From christopherwhitehouse@rhs.org.uk Mon Dec 1 03:44:45 2008 Message-Id: <35853A08CFFB814F8A5A1185D8630994370B11@vsmail2.rhs.net> From: Subject: Ornithogalum split again Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2008 08:44:51 -0000 This small news item was drawn to our attention at the latest meeting of our nomenclatural advisory committee. For those who like to adopt the latest taxonomic treatment just because it is the newest, there is a salutary warning in the latest Kew Scientist (http://www.kew.org/kewscientist/ks_34.pdf): the previous lumping of Albuca, Dipcadi and Pseudogaltonia into Ornithogalum looks like it will be reversed. Fortunately, the PBS wiki did not jump the gun on this one, however, there is still no mention of Galtonia, so presumably it is not going to be reinstated - I wonder where it will end up? Chris Dr Christopher Whitehouse Secretary to the Advisory Committee on Nomenclature and Taxonomy RHS Garden Wisley WOKING Surrey GU23 6QB Tel: 01483 224234 Fax: 01483 211750 From jshields104@comcast.net Mon Dec 1 09:32:15 2008 Message-Id: <5.1.0.14.2.20081201091606.01b91680@mail.comcast.net> From: "J.E. Shields" Subject: Nerine Hybrids Date: Mon, 01 Dec 2008 09:32:54 -0500 Hi all, My Nerine bowdenii and N. sarniensis have just about finished blooming. I was wondering if anyone here knows whether hybrids between bowdenii and sarniensis have ever been made? I bought one small collection of the Smithers-Rothschild sarniensis hybrids from Nicholas de Rothschild this past spring, and 4 of the 7 bulbs have bloomed or are about to bloom. I also have N. bowdenii 'Nikita' in bloom; this one is a nice light pink color on a typical bowdenii flower. So I took some pollen from bowdenii 'Nikita' and put it on a couple flowers of sarniensis 'Kofranek', which is also a nice very light pink color. Since there were several sarniensis hybrids in bloom together, I'm not sure who the pollen parent will have been if I get seeds on the 'Kofranek'. I've also applied some of the 'Kofranek' pollen to 'Nikita'. Wish me luck! I've never gotten seeds formed from pollinating bowdenii X krigei or the reverse, nor from laticoma x krigei nor the reverse. Has anyone here gotten other interspecific hybrids in Nerine? I'd like to hear about it. Jim Shields in chilly central Indiana (USA), where it is snowing lightly ************************************************* Jim Shields USDA Zone 5 Shields Gardens, Ltd. P.O. Box 92 WWW: http://www.shieldsgardens.com/ Westfield, Indiana 46074, USA Tel. ++1-317-867-3344 or toll-free 1-866-449-3344 in USA From j.grimshaw@virgin.net Mon Dec 1 13:21:53 2008 Message-Id: <007601c953e1$ae93ab30$0401a8c0@MAINPC> From: "John Grimshaw" Subject: Nerine Hybrids Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2008 18:21:50 -0000 Jim Shields asked about Nerine hybrids. A number of breeders have made hybrids between N. sarniensis and bowdenii, with the obvious intention of combining the colours of the first with the hardiness of the latter. The most diligent breeder was the late Terry Jones of Zeal Monachorum, Devon, who had a breeding programme going back several decades and numerous generations. Some of his progeny are on the market in the UK, e.g. the spectacular tall 'Zeal Giant' with big bright pink flowers and shorter 'Zeal Salmon' and 'Zeal Grilse' with more salmony shades. Terry died a couple of years ago but left the entire breeding programme and stock to Matt Bishop (of snowdrop fame), who now works on them at the Garden House, Buckland Monachorum (lots of monks in Devon, evidently). Some of the colours are fantastic, including the dark purple of 'Zeal Plum' and various salmony shades, but none of the Zeal hybrids have scarlet flowers. 'Afterglow' is a commercially available hybrid, I forgot from which breeder, with quite good red flowers, but it is strongly winter growing. Many of the Zeal hybrids are fully hardy in southern England, but just not freely enough available to try widely, yet. Most of the F1 generation are not very hardy, tending to be winter-growing, so the aim of the breeding is to work back to N. bowdenii for hardiness, but finding the right combinations of parents is not so easy. What Matt is looking for, even in seedlings, is winter dormancy as a good predictor of probable hardiness. I must pester him to write an article summarising progress sometime. John Grimshaw Dr. John M. Grimshaw Sycamore Cottage Colesbourne Cheltenham Gloucestershire GL53 9NP Tel. 01242 870567 From dejager@bulbargence.com Mon Dec 1 14:24:57 2008 Message-Id: From: Lauw de Jager Subject: Nerine Hybrids Date: Mon, 01 Dec 2008 20:24:49 +0100 Dear all, We just had a light frost here (-2-3°C), which was a good test of the frost hardyness of the flowers. All are planted in the open ground: Afterglow (Exbury hybrid): flowers gone, Manselli hybrid (cross N.flexuosa with N sarniense) flowers intact, N bowdenii 'Pink Triumf' flowers intact. The flowerbuds and flowers of N undulata are untouched. No leafdamage at all. (Just to compare the intesity of the frost: The Dahlia imperialis: flowes and leaves are touched but not scorched) I specially recommend the Nerine manseilli hybrid as a garden plant. Kind greetings -- Lauw de Jager Bulb'Argence South of France (zone 9 (olive trees) emailto: dejager@bulbargence.com Site www.bulbargence.com Le 1/12/08 19:21, « John Grimshaw » a écrit : > 'Afterglow' is a commercially available hybrid, I forgot from which breeder, > with quite good red flowers, but it is strongly winter growing. Many of the > Zeal hybrids are fully hardy in southern England, but just not freely enough > available to try widely, yet. From tom@evolution-plants.com Mon Dec 1 15:00:48 2008 Message-Id: <7EE69A03-2CAC-4ECB-AAED-BF20FBBB635A@evolution-plants.com> From: Tom Mitchell Subject: Nerine hybrids Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2008 19:58:49 +0000 Hi Jim, You can download the most interesting 'Report of the Proceedings of a Hardy Nerine Study Day' at www.rhs.org.uk/plants/plants_groups/ nerine.asp. There is an article in the report, written by Marion Wood and Matt Bishop, which describes a long breeding program undertaken by the late Terry Jones, crossing N. bowdenii and N. sarniensis. By backcrossing the F1 hybrids with N. bowdenii, fertile, hardy hybrids resulted. Apparently the F1 cross is rather easy to make, so I expect that your experiments with 'Nikita' and 'Kofranek' will be successful. Good luck! The report contains some fantastic photographs, which have inspired me to want to try more species and cultivars. Regards, Tom From johannes-ulrich-urban@T-Online.de Mon Dec 1 16:21:26 2008 Message-Id: <1L7GCg-0n6sYC0@fwd04.aul.t-online.de> From: "Uli Urban" Subject: Ullucus Date: 01 Dec 2008 21:17 GMT Dear James and Dear All, Further to your question about Ullucus tuberosus, I think Ullucus is the old name for Basella not in use anymore. Basella is a South American tuberous climbing plant with thick succulent leaves and an enourmous growth rate. It forms clumps of elongated tubers and on the aerial climbing stems it also forms small aerial bulbils. It is frost tender so makes an excellent screening plant without the risk of becoming a weed in cold winter climates but in warm winter climates it can take over large areas. It is always found near human settlements in frost free climates like the Canary Islands and from theres I once brought some bulbils. It flowers with rather insignificant whitish flowers with a certain fragrance but nothing spectacular. I have never tried to boil and eat the tubers but I know it is a vegetable. I am sorry but I cannot help out with propagation material as I stopped growing it because it grows so fast and entwines with all its neighbours but it is in the commerce under the current name of Basella. Hope this helped, Uli From pbs@pilling.demon.co.uk Mon Dec 1 16:28:01 2008 Message-Id: From: David Pilling Subject: Nerine hybrids Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2008 21:26:29 +0000 In message <7EE69A03-2CAC-4ECB-AAED-BF20FBBB635A@evolution-plants.com>, Tom Mitchell writes >Hardy Nerine Study Day' at www.rhs.org.uk/plants/plants_groups/ >nerine.asp. Needs to be: https://www.rhs.org.uk/plants/plant_groups/nerine.asp -- David Pilling From msittner@mcn.org Mon Dec 1 19:25:26 2008 Message-Id: <5.2.0.9.2.20081201153207.03116038@mail.mcn.org> From: Mary Sue Ittner Subject: List duties Date: Mon, 01 Dec 2008 15:41:52 -0800 PBS List duties 1. Help people in subscribing, unsubscribing, changing email addresses, setting to nomail and back to mail, changing from individual messages to the digest or vice versa, trouble shooting problems, adding second addresses 2. Responding to non-member messages by deleting the ones that are spam, forwarding messages meant for another member of our list, dealing with messages from a list member from a second address, and responding to genuine requests for help from non-members 3. Corresponding with ibiblio.org help when there is a problem that we can't solve or when they have a problem with our list. This has often included problems when domains block other domains 4. Keeping a data base of list members which is shared with other administrators I do #1, 3, 4 and Diane does #2. I back her up on #2 and she backs me up on #1 and on time #3 Arnold helps remove spam sometimes if Diane or I haven't done it. From msittner@mcn.org Mon Dec 1 19:33:59 2008 Message-Id: <5.2.0.9.2.20081201162650.04091dc0@mail.mcn.org> From: Mary Sue Ittner Subject: Sorry Date: Mon, 01 Dec 2008 16:32:12 -0800 The new Pacific Bulb Society Secretary is working on a list of duties for each job that some of us volunteer to do for this organization and I accidentally sent to the list what I had intended to send just to her. I guess Pam was too close to Pacific and I must have hit the wrong one when my email program suggested who it though I wanted to write. I'm very sorry to clutter the list with a private message. Mary Sue From jimmckenney@jimmckenney.com Mon Dec 1 19:29:49 2008 Message-Id: <003201c95415$9010db40$2f01a8c0@Library> From: "Jim McKenney" Subject: Something for Moraea lovers! Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2008 19:33:12 -0500 At a book sale the other day I picked up a small but interesting book on baboons, Baboons, survivors of the African continent, by Louise Barrett. It contains this astonishing statement: “During a study of the chacma baboons of the Drakensberg Mountains in South Africa, primatologist Andrew Whitten once calculated that a group of five baboons had consumed more than 30,000 Morea (sic) flowers in the space of only two-and-a-half hours.” Wow! Jim McKenney jimmckenney@jimmckenney.com Montgomery County, Maryland, USA, 39.03871º North, 77.09829º West, USDA zone 7, where I'm still planting bulbs. My Virtual Maryland Garden http://www.jimmckenney.com BLOG! http://mcwort.blogspot.com/ Webmaster Potomac Valley Chapter, NARGS Editor PVC Bulletin http://www.pvcnargs.org Webmaster Potomac Lily Society http://www.potomaclilysociety.org From shayek.kent@gmail.com Mon Dec 1 19:39:03 2008 Message-Id: From: Susan Hayek Subject: Sorry Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2008 16:38:56 -0800 At 4:32 PM -0800 12/1/08, Mary Sue Ittner wrote: >The new Pacific Bulb Society Secretary is working on a list of duties for >each job that some of us volunteer to do for this organization and I >accidentally sent to the list what I had intended to send just to her. I >guess Pam was too close to Pacific and I must have hit the wrong one when >my email program suggested who it though I wanted to write. I'm very sorry >to clutter the list with a private message. > >Mary Sue **It is a very good reminder of what is done on the list, Mary Sue. I think many people don't realize how hard people work behind the scenes. . s. -- susan hayek; doggies jasper, quiz, schubert, gracie, & jones on the coast of NorCal -- shayek.kent@gmail.com, 2008 my flicker fotos: http://flickr.com/photos/57336354@N00/ From pandi_bear@bigpond.com Mon Dec 1 20:36:54 2008 Message-Id: From: "Carolyn Fra" Subject: Something for Moraea lovers! Date: Tue, 2 Dec 2008 12:36:40 +1100 Hi, Jim, :o) That is not something that I could bear to watch, LOL! Carolyn (Tasmania, Australia) -----Original Message----- From: pbs-bounces@lists.ibiblio.org [mailto:pbs-bounces@lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf Of Jim McKenney Sent: Tuesday, 2 December 2008 11:33 AM To: 'Pacific Bulb Society' Subject: [pbs] Something for Moraea lovers! At a book sale the other day I picked up a small but interesting book on baboons, Baboons, survivors of the African continent, by Louise Barrett. It contains this astonishing statement: “During a study of the chacma baboons of the Drakensberg Mountains in South Africa, primatologist Andrew Whitten once calculated that a group of five baboons had consumed more than 30,000 Morea (sic) flowers in the space of only two-and-a-half hours.” Wow! Jim McKenney jimmckenney@jimmckenney.com Montgomery County, Maryland, USA, 39.03871º North, 77.09829º West, USDA zone 7, where I'm still planting bulbs. My Virtual Maryland Garden http://www.jimmckenney.com BLOG! http://mcwort.blogspot.com/ Webmaster Potomac Valley Chapter, NARGS Editor PVC Bulletin http://www.pvcnargs.org Webmaster Potomac Lily Society http://www.potomaclilysociety.org _______________________________________________ pbs mailing list pbs@lists.ibiblio.org http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php http://pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki From voltaire@islandnet.com Mon Dec 1 21:15:36 2008 Message-Id: <9957C0AD-CAE6-420D-9663-447882AC5CA7@islandnet.com> From: Diane Whitehead Subject: Something for Moraea lovers! Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2008 18:16:48 -0800 > > That is not something that I could bear to watch, LOL! > > -----Original Message----- > five baboons had consumed more than 30,000 > Morea (sic) flowers in the space of only two-and-a-half hours.” > Moraea salad! And since some species have flowers that last only a few hours, why not? Diane > From carlobal@netzero.net Mon Dec 1 21:28:30 2008 Message-Id: <20081201.212628.18383.0@webmail12.vgs.untd.com> From: "carlobal@netzero.net" Subject: Something for Moraea lovers! Date: Tue, 2 Dec 2008 02:26:28 GMT Has anyone tasted them? It's a step beyond putting nasturiums on a salad, but...what a focal point for an event! Carlo A. Balistrieri The Gardens at Turtle Point Tuxedo Park, NY 10987 Zone 6 (845.351.2849) Visit: www.botanicalgardening.com and its BGBlog From Billthebulbbaron@aol.com Mon Dec 1 22:45:11 2008 Message-Id: From: Billthebulbbaron@aol.com Subject: Nerine Hybrids Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2008 22:45:04 EST In a message dated 12/1/08 10:22:34 AM, j.grimshaw@virgin.net writes: > Some of his progeny are on the market in > the UK, e.g. the spectacular tall 'Zeal Giant' with big bright pink flowers > and shorter  'Zeal Salmon' and 'Zeal Grilse' with more salmony shades. > John, I am very interested in this group, however the problem is that I do not know of anyone in UK who will ship these to USA. The suppliers I have come across online seem not willing to export outside of the EU. Any suggestions? I am willing to bear the risk, that is I don't care if they have "papers"or not. Best wishes, Bill the Bulb Baron (William R.P. Welch) NEW address: 1031 Cayuga Street Apt B, Santa Cruz, CA 95062, USA From msittner@mcn.org Mon Dec 1 22:51:52 2008 Message-Id: <5.2.0.9.2.20081201193859.036274b8@mail.mcn.org> From: Mary Sue Ittner Subject: Something for Moraea lovers! Date: Mon, 01 Dec 2008 19:51:25 -0800 Some of the Homerias (now part of Moraea) are supposed to be toxic to stock which is why they are banned in most of the US. I related a story earlier in the year of a spotted towhee that had developed a taste for Moraea bellendenii. How it discovered it was edible I don't know. But the bird would dig around in the spot where there were corms until they were uncovered and them smash them with its feet before eating them. I believe this is a North American bird and don't know if Moraea corms have been eaten by South African birds. This particular species tends to divide into quite a lot of smaller corms so I just let the bird go after them. It was so fascinating watching it in action. I don't know if they improved in taste when they were crushed or just easier to eat. It happened on more than one day in the same spot so it wasn't an isolated incident. I'm not sure this would make me brave enough to try eating them myself however. Mary Sue From othonna@gmail.com Mon Dec 1 23:00:26 2008 Message-Id: <8e8da5260812012000x57ff4ee7p13cadf9720b70c7c@mail.gmail.com> From: Hannon Subject: Ullucus Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2008 20:00:25 -0800 Uli, The commonly seen plant you describe is Boussingaultia baselloides, a vigorous vine with an irregular tuberous rootstock. Ullucus tuberosus is a different plant in the same family Basellaceae and is a root crop in the Andes (like oca and potato). Also in this family is Basella itself and a few others. I've never seen Ullucus but it seems like it would make a good addition to any eclectic collection of geophytes or root crops. I believe the tubers can grow large and the foliage is also attractive. Time for a new introduction! Dylan Hannon Dylan Hannon Rare Bulbs On 01/12/2008, Uli Urban wrote: > Dear James and Dear All, > > > Further to your question about Ullucus tuberosus, I think Ullucus is the > old name for Basella not in use anymore. Basella is a South American > tuberous climbing plant with thick succulent leaves and an enourmous > growth rate. It forms clumps of elongated tubers and on the aerial > climbing stems it also forms small aerial bulbils. It is frost tender so > makes an excellent screening plant without the risk of becoming a weed > in cold winter climates but in warm winter climates it can take over > large areas. > It is always found near human settlements in frost free climates like > the Canary Islands and from theres I once brought some bulbils. It > flowers with rather insignificant whitish flowers with a certain > fragrance but nothing spectacular. I have never tried to boil and eat > the tubers but I know it is a vegetable. I am sorry but I cannot help > out with propagation material as I stopped growing it because it grows > so fast and entwines with all its neighbours but it is in the commerce > under the current name of Basella. > > Hope this helped, Uli > _______________________________________________ > pbs mailing list > pbs@lists.ibiblio.org > http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php > http://pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki > From brown.mark@wanadoo.fr Tue Dec 2 02:44:21 2008 Message-Id: <27371028.3717.1228203859383.JavaMail.www@wwinf1c07> From: Mark BROWN Subject: Ullucus/Boussingaultia Date: Tue, 2 Dec 2008 08:44:19 +0100 (CET) Dear all, I can vouch for the excellent palatability of the leaves.I ate some lately.I have just transplanted the group and yes it definately is very prolific.From one tuberous root countless offshoots.I have put it amongst Rubus phoenicolasius to fight it out.I don't know if it will survive our relatively mild maritime winter here.I also grow Dioscorea japonica which can have beautifully marbled leaves.This is hardy here.My forms have not born up to the seed companies claims unfortunately,only very slight marbling,but it looks ok. Mark > Message du 02/12/08 05:00 > De : "Hannon" > A : "Pacific Bulb Society" > Copie à : > Objet : Re: [pbs] Ullucus > > > Uli, > > The commonly seen plant you describe is Boussingaultia baselloides, a > vigorous vine with an irregular tuberous rootstock. Ullucus tuberosus > is a different plant in the same family Basellaceae and is a root crop > in the Andes (like oca and potato). Also in this family is Basella > itself and a few others. I've never seen Ullucus but it seems like it > would make a good addition to any eclectic collection of geophytes or > root crops. I believe the tubers can grow large and the foliage is > also attractive. Time for a new introduction! > > Dylan Hannon > > Dylan Hannon Rare Bulbs From dejager@bulbargence.com Tue Dec 2 03:01:34 2008 Message-Id: From: Lauw de Jager Subject: Nerine hybrids Date: Tue, 02 Dec 2008 09:01:24 +0100 To all those interested in Nerine: This document is a real tresure of information on this subject. Highly recommended!!! -- Lauw de Jager Bulb'Argence South of France (zone 9 (olive trees) emailto: dejager@bulbargence.com Site www.bulbargence.com Le 1/12/08 22:26, « David Pilling » a écrit : > https://www.rhs.org.uk/plants/plant_groups/nerine.asp From tglavich@sbcglobal.net Tue Dec 2 10:18:33 2008 Message-Id: <78866.13427.qm@web82906.mail.mud.yahoo.com> From: Thomas Glavich Subject: Nerine Hybrids Date: Tue, 2 Dec 2008 07:18:25 -0800 (PST) I have laticoma x krigei.  The seedlings have been up about a month and are growing well.  The reverse only produced a few small seeds, and these did not  germinate. Tom Glavich in Southern California ________________________________ From: J.E. Shields To: Pacific Bulb Society Sent: Monday, December 1, 2008 6:32:54 AM Subject: [pbs] Nerine Hybrids Hi all, My Nerine bowdenii and N. sarniensis have just about finished blooming.  I was wondering if anyone here knows whether hybrids between bowdenii and sarniensis have ever been made? I bought one small collection of the Smithers-Rothschild sarniensis hybrids from Nicholas de Rothschild this past spring, and 4 of the 7 bulbs have bloomed or are about to bloom.  I also have N. bowdenii 'Nikita' in bloom; this one is a nice light pink color on a typical bowdenii flower.  So I took some pollen from bowdenii 'Nikita' and put it on a couple flowers of sarniensis 'Kofranek', which is also a nice very light pink color.  Since there were several sarniensis hybrids in bloom together, I'm not sure who the pollen parent will have been if I get seeds on the 'Kofranek'. I've also applied some of the 'Kofranek' pollen to 'Nikita'.  Wish me luck! I've never gotten seeds formed from pollinating bowdenii X krigei or the reverse, nor from laticoma x krigei nor the reverse.  Has anyone here gotten other interspecific hybrids in Nerine?  I'd like to hear about it. Jim Shields in chilly central Indiana (USA), where it is snowing lightly ************************************************* Jim Shields            USDA Zone 5            Shields Gardens, Ltd. P.O. Box 92              WWW:    http://www.shieldsgardens.com/ Westfield, Indiana 46074, USA Tel. ++1-317-867-3344    or      toll-free 1-866-449-3344 in USA _______________________________________________ pbs mailing list pbs@lists.ibiblio.org http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php http://pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki From idavide@sbcglobal.net Tue Dec 2 14:09:12 2008 Message-Id: <722135.35211.qm@web81007.mail.mud.yahoo.com> From: David Ehrlich Subject: Ullucus/Boussingaultia Date: Tue, 2 Dec 2008 11:09:10 -0800 (PST) >From Lost Crops of the Incas:  Some of the most striking-looking roots in Andean markets are the ullucos (Ullucus tuberosus, Basellaceae).  They are so brightly colored – yellow, pink, red, even candy striped – that their waxy skins make them look, almost like plastic fakes.  Many are shaped like small potatoes but others are curiously long and curved like crooked sausages.  Their skin is thin and soft and needs no peeling before eating.  The white to lemon-yellow flesh has a smooth, silky texture with a nutty taste.  Some types are gummy when raw, but in cooking, this characteristic is reduced or lost.  Indeed, a major appeal of ulluco is its crisp texture, which remains even when cooked.   They can be kept for a year at cool room temperatures, but they should not be exposed to light lest their skins turn green.  The green leaves are also nutritious, boiled or raw, not unlike those of Basella rubra (Malabar spinach). From info@auchgourishbotanicgarden.org Tue Dec 2 16:20:45 2008 Message-Id: <68354829126945ADB15D287F02B82BB7@homepc> From: Subject: Crinum & Fritillaria Date: Tue, 2 Dec 2008 21:20:26 -0000 For those who may be interested in the Nerine & Fritillaria genera there is a new study day this autumn at the RHS a new 64 page booklet has been published, jointly sponsered by the RHS and the Nerine & Amaryllid Society. Enitled "Report of the proceedings of a Hardy Nerine Study Day. Available as a PDF format from www.rhs.org.uk/plants/plant_groups/nerine.asp A rpinted version is available free plus postage obviously from the RHS Department of Botany Also for Frit lovers in PDF format on line since this autumn, go to www.fritllariaicones.com the website currently features 28 species with images and data so far, q.v. I hope this helps. Iain -- I am using the free version of SPAMfighter. We are a community of 5.7 million users fighting spam. SPAMfighter has removed 36008 of my spam emails to date. Get the free SPAMfighter here: http://www.spamfighter.com/len The Professional version does not have this message From johannes-ulrich-urban@T-Online.de Tue Dec 2 18:33:56 2008 Message-Id: <1L7eka-1buFge0@fwd03.aul.t-online.de> From: "Uli Urban" Subject: Ullucus/Basella/Boussingualtia/Anredera Date: 02 Dec 2008 23:33 GMT Dear All, Well.... there seems to be some confusion about what is what in these interesting plants. I have not heard of Anredera and it looks as if my guess that Basella is the same plant as Ullucus seems to be wrong. I have an old book on house plants from the very beginning of the 20th century written in old gothic German letters and there is Ullucus and the description of the plant fitted on what is now Boussingaultia, I thought at least. So I checked on the internet using the names Anredera, Boussingaultia, Basella and Ullucus and found pictures of plants that look so similaar that I think it is the same or at least very closely related. Anredera cordifolia had the best pictures with most detail shown. Is it possible that this is all the same plant under so many different names? bye for today.... Uli From othonna@gmail.com Tue Dec 2 18:47:06 2008 Message-Id: <8e8da5260812021547w3ef14ea8t2803a8da4a2689c9@mail.gmail.com> From: Hannon Subject: Ullucus/Basella/Boussingualtia/Anredera Date: Tue, 2 Dec 2008 15:47:05 -0800 Hello All, *Anredera* is the correct name for now-synonymous *Boussingaultia*. The family Basellaceae is comprised of these four genera only: *Anredera* (10-15 species, warm Americas) *Basella* (5 species, pantropical, esp. Madagascar) *Tournonia* (1 species, Colombia) *Ullucus* (1 species, Andes) from Mabberley, 1997 (2nd ed.) "The Plant Book" Dylan Hannon 2008/12/2 Uli Urban > Dear All, > > > Well.... there seems to be some confusion about what is what in these > interesting plants. I have not heard of Anredera and it looks as if my > guess that Basella is the same plant as Ullucus seems to be wrong. I > have an old book on house plants from the very beginning of the 20th > century written in old gothic German letters and there is Ullucus and > the description of the plant fitted on what is now Boussingaultia, I > thought at least. So I checked on the internet using the names Anredera, > Boussingaultia, Basella and Ullucus and found pictures of plants that > look so similaar that I think it is the same or at least very closely > related. Anredera cordifolia had the best pictures with most detail > shown. Is it possible that this is all the same plant under so many > different names? > > > bye for today.... Uli > _______________________________________________ > pbs mailing list > pbs@lists.ibiblio.org > http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php > http://pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki > From dells@voicenet.com Wed Dec 3 09:50:57 2008 Message-Id: <20081203145033.B0A0E4C02C@lists.ibiblio.org> From: "Dell Sherk" Subject: Pacific BX 193 Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2008 09:50:17 -0500 Dear All, The items listed below have been donated by our members to be shared. If you are interested in obtaining some of them, please email me PRIVATELY at . Include "BX 193" in the subject line. Specify the NUMBERS of the items which you would like; do not specify quantities. It is a good idea to include your snail mail address, too, in case I don't already have it. Availability is based on a first come, first served system. When you receive your seeds/bulbs you will find, included with them, a statement of how much money (usually $2.00/item) (cash, check, or Pay Pal to ; no money orders, please) you should send the PBS treasurer to defray our costs for packing and first-class, priority-mail, or international postage. PLEASE NOTE: NEW POSTAL-RATE SCHEMES NECESSITATE OUR PLACING A SURCHARGE ON EACH ORDER FROM PBS BX OFFERINGS. Some of you are members of the online PBS discussion forum but are not members of the Pacific Bulb Society. THIS BX OFFERING IS AVAILABLE ONLY TO MEMBERS OF THE PBS. Consider joining the PBS so that you can take advantage of future offers such as this. Go to our website: http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org .... If you would like to donate seeds or bulbs/corms to the PBS,(Donors will receive credit on the BX for the cost of postage for their donations.), please send CLEAN, clearly labeled material to: Dell Sherk 6832 Phillips Mill Rd. New Hope, PA, 18938 USA I WILL REPLY TO YOU WITHIN 24 HRS OF MY RECEIPT OF YOUR ORDER. IF YOU DO NOT HEAR FROM ME, TRY AGAIN !! From Alberto Castillo: 1. Cormlets of Tritonia deusta (W). As the other Tritonias, a late flowerer, when 90% of Cape bulbs have finished doing it. Among these corms some belong to a very fine form of "variety miniata" in which there is a dark red spot surrounded with black on each outer tepal. Striking. 2. Tubers of Anredera cordifolia (Boussingaultia gracilis) (S). This is a native climber for warm climates. Flowers are abundant but insignificant in white spikes much like in Dioscoreas. The foliage, round, thick, fleshy, and a light green is very attractive on meshes over walls or treillages. Also excellent to cover wire mesh. The foliage is evergreen and resist frosts to -5 C. Full sun. From David Ehrlich: 3. Seed of Dietes grandiflora From Ton de Waard: 4. Seed of Crocosmia mainly from red Dutch cv 'Mars' From Dell Sherk: 5. Seed of Sinningia insularis small scarlet tubular flowers ON SALE: 2006 Seed of Iris from the Species Iris Group of North America (SIGNA) Most iris seed has a very long shelf life. --> $.50 PER PACKET <-- 6. Iris sibirica OP -- white, tall, not related to 'Snow Prince' 7. I. typhifolia OP -- ex. Mongolia 8. I. koreana OP -- ex. Pyosan Bando, S. Korea 9. I. speculatrix OP 10. I. spuria ssp. carthaliniae OP -- ex. ' Georgian Delicacy' 11. I. ensata coll. Korea 12. I. laevigata 'Orizuru' OP 13. I. versicolor 'Between The Lines' OP 14. I. versicolor 'Epic Poem' OP -- light blue, very vigorous 15. I. versicolor 'Mint Fresh' OP -- white with heavy maroon veining 16. I. versicolor 'Versicle' OP -- white 17. I. versicolor OP -- alba 18. I. virginica var. shrevei 'Pond Crown Point' x ensata mixed pollen OP 19. I. hookeri coll.. Cape Spear, Newfoundland, Canada -- (syn. setosa ssp. canadensis) 20. I. setosa coll. Korea 21. I. lactea OP -- ex. Issy Lake shores (1600m) Kirghizstan 22. I. lactea OP -- mixed blues and whites 23. I. prismatica OP -- from Wisley 24. I. unguicularis OP -- narrow leaved, subspontaneous in Provence 25. I. cristata OP -- several clones OP 26. I. gracilipes Buko form OP -- white dwarf 27. I. tectorum OP -- blue 28. I. foetidissima 'Dart Hill' OP -- unregistered 29. I. magnifica OP Thank you Alberto, David, Ton, and SIGNA !! Best wishes, Dell Dell Sherk, PBS BX From janemcgary@earthlink.net Wed Dec 3 12:08:43 2008 Message-Id: From: Jane McGary Subject: Marvin Cox Date: Wed, 03 Dec 2008 09:01:55 -0800 >I am forwarding this message posted to the Native Plant Society of >Oregon Discussion List, regarding a prominent bulb enthusiast on the >Pacific Coast. > >FWD: > >The long time lily enthusiast, Marvin Cox, of Roseburg, Oregon passed away >last Friday. > >Marvin grew up near Bandon, Oregon, and was fascinated with the colorful >lilies that inhabited the coast, one of which was the endangered western >lily. Marvin's interest led to his joining the American Lily Society >and he became its youngest member. He spent much time growing and >researching lilies. He grew many varieties and species of unique lilies in >his garden for much of his life. Marvin grew many other unusual, >exotic, and native plants in his garden and it was a delight for anyone who >visited one of his homes. > >Marvin also had a strong interest in Calochortus species. While out in the >field one day in Douglas County he spotted an unusual flower. This turned >out to be a new species of Calochortus and was given the name C. coxii after >him. > >As of late Marvin had been struggling with Parkinson's disease. His wife >Julie took wonderful care of him. > >Marvin has been a long time member of the Native Plant Society of Oregon and >will be sorely missed. > >Sam Friedman From Farmerguys@clearwire.net Wed Dec 3 16:00:30 2008 Message-Id: From: "Paul Machado" Subject: Openings for Saturday workshop in Bakersfield, CA Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2008 13:00:09 -0800 If anyone on the PBS list is interested in tissue culturing and is within travel distance of Bakersfield, CA. you maybe interested in this forwarded message. All the best, Paul Machado & Michael Homick ----- Original Message ----- From: Carol M. Stiff To: abdelkhaber@yahoo.com ; Mohamed El Shaer ; Arlos Anderson ; Bruce Bagnoli ; Chris Dickson ; Laura ONeal ; Mark A. Di Fonzo ; Mercure, Eric ; Michael Homick ; Paul Machado ; Tucson - Lori Dekker Cc: hometissueculture@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, December 02, 2008 8:11 AM Subject: Openings for Saturday workshop in Bakersfield We have 3 openings for the Saturday workshop so if you know of anyone interested in coming to the Bakersfield, California workshop, please have them contact me. Eric Mercure of Paramount Farming will be at the workshop to give a short presentation on his tissue culture lab and then will take us on a tour of his lab. This is the ideal situation for a workshop: to learn about tc, do tc with the limited equipment and then see a real lab in action. Bring your cameras. carol Carol M. Stiff, Ph.D., President and Founder Kitchen Culture Education Technologies, Inc. www.kitchencultureEducation.org and our subsidiary: The Home Tissue Culture Group JOIN AND GET 10% OFF KITS & SUPPLIES www.hometissueculture.org 608-302-2750 FAX 608-868-2851 carol@kitchencultureEducation.org carol@hometissueculture.org "We are a 501(c)(3) non-profit company dedicated to promoting plant science education." From jwaddick@kc.rr.com Thu Dec 4 00:41:54 2008 Message-Id: From: James Waddick Subject: Pacific BX 193 - SIGNA Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2008 23:42:49 -0600 >ON SALE: 2006 Seed of Iris from the Species Iris Group of North America >(SIGNA) >Most iris seed has a very long shelf life. --> $.50 PER PACKET <-- Dear friends, By a strange coincidence, I am one of the seed exchange co-chairs for the Species Iris Group of North America (SIGNA). If you are unfamiliar with this excellent specialty group, visit their newly designed web site at http://signa.org . You will see full information about our seed exchange and membership. A new seed list will be sent to members and on the web site by the end of December. (Still working on it.) Iris seed generally has a long shelf life so seed from 07 or 06 will still have excellent germination. enjoy Jim W. -- Dr. James W. Waddick 8871 NW Brostrom Rd. Kansas City Missouri 64152-2711 USA Ph. 816-746-1949 Zone 5 Record low -23F Summer 100F + From jwaddick@kc.rr.com Thu Dec 4 16:02:41 2008 Message-Id: From: James Waddick Subject: Cryptostephanus Q? Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2008 15:04:40 -0600 Dear Friends, I had a question from a person in Germany who responded to comments on this web site. I suggested he join the group, but is thinking about it. He asks " Is Cryptostephanus densiflorus in cultivation?". As you surely know there are three species in this genus. The commonest is Cryptostephanus vansonii and it looks like a miniature Clivia miniata with white (or pink) flowers. Far less common is Cryptostephanus haemanthoides, a very different looking bulbous plants of semi-desert locations. A very few nurseries offer bulbs. The third and rarest species is Cryptostephanus densiflorus endemic to a small area of Angola. Harold Koopowitz in his book on Clivia suggests it is not in cultivation. Angola has enough social turmoil that it is not open to much botanizing. Can anyone provide an update on this species? Thanks Jim W. -- Dr. James W. Waddick 8871 NW Brostrom Rd. Kansas City Missouri 64152-2711 USA Ph. 816-746-1949 Zone 5 Record low -23F Summer 100F + From jwaddick@kc.rr.com Fri Dec 5 00:09:56 2008 Message-Id: From: James Waddick Subject: Crinum & Fritillaria Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2008 23:06:03 -0600 Dear Iain, A small typo. The real url is: http://www.fritillariaicones.com/ Some real beauties there. Thanks Jim W. -- Dr. James W. Waddick 8871 NW Brostrom Rd. Kansas City Missouri 64152-2711 USA Ph. 816-746-1949 Zone 5 Record low -23F Summer 100F + From jwaddick@kc.rr.com Fri Dec 5 00:09:59 2008 Message-Id: From: James Waddick Subject: BX 192 dormant or ??? Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2008 23:11:44 -0600 >18. Oxalis gracilis (W). T >19. Oxalis purpurea 'Garnet' (W). >20. Oxalis compressa, double form (W). Dear Friends, These bulbs were offered in BX 192. Any suggestions on how to handle these dormant bulbs? They were donated by Alberto Castillo in the Southern Hemisphere and dormant during his summer. Now moved to the Northern Hemisphere, these winter growers are still 'dormant'. They should be in active growth here and now. Should they be planted now and watered or held dry for a few months to complete their dormancy, then planted and allowed to have a short growth period before a long summer dormancy? Curious. Any experiences moving winter growing bulbs from the southern hemisphere to the northern? Thanks Jim W. -- Dr. James W. Waddick 8871 NW Brostrom Rd. Kansas City Missouri 64152-2711 USA Ph. 816-746-1949 Zone 5 Record low -23F Summer 100F + From info@auchgourishbotanicgarden.org Fri Dec 5 05:54:55 2008 Message-Id: <32FF6F2A153C4F73803AD525BF32ECD3@homepc> From: Subject: Dell's listed seed donations Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2008 10:55:04 -0000 Could I point out a wee small error in provenance info, i.e. # 19 the location in New Foundland is Cape Fear, [with good reason to the earlier mariners] NOT Cape Spear. I have this taxon here and it is a lovely and floriferous iris growing to about 30-40 cms planted with me in virtually pure sand, the clump originally of three plants vegetatively increases rather slowly = well behaved, but seeds around quite prolifically = not well behaved if the subject of weeding becomes a trial. This iris will take any level of cold thrown at it, didn't blink at -26C. Iain -- I am using the free version of SPAMfighter. We are a community of 5.7 million users fighting spam. SPAMfighter has removed 36414 of my spam emails to date. Get the free SPAMfighter here: http://www.spamfighter.com/len The Professional version does not have this message From ezeizabotgard@hotmail.com Fri Dec 5 07:01:08 2008 Message-Id: From: Alberto Castillo Subject: BX 192 dormant or ??? Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2008 12:00:57 +0000 Hi Jim: These corms and bulbs I am sending have been dormant for a month or so under very hot conditions. My advice is pot up in very gritty soil give them a first watering take the pots to a cool place with very good light say at 10 C wait, they should resprout during your winter and resume growth according to your Hemisphere they are likely to keep on growing well beyond your spring, do not force them to go dormant. The longer the season of growth the bigger the bulbs and corms obtained. Hope this is of help Best Alberto > Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2008 23:11:44 -0600> To: pbs@lists.ibiblio.org> From: jwaddick@kc.rr.com> Subject: [pbs] BX 192 dormant or ???> > >18. Oxalis gracilis (W). T> >19. Oxalis purpurea 'Garnet' (W).> >20. Oxalis compressa, double form (W).> > > Dear Friends,> These bulbs were offered in BX 192.> > Any suggestions on how to handle these dormant bulbs? They > were donated by Alberto Castillo in the Southern Hemisphere and > dormant during his summer. Now moved to the Northern Hemisphere, > these winter growers are still 'dormant'. They should be in active > growth here and now.> > > Should they be planted now and watered or held dry for a few > months to complete their dormancy, then planted and allowed to have a > short growth period before a long summer dormancy?> > > Curious. Any experiences moving winter growing bulbs from the > southern hemisphere to the northern?> > Thanks Jim W.> > -- > Dr. James W. Waddick> 8871 NW Brostrom Rd.> Kansas City Missouri 64152-2711> USA> Ph. 816-746-1949> Zone 5 Record low -23F> Summer 100F +> > _______________________________________________> pbs mailing list> pbs@lists.ibiblio.org> http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php> http://pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki _________________________________________________________________ Disfrutá los mejores contenidos en MSN Video. http://video.msn.com/?mkt=es-xl From scottc@WaveHill.org Fri Dec 5 14:35:11 2008 Message-Id: From: "Canning, Scott" Subject: BX 192 dormant or? Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2008 14:35:03 -0500 I have some experience with South African winter-growing bulbs doing the hemisphere-switch. Elizabeth Scholtz, Director Emeritus of the Brooklyn Botanic Garden (and incredible global garden diplomat!) is a native of South Africa and would bring me newly-dormant winter-growers in Nov. and Dec. from Cape Town and Kirstenbosch. They were definitely reluctant to switch; I handled as Alberto suggested with a gritty, very free-draining mix, watered in once, keep cool with my other winter growers in a cool greenhouse (50F night; 62F day) and wait for signs of activity. Some would struggle into growth at the end of the cool season (Feb.-early April). Keep them growing as long as possible (June?) and then I'd try to get them started the following Oct.-Nov. with the rest of the winter-growers we had. Some would do well, others struggled, some couldn't make it. Ixias and Sparaxis did OK, Gladioules spp. less well. With Lachenalias, I often had better plants at year 3 from seed than I did trying to get bulbs imported from the southern hemisphere "over the equator". Good luck. Scott Canning Wave Hill Zone 6 with a cool greenhouse in the Bronx -----Original Message----- From: pbs-bounces@lists.ibiblio.org [mailto:pbs-bounces@lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf Of pbs-request@lists.ibiblio.org Sent: Friday, December 05, 2008 1:21 PM To: pbs@lists.ibiblio.org Subject: pbs Digest, Vol 71, Issue 6 Send pbs mailing list submissions to pbs@lists.ibiblio.org To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to pbs-request@lists.ibiblio.org You can reach the person managing the list at pbs-owner@lists.ibiblio.org When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of pbs digest..." List-Post:<mailto:pbs@lists.ibiblio.org> List-Archive:<http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/pbslist> Today's Topics: 1. Cryptostephanus Q? (James Waddick) 2. Re: Crinum & Fritillaria (James Waddick) 3. BX 192 dormant or ??? (James Waddick) 4. Dell's listed seed donations (info@auchgourishbotanicgarden.org) 5. Re: BX 192 dormant or ??? (Alberto Castillo) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Message: 1 Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2008 15:04:40 -0600 From: James Waddick Subject: [pbs] Cryptostephanus Q? To: Pacific Bulb Society Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Dear Friends, I had a question from a person in Germany who responded to comments on this web site. I suggested he join the group, but is thinking about it. He asks " Is Cryptostephanus densiflorus in cultivation?". As you surely know there are three species in this genus. The commonest is Cryptostephanus vansonii and it looks like a miniature Clivia miniata with white (or pink) flowers. Far less common is Cryptostephanus haemanthoides, a very different looking bulbous plants of semi-desert locations. A very few nurseries offer bulbs. The third and rarest species is Cryptostephanus densiflorus endemic to a small area of Angola. Harold Koopowitz in his book on Clivia suggests it is not in cultivation. Angola has enough social turmoil that it is not open to much botanizing. Can anyone provide an update on this species? Thanks Jim W. -- Dr. James W. Waddick 8871 NW Brostrom Rd. Kansas City Missouri 64152-2711 USA Ph. 816-746-1949 Zone 5 Record low -23F Summer 100F + ------------------------------ Message: 2 Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2008 23:06:03 -0600 From: James Waddick Subject: Re: [pbs] Crinum & Fritillaria To: Pacific Bulb Society Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Dear Iain, A small typo. The real url is: http://www.fritillariaicones.com/ Some real beauties there. Thanks Jim W. -- Dr. James W. Waddick 8871 NW Brostrom Rd. Kansas City Missouri 64152-2711 USA Ph. 816-746-1949 Zone 5 Record low -23F Summer 100F + ------------------------------ Message: 3 Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2008 23:11:44 -0600 From: James Waddick Subject: [pbs] BX 192 dormant or ??? To: Pacific Bulb Society Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" >18. Oxalis gracilis (W). T >19. Oxalis purpurea 'Garnet' (W). >20. Oxalis compressa, double form (W). Dear Friends, These bulbs were offered in BX 192. Any suggestions on how to handle these dormant bulbs? They were donated by Alberto Castillo in the Southern Hemisphere and dormant during his summer. Now moved to the Northern Hemisphere, these winter growers are still 'dormant'. They should be in active growth here and now. Should they be planted now and watered or held dry for a few months to complete their dormancy, then planted and allowed to have a short growth period before a long summer dormancy? Curious. Any experiences moving winter growing bulbs from the southern hemisphere to the northern? Thanks Jim W. -- Dr. James W. Waddick 8871 NW Brostrom Rd. Kansas City Missouri 64152-2711 USA Ph. 816-746-1949 Zone 5 Record low -23F Summer 100F + ------------------------------ Message: 4 Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2008 10:55:04 -0000 From: Subject: [pbs] Dell's listed seed donations To: Message-ID: <32FF6F2A153C4F73803AD525BF32ECD3@homepc> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Could I point out a wee small error in provenance info, i.e. # 19 the location in New Foundland is Cape Fear, [with good reason to the earlier mariners] NOT Cape Spear. I have this taxon here and it is a lovely and floriferous iris growing to about 30-40 cms planted with me in virtually pure sand, the clump originally of three plants vegetatively increases rather slowly = well behaved, but seeds around quite prolifically = not well behaved if the subject of weeding becomes a trial. This iris will take any level of cold thrown at it, didn't blink at -26C. Iain -- I am using the free version of SPAMfighter. We are a community of 5.7 million users fighting spam. SPAMfighter has removed 36414 of my spam emails to date. Get the free SPAMfighter here: http://www.spamfighter.com/len The Professional version does not have this message ------------------------------ Message: 5 Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2008 12:00:57 +0000 From: Alberto Castillo Subject: Re: [pbs] BX 192 dormant or ??? To: Pacific Bulb Society Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Hi Jim: These corms and bulbs I am sending have been dormant for a month or so under very hot conditions. My advice is pot up in very gritty soil give them a first watering take the pots to a cool place with very good light say at 10 C wait, they should resprout during your winter and resume growth according to your Hemisphere they are likely to keep on growing well beyond your spring, do not force them to go dormant. The longer the season of growth the bigger the bulbs and corms obtained. Hope this is of help Best Alberto > Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2008 23:11:44 -0600> To: pbs@lists.ibiblio.org> From: jwaddick@kc.rr.com> Subject: [pbs] BX 192 dormant or ???