1:21 PM, Tim Harvey wrote: > > Well maybe that's what is supposed to happen, but is absolutely not > what has happened, as recently as the last three months. > > Has anyone ever been offered even the opportunity to obtain > appropriate documents? I know of plants destroyed because of a > simple typo the genus on the contents list, and "Nothing could be > done". > > I even know of shipments that were supposedly returned but then all > paperwork pertaining to the return was 'lost' along with the plants. > > It is hardly a system that inspires confidence. > > T> So what really happens?> When the plants are presented or > discovered at the ports of entry in > the USA. Certain documents are > necessary to allow those plants to > enter. As mentioned the Phyto > is the most important document. For rare > plants, a CITES document. > Because the US is currently busy funding a > freedom operation to > the folks in the middle east, government > resources are limited and > now importers myst pay a small fee for an > CITES import permit $70 > which is every two years (don't be too > concerned- because in the > very near future, the price will triple to > about $350 for all > import permits- Thanks be to George).> If you don't have the > documents- the government has to follow some > specific guidelines > to process the plant material.> 1. the importer is provided 21 days > to obtain the necessary documents > from the exporting country. The > plants sit in a not so nice place > (usually depending of the plant > inspection station it's as good as > they have) at least > it's not anything like where the plants were > growing prior to > being transported to the USA.> After this period of time, the > importer should be contacted to verify > that they have produced the > documents or the plants will be sent to > the country of export or > to a rescue center.> Usually 15 days is the grace period for this.> > If the importer fails to obtain the documents. USA will contact the > > country of export and offer the material back to that country. The > > exporting country must pay for freight costs only. 99% of the time > > this is rejected. Then the plants are referred to Fish and > Wildlife > who looks art the address of the importer and follows a > list of > available rescue centers. They try to make the the rescue > center NOT > the same as the address or State of the importer. Too > many folks at > botanical gardens pulled fast ones and eventually > the government > figured it out.> Then, now almost 60 days after the > initial import into the USA, the > plants are off to a > rescue center. They arrive often very tired and in > bad shape. > Definitely not happy plants.> > _______________________________________________ > pbs mailing list > pbs@lists.ibiblio.org > http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php > http://pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki From eez55@earthlink.net Sun Dec 23 23:01:55 2007 Message-Id: <380-2200712124413462@earthlink.net> From: "Eugene Zielinski" Subject: Using proper (bird) names Date: Sun, 23 Dec 2007 23:01:34 -0500 No we don't. Scientific names are for ornithologists. Because there are relatively few species of birds (compared to plants), North American birders are able to use standardized English names. Jim McK used the term sparrow hawk in a recent e mail. While perfectly valid, this name is not the official name; the official name is American Kestrel. If you mentioned sparrow hawk, duck hawk, or pigeon hawk to a younger birder, he may not know what you're talking about. Mention American Kestrel, Peregrine Falcon, or Merlin, and he will (or should.) The American Ornithologists' Union determines the official North American names. There are a few checklists that establish English names for birds worldwide; the best known and most used is probably Clements. A few years back, the New World chickadees were split off from the Old World chickadees. Originally, both were in the genus Parus; the New World birds were put into the genus Poecile. The American birding community barely noticed. At about the same time, Oldsquaw was officially changed to Long-tailed Duck. This caused a minor ruckus. Incidentally, I've seen Northern-Beardless Tyrannulets, Masked Boobies, Golden-winged Warblers, and Yellow-bellied Sapsuckers -- and more. Gene Eugene Zielinski Augusta, GA USA > Message: 10 > Date: Sat, 22 Dec 2007 11:07:52 -0800 > From: Diane Whitehead > Subject: Re: [pbs] Using proper names > To: Pacific Bulb Society > > When I look at bird lists, there are wonderful common names: Golden > Spangled Whatevers, Northern Beardless-Tyrannulets. > > Do bird watchers ever use scientific names, or is it just us plant > folks? > > > > Diane Whitehead > > > > > From piabinha@yahoo.com Sun Dec 23 23:06:34 2007 Message-Id: <118481.84992.qm@web51905.mail.re2.yahoo.com> From: piaba Subject: names Date: Sun, 23 Dec 2007 20:06:33 -0800 (PST) > > What I find amusing in this discusion is that > nobody has commented on the > > subject header - and also, given the sensitivity > of spam filters, it has > > still got through with such a suggestive title. At > least its not trying to > > sell us viagra. or Hoodia. i wonder how many legitimate emails about Hoodia don't reach their destination... john, considering your email address is @virgin.net, yes, you should blush on reading about naked ladies... :-) is the concept of "cline" similar to a species complex? my big pet peeve about names is how we overuse certain names, such as "lily". we call everything a lily! i think even some ginger, in addition to Lillium, Zantedeschia, Convallaria, etc. ========= tsuh yang ____________________________________________________________________________________ Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ From eez55@earthlink.net Sun Dec 23 23:07:49 2007 Message-Id: <380-22007121244725859@earthlink.net> From: "Eugene Zielinski" Subject: FW: Re: Using proper (bird) names Date: Sun, 23 Dec 2007 23:07:25 -0500 No we don't. Scientific names are for ornithologists. Because there are relatively few species of birds (compared to plants), North American birders are able to use standardized English names. Jim McK used the term sparrow hawk in a recent e mail. While perfectly valid, this name is not the official name; the official name is American Kestrel. If you mentioned sparrow hawk, duck hawk, or pigeon hawk to a younger birder, he may not know what you're talking about. Mention American Kestrel, Peregrine Falcon, or Merlin, and he will (or should.) The American Ornithologists' Union determines the official North American names. There are a few checklists that establish English names for birds worldwide; the best known and most used is probably Clements. A few years back, the New World chickadees were split off from the Old World chickadees. Originally, both were in the genus Parus; the New World birds were put into the genus Poecile. The American birding community barely noticed. At about the same time, Oldsquaw was officially changed to Long-tailed Duck. This caused a minor ruckus. Incidentally, I've seen Northern-Beardless Tyrannulets, Masked Boobies, Golden-winged Warblers, and Yellow-bellied Sapsuckers -- and more. Gene Eugene Zielinski Augusta, GA USA > Message: 10 > Date: Sat, 22 Dec 2007 11:07:52 -0800 > From: Diane Whitehead > Subject: Re: [pbs] Using proper names > To: Pacific Bulb Society > > When I look at bird lists, there are wonderful common names: Golden > Spangled Whatevers, Northern Beardless-Tyrannulets. > > Do bird watchers ever use scientific names, or is it just us plant > folks? > > > > Diane Whitehead > From piabinha@yahoo.com Mon Dec 24 00:04:36 2007 Message-Id: <757732.44637.qm@web51901.mail.re2.yahoo.com> From: piaba Subject: Using proper names Date: Sun, 23 Dec 2007 21:04:35 -0800 (PST) > Their blackbird is a member of the thrush family, > Turdidae and is very > closely related (same genus) to our robin. Our > blackbirds (the name is > applied to several species of several genera) are > placed in the Icteridae. funny you should mention that. just this week i was at a restaurant, and they had "blackfish" in the menu. i thought to myself, which one? ========= tsuh yang ____________________________________________________________________________________ Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your home page. http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs From meenglis@meenglis.cts.com Mon Dec 24 14:48:50 2007 Message-Id: <47700D1A.9060809@meenglis.cts.com> From: Marguerite English Subject: Best wishes. Date: Mon, 24 Dec 2007 11:48:42 -0800 And to all of you this holiday. Please have a lovely Christmas season and a bulb-filled new year! Marguerite From eagle85@flash.net Mon Dec 24 15:57:07 2007 Message-Id: <85A373E0-AF9D-47B1-9603-779C32733A73@flash.net> From: Douglas Westfall Subject: Merry Christmas Date: Mon, 24 Dec 2007 12:57:04 -0800 To ALL PBS members, have a wonderful Christmas and a happy,sober New Year. May all your Haemanthus, Scadoxus, and Hippeastrum have their best year ever! (I already have H. aulicum and H. papilio blooming. Doug Westfall In Long Beach,California From ptyerman@ozemail.com.au Mon Dec 24 17:39:50 2007 Message-Id: <6a9ms5$7j7lhu@outbound.icp-qv1-irony-out1.iinet.net.au> From: "Paul T." Subject: Merry Christmas Date: Tue, 25 Dec 2007 09:39:28 +1100 At 07:57 AM 25/12/2007, you wrote: >To ALL PBS members, have a wonderful Christmas and a happy,sober New >Year. May all your Haemanthus, Scadoxus, and Hippeastrum have their >best year ever! (I already have H. aulicum and H. papilio blooming. Doug et al, Thanks for the best wishes everyone. Here's some more, this time from Australia. Have a most excellent Silly Season everyone, and may 2008 hold everything you want it to and much more!! Thanks to everyone for their wonderful help and sharing of knowledge in 2007. All the very best. Cheers. Paul T. Canberra, Australia (where it is 9:30am on Christmas morning!!) From 320083817243-0001@t-online.de Mon Dec 24 18:30:01 2007 Message-Id: <1J6wk8-0ubbCi0@fwd33.aul.t-online.de> From: 320083817243-0001@t-online.de (Johannes-Ulrich Urban) Subject: Mexico Date: Tue, 25 Dec 2007 00:29:56 +0100 Dear All Having been "offline" for quite some time, I read the BX 162 and was very interested in reading about the Mexican plants by Dennis Szesko. As I travelled Mexico in November 2006, I would like to share experiences, would you mind contacting me, Dennis? My best wishes for Chrismas and the New Year to all fellow members of this list! Uli From 320083817243-0001@t-online.de Mon Dec 24 18:30:01 2007 Message-Id: <1J6wk9-0ubbCk0@fwd33.aul.t-online.de> From: 320083817243-0001@t-online.de (Johannes-Ulrich Urban) Subject: Zantedeschia odorata Date: Tue, 25 Dec 2007 00:29:57 +0100 Zantedeschia odorata is a surprisingly difficult plant to grow with me. I got a rhizome years ago from a plant friend in England, lost it, got it again from him and had one, in words ONE single flower all these years. I do not remember any fragrance but I cross pollinated it in both ways with a very good form of Z. aethiopica (a from I got from Mr Holford in Cornwall) The seedlings are still there but most are lacking chorophyll and look strangely pale green to whitish-yellowish green but improve with age. No flowers as yet.... (with that kind of parent....) The Z.odorata tuber was planted in the open border of a frost free greenhouse this autumn, in barely moist soil (it is definetely not a swamp plant like Z.aethiopica) and off it took with leaves of a size I had never seen before as long as it was pot grown. So there is hope for flowers but it is too early in the season to know. Will keep yuo informed. I also saw it growing wild near Niewoudville in a flower reserve in deep fissures of rock the leaves at level with the flar rock surface and definetley well drained but probably never totally dry. Uli from Germany From fsthorne@hawaii.rr.com Mon Dec 24 18:45:24 2007 Message-Id: <20071224234522.KJFK21064.hrndva-omta02.mail.rr.com@Annabelle> From: "Fred Thorne" Subject: Aloha and Han`oli Makahiki Hon Date: Mon, 24 Dec 2007 13:44:37 -1000 Happy Holidays to all! Fred and Paula Thorne Pahoa, Hawaii -----Original Message----- From: pbs-bounces@lists.ibiblio.org [mailto:pbs-bounces@lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf Of pbs-request@lists.ibiblio.org Sent: Monday, December 24, 2007 12:40 PM To: pbs@lists.ibiblio.org Subject: pbs Digest, Vol 59, Issue 14 Send pbs mailing list submissions to pbs@lists.ibiblio.org To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to pbs-request@lists.ibiblio.org You can reach the person managing the list at pbs-owner@lists.ibiblio.org When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of pbs digest..." List-Post:<mailto:pbs@lists.ibiblio.org> List-Archive:<http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/pbslist> Today's Topics: 1. Re: Commercial sales of protected plants (Liz Waterman) 2. Re: CITES II and Galanthus - Currently with APHIS (William Aley) 3. Winter Dreams - Pasithea coerulea (James Waddick) 4. Re: CITES II and Galanthus - Currently with APHIS (Tim Harvey) 5. Re: CITES II and Galanthus - Currently with APHIS (William Aley) 6. Re: Using proper (bird) names (Eugene Zielinski) 7. Re: names (piaba) 8. FW: Re: Using proper (bird) names (Eugene Zielinski) 9. Re: Using proper names (piaba) 10. Best wishes. (Marguerite English) 11. Re: Merry Christmas (Douglas Westfall) 12. Re: Merry Christmas (Paul T.) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Message: 1 Date: Sat, 22 Dec 2007 13:16:45 -0800 From: Liz Waterman Subject: Re: [pbs] Commercial sales of protected plants To: Pacific Bulb Society Message-ID: <476D7EBD.9000201@earthlink.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed *UC Berkeley Botanical garden receives some of the confiscated plants that survive a period of neglect in quarantine. I know some of the orchid collection was acquired this way. Liz W * J.E. Shields wrote: > The Huntington Botanic Gardens near Los Angeles, California, has a > marvelous collection of large barrel cacti, most of which were handed over > to them by conservation officers, customs agents, etc., after confiscation > of the plants as stolen or smuggled. I don't know if they propagate these > confiscated species from seeds at the Huntington or not. They do attempt > to propagate some of their rare species of plants. > > I have assumed that many botanic gardens are designated to receive plants > confiscated by the government for lack of proper documentation. Does > anyone know if this is true of other gardens besides the Huntington? > > ------------------------------ Message: 2 Date: Sun, 23 Dec 2007 10:22:13 -0500 From: William Aley Subject: Re: [pbs] CITES II and Galanthus - Currently with APHIS To: Pacific Bulb Society Message-ID: <1A3EF9FA-B488-4457-9307-2AB1BD58DAC2@mac.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes Times are different now. There is The Department of Homeland Security. Those are the folks in dark blue that protect our borders. APHIS and other government agencies like Fish and Wildlife and Public Health are no longer working at the entry points of the USA. That being said, USDA requires all propagative plant material to have a phytosanitary certificate from the exporting country. There are a few exceptions - (small lots of seed permits and experimental permits) CITES material would be documented on the Phyto as well as with the CITES documents. It is up to the exporting country to determine the necessity of CITES documents. In the situation you described below, this is how it works today.. Your would be better off contacting the US CITES representative at APHIS HQ in Riverdale, MD. The folks at the Plant Inspection Stations are good, but they are only validators and enforcement officers. Much has changed in 10 years. USA and APHIS as the enforcement agency for USA must follow the laws of CITES. In reality there "should" be no exceptions. It is an international agreement, USA has agreed to participate with CITES and ESA. For the most part this is the enforcement element that everyone notices the most. It seems unfair when an individual is traveling with a few rare plants and the government "seizes" them for no apparent reason and then "destroys them" contrast this to whole suppliers of rare plants. So what really happens? When the plants are presented or discovered at the ports of entry in the USA. Certain documents are necessary to allow those plants to enter. As mentioned the Phyto is the most important document. For rare plants, a CITES document. Because the US is currently busy funding a freedom operation to the folks in the middle east, government resources are limited and now importers myst pay a small fee for an CITES import permit $70 which is every two years (don't be too concerned- because in the very near future, the price will triple to about $350 for all import permits- Thanks be to George). If you don't have the documents- the government has to follow some specific guidelines to process the plant material. 1. the importer is provided 21 days to obtain the necessary documents from the exporting country. The plants sit in a not so nice place (usually depending of the plant inspection station it's as good as they have) at least it's not anything like where the plants were growing prior to being transported to the USA. After this period of time, the importer should be contacted to verify that they have produced the documents or the plants will be sent to the country of export or to a rescue center. Usually 15 days is the grace period for this. If the importer fails to obtain the documents. USA will contact the country of export and offer the material back to that country. The exporting country must pay for freight costs only. 99% of the time this is rejected. Then the plants are referred to Fish and Wildlife who looks art the address of the importer and follows a list of available rescue centers. They try to make the the rescue center NOT the same as the address or State of the importer. Too many folks at botanical gardens pulled fast ones and eventually the government figured it out. Then, now almost 60 days after the initial import into the USA, the plants are off to a rescue center. They arrive often very tired and in bad shape. Definitely not happy plants. But this doesn't mean you can't import. You just have to be aware of what the rules are and know who to contact. Remember the official documents. Those need to be obtained before the plants leave the country by the appropriate government official. Not every government is good at posting their information on the web, so you may have to research. Sometimes difficult when in Burma and your skill in either Gurma, Fulani, Dejula, or Tuareg is a little rusty trying to find out who and communicate to their government CITES representative may pose some problems. I'd recommend ordering plants on line or doing a lot of research before you travel. Have your permits in place before the plants or money are exchanged. Be prepared to work with people who may not know as much about what you are trying to do as you know. Often regulatory people have to do a lot of things and sometimes they just don't know what it is you are trying to accomplish. It's bad, it's unfortunate- but think about all the things someone expects you to do and how much do you know about all the things you don't do an a daily basis. Word of caution, trying to fool people will work for a while, but when you run into someone as smart- or smarter than yourself, you may have to explain your actions and if you have a history, often the Government is not so forgiving and challenges all that you've done in the past as probably not so innocent. They are the Department of Homeland Security and doubt and paranoia are part of the corporate psyche. APHIS is still in charge of policy- For now. some contact information: CITES Program Coordinator (APHIS headquarters in Riverdale Md) 301-734-5312 East Coast CITES Specialist (Jamaica, NY) 718.553.1732 West Coast CITES Specialist (San Francisco, CA) 650.876.9093 Permit information hhttp://www.aphis.usda.gov/import_export/plants/plant_imports/cites_endanger ed_plants.shtml A link to the manual used to regulated CITES plants- slow to download but this is what the government uses http://www.aphis.usda.gov/import_export/plants/manuals/ports/downloads/adden da.pdf Plant Inspection Info (large pdf document) with current information http://www.aphis.usda.gov/publications/plant_health/content/printable_versio n/PlantInspectionStations2007.pdf Bill On Dec 22, 2007, at 8:55 AM, Judy Glattstein wrote: > A decade or two ago I was lecturing / visiting in England. A friend > there offered me some Galanthus cultivars. Since Galanthus is on CITES > Appendix II, I telephoned John Arcery at the Kennedy Airport APHIS > inspection station to explain the situation. I suggested that my > friend > and I would go to a notary in said friend's town and testify to the > fact > that these were A) cultivars and B) propagated, not wild collected > (though how one could wild-collect cultivars in the first place . . .) > After all, I already had a general import permit that included > Amaryllidaceae (I'd gone for plant families when applying for the > permit, why be niggardly and restrict to genus, let alone a specific > species.) > > Not possible, said John. I would need government level export and > import > documents. > > What would happen if I brought them in without said documentation on > both sides? > > I was sternly informed that the bulbs would be confiscated and sent to > the nearest approved educational institution. Which, in this instance, > would be the New York Botanical Garden. Where I was then and am now an > instructor. I thought about this for a bit, but decided that was > getting > complicated. > > Galanthus bulbs do look very much like those of Narcissus > bulbocodium . . . > > Judy in New Jersey, where gray skies and patchy iced-over snow look > gloomy rather than festive > _______________________________________________ > pbs mailing list > pbs@lists.ibiblio.org > http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php > http://pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki ------------------------------ Message: 3 Date: Sun, 23 Dec 2007 11:42:08 -0600 From: James Waddick Subject: [pbs] Winter Dreams - Pasithea coerulea To: Pacific Bulb Society Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Dear Friends, It is now officially winter here in the northern hemisphere. Here we have been snowed in and iced in once each, received the first seed and nursery catalogs and there's 3 or more inches of snow on the ground. So naturally thoughts turn to plant acquisitions in 2008. A run through Google leaves me wishful for seeds or better a plant of Pasithea coerulea. This is a plant we've discussed a bit and is pictured on the wiki. I'd love to organize a trade for this plant from someone who grows it successfully. I have tried seed once, but bad climate coincidences did them in. Anyone grow it and have something to spare? Please write to me at jwaddick@kc.rr.com and we'll make a deal. That's number one of the list. Happy Holidays to all. Jim W. see http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki/index.php/Pasithea -- Dr. James W. Waddick 8871 NW Brostrom Rd. Kansas City Missouri 64152-2711 USA Ph. 816-746-1949 Zone 5 Record low -23F Summer 100F + ------------------------------ Message: 4 Date: Sun, 23 Dec 2007 10:21:10 -0800 From: Tim Harvey Subject: Re: [pbs] CITES II and Galanthus - Currently with APHIS To: Pacific Bulb Society Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Well maybe that's what is supposed to happen, but is absolutely not what has happened, as recently as the last three months. Has anyone ever been offered even the opportunity to obtain appropriate documents? I know of plants destroyed because of a simple typo the genus on the contents list, and "Nothing could be done". I even know of shipments that were supposedly returned but then all paperwork pertaining to the return was 'lost' along with the plants. It is hardly a system that inspires confidence. T> So what really happens?> When the plants are presented or discovered at the ports of entry in > the USA. Certain documents are necessary to allow those plants to > enter. As mentioned the Phyto is the most important document. For rare > plants, a CITES document. Because the US is currently busy funding a > freedom operation to the folks in the middle east, government > resources are limited and now importers myst pay a small fee for an > CITES import permit $70 which is every two years (don't be too > concerned- because in the very near future, the price will triple to > about $350 for all import permits- Thanks be to George).> If you don't have the documents- the government has to follow some > specific guidelines to process the plant material.> 1. the importer is provided 21 days to obtain the necessary documents > from the exporting country. The plants sit in a not so nice place > (usually depending of the plant inspection station it's as good as > they have) at least it's not anything like where the plants were > growing prior to being transported to the USA.