> > >18. Oxalis gracilis (W). T> >19. Oxalis purpurea 'Garnet' (W).> >20. Oxalis compressa, double form (W).> > > Dear Friends,> These bulbs were offered in BX 192.> > Any suggestions on how to handle these dormant bulbs? They > were donated by Alberto Castillo in the Southern Hemisphere and > dormant during his summer. Now moved to the Northern Hemisphere, > these winter growers are still 'dormant'. They should be in active > growth here and now.> > > Should they be planted now and watered or held dry for a few > months to complete their dormancy, then planted and allowed to have a > short growth period before a long summer dormancy?> > > Curious. Any experiences moving winter growing bulbs from the > southern hemisphere to the northern?> > Thanks Jim W.> > -- > Dr. James W. Waddick> 8871 NW Brostrom Rd.> Kansas City Missouri 64152-2711> USA> Ph. 8 16-746-1949> Zone 5 Record low -23F> Summer 100F +> > _______________________________________________> pbs mailing list> pbs@lists.ibiblio.org> http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php> http://pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki _________________________________________________________________ Disfrut? los mejores contenidos en MSN Video. http://video.msn.com/?mkt=es-xl ------------------------------ _______________________________________________ pbs mailing list pbs@lists.ibiblio.org http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php End of pbs Digest, Vol 71, Issue 6 ********************************** From ezeizabotgard@hotmail.com Fri Dec 5 15:38:17 2008 Message-Id: From: Alberto Castillo Subject: BX 192 dormant or? Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2008 20:38:02 +0000 Hi Scott: Thanks for your interesting comments. A common mistake is to try that adult corms change Hemispheres. Inmature corms are a lot more flexible and adapt a lot more readily to favorable conditions for growth. Regards Alberto> Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2008 14:35:03 -0500> From: scottc@WaveHill.org> To: pbs@lists.ibiblio.org> Subject: Re: [pbs] BX 192 dormant or?> > I have some experience with South African winter-growing bulbs doing the> hemisphere-switch. Elizabeth Scholtz, Director Emeritus of the Brooklyn> Botanic Garden (and incredible global garden diplomat!) is a native of> South Africa and would bring me newly-dormant winter-growers in Nov. and> Dec. from Cape Town and Kirstenbosch. They were definitely reluctant to> switch; I handled as Alberto suggested with a gritty, very free-draining> mix, watered in once, keep cool with my other winter growers in a cool> greenhouse (50F night; 62F day) and wait for signs of activity. Some> would struggle into growth at the end of the cool season (Feb.-early> April). Keep them growing as long as possible (June?) and then I'd try> to get them started the following Oct.-Nov. with the rest of the> winter-growers we had. Some would do well, others struggled, some> couldn't make it. Ixias and Sparaxis did OK, Gladioules spp. less well.> With Lachenalias, I often had better plants at year 3 from seed than I> did trying to get bulbs imported from the southern hemisphere "over the> equator". Good luck.> Scott Canning> Wave Hill> Zone 6 with a cool greenhouse in the Bronx> > -----Original Message-----> From: pbs-bounces@lists.ibiblio.org> [mailto:pbs-bounces@lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf Of> pbs-request@lists.ibiblio.org> Sent: Friday, December 05, 2008 1:21 PM> To: pbs@lists.ibiblio.org> Subject: pbs Digest, Vol 71, Issue 6> > Send pbs mailing list submissions to> pbs@lists.ibiblio.org> > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit> http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to> pbs-request@lists.ibiblio.org> > You can reach the person managing the list at> pbs-owner@lists.ibiblio.org> > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific> than "Re: Contents of pbs digest..."> > > List-Post:<mailto:pbs@lists.ibiblio.org>> List-Archive:<http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/pbslist>> > Today's Topics:> > 1. Cryptostephanus Q? (James Waddick)> 2. Re: Crinum & Fritillaria (James Waddick)> 3. BX 192 dormant or ??? (James Waddick)> 4. Dell's listed seed donations (info@auchgourishbotanicgarden.org)> 5. Re: BX 192 dormant or ??? (Alberto Castillo)> > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------> > Message: 1> Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2008 15:04:40 -0600> From: James Waddick > Subject: [pbs] Cryptostephanus Q?> To: Pacific Bulb Society > Message-ID: > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed"> > Dear Friends,> I had a question from a person in Germany who responded to > comments on this web site. I suggested he join the group, but is > thinking about it.> > He asks " Is Cryptostephanus densiflorus in cultivation?".> > As you surely know there are three species in this genus. The > commonest is Cryptostephanus vansonii and it looks like a miniature > Clivia miniata with white (or pink) flowers.> > Far less common is Cryptostephanus haemanthoides, a very > different looking bulbous plants of semi-desert locations. A very > few nurseries offer bulbs.> > The third and rarest species is Cryptostephanus densiflorus > endemic to a small area of Angola. Harold Koopowitz in his book on > Clivia suggests it is not in cultivation. Angola has enough social > turmoil that it is not open to much botanizing.> > Can anyone provide an update on this species? Thanks> Jim W.> > -- > Dr. James W. Waddick> 8871 NW Brostrom Rd.> Kansas City Missouri 64152-2711> USA> Ph. 816-746-1949> Zone 5 Record low -23F> Summer 100F +> > > > ------------------------------> > Message: 2> Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2008 23:06:03 -0600> From: James Waddick > Subject: Re: [pbs] Crinum & Fritillaria> To: Pacific Bulb Society > Message-ID: > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed"> > Dear Iain,> A small typo. The real url is:> http://www.fritillariaicones.com/> > Some real beauties there. Thanks Jim W.> > > -- > Dr. James W. Waddick> 8871 NW Brostrom Rd.> Kansas City Missouri 64152-2711> USA> Ph. 816-746-1949> Zone 5 Record low -23F> Summer 100F +> > > > ------------------------------> > Message: 3> Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2008 23:11:44 -0600> From: James Waddick > Subject: [pbs] BX 192 dormant or ???> To: Pacific Bulb Society > Message-ID: > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed"> > >18. Oxalis gracilis (W). T> >19. Oxalis purpurea 'Garnet' (W).> >20. Oxalis compressa, double form (W).> > > Dear Friends,> These bulbs were offered in BX 192.> > Any suggestions on how to handle these dormant bulbs? They > were donated by Alberto Castillo in the Southern Hemisphere and > dormant during his summer. Now moved to the Northern Hemisphere, > these winter growers are still 'dormant'. They should be in active > growth here and now.> > > Should they be planted now and watered or held dry for a few > months to complete their dormancy, then planted and allowed to have a > short growth period before a long summer dormancy?> > > Curious. Any experiences moving winter growing bulbs from the > southern hemisphere to the northern?> > Thanks Jim W.> > -- > Dr. James W. Waddick> 8871 NW Brostrom Rd.> Kansas City Missouri 64152-2711> USA> Ph. 816-746-1949> Zone 5 Record low -23F> Summer 100F +> > > > ------------------------------> > Message: 4> Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2008 10:55:04 -0000> From: > Subject: [pbs] Dell's listed seed donations> To: > Message-ID: <32FF6F2A153C4F73803AD525BF32ECD3@homepc>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"> > Could I point out a wee small error in provenance info, i.e. # 19 the> location in New Foundland is Cape Fear, [with good reason to the earlier> mariners] NOT Cape Spear.> > I have this taxon here and it is a lovely and floriferous iris growing> to about 30-40 cms planted with me in virtually pure sand, the clump> originally of three plants vegetatively increases rather slowly = well> behaved, but seeds around quite prolifically = not well behaved if the> subject of weeding becomes a trial. This iris will take any level of> cold thrown at it, didn't blink at -26C.> > Iain> > -- > I am using the free version of SPAMfighter.> We are a community of 5.7 million users fighting spam.> SPAMfighter has removed 36414 of my spam emails to date.> Get the free SPAMfighter here: http://www.spamfighter.com/len> > The Professional version does not have this message> > > ------------------------------> > Message: 5> Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2008 12:00:57 +0000> From: Alberto Castillo > Subject: Re: [pbs] BX 192 dormant or ???> To: Pacific Bulb Society > Message-ID: > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"> > > Hi Jim: > These corms and bulbs I am sending have been dormant for a> month or so under very hot conditions. > > My advice is > pot up in very gritty soil> give them a first watering> take the pots to a cool place with very good light say at 10 C> wait, they should resprout during your winter and resume growth> according to your Hemisphere> they are likely to keep on growing well beyond your spring, do not force> them to go dormant. The longer the season of growth the bigger the bulbs> and corms obtained. > > Hope this is of help> > Best> Alberto> > > > > > > Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2008 23:11:44 -0600> To: pbs@lists.ibiblio.org> From:> jwaddick@kc.rr.com> Subject: [pbs] BX 192 dormant or ???> > >18. Oxalis> gracilis (W). T> >19. Oxalis purpurea 'Garnet' (W).> >20. Oxalis> compressa, double form (W).> > > Dear Friends,> These bulbs were offered> in BX 192.> > Any suggestions on how to handle these dormant bulbs? They> > were donated by Alberto Castillo in the Southern Hemisphere and >> dormant during his summer. Now moved to the Northern Hemisphere, > these> winter growers are still 'dormant'. They should be in active > growth> here and now.> > > Should they be planted now and watered or held dry> for a few > months to complete their dormancy, then planted and allowed> to have a > short growth period before a long summer dormancy?> > >> Curious. Any experiences moving winter growing bulbs from the > southern> hemisphere to the northern?> > Thanks Jim W.> > -- > Dr. James W.> Waddick> 8871 NW Brostrom Rd.> Kansas City Missouri 64152-2711> USA> Ph.> 8> 16-746-1949> Zone 5 Record low -23F> Summer 100F +> >> _______________________________________________> pbs mailing list>> pbs@lists.ibiblio.org> http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php>> http://pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki> _________________________________________________________________> Disfrut? los mejores contenidos en MSN Video.> http://video.msn.com/?mkt=es-xl> > ------------------------------> > _______________________________________________> pbs mailing list> pbs@lists.ibiblio.org> http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php> > > End of pbs Digest, Vol 71, Issue 6> **********************************> _______________________________________________> pbs mailing list> pbs@lists.ibiblio.org> http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php> http://pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki _________________________________________________________________ Disfrutá los mejores contenidos en MSN Video. http://video.msn.com/?mkt=es-xl From hornig@earthlink.net Fri Dec 5 15:46:59 2008 Message-Id: From: "Ellen Hornig" Subject: BX 192 dormant or? Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2008 15:50:43 -0500 I love Alberto's observation about immature corms "learning" faster than mature ones (see below). I've been reading about phenotypic plasticity this year (the quality that lets an organism of a given genotype alter its appearance, physiology, whatever (i.e. phenotype) in response to different environmental stresses), and it's absolutely fascinating. It amounts to saying, in laypeople's terms, that yes, indeed, a plant does "learn" (and this triggers short-run adaptation). It's great stuff, and a lot of what we observe in our gardens/greenhouses makes sense when we view it as evidence of plasticity. For an introduction to the subject that is somewhat accessible, I recommend Massimo Pigliucci, Phenotypic Plasticity: Beyond Nature and Nurture (Baltimore: Johns Hopkins, 2001). Ellen Ellen Hornig Seneca Hill Perennials 3712 County Route 57 Oswego NY 13126 USA www.senecahillperennials.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "Alberto Castillo" To: "Pacific Bulb Society" Sent: Friday, December 05, 2008 3:38 PM Subject: Re: [pbs] BX 192 dormant or? Hi Scott: Thanks for your interesting comments. A common mistake is to try that adult corms change Hemispheres. Inmature corms are a lot more flexible and adapt a lot more readily to favorable conditions for growth. Regards Alberto From toadlily@olywa.net Fri Dec 5 18:44:59 2008 Message-Id: <4939BD30.8060509@olywa.net> From: Laura & Dave Subject: Pacific BX 193 - SIGNA Date: Fri, 05 Dec 2008 15:45:52 -0800 James Waddick wrote: > By a strange coincidence, I am one of the seed exchange > co-chairs for the Species Iris Group of North America (SIGNA). Also by a strange coincidence, I'm one of the member recipients of seed from SIGNA, with a question!! Should the seed be planted now, or can it be held until early spring. I live in the maritime Pacific Northwest (Western Washington, USA to be more exact). Or is this one of those questions that depends on what I have? I'm assuming I'm at the bottom of the learning curve concerning Iris germination, as I haven't had as great a success as desired, especially with the bearded Iris. I'd like to echo that SIGNA is another great group, with a very informative newsletter, that comes pre-punched for a three ring binder (I just wish someone would adjust the hole punch!!... hint hint). Thanks for any advise offered, Dave Brastow - zone 7A they say : we had our first frost last night, after several weeks of day temps in the 50's and 60's (F) and nights in the upper 30's to mid 40's From leo@possi.org Fri Dec 5 18:56:34 2008 Message-Id: <7eec62e5b63c2cd765043d7923fe7f58.squirrel@www.possi.org> From: "Leo A. Martin" Subject: Openings for Saturday workshop... Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2008 15:56:32 -0800 (PST) > We have 3 openings for the Saturday [tissue culture] > workshop so if you know of anyone > interested in coming to the Bakersfield, California workshop, please have > them contact me. I took Carol's tissue culture workshop a few years back in Phoenix. I can attest it was excellent, informative, and everybody there learned the techniques. If you can make it, you should. Leo Martin Phoenix Arizona USA From leo@possi.org Fri Dec 5 19:13:27 2008 Message-Id: From: "Leo A. Martin" Subject: Species Iris seed Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2008 16:13:26 -0800 (PST) Hello James, I looked at the SIGNA (Species Iris Group North America) site you provided. I couldn't find any information on how to sprout species Iris seed. Is there a place you can show us? Thanks, Leo Martin Phoenix Arizona USA From HHeaven77@aol.com Fri Dec 5 19:50:16 2008 Message-Id: <8CB2553B45991AF-1790-564@MBLK-M17.sysops.aol.com> From: hheaven77@aol.com Subject: Polyxena ensifolia Date: Fri, 05 Dec 2008 19:50:01 -0500 This fall the weather in Phoenix has been wonderful, nights are cool but not cold with warm, sunny days and even had a rain shower! Beside the flush of oxalis flowers, I observed a Polyxena ensifolia blooming. The flowers are said to be white but mine are a light pinkish lilac color. The smell is reminiscent of hyacinth. Lovely little plant! Celeste Gornick Sonoran Desert From lmf@beautifulblooms.ab.ca Fri Dec 5 21:39:04 2008 Message-Id: <000401c9574b$bbbc66e0$4001a8c0@lindaj6m8zgi2a> From: "Linda Foulis" Subject: Pacific BX 193 - SIGNA Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2008 19:38:33 -0700 Dave said, " as I haven't had as great a success as desired, especially with the bearded Iris." Dave check out the link below and scroll down to reply #23 by Rafa. http://www.srgc.org.uk/smf/index.php?topic=847.15 I tried this method with some iris seed that had been sitting in a pot for 2 years and had great success. It's a bit tricky and you should try it on some extra seeds first till you get the hang of it, (I had a lot of tb iris seeds to practice on), but it works like a charm. I've had much better success using this method than waiting and waiting and waiting for some of these iris seeds to germinate. Good luck. Linda Okotoks, AB Canada Zone 3 It's winter! Brrrrr! From rvanderhoff@sbcglobal.net Fri Dec 5 22:33:26 2008 Message-Id: <999165.21420.qm@web81008.mail.mud.yahoo.com> From: Ron Vanderhoff Subject: BX 192 dormant or ??? Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2008 19:33:24 -0800 (PST) Alberto's comments are spot on. I have received several Oxalis shipments from Alberto and other sources in the southern Hemisphere. I might add that I would underline his comment about holding them in a dry state (after an initial watering). My experience is that if you were to commence regular watering at the same time as your existing Oxalis they likely would not sprout for a month or eight weeks anyway. During this time you might run the risk of rot. Grown outdoors in natural conditions in Southern California I begin watering my South African Oxalis about the first of October. However, those recently received from the Southern hemisphere get a little longer rest, usually getting water about two months later, if it hasn't already rained on them in the meantime. Even if they were watered along with my other Oxals they would lay dormant until about December or January anyway. I have several Oxalis from Christiaan van Schalkwyk of South Africa that I am turning right now and, as usual, this is how they are behaving. Ron Vanderhoff Southern California ________________________________ From: Alberto Castillo To: Pacific Bulb Society Sent: Friday, December 5, 2008 4:00:57 AM Subject: Re: [pbs] BX 192 dormant or ??? Hi Jim:         These corms and bulbs I am sending have been dormant for a month or so under very hot conditions.         My advice is pot up in very gritty soil give them a first watering take the pots to a cool place with very good light say at 10 C wait, they should resprout during your winter and resume growth according to your Hemisphere they are likely to keep on growing well beyond your spring, do not force them to go dormant. The longer the season of growth the bigger the bulbs and corms obtained. Hope this is of help Best Alberto > Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2008 23:11:44 -0600> To: pbs@lists.ibiblio.org> From: jwaddick@kc.rr.com> Subject: [pbs] BX 192 dormant or ???> > >18. Oxalis gracilis (W). T> >19. Oxalis purpurea 'Garnet' (W).> >20. Oxalis compressa, double form (W).> > > Dear Friends,> These bulbs were offered in BX 192.> > Any suggestions on how to handle these dormant bulbs? They > were donated by Alberto Castillo in the Southern Hemisphere and > dormant during his summer. Now moved to the Northern Hemisphere, > these winter growers are still 'dormant'. They should be in active > growth here and now.> > > Should they be planted now and watered or held dry for a few > months to complete their dormancy, then planted and allowed to have a > short growth period before a long summer dormancy?> > > Curious. Any experiences moving winter growing bulbs from the > southern hemisphere to the northern?> > Thanks Jim W.> > -- > Dr. James W. Waddick> 8871 NW Brostrom Rd.> Kansas City Missouri 64152-2711> USA> Ph. 816-746-1949> Zone 5 Record low -23F> Summer 100F +> > _______________________________________________> pbs mailing list> pbs@lists.ibiblio.org> http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php> http://pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki _________________________________________________________________ Disfrutá los mejores contenidos en MSN Video. http://video.msn.com/?mkt=es-xl _______________________________________________ pbs mailing list pbs@lists.ibiblio.org http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php http://pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki From robertwerra@pacific.net Sat Dec 6 01:51:16 2008 Message-Id: <009901c9576f$501a3150$b8296ad0@popbob> From: Subject: BX 192 Dormant? Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2008 22:53:14 -0800 I have tried switching So African winter growing corms(mainly moraeas) based on science or philosophy( I was a philosophy major.) Based on science, I would do the plant, water and cool and keep going as long as possible if they sprouted. Based on logic and philosophy, I would put them in sand and vermiculite in the living room at house temperature for 9 months until the following fall. I would speak to them regularly, telling them we were having a drought and they should just remain dormant for a year like they would do at home in a drought. Then I would plant them the following fall and water them, telling them the drought was over and it's OK to sprout. Success was 50% in each group. I think Harold Koopowitz would have the greatest experience based on his years at the UC Irvine Arboretum So. African collection. Bob Werra From aquaflorasa@telkomsa.net Sat Dec 6 02:26:24 2008 Message-Id: <002701c95773$efc3c550$f5b8ef9b@privatevwbcohy> From: "Aqua Flora" Subject: Cryptostephanus Date: Sat, 6 Dec 2008 09:22:32 +0200 Dear James, As far as I know Cryptostephanus densiflorus is not in Cultivation, yet. But on it's distribution I can add that they have also been recorded from extreme northern Namibia, so perhaps there is still hope of it being introduced into cultivation! I am happy to report that my plants of C. haemanthoides purchased from Rare Exotics are doing well and all have produced new leaves and roots. Let's hope I can get them to flower. Happy growing! Pieter van der Walt South Africa From martin.stone@wku.edu Sat Dec 6 13:39:09 2008 Message-Id: <493AC6CB.10109@wku.edu> From: Martin Stone Subject: Research Question on Zephyranthes grandiflora Date: Sat, 06 Dec 2008 12:39:07 -0600 My name is Martin Stone and my student, Shelton Slack, and I are working on a research project growing _Zephyranthes grandiflora_. We are at Western Kentucky University in Bowling Green, about an hour north of Nashville, TN. We experience warm summers and cold winters and are located in USDA hardiness zone 6 which means in an average winter we will experience at least one low temperature between 0 deg F and negative 10 deg. F. We have divided my large, old, potted clump into smaller pots and are growing them in a greenhouse with temps no cooler than 65 deg. F. We want to observe their flowering and try to answer the old question about what induces flowering. They are growing well after having been potted since September. We would like to know: 1. Is there a period after transplanting during which flowering does not occur? How long do we wait? 2. Is flowering sensitive to the daylength? 3. and the big question: Does anyone have clues into the nature of the flowering? There is not much scientific literature out there and the two main sources are a little dated and conflict. On a personal note, I have grown a potfull for the last dozen years from a single corm. They are all clones of the original plant, which is a bonus in this study. They stay outside until winter, when I bring them into the greenhouse. But in the summer, I water my pot with the hose every day and I see sporadic flowering. After a rain, there is a burst of flowers a day or so afterwards. I believe the flower buds are pre-formed and staying dormant until something about a rain event triggers them to elongate and open. Is it temperature fluctuation associated with a rain event? Is is cool rain water? Is it a drop in barometric pressure (seems unlikely but who knows?). What do you think and what are your observations? Thanks in Advance and I look forward to your advice and thoughts. My Best, Martin -- Martin Stone, Ph.D. Assistant Professor, Leichhardt Professor of Horticulture Department of Agriculture Western Kentucky University 1906 College Heights Blvd. #41066 Bowling Green, KY 42101-1066 Office (270) 745-5963 Fax (270) 745-5972 From jshields@indy.net Sat Dec 6 15:21:48 2008 Message-Id: <5.1.0.14.2.20081206151422.01cf8408@pop.indy.net> From: "J.E. Shields" Subject: Research Question on Zephyranthes grandiflora Date: Sat, 06 Dec 2008 15:22:47 -0500 Hi Martin, That sounds like an interesting problem. There is clearly something associated with rainfall that triggers bloom in rain lilies. I too grow my rain lilies in pots here in central Indiana. The pots spend the summers outdoors in full sun and the winters inside a greenhouse, usually dry and out of the way under a bench. Their winter treatment is very probably suboptimal to say the least. In summer, I can get markedly increased flowering of my potted rain lilies by standing the pots in saucers and keeping the saucers full of water. Even so, a natural rainfall does a better job of triggering flowering. I wish you luck in your study. I will be eager to hear what conclusions you can draw when it is finished; I'm sure others in this group will be equally interested. Best regards, Jim Shields in Westfield, Indiana -- a suburb of Indianapolis. At 12:39 PM 12/6/2008 -0600, you wrote: >My name is Martin Stone and my student, Shelton Slack, and I are working >on a research project growing _Zephyranthes grandiflora_. We are at >Western Kentucky University in Bowling Green, about an hour north of >Nashville, TN. We experience warm summers and cold winters and are >located in USDA hardiness zone 6 which means in an average winter we >will experience at least one low temperature between 0 deg F and >negative 10 deg. F. We have divided my large, old, potted clump into >smaller pots and are growing them in a greenhouse with temps no cooler >than 65 deg. F. We want to observe their flowering and try to answer >the old question about what induces flowering. They are growing well >after having been potted since September. We would like to know: > >1. Is there a period after transplanting during which flowering does >not occur? How long do we wait? >2. Is flowering sensitive to the daylength? >3. and the big question: Does anyone have clues into the nature of the >flowering? There is not much scientific literature out there and the >two main sources are a little dated and conflict. > >On a personal note, I have grown a potfull for the last dozen years from >a single corm. They are all clones of the original plant, which is a >bonus in this study. They stay outside until winter, when I bring them >into the greenhouse. But in the summer, I water my pot with the hose >every day and I see sporadic flowering. After a rain, there is a burst >of flowers a day or so afterwards. I believe the flower buds are >pre-formed and staying dormant until something about a rain event >triggers them to elongate and open. Is it temperature fluctuation >associated with a rain event? Is is cool rain water? Is it a drop in >barometric pressure (seems unlikely but who knows?). What do you think >and what are your observations? > >Thanks in Advance and I look forward to your advice and thoughts. >My Best, >Martin > >-- >Martin Stone, Ph.D. >Assistant Professor, >Leichhardt Professor of Horticulture >Department of Agriculture >Western Kentucky University >1906 College Heights Blvd. #41066 >Bowling Green, KY 42101-1066 >Office (270) 745-5963 >Fax (270) 745-5972 ************************************************* Jim Shields USDA Zone 5 Shields Gardens, Ltd. P.O. Box 92 WWW: http://www.shieldsgardens.com/ Westfield, Indiana 46074, USA Tel. ++1-317-867-3344 or toll-free 1-866-449-3344 in USA From prallen2@peoplepc.com Sat Dec 6 19:52:44 2008 Message-Id: <10749012.1228611154709.JavaMail.root@elwamui-darkeyed.atl.sa.earthlink.net> From: patty allen Subject: Research Question on Zephyranthes grandiflora Date: Sat, 6 Dec 2008 19:52:34 -0500 (EST) Hi Martin. I have always heard that it is the chemicals (nitrogen?) in the lightening and thunderstorms that causes a large burst of blooms to emerge. In my experience just as a gardener, if the rainlilies are allowed to stay dry for a period of days (2-3 weeks), then a very generous amount of watering will induce another flush of blooms. This goes on sporadically throughout the growing season, sometimes into the fall months here in southeast Texas. Patty Humble, Texas, about 20 miles north of Houston, Texas -----Original Message----- >From: "J.E. Shields" >Sent: Dec 6, 2008 3:22 PM >To: Pacific Bulb Society >Subject: Re: [pbs] Research Question on Zephyranthes grandiflora > >Hi Martin, > >That sounds like an interesting problem. There is clearly something >associated with rainfall that triggers bloom in rain lilies. > >I too grow my rain lilies in pots here in central Indiana. The pots spend >the summers outdoors in full sun and the winters inside a greenhouse, >usually dry and out of the way under a bench. Their winter treatment is >very probably suboptimal to say the least. In summer, I can get markedly >increased flowering of my potted rain lilies by standing the pots in >saucers and keeping the saucers full of water. Even so, a natural rainfall >does a better job of triggering flowering. > >I wish you luck in your study. I will be eager to hear what conclusions >you can draw when it is finished; I'm sure others in this group will be >equally interested. > >Best regards, >Jim Shields >in Westfield, Indiana -- a suburb of Indianapolis. > > >At 12:39 PM 12/6/2008 -0600, you wrote: >>My name is Martin Stone and my student, Shelton Slack, and I are working >>on a research project growing _Zephyranthes grandiflora_. We are at >>Western Kentucky University in Bowling Green, about an hour north of >>Nashville, TN. We experience warm summers and cold winters and are >>located in USDA hardiness zone 6 which means in an average winter we >>will experience at least one low temperature between 0 deg F and >>negative 10 deg. F. We have divided my large, old, potted clump into >>smaller pots and are growing them in a greenhouse with temps no cooler >>than 65 deg. F. We want to observe their flowering and try to answer >>the old question about what induces flowering. They are growing well >>after having been potted since September. We would like to know: >> >>1. Is there a period after transplanting during which flowering does >>not occur? How long do we wait? >>2. Is flowering sensitive to the daylength? >>3. and the big question: Does anyone have clues into the nature of the >>flowering? There is not much scientific literature out there and the >>two main sources are a little dated and conflict. >> >>On a personal note, I have grown a potfull for the last dozen years from >>a single corm. They are all clones of the original plant, which is a >>bonus in this study. They stay outside until winter, when I bring them >>into the greenhouse. But in the summer, I water my pot with the hose >>every day and I see sporadic flowering. After a rain, there is a burst >>of flowers a day or so afterwards. I believe the flower buds are >>pre-formed and staying dormant until something about a rain event >>triggers them to elongate and open. Is it temperature fluctuation >>associated with a rain event? Is is cool rain water? Is it a drop in >>barometric pressure (seems unlikely but who knows?). What do you think >>and what are your observations? >> >>Thanks in Advance and I look forward to your advice and thoughts. >>My Best, >>Martin >> >>-- >>Martin Stone, Ph.D. >>Assistant Professor, >>Leichhardt Professor of Horticulture >>Department of Agriculture >>Western Kentucky University >>1906 College Heights Blvd. #41066 >>Bowling Green, KY 42101-1066 >>Office (270) 745-5963 >>Fax (270) 745-5972 > >************************************************* >Jim Shields USDA Zone 5 Shields Gardens, Ltd. >P.O. Box 92 WWW: http://www.shieldsgardens.com/ >Westfield, Indiana 46074, USA >Tel. ++1-317-867-3344 or toll-free 1-866-449-3344 in USA > > >_______________________________________________ >pbs mailing list >pbs@lists.ibiblio.org >http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php >http://pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki ________________________________________ PeoplePC Online A better way to Internet http://www.peoplepc.com From ptyerman@ozemail.com.au Sat Dec 6 20:07:22 2008 Message-Id: <7b9j6e$8h73vt@outbound.icp-qv1-irony-out4.iinet.net.au> From: "Paul T." Subject: Research Question on Zephyranthes grandiflora Date: Sun, 07 Dec 2008 12:07:04 +1100 > >1. Is there a period after transplanting during which flowering does >not occur? How long do we wait? >2. Is flowering sensitive to the daylength? >3. and the big question: Does anyone have clues into the nature of the >flowering? There is not much scientific literature out there and the >two main sources are a little dated and conflict. > Martin, I seem to recall that someone here in Australia keeps their rainlilies dry for 6 weeks then soaks the pot in water overnight, triggering flowering within the next few days. The keep this cycle going throughout the summer months, getting heaps of flowers every 6 weeks. I've never tried this myself, but apparently it worked for him. Now if I could just remember who it was so I could put you in touch with them. Cheers. Paul T. Canberra, Australia - USDA Zone Equivalent approx. 8/9 Growing an eclectic collection of plants from all over the world including Aroids, Crocus, Cyclamen, Erythroniums, Fritillarias, Galanthus, Irises, Trilliums (to name but a few) and just about anything else that doesn't move!! From tony@plantdelights.com Sun Dec 7 12:03:49 2008 Message-Id: <493C01EA.3030002@plantdelights.com> From: Tony Avent Subject: Research Question on Zephyranthes grandiflora Date: Sun, 07 Dec 2008 12:03:38 -0500 Martin: There seems to be two factors at work with rain lilies. First, each species and hybrid has a flowering window, outside of which they will not flower under any circumstances...at least not normal circumstances. Within the flowering window, there is a factor, moisture, but more likely atmospheric pressure, that causes the plants to flower. If it was only rainfall, then plants grown in covered greenhouses wouldn't flower at the same time as plants growing outdoors and exposed to the rain. I know that Carl at Yucca Do had cataloged the flowering window of each rain lily, but it doesn't seem to be posted on their site currently. Good luck. Tony Avent Plant Delights Nursery @ Juniper Level Botanic Garden 9241 Sauls Road Raleigh, North Carolina 27603 USA Minimum Winter Temps 0-5 F Maximum Summer Temps 95-105F USDA Hardiness Zone 7b email tony@plantdelights.com website http://www.plantdelights.com phone 919 772-4794 fax 919 772-4752 "I consider every plant hardy until I have killed it myself...at least three times" - Avent patty allen wrote: > Hi Martin. > I have always heard that it is the chemicals (nitrogen?) in the lightening and thunderstorms that causes a large burst of blooms to emerge. > In my experience just as a gardener, if the rainlilies are allowed to stay dry for a period of days (2-3 weeks), then a very generous amount of watering will induce another flush of blooms. This goes on sporadically throughout the growing season, sometimes into the fall months here in southeast Texas. > > Patty > Humble, Texas, about 20 miles north of Houston, Texas > > -----Original Message----- > >> From: "J.E. Shields" >> Sent: Dec 6, 2008 3:22 PM >> To: Pacific Bulb Society >> Subject: Re: [pbs] Research Question on Zephyranthes grandiflora >> >> Hi Martin, >> >> That sounds like an interesting problem. There is clearly something >> associated with rainfall that triggers bloom in rain lilies. >> >> I too grow my rain lilies in pots here in central Indiana. The pots spend >> the summers outdoors in full sun and the winters inside a greenhouse, >> usually dry and out of the way under a bench. Their winter treatment is >> very probably suboptimal to say the least. In summer, I can get markedly >> increased flowering of my potted rain lilies by standing the pots in >> saucers and keeping the saucers full of water. Even so, a natural rainfall >> does a better job of triggering flowering. >> >> I wish you luck in your study. I will be eager to hear what conclusions >> you can draw when it is finished; I'm sure others in this group will be >> equally interested. >> >> Best regards, >> Jim Shields >> in Westfield, Indiana -- a suburb of Indianapolis. >> >> >> At 12:39 PM 12/6/2008 -0600, you wrote: >> >>> My name is Martin Stone and my student, Shelton Slack, and I are working >>> on a research project growing _Zephyranthes grandiflora_. We are at >>> Western Kentucky University in Bowling Green, about an hour north of >>> Nashville, TN. We experience warm summers and cold winters and are >>> located in USDA hardiness zone 6 which means in an average winter we >>> will experience at least one low temperature between 0 deg F and >>> negative 10 deg. F. We have divided my large, old, potted clump into >>> smaller pots and are growing them in a greenhouse with temps no cooler >>> than 65 deg. F. We want to observe their flowering and try to answer >>> the old question about what induces flowering. They are growing well >>> after having been potted since September. We would like to know: >>> >>> 1. Is there a period after transplanting during which flowering does >>> not occur? How long do we wait? >>> 2. Is flowering sensitive to the daylength? >>> 3. and the big question: Does anyone have clues into the nature of the >>> flowering? There is not much scientific literature out there and the >>> two main sources are a little dated and conflict. >>> >>> On a personal note, I have grown a potfull for the last dozen years from >>> a single corm. They are all clones of the original plant, which is a >>> bonus in this study. They stay outside until winter, when I bring them >>> into the greenhouse. But in the summer, I water my pot with the hose >>> every day and I see sporadic flowering. After a rain, there is a burst >>> of flowers a day or so afterwards. I believe the flower buds are >>> pre-formed and staying dormant until something about a rain event >>> triggers them to elongate and open. Is it temperature fluctuation >>> associated with a rain event? Is is cool rain water? Is it a drop in >>> barometric pressure (seems unlikely but who knows?). What do you think >>> and what are your observations? >>> >>> Thanks in Advance and I look forward to your advice and thoughts. >>> My Best, >>> Martin >>> >>> -- >>> Martin Stone, Ph.D. >>> Assistant Professor, >>> Leichhardt Professor of Horticulture >>> Department of Agriculture >>> Western Kentucky University >>> 1906 College Heights Blvd. #41066 >>> Bowling Green, KY 42101-1066 >>> Office (270) 745-5963 >>> Fax (270) 745-5972 >>> >> ************************************************* >> Jim Shields USDA Zone 5 Shields Gardens, Ltd. >> P.O. Box 92 WWW: http://www.shieldsgardens.com/ >> Westfield, Indiana 46074, USA >> Tel. ++1-317-867-3344 or toll-free 1-866-449-3344 in USA >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> pbs mailing list >> pbs@lists.ibiblio.org >> http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php >> http://pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki >> > > > ________________________________________ > PeoplePC Online > A better way to Internet > http://www.peoplepc.com > _______________________________________________ > pbs mailing list > pbs@lists.ibiblio.org > http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php > http://pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki > > From tversted@email.dk Sun Dec 7 14:17:36 2008 Message-Id: From: "Martin Ravn Tversted" Subject: Kniphofia outside South Africa Date: Sun, 7 Dec 2008 20:18:04 +0100 Im currently writing an article for the Danish Rock Garden Society about the genus Kniphofia. I have good litterature and first hand experience with many of the hardy south african species and two species from further north. However, I really need some references to the species outside South Africa. Especially the species from Yemen and those from Madagascar is not some I can find much about. But also the species from the rest of Africa are appearently absent from generel cultivation or am I wrong? I need more technical descriptions of these species. So please, if anyone is having pdf-files or suggestions to futher reading please let me know. Also, if anyone is having first hand experience with those species I mention, feed free to either write me or discuss it here. Another problem is the many cultivars. I can easily list of good number of hybrids that I find usefull in the garden but for the compleateness in it I cannot find any lists or reference to the history of them. Who made what hybrid? Are there any registre or database about this? tversted at email.dk Martin Tversted Northern Nursery Denmark From dkramb@badbear.com Sun Dec 7 14:59:53 2008 Message-Id: <493C2B4D.2010200@badbear.com> From: Dennis Kramb Subject: Pacific BX 193 - SIGNA Date: Sun, 07 Dec 2008 15:00:13 -0500 Laura & Dave wrote: > James Waddick wrote: > >> By a strange coincidence, I am one of the seed exchange >> co-chairs for the Species Iris Group of North America (SIGNA). >> > Also by a strange coincidence, I'm one of the member recipients of seed > from SIGNA, with a question!! Should the seed be planted now, or can it > be held until early spring. I live in the maritime Pacific Northwest > (Western Washington, USA to be more exact). Or is this one of those > questions that depends on what I have? I'm assuming I'm at the bottom > of the learning curve concerning Iris germination, as I haven't had as > great a success as desired, especially with the bearded Iris. > Well as webmaster for SIGNA I guess we have all the bases covered!!! LOL. But to answer your question, in my experience iris seeds benefit from cool moist stratification during the winter months. I live in Zone 6 (very near to Zone 5) and I plant my seeds in December or January so they can get exposure to plenty of freeze/thaw cycles and inevitably there is a flush of germination in spring. I realize it may not freeze in your garden, but I think the seeds would respond the same way if you were to plant them now. > I'd like to echo that SIGNA is another great group, with a very > informative newsletter, that comes pre-punched for a three ring binder > (I just wish someone would adjust the hole punch!!... hint hint). > Oh my! I never realized other people had that problem. Hahaha... glad to know I'm not crazy! Dennis in snowy Ohio (hey that would be a cool name for a town... Snowy, Ohio) From aaron_floden@yahoo.com Tue Dec 9 10:38:02 2008 Message-Id: <764329.56640.qm@web34301.mail.mud.yahoo.com> From: aaron floden Subject: Kniphofia outside South Africa Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2008 07:37:55 -0800 (PST) Martin,    I suggest http://botanicus.org, http://www.biodiversitylibrary.org/, http://scholar.google.com/, and http://books.google.com/bkshp?tab=sp&q=. The first two are huge collections of older works that have been digitized. The latter two are just Google search engines where you can find extensive amounts of free literature. Google books should have many of the old Kew Bulletins available for free. Many Kniphofia were published in those. Curtis's BM is also available. If you have a public library or University Library that has access to JSTOR that subscribes to Kew Bulletin you can get the more "recent" A revision of the tropical species of Kniphofia (Liliaceae). Kew Bull. 28. (3): 465-483 (1973), and also a new species published in 1980 from Malawi. If you have not already checked you should go to http://apps.kew.org/wcsp/home.do and search for Kniphofia. This will give you a list of all species published and those valid in bold. At least this will give a starting point of where to focus your search and save some time if revisions have been done.  All the best,    Aaron Floden   --- On Mon, 12/8/08, Martin Ravn Tversted wrote: From: Martin Ravn Tversted Subject: [pbs] Kniphofia outside South Africa To: pbs@lists.ibiblio.org Date: Monday, December 8, 2008, 3:18 AM So please, if anyone is having pdf-files or suggestions to futher reading please let me know. Also, if anyone is having first hand experience with those species I mention, feed free to either write me or discuss it here. i From christopherwhitehouse@rhs.org.uk Tue Dec 9 10:39:44 2008 Message-Id: <35853A08CFFB814F8A5A1185D8630994370B39@vsmail2.rhs.net> From: Subject: Kniphofia outside South Africa Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2008 15:39:56 -0000 Having written the account for the Flora of Tropical East Africa and collected a number on expeditions for Kew, I am relatively familiar with them in the wild (at least Kenya and Tanzania). There are certainly flora accounts for all the tropical African species, but possibly not for the solitary Madagascan or Yemen species. There is also a more popular article on Kniphofia thomsonii, one of the most common tropical Kniphofia in cultivation, by Grant-Downton, R. 1997. Notes on _Kniphofia thomsonii_ in cultivation and in the wild. _The New Plantsman_ 4(3):148-156. On the other hand, I have only ever grown two tropical ones in the UK, both of which are also in the current Kniphofia trial at Wisley: the aforementioned Kniphofia thomsonii var. thomsonii and the Ethiopian K. foliosa. The former is on the edge of hardiness in this part of Britain and is deciduous but often pulls through the winter. The latter is a very easy species to grow, and though it can be shy flowering it is one of the better species to grow for foliage. It is also one of the first flowering in the year and I am investigating the apparent close relationship between it and the cultivar 'Atlanta'. Other species that occur outside of South Africa that are in cultivation in Britain are K. linearifolia (although this also occurs in SA and so is possibly selections from there) and apparently K. pumila (possibly unique in that the flowers open from the top down). As for cultivars, we have over 700 names on our horticultural database of species and cultivars (http://www.rhs.org.uk/databases/summary.asp - although web version is slightly out of date with only 450). A good reference for the commoner ones, although now somewhat dated, is Taylor, J. 1985. _Kniphofia_ - a Survey. _The Plantsman_ 7(3):129-160. Regards, Dr Christopher Whitehouse Keeper of the Herbarium RHS Garden Wisley WOKING Surrey GU23 6QB Tel: 01483 224234 Fax: 01483 211750 Message: 1 Date: Sun, 7 Dec 2008 20:18:04 +0100 From: "Martin Ravn Tversted" Subject: [pbs] Kniphofia outside South Africa To: Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Im currently writing an article for the Danish Rock Garden Society about the genus Kniphofia. I have good litterature and first hand experience with many of the hardy south african species and two species from further north. However, I really need some references to the species outside South Africa. Especially the species from Yemen and those from Madagascar is not some I can find much about. But also the species from the rest of Africa are appearently absent from generel cultivation or am I wrong? I need more technical descriptions of these species. So please, if anyone is having pdf-files or suggestions to futher reading please let me know. Also, if anyone is having first hand experience with those species I mention, feed free to either write me or discuss it here. Another problem is the many cultivars. I can easily list of good number of hybrids that I find usefull in the garden but for the compleateness in it I cannot find any lists or reference to the history of them. Who made what hybrid? Are there any registre or database about this? tversted at email.dk Martin Tversted Northern Nursery Denmark From j.grimshaw@virgin.net Tue Dec 9 12:16:25 2008 Message-Id: <004901c95a21$dec801c0$0401a8c0@MAINPC> From: "John Grimshaw" Subject: Kniphofia outside South Africa Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2008 17:16:26 -0000 Like Chris Whitehouse I am very familiar with Kniphofia thomsonii in the wild in Kenya and Tanzania, and have also grown it in the garden for the past 15 yrs or so. Two varieties are recognised: var. thomsonii, widespread, with glabrous corollas, and var. snowdenii (western Kenya, eastern Uganda) with papillose corollas, giving a unique, curiously hairy look. Typical var. snowdenii looks very different to var. thomsonii, but at least in the Cherangani Hills of western Kenya they intermingle and intergrade and one can find plants with only slightly papillose corollas. It is usually orange-flowered (opening from dull red buds) but can be yellow - a good 'hairy' yellow one appeared in seedlings raised from a collection I made in 1998 and I believe is still in cultivation in western England. I have a couple of orange 'hairy' clones here. Var. thomsonii grows in open places in the upper parts of the Afromontane forest on the East African mountains, and extends out into the ericaceous/grassland vegetation, almost into true alpine territory. In the forest it is usually stoloniferous in the grass & among other herbs, with loose racemes of usually orange flowers from red buds. It can be up to 1.5-1.8 m tall in lush places in the forest, but 40-50 cm is more usual. Above the treeline it tends to be more clump-forming, and the inflorescences are tighter and more poker-like. On Kilimanjaro at least I have seen it with good red flowers all the way down, at the edge of the alpine zone at about 3400 m, and at about 2700 m in grassland with yellow flowers. I grew this clone until last year, but lost it last winter when I didn't get it established in a pot early enough. It's a frustrating plant to grow, not being quite hardy enough, and not being quite rewarding enough, to make it worth persevering with. Over the years I've grown material from southern Tanzania through to Mt Kenya & they've all slipped away. The two Cherangani clones of var. snowdenii I still have are maintained in pots in the polytunnel, although I have clumps outside as well at present. Not one inflorescence in 2008! The species in general is very stoloniferous, which makes it handy for propagating, but few of the shoots ever get robust enough to flower, it seems. The usual clone in cultivation has been called K. snowdenii for decades - I think it was introduced originally by Patrick Synge from Mt Elgon in the 1930s, but it has perfectly glabrous corollas, so is var. thomsonii. It also has paler orange flowers than most. It is hardy in a warm sheltered place and has certainly managed persist all this time. Ethiopian Kniphofia are in a mess and neither Marais' Kew Bulletin article on Tropical African Kniphofia nor the more recent accounts in Flora of Ethiopia and Eritrea, and in the little book Flowers of Ethiopia & Eritrea: Aloes and other Lilies (S. Demissew et al. 2003), are very useful. They all include two quite different species under the name K. foliosa. The problem, I presume, is that Kniphofia make terrible herbarium specimens. Once my current book is out of the way my first project will be to attempt to work out what is going on there and I have blocked out 3 weeks of the diary for next autumn in the hope of being able to afford to go to Ethiopia for some fieldwork when they're flowering in late September. I grow one of the two taxa here - it has survived two winters outside in reasonably good shape, and in a milder garden than here might actually do quite well in southern England. I am not familiar with the cultivated stock of K. foliosa mentioned by Chris, but wouldn't trust the identity of any poker without wild provenance for a moment. John Grimshaw Dr. John M. Grimshaw Sycamore Cottage Colesbourne Cheltenham Gloucestershire GL53 9NP Tel. 01242 870567 From j.grimshaw@virgin.net Tue Dec 9 12:33:02 2008 Message-Id: <007401c95a24$3102f650$0401a8c0@MAINPC> From: "John Grimshaw" Subject: Kniphofia in South Africa Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2008 17:33:03 -0000 While thinking about confused/confusing Kniphofia, can anyone provide a picture of what they believe to be Kniphofia albomontana from the Drakensberg? I can't get 'my head around' this name (sorry, vulgar expression, but it expresses the thought!) John Grimshaw Dr. John M. Grimshaw Sycamore Cottage Colesbourne Cheltenham Gloucestershire GL53 9NP Tel. 01242 870567 From tversted@email.dk Tue Dec 9 13:47:17 2008 Message-Id: From: "Martin Ravn Tversted" Subject: Kniphofia outside South Africa Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2008 19:47:20 +0100 Thanks so far, I will look into the informations I have got here and give a more detailed ansver. Would just mention that I have seedlings and young plants of K pumila, foliosa and one mature thomsonii of unknown origin. The two first I cannot say anything about their true identity. They are from seeds received from South Africa. Time will tell. http://public.fotki.com/Northern-Nursery/kniphofia/dsc0091.html For some of the other plants I have in cultivation some pictures: http://public.fotki.com/Northern-Nursery/kniphofia/ Some of the species names have not been tested yet. Martin From tom@evolution-plants.com Tue Dec 9 14:10:20 2008 Message-Id: From: Tom Mitchell Subject: Advice on Mozambique Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2008 19:08:30 +0000 The correspondence over the last couple of days regarding Kniphofia reminded me that I have been meaning to ask whether anyone on this forum has experience of plant hunting in Mozambique? I will be there for two weeks in the second half of January, visiting a friend. We will be spending a lot of time on the coast north of Maputo but there should also be time to spend a few days in the highlands in the north west of the country. I imagine that there might be interesting species of Kniphofia, Gladiolus, Eucomis, Crocosmia, Dierama and others growing there. I'd be hugely grateful for any tips on where to go to look for these plants - time will be very short. Falling as it does between the well-studied floras of South Africa and tropical east Africa, I'm not sure how much has been written about it. Can anyone recommend anything that might serve as any kind of field guide? I'm aware of the online flora of mozambique, but this is very much a work in progress. Feel free to respond on this forum or to write to me directly if you can help. From christopherwhitehouse@rhs.org.uk Wed Dec 10 03:57:23 2008 Message-Id: <35853A08CFFB814F8A5A1185D8630994370B3A@vsmail2.rhs.net> From: Subject: Kniphofia outside South Africa Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2008 08:57:36 -0000 >I am not familiar with the cultivated stock of K. foliosa mentioned >by Chris, but wouldn't trust the identity of any poker without wild >provenance for a moment. My stock has very good wild provenance, which is why I am fascinated by the similarity to K. 'Atlanta'. Chris Dr Christopher Whitehouse Keeper of the Herbarium RHS Garden Wisley WOKING Surrey GU23 6QB Tel: 01483 224234 Fax: 01483 211750 From msittner@mcn.org Wed Dec 10 11:10:42 2008 Message-Id: <5.2.0.9.2.20081210064419.03628aa8@mail.mcn.org> From: Mary Sue Ittner Subject: Ferraria/Spelling rules Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2008 08:10:06 -0800 I've been working on the wiki Ferraria pages thinking to add a species we saw in 2006 in Namaqualand. http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki/index.php/Ferraria I have the revision from 1979 so thought I could spend some time pouring over it and figure things out. Of course it wasn't so simple since there have been changes since 1979. The plants we saw that were considered in the revision to be a subspecies of Ferraria uncinata were elevated in 2004 to species level. This species, Ferraria macrochlamys , has pale yellow flowers and distinctive leaves, which have strongly crisped or wavy margins. Audrey Cain gave me permission to add pictures of Ferraria schaeferi clearly showing it to be much different from some plants I grow by that name that I had decided were really F. crispa. I've added some pictures of some very dark Ferraria crispa flowers we saw in Tulbagh and at Lion's Head. One of the pictures if you look closely even has a fly pollinating the flowers. My next challenge was learning that in 2005 Goldblatt and Manning named a new species, Ferraria variabilis, that apparently was considered a subspecies of F. divaricata. Both have a wide cup. The new species was published in Bothalia 35: 73 (2005). If anyone has access to this I'd be interested in understanding more about it. I found online the Corrections and Additions to Cape Plants updated in May 2008. http://posa.sanbi.org/flora/flora_cp/CapePlantsUpdate.pdf I'm always thrilled when information like this is added free to the public. I have the book so it is nice to see what has changed since it was published in 2000. The additions state about F. divaricata, "revised species circumscription and range." This species is described as having flowers that are brown to maroon with lighter brown margins or golden brown with darker margins and the range is northwest and southwest from Hondeklipbaai to Langebaan. F. variabilis flowers are described as dull yellow, yellow-green or brown, with banded or speckled markings and darker margins. The range is wide for this species: S. Namibia to Clanwilliam, Caldedon to Little Karoo. These descriptions led me to conclude that pictures we took at Villiersdorp and on our way to Middelpos had to be this species instead of F. divaricata as we thought. I'm concluding the same about one of Cameron's pictures as well. I'm wondering if most of the plants we grow as F. divaricata are really this species and would like to better understand how they are different. Does anyone think the beautiful close-up picture I added from Alan Horstmann and the plants we saw at the Karoo Desert National Botanical Garden pictured on the wiki are F. variabilis instead of F. divaricata? Finally I noted that Kew is spelling one of the species differently than it is spelled in all my books, including the Iris book that was just published and the revision where it was named. This species is spelled Ferraria densipunctulata by Kew and Ferraria densepunctulata by every one else. I emailed a question about the spelling and got this response: "The "i" is correct. The code states that a connecting vowel should be corrected to "i" Cheers, Rafaël Govaerts" If you do a Google search you will find that almost all of the hits you will get spell it as it was published. Some names are changed later to the original spelling. Babiana vanzijliae was quoted in the Babiana revision as the correct spelling since that was how it was first published even though most of the books have been spelling it as Babiana vanzyliae. If as a wiki administrator I can be allowed a rant... it seems to me that if the purpose of having a botanical name is so we will all know that we are talking about the same plant, changing the spelling later so that the same plant is spelled slightly differently just brings about confusion. eg. Besides my earlier example there is always Tropaeolum tricolor versus Tropaeolum tricolorum Sorry this has gotten so long, but for those of you who are still with me and can help I'd appreciate help with the F. divaricata pictures and understanding about the spelling rules. Thanks. Mary Sue From othonna@gmail.com Wed Dec 10 11:44:12 2008 Message-Id: <8e8da5260812100844j2a6ee826t6c39812082648175@mail.gmail.com> From: Hannon Subject: Ferraria/Spelling rules Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2008 08:44:09 -0800 Mary Sue, I think the take home message about spelling scientific plant names is that there are indeed rules, even if they may be convoluted or arcane at times. At one time I thought that any male honorific specific epithet whose root ends in "r" or a vowel carries only one "i" but this is not strictly the case. Under Ferraria a ssp. "nortierii" (as spelled on the wiki) reminded me of this; I believe this should be "nortieri" as in Oxalis and Haemanthus. Sometimes convention officially changes also, as "lanceifolius" to "lancifolius" and so on. Sometimes a name is mistakenly spelled in its original publication, as Anthurium ernesti, which is properly A. ernestii. This is an example of an orthographic error. The botanical code is only familiar to me in a general way but spelling issues I think are almost always resolved by referring to the rules and applying them; controversies or "going to committee" is uncommon. I would think most of the latter are "global changes" rather than specific cases for a particular plant. One of the confusing aspects of Latinization is the conversion of surnames. Your Babiana vanziliae may be an example. Others are Euphorbia macvaughii, named after Rogers McVaugh, and one that has always bothered me, Anthurium sanctifidense. The last example means "Anthurium from a sanctified place" when in fact the author's intention was to indicate that it hails from Santa Fe, Panama! I look forward to reading your excursion into Tropaeolum tricolor(um), another vexing case. Dylan Hannon On 10/12/2008, Mary Sue Ittner wrote: > I've been working on the wiki Ferraria pages thinking to add a species we > saw in 2006 in Namaqualand. > http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki/index.php/Ferraria > I have the revision from 1979 so thought I could spend some time pouring > over it and figure things out. Of course it wasn't so simple since there > have been changes since 1979. The plants we saw that were considered in the > revision to be a subspecies of Ferraria uncinata were elevated in 2004 to > species level. This species, Ferraria macrochlamys , has pale yellow > flowers and distinctive leaves, which have strongly crisped or wavy margins. > > Audrey Cain gave me permission to add pictures of Ferraria schaeferi > clearly showing it to be much different from some plants I grow by that > name that I had decided were really F. crispa. > > I've added some pictures of some very dark Ferraria crispa flowers we saw > in Tulbagh and at Lion's Head. One of the pictures if you look closely even > has a fly pollinating the flowers. > > My next challenge was learning that in 2005 Goldblatt and Manning named a > new species, Ferraria variabilis, that apparently was considered a > subspecies of F. divaricata. Both have a wide cup. The new species was > published in Bothalia 35: 73 (2005). If anyone has access to this I'd be > interested in understanding more about it. I found online the Corrections > and Additions to Cape Plants updated in May 2008. > http://posa.sanbi.org/flora/flora_cp/CapePlantsUpdate.pdf > I'm always thrilled when information like this is added free to the public. > I have the book so it is nice to see what has changed since it was > published in 2000. The additions state about F. divaricata, "revised > species circumscription and range." This species is described as having > flowers that are brown to maroon with lighter brown margins or golden brown > with darker margins and the range is northwest and southwest from > Hondeklipbaai to Langebaan. > > F. variabilis flowers are described as dull yellow, yellow-green or brown, > with banded or speckled markings and darker margins. The range is wide for > this species: S. Namibia to Clanwilliam, Caldedon to Little Karoo. These > descriptions led me to conclude that pictures we took at Villiersdorp and > on our way to Middelpos had to be this species instead of F. divaricata as > we thought. I'm concluding the same about one of Cameron's pictures as > well. I'm wondering if most of the plants we grow as F. divaricata are > really this species and would like to better understand how they are > different. Does anyone think the beautiful close-up picture I added from > Alan Horstmann and the plants we saw at the Karoo Desert National Botanical > Garden pictured on the wiki are F. variabilis instead of F. divaricata? > > Finally I noted that Kew is spelling one of the species differently than it > is spelled in all my books, including the Iris book that was just published > and the revision where it was named. This species is spelled Ferraria > densipunctulata by Kew and Ferraria densepunctulata by every one else. I > emailed a question about the spelling and got this response: > "The "i" is correct. The code states that a connecting vowel should be > corrected to "i" > Cheers, > Rafaël Govaerts" > If you do a Google search you will find that almost all of the hits you > will get spell it as it was published. Some names are changed later to the > original spelling. Babiana vanzijliae was quoted in the Babiana revision as > the correct spelling since that was how it was first published even though > most of the books have been spelling it as Babiana vanzyliae. If as a wiki > administrator I can be allowed a rant... it seems to me that if the purpose > of having a botanical name is so we will all know that we are talking about > the same plant, changing the spelling later so that the same plant is > spelled slightly differently just brings about confusion. > eg. Besides my earlier example there is always Tropaeolum tricolor versus > Tropaeolum tricolorum > > Sorry this has gotten so long, but for those of you who are still with me > and can help I'd appreciate help with the F. divaricata pictures and > understanding about the spelling rules. Thanks. > > Mary Sue > > _______________________________________________ > pbs mailing list > pbs@lists.ibiblio.org > http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php > http://pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki > From bonaventure@optonline.net Wed Dec 10 11:47:09 2008 Message-Id: From: bonaventure@optonline.net Subject: Something for Moraea lovers! Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2008 16:47:07 +0000 (GMT) Reminds me of seeing a picture of strings of threaded Ophrys tubers, thousands of them, harvested from the wild in Turkey to make salep. Painful to see, now that they are very rare in much of their range. I've had a few that I obsessively doted over yet only managed to coax out of them weak winter growth on windowsills and under lights and eventual death before normal summer dormancy, so its all very heartbreaking. Bonaventure Magrys -----Original Message----- Date: Tue, 2 Dec 2008 12:36:40 +1100 From: "Carolyn Fra" Subject: Re: [pbs] Something for Moraea lovers! To: "'Pacific Bulb Society'" Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Hi, Jim, :o) That is not something that I could bear to watch, LOL! Carolyn (Tasmania, Australia) From faeden4444@sbcglobal.net Wed Dec 10 16:23:18 2008 Message-Id: <767275.12648.qm@web83602.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> From: Marilyn Pekasky Subject: Ferraria/Spelling rules Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2008 13:23:09 -0800 (PST) Mary Sue: I don't have Bothalia, but I did find this in a Google search of books:  http://books.google.com/books?id=uG71ye3wQY8C&pg=PA108&dq=Ferraria+variabilis Hope it helps, even if the entry is short. Marilyn ________________________________ From: Mary Sue Ittner To: pbs@lists.ibiblio.org Sent: Wednesday, December 10, 2008 8:10:06 AM Subject: [pbs] Ferraria/Spelling rules I've been working on the wiki Ferraria pages thinking to add a species we saw in 2006 in Namaqualand. http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki/index.php/Ferraria I have the revision from 1979 so thought I could spend some time pouring over it and figure things out. Of course it wasn't so simple since there have been changes since 1979. The plants we saw that were considered in the revision to be a subspecies of Ferraria uncinata were elevated in 2004 to species level. This species, Ferraria macrochlamys , has pale yellow flowers and distinctive leaves, which have strongly crisped or wavy margins. Audrey Cain gave me permission to add  pictures of Ferraria schaeferi clearly showing it to be much different from some plants I grow by that name that I had decided were really F. crispa. I've added some pictures of some very dark Ferraria crispa flowers we saw in Tulbagh and at Lion's Head. One of the pictures if you look closely even has a fly pollinating the flowers. My next challenge was learning that in 2005 Goldblatt and Manning named a new species, Ferraria variabilis,  that apparently was considered a subspecies of F. divaricata. Both have a wide cup. The new species was published in Bothalia 35: 73 (2005). If anyone has access to this I'd be interested in understanding more about it. I found online the Corrections and Additions to Cape Plants updated in May 2008. http://posa.sanbi.org/flora/flora_cp/CapePlantsUpdate.pdf I'm always thrilled when information like this is added free to the public. I have the book so it is nice to see what has changed since it was published in 2000. The additions state about F. divaricata, "revised species circumscription and range." This species is described as having flowers that are brown to maroon with lighter brown margins or golden brown with darker margins and the range is northwest and southwest from Hondeklipbaai to Langebaan. F. variabilis flowers are described as dull yellow, yellow-green or brown, with banded or speckled markings and darker margins. The range is wide for this species:  S. Namibia to Clanwilliam, Caldedon to Little Karoo.  These descriptions led me to conclude that pictures we took at Villiersdorp and on our way to Middelpos had to be this species instead of F. divaricata as we thought. I'm concluding the same about one of Cameron's pictures as well.  I'm wondering if most of the plants we grow as F. divaricata are really this species and would like to better understand how they are different. Does anyone think the beautiful close-up picture I added from Alan Horstmann and the plants we saw at the Karoo Desert National Botanical Garden pictured on the wiki are F. variabilis instead of F. divaricata? Finally I noted that Kew is spelling one of the species differently than it is spelled in all my books, including the Iris book that was just published and the revision where it was named. This species is spelled Ferraria densipunctulata by Kew and Ferraria densepunctulata by every one else. I emailed a question about the spelling and got this response: "The "i" is correct. The code states that a connecting vowel should be corrected to "i" Cheers, Rafaël Govaerts" If you do a Google search you will find that almost all of the hits you will get spell it as it was published. Some names are changed later to the original spelling. Babiana vanzijliae was quoted in the Babiana revision as the correct spelling since that was how it was first published even though most of the books have been spelling it as Babiana vanzyliae.  If as a wiki administrator I can be allowed a rant... it seems to me that if the purpose of having a botanical name is so we will all know that we are talking about the same plant, changing the spelling later so that the same plant is spelled slightly differently just brings about confusion. eg. Besides my earlier example there is always Tropaeolum tricolor  versus Tropaeolum tricolorum Sorry this has gotten so long, but for those of you who are still with me and can help I'd appreciate help with the F. divaricata pictures and understanding about the spelling rules. Thanks. Mary Sue _______________________________________________ pbs mailing list pbs@lists.ibiblio.org http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php http://pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki From jimmckenney@jimmckenney.com Wed Dec 10 19:37:58 2008 Message-Id: <005401c95b29$30671ae0$2f01a8c0@Library> From: "Jim McKenney" Subject: Ferraria/Spelling rules Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2008 19:41:20 -0500 Here is my take on the names Mary Sue mentioned. Densepunctatula is an example of the problem caused by old time botanists who did not always make careful distinctions between parts of speech. In the past authors of names often simply strung out two or more nouns (typically one of the genitive) or other parts of speech to make a compound word. In this particular case, the intention was probably to combine the Latin word (an adverb) “dense” with punctatula to indicate thickly speckled or something like that (assuming that a speckle is a little spot). Had the word been published as dense-punctatula, I think it would have met the requirements of the code. Some of you perhaps know or grow the fern Thelypteris decursive-pinnata. The name is sometimes incorrectly written decursivepinnata, without the hyphen. If you want to write it without the hyphen, it should be decursivipinnata. Modern attempts to standardize nomenclature have rejected most if not all of these compound words formed by the “string them together” method and converted them into compound words formed with the typical connective vowel i for compounds of Latin words (and if you follow the text-book Latin pronunciations as I do, keep in mind that this i is a short i). In Greek words the connective vowel is a short o. In both Latin and Greek these connective vowels are so-called weak vowels and thus frequently change into a different vowel if they end up next to a strong vowel. The practical consequence of this is that you will see words which are obviously compound words, and in which you can recognize the component parts, but nevertheless the connective vowel is not short i or short o. Another practice which began to be common about forty years ago is to base family names on the oblique stem of words and not the nominative stem. Thus the genus Melastoma in older works is placed in the family Melastomaceae, but in modern works the name of the family is built from the oblique stem and is spelled Melastomatacese. The iris family provides another example: the genitive of iris is iridis, and the family name is built on that as Iridaceae. Once you understand this, you might notice other seeming anomalies – and perhaps be able to figure them out for yourself. For instance, Aloe is properly a three syllable word and some of us still write it as Aloë. The letter combination oe in Latin is a diphthong, so without the dieresis you would expect the family name to be spelled Alaceae. But the stem is alo- and the family name is thus Aloaceae. The spelling variations in Dutch names reflect the surprising fact that Dutch, as I understand it, underwent a big spelling standardization as recently as the 1940s. This reform resulted in such old spellings as –ij being written in modern Dutch as y. In the case cited by Mary Sue, the author of the name in question used the old-time spelling and someone attempted to correct it to the modern Dutch spelling. I don’t know what the code says about that, but it should be easy to find out. Similar problems arise when names are transliterated from the Cyrillic alphabet to the Roman alphabet. I suspect that is why generations of western gardeners wrote Allium christophii when they should have been writing A. cristophii. A related problem occurs with names from those languages which do not voice final consonants. For instance, many Russian names end in the patronymic –ov (as in, for instance, Corydalis popovii). When such names are spoken in Russian, the final v is pronounced as an f. For me, this poses a bit of a conundrum with respect to the pronunciation of these names as botanical names: in the botanical specific epithet popovii that v is not in word-final position. Should it be pronounced as a v or as an f? I can’t wait to try this out on a native speaker of Russian. Hannon’s comments on the way a final r is treated reflect the peculiar nature of the sounds represented in different languages by the symbol r. Some of those sounds are true consonantal sounds (and thus get the ii ending) and some are not (and thus get the i ending). It’s been a while since I’ve seen the code (and I have yet to see the current one) and I don’t know if this is spelled out in the code. When I have some free time I’ll try to check it out. With respect to the Tropaeolum name, a quick look at ipni suggests that Tropaeolum tricolorum is not a validly published name and Tropaeolum tricolor is. I can’t help but wonder if someone “corrected” tricolor to tricolorum to match the ending of the genus. Note that the word tricolor is an adjective whose nominative singular forms are the same for all three genders. (I think I might have described it as a noun in an earlier post on this topic – sorry if I did). Less skilled editors often “correct” certain names: Sedum cauticola (which is correct) to Sedum cauticolum (which is not), Platycodon grandiflorus (which is correct) to Platycodon grandiflorum (which is not). There are a lot of ways things can go wrong; I’ve tried most of them myself! I spent the day out in the garden planting bulbs – I’ve still got more to go. It was a perfect day for garden work – mild, temps in the 50s F, overcast and misty, a few rain drops. To those of you to whom I have promised bulbs and seeds, don’t give up! Once I get my grubby, muddy garden clothes on, I don’t leave the garden (indeed, I’m barely allowed into the house in that state). The big freeze up, which old time gardeners in this area placed at December 5, has not yet occurred this year. So I’m on borrowed time, and pushing hard to beat that deadline. For me, there are few pleasures in gardening as sublime as the sense of expectation which sets in and replaces the anxiety surrounding the annual autumnal planting. I’m almost there. Sorry to go on so much: it helps to unwind after a very busy, tiring day. Jim McKenney jimmckenney@jimmckenney.com Montgomery County, Maryland, USA, 39.03871º North, 77.09829º West, USDA zone 7, where Iris unguicularis is blooming freely now: what a treat! My Virtual Maryland Garden http://www.jimmckenney.com BLOG! http://mcwort.blogspot.com/ Webmaster Potomac Valley Chapter, NARGS Editor PVC Bulletin http://www.pvcnargs.org Webmaster Potomac Lily Society http://www.potomaclilysociety.org From othonna@gmail.com Wed Dec 10 21:01:13 2008 Message-Id: <8e8da5260812101801k743b32ebw328beb2a0d5aa6f5@mail.gmail.com> From: Hannon Subject: Ferraria/Spelling rules Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2008 18:01:02 -0800 Jim, I think you mean "densepunctulata", not "densepunctatula". One important aspect that many people do not realize in these cases is that botanical Latin is really a language unto itself and is distinct from, though obviously derived from, classical Latin. Thus confusion can arise even for those with a background in classical Latin. The rules of botanical Latin conform to the specialized needs of botany. This applies to the formation of names as well as Latin diagnoses or formal descriptions in Latin. Dylan On 10/12/2008, Jim McKenney wrote: > Here is my take on the names Mary Sue mentioned. > > Densepunctatula is an example of the problem caused by old time botanists > who did not always make careful distinctions between parts of speech. In the > past authors of names often simply strung out two or more nouns (typically > one of the genitive) or other parts of speech to make a compound word. In > this particular case, the intention was probably to combine the Latin word > (an adverb) "dense" with punctatula to indicate thickly speckled or > something like that (assuming that a speckle is a little spot). Had the word > been published as dense-punctatula, I think it would have met the > requirements of the code. Some of you perhaps know or grow the fern > Thelypteris decursive-pinnata. The name is sometimes incorrectly written > decursivepinnata, without the hyphen. If you want to write it without the > hyphen, it should be decursivipinnata. > > Modern attempts to standardize nomenclature have rejected most if not all of > these compound words formed by the "string them together" method and > converted them into compound words formed with the typical connective vowel > i for compounds of Latin words (and if you follow the text-book Latin > pronunciations as I do, keep in mind that this i is a short i). In Greek > words the connective vowel is a short o. In both Latin and Greek these > connective vowels are so-called weak vowels and thus frequently change into > a different vowel if they end up next to a strong vowel. The practical > consequence of this is that you will see words which are obviously compound > words, and in which you can recognize the component parts, but nevertheless > the connective vowel is not short i or short o. > > Another practice which began to be common about forty years ago is to base > family names on the oblique stem of words and not the nominative stem. Thus > the genus Melastoma in older works is placed in the family Melastomaceae, > but in modern works the name of the family is built from the oblique stem > and is spelled Melastomatacese. The iris family provides another example: > the genitive of iris is iridis, and the family name is built on that as > Iridaceae. > > Once you understand this, you might notice other seeming anomalies – and > perhaps be able to figure them out for yourself. For instance, Aloe is > properly a three syllable word and some of us still write it as Aloë. The > letter combination oe in Latin is a diphthong, so without the dieresis you > would expect the family name to be spelled Alaceae. But the stem is alo- and > the family name is thus Aloaceae. > > > The spelling variations in Dutch names reflect the surprising fact that > Dutch, as I understand it, underwent a big spelling standardization as > recently as the 1940s. This reform resulted in such old spellings as –ij > being written in modern Dutch as y. In the case cited by Mary Sue, the > author of the name in question used the old-time spelling and someone > attempted to correct it to the modern Dutch spelling. I don't know what the > code says about that, but it should be easy to find out. > > Similar problems arise when names are transliterated from the Cyrillic > alphabet to the Roman alphabet. I suspect that is why generations of western > gardeners wrote Allium christophii when they should have been writing A. > cristophii. > > A related problem occurs with names from those languages which do not voice > final consonants. For instance, many Russian names end in the patronymic –ov > (as in, for instance, Corydalis popovii). When such names are spoken in > Russian, the final v is pronounced as an f. For me, this poses a bit of a > conundrum with respect to the pronunciation of these names as botanical > names: in the botanical specific epithet popovii that v is not in word-final > position. Should it be pronounced as a v or as an f? I can't wait to try > this out on a native speaker of Russian. > > Hannon's comments on the way a final r is treated reflect the peculiar > nature of the sounds represented in different languages by the symbol r. > Some of those sounds are true consonantal sounds (and thus get the ii > ending) and some are not (and thus get the i ending). It's been a while > since I've seen the code (and I have yet to see the current one) and I don't > know if this is spelled out in the code. When I have some free time I'll try > to check it out. > > With respect to the Tropaeolum name, a quick look at ipni suggests that > Tropaeolum tricolorum is not a validly published name and Tropaeolum > tricolor is. I can't help but wonder if someone "corrected" tricolor to > tricolorum to match the ending of the genus. Note that the word tricolor is > an adjective whose nominative singular forms are the same for all three > genders. (I think I might have described it as a noun in an earlier post on > this topic – sorry if I did). > > Less skilled editors often "correct" certain names: Sedum cauticola (which > is correct) to Sedum cauticolum (which is not), Platycodon grandiflorus > (which is correct) to Platycodon grandiflorum (which is not). > > There are a lot of ways things can go wrong; I've tried most of them myself! > > > I spent the day out in the garden planting bulbs – I've still got more to > go. It was a perfect day for garden work – mild, temps in the 50s F, > overcast and misty, a few rain drops. To those of you to whom I have > promised bulbs and seeds, don't give up! Once I get my grubby, muddy garden > clothes on, I don't leave the garden (indeed, I'm barely allowed into the > house in that state). The big freeze up, which old time gardeners in this > area placed at December 5, has not yet occurred this year. So I'm on > borrowed time, and pushing hard to beat that deadline. > > For me, there are few pleasures in gardening as sublime as the sense of > expectation which sets in and replaces the anxiety surrounding the annual > autumnal planting. I'm almost there. > > > Sorry to go on so much: it helps to unwind after a very busy, tiring day. > > Jim McKenney > jimmckenney@jimmckenney.com > Montgomery County, Maryland, USA, 39.03871º North, 77.09829º West, USDA zone > 7, where Iris unguicularis is blooming freely now: what a treat! > My Virtual Maryland Garden http://www.jimmckenney.com > BLOG! http://mcwort.blogspot.com/ > > Webmaster Potomac Valley Chapter, NARGS > Editor PVC Bulletin http://www.pvcnargs.org > > Webmaster Potomac Lily Society http://www.potomaclilysociety.org > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > pbs mailing list > pbs@lists.ibiblio.org > http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php > http://pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki > From zigur@hotmail.com Wed Dec 10 21:15:10 2008 Message-Id: From: Tim Harvey Subject: Ferraria/Spelling rules Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2008 18:14:55 -0800 Dylan, Are you sure botanical latin is distinct from classical latin (pronunciation excepted)? Can you provide any examples? T> Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2008 18:01:02 -0800> From: othonna@gmail.com> To: pbs@lists.ibiblio.org> Subject: Re: [pbs] Ferraria/Spelling rules> > Jim,> > I think you mean "densepunctulata", not "densepunctatula".> > One important aspect that many people do not realize in these cases is> that botanical Latin is really a language unto itself and is distinct> from, though obviously derived from, classical Latin. Thus confusion> can arise even for those with a background in classical Latin. The> rules of botanical Latin conform to the specialized needs of botany.> This applies to the formation of names as well as Latin diagnoses or> formal descriptions in Latin.> > Dylan> > > On 10/12/2008, Jim McKenney wrote:> > Here is my take on the names Mary Sue mentioned.> >> > Densepunctatula is an example of the problem caused by old time botanists> > who did not always make careful distinctions between parts of speech. In the> > past authors of names often simply strung out two or more nouns (typically> > one of the genitive) or other parts of speech to make a compound word. In> > this particular case, the intention was probably to combine the Latin word> > (an adverb) "dense" with punctatula to indicate thickly speckled or> > something like that (assuming that a speckle is a little spot). Had the word> > been published as dense-punctatula, I think it would have met the> > requirements of the code. Some of you perhaps know or grow the fern> > Thelypteris decursive-pinnata. The name is sometimes incorrectly written> > decursivepinnata, without the hyphen. If you want to write it without the> > hyphen, it should be decursivipinnata.> >> > Modern attempts to standardize nomenclature have rejected most if not all of> > these compound words formed by the "string them together" method and> > converted them into compound words formed with the typical connective vowel> > i for compounds of Latin words (and if you follow the text-book Latin> > pronunciations as I do, keep in mind that this i is a short i). In Greek> > words the connective vowel is a short o. In both Latin and Greek these> > connective vowels are so-called weak vowels and thus frequently change into> > a different vowel if they end up next to a strong vowel. The practical> > consequence of this is that you will see words which are obviously compound> > words, and in which you can recognize the component parts, but nevertheless> > the connective vowel is not short i or short o.