> After this period of time, the importer should be contacted to verify > that they have produced the documents or the plants will be sent to > the country of export or to a rescue center.> Usually 15 days is the grace period for this.> If the importer fails to obtain the documents. USA will contact the > country of export and offer the material back to that country. The > exporting country must pay for freight costs only. 99% of the time > this is rejected. Then the plants are referred to Fish and Wildlife > who looks art the address of the importer and follows a list of > available rescue centers. They try to make the the rescue center NOT > the same as the address or State of the importer. Too many folks at > botanical gardens pulled fast ones and eventually the government > figured it out.> Then, now almost 60 days after the initial import into the USA, the > plants are off to a rescue center. They arrive often very tired and in > bad shape. Definitely not happy plants.> ------------------------------ Message: 5 Date: Sun, 23 Dec 2007 14:03:50 -0500 From: William Aley Subject: Re: [pbs] CITES II and Galanthus - Currently with APHIS To: Pacific Bulb Society Message-ID: <0E1603D6-24C4-4BEC-92EC-AA94BF1E94C8@mac.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes Well Tim, I can't say anything about your real life adventures but if you let me know the particulars, I'll contact the CITES Manager myself in the new year. Also anytime the Government makes mistake , you can at a minimum file for a Tort Claim. You may not get 100 % recovery, but you can reclaim lost $ for your effort. Every Tort Claim is investigated by OGC and creates motivation to change in the system. Remember it's your government, you can make the system work for you or you can sit back and wait for change to occur. Also CITES is not US law it is an international agreement. US adopts the CITES standards. Bill On Dec 23, 2007, at 1:21 PM, Tim Harvey wrote: > > Well maybe that's what is supposed to happen, but is absolutely not > what has happened, as recently as the last three months. > > Has anyone ever been offered even the opportunity to obtain > appropriate documents? I know of plants destroyed because of a > simple typo the genus on the contents list, and "Nothing could be > done". > > I even know of shipments that were supposedly returned but then all > paperwork pertaining to the return was 'lost' along with the plants. > > It is hardly a system that inspires confidence. > > T> So what really happens?> When the plants are presented or > discovered at the ports of entry in > the USA. Certain documents are > necessary to allow those plants to > enter. As mentioned the Phyto > is the most important document. For rare > plants, a CITES document. > Because the US is currently busy funding a > freedom operation to > the folks in the middle east, government > resources are limited and > now importers myst pay a small fee for an > CITES import permit $70 > which is every two years (don't be too > concerned- because in the > very near future, the price will triple to > about $350 for all > import permits- Thanks be to George).> If you don't have the > documents- the government has to follow some > specific guidelines > to process the plant material.> 1. the importer is provided 21 days > to obtain the necessary documents > from the exporting country. The > plants sit in a not so nice place > (usually depending of the plant > inspection station it's as good as > they have) at least > it's not anything like where the plants were > growing prior to > being transported to the USA.> After this period of time, the > importer should be contacted to verify > that they have produced the > documents or the plants will be sent to > the country of export or > to a rescue center.> Usually 15 days is the grace period for this.> > If the importer fails to obtain the documents. USA will contact the > > country of export and offer the material back to that country. The > > exporting country must pay for freight costs only. 99% of the time > > this is rejected. Then the plants are referred to Fish and > Wildlife > who looks art the address of the importer and follows a > list of > available rescue centers. They try to make the the rescue > center NOT > the same as the address or State of the importer. Too > many folks at > botanical gardens pulled fast ones and eventually > the government > figured it out.> Then, now almost 60 days after the > initial import into the USA, the > plants are off to a > rescue center. They arrive often very tired and in > bad shape. > Definitely not happy plants.> > _______________________________________________ > pbs mailing list > pbs@lists.ibiblio.org > http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php > http://pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki ------------------------------ Message: 6 Date: Sun, 23 Dec 2007 23:01:34 -0500 From: "Eugene Zielinski" Subject: Re: [pbs] Using proper (bird) names To: pbs@lists.ibiblio.org Message-ID: <380-2200712124413462@earthlink.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII No we don't. Scientific names are for ornithologists. Because there are relatively few species of birds (compared to plants), North American birders are able to use standardized English names. Jim McK used the term sparrow hawk in a recent e mail. While perfectly valid, this name is not the official name; the official name is American Kestrel. If you mentioned sparrow hawk, duck hawk, or pigeon hawk to a younger birder, he may not know what you're talking about. Mention American Kestrel, Peregrine Falcon, or Merlin, and he will (or should.) The American Ornithologists' Union determines the official North American names. There are a few checklists that establish English names for birds worldwide; the best known and most used is probably Clements. A few years back, the New World chickadees were split off from the Old World chickadees. Originally, both were in the genus Parus; the New World birds were put into the genus Poecile. The American birding community barely noticed. At about the same time, Oldsquaw was officially changed to Long-tailed Duck. This caused a minor ruckus. Incidentally, I've seen Northern-Beardless Tyrannulets, Masked Boobies, Golden-winged Warblers, and Yellow-bellied Sapsuckers -- and more. Gene Eugene Zielinski Augusta, GA USA > Message: 10 > Date: Sat, 22 Dec 2007 11:07:52 -0800 > From: Diane Whitehead > Subject: Re: [pbs] Using proper names > To: Pacific Bulb Society > > When I look at bird lists, there are wonderful common names: Golden > Spangled Whatevers, Northern Beardless-Tyrannulets. > > Do bird watchers ever use scientific names, or is it just us plant > folks? > > > > Diane Whitehead > > > > > ------------------------------ Message: 7 Date: Sun, 23 Dec 2007 20:06:33 -0800 (PST) From: piaba Subject: Re: [pbs] names To: Pacific Bulb Society Message-ID: <118481.84992.qm@web51905.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 > > What I find amusing in this discusion is that > nobody has commented on the > > subject header - and also, given the sensitivity > of spam filters, it has > > still got through with such a suggestive title. At > least its not trying to > > sell us viagra. or Hoodia. i wonder how many legitimate emails about Hoodia don't reach their destination... john, considering your email address is @virgin.net, yes, you should blush on reading about naked ladies... :-) is the concept of "cline" similar to a species complex? my big pet peeve about names is how we overuse certain names, such as "lily". we call everything a lily! i think even some ginger, in addition to Lillium, Zantedeschia, Convallaria, etc. ========= tsuh yang ____________________________________________________________________________ ________ Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ ------------------------------ Message: 8 Date: Sun, 23 Dec 2007 23:07:25 -0500 From: "Eugene Zielinski" Subject: [pbs] FW: Re: Using proper (bird) names To: "PBS E mail list" Message-ID: <380-22007121244725859@earthlink.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII No we don't. Scientific names are for ornithologists. Because there are relatively few species of birds (compared to plants), North American birders are able to use standardized English names. Jim McK used the term sparrow hawk in a recent e mail. While perfectly valid, this name is not the official name; the official name is American Kestrel. If you mentioned sparrow hawk, duck hawk, or pigeon hawk to a younger birder, he may not know what you're talking about. Mention American Kestrel, Peregrine Falcon, or Merlin, and he will (or should.) The American Ornithologists' Union determines the official North American names. There are a few checklists that establish English names for birds worldwide; the best known and most used is probably Clements. A few years back, the New World chickadees were split off from the Old World chickadees. Originally, both were in the genus Parus; the New World birds were put into the genus Poecile. The American birding community barely noticed. At about the same time, Oldsquaw was officially changed to Long-tailed Duck. This caused a minor ruckus. Incidentally, I've seen Northern-Beardless Tyrannulets, Masked Boobies, Golden-winged Warblers, and Yellow-bellied Sapsuckers -- and more. Gene Eugene Zielinski Augusta, GA USA > Message: 10 > Date: Sat, 22 Dec 2007 11:07:52 -0800 > From: Diane Whitehead > Subject: Re: [pbs] Using proper names > To: Pacific Bulb Society > > When I look at bird lists, there are wonderful common names: Golden > Spangled Whatevers, Northern Beardless-Tyrannulets. > > Do bird watchers ever use scientific names, or is it just us plant > folks? > > > > Diane Whitehead > ------------------------------ Message: 9 Date: Sun, 23 Dec 2007 21:04:35 -0800 (PST) From: piaba Subject: Re: [pbs] Using proper names To: Pacific Bulb Society Message-ID: <757732.44637.qm@web51901.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 > Their blackbird is a member of the thrush family, > Turdidae and is very > closely related (same genus) to our robin. Our > blackbirds (the name is > applied to several species of several genera) are > placed in the Icteridae. funny you should mention that. just this week i was at a restaurant, and they had "blackfish" in the menu. i thought to myself, which one? ========= tsuh yang ____________________________________________________________________________ ________ Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your home page. http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs ------------------------------ Message: 10 Date: Mon, 24 Dec 2007 11:48:42 -0800 From: Marguerite English Subject: [pbs] Best wishes. To: Pacific Bulb Society Message-ID: <47700D1A.9060809@meenglis.cts.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed And to all of you this holiday. Please have a lovely Christmas season and a bulb-filled new year! Marguerite ------------------------------ Message: 11 Date: Mon, 24 Dec 2007 12:57:04 -0800 From: Douglas Westfall Subject: Re: [pbs] Merry Christmas To: Pacific Bulb Society Message-ID: <85A373E0-AF9D-47B1-9603-779C32733A73@flash.