> >> > Another practice which began to be common about forty years ago is to base> > family names on the oblique stem of words and not the nominative stem. Thus> > the genus Melastoma in older works is placed in the family Melastomaceae,> > but in modern works the name of the family is built from the oblique stem> > and is spelled Melastomatacese. The iris family provides another example:> > the genitive of iris is iridis, and the family name is built on that as> > Iridaceae.> >> > Once you understand this, you might notice other seeming anomalies – and> > perhaps be able to figure them out for yourself. For instance, Aloe is> > properly a three syllable word and some of us still write it as Aloë. The> > letter combination oe in Latin is a diphthong, so without the dieresis you> > would expect the family name to be spelled Alaceae. But the stem is alo- and> > the family name is thus Aloaceae.> >> >> > The spelling variations in Dutch names reflect the surprising fact that> > Dutch, as I understand it, underwent a big spelling standardization as> > recently as the 1940s. This reform resulted in such old spellings as –ij> > being written in modern Dutch as y. In the case cited by Mary Sue, the> > author of the name in question used the old-time spelling and someone> > attempted to correct it to the modern Dutch spelling. I don't know what the> > code says about that, but it should be easy to find out.> >> > Similar problems arise when names are transliterated from the Cyrillic> > alphabet to the Roman alphabet. I suspect that is why generations of western> > gardeners wrote Allium christophii when they should have been writing A.> > cristophii.> >> > A related problem occurs with names from those languages which do not voice> > final consonants. For instance, many Russian names end in the patronymic –ov> > (as in, for instance, Corydalis popovii). When such names are spoken in> > Russian, the final v is pronounced as an f. For me, this poses a bit of a> > conundrum with respect to the pronunciation of these names as botanical> > names: in the botanical specific epithet popovii that v is not in word-final> > position. Should it be pronounced as a v or as an f? I can't wait to try> > this out on a native speaker of Russian.> >> > Hannon's comments on the way a final r is treated reflect the peculiar> > nature of the sounds represented in different languages by the symbol r.> > Some of those sounds are true consonantal sounds (and thus get the ii> > ending) and some are not (and thus get the i ending). It's been a while> > since I've seen the code (and I have yet to see the current one) and I don't> > know if this is spelled out in the code. When I have some free time I'll try> > to check it out.> >> > With respect to the Tropaeolum name, a quick look at ipni suggests that> > Tropaeolum tricolorum is not a validly published name and Tropaeolum> > tricolor is. I can't help but wonder if someone "corrected" tricolor to> > tricolorum to match the ending of the genus. Note that the word tricolor is> > an adjective whose nominative singular forms are the same for all three> > genders. (I think I might have described it as a noun in an earlier post on> > this topic – sorry if I did).> >> > Less skilled editors often "correct" certain names: Sedum cauticola (which> > is correct) to Sedum cauticolum (which is not), Platycodon grandiflorus> > (which is correct) to Platycodon grandiflorum (which is not).> >> > There are a lot of ways things can go wrong; I've tried most of them myself!> >> >> > I spent the day out in the garden planting bulbs – I've still got more to> > go. It was a perfect day for garden work – mild, temps in the 50s F,> > overcast and misty, a few rain drops. To those of you to whom I have> > promised bulbs and seeds, don't give up! Once I get my grubby, muddy garden> > clothes on, I don't leave the garden (indeed, I'm barely allowed into the> > house in that state). The big freeze up, which old time gardeners in this> > area placed at December 5, has not yet occurred this year. So I'm on> > borrowed time, and pushing hard to beat that deadline.> >> > For me, there are few pleasures in gardening as sublime as the sense of> > expectation which sets in and replaces the anxiety surrounding the annual> > autumnal planting. I'm almost there.> >> >> > Sorry to go on so much: it helps to unwind after a very busy, tiring day.> >> > Jim McKenney> > jimmckenney@jimmckenney.com> > Montgomery County, Maryland, USA, 39.03871º North, 77.09829º West, USDA zone> > 7, where Iris unguicularis is blooming freely now: what a treat!> > My Virtual Maryland Garden http://www.jimmckenney.com> > BLOG! http://mcwort.blogspot.com/> >> > Webmaster Potomac Valley Chapter, NARGS> > Editor PVC Bulletin http://www.pvcnargs.org> >> > Webmaster Potomac Lily Society http://www.potomaclilysociety.org> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > _______________________________________________> > pbs mailing list> > pbs@lists.ibiblio.org> > http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php> > http://pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki> >> _______________________________________________> pbs mailing list> pbs@lists.ibiblio.org> http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php> http://pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki From jimmckenney@jimmckenney.com Wed Dec 10 21:12:42 2008 Message-Id: <005d01c95b36$70e29970$2f01a8c0@Library> From: "Jim McKenney" Subject: Ferraria/Spelling rules Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2008 21:16:11 -0500 Thanks for the sharp eyes, Dylan. This long day is catching up to me! Jim From othonna@gmail.com Wed Dec 10 22:02:40 2008 Message-Id: <8e8da5260812101902r5ee9c0b8w772176cfb7ae13f6@mail.gmail.com> From: Hannon Subject: Ferraria/Spelling rules Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2008 19:02:28 -0800 Tim, My "Botanical Latin" (William T. Stearn), aka "the bible", is not here with me but I will have a look at it later. My understanding has always been that botanical Latin is specifically a servant of the descriptive plant sciences. As such it has been adapted over the centuries to accommodate a discrete set of needs such as a reliable (if complex) method for creating names and, almost relictually today, the precise, sometimes exhaustive, physical description of taxa. As you know formerly whole floras or taxonomic treatments were written entirely in Latin, and where the line between botanical and classical is drawn in such cases I don't know. One bit of evidence for botanical Latin's "independence" is that it has undergone its own history of changes and adjustments according to its own history and principles. This is a minor example and may not be what you are after, but it is an interesting one. Two names in the California that are often misspelled are Solanum xanti and Agave deserti. If I recall correctly, these honorific epithets follow a rule that when a person's surname is Latin to begin with-- in this case Mssrs. Xantius and Desertius (people's actual names) then the modifying "i" suffix is singular and not doubled as we might otherwise expect. This would seem to be an example of a rule that one would not find in classical Latin, along with many others whose aim is to fortify and stabilize the naming of plants. Also, did not the binomial system itself derive from the need for a more sensible naming system? That would be a unique departing attribute then, really a major one for botanical Latin. Within this scheme critical importance is assigned to authorship and the *valid publication* of names, as well as chronologic priority in publishing. Again, these features would seem to be alien to the classical stuff. Dylan On 10/12/2008, Tim Harvey wrote: > > Dylan, > > Are you sure botanical latin is distinct from classical latin (pronunciation excepted)? > > Can you provide any examples? > > T> Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2008 18:01:02 -0800> From: othonna@gmail.com> To: pbs@lists.ibiblio.org> Subject: Re: [pbs] Ferraria/Spelling rules> > Jim,> > I think you mean "densepunctulata", not "densepunctatula".> > One important aspect that many people do not realize in these cases is> that botanical Latin is really a language unto itself and is distinct> from, though obviously derived from, classical Latin. Thus confusion> can arise even for those with a background in classical Latin. The> rules of botanical Latin conform to the specialized needs of botany.> This applies to the formation of names as well as Latin diagnoses or> formal descriptions in Latin.> > Dylan> > > On 10/12/2008, Jim McKenney wrote:> > Here is my take on the names Mary Sue mentioned.> >> > Densepunctatula is an example of the problem caused by old time botanists> > who did not always make careful distinctions between parts of speech. In the> > past authors of names often simply strung out two or more nouns (typically> > one of the genitive) or other parts of speech to make a compound word. In> > this particular case, the intention was probably to combine the Latin word> > (an adverb) "dense" with punctatula to indicate thickly speckled or> > something like that (assuming that a speckle is a little spot). Had the word> > been published as dense-punctatula, I think it would have met the> > requirements of the code. Some of you perhaps know or grow the fern> > Thelypteris decursive-pinnata. The name is sometimes incorrectly written> > decursivepinnata, without the hyphen. If you want to write it without the> > hyphen, it should be decursivipinnata.> >> > Modern attempts to standardize nomenclature have rejected most if not all of> > these compound words formed by the "string them together" method and> > converted them into compound words formed with the typical connective vowel> > i for compounds of Latin words (and if you follow the text-book Latin> > pronunciations as I do, keep in mind that this i is a short i). In Greek> > words the connective vowel is a short o. In both Latin and Greek these> > connective vowels are so-called weak vowels and thus frequently change into> > a different vowel if they end up next to a strong vowel. The practical> > consequence of this is that you will see words which are obviously compound> > words, and in which you can recognize the component parts, but nevertheless> > the connective vowel is not short i or short o.> >> > Another practice which began to be common about forty years ago is to base> > family names on the oblique stem of words and not the nominative stem. Thus> > the genus Melastoma in older works is placed in the family Melastomaceae,> > but in modern works the name of the family is built from the oblique stem> > and is spelled Melastomatacese. The iris family provides another example:> > the genitive of iris is iridis, and the family name is built on that as> > Iridaceae.> >> > Once you understand this, you might notice other seeming anomalies – and> > perhaps be able to figure them out for yourself. For instance, Aloe is> > properly a three syllable word and some of us still write it as Aloë. The> > letter combination oe in Latin is a diphthong, so without the dieresis you> > would expect the family name to be spelled Alaceae. But the stem is alo- and> > the family name is thus Aloaceae.> >> >> > The spelling variations in Dutch names reflect the surprising fact that> > Dutch, as I understand it, underwent a big spelling standardization as> > recently as the 1940s. This reform resulted in such old spellings as –ij> > being written in modern Dutch as y. In the case cited by Mary Sue, the> > author of the name in question used the old-time spelling and someone> > attempted to correct it to the modern Dutch spelling. I don't know what the> > code says about that, but it should be easy to find out.> >> > Similar problems arise when names are transliterated from the Cyrillic> > alphabet to the Roman alphabet. I suspect that is why generations of western> > gardeners wrote Allium christophii when they should have been writing A.> > cristophii.> >> > A related problem occurs with names from those languages which do not voice> > final consonants. For instance, many Russian names end in the patronymic –ov> > (as in, for instance, Corydalis popovii). When such names are spoken in> > Russian, the final v is pronounced as an f. For me, this poses a bit of a> > conundrum with respect to the pronunciation of these names as botanical> > names: in the botanical specific epithet popovii that v is not in word-final> > position. Should it be pronounced as a v or as an f? I can't wait to try> > this out on a native speaker of Russian.> >> > Hannon's comments on the way a final r is treated reflect the peculiar> > nature of the sounds represented in different languages by the symbol r.> > Some of those sounds are true consonantal sounds (and thus get the ii> > ending) and some are not (and thus get the i ending). It's been a while> > since I've seen the code (and I have yet to see the current one) and I don't> > know if this is spelled out in the code. When I have some free time I'll try> > to check it out.> >> > With respect to the Tropaeolum name, a quick look at ipni suggests that> > Tropaeolum tricolorum is not a validly published name and Tropaeolum> > tricolor is. I can't help but wonder if someone "corrected" tricolor to> > tricolorum to match the ending of the genus. Note that the word tricolor is> > an adjective whose nominative singular forms are the same for all three> > genders. (I think I might have described it as a noun in an earlier post on> > this topic – sorry if I did).> >> > Less skilled editors often "correct" certain names: Sedum cauticola (which> > is correct) to Sedum cauticolum (which is not), Platycodon grandiflorus> > (which is correct) to Platycodon grandiflorum (which is not).> >> > There are a lot of ways things can go wrong; I've tried most of them myself!> >> >> > I spent the day out in the garden planting bulbs – I've still got more to> > go. It was a perfect day for garden work – mild, temps in the 50s F,> > overcast and misty, a few rain drops. To those of you to whom I have> > promised bulbs and seeds, don't give up! Once I get my grubby, muddy garden> > clothes on, I don't leave the garden (indeed, I'm barely allowed into the> > house in that state). The big freeze up, which old time gardeners in this> > area placed at December 5, has not yet occurred this year. So I'm on> > borrowed time, and pushing hard to beat that deadline.> >> > For me, there are few pleasures in gardening as sublime as the sense of> > expectation which sets in and replaces the anxiety surrounding the annual> > autumnal planting. I'm almost there.> >> >> > Sorry to go on so much: it helps to unwind after a very busy, tiring day.> >> > Jim McKenney> > jimmckenney@jimmckenney.com> > Montgomery County, Maryland, USA, 39.03871º North, 77.09829º West, USDA zone> > 7, where Iris unguicularis is blooming freely now: what a treat!> > My Virtual Maryland Garden http://www.jimmckenney.com> > BLOG! http://mcwort.blogspot.com/> >> > Webmaster Potomac Valley Chapter, NARGS> > Editor PVC Bulletin http://www.pvcnargs.org> >> > Webmaster Potomac Lily Society http://www.potomaclilysociety.org> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > _______________________________________________> > pbs mailing list> > pbs@lists.ibiblio.org> > http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php> > http://pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki> >> _______________________________________________> pbs mailing list> pbs@lists.ibiblio.org> http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php> http://pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki > > _______________________________________________ > pbs mailing list > pbs@lists.ibiblio.org > http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php > http://pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki > From zigur@hotmail.com Thu Dec 11 00:45:14 2008 Message-Id: From: Tim Harvey Subject: Ferraria/Spelling rules Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2008 21:44:35 -0800 Dylan, It seems to me that Botanical latin is a subset of classical latin. Examples already given in this thread suggest that the priciples of classical latin rule. One of my personal favorites is how everyone alters specific epithets for the genus Cyphostemma to end -a, e.g. seitziana (should be seitzianum). Descoings made the same mistake when he created Cyphostemma, not realising that the generic name was neuter instead of feminine. Apologies for the non-bulb example. Language has nothing to do with rules concerning precedence of publication. T> Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2008 19:02:28 -0800> From: othonna@gmail.com> To: pbs@lists.ibiblio.org> Subject: Re: [pbs] Ferraria/Spelling rules> > Tim,> > My "Botanical Latin" (William T. Stearn), aka "the bible", is not here> with me but I will have a look at it later. My understanding has> always been that botanical Latin is specifically a servant of the> descriptive plant sciences. As such it has been adapted over the> centuries to accommodate a discrete set of needs such as a reliable> (if complex) method for creating names and, almost relictually today,> the precise, sometimes exhaustive, physical description of taxa. As> you know formerly whole floras or taxonomic treatments were written> entirely in Latin, and where the line between botanical and classical> is drawn in such cases I don't know.> > One bit of evidence for botanical Latin's "independence" is that it> has undergone its own history of changes and adjustments according to> its own history and principles.> > This is a minor example and may not be what you are after, but it is> an interesting one. Two names in the California that are often> misspelled are Solanum xanti and Agave deserti. If I recall correctly,> these honorific epithets follow a rule that when a person's surname is> Latin to begin with-- in this case Mssrs. Xantius and Desertius> (people's actual names) then the modifying "i" suffix is singular and> not doubled as we might otherwise expect.> > This would seem to be an example of a rule that one would not find in> classical Latin, along with many others whose aim is to fortify and> stabilize the naming of plants.> > Also, did not the binomial system itself derive from the need for a> more sensible naming system? That would be a unique departing> attribute then, really a major one for botanical Latin. Within this> scheme critical importance is assigned to authorship and the *valid> publication* of names, as well as chronologic priority in publishing.> Again, these features would seem to be alien to the classical stuff.> > Dylan> > > On 10/12/2008, Tim Harvey wrote:> >> > Dylan,> >> > Are you sure botanical latin is distinct from classical latin (pronunciation excepted)?> >> > Can you provide any examples?> >> > T> Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2008 18:01:02 -0800> From: othonna@gmail.com> To: pbs@lists.ibiblio.org> Subject: Re: [pbs] Ferraria/Spelling rules> > Jim,> > I think you mean "densepunctulata", not "densepunctatula".> > One important aspect that many people do not realize in these cases is> that botanical Latin is really a language unto itself and is distinct> from, though obviously derived from, classical Latin. Thus confusion> can arise even for those with a background in classical Latin. The> rules of botanical Latin conform to the specialized needs of botany.> This applies to the formation of names as well as Latin diagnoses or> formal descriptions in Latin.> > Dylan> > > On 10/12/2008, Jim McKenney wrote:> > Here is my take on the names Mary Sue mentioned.> >> > Densepunctatula is an example of the problem caused by old time botanists> > who did not always make careful distinctions between parts of speech. In the> > past authors of names often simply strung out two or more nouns (typically> > one of the genitive) or other parts of speech to make a compound word. In> > this particular case, the intention was probably to combine the Latin word> > (an adverb) "dense" with punctatula to indicate thickly speckled or> > something like that (assuming that a speckle is a little spot). Had the word> > been published as dense-punctatula, I think it would have met the> > requirements of the code. Some of you perhaps know or grow the fern> > Thelypteris decursive-pinnata. The name is sometimes incorrectly written> > decursivepinnata, without the hyphen. If you want to write it without the> > hyphen, it should be decursivipinnata.> >> > Modern attempts to standardize nomenclature have rejected most if not all of> > these compound words formed by the "string them together" method and> > converted them into compound words formed with the typical connective vowel> > i for compounds of Latin words (and if you follow the text-book Latin> > pronunciations as I do, keep in mind that this i is a short i). In Greek> > words the connective vowel is a short o. In both Latin and Greek these> > connective vowels are so-called weak vowels and thus frequently change into> > a different vowel if they end up next to a strong vowel. The practical> > consequence of this is that you will see words which are obviously compound> > words, and in which you can recognize the component parts, but nevertheless> > the connective vowel is not short i or short o.> >> > Another practice which began to be common about forty years ago is to base> > family names on the oblique stem of words and not the nominative stem. Thus> > the genus Melastoma in older works is placed in the family Melastomaceae,> > but in modern works the name of the family is built from the oblique stem> > and is spelled Melastomatacese. The iris family provides another example:> > the genitive of iris is iridis, and the family name is built on that as> > Iridaceae.> >> > Once you understand this, you might notice other seeming anomalies – and> > perhaps be able to figure them out for yourself. For instance, Aloe is> > properly a three syllable word and some of us still write it as Aloë. The> > letter combination oe in Latin is a diphthong, so without the dieresis you> > would expect the family name to be spelled Alaceae. But the stem is alo- and> > the family name is thus Aloaceae.> >> >> > The spelling variations in Dutch names reflect the surprising fact that> > Dutch, as I understand it, underwent a big spelling standardization as> > recently as the 1940s. This reform resulted in such old spellings as –ij> > being written in modern Dutch as y. In the case cited by Mary Sue, the> > author of the name in question used the old-time spelling and someone> > attempted to correct it to the modern Dutch spelling. I don't know what the> > code says about that, but it should be easy to find out.> >> > Similar problems arise when names are transliterated from the Cyrillic> > alphabet to the Roman alphabet. I suspect that is why generations of western> > gardeners wrote Allium christophii when they should have been writing A.> > cristophii.> >> > A related problem occurs with names from those languages which do not voice> > final consonants. For instance, many Russian names end in the patronymic –ov> > (as in, for instance, Corydalis popovii). When such names are spoken in> > Russian, the final v is pronounced as an f. For me, this poses a bit of a> > conundrum with respect to the pronunciation of these names as botanical> > names: in the botanical specific epithet popovii that v is not in word-final> > position. Should it be pronounced as a v or as an f? I can't wait to try> > this out on a native speaker of Russian.> >> > Hannon's comments on the way a final r is treated reflect the peculiar> > nature of the sounds represented in different languages by the symbol r.> > Some of those sounds are true consonantal sounds (and thus get the ii> > ending) and some are not (and thus get the i ending). It's been a while> > since I've seen the code (and I have yet to see the current one) and I don't> > know if this is spelled out in the code. When I have some free time I'll try> > to check it out.> >> > With respect to the Tropaeolum name, a quick look at ipni suggests that> > Tropaeolum tricolorum is not a validly published name and Tropaeolum> > tricolor is. I can't help but wonder if someone "corrected" tricolor to> > tricolorum to match the ending of the genus. Note that the word tricolor is> > an adjective whose nominative singular forms are the same for all three> > genders. (I think I might have described it as a noun in an earlier post on> > this topic – sorry if I did).> >> > Less skilled editors often "correct" certain names: Sedum cauticola (which> > is correct) to Sedum cauticolum (which is not), Platycodon grandiflorus> > (which is correct) to Platycodon grandiflorum (which is not).> >> > There are a lot of ways things can go wrong; I've tried most of them myself!> >> >> > I spent the day out in the garden planting bulbs – I've still got more to> > go. It was a perfect day for garden work – mild, temps in the 50s F,> > overcast and misty, a few rain drops. To those of you to whom I have> > promised bulbs and seeds, don't give up! Once I get my grubby, muddy garden> > clothes on, I don't leave the garden (indeed, I'm barely allowed into the> > house in that state). The big freeze up, which old time gardeners in this> > area placed at December 5, has not yet occurred this year. So I'm on> > borrowed time, and pushing hard to beat that deadline.> >> > For me, there are few pleasures in gardening as sublime as the sense of> > expectation which sets in and replaces the anxiety surrounding the annual> > autumnal planting. I'm almost there.> >> >> > Sorry to go on so much: it helps to unwind after a very busy, tiring day.> >> > Jim McKenney> > jimmckenney@jimmckenney.com> > Montgomery County, Maryland, USA, 39.03871º North, 77.09829º West, USDA zone> > 7, where Iris unguicularis is blooming freely now: what a treat!> > My Virtual Maryland Garden http://www.jimmckenney.com> > BLOG! http://mcwort.blogspot.com/> >> > Webmaster Potomac Valley Chapter, NARGS> > Editor PVC Bulletin http://www.pvcnargs.org> >> > Webmaster Potomac Lily Society http://www.potomaclilysociety.org> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > _______________________________________________> > pbs mailing list> > pbs@lists.ibiblio.org> > http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php> > http://pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki> >> _______________________________________________> pbs mailing list> pbs@lists.ibiblio.org> http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php> http://pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki> >> > _______________________________________________> > pbs mailing list> > pbs@lists.ibiblio.org> > http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php> > http://pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki> >> _______________________________________________> pbs mailing list> pbs@lists.ibiblio.org> http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php> http://pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki From jshields104@comcast.net Thu Dec 11 09:42:13 2008 Message-Id: <5.1.0.14.2.20081211092251.01cf6d70@mail.comcast.net> From: "J.E. Shields" Subject: Botanical Latin Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2008 09:42:55 -0500 I always enjoy these discussion of Botanical Latin. Has anyone noticed that some botanists transliterate the (English) "V" sound from Russian as "w" in names? Other times as "v" of course. Some examples: Corydalis turczaninowii Corydalis kusnetzovii Fritillaria walujewii (What nationality was Mr. Walujew? How is that pronounced in Anglophone countries? In Germany? In Slavic countries?) Iris winogradowii Arum korolkowii Galanthus krasnovii Does the code say anything about which spelling might be preferred? I assume that the pronunciation of the final botanical name would be the same, whether spelled with v or with w, but I also wonder along with Jim McK.: like "v" or like "f" ? Jim Shields in cold central Indiana (USA), where we have had plenty of sub-freezing weather already. ************************************************* Jim Shields USDA Zone 5 Shields Gardens, Ltd. P.O. Box 92 WWW: http://www.shieldsgardens.com/ Westfield, Indiana 46074, USA Tel. ++1-317-867-3344 or toll-free 1-866-449-3344 in USA From jimmckenney@jimmckenney.com Thu Dec 11 09:44:34 2008 Message-Id: <000301c95b9f$760904c0$2f01a8c0@Library> From: "Jim McKenney" Subject: Ferraria/Spelling rules Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2008 09:47:57 -0500 The nature of the relationship between classical Latin and botanical Latin has been raised. I’m not at all concerned about the answer to the question “are classical Latin and botanical Latin the same language?”. But I am intrigued by the way people justify the positions they take on this issue. I know that many members of this forum are not only interested in the horticultural aspect of things but also have backgrounds in the biological sciences. I wonder how many of you realize how similar in some ways are the ways linguists approach the problem of distinguishing languages and the ways biologists approach the question of distinguishing species. Paleontologists in particular find it useful to distinguish between what are sometimes called horizontal relationship and vertical relationship. Horizontal relationship refers to relationship at a given point in time. Vertical relationship refers to relationship over a time span. Thus, all living species have evolved from previously living species or concurrently living species. When we look at the fossil record and consider the relationship of living species to their extinct presumed precursors, the differences are so great that no one would consider the living and the extinct to be the same species. Yet logically we know that if a living species evolved from an extinct species, then there must have been an unbroken chain of intermediates between them. And furthermore, there would be no way to divide the continuum into good species: it’s all one species varying over time. Now apply that point of view to languages and ask this question: is Italian Latin? I’ve never heard a linguist argue that Italian is Latin (and I’m not suggesting that it is, either), but there is every reason to believe that there has been an unbroken continuum of speech between speakers of Latin and speakers of modern Italian in all its variety. If we somehow knew about all of these intermediate forms, then we would clearly see that Italian and Latin are the same language. But since we know only the extreme disparate ends of the rope, we focus on the differences and treat them as different languages. And now consider the relationship between classical Latin and botanical Latin in the same light. To me this makes the question which started all of this irrelevant. As far as I know, linguists have been no more successful at arriving at a clear solution to the issue of distinguishing “species” of languages than biologists have been in distinguishing natural species. There are splitters and lumpers among linguists: for instance, most linguists consider Flemish and Dutch to be the same language, others insist that such differences as exist between Dutch spoken in the Netherlands and Dutch spoken in “Flanders” are sufficient to justify recognition as separate languages. As with all such discussions, you can pick your doctor and get the diagnosis you want. Jim McKenney jimmckenney@jimmckenney.com Montgomery County, Maryland, USA, 39.03871º North, 77.09829º West, USDA zone 7 My Virtual Maryland Garden http://www.jimmckenney.com BLOG! http://mcwort.blogspot.com/ Webmaster Potomac Valley Chapter, NARGS Editor PVC Bulletin http://www.pvcnargs.org Webmaster Potomac Lily Society http://www.potomaclilysociety.org From jimmckenney@jimmckenney.com Thu Dec 11 10:09:02 2008 Message-Id: <000401c95ba2$e07da510$2f01a8c0@Library> From: "Jim McKenney" Subject: Botanical Latin; was Ferraria/Spelling rules Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2008 10:12:24 -0500 I’ll bet the answer to Jim Shields’ question about the use of W or V has to do with the author of the name in question. In particular, keep in mind that names from Russian had to be transliterated into Roman characters. Since Russian has sounds which do not occur in Latin, there is no way to simply re-spell the transliterated Russian name so that its Latin spelling reproduces the same sound. For instance, classical Latin did not have the V sound. So, if the intention is not to transliterate into Latin, into what language is the Russian being transliterated? In many cases, the alternative was to transliterate into whatever language the author of the name spoke. And in much of the older literature, that language was German. Historically there has been a significant ethnic German presence in the Baltic states, and for long they were the West’s door to Russia. The W Jim sees in those names is the German W (which of course has the V sound). To speakers of German that made perfectly good sense: it reproduced the sound of the Russian, it spelled the Russian in a way which allowed a speaker of German to accurately reproduce the sound of the Russian. Note also that German, too, de-voices final consonants, so the V/F issue is a non-issue for them. The question of how to best spell personal names in Latin has been a problem throughout the history of nomenclature. Because many modern languages re-spell words borrowed from other languages (so that their speakers will make an approximation of the source-language sound), some early taxonomists tried to re-spell personal names so that when “Latinized” the sound of the name was preserved. But this practice resulted in the re-spelling of the person’s name, and was not widely adopted. No doubt too many honorees objected to the fact that their buddies didn’t recognize their names. The modern practice is overwhelmingly to use the spelling of the source language if it is a language which uses the Roman alphabet. That leaves most of us clueless about the pronunciation – but since we are reading letters we think we understand, we try anyway (and make a mess of it). It’s always a hoot to hear a newbie tackle Ligularia przewalskii. Jim McKenney jimmckenney@jimmckenney.com Montgomery County, Maryland, USA, 39.03871º North, 77.09829º West, USDA zone 7 hey, isn’t there a horse with the same name? That guy got around, didn’t he! My Virtual Maryland Garden http://www.jimmckenney.com BLOG! http://mcwort.blogspot.com/ Webmaster Potomac Valley Chapter, NARGS Editor PVC Bulletin http://www.pvcnargs.org Webmaster Potomac Lily Society http://www.potomaclilysociety.org From msittner@mcn.org Thu Dec 11 10:38:27 2008 Message-Id: <5.2.0.9.2.20081211073316.035a4e88@mail.mcn.org> From: Mary Sue Ittner Subject: Ferraria/Spelling rules Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2008 07:33:58 -0800 Thanks for the interesting comments about the naming of plants and thanks Dylan for alerting me to the crispa subspecies that I need to change on the wiki. The Manning and Goldblatt books rarely include much data about subspecies and they don't recognize a lot of them so I was using the spelling in the monograph, but will change it. IPNI lists it this way: Iridaceae Ferraria crispa Burm. subsp. nortieri M.P.de Vos -- J. S. African Bot. 45(3): 343 (1979), as 'nortierii'. (IK) From a practical standpoint it would be nice if someone checked the rules before accepting the way someone names a plant so it would not have to be changed down the road. The question I have is at what point does the plant community decide to change all their labels if someone named a plant and did not follow the naming rules and countless books have been written in the meantime using that spelling and everyone knows it by that spelling. In the case of the species in question as I originally wrote, except for the Kew checklist, almost all of the other references use the other spelling. IPNI: Iridaceae Ferraria densepunctulata M.P.de Vos -- J. S. African Bot. 45(3): 346 (1979). (IK) And Christiaan van Schalkwyk has alerted me to another super reference that I'm going to find very helpful, an African plants database, and I found this reference there. http://www.ville-ge.ch/musinfo/bd/cjb/africa/details.php?langue=an&id=22502 Mary Sue From jimmckenney@jimmckenney.com Thu Dec 11 14:34:37 2008 Message-Id: <000801c95bc7$f8380450$2f01a8c0@Library> From: "Jim McKenney" Subject: Ferraria/Spelling rules Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2008 14:37:56 -0500 Mary Sue wrote: “IPNI lists it this way: Iridaceae Ferraria crispa Burm. subsp. nortieri M.P.de Vos -- J. S. African Bot. 45(3): 343 (1979), as 'nortierii'. (IK) From a practical standpoint it would be nice if someone checked the rules before accepting the way someone names a plant so it would not have to be changed down the road.” Mary Sue has provided a good example of the r which is not an r. Or at least I think she has. If the eponym for the name nortieri pronounced his name as a French name, then the name does not end in a consonant. Say the name French-style: what is the nature of the final sound? It’s a vowel sound. Yes, it’s spelled with what we speakers of English see as a consonant at the end of the word; but the word itself, the word as spoken, ends in a vowel sound. This overweening focus on the written word and simultaneous ignoring of the spoken word gets us into trouble. This question of the usage of a single i or a double ii has its roots in the phonetics of Latin and the languages derived from it. Those of us who speak non-Romance languages are apt to be clueless about this: it’s not something to which we attach any importance; our sense of euphony doesn’t speak to this. Here’s the deal in its most basic form: it’s difficult to enunciate multiple vowels sounds without intervening consonant sounds. Thus, the orthography of many languages puts a limit on the size of vowel clusters. And where there are not formal prohibitions and two or more vowels occur together, prevailing patterns of speech typically insert unwritten glides (in effect, consonants) between such vowels. Words which end in silent consonants (consonants preceded by a vowel) thus already end in one vowel. To add two more (the ii of nomenclature) would make the pronunciation awkward. That’s why Buddleja is spelled with a j: the j is a semi-vowel form of i (in other words a glide) inserted to separate the surrounding vowel sounds. This disjunction between the written form of words and their spoken form is largely ignored by many people. It isn’t enough to focus solely on the written form of the word. And it certainly doesn’t make sense to focus solely on the written form of the word and then attempt to justify orthographic decisions on the basis of what are actually rules of phonetics. The sound should come first, and the orthographic decisions should follow. I have a hunch only native speakers of English will be asking “Why?” An earlier phase of this thread touched on transliteration. But the term transliteration is a bit of a misnomer because it is not the letters themselves which determine the final outcome, but rather the sound which a letter represents in the source language. That’s why a German speaker will transliterate the Russian в as w and the English-speaking person will transliterate it as a v - and neither transliterates it as English B. In the old days of botanical nomenclature there was no recognized international standard for this; our legacy is thus varied. I wouldn’t want to predict what way botanical nomenclature will go in the future with these issues, but of this I am certain: those who attempt to separate current nomenclatural practice from that of the past, who want a botanical Latin independent of text-book Latin for instance, are shortchanging themselves. Yes, botanical Latin should be free to grow in its own direction. But if we are to retain an understanding of what our predecessors did and why they did it, we have to retain an understanding of their practices. While I think most of us would agree at least in spirit with Mary Sue’s suggestion that someone “check the rules”, I wonder who that someone might be. Most taxonomists are not linguists; the language used for nomenclature is an international language - it’s not enough that it agree only with the sensibilities of those of us in the English-speaking world; in so far as possible it should serve everyone. When I was a kid, I learned many Californian place names incorrectly because I had no experience with Spanish. Names such as La Jolla, Baja California and the like I pronounced as if they were English. When I got older and realized what was what - and pointed this out to others - many responded with chauvinistic huffiness: “You won’t catch me talking like some foreigner…” Except for the chauvinistic huffiness part, elements of this thread remind me of this. The words don’t always mean what you think they mean. Jim McKenney jimmckenney@jimmckenney.com Montgomery County, Maryland, USA, 39.03871º North, 77.09829º West, USDA zone 7 My Virtual Maryland Garden http://www.jimmckenney.com BLOG! http://mcwort.blogspot.com/ Webmaster Potomac Valley Chapter, NARGS Editor PVC Bulletin http://www.pvcnargs.org Webmaster Potomac Lily Society http://www.potomaclilysociety.org From info@auchgourishbotanicgarden.org Thu Dec 11 16:11:51 2008 Message-Id: From: Subject: Latin nomenclature Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2008 21:11:58 -0000 I have been following this discourse with considerable interest as I have recently [hopefully] completed the Index of Lily synonyms for my book with the result that there are currently in excess of 650 synonyms for some 120 + taxa at species and subspecies level, a small number of taxa may change in due course. However, in looking out for a specific reference for a particular lily, picking through an number of different books and journals I landed up on NALS's Index for 1992-1997 in their volume for 1998 and nearly fell of my perch on accessing page 124, second line down on the right for those with a copy, where I read the following :- Lilium auratum, spelt correctly and in italics, followed by >> McCranthun << [sic]. Now as a Scot I am fairly familiar with our nation's surnames, many of which are now found in North America and elsewhere all around the world following emigration from the old country but there isn't any such name as >> Mc or Mac Cranthun << either with italic or non italic letters, the patronymic element has no close, or even distant, orthographic equivalent in the Gaelic or Latin languages. After a short flicker of paniced intake of breath I double checked both the new Synonym Index and the new Lilium Botanical Species Index, however verily low and behold there in the Botanical Species Index was the name, ah but I see you're ahead of me ! >> Lilium auratum var.macranthum <<. Verily are we introduced unto interesting works of botanical interest, even the poor unsuspecting "m" found itself transliterated to a blameless "n" . The case for detailed Indexes in Lilium had been made. Brightened me up no end on a grey mid winter's day at - 8 C. Iain -- I am using the free version of SPAMfighter. We are a community of 5.7 million users fighting spam. SPAMfighter has removed 37647 of my spam emails to date. Get the free SPAMfighter here: http://www.spamfighter.com/len The Professional version does not have this message From farmerguys08@gmail.com Thu Dec 11 17:25:54 2008 Message-Id: From: Paul Machado Subject: New email address Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2008 14:25:17 -0800 To all PBS user: My new email address is now Farmerguys08@gmail.com , please update your address book. Thank you, All the best, Paul Machado PBS Vice President From janemcgary@earthlink.net Thu Dec 11 19:16:39 2008 Message-Id: From: Jane McGary Subject: Botanical Latin Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2008 16:03:20 -0800 Jim SHields noted, At 06:42 AM 12/11/2008, you wrote: >I always enjoy these discussion of Botanical Latin. Has anyone noticed >that some botanists transliterate the (English) "V" sound from Russian as >"w" in names? Other times as "v" of course. The spelling of botanical names derived from Russian depends on whether the names were transmitted via German speakers. Some of the most active botanists attached to early Russian exploration were in fact German in origin, and applied their own often unwieldy phonemic spelling to Russian names. Jane McGary (B.A., Classics; M.A. Comparative Lit.) From eagle85@flash.net Thu Dec 11 19:24:28 2008 Message-Id: From: Douglas Westfall Subject: New email address Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2008 16:24:22 -0800 Paul, Do you know that you are not listed in the "membership list"? Doug From idavide@sbcglobal.net Thu Dec 11 19:32:37 2008 Message-Id: <992963.97550.qm@web81001.mail.mud.yahoo.com> From: David Ehrlich Subject: Botanical Latin Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2008 16:32:33 -0800 (PST) From: Jane McGary "... German ... their own often unwieldy phonemic spelling ..." German -- unwieldy spelling -- and you are writing this in English! From HHeaven77@aol.com Thu Dec 11 19:50:08 2008 Message-Id: <8CB2A0AACD9FE43-155C-1683@Webmail-mg03.sim.aol.com> From: hheaven77@aol.com Subject: New email address Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2008 19:49:51 -0500 It seems that more than one person was missed... Celeste -----Original Message----- From: Douglas Westfall To: Pacific Bulb Society Sent: Thu, 11 Dec 2008 5:24 pm Subject: Re: [pbs] New email address Paul, Do you know that you are not listed in the "membership list"? Doug _______________________________________________ pbs mailing list pbs@lists.ibiblio.org http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php http://pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki From honeybunny442@yahoo.com Thu Dec 11 20:38:44 2008 Message-Id: <761607.94269.qm@web56101.mail.re3.yahoo.com> From: Susan B Subject: Scadoxus winter storage Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2008 17:38:44 -0800 (PST) I have some potted Scadoxus multiflorus and puniceus that are starting to die back- last year I kept them dry in their pots over the winter.  This year I'm very short on room in the greenhouse, does anyone store their bulbs dry? Thank you Susan From drpaulbear@xtra.co.nz Thu Dec 11 20:39:32 2008 Message-Id: <80EECFAFB4084CCE9C59A735A419C64E@Pauls> From: Subject: New email address Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2008 14:39:22 +1300 if this message is addressed to me .No I don't know being partially sighted I do have a problem using the UP.CO. From clayton3120@cablespeed.com Thu Dec 11 21:18:40 2008 Message-Id: <2C.21.26773.BF9C1494@mxo4.broadbandsupport.net> From: Subject: New email address Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2008 21:18:35 -0500 From clayton3120@cablespeed.com Thu Dec 11 21:18:47 2008 Message-Id: <7D.21.26773.00AC1494@mxo4.broadbandsupport.net> From: Subject: New email address Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2008 21:18:39 -0500 From othonna@gmail.com Thu Dec 11 21:48:54 2008 Message-Id: <8e8da5260812111848o4aa95b2bgf66e48205c7d0e75@mail.gmail.com> From: Hannon Subject: Ferraria/Spelling rules Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2008 18:48:53 -0800 Tim, I think you are right that botanical Latin is logically considered a subset of classical Latin. I was not really arguing against this idea, just pointing out that botanical Latin is a distinct branch, if you will, of Latin and is recognizable as such. You say "Language has nothing to do with rules concerning precedence of publication." Quite right. I got stuck between latinization and nomenclature. ____________________________________________________ In thinking about how scientific plant names are created it is well to remember that the names are *always latinized*, in other words they are modified, according to a well-ordered set of rules. This accounts for things like surnames beginning in "Mc" being converted to "mac" for a specific epipthet, or a Mr. Sellow being honored with Sinningia sellovii. Some languages are not "latinizable" and a scientific epithet based on a local name in such a language may appear in its original form as a specific or generic epipthet, e.g. Dypsis bejofo, Caryota no, Kaempferia galanga or Alpinia zerumbet. It should surprise no one that in light of this complexity, low demand for proficiency in botanical Latin and even lower priority in academia for teaching these skills, the number of qualified persons on a global scale can be counted on one or two hands. Dylan From jonathanhutchinson@rhs.org.uk Fri Dec 12 04:53:07 2008 Message-Id: <67FCC990C7597E46BEB7E9818709230247A6BC@wismail.rhs.net> From: Subject: [BULK] Scadoxus winter storage Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2008 09:53:16 -0000 I would have thought that storage could be done into boxes but I would certainly keep the plants totally covered to prevent desiccation , whether this would affect flowering for the following year I know not Jonathan -----Original Message----- From: pbs-bounces@lists.ibiblio.org [mailto:pbs-bounces@lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf Of Susan B Sent: 12 December 2008 01:39 To: pbs@lists.ibiblio.org Subject: [BULK] [pbs] Scadoxus winter storage Importance: Low I have some potted Scadoxus multiflorus and puniceus that are starting to die back- last year I kept them dry in their pots over the winter.  This year I'm very short on room in the greenhouse, does anyone store their bulbs dry? Thank you Susan _______________________________________________ pbs mailing list pbs@lists.ibiblio.org http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php http://pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki From j.grimshaw@virgin.net Fri Dec 12 05:34:43 2008 Message-Id: <034e01c95c45$3f5abda0$0401a8c0@MAINPC> From: "John Grimshaw" Subject: [BULK] Scadoxus winter storage Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2008 10:34:43 -0000 I would be worried that the perennial roots would dry out if stored out of their pots, setting the plants back quite a bit. John Grimshaw Dr. John M. Grimshaw Sycamore Cottage Colesbourne Cheltenham Gloucestershire GL53 9NP Tel. 01242 870567 From Neil.Crawford@volvo.com Fri Dec 12 06:31:49 2008 Message-Id: <9C5495AFDF325A449075BFC4A1C6D3A73ED3DA4A@SEGOTC5130-CCR.vcn.ds.volvo.net> From: Crawford Neil Subject: Latin pronounciation Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2008 12:31:47 +0100 Something we've noticed during trips abroad, is that Swedish-latin is completely different to English-latin. For instance we pronounce Kniphofia as "k-nip-hofe-ia", and it took a while before we understood that the "knife-oaf-ia" our South african friends were talking about, was the same plant! Just an observation, I have no idea which is correct. /Neil From studio.pozzitaubert@tiscali.it Fri Dec 12 07:21:01 2008 Message-Id: From: studio pozzi taubert Subject: Latin pronounciation Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2008 13:20:57 +0100 here in Italy we pronounce KNE-PHO'-PH-E-A hoping it helps Il giorno 12/dic/08, alle ore 12:31, Crawford Neil ha scritto: > > Something we've noticed during trips abroad, is that Swedish-latin is > completely different to English-latin. For instance we pronounce > Kniphofia as "k-nip-hofe-ia", > and it took a while before we understood that the "knife-oaf-ia" > our South african > friends were talking about, was the same plant! > Just an observation, I have no idea which is correct. > /Neil > _______________________________________________ > pbs mailing list > pbs@lists.ibiblio.org > http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php > http://pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki Giorgio Pozzi Travedona (Varese) Italy zone 7/8 studio.pozzitaubert@tiscali.it From jshields@indy.net Fri Dec 12 08:24:54 2008 Message-Id: <5.1.0.14.2.20081212082106.01b92498@pop.indy.net> From: "J.E. Shields" Subject: Scadoxus winter storage Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2008 08:25:16 -0500 Susan and all, I agree with John. I store my Scadoxus in their pots, but relatively dry. They are in the greenhouse, under a bench in winter. Unpotting would definitely set them back seriously. It gets down almost to freezing on some cold nights in winter (with the heaters running), and this does not seem to hurt the puniceus. My other species don't flower well, and I think I will need to find a warm place for them in winter. Note that S. puniceus will start to flower in January and most of mine flower, in the greenhouse, in February. Regards, Jim Shields in cold central Indina (USA) At 10:34 AM 12/12/2008 +0000, you wrote: >I would be worried that the perennial roots would dry out if stored out of >their pots, setting the plants back quite a bit. > >John Grimshaw > >Dr. John M. Grimshaw >Sycamore Cottage ************************************************* Jim Shields USDA Zone 5 Shields Gardens, Ltd. P.O. Box 92 WWW: http://www.shieldsgardens.com/ Westfield, Indiana 46074, USA Tel. ++1-317-867-3344 or toll-free 1-866-449-3344 in USA From jimmckenney@jimmckenney.com Fri Dec 12 09:03:06 2008 Message-Id: <000601c95c62$d4d77450$2f01a8c0@Library> From: "Jim McKenney" Subject: Latin pronounciation Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2008 09:06:28 -0500 When trying to figure out the sensible way to pronounce a botanical word, it helps a lot to know the etymology of the word. The name Kniphofia is based on a German name, Kniphof. The ph in this word is not the Greek letter phi; it simply results from having combined knip + hof. If you want to honor the eponym, pronounce both the k and the n and pronounce the p and the h separately - as Neil suggested in his "Swedish" pronunciation. I put "Swedish" in quotes because there are some of us who are not Swedish who pronounce it this way, too. In the English speaking world, or at any rate the ethnocentric, averse-to-other-languages ugly American world, it's generally pronounced ny-FOF-ee-a. Knife-oaf-ia is new to me - I think the second syllable says it all. Jim McKenney jimmckenney@jimmckenney.com Montgomery County, Maryland, USA, 39.03871º North, 77.09829º West, USDA zone 7, where in an old book I have the author, who was answering questions received from the gardening public, relates the story of the woman who complained that her ox Alice was not thriving. My Virtual Maryland Garden http://www.jimmckenney.com BLOG! http://mcwort.blogspot.com/ Webmaster Potomac Valley Chapter, NARGS Editor PVC Bulletin http://www.pvcnargs.org Webmaster Potomac Lily Society http://www.potomaclilysociety.org From farmerguys08@gmail.com Fri Dec 12 09:14:40 2008 Message-Id: <7E5B9E0CD37D418C830D361AC6BD5BEA@your4105e587b6> From: Paul Machado Subject: New email address Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2008 06:14:08 -0800 I am on the list, just under my partner, Michael Homick's name. Thanks though for the concern. All the best, Paul ----- Original Message ----- From: "Douglas Westfall" To: "Pacific Bulb Society" Sent: Thursday, December 11, 2008 4:24 PM Subject: Re: [pbs] New email address > Paul, > > Do you know that you are not listed in the "membership list"? > > Doug > _______________________________________________ > pbs mailing list > pbs@lists.ibiblio.org > http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php > http://pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki > From janemcgary@earthlink.net Fri Dec 12 11:39:26 2008 Message-Id: From: Jane McGary Subject: Ferraria/Spelling rules Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2008 08:39:01 -0800 Dylan wrote, >Some languages are not "latinizable" and a scientific epithet based on >a local name in such a language may appear in its original form as a >specific or generic epipthet, e.g. Dypsis bejofo, Caryota no, >Kaempferia galanga or Alpinia zerumbet. Epithets such as this are considered (and often are in fact, being the native-language names of the plants) nouns rather than adjectives. We also see Latin and Greek nouns occasionally used as epithets, and this is usually why a species name does not exhibit gender agreement with the genus name. And yes, I know English spelling is not phonemic (though it once was), but unlike Germans, we do not usually produce consonant clusters such as "schtsch" when transliterating a single alphabetic character from Russian. English-speaking linguists are, however, capable of even worse deeds when devising practical orthographies, as anyone who has ever read Siberian Yupik (Eskimo) can attest. Jane McGary From alessandro.marinohob@alice.it Fri Dec 12 11:46:03 2008 Message-Id: <1F734BB36EA84565BA2637F5AA9A6E74@microsof9092fb> From: "alessandro.marinello" Subject: Narcissus Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2008 17:45:59 +0100 Dear friens I try Narcissus viridiflorus who has news please to contact me privately Alessandro Marinello Padova Italy From alessandro.marinohob@alice.it Fri Dec 12 11:49:49 2008 Message-Id: From: "alessandro.marinello" Subject: Fw: Narcissus Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2008 17:49:45 +0100 ----- Original Message ----- From: alessandro.marinello To: Pacific Bulb Society Sent: Friday, December 12, 2008 5:45 PM Subject: Narcissus Dear friens I try Narcissus viridiflorus who has news please to contact me privately Alessandro Marinello Padova Italy From jimmckenney@jimmckenney.com Fri Dec 12 11:49:16 2008 Message-Id: <000a01c95c7a$0af7fe80$2f01a8c0@Library> From: "Jim McKenney" Subject: Ferraria/Spelling rules Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2008 11:52:37 -0500 Jane McGary wrote: “Epithets such as this are considered (and often are in fact, being the native-language names of the plants) nouns rather than adjectives." Thanks for mentioning this, Jane. It is the basis for my objection to changing the name of Zephyranthes atamasco to Z. atamasca. Jim McKenney jimmckenney@jimmckenney.com Montgomery County, Maryland, USA, 39.03871º North, 77.09829º West, USDA zone 7 My Virtual Maryland Garden http://www.jimmckenney.com BLOG! http://mcwort.blogspot.com/ Webmaster Potomac Valley Chapter, NARGS Editor PVC Bulletin http://www.pvcnargs.org Webmaster Potomac Lily Society http://www.potomaclilysociety.org From janemcgary@earthlink.net Fri Dec 12 11:53:53 2008 Message-Id: From: Jane McGary Subject: Latin pronounciation Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2008 08:53:37 -0800 Out here in the West, "Kniphofia" is often pronounced "nip-hoff-i-a," though we do throw in the "k" (if we can) when talking to a German speaker. The British pronunciation of Latin has been mocked by Europeans for centuries, but the European pronunciation is long evolved from what might have been heard in Rome of the Empire period. (Yes, we can hypothesize what that was like. Don't get me started, it is not a productive line for us.) Plant names are loan words, and the treatment of loan words tends to be different in American and British English; Americans tend to preserve the pronunciation from the source language more than British (and British postcolonial) speakers do (e.g., "garage"). American speakers also tend to use more "Continental" vowels than British speakers do, especially in regard to the vowel "a" (Spanish "casa," for instance). European Latin pronunciation is heavily influenced by that employed historically in the Roman Catholic Church, which in turn is influenced by Italian (and yes, I know that historically "Italian" is not one language). It's helpful to know these differences if you have occasion (such as guiding a field trip) to relay plant names to a group from various countries. Another complication that arises, which hasn't been mentioned, is that writers from Russia and the former Soviet countries often come up with variant spellings of plant names when they're transliterating them from Russian floras without looking at roman-alphabet floras for comparison. Japanese botanical works usually include roman-alphabet versions of the plant names, but an editor working with English prose from a Japanese author (or a seed exchange processor dealing with Japanese donors) has to be alert to the frequent switches between "r" and "l". Jane McGary From carlobal@netzero.net Fri Dec 12 11:59:12 2008 Message-Id: <20081212.115716.17497.0@webmail13.vgs.untd.com> From: "carlobal@netzero.net" Subject: Latin pronounciation Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2008 16:57:16 GMT You guys are going to start convincing people that common names ARE a better way to go.... While this is intellectually fascinating, the end result is that, no matter how you pronounce/spell it (within reason, of course), we all understand what's being spoken about. Carlo A. Balistrieri The Gardens at Turtle Point Tuxedo Park, NY 10987 Zone 6 (845.351.2849) Visit: www.botanicalgardening.com and its BGBlog From totototo@telus.net Fri Dec 12 12:06:34 2008 Message-Id: <49422996.32024.A60AE@localhost> From: totototo@telus.net Subject: Botanical Latin Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2008 09:06:30 -0800 On 11 Dec 2008, at 9:42, J.E. Shields wrote: > Corydalis turczaninowii Corydalis turchaninovii > Corydalis kusnetzovi Corydalis kusnetsovi > Fritillaria walujewii Fritillari valuyevii > Iris winogradowii Iris vinogradovii > Arum korolkowii Arum korolkovii > Galanthus krasnovii Galanthus krasnovii (krasnoffii, perhaps) > Does the code say anything about which spelling might be preferred? I > assume that the pronunciation of the final botanical name would be the > same, whether spelled with v or with w, but I also wonder along with Jim McK.: > like "v" or like "f" ? There is no fixed pronunciation of Latin, classical, medieval, or botanical. Those of us who had good Latin teachers in high school know that one school of thought is veenee, veedee, veechee, another is weenee, weedee, weetchee. Most of the names you offer are Latinisations of German transliterations of Russian names. I've given approximate pronunciations, mainly affecting the w- v names, if you accept that the purpose is to memorialize the Russian name and hence the pronunciation should refer back to that, through the lens of German spelling. It's precisely the same issue as in Tchaikovsky and Chaikovskii in the world of music. Whether a termination -wii is best pronounced -vii or -ffii is probably merely a matter of taste. On the whole, it's probably easier to just use the rules for pronouncing classical Latin and don't worry about offending anyone's linguistic sensibilities. And you are allowed to stumble around anyway, there's no law against having private rules for pronouncing the stuff. PS: botanical Latin is a descendant of medieval scholars' Latin; it's a grand- daughter (or further removed) of classical Latin. It has a vastly simplified grammar; in fact most isn't even written in sentences as the custom has grown up of writing plant descriptions in (iirc) the ablative case. It's a very specialized language used only for a single, very narrow purpose. You couldn't write your memoirs in botanical Latin. -- Rodger Whitlock Victoria, British Columbia, Canada Maritime Zone 8, a cool Mediterranean climate on beautiful Vancouver Island http://maps.google.ca/maps?q=48.4676,-123.3262&ll=48.4676,-123.3262&z=14 From jimmckenney@jimmckenney.com Fri Dec 12 12:13:52 2008 Message-Id: <000f01c95c7d$7b4d2310$2f01a8c0@Library> From: "Jim McKenney" Subject: Latin pronounciation Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2008 12:17:14 -0500 Jane McGary wrote “Another complication that arises, which hasn't been mentioned, is that writers from Russia and the former Soviet countries often come up with variant spellings of plant names when they're transliterating them from Russian floras without looking at roman-alphabet floras for comparison.” A while back I hit on this great idea: I wanted to brush up on my Russian spelling, so I though I would practice by transliterating the botanical names of plants into Cyrillic and then check them against Russian language web sites. When I did this I had just the surprise Jane mentioned: even the Russians sometimes get it wrong. Here’s something interesting I noticed recently. On the Scottish Rock Garden Club’s bulb forums there is an Armenian forum member who has posted pictures of tulips from a Russian source. What caught my eye is that the images have the Russian names of the tulips embedded in the image. But here’s what’s so interesting: the Russian names are phonetic transcriptions of English names as a rule. It would have been simple to actually translate the English into Russian, but instead the phonetic transcription is given. I fell asleep that night having fantasies of visiting Russian gardens and hearing the gardeners call their tulips by the names familiar to me but in a heavy Russian accent. Not many of the tulips we grow have Russian names: off hand, only Perestroika comes to mind. I also decided to learn the Japanese alphabet they use to write foreign words so I would be able to read Japanese botanical names on Japanese web sites: I downloaded the Japanese fonts and somehow that caused all of my YouTube hits to appear in Japanese. To be continued,,, Jim McKenney jimmckenney@jimmckenney.com Montgomery County, Maryland, USA, 39.03871º North, 77.09829º West, USDA zone 7 My Virtual Maryland Garden http://www.jimmckenney.com BLOG! http://mcwort.blogspot.com/ Webmaster Potomac Valley Chapter, NARGS Editor PVC Bulletin http://www.pvcnargs.org Webmaster Potomac Lily Society http://www.potomaclilysociety.org From theotherjen8@yahoo.com Fri Dec 12 12:57:23 2008 Message-Id: <679994.76842.qm@web51701.mail.re2.yahoo.com> From: Jennifer Hildebrand Subject: Officer Elections Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2008 09:56:53 -0800 (PST) Hi all, Sorry to be a little later than promised, but here is the slate of officers for PBS.  As you will see, each individual is running unopposed, but just for the purpose of making the election official, it would be great if a few MEMBERS (only) would hit "forward" and then send a note to Jennifer Hildebrand at theotherjen8@yahoo.com saying something along the lines of "I vote for the proposed slate."    PRESIDENT: Jane McGary VICE PRESIDENT: Paul Machado TREASURER: Arnold Trachtenberg SECRETARY: Pam Slate   The other positions on the board are "director" positions; the holders of those positions are appointed by the board as a whole, so they do not appear on the ballot. Thanks! Jennifer Membership Director From jshields@indy.net Fri Dec 12 14:07:22 2008 Message-Id: <5.1.0.14.2.20081212140237.03634ac0@pop.indy.net> From: "J.E. Shields" Subject: Smither's Rule. Was: Latin pronounciation Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2008 14:07:28 -0500 Hi all, At some point in the fun discussions, I like to remind everyone of the charming way the late Sir Peter Smithers dealt with these issue: "Botanical Latin is a written language, not a spoken language. So any pronunciation that lets you make yourself understood to your listener is alright," or words to that effect. I think of this as "Smither's Rule." I try for the Classical Latin pronunciation that I learned 60 years ago in high school. I don't always succeed! Best regards, Jim Shields ************************************************* Jim Shields USDA Zone 5 Shields Gardens, Ltd. P.O. Box 92 WWW: http://www.shieldsgardens.com/ Westfield, Indiana 46074, USA Tel. ++1-317-867-3344 or toll-free 1-866-449-3344 in USA From idavide@sbcglobal.net Fri Dec 12 14:29:23 2008 Message-Id: <575438.58756.qm@web81006.mail.mud.yahoo.com> From: David Ehrlich Subject: Smither's Rule. Was: Latin pronounciation Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2008 11:29:21 -0800 (PST) From: J.E. Shields jshields@indy.net   "Botanical Latin is a written language, not a spoken language.  So any pronunciation that lets you make yourself understood to your listener is alright, ..." Thank you Jim.  I wanted to write the same thing, but the discussion has been so erudite, informative and entertaining; who would want it to end? David Ehrlich From tom@evolution-plants.com Fri Dec 12 14:36:24 2008 Message-Id: From: Tom Mitchell Subject: Latin pronounciation Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2008 19:34:33 +0000 As someone who scored 17% in his final high school Latin exam, I'm not really qualified to have an opinion. However, I have two problem names, on which I'd be interested to hear opinions, to throw into the mix. My Dutch wife pronounces the 'foe' in Helleborus foetidus to rhyme with 'so', whereas I pronounce it the British way to rhyme with 'see'. What's the consensus? My other question relates to Fuchsia. Should one say 'Fook-sia' or 'Phew-sha'? International misunderstandings as a result of Latin pronunciation are common. A Danish botanist friend of mine says that his greatest difficulty at international conferences comes when he has to talk about the genus Pinus, which in Denmark is said 'pee-noose'... I can't resist repeating my favourite Latin story, completely off- topic, which was told to me by a friend who cycled the pilgrimage route to Santiago de Compostela. On arrival, pilgrims are apparently granted a dispensation from the Pope, written in Latin of course, absolving them of their sins. My friend's husband therefore became 'Darrylibus' and she became 'Rachelus'. What a versatile language! From leonard.shires@ntlworld.com Fri Dec 12 14:42:30 2008 Message-Id: <5C385AAA5E544C9EBBCBA2E4961E7B84@pcusercf7f1c93> From: "mr chris shires" Subject: nestor Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2008 19:42:24 -0000 hi all, I hope someone can help, does anyone have an e-mail address for Nestor White of Palm Beech, Florida. I am wanting to purchase some bulbs from him. Thank you! Chris Shires (uk member) leonard.shires@ntlworld.com E-mail message checked by Spyware Doctor (6.0.0.386) Database version: 5.11331 http://www.pctools.com/uk/spyware-doctor-antivirus/ From crinum@libero.it Fri Dec 12 14:48:27 2008 Message-Id: From: "Alberto Grossi" Subject: nestor Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2008 20:48:25 +0100 nestorebay69@gmail.com --------- Initial Header ----------- From : pbs-bounces@lists.ibiblio.org To : "Pacific Bulb Society" pbs@lists.ibiblio.org Cc : Date : Fri, 12 Dec 2008 19:42:24 -0000 Subject : [pbs] nestor > hi all, > I hope someone can help, does anyone have an e-mail address for Nestor White of Palm Beech, Florida. I am wanting to purchase some bulbs from him. > Thank you! > Chris Shires (uk member) > leonard.shires@ntlworld.com > > > > E-mail message checked by Spyware Doctor (6.0.0.386) > Database version: 5.11331 > http://www.pctools.com/uk/spyware-doctor-antivirus/ > _______________________________________________ > pbs mailing list > pbs@lists.ibiblio.org > http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php > http://pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki > Alberto Grossi Italy From othonna@gmail.com Fri Dec 12 15:14:43 2008 Message-Id: <8e8da5260812121214u424e1d64va39dc83cc5fe6014@mail.gmail.com> From: Hannon Subject: Latin pronounciation Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2008 12:14:43 -0800 The general sentiment here seems to be that pronunciation is a bit like arguing about color: not much point in it for a variety of good reasons. I agree with this and when someone asks about pronunciation I usually say "It is best to go by the same rules one uses in a Latin-based language such as Spanish, where vowel pronunciation is consistent". This leaves off accents and more but it is a start. This still leaves many problem areas that are more amusing than serious, such as honorific latinized names. For example, the orchid genus Rodriguezia, usually pronounced in the anglosphere as "RodriguEzia" whereas the original name is "RodrEEguez". Thus if one follows the "rule" commonly cited for Clivia of retaining the pronunciation of the person's name we have "RodrEEguezia" which is not euphonic to say the least. It's fun to implement this idea for honorific names but once they have been latinized they have really been formed into a different language and the original pronunciation of a person's name becomes irrelevant. Genuinely following pronunciation rules would mean following rules for Latin pronunciation. The latter has its own sensibilities that growers and even botanists are reticent to learn. Anglicized pronunciation, even considering regional variation (such as American vs. former Commonwealth states) is reasonably uniform and stands in contrast to those who speak the romance languages and other languages. These latter tend for the most part to follow the Latin vowel rule (ah, eh, ih, oh, oo as in food) and I think this trips up listeners and speakers more than strange-sounding accent placement. Awareness of different pronunciations is far more useful than searching for, or hoping for, a universal pronunciation. Dylan Hannon From jimmckenney@jimmckenney.com Fri Dec 12 15:30:33 2008 Message-Id: <001001c95c98$f14009a0$2f01a8c0@Library> From: "Jim McKenney" Subject: Latin pronounciation Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2008 15:33:49 -0500 Tim, to the classicist the oe in foetidus is pronounced oi. Classicists themselves don't always agree about these things, and in particular there is debate about this very word foetidus. Perhaps you are wondering how anyone would think they know how it was pronounced two thousand years ago? There are several sorts of evidence, but the easiest for most of us to understand is the evidence from the way the Romans wrote Greek words. When Romans took Greek words which had the oi sound, they wrote them with the letter combination oe. Greek evidently had the oi sound and wrote it as oi (omicron-iota). So see what happened: the educated Romans could read Greek, they could see the oi (omicron-iota) which looked a lot like the their letters o and i, but they did not use their letters o and i to spell the Greek words because in Latin the letter combination oi represents the o sound followed by the i sound; it does not represent the oi sound of oink in Latin. In Latin, oi is not a diphthong (which is why purists do not use the oink sound but instead separate the o and i sounds in botanical words ending in, for instance, -oides. Incidentally, note that I have not answered your question, I've simply used it as an excuse to give my version of things. You asked what the consensus is. I have no idea. Someone else will have to answer that one. But I don't follow the consensus. The word Fuchsia as a botanical name honors Leonhard Fuchs, a sixteenth century German botanist. If you want to commemorate him, pronounce the word fooks-ee-a. Your Danish friend's problem is not the result of his pronunciation; it's the result of the nearly universal mispronunciation in the English-speaking world of the word to which you allude. In Latin the e is a long e and the first syllable is thus pronounced pay-, not pee-. Joe Six Pack pronounces it pee because that's all he probably does with it. (Am I in trouble?) Are you sure about Rachelus? Jim McKenney jimmckenney@jimmckenney.com Montgomery County, Maryland, USA, 39.03871º North, 77.09829º West, USDA zone 7 My Virtual Maryland Garden http://www.jimmckenney.com BLOG! http://mcwort.blogspot.com/ Webmaster Potomac Valley Chapter, NARGS Editor PVC Bulletin http://www.pvcnargs.org Webmaster Potomac Lily Society http://www.potomaclilysociety.org From j.grimshaw@virgin.net Fri Dec 12 16:37:16 2008 Message-Id: <004801c95ca1$d0515150$0401a8c0@MAINPC> From: "John Grimshaw" Subject: Latin pronounciation Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2008 21:37:19 -0000 I think it's quite funny that nobody has changed the subject line's spelling to pronunciation... John Grimshaw Dr. John M. Grimshaw Sycamore Cottage Colesbourne Cheltenham Gloucestershire GL53 9NP From jimmckenney@jimmckenney.com Fri Dec 12 16:44:12 2008 Message-Id: <001801c95ca3$436e5a60$2f01a8c0@Library> From: "Jim McKenney" Subject: Latin pronounciation Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2008 16:47:42 -0500 John Grimshaw wrote: "I think it's quite funny that nobody has changed the subject line's spelling to pronunciation..." I hesitate to do that because I'm never sure if doing so will cause the changed subject line to be treated as a different thread for search purposes. Will it? We'll take up orthography next week! Jim McKenney From info@auchgourishbotanicgarden.org Fri Dec 12 17:29:00 2008 Message-Id: From: Subject: latin versus common names Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2008 22:29:07 -0000 In response to Carlo Balistrieri's urging that so called "common names" be advanced instead of Latin is I assume just being provocative to stir things up a bit for a bit of festive season amusement. Anyone who cares to stop and think for a mille-second as to how hopelessly unrealistic = daft such a suggestion is might like to first ask the questions; [a] whose common name should be used? [b] in which common language should these be preferred? and [c] if in English should this be standard English used in the British Isles, Australia, New Zealand, Swedish --- remember that famous man Linnaeus whose bi-nomal system in Latin is the world wide standard for every plant on the planet [including New York and Italy] as well as South Africa, French, Spanish, and by many in Canada and amongst most users of Standard English elsewhere in the world where it is not their first language, e.g. the European Union; or should it be in the still evolving American English where in some regions either Spanish or French influences abound, or how about Caribbean English? Carlo I think your proposal is a duck which can't and never will fly just like all domestic ducks, dialects and languages. Consider....... the Russians, Chinese, Japanese and Arabic as well as Hebrew, Persian, Turkic, Hindi, Pashtu and all the other minor [relatively] speakers all use and accept the dead language of Latin. Why, because it carries no political or colonial hangover baggage and it is used universally by everyone with even the remotest interest in plants, as in this sites case, birds amongst ornithologists, etc, etc, etc. Within the mainland USA there are numerous so called common names for the same species, don't even ask how many exist in the old world. Which one would you insist is the preferred option and do imagine that everyone will agree with you? The legion of common name synonyms would be a nightmare and only the gods alone know how much trouble Latin synonyms can be for just one genus such as Lilium. I think you are on your own on this one Carlo but the best of luck however as someone from Italy originally take pleasure in knowing your ancestral country's language is the universal one for and in science, all science. Quite how your website www.botanicalgardening.com would survive in the absence of Botanical Latin is I would suggest something of an oxymoron. Iain -- I am using the free version of SPAMfighter. We are a community of 5.7 million users fighting spam. SPAMfighter has removed 37825 of my spam emails to date. Get the free SPAMfighter here: http://www.spamfighter.com/len The Professional version does not have this message From carlobal@netzero.net Fri Dec 12 17:41:54 2008 Message-Id: <20081212.173907.2317.1@webmail13.vgs.untd.com> From: "carlobal@netzero.net" Subject: latin versus common names Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2008 22:39:07 GMT Iain, You are perhaps the only person who didn't capture what I hoped would be an obvious tongue-in-cheek rejoinder to the shower of messages in this thread. You are quite correct about how difficult (daft) it would be for us to be communicating with common names--which I never use, despite their sometimes equally colorful origins.... Carlo A. Balistrieri The Gardens at Turtle Point Tuxedo Park, NY 10987 Zone 6 (845.351.2849) Visit: www.botanicalgardening.com and its BGBlog From carlobal@netzero.net Fri Dec 12 17:42:20 2008 Message-Id: <20081212.173954.2317.2@webmail13.vgs.untd.com> From: "carlobal@netzero.net" Subject: latin versus common names Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2008 22:39:54 GMT Iain, You are perhaps the only person who didn't capture what I hoped would be an obvious tongue-in-cheek rejoinder to the shower of messages in this thread. You are quite correct about how difficult (daft) it would be for us to be communicating with common names--which I never use, despite their sometimes equally colorful origins.... Carlo A. Balistrieri The Gardens at Turtle Point Tuxedo Park, NY 10987 Zone 6 (845.351.2849) Visit: www.botanicalgardening.com and its BGBlog From leo@possi.org Fri Dec 12 20:10:50 2008 Message-Id: <170c1712c697ff24d0ad64b5136abc5c.squirrel@www.possi.org> From: "Leo A. Martin" Subject: Kniphofia in South Africa Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2008 17:10:49 -0800 (PST) Just to stir the pot, I heard a lecture on Aloe by Gideon Smith of the NBI in Pretoria in which he mentioned in passing that DNA work is showing Kniphofia should probably be included in Aloe. Leo Martin Phoenix Arizona USA From jimmckenney@jimmckenney.com Fri Dec 12 20:15:21 2008 Message-Id: <001901c95cc0$c25c87d0$2f01a8c0@Library> From: "Jim McKenney" Subject: Kniphofia in South Africa Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2008 20:18:50 -0500 Leo wrote:" Kniphofia should probably be included in Aloe" I love it, Leo! I've always thought of Kniphofia as non-succulent aloes. Consider my pot stirred. Jim McKenney From totototo@telus.net Fri Dec 12 21:25:45 2008 Message-Id: <4942ACA6.10542.2F8F5@localhost> From: totototo@telus.net Subject: Ferraria/Spelling rules Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2008 18:25:42 -0800 On 12 Dec 2008, at 8:39, Jane McGary wrote: > Dylan wrote, > > >Some languages are not "latinizable" and a scientific epithet based on > >a local name in such a language may appear in its original form as a > >specific or generic epipthet, e.g. Dypsis bejofo, Caryota no, > >Kaempferia galanga or Alpinia zerumbet. > > Epithets such as this are considered (and often are in fact, being > the native-language names of the plants) nouns rather than > adjectives. We also see Latin and Greek nouns occasionally used as > epithets, and this is usually why a species name does not exhibit > gender agreement with the genus name. "A substantive in apposition" is, if my failing memory hasn't failed too much, the technical term. I'm sure this grammatical gambit is also used in English as in "the country France is highly civilized" but I'm somewhat skeptical that that example is on all fours with the botanical Latin example Zephyranthes atamasco. Perhaps "the perfume Eternity is a real stinker" is closer. -- Rodger Whitlock Victoria, British Columbia, Canada Maritime Zone 8, a cool Mediterranean climate on beautiful Vancouver Island http://maps.google.ca/maps?q=48.4676,-123.3262&ll=48.4676,-123.3262&z=14 From tom@evolution-plants.com Sat Dec 13 01:43:58 2008 Message-Id: <34ABB6C1-3025-4F1F-A925-C13B439691AD@evolution-plants.com> From: Tom Mitchell Subject: Kniphofia in South Africa Date: Sat, 13 Dec 2008 06:42:03 +0000 Leo wrote:" Kniphofia should probably be included in Aloe" Which I'm assuming should be pronounded 'Al-OI', Jim? I will check with Rachelus on the status of her name. Given that she is now without sin, I assume she wouldn't have lied to me... From jimmckenney@jimmckenney.com Sat Dec 13 07:39:36 2008 Message-Id: <000601c95d20$55314a00$2f01a8c0@Library> From: "Jim McKenney" Subject: Kniphofia in South Africa Date: Sat, 13 Dec 2008 07:42:58 -0500 Tim wrote: “Leo wrote:" Kniphofia should probably be included in Aloe" Which I'm assuming should be pronounced 'Al-OI', Jim?” No. You’ve picked up on part of what I was explaining, but not all of it. If one wants to represent the sound al-oi in Latin, one writes aloe. However, the name of the plant is not Aloe, it’s Aloë. Those two little dots over the e indicate that the o and the e are to be pronounced separately; they indicate that there are three syllables and not two. They indicate that the oe is not the diphthong oe but rather the o sound followed by the e sound. By the way, those two little dots are not an umlaut, they are what is known as a dieresis. The code of nomenclature accepts the word printed with or without the dieresis. In the old days, there were probably not many printers in the English-speaking world who had type fonts for the dieresis, and it’s rare to find one. In the modern world there is no practical reason not to use it. Aloë is pronounced a-lo-e (remember, it’s Latin, not English, so it’s something like AH-lo-ay). This three syllable pronunciation is at least two millennia old, older in fact than classical Latin (it was a three syllable word in classical Greek) and is still observed by many (mostly outside the English-speaking world). . Jim McKenney jimmckenney@jimmckenney.com Montgomery County, Maryland, USA, 39.03871º North, 77.09829º West, USDA zone 7 My Virtual Maryland Garden http://www.jimmckenney.com BLOG! http://mcwort.blogspot.com/ Webmaster Potomac Valley Chapter, NARGS Editor PVC Bulletin http://www.pvcnargs.org Webmaster Potomac Lily Society http://www.potomaclilysociety.org From m.ashley.cooper@comcast.net Sat Dec 13 09:02:41 2008 Message-Id: From: "M Ashley-Cooper" Subject: Kniphofia in South Africa Date: Sat, 13 Dec 2008 09:02:21 -0500 As a South African, we pronounce the name "Al- oh" as in Al Capone and Oh wow, is he dead? ----- Original Message ----- From: Jim McKenney To: 'Pacific Bulb Society' Sent: 13 12, 2008 7:42 AM Subject: Re: [pbs] Kniphofia in South Africa Tim wrote: "Leo wrote:" Kniphofia should probably be included in Aloe" Which I'm assuming should be pronounced 'Al-OI', Jim?" No. You've picked up on part of what I was explaining, but not all of it. If one wants to represent the sound al-oi in Latin, one writes aloe. However, the name of the plant is not Aloe, it's Aloë. Those two little dots over the e indicate that the o and the e are to be pronounced separately; they indicate that there are three syllables and not two. They indicate that the oe is not the diphthong oe but rather the o sound followed by the e sound. By the way, those two little dots are not an umlaut, they are what is known as a dieresis. The code of nomenclature accepts the word printed with or without the dieresis. In the old days, there were probably not many printers in the English-speaking world who had type fonts for the dieresis, and it's rare to find one. In the modern world there is no practical reason not to use it. Aloë is pronounced a-lo-e (remember, it's Latin, not English, so it's something like AH-lo-ay). This three syllable pronunciation is at least two millennia old, older in fact than classical Latin (it was a three syllable word in classical Greek) and is still observed by many (mostly outside the English-speaking world). . Jim McKenney jimmckenney@jimmckenney.com Montgomery County, Maryland, USA, 39.03871º North, 77.09829º West, USDA zone 7 My Virtual Maryland Garden http://www.jimmckenney.com BLOG! http://mcwort.blogspot.com/ Webmaster Potomac Valley Chapter, NARGS Editor PVC Bulletin http://www.pvcnargs.org Webmaster Potomac Lily Society http://www.potomaclilysociety.org _______________________________________________ pbs mailing list pbs@lists.ibiblio.org http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php http://pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki From email@ruthbierhoff.com Sat Dec 13 10:07:29 2008 Message-Id: <287960A4639640328EA71E8F93A004D4@bierhoffcjj14d> From: "Ruth Bierhoff" Subject: new member Date: Sat, 13 Dec 2008 10:06:52 -0500 Just wanted to introduce myself as a new member and bulb lover, but not expert. At present, I'm growing bulbs and other perennials in North Carolina in the Piedmont area. Have mostly shade garden, so drool longingly over full sun bulbs, and even try growing some in sheer defiance. Allium, Arisaema, Amorphophallus, Anemone, Arum, Fritillaria, Hymenocallis, Iris, Lilium, and Zephyranthus among others, so far. Will probably spend most of my time lurking, since I'm not a bulb expert, but the site seems very interesting. Ruth Bierhoff, Zone 7-8 (who knows, at this point) From info@auchgourishbotanicgarden.org Sat Dec 13 15:03:49 2008 Message-Id: <980BDF14A3364C15A83DCC3FA347BE65@homepc> From: Subject: latin v common Date: Sat, 13 Dec 2008 20:03:36 -0000 Bon journo and well said Carlo, when it comes to being common I am as common as the rest and even more than most, so my English wide assures me, they are an uppity race all said and done, indeed England remains as one of Scotland's few remaining colonies, can we get rid of them, dear me no but we are working on it if for no other reason than England is plagued with Lily Beetle and we dread its arrival here in Scotland, its only a matter of time with two records so far, one in Edinburgh the other in Glasgow. That I should have missed the tongue in cheek of yours I must submit a fulsome apology, therein the irony however I am constantly advised that Americans "don't do irony" Obviously at least one does, it doesn't do to generalise. Thank you, I feel suitably chastised, as the Bishop said the Actress. Best wishes et Ciao, Iain -- I am using the free version of SPAMfighter. We are a community of 5.7 million users fighting spam. SPAMfighter has removed 37974 of my spam emails to date. Get the free SPAMfighter here: http://www.spamfighter.com/len The Professional version does not have this message From info@auchgourishbotanicgarden.org Sat Dec 13 15:33:53 2008 Message-Id: From: Subject: Lily Beetle - Change of topic Date: Sat, 13 Dec 2008 20:33:54 -0000 Ref: Lily Beetle --- Lilioceris lilii [Scopoli] syn. Crioceris lilii Those visitors to and members of this forum might be interested to read recent information accessible on the following site following a PhD project by an Entomologist Andrew Salisbury working at RHS Garden Wisley in England. The distribution map lacks much in the way of accuracy however there is some very interesting information for those in North America already afflicted by Lily Beetle on either or both Lilium and Fritillaria, or those who might become if gardeners fail to take care during exchanges of plant material or taking infected material to shows for transfer there. The URL which seems to be case sensitive when I accessed it, this is : www.rhs.org.uk/Learning/Research/Projects/lily_beetle.htm I would be very grateful and appreciative for information from anyone with knowledge on the distribution of Lily Beetle in North America. It seems extant records show occurrences along the Maritime seaboard of Canada and the USA south as far as the northern edge of the Carolinas but seemingly not in either state?; as well as some of those areas in both countries bordering the Great Lakes. The scale of the map published in Plantsman December 2008 makes accuracy difficult and I can't work out therefore from it whether this serious pest occurs along the Pacific Seaboard yet but I am confident distribution does NOT include the Sea of Okhotsk between Russia Ussuri and Russia Sakhalin!!!!!. Anyone contributing information will be appropriately gratefully acknowledged for their effort in the new book, Lilies & Their Allies. A brief summary of pertinent aspects of the work by Salisbury as well as others makes it clear that although Lily beetle has been reported on 23 plant genera, recent research indicates that it can only develop on Cardiocrinum, Fritillaria and Lilium. Incidentally this volume of Plantsman has an interesting article on Crinum in cultivation by Alberto Grossi, p.222-229 I hope the above is of interest and also hope to learn what is known, if anything, about occurrence along the Pacific coastal Provinces and States. Iain -- I am using the free version of SPAMfighter. We are a community of 5.7 million users fighting spam. SPAMfighter has removed 37974 of my spam emails to date. Get the free SPAMfighter here: http://www.spamfighter.com/len The Professional version does not have this message From brian.whyer@btinternet.com Sun Dec 14 05:48:14 2008 Message-Id: <35F9A39507904810AD63A2D40163A8BC@2CVEVE1> From: "Brian Whyer" Subject: Lily Beetle Date: Sun, 14 Dec 2008 10:48:15 -0000 I was quite surprised to find an adult, only 2-3 weeks back, on a green seed pod of a late flowering aconitum. It was amongst a few now brown stemmed lilies so that was probably all that was left for it to try and get a feed. I was still finding some on Cardiocrinum until those leaves succumbed to winter, just a few weeks before. Hopefully this cold wet start to winter will kill off some of those I missed this year; the worst I can remember for this pest. It seemed I was squashing the eggs on the underside of the Cardiocrinum leaves this summer every few days, and had almost a whole green seed pod of one fritillary eaten away, large green/white seed and all, although some lilies were more or less untouched. E.g. Lilium canadense. Brian Whyer, Buckinghamshire, England, zone ~8 From kellso@irvincentral.com Sun Dec 14 21:40:29 2008 Message-Id: <4945C382.7040005@irvincentral.com> From: Kelly Irvin Subject: new member Date: Sun, 14 Dec 2008 20:40:02 -0600 Dear Ruth: Everyone is very glad to have you join the group, and we would all hope one would not feel like they cannot contribute to the list based on level of expertise. We hope you enjoy the list whether lurking or discussing, and thank you for sharing your greetings with us. Mr. Kelly M. Irvin 10850 Hodge Ln Gravette, AR 72736 USA 479-787-9958 USDA Cold Hardiness Zone 6a/b http://www.irvincentral.com/ Ruth Bierhoff wrote: > Just wanted to introduce myself as a new member and bulb lover, but not expert. At present, I'm growing bulbs and other perennials in North Carolina in the Piedmont area. Have mostly shade garden, so drool longingly over full sun bulbs, and even try growing some in sheer defiance. Allium, Arisaema, Amorphophallus, Anemone, Arum, Fritillaria, Hymenocallis, Iris, Lilium, and Zephyranthus among others, so far. > > Will probably spend most of my time lurking, since I'm not a bulb expert, but the site seems very interesting. > > Ruth Bierhoff, Zone 7-8 (who knows, at this point) > _______________________________________________ > pbs mailing list > pbs@lists.ibiblio.org > http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php > http://pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki > > From maxwithers@gmail.com Sun Dec 14 23:23:35 2008 Message-Id: <51e9bfed0812142023h42a2f020qbc1e9c9f7364e8f0@mail.gmail.com> From: "Max Withers" Subject: Kniphofia in South Africa Date: Sun, 14 Dec 2008 20:23:32 -0800 I somehow managed to stay out of the the Latin pronunciation discussion, but I was just looking at my (rapidly dwindling) Kniphofia 'Christmas cheer' and thinking how much it looked like an Aloe. But what about the other Asphodelaceae? I'd put Bulbinella about halfway between Aloe and Asphodel. Max Withers almost freezing but finally raining Oakland CA I cannot resist adding, pace everyone's spam filters, that a Fuschia truly memorial of Leonhard Fuchs would have to be pronounced FUCK-sia. I've just discovered that his De historia stirpium commentarii insignes is available on google books: http://books.google.com/books?id=3fWFctV3hWIC&dq=leonhard+fuchs&printsec=frontcover&source=bl&ots=0xQebiURAO&sig=LQGpDeGqwCyAs0qkH6c6M9MBjS0#PPR1,M1 Message: 13 Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2008 17:10:49 -0800 (PST) From: "Leo A. Martin" Subject: Re: [pbs] Kniphofia in South Africa To: pbs@lists.ibiblio.org Message-ID: <170c1712c697ff24d0ad64b5136abc5c.squirrel@www.possi.