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes To ALL PBS members, have a wonderful Christmas and a happy,sober New Year. May all your Haemanthus, Scadoxus, and Hippeastrum have their best year ever! (I already have H. aulicum and H. papilio blooming. Doug Westfall In Long Beach,California ------------------------------ Message: 12 Date: Tue, 25 Dec 2007 09:39:28 +1100 From: "Paul T." Subject: Re: [pbs] Merry Christmas To: Pacific Bulb Society Message-ID: <6a9ms5$7j7lhu@outbound.icp-qv1-irony-out1.iinet.net.au> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed At 07:57 AM 25/12/2007, you wrote: >To ALL PBS members, have a wonderful Christmas and a happy,sober New >Year. May all your Haemanthus, Scadoxus, and Hippeastrum have their >best year ever! (I already have H. aulicum and H. papilio blooming. Doug et al, Thanks for the best wishes everyone. Here's some more, this time from Australia. Have a most excellent Silly Season everyone, and may 2008 hold everything you want it to and much more!! Thanks to everyone for their wonderful help and sharing of knowledge in 2007. All the very best. Cheers. Paul T. Canberra, Australia (where it is 9:30am on Christmas morning!!) ------------------------------ _______________________________________________ pbs mailing list pbs@lists.ibiblio.org http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php End of pbs Digest, Vol 59, Issue 14 *********************************** From butterflyamaryllis@yahoo.com Mon Dec 24 19:27:51 2007 Message-Id: <306025.28484.qm@web33910.mail.mud.yahoo.com> From: James Frelichowski Subject: Xmas Date: Mon, 24 Dec 2007 16:27:51 -0800 (PST) Wesolych Swiat & Szczesliwego Nowego Roku I think that is right (I googled for the Polish translation) Merry Xmas and Happy New Year! James Frelichowski College Station, TX --------------------------------- Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. From ixia@dcsi.net.au Mon Dec 24 20:06:10 2007 Message-Id: <20071225010356.M11577@dcsi.net.au> From: "Richardson Bill" Subject: Merry Christmas Date: Tue, 25 Dec 2007 12:06:07 +1100 Hi Paul et al, wishing everyone a wonderful Christmas and New Year from beautiful Gippsland where it is rainy but nice with some hot summer days on the way. Bill in Oz regards, Bill Richardson Ixiaking -- Open WebMail Project (http://openwebmail.org) ---------- Original Message ----------- From: "Paul T." To: Pacific Bulb Society Sent: Tue, 25 Dec 2007 09:39:28 +1100 Subject: Re: [pbs] Merry Christmas > At 07:57 AM 25/12/2007, you wrote: > >To ALL PBS members, have a wonderful Christmas and a happy,sober New > >Year. May all your Haemanthus, Scadoxus, and Hippeastrum have their > >best year ever! (I already have H. aulicum and H. papilio blooming. > > Doug et al, > > Thanks for the best wishes everyone. Here's some more, this time > from Australia. Have a most excellent Silly Season everyone, and > may 2008 hold everything you want it to and much more!! Thanks to > everyone for their wonderful help and sharing of knowledge in 2007. > > All the very best. > > Cheers. > > Paul T. > Canberra, Australia (where it is 9:30am on Christmas morning!!) > > _______________________________________________ > pbs mailing list > pbs@lists.ibiblio.org > http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php > http://pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki ------- End of Original Message ------- From antoine.hoog@tele2.fr Tue Dec 25 09:56:52 2007 Message-Id: From: "Antoine HOOG" Subject: 12 Christmas-flowering bulbs Date: Tue, 25 Dec 2007 15:56:43 +0100 Dear PBS friends, Wishing you a Merry Christmas from Brittany, France, where it is now raining hard. From 14th until 20th December we have had moderate frosts, with temperatures falling to minus 6 Celsius in the polythene tunnel during 4 nights. On Christmas Eve I looked around the garden to see which flowers had escaped damage from the frosts and what would be in flower for Christmas this year. Obviously most flowering bulbs at this time of year are grown under glass or polythene. These are the following: There are some remaining flowers on Colchicum cupanii, this one originally from near Heraklion, Crete; flowering now is Colchicum asteranthum, a very small species from the Peloponnese; Colchicum brachyphyllum and Colchicum falcifolium both from S. Turkey are starting to flower; the first is an old Ole Sönderhausen collection near Gaziantep, the latter by Eduard Hanslik near Konya at 1700m. Colchicum falcifolium somewhat resembles C. triphyllum with its wonderful rose, campanulate flowers. Unfortunately they are both extremely slow to increase and we never been able to share any of these. A few Crocus laevigatus CEH.612 are still flowering, as are white Crocus laevigatus from Crete. Crocus michelsonii is in early flower and is looking in character due to the low temperatures. Last year temperatures were high with low light levels and the flowers got drawn. Narcissus cantabricus ssp. monophyllus from Andalusia, Spain is starting to flower and also a taller form of this species we received from the UK without details. Galanthus reginae-olgae from the Peloponnese was flowering here in October-November and has now finished. Also from the Peloponnese is its subspecies , G. reginae-olgae ssp. vernalis of Kamari. At least this is the name that I have for it up to now. A reference to mid-winter would have been more appropriate than one pertaining to spring. It is differing from ssp. reginae-olgae in the later flowering period, a taller and very straight flower stem and a flower which appears to be particularly white. The foliage is appearing considerably later than in the type. I see no reason to discuss the silvery-white central stripe on the leaves of ssp. vernalis when this feature is present to the same extent in ssp. reginae-olgae. Galanthus peshmenii has been flowering already over a month and still is. This occurs near Antalya in S Turkey and has been found up to 650m alt. Turning to outdoors I can list early flower of Galanthus elwesii ssp. monostictus in its clone from ‘Highdown’ and one selected from wild G. elwesii imported in the 1980’s. Sir Frederic Stern called this G. caucasicus var. hiemalis, but the name G. causicus belongs to a different species. Nowadays the Galanthus from Sicily is treated as a form of G. nivalis. We received it as G. imperati and is recognized mainly by its early flowering season. The first flowers have now opened. We also have another clone of G. nivalis now in flower, we may eventually offer as ‘Christmas Wish’, provided the name still is available. The flowers of Crocus niveus alas were frosted to 90%. Few flowers remain on the plants which now rapidly are producing the foliage. These unopened flowers may stay firm but closed for several weeks at this time of the year, when light intensity and temperature are too low for them. Not bulbous, but flowering as well are Helleborus cyclophyllus, an early form from Mt. Pilion in Greece, H. lividus from Mallorca (no frost damage!) and an early form of wild Helleborus orientalis from the Caucasus, near Tbilisi. Happy gardening in 2008. Antoine Hoog USDA Zone 7 Average low: -8ºC Le Houx 22150 PLEMY France antoine.hoog@tele2.fr From j.grimshaw@virgin.net Tue Dec 25 14:28:30 2007 Message-Id: <006e01c8472c$4e667610$0201a8c0@John> From: "John Grimshaw" Subject: 12 Christmas-flowering bulbs Date: Tue, 25 Dec 2007 19:28:18 -0000 Antoine Hoog wrote: I see no reason to discuss the silvery-white central stripe on the leaves of ssp. vernalis when this feature is present to the same extent in ssp. reginae-olgae. This is absolutely true, but the interest in the grey stripe is that its presence separates Galanthus reginae-olgae from G. nivalis. We do not really know enough about the interface between the two taxa in the Balkans - I would love to be able tro go about and explore the early snowdrops to try to clarify in my mind at least how these things differ. In my own garden today Galanthus plicatus 'Three Ships' and G. elwesii 'Potter's Prelude' are flowering nicely. John Grimshaw Dr John M. Grimshaw Sycamore Cottage Colesbourne Nr Cheltenham Gloucestershire GL53 9NP COLESBOURNE PARK SNOWDROP OPEN DAYS 2008 January 26/27 and every Saturday & Sunday in February Gates open 1pm, last entry 4 pm website: www.colesbournegardens.org.uk From jimmckenney@jimmckenney.com Tue Dec 25 18:44:32 2007 Message-Id: <000e01c84750$546e4e10$2f01a8c0@Library> From: "Jim McKenney" Subject: 12 Christmas-flowering bulbs Date: Tue, 25 Dec 2007 18:46:10 -0500 I certainly can't match for either quality or quantity the handsome Christmas list posted by Antoine Hoog, but we do have some nice things happening here in Maryland, USA. For instance, Crocus longiflorus continues to bloom and provide delicious fragrance. Other crocuses in bloom include C. ochroleucus and the white-flowered form of Crocus cartwrightianus mentioned in several of my recent posts. Crocus hermoneus and C. goulimyi were in bloom until a few days ago. As mentioned in an earlier post, there has been no sign of bloom from any of several different accessions of Crocus laevigatus. All of these crocuses grow in a cold frame, but it's a cold frame which has been closed only rarely so far this season. There is also no activity on the snowdrop front here. The biggest pleasure here comes from a plant which, depending on where you garden, will be either something to be taken for granted or something so unlikely as to be hardly taken into consideration. But here in the suburbs north of Washington, D.C. most of us still regard it as a wonder and something to be cherished. I'm speaking of the Algerian iris, Iris unguicularis. Say what you might, but there is little in our local horticultural history to suggest that we are Algerian iris country. The plant is hardly known in this area as a garden plant. "Everyone" who has read British gardening books from the time Gertrude Jekyll told the story of the discovery of a white-flowered form a century ago to the present knows the plant and wants it. I tried it decades ago, and although the plants grew well, they never, not even once, succeeded in maturing a blossom. I gave up on it. Two years ago another local gardener who had a similar experience gave up on it, dug his plant and distributed the pieces to members of our local rock garden group. Although I was not the only person to take a piece, as far as I'm aware my plant is the only one which has dug in, made itself at home and bloomed freely. This year it has been in bloom constantly since some time in November. That such large flowers appear at this season continues to amaze me. When I checked it late this morning a new, fresh, large bloom had opened to greet me. This plant is not in one of my cold frames: it grows exposed to the open air, placed right against the wall of the house and with a southwest exposure. It must be beginner's luck, but whatever the reason it's making me very happy. Season's Greetings, Everyone! Jim McKenney jimmckenney@jimmckenney.com Montgomery County, Maryland, USA, USDA zone 7, where wintersweet is swelling its buds and Camellia sasanqua continues to bloom. My Virtual Maryland Garden http://www.jimmckenney.com BLOG! http://mcwort.blogspot.com/ Webmaster Potomac Valley Chapter, NARGS Editor PVC Bulletin http://www.pvcnargs.org Webmaster Potomac Lily Society http://www.potomaclilysociety.org From msittner@mcn.org Tue Dec 25 22:10:39 2007 Message-Id: <5.2.0.9.2.20071225184505.03484068@mail.mcn.org> From: Mary Sue Ittner Subject: 12 Christmas-flowering bulbs Date: Tue, 25 Dec 2007 19:10:12 -0800 Hi, Frost on the roof this morning and today was clear and cool. I surveyed the garden to see which bulbs were in bloom. Here's my report. There are a lot of Cyclamen coum pots with different leaves and flowers in bloom and at least one in the ground. Narcissus cantabricus has been in bloom for months and some were still blooming today. Narcissus romieuxii has been in bloom for about a week and one Narcissus fernandesii which is obviously confused. I still have Oxalis in bloom or mostly in bloom since it was a little cool for them to open fully: Oxalis purpurea, O. versicolor, several forms of O. luteola, O. glabra, O. convexula, the first O. obtusa, and O. namaquana, a lovely mass of bright yellow. Lachenalia viridiflora, bulbifera, and aloides v. quadricolor are blooming in the ground, in pots in my open on the sides shelter, and in raised beds. At least one group of Moraea polystachya is still in bloom and Hesperantha latifolia. I have two Romuleas blooming, a bulbocodium and R. discifera which is blooming for the first year for me. I cheated a little on it as I brought it into the house where it was warmer so it would open and was rewarded when we returned from a long walk to see the bright yellow flowers glowing. Massonia jasminiflora is blooming and Massonia depressa is blooming again this year. The leaves are even bigger this year so it looks like it next year I need to plant one to a pot. I've had various Polyxenas blooming (I'm still calling them this instead of Lachenalia) and there was a Polyxena ensifolia still in bloom today. There is a Delphinium that seeded itself in a Cyclamen pot that looks like a hybrid between D. nudicaule and D. luteum in bloom as well. In the greenhouse Cyrthathus mackenii is blooming (white, pink, light coral): Haemanthus deformis and H. paucifolius are still giving me pleasure, and a very large Canarina canariensis with its orange bells. Brunsvigia grandiflora is in the last stages outside, but everyone who has visited my house this holiday season has admired it. Like Jim McKenney I love Iris unguicularis, a gift from my friend Jana Ulmer. Mine is a lovely blue and for weeks it has been sending up flowers. Some days there have been quite a few. Happy Holidays everyone. Mary Sue From eagle85@flash.net Wed Dec 26 12:27:41 2007 Message-Id: <5C350805-A4F3-439C-AE83-B895E47B12F3@flash.net> From: Douglas Westfall Subject: 12 Christmas-flowering bulbs Date: Wed, 26 Dec 