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Just to stir the pot, I heard a lecture on Aloe by Gideon Smith of the NBI in Pretoria in which he mentioned in passing that DNA work is showing Kniphofia should probably be included in Aloe. Leo Martin Phoenix Arizona USA From maxwithers@gmail.com Sun Dec 14 23:27:34 2008 Message-Id: <51e9bfed0812142026p302be262u5cefce162be80916@mail.gmail.com> From: "Max Withers" Subject: Lily Beetle - Change of topic Date: Sun, 14 Dec 2008 20:26:46 -0800 I know that my mother has them every year in coastal Massachusetts. I haven't seen them in California, but I don't grow many lilies. Max Withers Oakland CA Message: 2 Date: Sat, 13 Dec 2008 20:33:54 -0000 From: Subject: [pbs] Lily Beetle - Change of topic To: Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Ref: Lily Beetle --- Lilioceris lilii [Scopoli] syn. Crioceris lilii Those visitors to and members of this forum might be interested to read recent information accessible on the following site following a PhD project by an Entomologist Andrew Salisbury working at RHS Garden Wisley in England. The distribution map lacks much in the way of accuracy however there is some very interesting information for those in North America already afflicted by Lily Beetle on either or both Lilium and Fritillaria, or those who might become if gardeners fail to take care during exchanges of plant material or taking infected material to shows for transfer there. The URL which seems to be case sensitive when I accessed it, this is : www.rhs.org.uk/Learning/Research/Projects/lily_beetle.htm I would be very grateful and appreciative for information from anyone with knowledge on the distribution of Lily Beetle in North America. It seems extant records show occurrences along the Maritime seaboard of Canada and the USA south as far as the northern edge of the Carolinas but seemingly not in either state?; as well as some of those areas in both countries bordering the Great Lakes. The scale of the map published in Plantsman December 2008 makes accuracy difficult and I can't work out therefore from it whether this serious pest occurs along the Pacific Seaboard yet but I am confident distribution does NOT include the Sea of Okhotsk between Russia Ussuri and Russia Sakhalin!!!!!. Anyone contributing information will be appropriately gratefully acknowledged for their effort in the new book, Lilies & Their Allies. A brief summary of pertinent aspects of the work by Salisbury as well as others makes it clear that although Lily beetle has been reported on 23 plant genera, recent research indicates that it can only develop on Cardiocrinum, Fritillaria and Lilium. Incidentally this volume of Plantsman has an interesting article on Crinum in cultivation by Alberto Grossi, p.222-229 I hope the above is of interest and also hope to learn what is known, if anything, about occurrence along the Pacific coastal Provinces and States. Iain -- I am using the free version of SPAMfighter. We are a community of 5.7 million users fighting spam. SPAMfighter has removed 37974 of my spam emails to date. Get the free SPAMfighter here: http://www.spamfighter.com/len The Professional version does not have this message From email@ruthbierhoff.com Mon Dec 15 07:15:28 2008 Message-Id: From: "Ruth Bierhoff" Subject: new member Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2008 07:15:24 -0500 Thanks, Kelly, for the warm welcome. Ruth ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kelly Irvin" To: "Pacific Bulb Society" Sent: Sunday, December 14, 2008 9:40 PM Subject: Re: [pbs] new member > Dear Ruth: > > Everyone is very glad to have you join the group, and we would all hope > one would not feel like they cannot contribute to the list based on > level of expertise. We hope you enjoy the list whether lurking or > discussing, and thank you for sharing your greetings with us. > > Mr. Kelly M. Irvin > 10850 Hodge Ln > Gravette, AR 72736 > USA > 479-787-9958 > USDA Cold Hardiness Zone 6a/b > > http://www.irvincentral.com/ > > > > Ruth Bierhoff wrote: >> Just wanted to introduce myself as a new member and bulb lover, but not >> expert. At present, I'm growing bulbs and other perennials in North >> Carolina in the Piedmont area. Have mostly shade garden, so drool >> longingly over full sun bulbs, and even try growing some in sheer >> defiance. Allium, Arisaema, Amorphophallus, Anemone, Arum, Fritillaria, >> Hymenocallis, Iris, Lilium, and Zephyranthus among others, so far. >> >> Will probably spend most of my time lurking, since I'm not a bulb expert, >> but the site seems very interesting. >> >> Ruth Bierhoff, Zone 7-8 (who knows, at this point) >> _______________________________________________ >> pbs mailing list >> pbs@lists.ibiblio.org >> http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php >> http://pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki >> >> > _______________________________________________ > pbs mailing list > pbs@lists.ibiblio.org > http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php > http://pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki > > From pasogal@ameritech.net Mon Dec 15 14:03:39 2008 Message-Id: <002201c95ee7$b90aaa30$2b1ffe90$@net> From: "Annalee" Subject: Lily Leaf Beetle Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2008 13:02:47 -0600 This seems to be a fair summary of the lily leaf beetle-- scope of the problem with solutions. http://www.uri.edu/ce/factsheets/sheets/lilyleafbeetle.html From pasogal@ameritech.net Mon Dec 15 14:05:53 2008 Message-Id: <002301c95ee7$ee8268b0$cb873a10$@net> From: "Annalee" Subject: Lily Leaf Beetle - Landscape Nursery and Urban Forestry - UMass Extension Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2008 13:04:17 -0600 Also this article. Picture at each one. http://www.umassgreeninfo.org/fact_sheets/defoliators/lily_leaf_beetle.html From bonaventure@optonline.net Mon Dec 15 14:07:53 2008 Message-Id: From: bonaventure@optonline.net Subject: Botanical Latin Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2008 19:07:38 +0000 (GMT) Jim, In Poland, Walujew would be pronounced "va LOO yevf", and his Frittilaria there, if spelled phonetically and with the correct grammatical case endings if Polish were the scientific language, would be Frytylaria walujwyi (the y is a short i). Similarly for Turczaninow (TOOR chan NEEN ovf). Bonawentura Magrys (and the s has a dot over it and is pronounced like sh) ------------------------------ Message: 2 Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2008 09:42:55 -0500 From: "J.E. Shields" Subject: [pbs] Botanical Latin To: Pacific Bulb Society Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20081211092251.01cf6d70@mail.comcast.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed I always enjoy these discussion of Botanical Latin. Has anyone noticed that some botanists transliterate the (English) "V" sound from Russian as "w" in names? Other times as "v" of course. Some examples: Corydalis turczaninowii Corydalis kusnetzovii Fritillaria walujewii (What nationality was Mr. Walujew? How is that pronounced in Anglophone countries? In Germany? In Slavic countries?) From bonaventure@optonline.net Mon Dec 15 14:12:16 2008 Message-Id: From: bonaventure@optonline.net Subject: Botanical Polish Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2008 19:12:04 +0000 (GMT) BTW with przewalskii, with the rz being pronounced like the final g in garage, its "prze VAL skee-ee". Bonaventure From idavide@sbcglobal.net Mon Dec 15 15:27:55 2008 Message-Id: <987639.44482.qm@web81002.mail.mud.yahoo.com> From: David Ehrlich Subject: Kniphofia in South Africa Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2008 12:27:48 -0800 (PST) Max --   I think your problem is with spelling.  If you spell it correctly, you will pronounce it correctly.  But if you think it is a color rather than a genus, you will spell it as well as pronounce it incorrectly.  Unless you are a biologist: then you will pronounce it fyooksia, being used to that pronunciation for the stain fuchsin. From: Max Withers I cannot resist adding, pace everyone's spam filters, that a Fuschia truly memorial of Leonhard Fuchs would have to be pronounced FUCK-sia. From plicht@berkeley.edu Mon Dec 15 17:34:30 2008 Message-Id: <4946DB6F.3080000@berkeley.edu> From: Paul Licht Subject: New Member with plant availability Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2008 14:34:23 -0800 By way of introduction as a new member, after using and enjoying the PBS wiki for quite some time, I decided that I should 'pay my dues'. As Director of the Univ. California Botanical Garden at Berkeley, I enjoy an incredible array of geophytes from around the word (e.g., about 250 Amaryllidaceae and 300 Iridaceae species) and most notably, a large South African collection. Our collection is data-driven and the vast majority is wild collected of known provenance. I am also personally passionate about these plants and have my own collection, with an emphasis on the S. African bulbs and aroids. While it may sound like I should be an expert, I can only wish I were: I've already learned a great deal from the PBS listserve. Incidentally, I am not a botanist by background but perhaps it is relevant that much of my research was on the endocrinology of African hyenas. I have started adding images to the wiki from our collection and may be able to provide information on cultivation of some lesser known species. The Garden propagates a large number of geophytes (among other plants) for sale to the public; I would love to give them away or trade but cannot do this routinely because the funds are essential to help maintain the Garden. If you are interested, you can view a partial availability list on our website (http://botanicalgarden.berkeley.edu/shop/theplantdeck_bulblist.html). You can email me if you have questions. The Garden continues to seek new material (legally collected) with data and would greatly appreciate if you can help in this way. Paul From rvanderhoff@sbcglobal.net Tue Dec 16 00:33:10 2008 Message-Id: <879255.7891.qm@web81008.mail.mud.yahoo.com> From: Ron Vanderhoff Subject: New Member with plant availability Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2008 21:32:57 -0800 (PST) Welcome Paul, For those of you not familiar with the UC Berkeley Botanical Garden you have missed a true botanical treasure. In my opinion this is one of the great botanical garrdens in the western U.S. Over the long term the challenges of running a university botanical garden, with their irregular funding streams, make this an even more impressive facility. The plant collections are among the most diverse in the country with a special emphasis on the five Mediterranean climates of the world. My favorite is the South African garden, which is chock full of surprises. The collection of California geophytes is especially impressive as well, with nearly 100 taxa. Additionally, the collections are very well documented with complete accession data and are comprised of mostly wild collected material - legally and thoughtfully. In sum, this garden is quite impressive garden in both its collections and its operations. We should be glad to have Paul and the UC Berkeley garden on board. Ron Vanderhoff Southern California Zone 9b to 10a ________________________________ From: Paul Licht To: Pacific Bulb Society Sent: Monday, December 15, 2008 2:34:23 PM Subject: [pbs] New Member with plant availability By way of introduction as a new member, after using and enjoying the PBS wiki for quite some time, I decided that I should 'pay my dues'. As Director of the Univ. California Botanical Garden at Berkeley, I enjoy an incredible array of geophytes from around the word (e.g., about 250 Amaryllidaceae and 300 Iridaceae species) and most notably, a large South African collection. Our collection is data-driven and the vast majority  is wild collected of known provenance.  I am also personally passionate about these plants and have my own collection, with an emphasis on the S. African bulbs and aroids. While it may sound like I should be an expert, I can only wish I were: I've already learned a great deal from the PBS listserve. Incidentally, I am not a botanist by background but perhaps it is relevant that much of my research was on the endocrinology of African hyenas. I have started adding images to the wiki from our collection and may be able to provide information on cultivation of some lesser known species.  The Garden propagates a large number of  geophytes (among other plants) for sale to the public; I would love to give them away or trade but cannot do this routinely because the funds are essential to help maintain the Garden. If you are interested, you can view a partial availability list on our website (http://botanicalgarden.berkeley.edu/shop/theplantdeck_bulblist.html). You can email me if you have questions.  The Garden continues to seek new material (legally collected) with data and would greatly appreciate if you can help in this way. Paul _______________________________________________ pbs mailing list pbs@lists.ibiblio.org http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php http://pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki From m.ashley.cooper@comcast.net Tue Dec 16 01:49:39 2008 Message-Id: <870E785D8B484E6D9EF6CC33F40F382F@mykenew> From: "M Ashley-Cooper" Subject: Kniphofia in South Africa Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2008 01:49:20 -0500 As someone used to also speaking some Afrikaans which has a Dutch/Germanic type of ancestry, I suspect that the pronunciation of fuchsia would more likely be "Fooghsia" with the "gh" pronounced the same way as the "ch" in the Scottish loch (a sound as in clearing ones throat)! ----- Original Message ----- From: David Ehrlich To: Pacific Bulb Society Sent: 15 12, 2008 3:27 PM Subject: Re: [pbs] Kniphofia in South Africa Max -- I think your problem is with spelling. If you spell it correctly, you will pronounce it correctly. But if you think it is a color rather than a genus, you will spell it as well as pronounce it incorrectly. Unless you are a biologist: then you will pronounce it fyooksia, being used to that pronunciation for the stain fuchsin. From: Max Withers I cannot resist adding, pace everyone's spam filters, that a Fuschia truly memorial of Leonhard Fuchs would have to be pronounced FUCK-sia. _______________________________________________ pbs mailing list pbs@lists.ibiblio.org http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php http://pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki From piabinha@yahoo.com Tue Dec 16 13:27:06 2008 Message-Id: <46116.53189.qm@web51904.mail.re2.yahoo.com> From: piaba Subject: berkeley BG Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2008 10:27:05 -0800 (PST) the berkeley gardens were beautiful.  if i recall correctly, they are atop a hill, and you take a free bus to get there, but it's a nice walk downhill.  i recall enormous african Dioscoreas and perhaps Cyphostemmas.  also, the first time i saw Brunsvigia josephinae in bloom.  ========= tsuh yang From adam14113@ameritech.net Tue Dec 16 14:34:57 2008 Message-Id: <2F229C36D6D244A2AC624B2F9D498FB9@FAMILY> From: "Adam Fikso" Subject: pbs Digest, Vol 71, Issue 22 Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2008 13:33:33 -0600 My Golly!. Thanks for coming aboard, Paul. On a personal note-- I spent many hours roaming the grounds there in Strawberry Canyon at U of C when I was a kid ~1933-34. I especially remember collecting some discarded cacti from the garbage pile mostly from the Opuntia group next to my bare skin, and spending the better part of the next 2-3 days in misery picking nearly invisible spines out of my swollen belly skin. My mother helped some with a magnifying glass. (They looked so soft--how could they be spines?.) . I became skilled with a tweezers and improved my fine motor skills substantially. . ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Tuesday, December 16, 2008 12:21 PM Subject: pbs Digest, Vol 71, Issue 22 From to.sa@comhem.se Wed Dec 17 12:37:35 2008 Message-Id: <5F19AA3F-A0F1-4D10-924E-F67ABCB00E07@comhem.se> From: Tomas Sandberg Subject: Introduction Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2008 18:37:33 +0100 Hi all, My name is Tomas Sandberg from Sweden and I have collect bulbous species (amaryllidaceae) for more tha 20 years in our apartment. I have different species of Hymenocallis, Crinums, Scadoxus, Haemanthus, Cryptostephanus, Ammocharis, Cyrtanthus, Hippeastrums plus many more. Regards Tomas S From plicht@berkeley.edu Thu Dec 18 17:24:12 2008 Message-Id: <494ACD88.9070204@berkeley.edu> From: Paul Licht Subject: Plant availability and the value of PBS Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2008 14:24:08 -0800 First, I'd like to thank those who wrote such nice things about our collection here at the UC Botanical Garden. I also want to use this experience to point out the value of this PBS forum. After posting a list of the many geophytes we are offering on our website, one of my PBS heroines, Mary Sue Ittner, very promptly and graciously sent me a list of spelling corrections for the errors made in my haste. I told you I wasn't an expert. We just had two nights of real frost (down to 26-28F), so I may soon have some new data on frost hardiness of our winter growers. -- Paul Licht, Director Univ. California Botanical Garden 200 Centennial Drive Berkeley, CA 94720 (510)-643-8999 http://botanicalgarden.berkeley.edu From arnold@nj.rr.com Thu Dec 18 17:55:49 2008 Message-Id: <494AD4A1.5040702@nj.rr.com> From: Arnold Trachtenberg Subject: Plant availability and the value of PBS Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2008 17:54:25 -0500 Paul: I think the term "PBS Guardian Angle" would be a better fit. Arnold From kellso@irvincentral.com Thu Dec 18 18:31:05 2008 Message-Id: <494ADD2B.1050900@irvincentral.com> From: Kelly Irvin Subject: Plant availability and the value of PBS Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2008 17:30:51 -0600 Arnold: I'm sure you meant "PBS Guardian Angel". ---Your Guardian Uncle Arnold Trachtenberg wrote: > Paul: > > I think the term "PBS Guardian Angle" would be a better fit. From arnold@nj.rr.com Thu Dec 18 20:47:42 2008 Message-Id: <494AFCE9.1020704@nj.rr.com> From: Arnold Trachtenberg Subject: Plant availability and the value of PBS Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2008 20:46:17 -0500 Kelly: Well, Mary Sue is and ANGEL no matter which ANGLE you look at it from. Arnold From oothal@hotmail.com Fri Dec 19 20:49:29 2008 Message-Id: From: Justin Smith Subject: potential flower colors question Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2008 19:49:28 -0600 Hi all, I have been wondering if there is any kind of set rule as to possible flower color variations you can get from seed. Like if you plant seed from a blue flower what are the possible colors you can get? Is it "possible though not probable" to get lets say pink? Or would the colors be like white, and the many shades of blue going from white to blue. Or is any color possible though just not probable? Though I should have not slept during my science classes, but it's too late to go back. Thanks for any insight into this question. Justin Smith Woodville, TX zone 8b, or is it now 9? _________________________________________________________________ Life on your PC is safer, easier, and more enjoyable with Windows Vista®. http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/127032870/direct/01/ From othonna@gmail.com Fri Dec 19 22:00:16 2008 Message-Id: <8e8da5260812191900n74585287n2b2ece326d41cba6@mail.gmail.com> From: Hannon Subject: potential flower colors question Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2008 19:00:15 -0800 Justin, While this is not my subject at all, I can offer a few points from observation and what I learned from gifted breeders like Fred Meyer. There are "rules" in color inheritance and in what "color breaks" are likely or possible according to the color of the parent(s). For instance, it is not especially unusual to get a yellow "sport" or "morph" from a batch of seedlings of a plant that is typically orange- or red-flowered. This is called a color break, a clean break as it were from the original or typical color of the species. Examples include Crocosmia, Clivia, Tigridia pavonia, Mimulus, marigolds, etc. They often turn up as individuals rather than populations. A break to red or orange in a normally yellow-flowered plant seems to be much less common. Blue flowers can also break to yellow, as species in genera like Delphinium or Iris. Breaks from orange-red to blue-purple or the reverse are rare. The rules have to do with genes that control color obviously but they are often complex. What we interpret as "a color" may be two or more colors in different layers of tissues that give an overall monochromatic effect. So, if one layer can be bred out you get a different color result. Another example is breeding yellow flowers by "pulling out" the yellow color in the throat of an otherwise red flower by continuous breeding. What can occur naturally I think is largely a determinant in what can be done in breeding, but some pretty amazing things have been accomplished with embryo rescue and gene splicing. One might ask, rather than "Is it possible?" -- "Is it cost-effective?" Sorry to give you such an incomplete idea of this subject, I wish I knew more myself. Rest assured plant breeders know a LOT about this subject and much of it is written up in appropriate journals. Dylan Hannon From jimmckenney@jimmckenney.com Fri Dec 19 22:36:44 2008 Message-Id: <002b01c96254$a94535f0$2f01a8c0@Library> From: "Jim McKenney" Subject: potential flower colors question Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2008 22:40:09 -0500 Justin, as with Hannon this is hardly my field of expertise, but I do know a thing or two about this topic. If you are thinking about breeding plants yourself, there is one big mistake you can avoid. There are two big groups of flower pigments, the anthocyanins and the anthoxanthins. As the names suggest, the anthocyanins are responsible for purples, magentas, blues, and blue-reds. The anthoxanthins are responsible, as the name suggests, for yellows and the reds and oranges with a strong yellow component. Many genera have species in which one or the other type of pigment prevails. When you cross a species with predominately anthocyanin based color with a species with anthoxanthin based color, you get mud in the first generation. Well not mud, but you get clouded, smudgy, smoky, muted colors which generally lack brilliance. If you would like to see some of these colors, try to find old (pre WWII) cultivars of bearded iris or asiatic hybrid lilies from the 1950s and early 1960s. The modern crocus hybrid ‘Advance’ provides another example. As Hannon hinted, you’ll discover that this is a vast topic. Use wikipedia as a start. By the way, I don’t really carry around details like this in my head; I just happened to be reading the wikipedia account of anthocyanins the other day in connection to another topic. Another thing you’ll discover there is the way pH influences color: change the pH in which the pigments float and you get sometimes big color changes. Back in the old days people used to ad baking soda to the water in which cabbage and other vegetables were cooked: it tended to intensify the green color. I think I’ve read that red cabbage cooked with baking soda turns startling and un-appetizing blue (but check that one out). . There is a fascinating world of stuff to know about this. Good luck and have fun with it. Jim McKenney jimmckenney@jimmckenney.com Montgomery County, Maryland, USA, 39.03871º North, 77.09829º West, USDA zone 7 My Virtual Maryland Garden http://www.jimmckenney.com BLOG! http://mcwort.blogspot.com/ Webmaster Potomac Valley Chapter, NARGS Editor PVC Bulletin http://www.pvcnargs.org Webmaster Potomac Lily Society http://www.potomaclilysociety.org From jwaddick@kc.rr.com Sat Dec 20 11:35:53 2008 Message-Id: From: James Waddick Subject: Web site Date: Sat, 20 Dec 2008 10:37:55 -0600 Dear Friends, I just visited a new web site to me and thought I'd pass it along. I am not giving any up or down to it and can't vouch for anything, but take a look. http://www.edensblooms.com/home I was especially fond of the new Hadco Amaryllis (Hippeastrum). Lots of flowers per stem ! and a wide range of H. cybister hybrids, too. Nice to look at on a cold winter's day. Jim W. -- Dr. James W. Waddick 8871 NW Brostrom Rd. Kansas City Missouri 64152-2711 USA Ph. 816-746-1949 Zone 5 Record low -23F Summer 100F + From HHeaven77@aol.com Sat Dec 20 12:32:45 2008 Message-Id: <8CB30E00EC548EC-BF4-1A72@mblk-d25.sysops.aol.com> From: hheaven77@aol.com Subject: Web site Date: Sat, 20 Dec 2008 12:32:26 -0500 I have ordered from them with mixed results.? They sell on eBay as "rarebulbs".? Questions about culture usually go unanswered...so be prepared to do your own research. Celeste G. -----Original Message----- From: James Waddick To: Pacific Bulb Society Sent: Sat, 20 Dec 2008 9:37 am Subject: [pbs] Web site Dear Friends, I just visited a new web site to me and thought I'd pass it along. I am not giving any up or down to it and can't vouch for anything, but take a look. http://www.edensblooms.com/home I was especially fond of the new Hadco Amaryllis (Hippeastrum). Lots of flowers per stem ! and a wide range of H. cybister hybrids, too. Nice to look at on a cold winter's day. Jim W. -- Dr. James W. Waddick 8871 NW Brostrom Rd. Kansas City Missouri 64152-2711 USA Ph. 816-746-1949 Zone 5 Record low -23F Summer 100F + _______________________________________________ pbs mailing list pbs@lists.ibiblio.org http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php http://pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki From miller7398@comcast.net Sat Dec 20 13:40:33 2008 Message-Id: <001401c962d2$68126520$dcd61b4c@tapa965> From: "Joyce Miller" Subject: Web site Date: Sat, 20 Dec 2008 10:40:17 -0800 Hi, I ordered Hipps and other genera from them in September. To date no bulbs. They said they held the entire order because one provider had not provided bulbs. They said they sent an informative email but I did not receive one. When I called about the order last week, they agreed to send 3 bulbs directly to two friends. Haven't heard whether they got them yet. Best, Joyce Miller ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Saturday, December 20, 2008 9:32 AM Subject: Re: [pbs] Web site >I have ordered from them with mixed results.? They sell on eBay as >"rarebulbs".? Questions about culture usually go unanswered...so be >prepared to do your own research. > Celeste G. > > > -----Original Message----- > From: James Waddick > To: Pacific Bulb Society > Sent: Sat, 20 Dec 2008 9:37 am > Subject: [pbs] Web site > > > > Dear Friends, > I just visited a new web site to me and thought I'd pass it along. > I am not giving any up or down to it and can't vouch for > anything, but take a look. > > > http://www.edensblooms.com/home > > I was especially fond of the new Hadco Amaryllis > (Hippeastrum). Lots of flowers per stem ! > > and a wide range of H. cybister hybrids, too. > > > Nice to look at on a cold winter's day. Jim W. > -- > Dr. James W. Waddick > 8871 NW Brostrom Rd. > Kansas City Missouri 64152-2711 > USA > Ph. 816-746-1949 > Zone 5 Record low -23F > Summer 100F + > > _______________________________________________ > pbs mailing list > pbs@lists.ibiblio.org > http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php > http://pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki > > _______________________________________________ > pbs mailing list > pbs@lists.ibiblio.org > http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php > http://pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki > > __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus > signature database 3708 (20081220) __________ > > The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. > > http://www.eset.com > > > From totototo@telus.net Sat Dec 20 15:06:01 2008 Message-Id: <494CDFA2.276.848B@localhost> From: totototo@telus.net Subject: potential flower colors question Date: Sat, 20 Dec 2008 12:05:54 -0800 Many flower colors are due to the presence of more than one pigment. Our local large camas, /Camassia leichtlinii ssp. suksdorfii/, clearly has a deep blue pigment with lesser amounts of a rather muddy purplish pigment. The combination in the usual flower gives the deep saturated blue-purple characteristic of this subspecies (and also of /Camassia quamash/). Years of scouting around for color variants have yielded a number of white, near-white, sky-blues, and so on. Once, just once, I thought I saw a pink flowered form, but as the sun was low, this may have been due to the reddish evening light. Oddly enough, the type of this species occurs only around Roseburg, Oregon, and is a pale creamy yellow. Luther Burbank at one time was working with /Camassia/. The multi-volume "Harvest of the Years" has a colored illustration of his trial patch, but the color is not photographic, so it's hard to say if he actually had the range of colors depicted. /Cichorium intybus/, a common roadside weed that lines our highways with skyblue in late summer and early fall, seems to have the same combination of pigments, but its blue is much less saturated. A good white flowered form turned up once, I've seen the odd pink once or twice, and I've also seen plants with a deeper blue. At the other end of the spectrum, consider /Tulipa sprengeri/, which has a uniquely glowing red flower. I'm convinced that this is a red pigment plus a yellow pigment, and keep hoping for a yellow-flowered specimen to turn up among the many self-sown seedlings in my garden. So far no luck. -- Rodger Whitlock Victoria, British Columbia, Canada Maritime Zone 8, a cool Mediterranean climate on beautiful Vancouver Island http://maps.google.ca/maps?q=48.4676,-123.3262&ll=48.4676,-123.3262&z=14 From totototo@telus.net Sat Dec 20 15:06:02 2008 Message-Id: <494CDFA2.29786.847F@localhost> From: totototo@telus.net Subject: Web site Date: Sat, 20 Dec 2008 12:05:54 -0800 On 20 Dec 2008, at 10:37, James Waddick wrote: > http://www.edensblooms.com/home > > I was especially fond of the new Hadco Amaryllis > (Hippeastrum). Lots of flowers per stem ! These are turning up at my local grocery store, potted, with flower spikes. The ones I've seen with the flowers open looked pretty nice. -- Rodger Whitlock Victoria, British Columbia, Canada Maritime Zone 8, a cool Mediterranean climate on beautiful Vancouver Island http://maps.google.ca/maps?q=48.4676,-123.3262&ll=48.4676,-123.3262&z=14 From oothal@hotmail.com Sat Dec 20 15:49:33 2008 Message-Id: From: Justin Smith Subject: potential flower colors question Date: Sat, 20 Dec 2008 14:49:31 -0600 Thanks everyone for the info. This subject is much more scientific than I would have ever guessed. Though now I have a good starting place to look for more info. Justin Woodville, TX 8b/9a _________________________________________________________________ Send e-mail anywhere. No map, no compass. http://windowslive.com/oneline/hotmail?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_hotmail_acq_anywhere_122008 From dells@voicenet.com Sun Dec 21 11:04:22 2008 Message-Id: From: "Dell Sherk" Subject: Pacific Bulb Society Holiday Clearance Sale Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2008 11:03:03 -0500 From djordan68@comcast.net Sun Dec 21 11:05:57 2008 Message-Id: <9B53A293B657451ABB5A3CC33BF82844@debbiePC> From: "Deborah Jordan" Subject: Pacific Bulb Society Holiday Clearance Sale Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2008 10:05:47 -0600 Dell, Is there supposed to be a subject here? Debbie ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dell Sherk" To: "'Adam Fikso'" ; "'c'" ; ; "Douglas Westfall" ; "General PBS forum" ; "John Lonsdale" ; "'Macfarlane'" ; "'Mark'" ; "'Mark Wilcox'" ; "Pat Colville" ; "The Masterson Family" Sent: Sunday, December 21, 2008 10:03 AM Subject: [pbs] Pacific Bulb Society Holiday Clearance Sale > > > _______________________________________________ > pbs mailing list > pbs@lists.ibiblio.org > http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php > http://pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki From toadlily@olywa.net Sun Dec 21 14:11:28 2008 Message-Id: <494E94F0.7080106@olywa.net> From: Laura & Dave Subject: Pacific Bulb Society Holiday Clearance Sale Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2008 11:11:44 -0800 Hi Dell and all! This list appears just like the view out the window ... all white. Yes, the rainy Pacific Northwest has been in a deep freeze for the last week, and we woke up to a nearly 14 inch accumulation of snow. Not much by some people's standards, but a whooping lot for us. The kids and I went and made snowmen on the State Capital campus, providing a little cheer for the workers. May all your Holidays be merry !! Dave Brastow Tumwater, Washington -USA- : zone 7A, they say ! From idavide@sbcglobal.net Sun Dec 21 16:47:08 2008 Message-Id: <853696.10191.qm@web81004.mail.mud.yahoo.com> From: David Ehrlich Subject: Balukraut Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2008 13:47:07 -0800 (PST) Jim,     The blue is astonishing, but not unappetizing.  I remember the first time I made pizzoccheri, for the verdura I had some red cabbage, which in this preparation is cooked at the same time in the same water as the pasta.  When I uncovered the pot, I found the blue astonishing.  However, it was a most delicious preparation.  And, there was someting exciting about eating a food so patetly blue.  Had I had a Blue Nun Riesling at the time, it would definitely have been the wine to serve with it.     Did you know that in the German speaking world, in the part where cabbage is called Kohl, red cabbage is called Rotkohl, but in the part where cabbage is called Kraut( e.g., Tyrol and Alt’ Adige), red cabbage is called Blaukraut?     And that is not the only appealing blue food; consider blueberries, blue potatoes, and even blue cheese.   David Ehrlich From jimmckenney@jimmckenney.com Sun Dec 21 17:46:19 2008 Message-Id: <000c01c963be$7072d640$2f01a8c0@Library> From: "Jim McKenney" Subject: Blaukraut Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2008 17:49:52 -0500 David Ehrlich wrote: "I remember the first time I made pizzoccheri..." Thanks, David, that's interesting. Pizzoccheri are new to me; I had to Google that one. I noticed that they also have the German name Graubünden. That's very northern Italian, isn't it? Do they taste anything like soba (Japanese buckwheat noodles)? I knew about Rotkohl; if someone sent me out for Blaukraut, I probably would have brought back a green cabbage with a heavy glaucous bloom - in other words, the wrong one. I know this is wandering more and more off topic, but cabbage is one of the culinary delights of my maturity. I hated it as a kid because no one I knew knew how to cook it. It turns into a disgusting, stinking, slimy mess when boiled too long, and that's all I got as a kid. But blanched briefly and then sautéed in seasoned fat or oil - wow! I thank my mother for teaching us to love blue cheese, and certain other foods such as crabs which a lot of people won't touch. Until recently I wouldn't touch anchovies. I think as a kid vivid green was my idea of the color of poison (did that come from Snow White or the Wizard of Oz?). Yet I've always loved vegetables. As an adult, blue still seems to be the most unnatural of colors for food, although as you note there are plenty of delicious foods which are bluish. Have you ever tried the little blue pea flowers sometimes sprinkled on Indian food? I think it's time to go in and fix dinner! Jim McKenney From jshields@indy.net Sun Dec 21 18:02:03 2008 Message-Id: <5.1.0.14.2.20081221175230.01cf9608@pop.indy.net> From: "J.E. Shields" Subject: Blaukraut Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2008 18:02:36 -0500 Hi all, Now you're touching on two non-bulb interests of mine: German/Swiss food and the German language. Graubünden is a Canton or State within Switzerland. Graubünden is in the most southeastern corner of Switzerland, and borders on northern Italy. The language of Graubünden is Romansch, and is much more closely related to Rumanian and Portuguese than to Italian. There are only about 20,000 native speakers of Romasch left today. In Swiss-German dialect, red cabbage is called either Blaukraut (but with a peculiarly Swiss pronunciation) or Rotkabis. It tastes very good by either name and is one of my favorite vegetables. Best wishes, Jim Shields, Swiss by marriage At 05:49 PM 12/21/2008 -0500, you wrote: >...... >Pizzoccheri are new to me; I had to Google that one. I noticed that they >also have the German name Graubünden. That's very northern Italian, isn't >it? Do they taste anything like soba (Japanese buckwheat noodles)? > >I knew about Rotkohl; if someone sent me out for Blaukraut, I probably would >have brought back a green cabbage with a heavy glaucous bloom - in other >words, the wrong one. I know this is wandering more and more off topic, but >cabbage is one of the culinary delights of my maturity. I hated it as a kid >because no one I knew knew how to cook it. It turns into a disgusting, >stinking, slimy mess when boiled too long, and that's all I got as a kid. >But blanched briefly and then sautéed in seasoned fat or oil - wow! >....... >Jim McKenney ************************************************* Jim Shields USDA Zone 5 Shields Gardens, Ltd. P.O. Box 92 WWW: http://www.shieldsgardens.com/ Westfield, Indiana 46074, USA Tel. ++1-317-867-3344 or toll-free 1-866-449-3344 in USA From msittner@mcn.org Sun Dec 21 20:07:32 2008 Message-Id: <5.2.0.9.2.20081221170418.0355e298@mail.mcn.org> From: Mary Sue Ittner Subject: Fwd: Pacific Bulb Society Holiday Clearance Sale Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2008 17:07:11 -0800 Note from Mary Sue: This message was sent to our list in html which was why it arrived blank. Messages to our list must be sent in text or html and text so that after the html is stripped the text will remain. In html it also was 150502 bytes which exceeds our limit for size of message to this list by quite a lot. Greetings, Pacific Bulb Society member, Extra seed from the Pacific Bulb Society Bulb and Seed Exchange (BX) is available now for a reduced price. See the list which is attached. Seed that was harvested one year ago or less is priced at $1.00/pkt, and seed from the 2006 harvest is only $.50 / pkt. All of the seed has been stored in cool, dry conditions to preserve its viability. A small shipping and handling charge will be added on heavy or bulky orders. A bill will be included with your shipment. If you are interested in obtaining some of this seed, please email me at dells@voicenet.com or mail your order to Dell Sherk, 6832 Phillips Mill Rd., New Hope, PA 18938. Orders will be filled on a first come first served basis, and some supplies are limited. You may order up to three packets of any one variety. Please order by the numbers to the left of the species list. Please be sure to include your mailing address. Best wishes, Dell Dell Sherk, Director, PBS BX 2008 SEED ($1.00/pkt) # of pkts 1Albuca cf spiralis 2Albuca nelsonii 3Allium obliqua 4Amorphophallus prainii 5Aristea ecklonii 6Arthropodium cirrhatum 7Arum maculatum 8Asclepias curassavica 9Babiana nana angustifolia 10Bellevalia romana 11Bomarea caldasii 12Brodiaea elegans 13Calochortus amabilis 14Calochortus aureus 15Calochortus concolor 16Calochortus flexuosus 17Calochortus gunnisoni 18Calochortus plummerae 19Calochortus venustus 20Canna glauca 21Canna sp., dwarf 22Chasmanthe bicolor 23Cypella coelestis 24Cypella herberti 25Cyrtanthus aff o'brienii 26Datura inoxia 27Delphinium cardinale, yellow 28Dierama pendulum 29Dietes grandiflora 30Drancunculus vulgaris 31Dyckia hybs 32Eremerus himalaicus 33Ferraria crispa 34Freesia laxa 35Fritillaria affinis 36Fritillaria atropurpurea 37Fritillaria biflora 38Fritillaria imperialis rubra 39Fritillaria pallidiflora 40Fritillaria persica 'Ivory Bells' 41Galtonia viridiflora 42Gelasine elongata (azurea) 43Gladiolus grandiflorus 44Gladiolus huttoni hybs 45Gladiolus illyricus 46Gladiolus sp (segetum?) 47Habranthus martinezi 48Habranthus robustus 49Habranthus tubispathus 50Herbertia lahue 51Herbertia lahue amoena 52Herbertia pulchella 53Hippeastrum 'Lemon Lime' x 'Picotee' 54Hippeastrum 'Orange Sovereign' 55Hippeastrum vittatum 56Iris graminea 57Iris laevigata 58Iris magnifica 59Iris missouriensis arizonica 60Iris tectorum 'Sun Moon Lake' 61Iris 'Wild Survivor' 62Iris wilsonii 63Lilium martagon 64Lilium pumilum 65Lilium regale 66Massonia echinata 67Massonia pustulata 68Moraea ochroleuca 69Nectaroscordum siculum 70Onixotis stricta 71Ornithogalum pyrenaicum 72Ornithogalum reverchoni 73Ornithogalum sp, yellow 74Ornithogalum sp., yellow & green fl 75Paeonia japonica 76Ranunculus macranthus 77Rhodophiala granatiflora 78Romulea citrina 79Romulea grandiscapa 80Rudbeckia maxima 81Salvia patens 82Sisyrinchium californicum 83Sisyrinchium striatum 84Sparaxis hybrids 85Tropaeolum pentaphyllum 86Tulbaghia acutiloba 87Tulbaghia simlerii 88Veltheimia bracteata 89Watsonia coccinea 90Zantedeschia albomaculata 91Zephyranthes atamasco 92Zephyranthes macrosiphon 93Zephyranthes primulina 2006 SEED: ($.50/pkt) (quantities limited) 101Iris cristata 102Iris ensata ex. Korea 103Iris foetidissima 'Dart Hill' 104Iris gracilipes 'Buko' form 105Iris hookeri ex. Newfoundland 106Iris laevigata 'Orizuru' 107Iris magnifica 108Iris sibirica, tall, white 109Iris tectorum, blue 110Iris unguicularis 111Iris versicolor 'Between the Lines' 112Iris versicolor 'Epic Poem' 113Iris versicolor 'Whodunit' From idavide@sbcglobal.net Sun Dec 21 21:18:24 2008 Message-Id: <438167.48890.qm@web81007.mail.mud.yahoo.com> From: David Ehrlich Subject: Blaukraut Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2008 18:18:22 -0800 (PST) Pizzoccheri is eaten in Valtelina and adjacent Italian speaking parts of Graubünden.  