2007 09:27:39 -0800 Mary Sue, Your yard must be beautiful! '' Here in S. Calif, I have Haemanthus deformus, H. humilis. H. pauculifolius, H. albiflos (narrow leaf form),Scadoxus membranaceus, and S. natalensis all blooming at this time. Just opening this morning is Hippeastrum aulicum and H. papilio has two spikes about five inches tall. We have had a terrible (HOT) summer, but the recent rains have given us the promise of a great spring. With a wish for a wonderful Spring to come. Doug Westfall From jwaddick@kc.rr.com Wed Dec 26 15:06:13 2007 Message-Id: From: James Waddick Subject: 12 Christmas-flowering bulbs Date: Wed, 26 Dec 2007 12:57:19 -0600 Dear Mr Hoog, What excellent medication for improving the view out my window: ice, snow and more falling in flakes/drops almost too tiny to identify. The few similar items in my garden will hopefully bloom in a few months, but right now we are weeks from signs of spring. I love the descriptions of Crocus, Galanthus and Colchicum putting on their show now. Not nearly enough of us can grow and appreciate a winter garden. Forget visions of sugar plums, give me more early spring visions. Even Jim McK's I unguiculares makes me jealous. I've got to try it here again now that global warming may allow it to bloom 'somewhere' ! Mary Sue's explosion of color sounds positively super. Of course Doug's sub-tropical garden is what northerns always suspect - bloom of exotics any time and always something. It does show the range of flowers and bulbs we grow. The only showy item in my cool greenhouse is a pot of Tulbaghia simmleri from the late Dave Karnstedt. We traded my white for his typical lavender. Of course my white form isn't blooming, but Dave's has a half dozen stalks and more developing. A sweet memory and show of color. After a cold and over frozen spring last year, I wish all a mild spring and best gardening ever for the New Year. Best Jim W. -- Dr. James W. Waddick 8871 NW Brostrom Rd. Kansas City Missouri 64152-2711 USA Ph. 816-746-1949 Zone 5 Record low -23F Summer 100F + From dells@voicenet.com Wed Dec 26 16:02:06 2007 Message-Id: <20071226210205.D958E4C017@lists.ibiblio.org> From: "Dell Sherk" Subject: 12 Christmas-flowering bulbs Date: Wed, 26 Dec 2007 16:01:55 -0500 Dear All, To add to this thread, I can report nothing in bloom outside except a confused Viburnum x carlesii that is putting out some anemic blooms because it thinks it lives in Tahiti. Indoors, I have a lovely little white Tulbaghia that never stops blooming. It came from a BX donation. Also, there are a couple of blooms on Leucojum roseum. This pretty thing was on my list of most desired bulbs, and Diana Chapman kindly sent me some. So I am especially glad to have it bloom and hope that I don't kill it this time. Two cyrtanthus are also beginning to bloom: C. breviflorus and C.mackenii, yellow. The others in the C. mackenii, o'brienii, brachyschyphus group usually start blooming about now too. Happy holidays, Dell -----Original Message----- From: pbs-bounces@lists.ibiblio.org [mailto:pbs-bounces@lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf Of James Waddick Sent: Wednesday, December 26, 2007 1:57 PM To: Pacific Bulb Society Subject: Re: [pbs] 12 Christmas-flowering bulbs Dear Mr Hoog, What excellent medication for improving the view out my window: ice, snow and more falling in flakes/drops almost too tiny to identify. The few similar items in my garden will hopefully bloom in a few months, but right now we are weeks from signs of spring. I love the descriptions of Crocus, Galanthus and Colchicum putting on their show now. Not nearly enough of us can grow and appreciate a winter garden. Forget visions of sugar plums, give me more early spring visions. Even Jim McK's I unguiculares makes me jealous. I've got to try it here again now that global warming may allow it to bloom 'somewhere' ! Mary Sue's explosion of color sounds positively super. Of course Doug's sub-tropical garden is what northerns always suspect - bloom of exotics any time and always something. It does show the range of flowers and bulbs we grow. The only showy item in my cool greenhouse is a pot of Tulbaghia simmleri from the late Dave Karnstedt. We traded my white for his typical lavender. Of course my white form isn't blooming, but Dave's has a half dozen stalks and more developing. A sweet memory and show of color. After a cold and over frozen spring last year, I wish all a mild spring and best gardening ever for the New Year. Best Jim W. -- Dr. James W. Waddick 8871 NW Brostrom Rd. Kansas City Missouri 64152-2711 USA Ph. 816-746-1949 Zone 5 Record low -23F Summer 100F + _______________________________________________ pbs mailing list pbs@lists.ibiblio.org http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php http://pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki From leo@possi.org Wed Dec 26 18:11:35 2007 Message-Id: <32611.209.180.132.162.1198710643.squirrel@www.possi.org> From: "Leo A. Martin" Subject: Massonia pollination Date: Wed, 26 Dec 2007 16:10:43 -0700 (MST) Jim Shields wrote > .... > I tried to cross pollinate the two individual clones of [Massonia] > depressa that I have, so maybe there will be some seeds for Dell > to distribute in a few months.... I and several friends here in Phoenix have obtained fertile seed from solitary Massonias of species depressa, pustulata, and "sp." That is, only one Massonia blooming in the entire garden at that time. No signs of wild gerbils nibbling the flowers. What about the rest of you on the list? I haven't really had enough to send to the seed bank or I would have. Leo Martin Phoenix Arizona USA From leo@possi.org Wed Dec 26 18:13:46 2007 Message-Id: <32823.209.180.132.162.1198710773.squirrel@www.possi.org> From: "Leo A. Martin" Subject: Massonia pollination Date: Wed, 26 Dec 2007 16:12:53 -0700 (MST) By the way, if you plant a Massonia bulb in a 1-gallon pot you will soon have a plant with dinner-plate sized leaves. Leo Martin Phoenix Arizona USA From markmazerandfm13@earthlink.net Wed Dec 26 18:41:08 2007 Message-Id: <15842435.1198712468595.JavaMail.root@elwamui-cypress.atl.sa.earthlink.net> From: Mark Mazer Subject: Massonia pollination Date: Wed, 26 Dec 2007 18:41:08 -0500 (GMT-05:00) . No signs of wild >gerbils nibbling the flowers. What about the rest of you on the list? I have pollinated solitary M. depressa simply by emulating the snout of a gerbil with my fingertips. One year M. depressa was pollinated by mice in the greenhouse as evidenced by the profusion of droppings. Several flats of M. pustulata are in bloom at this time but M. depressa is only in bud. Mark Mazer Hertford, NC From brian.whyer@btinternet.com Wed Dec 26 18:53:51 2007 Message-Id: <33805.47998.qm@web86306.mail.ird.yahoo.com> From: BRIAN WHYER Subject: Massonia pollination Date: Wed, 26 Dec 2007 23:53:49 +0000 (GMT) I am not sure how big a gallon (US) size pot is, but in my limited experience of Massonias the top surface area is more important than the volume, and as the dinner plates are side by side they can need a flat surface almost 18" wide to appreciate them best, otherwise they wrap themselves around the pot as they grow. Now if only I could tell which way the two leaves would come up I could orientate a long wide plant container correctly. Plunging a round pot as they start to enlarge is my best attempt yet, as you can swivel it to align the leaves and keep them flat in a "window box" type container. How should I feed Massonia? I assume that they come from naturally deficient soils so am reluctant to feed too often, and they need little water in winter here so I have few chances anyway. If I am unable to plant out, is a large oversized pot of poorish slow feed compost the best compromise, with an occasional high potash feed? The 2" wide flower head of 1 of my M. pustulata was at its best a week ago. I have never had any seed from it in past years. Is there any special way of inducing seed for this plant? Brian Whyer, Buckinghamshire, England, zone ~8 "Leo A. Martin" wrote: By the way, if you plant a Massonia bulb in a 1-gallon pot you will soon have a plant with dinner-plate sized leaves. Leo Martin Phoenix Arizona USA _______________________________________________ pbs mailing list pbs@lists.ibiblio.org http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php http://pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki From eagle85@flash.net Wed Dec 26 18:59:46 2007 Message-Id: <4C76FD7D-9B46-467D-B647-9DD1D5DDA598@flash.net> From: Douglas Westfall Subject: Massonia pollination Date: Wed, 26 Dec 2007 15:59:44 -0800 M. pustulata are in bloom at this time but M. depressa is only in bud. Mark Mazer, That is just where I am here in California. I should have some seed to share later as I have had seed in the past. Doug From rherold@yahoo.com Wed Dec 26 22:43:42 2007 Message-Id: <47731F6D.9040304@yahoo.com> From: Roy Herold Subject: Massonia pollination Date: Wed, 26 Dec 2007 22:43:41 -0500 Ah, what a fine time to bring up the subject of Massonia, one of my favorite genera of bulbs (I think I got that right). Just this past weekend I was going around reading keys to Massonia, measuring lengths of flower parts, and becoming more and more confused. I'm now up to about a dozen different accessions of Massonia, three of which are blooming now and the rest are waiting in the wings (and visions of Daubenya still dance in my head). Regarding pollination, I have never had any problem with getting excellent seed set on my two warhorses (or is it brood mares), M. pustulata, originally from Richard Doutt and Bioquest (wasn't that a great catalog?), and M. depressa (but closer to pustulata) from a NARGS seedex. I have never gone in and done any tickling, but usually can delight in the sight of giant seedhead erupting from the withering leaves in the spring. These tend to have enough seed to send to every society I belong to, and then some. Regarding rodents, I always leave my Massonias outdoors in the fall until the first frosts. This year for the first time the chipmunks took a liking to them, even before the flowers opened. Doutt's pustulata fared the worst, with big hunks chewed out of the leaves. No damage to the bud, fortunately. The M. aff depressa-pustulata also got a few nibbles. After I moved them into the greenouse, the mice took over, leaving discrete droppings on the leaves but doing no additional damage. The mouse traps did their trick shortly thereafter. As for ID's, I continue to be confused. The pustulata and depressa-pustulata have similar flowers, but start blooming a couple of weeks apart. Seedling yearlings emerged this fall with a similar separation. The yearling pustulatas had pustules, the pustula-depressas were still smooth. Some echinata seedlings are blooming for the first time this year, but the flowers are leaning towards depressa. These came from Mesa Gardens seed. Bloom time seems to be between pustulata and pustulata-depressa. I can hardly wait for some of the others to come along, including the "shimmering silk stocking leaves" ex Rust en Vrede Nursery and the "bewitching perfume" ex Addo (love Steve Hammer's descriptions). And there are more from Steve, Mark M., MSI, and others. I agree with Brian's assessment of the need for a large pot surface area for the leaves, but wonder a bit about the need for such a large volume for the bulbs and roots. I was very surprised this season to find leaves just as large on 3" sq. pots as on 6" sq. pots. Lean and mean, etc. Just keep some neigboring pots, and the leaves don't curl over the edge. I also think I'm starting to pick up on the best watering routine for massonias. Happy, turgid leaves are pressed against the surface of the soil, almost as if there was a magnet underground and the leaves were steel (weird analogy, but it works for me). When the magnets get weak, and the leaves can easily be lifted, it's time to water. Put the pot in a dish of water, let it soak for a day, and everything should be good to go for another month (in a cold greenhouse, below 40F at night). One of the high points of my visit to South Africa in November 06 was an unexpected Massonia encounter. I was searching for Euphorbia horrida alongside the N9 near Uniondale, and THERE IT WAS! No, not Euphorbia, but the wonderful tumbleweed-like seedpod of a MASSONIA, with the mother bulb nowhere to be found. I think I managed to salvage two seeds from the pods, and I'm still trying to figure out what I did with them. Probably mixed in with the haworthia seed. I collected some albuca-ish seed from the same spot, and have a bulging pot of seedlings from them. I continue to