I don’t think there is any German or Rhaeto-Romance name for the noodle.  To me, it tastes nothing like soba, and you certainly couldn’t substitute one for the other.  But then, you wouldn’t substitute occhi di lupo for fettucini in a simple butter sauce, though they are both made from wheat.   Overcooked cabbage is folkloric; in Italian cavolo riscaldato is a standard expression of disapprobation.  But I'm not familiar with similar expressions in other languages. From jimmckenney@jimmckenney.com Sun Dec 21 21:46:17 2008 Message-Id: <000d01c963df$f6ab7b60$2f01a8c0@Library> From: "Jim McKenney" Subject: Blaukraut Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2008 21:49:50 -0500 David Ehrlich wrote: "in Italian cavolo riscaldato is a standard expression of disapprobation." What wonderful names: occhi di lupo (wolf's eyes, right?). About thirty-five years ago I worked briefly in Manhattan and lived in nearby Brooklyn, NY. What a wonderful experience that was. I spent my weekends visiting the markets in the various neighborhoods, especially Chinese and Italian. I'll never forget the day I pointed to some vaguely collard-like greens in a market and asked the matronly shop keeper what they were. "Calvoli" she replied, giving the initial C a slight coup de la glotte. But the printed word will never convey the beauty of the sounds she produced as she said it. "Encore!" I begged, and she said it again as I stood there seriously studying her face and trying hard to hear every delicious bit of sound, she all the while smiling at the effect her performance was having on me. Such beautiful sounds in the service of such mundane activity: what a language! Jim McKenney From johannes-ulrich-urban@T-Online.de Tue Dec 23 06:48:42 2008 Message-Id: <1LF5kK-225TO40@fwd10.aul.t-online.de> From: "Uli Urban" Subject: Off Topic Christmas greeting from Germany Date: 23 Dec 2008 11:36 GMT Dear All, All the best for all of you for Christmas and the New Year! Frohe Weihnachten und ein gutes neues Jahr! Reading the contributions about the non-bulbous Rotkohl and being German I cannot help giving you the recipe for preparing it, hoping this delicious vegetable ist available in the US. The traditional way is using very much fat (pork fat "schmalz") but I have reduced this without loss of flavour. Fry onions in some Olive oil or other fat until they become translucent. Then add a very small amount of water and the not too finely chopped (inch long strips) raw red cabbage. The extra with this recipe is to add peeled and chopped apple, preferably one of the sour cooking varieties. (about one or two apples per 500g of cabbage) As spice it needs some, not too many, cloves and laurel leaves, some salt and ground black pepper but it should not be "hot" Even with apples in it it needs some more acidity which will help to preserve the purple colour. Some people use vinegar but personally I prefer red gooseberry jelly or cranberry preserve. The sugar in it (if it is not too much) is beneficial, small amounts of vinegar can always be added to taste but it should not dominate.. Then cook or simmer this on low heat until the apples disintegrate and the cabbage becomes soft, stir form time to time and make sure it does not stick and burn to the pot. But take care not to overcook the cabbage, the structure of the cabbage should not disintegrate. Even better re-heated the next day or so. Hmmmm...... Delicious with roast duck or goose, and maybe turkey in the US. It is also available ready made in tins or glasses but the home made is by far better..... one of the traditional winter vegs in Germany till to-day. All the best again.... Uli From j.grimshaw@virgin.net Tue Dec 23 07:03:19 2008 Message-Id: <011a01c964f6$4d310380$0401a8c0@MAINPC> From: "John Grimshaw" Subject: Off Topic Christmas greeting from Germany Date: Tue, 23 Dec 2008 12:02:16 -0000 Uli's red cabbage recipe sounds delicious... I am going to try it with some of the fat that poured out of last Sunday's roast goose (which we ate with the geophytic combination of roast beetroot and red onions (with herbs, cumin and muscovado sugar), and roast potatoes (cooked in the goose fat)). However, for Anglophonic readers it might be useful to note that where Uli's recipe says 'laurel' leaves, the foliage of Laurus nobilis, Bay Tree is meant - not one of evergreen Prunus typically called laurel in English (Prunus laurocerasus, P. lusitanica). John Grimshaw Dr. John M. Grimshaw Sycamore Cottage Colesbourne Cheltenham Gloucestershire GL53 9NP Tel. 01242 870567 ----- Original Message ----- From: "Uli Urban" > Dear All, > > > (about one or two apples per 500g of cabbage) As spice it needs some, > not too many, cloves and laurel leaves, some salt and ground black > pepper From jimmckenney@jimmckenney.com Tue Dec 23 10:42:15 2008 Message-Id: <002701c96515$83852730$2f01a8c0@Library> From: "Jim McKenney" Subject: Off Topic Christmas greeting from Germany Date: Tue, 23 Dec 2008 10:45:41 -0500 John Grimshaw wrote: “However, for Anglophonic readers it might be useful to note that where Uli's recipe says 'laurel' leaves, the foliage of Laurus nobilis, Bay Tree is meant - not one of evergreen Prunus typically called laurel in English (Prunus laurocerasus, P. lusitanica).” And certainly not Mountain Laurel, Kalmis latifolia, which even the deer apparently do not touch until they are on the verge of starvation. Uli, your recipe looks tasty; I think I might be tempted to add some juniper berries. What do you think? Season’s Greetings, everyone. Jim McKenney jimmckenney@jimmckenney.com Montgomery County, Maryland, USA, 39.03871º North, 77.09829º West, USDA zone 7 My Virtual Maryland Garden http://www.jimmckenney.com BLOG! http://mcwort.blogspot.com/ Webmaster Potomac Valley Chapter, NARGS Editor PVC Bulletin http://www.pvcnargs.org Webmaster Potomac Lily Society http://www.potomaclilysociety.org From leo@possi.org Wed Dec 24 13:30:12 2008 Message-Id: <3d1ecf4a6ce5b979ef6213f79eaa099d.squirrel@www.possi.org> From: "Leo A. Martin" Subject: Blaukraut Date: Wed, 24 Dec 2008 10:30:10 -0800 (PST) I like to eat salads but lettuce doesn't keep that long. Shredded cabbage makes a wonderful salad and keeps in the refrigerator crisper for at least a week. Here's a salad suggestion: Shredded cabbage (any color) Dried tomato bits Pignoli (pine nuts) or almonds or walnuts Golden raisins Dressing: Olive oil, balsamic vinegar, dash of Angostura bitters Sprinkle with freshly-grated Parmesan Leo Martin Phoenix Arizona USA From leo@possi.org Wed Dec 24 13:38:29 2008 Message-Id: <1937c1011cdc7eb37168cfc5d09d5293.squirrel@www.possi.org> From: "Leo A. Martin" Subject: Mountain Laurel Date: Wed, 24 Dec 2008 10:38:28 -0800 (PST) > And certainly not Mountain Laurel, Kalmia latifolia, which even the deer > apparently do not touch until they are on the verge of starvation. I seem to recall one ancient Greek city-state's army was wiped out after they feasted on Kalmia honey, went unconscious, were discovered and killed by another Greek city-state's army. Any confirmation? From arnold@nj.rr.com Wed Dec 24 13:46:15 2008 Message-Id: <49528321.9000908@nj.rr.com> From: Arnold Trachtenberg Subject: Mountain Laurel Date: Wed, 24 Dec 2008 13:44:49 -0500 Being somewhat of a honey enthusiast, I recall that there is a honey produced from a rhododendron that is toxic. My favorite is from the leatherwood tree ( Eucryphia lucida) native to Tasmania. Arnold Found a reference. http://www.ibiblio.org/pub/academic/agriculture/entomology/beekeeping/general/bees_history/toxic_honey.txt From ds429@comcast.net Wed Dec 24 13:57:21 2008 Message-Id: <001001c965f9$732e8360$598b8a20$@net> From: "Dell Sherk" Subject: Mountain Laurel --- vaguely Date: Wed, 24 Dec 2008 13:57:20 -0500 Once I was hiking along the Appalachian Trail in Pennsylvania, in May, I think, and when I came to a powerline cut that let in the sun, the whole area was thick with blooming mountain laurel, the state flower of PA. It was beautiful and fragrant in such profusion, and I, then, understood why someone had decided that it should be our state flower. Merry Christmas, Dell -----Original Message----- From: pbs-bounces@lists.ibiblio.org [mailto:pbs-bounces@lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf Of Leo A. Martin Sent: Wednesday, December 24, 2008 1:38 PM To: pbs@lists.ibiblio.org Subject: Re: [pbs] Mountain Laurel > And certainly not Mountain Laurel, Kalmia latifolia, which even the deer > apparently do not touch until they are on the verge of starvation. I seem to recall one ancient Greek city-state's army was wiped out after they feasted on Kalmia honey, went unconscious, were discovered and killed by another Greek city-state's army. Any confirmation? _______________________________________________ pbs mailing list pbs@lists.ibiblio.org http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php http://pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki From markmazerandfm13@earthlink.net Wed Dec 24 14:30:55 2008 Message-Id: <29262034.1230147055429.JavaMail.root@elwamui-ovcar.atl.sa.earthlink.net> From: Mark Mazer Subject: Mountain Laurel Date: Wed, 24 Dec 2008 14:30:55 -0500 (GMT-05:00) > >I seem to recall one ancient Greek city-state's army was wiped out after >they feasted on Kalmia honey, went unconscious, were discovered and killed >by another Greek city-state's army. Any confirmation? > Hi Leo, Kalmia angustifolia (sheeplaurel or lambkill) is the one that produces toxic honey. If ever in Connecticut during June, a visit to Dick Jaynes' Broken Arrow Nursery is a treat for all mountain laurel lovers. Mark Mazer Hertford, NC From jegrace@rose.net Wed Dec 24 14:43:32 2008 Message-Id: <20081224194332.1D61B4C024@lists.ibiblio.org> From: "jegrace" Subject: Winter sowing geophytes Date: Wed, 24 Dec 2008 14:43:28 -0500 Here's a question to ponder on Christmas Eve......any input would be most helpful! So far our fall has been colder than normal, which usually means a cold winter. By cold in South Georgia (USDA hardiness zone 8b) I mean that we will have freezes in the low 30's F, hard freezes in the 20's F, and possibly even some temps in the teens. Our weather generally swings back (heaven help us today it's in the 70s) but I have already dealt with several hard freezes over the last couple of months that would not usually hit until January. Since the promised cool greenhouse has not been built that means lots of covering and uncovering of plants. A wise collector would limit her planting at this point to things that do not require extra care until spring, especially because my collection is already causing a lot of work. Of course, a wise collector wouldn't be a member of PBS, IBS, FDS, CSSA and ICPA, hold a full time job, and have just moved all of her plants to a new home. Having admitted that I am not a wise collector (anyway, I think that's an oxymoron) I have been thinking about how to use the weather to my advantage. This would be a perfect year to test wintersowing of seeds. Those that require warmth and babying could be grown indoors with or without a heat mat but that could only be a few if I want my husband to remain calm. I have seeds of a few different Zephyranthes yet to sow, those will probably be in this first category and I might have room for one or two other plants. What I am really looking for are seed-producing geophytes that prefer to be sown outdoors in the winter and mostly ignored until spring, ie seeds that like or can tolerate some stratification but don't require a severe winter. My climate is not condusive to plants that prefer a long steady chill every year, many winters are mild and our summers are brutally hot- AHS heat zone 9. This would, however, be a great time to get some seedlings established before summer hits. Also this time of year I both have free time and can stand to be outdoors midday without passing out from heat stroke. I have lost many tender seedlings to heat, lack of water, or an overage of water during the summer. (including, alas, some beauties from Silverhill) Suggestions, anyone? What seeds would have the best chance? Thank you. Again, any input would be most appreciated! Oh, and Merry Christmas! Erin Grace Thomasville, Georgia USA USDA hardiness zone 8b, AHS heat zone 9 From alanidae@gmail.com Wed Dec 24 15:07:14 2008 Message-Id: From: "Alani Davis" Subject: Mountain Laurel Date: Wed, 24 Dec 2008 15:07:10 -0500 I was just researching toxicity of Kalmia latifolia last week ironically. Both Rhododendron and Kalmia are attributed to imparting toxicity to honey make from their pollens. Kalmia angustifolia *and* Kalmia latifolia are both listed in this, though there needs to be signifcant amount of it around for the honey to actually be lethal. Here in nothwestern Florida, at the other end of Kalmia latifolia's range they are not as wide spread as further north but can be locally common and are just as enjoyable. I just found that there where three large specimens growing wild at my neighbors that will be a treat to seen in flower in the spring. As to ancient Greece though, not likely to be Kalmia as it is a North American genus with the possilble exception of the Cuban species. Alani Davis Tallahassee, Fl From alanidae@gmail.com Wed Dec 24 15:32:30 2008 Message-Id: From: "Alani Davis" Subject: Winter sowing geophytes Date: Wed, 24 Dec 2008 15:32:28 -0500 "wise collectors" ... there is a ponder, but I think that would imply one carries the wisdom to prevent the death of ones collections, but "collector" fairly presumes a lack of economic or chronometric "sense" in my experience ;) One of my original attractions to geophytes was do a frustration with difficult seeds. Without heat most seeds just seem to wait until spring and natural warmth even in a cool greenhouse. Without even a cool greenhouse the only one for here that comes to mind would be garlic chives. Not too inspiring I know. Alani Davis Tallahassee, Fl From jegrace@rose.net Wed Dec 24 15:48:12 2008 Message-Id: <20081224204811.C7A4A4C01C@lists.ibiblio.org> From: "jegrace" Subject: Winter sowing geophytes Date: Wed, 24 Dec 2008 15:48:08 -0500 It would be fine for seeds to wait until spring to sprout, I would just hate to be wasting my time planting things now that prefered to be planted when the natural warmth occurred. As spring is so short here (2 weeks some years) I'm never sure when that window will appear. Jim and Erin Grace, Thomasville, GA -----Original Message----- From: pbs-bounces@lists.ibiblio.org [mailto:pbs-bounces@lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf Of Alani Davis Sent: Wednesday, December 24, 2008 3:32 PM To: Pacific Bulb Society Subject: Re: [pbs] Winter sowing geophytes "wise collectors" ... there is a ponder, but I think that would imply one carries the wisdom to prevent the death of ones collections, but "collector" fairly presumes a lack of economic or chronometric "sense" in my experience ;) One of my original attractions to geophytes was do a frustration with difficult seeds. Without heat most seeds just seem to wait until spring and natural warmth even in a cool greenhouse. Without even a cool greenhouse the only one for here that comes to mind would be garlic chives. Not too inspiring I know. Alani Davis Tallahassee, Fl _______________________________________________ pbs mailing list pbs@lists.ibiblio.org http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php http://pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki From drpaulbear@xtra.co.nz Wed Dec 24 16:59:30 2008 Message-Id: From: Subject: Toxic honey Date: Thu, 25 Dec 2008 10:59:26 +1300 I think that it was Rhododendron ponticum From oothal@hotmail.com Wed Dec 24 17:13:27 2008 Message-Id: From: Justin Smith Subject: Mountain Laurel and honey production Date: Wed, 24 Dec 2008 16:13:25 -0600 > Both Rhododendron and Kalmia are attributed to imparting toxicity to honey> make from their pollens. Kalmia angustifolia *and* Kalmia latifolia are both> listed in this, though there needs to be signifcant amount of it around for> the honey to actually be lethal. Hiya, I raised bee's when I was much younger. The honey is made from the nectar of flowers and pollen is collected to feed the growing young. Bee's don't mind storing cells of pollen right next to the cells of honey. It sounds like it is actually the eating of the stored pollen that got mixed in with the honey. My dad and I always cut out the pollen cells. When harvesting small batches of honey. Like we use to do, I can easily see how some pollen would mingle with the honey if your not careful. Commercial honey produces use centrifugal force to extract honey from the comb. The pollen is not fluid so it does not leave the cell in which it is stored. When harvesting small amounts of honey, you cut out chunks of honeycomb place them in cheese cloth and squeeze the honey out. That is certainly an easy way to mix a small amounts of pollen with the honey. What you are left with is the bees wax and it is ready to melt down and make candles with a very wonderful honey scent. Ancient peoples most likely did not bother to much seperating out the pollen cells. Most likely they did not worry too much about a few brood cells either. That would be a complete meal though. Sweet and full of protein. Sounds yummy but I think I will pass. No brood cells for me, thank you very much. Justin Smith Woodville, TX 8b/9a _________________________________________________________________ Send e-mail anywhere. No map, no compass. http://windowslive.com/oneline/hotmail?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_hotmail_acq_anywhere_122008 From janemcgary@earthlink.net Wed Dec 24 18:20:10 2008 Message-Id: From: Jane McGary Subject: Winter sowing geophytes Date: Wed, 24 Dec 2008 15:12:16 -0800 Erin asked about winter protection in USDA Z8, writing Since the promised cool greenhouse has not been built that means >lots of covering and uncovering of plants. > One of the few advantages of not being married is that you don't have to wait until your husband builds what he has promised. I can't build anything much, but even I can build coldframes or, if I want fancy ones (such as four of the five I use now), I can hire a carpenter to build them. I wrote a chapter on bulb frames (which can also host seedlings, seed pots, and alpines) in the book "Rock garden design and construction." It recently went down to 14 degrees F here and I have been snowed in (literally, can't go anywhere, many roads and highways closed by ice, power often failed, etc.) for 8 days now. I laid microfoam sheet insulation over the bulbs in the frames and shut them, and I expect to lose only a small number of species, based on previous (though shorter) cold snaps. The frames also allow one to control the annual moisture cycle, which would be important for Erin if she wants to grow Mediterranean bulbs in Georgia. A frame is just a box with some kind of clear cover on it. Just make the frame deep enough so that you can leave the cover on when the plants are at their full height, and put something under it to keep out burrowing rodents. Jane McGary From janemcgary@earthlink.net Wed Dec 24 18:20:37 2008 Message-Id: From: Jane McGary Subject: Winter sowing geophytes Date: Wed, 24 Dec 2008 15:19:28 -0800 Alani wrote, One of my original attractions to geophytes was do a frustration with >difficult seeds. Without heat most seeds just seem to wait until spring and >natural warmth even in a cool greenhouse. Without even a cool greenhouse the >only one for here that comes to mind would be garlic chives. Not too >inspiring I know. There is a vast literature on seed germination and the different temperature cycles that individual genera and even species respond to by germinating. Some geophytes germinate in fall as soon as they ahve had a period of warm, dry storage and then get moisture, while others need one or more multi-month periods of moist chilling (not freezing) followed by warmth. In some cases (Cyclamen, for example), fresh seeds germinate quite soon, but stored seeds can take several years to do so. The most mysterious to me is Colchicum, in which something, presumably temperature fluctuations, will trigger germination in several species planted in different years within a week of one another. I wrote a detailed article, also helpfully commented on by John Lonsdale, that appeared about 2 years ago in the Rock Garden Quarterly vol. 65 no. 3. It covers growing many genera of bulbs (not tropical ones, which I don't grow) from seed. It's too long to put in our PBS newsletter, but back issues can be purchased at www.nargs.org Jane McGary From jwaddick@kc.rr.com Wed Dec 24 22:46:31 2008 Message-Id: From: James Waddick Subject: Winter & the joy of PBS Date: Wed, 24 Dec 2008 21:48:44 -0600 Dear Friends, It seems appropriate to chat a bit at the end of the year. In Nov. I tore down an old 'greenhouse', although that doesn't really describe it. It was home made from the old Mother Earth News as "Garden Grow Pit' to start your vegetable seeds in early spring. I replaced it with a more modern aluminum frame polycarbonate covered structure that actually lets in light. We worked to finish it by the last decent weather day of the season and temps have been as cold or colder since global warming became 'in'. We've been to Zero F (-17 C) or slightly below a couple nights in a row and only one day above freezing. Brrr. But a reliable bulb is blooming in the new greenhouse- Tulbaghia simmleri *(aka T. fragrans). The particular bulb is the typical lavender flowered form sent to me by the late Dave Karnstedt. I had grown the white flowered "alba" form for years and it is delightfully fragrant. Dave swore his lavender plant had no scent so we traded. "His" bulb is now in bloom and has a slightly less intense, but very evident scent to me. I also traded a couple to Judy Glattstein - is yours in bloom now, and scented too? Over the years I have sent and received some choice and unique items. That is the treat of PBS in making connections. So this particular bulb has gone from S. CA to Kansas City to OR and New Jersey. Doesn't that say something about PBS? Making connections and communicating. And Dell has made the bulb/seed exchange a world wide success. Just check out any recent offering and find bulbs and seed from various countries and continents. Best wishes for the continued success of PBS and all its generous contributors- even those who listen quietly. And continued success in the NEW YEAR. Happy Holidays Jim W. * My original T. simmleri 'alba' came from a California bulbophile, Robert Parker - an avid collector willing to try anything new and different. -- Dr. James W. Waddick 8871 NW Brostrom Rd. Kansas City Missouri 64152-2711 USA Ph. 816-746-1949 Zone 5 Record low -23F Summer 100F + From totototo@telus.net Wed Dec 24 23:12:55 2008 Message-Id: <495297C4.6641.23B1@localhost> From: totototo@telus.net Subject: Mountain Laurel Date: Wed, 24 Dec 2008 20:12:52 -0800 On 24 Dec 2008, at 14:30, Mark Mazer wrote: > >I seem to recall one ancient Greek city-state's army was wiped out after > >they feasted on Kalmia honey, went unconscious, were discovered and killed by > >another Greek city-state's army. Any confirmation? The account is by Xenophon in "The Anabasis", commonly known as "The March of the Ten Thousand." It's an account of a Greek mercenary army left to its own devices in Mesopotamia and making their way overland though now-Armenia to the Black Sea. Some of the soldiers ate honey during the trek and were sickened or driven mad. The plant responsible is believed to be /Rhododendron ponticum/. The soldiers' famous shout on seeing the sea glinting in the distance "thalassa, thalassa!" is one of the immortal moments in all of literature. The Wikipedia's article on Xenophon http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xenophon is as good a place as any to start exploring, and includes a good map. There's probably a Penguin Classics edition of The Anabasis in English for those wanting to read the book for themselves. I am not aware of another account of toxic honey in the Greek literature, but I'm not an expert on the field so may be wrong-o. -- Rodger Whitlock Victoria, British Columbia, Canada Maritime Zone 8, a cool Mediterranean climate on beautiful Vancouver Island http://maps.google.ca/maps?q=48.4676,-123.3262&ll=48.4676,-123.3262&z=14 From brown.mark@wanadoo.fr Thu Dec 25 03:02:33 2008 Message-Id: <30771475.280886.1230192151729.JavaMail.www@wwinf1c01> From: Mark BROWN Subject: Mountain Laurel Date: Thu, 25 Dec 2008 09:02:31 +0100 (CET) I know of a story of a napoleonic regiment that was devastated when they used Nerium oleander sticks for meat skewers then cooking it ! > Message du 24/12/08 19:38 > De : "Leo A. Martin" > A : pbs@lists.ibiblio.org > Copie à : > Objet : Re: [pbs] Mountain Laurel > > > > And certainly not Mountain Laurel, Kalmia latifolia, which even the deer > > apparently do not touch until they are on the verge of starvation. > > I seem to recall one ancient Greek city-state's army was wiped out after > they feasted on Kalmia honey, went unconscious, were discovered and killed > by another Greek city-state's army. Any confirmation? > > _______________________________________________ > pbs mailing list > pbs@lists.ibiblio.org > http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php > http://pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki > > From jegrace@rose.net Thu Dec 25 08:04:31 2008 Message-Id: <20081225130416.65C794C022@lists.ibiblio.org> From: "jegrace" Subject: Winter sowing geophytes Date: Thu, 25 Dec 2008 08:04:13 -0500 Jane You are a delight! Thank you for your replys. I recently purchased the book, which is on my winter reading list. I will be sure to obtain your article. The promised cool greenhouse is part of the reason we moved- to allow me more room and not to have to ask permission from neighbors. In truth the reason for not owning the greenhouse yet is that our former home has not sold yet and finances are a bit tighter than hoped for. To date I have been able to keep my bulbs warm enough with a layer of pine straw added right before cold nights and pulled away when the weather warms up. My more sensitive aloes, orchid cacti, orchids etc have required blankets. We only moved 5 miles from our home in town but temperatures in the country are much different. I can be scraping ice off my windshield in the morning when there isn't even a bit of frost on the grass in town. Perhaps a cold frame would be better for the bulbs- the moisture issue has concerned me. Our rains, when the come, can be quite dramatic in quantity. Also that might mitigate the problems I am presently having with bulb tags coming out of the pots when I move the straw aside. However, I am beginning to suspect that the true culprits there are my pets......This morning I discovered several little pots overturned and tags scattered, probably the result of a toad hunt by my cat with the help of my Italian Greyhound. Erin Grace Thomasville, Georgia USA USDA Hardiness zone 8b, AHS Heat zone 9 From jshields104@comcast.net Thu Dec 25 09:32:40 2008 Message-Id: <5.1.0.14.2.20081225092022.03447930@mail.comcast.net> From: "J.E. Shields" Subject: Holiday Treasures Date: Thu, 25 Dec 2008 09:33:21 -0500 I have to echo Jim Waddick's comments most enthusiastically. PBS is a treasure chest; and the treasure it contains are the many knowledgeable and enthusiastic plantspeople (i.e., plantsmen and plantswomen) who are its members. We owe a great deal to the guardians of this treasure as well -- our thanks to Mary Sue, to Dell, to Arnold, and to the others past and present who have made PBS work! To all the members of the pbs list, I wish you good health, good luck, and good cheer for the holidays and for the coming year! May your plants grow, your bulbs flower, and your seeds germinate! Best wishes, Jim Shields ************************************************* Jim Shields USDA Zone 5 Shields Gardens, Ltd. P.O. Box 92 WWW: http://www.shieldsgardens.com/ Westfield, Indiana 46074, USA Tel. ++1-317-867-3344 or toll-free 1-866-449-3344 in USA From pasogal@ameritech.net Thu Dec 25 15:59:47 2008 Message-Id: <000001c966d3$a94e8dc0$fbeba940$@net> From: "Annalee" Subject: toxicity of certain honeys Date: Thu, 25 Dec 2008 14:59:20 -0600 My memory base says that the plant was indeed a rhododendron for toxicity of honey From kevin_ink@mac.com Thu Dec 25 16:12:29 2008 Message-Id: From: kevin inkawhich Subject: toxicity of certain honeys Date: Thu, 25 Dec 2008 16:12:00 -0500 WHAT EXACTLY IS THE TOXIC COMPOUND? On Dec 25, 2008, at 3:59 PM, Annalee wrote: > My memory base says that the plant was indeed a rhododendron for > toxicity of > honey > > _______________________________________________ > pbs mailing list > pbs@lists.ibiblio.org > http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php > http://pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki From arnold@nj.rr.com Thu Dec 25 18:32:20 2008 Message-Id: <495417AE.1000708@nj.rr.com> From: Arnold Trachtenberg Subject: toxicity of certain honeys Date: Thu, 25 Dec 2008 18:30:54 -0500 Kevin: See below. There are several references to toxic honeys in the US. The earliest record of which I am aware dates back to Philadelphia in 1790, when a child died from eating honey. There are also references from the Civil War and from the 1940's and 1960's. The most recent report is the one we found here in Virginia. A beekeeper became violently ill after comsuming some honey from his hives and ended up spending 6 days in the local hospital. We were contacted about the possibility of the honey causing the problems and subsequently analyzed the honey. We found two grayanotoxins (primarily nerve toxins that lead to a prolonged depolarization of the nerve) in the honey in sufficient levels to cause very serious medical problems. Based on the time of year, the area in which the honey was made, and the toxins, we believe the source was Kalmia latifolia (Mountain laurel). This type of toxic honey is not common but seems to be reported once about every 20 or 30 years. There are a number of other plants that produce nectars with various toxins. Some of these include Yellow jassamine, tansy ragwort, and Egyptian henbane. If you would like more infromation on plants and specific toxins, please let me know. Hope this answers some of your questions. Rick Fell Rick Fell Professor Department of Entomology Virginia Tech Blacksburg,Virginia 24061 Tel. (540) 231-7207 e-mail: rfell@vt.edu From arnold@nj.rr.com Thu Dec 25 18:33:58 2008 Message-Id: <49541810.7040108@nj.rr.com> From: Arnold Trachtenberg Subject: toxicity of certain honeys Date: Thu, 25 Dec 2008 18:32:32 -0500 Nurhayat Sütlüpmar1, Afife Mat1 and Yurdagül Satganoglu2 (1) Present address: Department of Pharmacognosy, Faculty of Pharmacy, University of Istanbul, 34452 Istanbul, Turkey (2) Kartal Occupational Diseases Hospital, Istanbul, Turkey Received: 19 August 1992 Accepted: 13 October 1992 Abstract One of the food intoxications encountered in Turkey is the case caused by toxic honey made by bees fromRhododendron species.R.luteum andR.ponticum are the two species which grow in the north regions of Turkey. Grayanotoxins, mainly Grayanotoxin I (Andromedotoxin) occurring only in Ericaceae plants, are the compounds responsible for poisoning. In this investigation, the diagnosis and treatment of 11 cases of poisoning admitted to Kartal Occupational Diseases Hospital between 1983 and 1988 are presented. The results of the light microscopic and chemical analysis of toxic honey samples are compared with those of the ordinary honey samples and the extract ofRhododendron leaves. Key words Toxic honey - Poisoning - Rhododendron - Andromedotoxin - Grayanotoxin Part of this study was presented at the 8th Meeting on Vegetable Crude Drugs, Istanbul, 19–21 May 1989 From pasogal@ameritech.net Thu Dec 25 22:01:19 2008 Message-Id: <000001c96706$31d7c9e0$95875da0$@net> From: "Annalee" Subject: (no subject) Date: Thu, 25 Dec 2008 21:01:04 -0600 A quick search under-- toxic honey-- shows an article in Wikipedia which confirms the previous reports, gives references, and notes other honeys that are toxic to humans. From msittner@mcn.org Fri Dec 26 15:23:23 2008 Message-Id: <5.2.0.9.2.20081226105540.0303d240@mail.mcn.org> From: Mary Sue Ittner Subject: Thank you Date: Fri, 26 Dec 2008 12:21:10 -0800 Dear all, About this time every year I make a list of all the things that I am grateful for before the end of the year. There are always a lot of you and things you have done on my list. I'd like to share some of these with you. I apologize for the length of this as over the years a few of you have asked me to write shorter emails, but there is so much to be grateful for in this group that it is difficult to write a brief note. I am grateful for this list and for all who contribute to it with questions and answers. I am grateful that our list is a friendly one and has become a community over time and that people who are expert in the field are willing to help others who may be beginners. Not all the questions get answered, but it often happens that someone takes the time to type an answer, give a resource, look up information and pass it on. I am grateful for all those people who do not include the previous message in their response and therefore make the digest easier to read, for those people who clearly identify the subject in the subject fields, and that I don't get a lot of messages asking me to keep people on topic when they stray. The latter would be a difficult task. I am grateful for all those volunteers who have given of their time to make the Pacific Bulb Society, the pbs list, and the pbs wiki grow and improve. I'd like to mention a few of them who have made big contributions, but please forgive me if I forget anyone as all efforts are appreciated. Dell Sherk has been an awesome BX director. If he ever decides to resign, it will take a team to replace him. We are approaching the 200th BX and if you add in sales, probably have exceeded that number of offerings. Can you imagine all the details that go into packaging and sending out seeds and bulbs that many times? Arnold Trachtenberg has helped with the list and the wiki from the beginning and added photos of his own. He has also been the treasurer of the Pacific Bulb Society and responsible for seeing that the recent newsletters and membership book got printed and mailed. If there is an unsung heroine, it has to be Jennifer Hildebrand. She doesn't post very often so some of you may not be aware of her contributions. She has been secretary and treasurer of the Pacific Bulb Society and is often the one who has offered to help when help was needed. She helped me with the list in early days and helps Marguerite now with the newsletter. She created the pbs logo and was responsible for editing and formatting the membership booklet which was beautifully done with the bonus of a lot of nice photographs. Patti Colville offered to do the membership even though she doesn't have a computer at home. I am grateful that Marguerite English, an early vice president, has returned to editing the newsletter and is getting the newsletters out in a timely fashion. I am grateful to the new officers who are willing to give of their time, Jane McGary, Paul Machado, and Pam Slate. I've had a number of good helpers on this list including those I've mentioned. Susan Hayek helped me for a number of years and Diane Whitehead now is an excellent source of help. She keeps track of messages that come from people who are not members of this list and helps answer their questions when she can or refers them on to someone else. I am grateful for all of you who have contributed to the wiki. I am especially grateful for those people who have taken the time to master how to add to it and who do their own work. Over the years individuals have taken an interest in making some of our wiki pages very special. In the very beginning Mark McDonough who also helped me figure out how to organize the wiki created a whole series of Allium pages. It was the first genus to have multiple pages. Jay Yourch divided up Narcissus into divisions and has show cased all those different cultivars and hybrids he grows in his yard. He and Alani Davis worked hard on the Crinum pages, especially the Crinum hybrids. David Victor took the time to create the tuberous Pelargonium pages. Angelo Porcelli made a page for all the things that grow near where he lives in Apulia. Lee Poulsen created rainfall graphs and links to cold hardiness maps. Giorgio Pozzi took on Arisaema and made many wonderful contributions to those pages as well as to other genera in the Araceae family. Mary Gerristen added pictures she and Ron Parsons had taken of Calochortus species and excellent text too that she as an expert in this genus would be able to provide. Christiaan van Schalkwyk recently improved our South African Oxalis wiki pages. The wiki in the early days got an excellent start from Bill Dijk who grew more different kinds of bulbs than I knew existed at the time. Dennis Szeszko adds images of species from Mexico. In the beginning Jane McGary added a lot of images with very informative text as well. Germán Roitman has contributed many images of South American species and Cameron McMaster of South African species, especially wonderful habitat pictures. Alessandro Marinello has continued to contribute images even though my lack of Italian doesn't allow me to help him very much. He gets added to my list for his persistence. All of those who have helped me with the wiki are high on the list. Mark McDonough mentioned before and Mark Wilcox had super ideas during the time they were on board. Susan Hayek worked on the wiki nearly every day when she was helping and between us we added many great contributions from John Lonsdale. Susan was always there with support and encouragement as well. Jay Yourch has been invaluable with all his help apart from all the wonderful photos of all those things he grows in North Carolina. He has studied the software for our wiki and helped secure us from spammers. He figured out how we could have thumbnails and helped get us in working order after an upgrade in software took us done. Knowing I can count on him for technical help has meant a lot. Diane Foulis has been a great help a number of times doing drudge work. I am especially grateful for new helper Nhu Nguyen. When he has time, he has been putting an incredible amount of time into the wiki. He almost always says he can help when I ask for it. He has almost completed the task about writing about all the families represented on the wiki. I find his knowledge of taxonomy extremely helpful since that is not an easy area for me. Lately he has been adding information and pictures about tropical species, something not very well represented on the wiki. I am also very grateful for all the friendships I've made from this list. Meeting many of you in person has been a joy and I now have many garden memories that came from bulbs or seed that was shared. I am very grateful to ibiblio, http://ibiblio.org/ Ibiblio hosts our wiki and our list because of their belief and support for open source information and education. They host more that 2500 collections from around the world, including our pbs wiki. One of the newest collections they are hosting concerns African Elephants. Finally I am grateful for all of you who have posted your appreciation on the list or to me privately. Jim Waddick deserves special praise not only as the one who conceived the idea of the BX, but because of his ongoing encouragement to many of us who give of our time to this group. For all of you who I have not mentioned by name but who have given of your time and talents, thank you. I look forward to another year with all of you and encourage many of those who of you who have asked to contribute to the wiki, but haven't found time to do so yet to join all those other contributors. Mary Sue pbs list and wiki administrator From msittner@mcn.org Fri Dec 26 18:45:53 2008 Message-Id: <5.2.0.9.2.20081226152703.036d0f78@mail.mcn.org> From: Mary Sue Ittner Subject: Gratitude list correction/Request for thanking ibiblio Date: Fri, 26 Dec 2008 15:45:28 -0800 Hi, I'm embarrassed to say that I did not see when I proof read my note of things I'm grateful for that I had written Diane Foulis instead of Linda. Just because they both live in Canada is no excuse. I'm sorry Linda. Diane Whitehead helps me with the list; Linda Foulis withe the wiki. These are times of increasing budget challenges so it is important that the people who make the choices for how to spend budget money know that ibiblio's support of groups providing information to the world is appreciated. As the ibiblio leader said today in a message to many of us who direct something they host: "We, you and ibiblio, offer granular bits of everything to everybody in the world; that is our strength and your gifts, a combined independently managed set of miscellanies for a loosely connected world." Ibiblio is funded by contributions and from funding from the School of Journalism and Mass Communication and the School of Information and Library Science at the University of North Carolina and from the University itself. It would be wonderful if any of you were so inclined to send a note to any of these people listed below thanking them for providing funding to ibiblio. Jean Folkerts, Dean of Journalism and Mass Communication http://www.jomc.unc.edu/faculty/jean_folkerts.html jean_folkerts@unc.edu Phone: (919) 962-1204 120 Carroll Hall Campus Box 3365 UNC Chapel Hill, NC 27599-3365 Jose-marie Griffiths, Dean of Information and Library Science http://sils.unc.edu/people/resources/jmgriffithsbio.htm jmgriff@unc.edu Phone: (919) 962-8363 103 Manning Hall Campus Box 3360 UNC Chapel Hill, NC 27599-3360 Note: She is stepping down soon, but she has been very supportive. Holden Thorp, Chancellor of UNC - Chapel Hill http://www.unc.edu/chan/ chancellor@unc.edu or holden@unc.edu Phone: (919) 962-1365 103 South Building Campus Box 9100 UNC Chapel Hill, 27599-9100 Mary Sue From dryle@wi-net.com Fri Dec 26 20:12:36 2008 Message-Id: From: "David Ryle" Subject: Honey and Mountain Laurel Date: Fri, 26 Dec 2008 19:12:18 -0600 Hello and Merry Christmas to all, It is not my intention to be a kill joy, yet I feel a need to comment on a couple of things. First, I love mountain laurel, and all its cultivars, the debt we owe to Briggs nurseries for their efforts to bring these wonderful plants to a greater availability, the public, nor the industry for that matter, will in all likelihood never fully appreciate(I'm especially fond of Heart's Desire). And as for honey, regardless of its useage I'm all for it, whether it bee(pardon the pun!) in my tea or mead or fudge for that matter, I have distant memories of Lindisfarne fudge and mead that can still warm the cockles of this immigrant's heart. Regardless, what has any of this to do with bulbs,bulbous species, rhizomatous species, or tuberous species or ANY OTHER PLANT that can be considered in that great family of plants that allows them for whatever reason, to be rightfully considered a geophyte. As far as I'm aware neither Kalmia latifolia or any other members of its genus nor Apis mellifera or any other member of its genus grants them that distinction. However and humbly, I am willing to be corrected.Could we all try to stay on trackwith regards to the subject matter discussed in this group. If my tone offends I apologise, have a happy and safe New Year everyone sincerely David Ryl From jshields@indy.net Sat Dec 27 08:47:12 2008 Message-Id: <5.1.0.14.2.20081227084717.01d0ee70@pop.indy.net> From: "J.E. Shields" Subject: Midwest Clivia Group 2009 Get-together Date: Sat, 27 Dec 2008 08:47:56 -0500 To the folks in Indiana and near-by States: I'm going to start trying to plan for the annual Spring Clivia Gathering for 2009. We have in past years met anytime from mid-March to mid-April. The Clivia bloom in my own greenhouse is usually best around the last weekend in March and the first weekend in April. If we stray from this narrow window, there will be significantly less bloom to enjoy. If you are interested in coming to the Spring 2009 meeting, please let me know soon. I also need to know which of those two weekends you prefer, and whether you prefer Saturday or Sunday for the meeting. My own preference is for late March on Saturday from noon to ca. 4 PM. I need to know your preferences, so we can get as many as possible of the Clivia lovers from the Midwest together at the same time. Contact me at: Regards, Jim Shields This notice will be posted to several lists; I apologize if you get multiple copies of it. ************************************************* Jim Shields USDA Zone 5 Shields Gardens, Ltd. P.O. Box 92 WWW: http://www.shieldsgardens.com/ Westfield, Indiana 46074, USA Tel. ++1-317-867-3344 or toll-free 1-866-449-3344 in USA From LucGBulot@aol.com Sat Dec 27 12:11:28 2008 Message-Id: <8CB365D4015600A-E6C-B1@FWM-D16.sysops.aol.com> From: lucgbulot@aol.com Subject: Season Greetings Date: Sat, 27 Dec 2008 12:11:11 -0500 Dear friends, Merry Christmas and Happy New Year Joyeux Noël et Bonne Année Feliz Navidad y prospero Año Nuevo Schöne Weihnachten und Gutes und erfolgreiches Neues Jahr Luc G. Bulot From LucGBulot@aol.com Sat Dec 27 12:16:16 2008 Message-Id: <8CB365DF0201EC8-E6C-D1@FWM-D16.sysops.aol.com> From: lucgbulot@aol.com Subject: Season Greetings Date: Sat, 27 Dec 2008 12:16:06 -0500 Dear friends, Merry Christmas and Happy New Year Joyeux Noël et Bonne Année Feliz Navidad y prospero Año Nuevo Schöne Weihnachten und Gutes und erfolgreiches Neues Jahr Luc G. Bulot From to.sa@comhem.se Sat Dec 27 13:40:34 2008 Message-Id: <0A9A61D4-03F6-4FA1-84BD-0DF2AB7B4468@comhem.se> From: Tomas Sandberg Subject: Growing indoors in coir Date: Sat, 27 Dec 2008 19:40:30 +0100 Hi all, Anybody of you who has the same experience as me when planting some bulbs in coir (indoors) I have no greenhouse, my problem is that after a while it smells mold in my pots, so now I'm not using coir any more, but maybe this is a indoor related problem and not a problem when using a greenhouse or planting outside. Maybe the coir contents a lot of fungus and a friend to me has real bad experience of coir too! Regards Tomas From adam14113@ameritech.net Sat Dec 27 14:29:12 2008 Message-Id: From: "Adam Fikso" Subject: pbs Digest, Vol 71, Issue 32 Date: Sat, 27 Dec 2008 13:25:47 -0600 Thank you , Mary Sue, for cluing us in to the many and varied operations of PBS that don't always get enough recognition, and for the information about the academic and bureaucratic structural underpinning that helps to make this possible. I certainly didn't know nor could I have guessed how complex, efficiently and delicately interbalanced the operation is; predicated indeed on the continuing goodwill and devotion of all its members. Thanks again for being there-- with us. Adam Fikso. From othonna@gmail.com Sat Dec 27 14:51:24 2008 Message-Id: <8e8da5260812271151q253e40deu2ee3a5d73a0e1920@mail.gmail.com> From: Hannon Subject: Growing indoors in coir Date: Sat, 27 Dec 2008 11:51:23 -0800 Tomas, What kind of bulbs are you growing? I have not had positive experience with coir, but I know a number of very good growers who love it. The problem for me is that it takes too long to dry out-- it stays too wet and soggy, even for plants that like a lot of moisture. I find peat more manageable for anything acid-loving, even considering its problems of unevenness, short life-span, rewetting difficulty, etc. Other options are composts or leaf mould, but these should be of the highest quality; don't use anything with wood pieces in it. In any event I use only a small % of organic component in most of my mixes. The mix is essentially inert: sand and pumice in varying proportion and totaling 3/4 or more of the mix overall. Dylan From jwaddick@kc.rr.com Sat Dec 27 17:40:12 2008 Message-Id: From: James Waddick Subject: Thank you - Mary Sue Date: Sat, 27 Dec 2008 14:23:46 -0600 Dear Mry Sue, You humbly except the prime mover of this list - yourself. Without your dedication, HOURS or work and perseverance, all those great helpers you mention would lack a role model (and a bit of a nag ?). We should all be thankful for your input or all the other pieces would have a more difficult time keeping the whole thing running. Many thanks to all the real workers who keep this list and the parent PBS running. And don't stop now ! Hugs and Happiness to all. Jim W. -- Dr. James W. Waddick 8871 NW Brostrom Rd. Kansas City Missouri 64152-2711 USA Ph. 816-746-1949 Zone 5 Record low -23F Summer 100F + From voltaire@islandnet.com Sat Dec 27 20:51:31 2008 Message-Id: <746EBBE3-097F-4C96-BA1B-82E109C2C414@islandnet.com> From: Diane Whitehead Subject: Thank you - Mary Sue Date: Sat, 27 Dec 2008 17:50:41 -0800 NO, definitely no - she's NEVER a nag. Halo definitely deserved. Diane On 27-Dec-08, at 12:23 PM, James Waddick wrote: > > a role model (and a bit of a nag ?). > From oothal@hotmail.com Sat Dec 27 23:13:13 2008 Message-Id: From: Justin Smith Subject: potting mix question Date: Sat, 27 Dec 2008 22:13:12 -0600 Hiya, The question about coir jolted my brain and made me remember a question I had about potting mix for bulbs. I have a lot of young Glads, Moraea, Babiana etc. that will need to be potted up this next summer in their next dormant period. I know everyone has their favorite potting mix, though my question is one of layers. I was wondering if anyone can tell me if there is any advantage to using the potting mix only in the lower part of the container. Then placing the bulbs on the top of the potting mix and use some small gravel ( or like material ) to cover the bulbs to their appropriate depth. any input with be appreciated justin smith woodville, TX 8b/9a _________________________________________________________________ Send e-mail anywhere. No map, no compass. http://windowslive.com/oneline/hotmail?