lust after M. jasminiflora, and home that Mary Sue gets some seeds. Another massonial object of desire is the little guys up on Sani Pass. Will Rachel *ever* list them again? I should have plenty of seed (if the massonia gods are willing) and bulbs for the BX next summer. If any other PBSers would like to do some swapping under the table, let me know. --Roy NW of Boston Good snow cover for the past week. Global warming is dead this year. Leo A. Martin wrote: > Jim Shields wrote > >> .... >> I tried to cross pollinate the two individual clones of [Massonia] >> depressa that I have, so maybe there will be some seeds for Dell >> to distribute in a few months.... > > I and several friends here in Phoenix have obtained fertile seed from > solitary Massonias of species depressa, pustulata, and "sp." That is, only > one Massonia blooming in the entire garden at that time. No signs of wild > gerbils nibbling the flowers. What about the rest of you on the list? > > I haven't really had enough to send to the seed bank or I would have. > > Leo Martin > Phoenix Arizona USA > > _______________________________________________ > pbs mailing list > pbs@lists.ibiblio.org > http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php > http://pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki From msittner@mcn.org Thu Dec 27 00:17:05 2007 Message-Id: <5.2.0.9.2.20071226205713.0357b1b8@mail.mcn.org> From: Mary Sue Ittner Subject: Massonia pollination and resource for Massonia/Daubneya Date: Wed, 26 Dec 2007 21:16:40 -0800 Hi, I usually get seed of Massonia pustulata and M. echinata without any trouble as I have pollinators. I even photographed one this year as it was going from tiny flower to tiny flower. We'll see about M. jasminiflora. I tried it from seed multiple times and never got any to germinate (tried several sources) after admiring it at Rhoda and Cameron's. I finally purchased some from Gordon Summerfield in South Africa and finally got it turned around to my hemisphere. I really like it. Massonia depressa flowers are really different because of the nectar that attracts the gerbil. I don't think you could confuse them with M. echinata. Look at my picture on the wiki. Plus the leaves are gigantic. Arnold alerted me that Paul Cumbleton has some amazing pictures on the Wisley Alpine Log on the Scottish Rock Garden site. If you are interested in Massonia and Daubenya you will want to look at them and then you will want to order lots of seed in hopes you can get the different variations. I've got it on my list to link them to our wiki pages for Daubenya and Massonia. I also have some great Massonia pictures from Alan Horstmann. I'll try to add them and a couple of my own in the next couple of days. http://www.srgc.org.uk/wisley/2007/071107/log.html. http://www.srgc.org.uk/wisley/2007/221107/log.html Mary Sue From leo@possi.org Thu Dec 27 19:47:41 2007 Message-Id: <62145.209.180.132.162.1198802766.squirrel@www.possi.org> From: "Leo A. Martin" Subject: Massonia pollination Date: Thu, 27 Dec 2007 17:46:06 -0700 (MST) Brian wrote > How should I feed Massonia? I assume that they come from naturally > deficient soils so am reluctant to feed too often, and they need little > water in winter here so I have few chances anyway. Mine have grown fine without feedings, planted in my local soil, which is derived from weathered granite. It might be interesting to see how big they get with overfeeding. I haven't used soilless composts; if you are using such I would think you should feed, but I have no experience with that. and then > The 2" wide flower head of 1 of my M. pustulata was at its best a week > ago. I have never had any seed from it in past years. Is there any > special way of inducing seed for this plant? Try a small paintbrush. Pick up the pollen from the anthers and deposit it on the pistils. The two organs look similar from a distance, but the pistils clearly have no anthers. Do this when it is as dry as possible because the pollen is easier to handle then. If you are growing them in a glasshouse, harvest the seedheads when fully dry. If outside take precautions to prevent them from blowing away. To remove seeds from the seedhead, just tap and shake them gently over a large white serving dish or large piece of white paper. Leo Martin Phoenix Arizona USA From robertwerra@pacific.net Thu Dec 27 20:26:27 2007 Message-Id: <000f01c848f0$a4e103a0$ba296ad0@popbob> From: Subject: Christmas Gladioli Date: Thu, 27 Dec 2007 17:26:17 -0800 Two frost resistant gladioli are blooming in my inland Calif. gardem this Chrisymas. They are winter growing So. Africans. They sprout just after the first good fall rains in Oct. By early Dec. large buds form and by mid Dec. gorgeous scarlet and white 2 in. blossoms unfurl and last through Christmas. I will send pictures to Mary Sue as I am wiki Illiterate. Thay are joned by Gl. priori smaller orange red blooming clusters on Christmas eve. Merry Christmas and Happy New Year. Bob Werra From marie-paule.opdenakker@pandora.be Thu Dec 27 20:39:57 2007 Message-Id: <000001c848f2$8c477d40$a4d677c0$@opdenakker@pandora.be> From: "Marie-Paule" Subject: Massonia jasminiflora Date: Fri, 28 Dec 2007 02:39:54 +0100 Hello, bulb friends, First I wish You all a very healthy and happy New-Year, and good luck with Your bulbs. I read all the e-mails but respond not often, sorry for that, because my English is not that good. My question is where can I find the massonia jasminiflora, I have googled a lot but don't find it anywhere for sale. Kind Regards, Marie-Paule Belgium From jegrace@rose.net Thu Dec 27 21:33:24 2007 Message-Id: <1198809204_34395@mail.rose.net> From: "jegrace" Subject: Massonia pollination and resource for Massonia/Daubneya Date: Thu, 27 Dec 2007 21:33:19 -0500 I had never even heard of Massonia before reading the recent posts. Now after reading them and doing some research I realize that they are beautiful, unusual plants that I must own. Does that sound familiar? I will add another plant to my wish list....... Thank you for sharing information, as always I learn so much from this forum and the generous people who are members! Best wishes, Erin Grace Thomasville, Georgia, USA From zigur@hotmail.com Fri Dec 28 00:38:27 2007 Message-Id: From: Tim Harvey Subject: Massonia jasminiflora Date: Thu, 27 Dec 2007 21:38:26 -0800 I belive Penroc offers seed and bulbs, though you might want to get a sizeable order ready - http://www.penroc.co.za/ T> From: marie-paule.opdenakker@pandora.be> To: pbs@lists.ibiblio.org> Date: Fri, 28 Dec 2007 02:39:54 +0100> Subject: [pbs] Massonia jasminiflora> > Hello, bulb friends,> > First I wish You all a very healthy and happy New-Year, and good luck with> Your bulbs.> > I read all the e-mails but respond not often, sorry for that, because my> English is not that good.> > My question is where can I find the massonia jasminiflora, I have googled a> lot but don't find it anywhere for sale.> > Kind Regards,> > Marie-Paule> > Belgium> > > > _______________________________________________> pbs mailing list> pbs@lists.ibiblio.org> http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php> http://pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki From contact@bulbargence.com Fri Dec 28 03:55:35 2007 Message-Id: From: "contact" Subject: 12 Christmas-flowering bulbs Date: Fri, 28 Dec 2007 09:55:29 +0100 Dear all; Here below the message via our website; To all our friends customers and visitors a Merry Christmas. In December we finished mulching all our plantings with compost or straw and now all is in a peaceful winterrest. We had several frosts, but no serious damage was caused. Many species are in flower over Christmas: The Nerines survived the frosts, but the main shows comes from the Narcissus tazetta, Iris unguicularis, the last Crocus, Moraea polystachya (since Octobre), Oxalis, Cyclamen pseudibericum and coum, Galanthus elwesii. Anemone coronaria surprises every winter with an very long flowering period. (Decembre -April). Unfortunately the spectacular Dahlia imperialis is absent this year (scorched by a frost -5° on the 19th of November), but she will be back next year. I would like to add that there is a very nice bunch of Narissus romieuxii in flower (gift from Audrey Caine a few years ago). A very attractive Christmas flower is Androcymbium ciliation which lasts for at least two months. (flowers well hidden in large creamy-green bracts) All species mentioned are grown in the ground (some under shadecloth) subject to frequent but light night frosts. Allready my best wishes for the New year Lauw de Jager South of France (this moring sunny with temps around 0°) www.bulbargence.com From msittner@mcn.org Fri Dec 28 11:30:51 2007 Message-Id: <5.2.0.9.2.20071228075256.0347de78@mail.mcn.org> From: Mary Sue Ittner Subject: Wiki additions -- Massonia, Haemanthus, Dietes, Chamaescilla Date: Fri, 28 Dec 2007 08:29:33 -0800 Hi, I'm never sure if I should keep announcing wiki additions since I almost never get any feedback to know if anyone does more than delete the post. So perhaps people who care should write me privately and I could just have a short list I could send an announcement to. I know some of the others who add pictures have stopped telling people about their additions for the same reason. I just added some more Massonia pictures to the wiki. I also looked up the key in the Cape Encyclopedia and see that it is the stamens that are the distinguishing factors in telling the species apart. Massonia depressa has anthers that are more than 2mm. M. pygmaea besides being smaller has filaments of two lengths. Massonia pustulata has filaments longer than 10 mm (to 24mm.) and Massonia echinata 10 mm or less. So it looks like you need to measure to be sure of what you have. I went out and looked at my M. depressa and the anthers really are bigger. You can't see these subtle differences in pictures. Photos added: Massonia depressa from Cameron McMaster, Massonia echinata from Alan Horstmann (an unusual color) and pustulate, Massonia jasminiflora from me and now blooming, Massonia pustulata being pollinated (sorry these pictures aren't clearer, I had very little time to get a tripod or even be sure of my settings, but was fascinated watching the pollinator go from anther to anther), Massonia pustulata from Cameron, and finally Massonia pygmaea from Alan. http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki/index.php/Massonia I also added a few more Haemanthus pictures a couple of days ago. The first is of a hybrid I believe. Doug Westfall sent me seed of H. albiflos and one of the seedlings was distinctly different. http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki/index.php/HaemanthusSpeciesTwo#hybrid And I added pictures of H. pauculifolius now blooming for awhile in my greenhouse. I obtained this from Telos a number of years ago, but this is the first time it has bloomed and I quite like it. http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki/index.php/HaemanthusSpeciesThree#pauculifolius I also added a picture of an additional Dietes species that we saw in the Royal Botanical Gardens in Sydney. This species, Dietes robinsoniana, is native to Cape Howe Island, an island off Australia. I added an additional picture from Alan Horstmann of Dietes bicolor at the same time. http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki/index.php/Dietes Finally about a week ago I added a wiki page for Chamaescilla http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki/index.php/Chamaescilla This is an Australian genus with blue flowers. It's a charming little plant we saw a number of times when we visited in September. It is not in the Hyacinth family, but in the Anthericaceae family along with some other Australian plants with the unusual root system that annually grows tuberous roots from a cormlike stem. This family has been included in Agavaceae or optionally Asparagaceae by APG II. Since Hyacinthaceae is also optionally included in Asparagaceae that is one way genera with blue flowers that have scilla in the name can be together. Mary Sue From tiede@pacbell.net Fri Dec 28 11:59:35 2007 Message-Id: <066a01c84972$c1ef3d40$026fa8c0@EDEN> From: "Bracey Tiede" Subject: Wiki additions -- Massonia, Haemanthus, Dietes, Chamaescilla Date: Fri, 28 Dec 2007 08:57:38 -0800 Mary Sue, Please don't stop announcing the Wiki additions. I look forward to seeing them and learning more about what plants I should next covet. Cheers, Bracey San Jose -----Original Message----- From: pbs-bounces@lists.ibiblio.org [mailto:pbs-bounces@lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf Of Mary Sue Ittner Sent: Friday, December 28, 2007 8:30 AM To: pbs@lists.ibiblio.org Subject: [pbs] Wiki additions -- Massonia, Haemanthus, Dietes, Chamaescilla Hi, I'm never sure if I should keep announcing wiki additions since I almost never get any feedback to know if anyone does more than delete the post. So perhaps people who care should write me privately and I could just have a short list I could send an announcement to. I know some of the others who add pictures have stopped telling people about their additions for the same reason. I just added some more Massonia pictures to the wiki. I also looked up the key in the Cape Encyclopedia and see that it is the stamens that are the distinguishing factors in telling the species apart. Massonia depressa has anthers that are more than 2mm. M. pygmaea besides being smaller has filaments of two lengths. Massonia pustulata has filaments longer than 10 mm (to 24mm.) and Massonia echinata 10 mm or less. So it looks like you need to measure to be sure of what you have. I went out and looked at my M. depressa and the anthers really are bigger. You can't see these subtle differences in pictures. Photos added: Massonia depressa from Cameron McMaster, Massonia echinata from Alan Horstmann (an unusual color) and pustulate, Massonia jasminiflora from me and now blooming, Massonia pustulata being pollinated (sorry these pictures aren't clearer, I had very little time to get a tripod or even be sure of my settings, but was fascinated watching the pollinator go from anther to anther), Massonia pustulata from Cameron, and finally Massonia pygmaea from Alan. http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki/index.php/Massonia I also added a few more Haemanthus pictures a couple of days ago. The first is of a hybrid I believe. Doug Westfall sent me seed of H. albiflos and one of the seedlings was distinctly different. http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki/index.php/HaemanthusSpeciesTwo#hyb rid And I added pictures of H. pauculifolius now blooming for awhile in my greenhouse. I obtained this from Telos a number of years ago, but this is the first time it has bloomed and I quite like it. http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki/index.php/HaemanthusSpeciesThree#p auculifolius I also added a picture of an additional Dietes species that we saw in the Royal Botanical Gardens in Sydney. This species, Dietes robinsoniana, is native to Cape Howe Island, an island off Australia. I added an additional picture from Alan Horstmann of Dietes bicolor at the same time. http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki/index.php/Dietes Finally about a week ago I added a wiki page for Chamaescilla http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki/index.php/Chamaescilla This is an Australian genus with blue flowers. It's a charming little plant we saw a number of times when we visited in September. It is not in the Hyacinth family, but in the Anthericaceae family along with some other Australian plants with the unusual root system that annually grows tuberous roots from a cormlike stem. This family has been included in Agavaceae or optionally Asparagaceae by APG II. Since Hyacinthaceae is also optionally included in Asparagaceae that is one way genera with blue flowers that have scilla in the name can be together. Mary Sue _______________________________________________ pbs mailing list pbs@lists.ibiblio.org http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php http://pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki From lmf@beautifulblooms.ab.ca Fri Dec 28 12:46:31 2007 Message-Id: From: "Linda Foulis" Subject: Wiki additions -- Massonia, Haemanthus, Dietes, Chamaescilla Date: Fri, 28 Dec 2007 10:45:16 -0700 Mary Sue, I sure don't mind your additions, I always read them. I really appreciate the detail you give when describing the new additions as well. I don't grow a good portion of what is on the wiki, so don't feel I should respond, but I do enjoy reading about them. It's kind of like getting your favorite gardening magazine in the mail. Linda in cold Okotoks, AB I've decided that we have to move to a warmer climate! From jwaddick@kc.rr.com Fri Dec 28 13:26:40 2007 Message-Id: From: James Waddick Subject: Wiki additions Date: Fri, 28 Dec 2007 12:19:59 -0600 Dear MAry Sue, I imagine that like many of us, I put these 'new additions' aside until I can find time to look at the wiki pages, re-read the pages and your comments. This may take 2 or 3 'openings', but I am sure many of us appreciate the excuse to peruse the wiki again and see what's new there. Keep it up. Please Jim W. -- Dr. James W. Waddick 8871 NW Brostrom Rd. Kansas City Missouri 64152-2711 USA Ph. 816-746-1949 Zone 5 Record low -23F Summer 100F + From pacegardens@charter.net Fri Dec 28 13:22:10 2007 Message-Id: <6AEE9D08AEE94A43B548CEFA75DE019B@MainPC> From: "Glen Pace" Subject: Wiki Additions Date: Fri, 28 Dec 2007 13:21:40 -0500 Mary Sue, I have to agree with Linda......I may not grow most of what is posted on the Wiki, but I do enjoy reading about it. Your postings are so complete that they do peak interest and I often look at the postings just to see what the new additions look like. Your knowledge base is so vast that it is impressive just to read your additions. Please do not stop announcing your postings to the Wiki. This is also a perfect time to thank everybody for their postings. It is enjoyable to read about plants in flower when I look out my window and see a blanket of white covering everything in sight. Glen Pace Pace Gardens Clio, MI USDA zone 5b Where we are getting another 3-5 inches of white sky sent insulation to cover the Rohdeas and other plants that aren't supposed to grow here, but seem to do quite well with the added insulation of 5-6 months of permanent snow cover. From jshields@indy.net Fri Dec 28 13:33:56 2007 Message-Id: <5.1.0.14.2.20071228132954.02731108@pop.indy.net> From: "J.E. Shields" Subject: Wiki Additions Date: Fri, 28 Dec 2007 13:33:51 -0500 Mary Sue, I usually don't look at the wiki unless I am searching for a picture of a specific plant. However, I read every word of your posts announcing updates and additions to the wiki. So please keep them coming! Best wishes for the New Year --may all find themselves healthy and happy and prosperous during 2008. Jim Shields in cold, rainy central Indiana (USA) where my grandkids and I just had mugs of hot chocolate! ************************************************* Jim Shields USDA Zone 5 Shields Gardens, Ltd. P.O. Box 92 WWW: http://www.shieldsgardens.com/ Westfield, Indiana 46074, USA Tel. ++1-317-867-3344 or toll-free 1-866-449-3344 in USA From d.avensis@virgin.net Fri Dec 28 13:40:53 2007 Message-Id: <001901c84981$2ce8c400$88891f56@Auricula> From: "David Nicholson" Subject: Wiki additions Date: Fri, 28 Dec 2007 18:40:52 -0000 Hi Mary Sue, As a long time 'lurker' and very much a beginner in bulb growing I find the Wiki a magnificent resource and your notification of updates to it extremely valuable. Please do continue to post them. David Nicholson in Devon UK Zone 9b From pasogal@ameritech.net Fri Dec 28 14:18:00 2007 Message-Id: <000a01c84986$34a62c50$9df284f0$@net> From: "Annalee" Subject: insufficient response to new wiki pictures Date: Fri, 28 Dec 2007 13:16:52 -0600 Mary Sue. I really enjoy all the new additions. I'm not likely to be able to grow ANY of them bnu what you are doing is not just for members of this small group, but for anybody who goes searching for a name on the Internet and needs picture to put with it. The wiki is the sole reference for many of us. Keep it up. If you need a hug let us know. Someone will be there for you. Regards, Adam From brown.mark@wanadoo.fr Fri Dec 28 14:31:12 2007 Message-Id: <18534261.1277031198870270914.JavaMail.www@wwinf2634> From: Mark BROWN Subject: Wiki additions -- Massonia, Haemanthus, Dietes, Chamaescilla Date: Fri, 28 Dec 2007 20:31:10 +0100 (CET) I too thouroughly enjoy all your work.Please,please keep up informing us of your progress.Really wonderful info and pictures. Thank you, M.W.Brown > Message du 28/12/07 17:31 > De : "Mary Sue Ittner" > A : pbs@lists.ibiblio.org > Copie à : > Objet : [pbs] Wiki additions -- Massonia, Haemanthus, Dietes, Chamaescilla > > Hi, > > I'm never sure if I should keep announcing wiki additions since I almost > never get any feedback to know if anyone does more than delete the post. So > perhaps people who care should write me privately and I could just have a > short list I could send an announcement to. I know some of the others who > add pictures have stopped telling people about their additions for the same > reason. > > I just added some more Massonia pictures to the wiki. I also looked up the > key in the Cape Encyclopedia and see that it is the stamens that are the > distinguishing factors in telling the species apart. Massonia depressa has > anthers that are more than 2mm. M. pygmaea besides being smaller has > filaments of two lengths. Massonia pustulata has filaments longer than 10 > mm (to 24mm.) and Massonia echinata 10 mm or less. So it looks like you > need to measure to be sure of what you have. I went out and looked at my M. > depressa and the anthers really are bigger. You can't see these subtle > differences in pictures. Photos added: Massonia depressa from Cameron > McMaster, Massonia echinata from Alan Horstmann (an unusual color) and > pustulate, Massonia jasminiflora from me and now blooming, Massonia > pustulata being pollinated (sorry these pictures aren't clearer, I had very > little time to get a tripod or even be sure of my settings, but was > fascinated watching the pollinator go from anther to anther), Massonia > pustulata from Cameron, and finally Massonia pygmaea from Alan. > http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki/index.php/Massonia > > I also added a few more Haemanthus pictures a couple of days ago. The first > is of a hybrid I believe. Doug Westfall sent me seed of H. albiflos and one > of the seedlings was distinctly different. > http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki/index.php/HaemanthusSpeciesTwo#hybrid > And I added pictures of H. pauculifolius now blooming for awhile in my > greenhouse. I obtained this from Telos a number of years ago, but this is > the first time it has bloomed and I quite like it. > http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki/index.php/HaemanthusSpeciesThree#pauculifolius > > I also added a picture of an additional Dietes species that we saw in the > Royal Botanical Gardens in Sydney. This species, Dietes robinsoniana, is > native to Cape Howe Island, an island off Australia. I added an additional > picture from Alan Horstmann of Dietes bicolor at the same time. > http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki/index.php/Dietes > > Finally about a week ago I added a wiki page for Chamaescilla > http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki/index.php/Chamaescilla > This is an Australian genus with blue flowers. It's a charming little plant > we saw a number of times when we visited in September. It is not in the > Hyacinth family, but in the Anthericaceae family along with some other > Australian plants with the unusual root system that annually grows tuberous > roots from a cormlike stem. This family has been included in Agavaceae or > optionally Asparagaceae by APG II. Since Hyacinthaceae is also optionally > included in Asparagaceae that is one way genera with blue flowers that have > scilla in the name can be together. > > Mary Sue > > > _______________________________________________ > pbs mailing list > pbs@lists.ibiblio.org > http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php > http://pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki > > From debbiett@comcast.net Fri Dec 28 20:02:41 2007 Message-Id: <299182B9A7A745F48198DFBD582EAFBE@Deb> From: "Debbie TT" Subject: insufficient response to new wiki pictures Date: Fri, 28 Dec 2007 17:02:32 -0800 I too am one that looks sometimes after an announcement and always enjoy them. I will try to speak up more often, I tend to be a lurker on the list. My bad! Thank you for adding to the wiki, it is appreciated. Debbie TT > > Mary Sue. I really enjoy all the new additions. I'm not likely to be > able > to grow ANY of them bnu what you are doing is not just for members of this > small group, but for anybody who goes searching for a name on the Internet > and needs picture to put with it. The wiki is the sole reference for > many > of us. Keep it up. If you need a hug let us know. Someone will be > there > for you. Regards, Adam ************************************************************************ Debbie TT Web page - Rainy Side Gardeners - rainyside.com Garden blog - Muck About - rainysidegardeners.typepad.com ************************************************************************ From othonna@gmail.com Fri Dec 28 23:57:25 2007 Message-Id: <8e8da5260712282057i5ae91ae9jc3e0997eb8d74a7f@mail.gmail.com> From: Hannon Subject: Wiki additions -- Massonia, Haemanthus, Dietes, Chamaescilla Date: Fri, 28 Dec 2007 20:57:18 -0800 Mary Sue, I enjoy your write-ups inviting us to look at new photos. A suggestion: if you run out of time/energy it would still be very helpful to have a notification with the genus or genera in the subject line. Happy New Year Dylan On Dec 28, 2007 8:29 AM, Mary Sue Ittner wrote: > Hi, > > I'm never sure if I should keep announcing wiki additions since I almost > never get any feedback to know if anyone does more than delete the post. > So > perhaps people who care should write me privately and I could just have a > short list I could send an announcement to. I know some of the others who > add pictures have stopped telling people about their additions for the > same > reason. > > I just added some more Massonia pictures to the wiki. I also looked up the > key in the Cape Encyclopedia and see that it is the stamens that are the > distinguishing factors in telling the species apart. Massonia depressa has > anthers that are more than 2mm. M. pygmaea besides being smaller has > filaments of two lengths. Massonia pustulata has filaments longer than 10 > mm (to 24mm.) and Massonia echinata 10 mm or less. So it looks like you > need to measure to be sure of what you have. I went out and looked at my > M. > depressa and the anthers really are bigger. You can't see these subtle > differences in pictures. Photos added: Massonia depressa from Cameron > McMaster, Massonia echinata from Alan Horstmann (an unusual color) and > pustulate, Massonia jasminiflora from me and now blooming, Massonia > pustulata being pollinated (sorry these pictures aren't clearer, I had > very > little time to get a tripod or even be sure of my settings, but was > fascinated watching the pollinator go from anther to anther), Massonia > pustulata from Cameron, and finally Massonia pygmaea from Alan. > http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki/index.php/Massonia > > I also added a few more Haemanthus pictures a couple of days ago. The > first > is of a hybrid I believe. Doug Westfall sent me seed of H. albiflos and > one > of the seedlings was distinctly different. > > http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki/index.php/HaemanthusSpeciesTwo#hybrid > And I added pictures of H. pauculifolius now blooming for awhile in my > greenhouse. I obtained this from Telos a number of years ago, but this is > the first time it has bloomed and I quite like it. > > http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki/index.php/HaemanthusSpeciesThree#pauculifolius > > I also added a picture of an additional Dietes species that we saw in the > Royal Botanical Gardens in Sydney. This species, Dietes robinsoniana, is > native to Cape Howe Island, an island off Australia. I added an additional > picture from Alan Horstmann of Dietes bicolor at the same time. > http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki/index.php/Dietes > > Finally about a week ago I added a wiki page for Chamaescilla > http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki/index.php/Chamaescilla > This is an Australian genus with blue flowers. It's a charming little > plant > we saw a number of times when we visited in September. It is not in the > Hyacinth family, but in the Anthericaceae family along with some other > Australian plants with the unusual root system that annually grows > tuberous > roots from a cormlike stem. This family has been included in Agavaceae or > optionally Asparagaceae by APG II. Since Hyacinthaceae is also optionally > included in Asparagaceae that is one way genera with blue flowers that > have > scilla in the name can be together. > > Mary Sue > > > _______________________________________________ > pbs mailing list > pbs@lists.ibiblio.org > http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php > http://pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki > From studio.pozzitaubert@tiscali.it Sat Dec 29 02:27:18 2007 Message-Id: From: Studio Pozzi Taubert Subject: Wiki additions Date: Sat, 29 Dec 2007 08:29:41 +0100 Il giorno 28/dic/07, alle ore 17:29, Mary Sue Ittner ha scritto: > Hi, > > I'm never sure if I should keep announcing wiki additions since I > almost > never get any feedback to know if anyone does more than delete the > post. Hello Mary, your work is much appreciated even if you don't get from me a reply to your announcements about new additions, I am too lazy and after reading your mail, most of the times I go to see some pictures directly, forgetting to write my opinion ( is it necessary? ), many times I haven't any experience of the plants you are explaining but your infos wake up my interest and it happened that I began looking for some species just after reading about them. Please keep writing, your job has built up a great source ( informations and pictures ) about these flowers; difficult to find something similar even on the Web. thanks, Giorgio From idavide@sbcglobal.net Sat Dec 29 17:30:29 2007 Message-Id: <212567.81691.qm@web81013.mail.mud.yahoo.com> From: David Ehrlich Subject: Question about Naked Ladies Date: Sat, 29 Dec 2007 14:30:28 -0800 (PST) Sorry I wasn’t able to thank all respondents immediately. ‘Cline’ is the botanical term I had been searching for. I’ve never encountered the term 'Rassenkreis'. It’s a very graphic if rather Teutonic description. Thank you all, again. David Ehrlich From john@johnlonsdale.net Sat Dec 29 18:34:59 2007 Message-Id: <00ab01c84a73$60245f30$6801a8c0@XPS400> From: "John T Lonsdale" Subject: Life at the IBS? Date: Sat, 29 Dec 2007 18:34:32 -0500 Before Christmas a friend in Eastern Europe asked me to buy some back issues of Herbertia for him. I went to the IBS website and identified the online 'store' and selected the volumes I wanted. I was kicked into the e-commerce section of the web site which was flagged because its security certificate had expired. The site may not have been compromised but I wasn't willing to take the risk. I then found a form to download to order the publications and thought my luck was in because it listed our near and dear Arnold T as the man to contact. Unfortunately Arnold departed that position several years ago but it seems no-one bothered to update the form! I was given two emails to try, one of Alan Meerow, the editor of Herbertia, the other being publications@ibs.org. In nearly a week, notes to both of these have gone unanswered. Does anyone have a better idea as to how I might get these back issues of Herbertia please? Thanks, John John T Lonsdale PhD 407 Edgewood Drive, Exton, Pennsylvania 19341, USA Home: 610 594 9232 Cell: 484 678 9856 Fax: 801 327 1266 Visit "Edgewood" - The Lonsdale Garden at http://www.edgewoodgardens.net USDA Zone 6b From rpries@sbcglobal.net Sun Dec 30 14:44:29 2007 Message-Id: <72338.1854.qm@web81906.mail.mud.yahoo.com> From: Robt R Pries Subject: Wiki additions Date: Sun, 30 Dec 2007 11:44:28 -0800 (PST) Mary Sue; Please don’t be discouraged by the lack of response to the postings to the wiki. I have found it to be the norm that very few people send compliments or acknowledgements to those that work hard in organizations and provide benefits. The The PBS Wiki is a fantastic resource. You probably touch the lives of many gardeners who are looking for a small bit of information and never join PBS or any other organization. It is somewhat of a miracle the amount of information that gets placed free upon the world wide web. That small subset of the population, like yourself, that share their work for the world to see, deserve special recognition. Unfortunately only a small subset try to advance that effort by supporting the organizations that make it possible and an even smaller subset aid in that work. I regret to say that I have not contributed any photos, but for the last year my camera has been in another state and I have not been able to take any. Be assured that when I can, I will do my part to help. In the meantime I can only pay my dues and send you this thank you for a job that is being done very well. Bob Pries --- Mary Sue Ittner wrote: > Hi, > > I'm never sure if I should keep announcing wiki > additions since I almost > never get any feedback to know if anyone does more > than delete the post. So > perhaps people who care should write me privately > and I could just have a > short list I could send an announcement to. I know > some of the others who > add pictures have stopped telling people about their > additions for the same > reason. > > I just added some more Massonia pictures to the > wiki. I also looked up the > key in the Cape Encyclopedia and see that it is the > stamens that are the > distinguishing factors in telling the species apart. > Massonia depressa has > anthers that are more than 2mm. M. pygmaea besides > being smaller has > filaments of two lengths. Massonia pustulata has > filaments longer than 10 > mm (to 24mm.) and Massonia echinata 10 mm or less. > So it looks like you > need to measure to be sure of what you have. I went > out and looked at my M. > depressa and the anthers really are bigger. You > can't see these subtle > differences in pictures. Photos added: Massonia > depressa from Cameron > McMaster, Massonia echinata from Alan Horstmann (an > unusual color) and > pustulate, Massonia jasminiflora from me and now > blooming, Massonia > pustulata being pollinated (sorry these pictures > aren't clearer, I had very > little time to get a tripod or even be sure of my > settings, but was > fascinated watching the pollinator go from anther to > anther), Massonia > pustulata from Cameron, and finally Massonia pygmaea > from Alan. > http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki/index.php/Massonia > > I also added a few more Haemanthus pictures a couple > of days ago. The first > is of a hybrid I believe. Doug Westfall sent me seed > of H. albiflos and one > of the seedlings was distinctly different. > http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki/index.php/HaemanthusSpeciesTwo#hybrid > And I added pictures of H. pauculifolius now > blooming for awhile in my > greenhouse. I obtained this from Telos a number of > years ago, but this is > the first time it has bloomed and I quite like it. > http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki/index.php/HaemanthusSpeciesThree#pauculifolius > > I also added a picture of an additional Dietes > species that we saw in the > Royal Botanical Gardens in Sydney. This species, > Dietes robinsoniana, is > native to Cape Howe Island, an island off Australia. > I added an additional > picture from Alan Horstmann of Dietes bicolor at the > same time. > http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki/index.php/Dietes > > Finally about a week ago I added a wiki page for > Chamaescilla > http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki/index.php/Chamaescilla > This is an Australian genus with blue flowers. It's > a charming little plant > we saw a number of times when we visited in > September. It is not in the > Hyacinth family, but in the Anthericaceae family > along with some other > Australian plants with the unusual root system that > annually grows tuberous > roots from a cormlike stem. This family has been > included in Agavaceae or > optionally Asparagaceae by APG II. Since > Hyacinthaceae is also optionally > included in Asparagaceae that is one way genera with > blue flowers that have > scilla in the name can be together. > > Mary Sue > > > _______________________________________________ > pbs mailing list > pbs@lists.ibiblio.org > http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php > http://pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki > From marie-paule.opdenakker@pandora.be Sun Dec 30 15:18:58 2007 Message-Id: <000001c84b21$35441f40$9fcc5dc0$@opdenakker@pandora.be> From: "Marie-Paule" Subject: wiki additions Date: Sun, 30 Dec 2007 21:18:57 +0100 Hello Mary Sue, Please do not despair; You do a fine job in this organization. If I could my English better I would respond more, it is not that the people do not respond, that they would appreciate what You do! I do, and all I want to know I find on the PBS sites, thank You for that and Your fine work. Marie-Paule Belgium