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_hotmail_acq_anywhere_122008 From jwaddick@kc.rr.com Sat Dec 27 23:55:33 2008 Message-Id: From: James Waddick Subject: Mini-Sinningias Date: Sat, 27 Dec 2008 22:57:50 -0600 Dear Friends, It has been a while since I grew any of these, but I am recommending these to a friend with a new Terrarium. Can anyone suggest a good source and modest price for common cvs? or seeds? Thanks. Jim W. -- Dr. James W. Waddick 8871 NW Brostrom Rd. Kansas City Missouri 64152-2711 USA Ph. 816-746-1949 Zone 5 Record low -23F Summer 100F + From leo@possi.org Sun Dec 28 01:06:50 2008 Message-Id: From: "Leo A. Martin" Subject: Tropaeolum pentaphyllum Date: Sat, 27 Dec 2008 22:06:48 -0800 (PST) Hello All, I obtained the above this spring in the BX. (Thanks, Alberto.) I followed the instructions to plant, refrigerate, pay attention, remove from the fridge, and wait. Nothing sprouted. I put the pot in the shade outside and watered it regularly. I forgot about it but since it was near other things I watered it never dried out. I was moving things two nights ago in preparation for our first frost of the winter and noticed a lot of stringy weeds growing in a pot. The leaf shape looked vaguely familiar... something like the canary creeper. Then I knew what it had to be. Yes, T. pentaphyllum had sprouted. So, if you follow directions and nothing happens, try not following directions. I suspect the seeds were waiting for the proper ambient temperature rather than looking at the calendar. From othonna@gmail.com Sun Dec 28 01:20:31 2008 Message-Id: <8e8da5260812272220j4b4dd65fy7953026f3fde0f7f@mail.gmail.com> From: Hannon Subject: potting mix question Date: Sat, 27 Dec 2008 22:20:30 -0800 Justin, All the horticultural sages I've talked with about this concept say it is a wasted effort in containers. My experience has been the same-- it may not hurt anything but is unnecessary. Maybe in the garden or in raised beds it can be purposeful, but not pots. For the plants you mention I suggest a sandy mix with some drainage material (perlite or, better, pumice) and a small proportion of organic material, all mixed uniformly. Dylan From othonna@gmail.com Sun Dec 28 01:23:27 2008 Message-Id: <8e8da5260812272223g201b8406g536ad37c6d6b303@mail.gmail.com> From: Hannon Subject: Mini-Sinningias Date: Sat, 27 Dec 2008 22:23:26 -0800 Jim, For Sinningia cvs: Lauray of Salisbury, Logee's and Kartuz are all excellent mail order sources for plants. The AGGS (I think they have changed their name/acronym lately) puts out a great seed list for members, including sinningias. Dylan From crobin500@msn.com Sun Dec 28 01:34:42 2008 Message-Id: From: Cynthia Robinson Subject: Mini-Sinningias Date: Sat, 27 Dec 2008 23:34:41 -0700 Hi Jim, You can also try Linda Tamblyn of the Kansas City C&SS (info@recyclededen.com). She specializes in sinningias & begonias for miniature terrariums. Cynthia Robinson (Ex Kansas Citian, now living in Phoenix, AZ)> Date: Sat, 27 Dec 2008 22:57:50 -0600> To: pbs@lists.ibiblio.org> From: jwaddick@kc.rr.com> Subject: [pbs] Mini-Sinningias> > Dear Friends,> It has been a while since I grew any of these, but I am > recommending these to a friend with a new Terrarium.> > Can anyone suggest a good source and modest price for common > cvs? or seeds?> > Thanks. Jim W.> -- > Dr. James W. Waddick> 8871 NW Brostrom Rd.> Kansas City Missouri 64152-2711> USA> Ph. 816-746-1949> Zone 5 Record low -23F> Summer 100F +> > _______________________________________________> pbs mailing list> pbs@lists.ibiblio.org> http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php> http://pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki From brian.whyer@btinternet.com Sun Dec 28 06:16:22 2008 Message-Id: From: "Brian Whyer" Subject: potting mix question Date: Sun, 28 Dec 2008 11:16:23 -0000 > I have a lot of young Glads, Moraea, Babiana etc. that will need to be potted up this > next summer in their next dormant period. I know everyone has their favorite > potting mix, though my question is one of layers. > > I was wondering if anyone can tell me if there is any advantage to using the potting > mix only in the lower part of the container. Then placing the bulbs on the top of the > potting mix and use some small gravel ( or like material ) to cover the bulbs to their > appropriate depth. This technique certainly works for me, here in England, for juno irises, with the thongy roots in compost, but the bulbs, and several inches above course gravel. I can leave a large long-tom pot (height 1.5-2 x diameter) outside in all weathers, all year round, with minimal losses. Something I cannot do if the compost fills the pot, where I would have to use much more effort even under glass, getting the moisture content thoughout the year right to prevent rotting, or desiccation. It can also help to inspect some other types of bulbs during dormancy as you can pour the gravel off and there they are. But with smaller pots you have to remember if the bulbs are planted ~half the depth of the pot, then removing the top half of the compost, leaves less than half (in a tapered pot) the nutrients, and possibly ion exchange material remaining, so you will have to liquid feed much more often. Over potting in a larger than normal pot or standing on an absorbent sand base reservoir may help alleviate this a little though. Brian Whyer, Buckinghamshire, England, +3C max, -3C min today From kevin_ink@mac.com Sun Dec 28 10:47:30 2008 Message-Id: <4A715AF0-46B8-48FB-8C0E-E8B8FA2DCF64@mac.com> From: kevin inkawhich Subject: Mini-Sinningias Date: Sun, 28 Dec 2008 10:46:56 -0500 BELISLES is also an excellent source. I have ordered from them for many years. On Dec 28, 2008, at 1:23 AM, Hannon wrote: > Jim, > > For Sinningia cvs: Lauray of Salisbury, Logee's and Kartuz are all > excellent mail order sources for plants. The AGGS (I think they have > changed their name/acronym lately) puts out a great seed list for > members, including sinningias. > > Dylan > _______________________________________________ > pbs mailing list > pbs@lists.ibiblio.org > http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php > http://pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki From dkramb@badbear.com Sun Dec 28 13:35:21 2008 Message-Id: <4957B904.4020206@badbear.com> From: Dennis Kramb Subject: Tropaeolum pentaphyllum Date: Sun, 28 Dec 2008 12:36:04 -0500 Leo A. Martin wrote: > So, if you follow directions and nothing happens, try not following > directions. This is some of the best advice I've heard! :-) I love it!!!! Dennis in Frozen Ohio From kenandbea@shaw.ca Sun Dec 28 14:01:19 2008 Message-Id: <6C54C893212B4E62A5F353E30F042B85@MOMS> From: "KenandBea" Subject: Tropaeolum pentaphyllum Date: Sun, 28 Dec 2008 11:01:17 -0800 Thanks Leo I just potted up some of these seeds so I will definately pay attention to them for a long time if needed:) Thanks for the tip. Bea ----- Original Message ----- From: "Leo A. Martin" To: Sent: Saturday, December 27, 2008 10:06 PM Subject: [pbs] Tropaeolum pentaphyllum > Hello All, > > I obtained the above this spring in the BX. (Thanks, Alberto.) I followed > the instructions to plant, refrigerate, pay attention, remove from the > fridge, and wait. Nothing sprouted. > > I put the pot in the shade outside and watered it regularly. I forgot > about it but since it was near other things I watered it never dried out. > > I was moving things two nights ago in preparation for our first frost of > the winter and noticed a lot of stringy weeds growing in a pot. The leaf > shape looked vaguely familiar... something like the canary creeper. Then I > knew what it had to be. Yes, T. pentaphyllum had sprouted. > > So, if you follow directions and nothing happens, try not following > directions. I suspect the seeds were waiting for the proper ambient > temperature rather than looking at the calendar. > > _______________________________________________ > pbs mailing list > pbs@lists.ibiblio.org > http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php > http://pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki > > > -- > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG. > Version: 7.5.552 / Virus Database: 270.10.0/1866 - Release Date: > 12/27/2008 8:49 PM > > From perdy@mts.net Sun Dec 28 14:38:46 2008 Message-Id: <7826111F57C24E3CABAD43CEDD82C1E2@DAndersonPC> From: "D Anderson" Subject: Fw: Tropaeolum pentaphyllum Date: Sun, 28 Dec 2008 13:38:49 -0600 Hi, Leo: I had posted a link to the Tropaeloum's that I planted from seeds two years ago. I believe I started them the baggie method and than potted them up. :) Donna in cold Winnipeg, Manitoba ----- Original Message ----- From: D Anderson To: Pacific Bulb Society Sent: Monday, October 13, 2008 1:58 PM Subject: Tropaeolum pentaphyllum Hi, Everyone: Here is a link to my tubers. http://www.flickr.com/photos/83624053@N00/2938399807/ These were grown from seeds two years ago and no blooms. What am I doing wrong? Thanks, Donna in Winnipeg, Manitoba From eagle85@flash.net Sun Dec 28 15:59:43 2008 Message-Id: <4653440D-7031-4A9F-8E75-31C6968B8243@flash.net> From: Douglas Westfall Subject: Hippeastrum (Amaryllid) list Date: Sun, 28 Dec 2008 12:59:28 -0800 To the Hippeastrum collectors out there, I am trying to “assemble” a list of the five most rare, hard to collect, wanted Hippeastrums (Amaryllids) known to the “hippie” world. Your response will be appreciated. Add names if you have others. (The list has “expanded” a little over “5”.) I will suggest a few just to “start the ball rolling”. #1. Worsleya rayneri Brazil (Organ Mts) #2. Paramongaia weberbaueri Peru #3a. H. argentinum (tucumanum) Argentina, Bolivia, Peru #3b. H. parodii Argentina #4. H. bukasovii Puno, eastern Peru #5. H. intiflorum Peruvian Andes #6. H. goianum Brazil #7. H. arboricola (epiphytic) Argentina (#8. H. harrisonii ?not so "rare" as wanted) Uruguay Doug Westfall From jwaddick@kc.rr.com Sun Dec 28 18:20:33 2008 Message-Id: From: James Waddick Subject: Mini-Sinningias Date: Sun, 28 Dec 2008 17:17:23 -0600 >You can also try Linda Tamblyn of the Kansas City C&SS >(info@recyclededen.com). She specializes in sinningias & begonias >for miniature terrariums. > >Cynthia Robinson Dear Cynthis and all, I got a note back from the above and here's her web site to share. www.recyclededen.com Its just a few minutes from where I live. Thanks Cynthis and all for the input. Jim W. -- Dr. James W. Waddick 8871 NW Brostrom Rd. Kansas City Missouri 64152-2711 USA Ph. 816-746-1949 Zone 5 Record low -23F Summer 100F + From eez55@earthlink.net Sun Dec 28 21:54:12 2008 Message-Id: <380-22008121292544218@earthlink.net> From: "Eugene Zielinski" Subject: Hippeastrum (Amaryllid) list Date: Sun, 28 Dec 2008 21:54:04 -0500 Although I don't think it should really be added to the list, I would like to see a form of Chlidanthus fragrans that actually blooms on a regular basis. Gene Eugene Zielinski Augusta, GA USA > [Original Message] > From: Douglas Westfall t> > To: Pacific Bulb Society <> > Date: 12/28/2008 3:59:42 PM > Subject: [pbs] Hippeastrum (Amaryllid) list > > To the Hippeastrum collectors out there, I am trying to “assemble” a > list of the five most rare, hard to collect, wanted Hippeastrums > (Amaryllids) known to the “hippie” world. Your response will be > appreciated. Add names if you have others. > (The list has “expanded” a little over “5”.) > From marie-paule.opdenakker@pandora.be Mon Dec 29 04:50:11 2008 Message-Id: From: "Marie-Paule" Subject: Hippeastrum (Amaryllid) list Date: Mon, 29 Dec 2008 10:50:06 +0100 Hello Eugene, I have also a clidanthus fragrans, but they bloom not for me, I put them in my winter shed, dry, but this is not enough that is not the trigger, I do not know what else I can do so that they will bloom, when I bought them they get flowers in April, after that (3 Years later) they don't anymore.I read that they need poor soil, and I give them very poor soil , nada nothing ,no flowers. They have a wonderful fragrans [pbs] Hippeastrum (Amaryllid) list > Although I don't think it should really be added to the list, I would like > to see a form of Chlidanthus fragrans that actually blooms on a regular From ron_redding@hotmail.com Mon Dec 29 05:16:16 2008 Message-Id: From: Ronald Redding Subject: Hippeastrum (Amaryllid) list Date: Mon, 29 Dec 2008 20:16:05 +1000 Doug I have found hippeastrum specie very hard to come by in Australia and have been gradually collecting them in dribs and drabs so basically I am still after most of them. I have attached my wish list sorry for the doulble ups. Cryptostephanus densiflorus Cryptostephanus merenskyanus Cyrtanthus herrei Eucrosia Hippeastrum species Griffinia Pancratium tenuifolium Pancratium trianthum Pancratium verecundum Phaedranessa carmiolii Phaedranessa cinerea Phaedranessa dubia Phaedranessa glanciflora Phaedranessa schizantha Phaedranessa tunguraguae Phaedranessa viridiflora Priophys alba Priophys infundabalaris Scadoxus cinnabarinus Scadoxus cyrtanthiflorus Scadoxus longifolius Scadoxus multiflorus sp longitubus Stenomesson Paramongaia Kind Regards and Best Wishes Ron Redding Hervey Bay Australia> From: eagle85@flash.net> To: pbs@lists.ibiblio.org> Date: Sun, 28 Dec 2008 12:59:28 -0800> Subject: [pbs] Hippeastrum (Amaryllid) list> > To the Hippeastrum collectors out there, I am trying to “assemble” a > list of the five most rare, hard to collect, wanted Hippeastrums > (Amaryllids) known to the “hippie” world. Your response will be > appreciated. Add names if you have others.> (The list has “expanded” a little over “5”.)> > I will suggest a few just to “start the ball rolling”.> > #1. Worsleya rayneri Brazil (Organ Mts)> #2. Paramongaia weberbaueri Peru> #3a. H. argentinum (tucumanum) Argentina, Bolivia, Peru> #3b. H. parodii Argentina> #4. H. bukasovii Puno, eastern Peru> #5. H. intiflorum Peruvian Andes> #6. H. goianum Brazil> #7. H. arboricola (epiphytic) Argentina> (#8. H. harrisonii ?not so "rare" as wanted) Uruguay> > Doug Westfall> > _______________________________________________> pbs mailing list> pbs@lists.ibiblio.org> http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php> http://pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki _________________________________________________________________ Net yourself a bargain. Find great deals on eBay. http://a.ninemsn.com.au/b.aspx?URL=http%3A%2F%2Frover%2Eebay%2Ecom%2Frover%2F1%2F705%2D10129%2D5668%2D323%2F4%3Fid%3D10&_t=763807330&_r=hotmailTAGLINES&_m=EXT From brian.whyer@btinternet.com Mon Dec 29 05:26:50 2008 Message-Id: <41D68475CBF94CD880CF6B5902AD0348@2CVEVE1> From: "Brian Whyer" Subject: Hippeastrum (Amaryllid) list- Clidanthus Date: Mon, 29 Dec 2008 10:26:48 -0000 > I have also a clidanthus fragrans, but they bloom not for me, I put them in > my winter shed, dry, but this is not enough that is not the trigger, I do > not know what else I can do so that they will bloom, when I bought them > they get flowers in April, after that (3 Years later) they don't anymore.I > read that they need poor soil, and I give them very poor soil , nada nothing > ,no flowers. They have a wonderful fragrance For me this is one of those plants that I see more often trying to bloom in the plastic bag hanging in the Garden Centre, then I ever do in soil. Had it for years but got fed up and threw it away. Brian Whyer, Buckinghamshire, England, +-3C and getting colder. Below average for here. From ds429@comcast.net Mon Dec 29 09:40:38 2008 Message-Id: <000001c969c3$6fff47b0$4ffdd710$@net> From: "Dell Sherk" Subject: Pacific Bulb Society Clearance Sale extended to ALL list members Date: Mon, 29 Dec 2008 09:40:46 -0500 Dear All, The sale on leftover seed from the PBS BX is now open to anyone who reads this message regardless of whether or not they are dues-paying members of the PBS. Choose from the list below. Seed that was harvested one year ago or less is priced at $1.00/pkt, and seed from the 2006 harvest is only $.50 / pkt. All of the seed has been stored in cool, dry conditions to preserve its viability. A small shipping and handling charge will be added on heavy or bulky orders. A bill will be included with your shipment. If you are interested in obtaining some of this seed, please email me at or mail your order to Dell Sherk, 6832 Phillips Mill Rd., New Hope, PA 18938. Orders will be filled on a first come first served basis, and some supplies are limited. You may order up to three packets of any one variety. Please order by the numbers to the left of the species list. Please be sure to include your mailing address. Happy New Year, Dell Sherk, Director, PBS BX 2008 SEED ($1.00/pkt) 1Albuca cf spiralis 2Albuca nelsonii 3Allium obliqua 5Aristea ecklonii 6Arthropodium cirrhatum 7Arum maculatum 8Asclepias curassavica 10Bellevalia romana 20Canna glauca 21Canna sp., dwarf 22Chasmanthe bicolor 23Cypella coelestis 24Cypella herberti 25Cyrtanthus aff o'brienii 26Datura inoxia 28Dierama pendulum 29Dietes grandiflora 30Drancunculus vulgaris 31Dyckia hybs 32Eremerus himalaicus 33Ferraria crispa 34Freesia laxa 37Fritillaria biflora 39Fritillaria pallidiflora 40Fritillaria persica 'Ivory Bells' 41Galtonia viridiflora 42Gelasine elongata (azurea) 43Gladiolus grandiflorus 47Habranthus martinezi 52Herbertia pulchella 53Hippeastrum 'Lemon Lime' x 'Picotee' 54Hippeastrum 'Orange Sovereign' 55Hippeastrum vittatum 56Iris graminea 57Iris laevigata 58Iris magnifica 60Iris tectorum 'Sun Moon Lake' 61Iris 'Wild Survivor' 62Iris wilsonii 63Lilium martagon 64Lilium pumilum 65Lilium regale 68Moraea ochroleuca 69Nectaroscordum siculum 70Onixotis stricta 72Ornithogalum reverchoni 73Ornithogalum sp, yellow 74Ornithogalum sp., yellow & green fl 77Rhodophiala granatiflora 78Romulea citrina 79Romulea grandiscapa 80Rudbeckia maxima 81Salvia patens 82Sisyrinchium californicum 83Sisyrinchium striatum 84Sparaxis hybrids 85Tropaeolum pentaphyllum 86Tulbaghia acutiloba 87Tulbaghia simlerii 88Veltheimia bracteata 89Watsonia coccinea 90Zantedeschia albomaculata 91Zephyranthes atamasco 93Zephyranthes primulina 2006 SEED: ($.50/pkt) (quantities limited) 103Iris foetidissima 'Dart Hill' 105Iris hookeri ex. Newfoundland 106Iris laevigata 'Orizuru' 108Iris sibirica, tall, white 110Iris unguicularis 111Iris versicolor 'Between the Lines' 112Iris versicolor 'Epic Poem' 113Iris versicolor 'Whodunit' From ezeizabotgard@hotmail.com Mon Dec 29 10:09:47 2008 Message-Id: From: Alberto Castillo Subject: Tropaeolum pentaphyllum Date: Mon, 29 Dec 2008 15:09:32 +0000 Hi Leo: As an alternative, why not follow USEFUL instructions??' As a rule, I make a point of adding as mcuh habitat info as possible on any plant I donate for the BX. Yet, I read all sorts of opinions about what one or another would do to a given plant, in this case, Tropaeolum pentaphyllum. This is a huge climber of sutropical origin that grows in moist soils among trees or shrubs over which it climbs to flower in fantastic profusion. Truly spectacular. These instructions of potting, refrigerating, whatever, are new to me. Just sow upon receipt by pressing the seeds in individual pots in agood commerical compost and leave themn alone in a preferably frost free place with no much direct sun. By the summer the tuber will be dormant. If you have room you can plant in the ground your next autumn before it sprouts and there it will stay for the next 40 or more years, provided you can give it "Cape bulb" conditions. But, it is a large plant, it comes from a frost free region, it can take slight frosts with no harm but in an exposed chilly spot the plant will grow slowly and will not flower in the second/third season as would be normal. Finally, they come from a year round rainfall region and the dormant tubers receive some rain in summer. This also implies that it is best to sow the seed without delay although they will of course germinate with the onset of cool weather in autumn. The tubers, so much Dahlia like are extremely fragile hence at first it is safer to sow the seed individually. Best regards and a Happy 2009 for all > Date: Sat, 27 Dec 2008 22:06:48 -0800> From: leo@possi.org> To: pbs@lists.ibiblio.org> Subject: [pbs] Tropaeolum pentaphyllum> > Hello All,> > I obtained the above this spring in the BX. (Thanks, Alberto.) I followed> the instructions to plant, refrigerate, pay attention, remove from the> fridge, and wait. Nothing sprouted.> > I put the pot in the shade outside and watered it regularly. I forgot> about it but since it was near other things I watered it never dried out.> > I was moving things two nights ago in preparation for our first frost of> the winter and noticed a lot of stringy weeds growing in a pot. The leaf> shape looked vaguely familiar... something like the canary creeper. Then I> knew what it had to be. Yes, T. pentaphyllum had sprouted.> > So, if you follow directions and nothing happens, try not following> directions. I suspect the seeds were waiting for the proper ambient> temperature rather than looking at the calendar.> > _______________________________________________> pbs mailing list> pbs@lists.ibiblio.org> http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php> http://pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki _________________________________________________________________ Enterate todas las novedades del mundo del deporte por MSN. http://msn.foxsports.com/fslasc From alessandro.marinohob@alice.it Mon Dec 29 11:48:58 2008 Message-Id: <70D7BAF3EC1840199591FB5735B0C000@microsof9092fb> From: "alessandro.marinello" Subject: Hippeastrum (Amaryllid) list Date: Mon, 29 Dec 2008 17:48:53 +0100 Eugene creed is a problem that we have in many also my Chlidanthus have had a single flower, seems that they are not well in pot, prefers ground Alessandro Marinello Padova Italy ----- Original Message ----- From: "Eugene Zielinski" To: "Pacific Bulb Society" Sent: Monday, December 29, 2008 3:54 AM Subject: Re: [pbs] Hippeastrum (Amaryllid) list > Although I don't think it should really be added to the list, I would like > to see a form of Chlidanthus fragrans that actually blooms on a regular > basis. > > Gene > > Eugene Zielinski > Augusta, GA USA > > >> [Original Message] >> From: Douglas Westfall t> >> To: Pacific Bulb Society <> >> Date: 12/28/2008 3:59:42 PM >> Subject: [pbs] Hippeastrum (Amaryllid) list >> >> To the Hippeastrum collectors out there, I am trying to "assemble" a >> list of the five most rare, hard to collect, wanted Hippeastrums >> (Amaryllids) known to the "hippie" world. Your response will be >> appreciated. Add names if you have others. >> (The list has "expanded" a little over "5".) >> > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > _______________________________________________ > pbs mailing list > pbs@lists.ibiblio.org > http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php > http://pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki From janemcgary@earthlink.net Mon Dec 29 14:02:10 2008 Message-Id: From: Jane McGary Subject: Iris 'Roy Elliott' Date: Mon, 29 Dec 2008 11:01:11 -0800 Tucked in a Christmas card, a friend sent me a print of a remarkable iris she grew from seed from the NARGS Seed Exchange several years ago. She told me it was on the list as "Iris 'Roy Elliott'", no doubt at a time when the seed list didn't use "ex" to indicate the seed parent is a cultivar. I don't have a version of the photo small enough to post on the wiki (I'm not sure whether I could scan it adequately at home) but hope to do so in a couple of weeks. I wonder if any of our iris experts can tell us what sort of iris 'Roy Elliott' is? All I have is a close-up of the flower, which looks to me like a Pacific Coast hybrid. The falls are lemon yellow, stippled with dots and dashes of deep purple, and have no beard or crest. The standards, about 2/3 the length of the falls, are white with similar purple stippling and are ruffled on the margins. The broad style arms are pale yellow with a violet overlay that deepens to the median, and their edges are incurved. The grower tells me it forms a clump with short rhizomes and has rather broad leaves that are shorter than the flowering stems. It's a pretty startling flower, and you can imagine my reaction (naked greed) when she mentioned she has two good clumps of it now. Happy New Year, and the snow is finally melting! Jane McGary From janemcgary@earthlink.net Mon Dec 29 14:35:59 2008 Message-Id: From: Jane McGary Subject: Iris 'Roy Elliott' Date: Mon, 29 Dec 2008 11:35:45 -0800 I did search for Iris 'Roy Elliott', but found little information. It appears on a few lists of species and cultivars without a description, although one list (but not the RHS Plantfinder) identifies it as a selection of I. versicolor. There is a photo of it on the Arrowhead Alpines photo gallery. The plant Terry Laskiewicz grew from its seed appears to be a much improved version, at least florally, because the cultivar 'Roy Elliott' has narrow standards while Terry's flower, similar in color, has broader, spectacularly marked and ruffled segments. I've grown I. versicolor, the typical plant, but did not consider it worth keeping. Probably the free-draining soil here didn't suit it, either. Jane McGary From jwaddick@kc.rr.com Mon Dec 29 14:47:31 2008 Message-Id: From: James Waddick Subject: Iris 'Roy Elliott' Date: Mon, 29 Dec 2008 13:49:45 -0600 Dear Jane, It has been years since I have heard this name, but I grew a plant from (the name escapes me, but an ex board member of the NY Bot Garden) a decade or more ago. It is a 40 chromosome (Sino-) Siberian Iris; a hybrid involving I. bulleyana and something else. I think it originated in Canda or the UK. Like all such 40 chrom siberians it succumbed to our alkaline environment, but I managed to keep it acid for a few years. Very striking. It may not be registered with AIS. best Jim W. PICTURE http://www.arrowheadalpines.com/darkpurple_gallery/index.htm I think it is around, but I couldn't find a source with a quick search. Best Jim W. -- Dr. James W. Waddick 8871 NW Brostrom Rd. Kansas City Missouri 64152-2711 USA Ph. 816-746-1949 Zone 5 Record low -23F Summer 100F + From piabinha@yahoo.com Mon Dec 29 14:56:07 2008 Message-Id: <956620.69636.qm@web51903.mail.re2.yahoo.com> From: piaba Subject: Begonia socotrana Date: Mon, 29 Dec 2008 11:56:06 -0800 (PST) hi,   i'm not even sure if this is a geophyte (i assume it is), but if anyone is growing this plant, please contact me privately.  a friend of mine overseas is looking for it.  thanks. ========= tsuh yang From rarebulbs@suddenlink.net Mon Dec 29 15:28:34 2008 Message-Id: <90D61632DD044310B9ADE5FB8E3C1E83@DJ9SK221> From: "Diana Chapman" Subject: Scented oxalis Date: Mon, 29 Dec 2008 12:25:56 -0800 My Oxalis cathara bloomed for the first time a couple of days ago, and on picking up the pot I noted that it is strongly scented. The flower opens in the afternoon rain or shine and stays open until evening, like O. fragrans (which may be incorrectly named). I have posted on the blog (www.thebulbmaven.typepad.com) on some species I have that have distinct fragrances. Does anyone have any other scented oxalis? Diana www.telosrarebulbs.com www.thebulbmaven.typepad.com From j.grimshaw@virgin.net Mon Dec 29 16:28:16 2008 Message-Id: <005c01c969fc$6940f6b0$0401a8c0@MAINPC> From: "John Grimshaw" Subject: Iris 'Roy Elliott' Date: Mon, 29 Dec 2008 21:28:36 -0000 When I started working for the seed company K. Sahin, Zaden B.V. in The Netherlands in 1999 there was an old trial bed of seedling Iris labelled "ex Roy Elliott" growing on the famous Sahin trial ground. These were a swarm of hybrids apparently derived from I. bulleyana, I. forrestii etc and many were very attractive, in various colours and shades. None was outstanding enough to be worth naming as a clone, however. I never found out if they were seedlings from a clone or were grown from seed derived from Roy Elliott himself. At that time we used to send seed to the rock garden societies' seed exchanges and I recall on several occasions including Iris ex Roy Elliott in our donations, because I thought that there was potential there to raise some interesting seedlings. This is presumably the source of Jane's friend's seedling, which sounds lovely. Nice to know that something good came out of that seed! John Grimshaw Dr. John M. Grimshaw Sycamore Cottage Colesbourne Cheltenham Gloucestershire GL53 9NP ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jane McGary" To: "Pacific Bulb Society" Sent: Monday, December 29, 2008 7:01 PM Subject: [pbs] Iris 'Roy Elliott' > Tucked in a Christmas card, a friend sent me a print of a remarkable > iris she grew from seed from the NARGS Seed Exchange several years > ago. She told me it was on the list as "Iris 'Roy Elliott'", no doubt > at a time when the seed list didn't use "ex" to indicate the seed > parent is a cultivar. From cvschalkwyk@lantic.net Tue Dec 30 03:37:19 2008 Message-Id: <24C4AF804DD64A9FB79A66DADC06EA74@h4l> From: "Christiaan van Schalkwyk" Subject: Scented oxalis Date: Tue, 30 Dec 2008 10:38:20 +0200 Hi I have a white form of O. obtusa which is strongly fragrant, other O. obtusa clones are faintly or not fragrant. O lichenoides and O. dregei are also fragrant. Interresting to note that the three I list, as well as O cathara, and the "O. fragrans", are all white flowering species. Maybe something worthwile to check out if other white flowering species are also fragrant, and if other darker Oxalis shares this trait. Christiaan ----- Original Message ----- From: "Diana Chapman" To: "Pacific Bulb Society" Sent: Monday, December 29, 2008 10:25 PM Subject: [pbs] Scented oxalis > My Oxalis cathara bloomed for the first time a couple of days ago, and on > picking up the pot I noted that it is strongly scented. The flower opens > in > the afternoon rain or shine and stays open until evening, like O. fragrans > (which may be incorrectly named). I have posted on the blog > (www.thebulbmaven.typepad.com) on some species I have that have distinct > fragrances. Does anyone have any other scented oxalis? > > Diana > www.telosrarebulbs.com > www.thebulbmaven.typepad.com > > _______________________________________________ > pbs mailing list > pbs@lists.ibiblio.org > http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php > http://pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki From dg0966@googlemail.com Tue Dec 30 04:12:00 2008 Message-Id: <9822d7370812300111x3c9bcb07k94513919b8d5225f@mail.gmail.com> From: "David Goulding" Subject: First Hello Date: Tue, 30 Dec 2008 09:11:59 +0000 Hello to everyone. I joined the mailing list several weeks ago but have only just got around to introducing myself. I live in the UK, in the North West, county of Cheshire. Winters are very variable, but we rarely get snow. I have had an off and on interest in gardening and growing plants over the years. For the last couple of years I have been reinstating my collection of Fritillairia. Having only around 12 species so far, I have a way to go, there are many, as you all know! I would welcome feedback and advice and I will offer my thoughts as and when needed. Six species of Fritillaria are already sprouting in their pots which gives me an upbeat feeling for the Spring to come! Have a good 2009 everyone, and I hope we can all ride the economic roller coaster and find ourselves remaining positive for what will be, it seems a difficult year for many. With my regards, David Goulding Warrington Cheshire UK From d.avensis@virgin.net Tue Dec 30 05:12:24 2008 Message-Id: <06568729A0204A5AAD7BC90A6B87DFB6@Auricula> From: "David Nicholson" Subject: Iris 'Roy Elliott' Date: Tue, 30 Dec 2008 10:11:25 -0000 Seed of Iris 'Roy Elliott' (and indeed of iris 'Joe Elliott') is available on the current Alpine Garden Society Seed Exchange List. >SNIP> When I started working for the seed company K. Sahin, Zaden B.V. in >The Netherlands in 1999 there was an old trial bed of seedling Iris >labelled "ex Roy Elliott" growing on the famous Sahin trial ground. From tom@evolution-plants.com Tue Dec 30 05:18:14 2008 Message-Id: From: Tom Mitchell Subject: Growing in coir Date: Tue, 30 Dec 2008 10:14:40 +0000 As a novice to growing bulbs (a neo-geophyteophile?) I hesitate to offer anything resembling 'advice'. However, I am propagating plants of all kinds, including many bulbs, on a large scale at the moment and I am conducting an informal experiment comparing coir and peat as growing media. This isn't a scientific experiment with proper controls, merely an attempt to establish anecdotally whether coir is better, worse or about the same as peat as a medium in which to raise healthy plants in plastic pots. The tentative conclusion is that coir is at least as good and in some cases better than peat. It slumps less in the pot over time, it holds water better, without remaining sodden (something to do with air- filled porosity, I'm told) and it is easy to re-wet. Most importantly, the plants are healthy and in some cases appear to have better root growth than in peat. The main potential disadvantage is that micronutrients, especially iron and manganese, become locked up over time unless your water supply has a pH lower than about 6.5. My water supply is alkaline so I acidify it with nitric acid (citric acid also works). Here in the UK peat is a big environmental issue and so there is a marketing advantage to nurseries that use alternatives. I've sourced my coir very carefully from a reliable importer. The quality varies enormously and I'm guessing that the problems that Thomas experienced were related to the batch not the coir itself. Horticultural coir, when properly made, is inert, has a very low nutrient content (except a bit of K) and definitely doesn't promote fungal growth. Incidentally, these days I sow almost all my seeds (except some slow germinators) in pure coir, with great success. I have had negligible problems with damping-off in this medium and find that seedlings are easy to prick out of such a light compost. These are early days for my 'experiment' and I'd love to hear the thoughts of more experienced growers. From brown.mark@wanadoo.fr Tue Dec 30 05:27:47 2008 Message-Id: <8398050.395182.1230632865092.JavaMail.www@wwinf1a24> From: Mark BROWN Subject: Scented oxalis and colour Date: Tue, 30 Dec 2008 11:27:45 +0100 (CET) Hello, I was just wondering if these species of oxalis flower in the evening or at night rather than the daytime. White and very pale yellow folwers are always the most powerfully fragrant.Red ,blue and purple flowers are often lacking in scent. A phenoma due to their pollination by diurnal (day flying) insects or birds etc.and the others by moths or even occasionally bats (nocturnal). dark flowered plants are often of curious scent too as they aften use wasps,flies and beetles for pollination.Although we humans can't see ultraviolet and thus see exactly what an insect sees and what is going on in supposedly white or yellow or any other coloured flowers. Mark > Message du 30/12/08 09:37 > De : "Christiaan van Schalkwyk" > A : "Pacific Bulb Society" > Copie à : > Objet : Re: [pbs] Scented oxalis > > > Hi > > I have a white form of O. obtusa which is strongly fragrant, other O. obtusa > clones are faintly or not fragrant. O lichenoides and O. dregei are also > fragrant. Interresting to note that the three I list, as well as O cathara, > and the "O. fragrans", are all white flowering species. Maybe something > worthwile to check out if other white flowering species are also fragrant, > and if other darker Oxalis shares this trait. > > Christiaan From ezeizabotgard@hotmail.com Tue Dec 30 10:26:47 2008 Message-Id: From: Alberto Castillo Subject: potting mix question Date: Tue, 30 Dec 2008 15:26:45 +0000 Hi: The dynamic of water in motion has been studied long ago. If you use layers of different materials, one on top of the others, water will collect in the transition zone between two layers before moving on down to the next lower layer. This will make a water layer that will greatly impede drainage as part of it will return tothe upper layer by capillarity. Thus, it is far more effective to mix two or more ingredients uniformly (provided they are suitable to improve drainage of the mix) than putting the same ingredients in layers. Ditto, there is a different matter and is the method of filling the lower 1/3 of a pot with a well drained mix and then complete the volume with pure grit, coarse sand, etc. . The bulb, corm, etc. must be planted in the middle of this grit or gravel layer. The active roots will go down into the lower 1/3 for moisture and nutrients. This gives fantastic results for difficult bulbous plants as Zephyra elegans, Cyanella cygnea, Chilean Rhiodophialas, Chlidanthus, Tritonia watermeyeri, the Karoo Babianas and Lachenalias, Ungernias, Junos, Hyeronimiellas, Ismene amancaes and many others and also for non bulbous plants as the mesembs, Oncocyclus and Regelia irises, etc., etc. . Best regards Alberto " I was wondering if anyone can tell me if there is any advantage to using> the potting> > mix only in the lower part of the container. Then placing the bulbs on the> top of the> > potting mix and use some small gravel ( or like material ) to cover the> bulbs to their> > appropriate depth." _________________________________________________________________ ¿Fanático de Hotmail y Messenger? ¡Conocé el resto de Windows Live®! http://www.microsoft.com/windows/windowslive/ From vicm527@verizon.net Tue Dec 30 16:17:05 2008 Message-Id: <495A8FB3.1090505@verizon.net> From: VicM Subject: Growing in coir Date: Tue, 30 Dec 2008 16:16:35 -0500 I am far from an expert, but two years ago I began using coir for most of my new plants. I was having a lot of trouble with bulbs rotting. Peat based composts disintegrate very quickly in my hot and humid weather...and bark is not much better. Grit is not readily available here (crushed sea shells are used as a substitute.) It worked well on my orchids and gesneriads so I decided to try it on the bulbs. I have been very pleased with the results so far. My experience has been the same as Tom. The root growth is excellent... much better than any other medium I have tried. It does not pack and there is good air exchange. It does not get sodden, even with all our summer rain. The only problem I have had so far is moss on some of my large troughs during rainy season. During our dry season the tops of the troughs dry out and the moss dies. I have not had this with pots. I use a slow release fertilizer (with minors) and some epsom salts once or twice a year. We are low on magnesium. I find that mixing perlite or pumice with the coir is even better and I have begun using that on some succulents. The secret to growing with coir is to use a very good grade. It's expensive but worth it as the coir does not have to be replaced as often as peat or bark. I purchase mine from a hydroponic store...even then...I leach it with water several times before using it. Even my South African bulbs seem to like it. This is their first year in it so I will have to see how the mix re-wets next fall. Regards to all. I really enjoy being part of this wonderful group. Lynn Makela Tampa, Florida From lum4inus@yahoo.com Tue Dec 30 17:05:48 2008 Message-Id: <875407.3069.qm@web56602.mail.re3.yahoo.com> From: Marie-Paule Opdenakker Subject: Wishes Date: Tue, 30 Dec 2008 14:05:47 -0800 (PST) Hello to all, We are so many from so many parts of the world--I will send my wishes this way-- May the joy and fulfillment of the season which is upon us be abundant in your life as we each celebrate and/or worship in our own individual way; This time of year means many different things to as many different people--so may you each find the days to come full of your own special joy and meaning whatever that might be!! Best Wishes, Marie-Paule Belgium From leo@possi.org Tue Dec 30 17:20:52 2008 Message-Id: <83e65e2de043dd9ec76a7042209ba719.squirrel@www.possi.org> From: "Leo A. Martin" Subject: Tropaeolum pentaphyllum Date: Tue, 30 Dec 2008 14:20:51 -0800 (PST) Alberto Castillo wrote > Hi Leo: > As an alternative, why not follow USEFUL instructions??' > > These instructions of potting, refrigerating, whatever, are new to me. > Just sow upon receipt by pressing the seeds in individual pots in agood > commerical compost and leave themn alone in a preferably frost free place > with not much direct sun. By the summer the tuber will be dormant. If you > have room you can plant in the ground your next autumn before it sprouts > and there it will stay for the next 40 or more years, provided you can > give it "Cape bulb" conditions. But, it is a large plant, it comes from a > frost free region, it can take slight frosts with no harm but in an > exposed chilly spot the plant will grow slowly and will not flower in the > second/third season as would be normal. > > Finally, they come from a year round rainfall region and the dormant > tubers receive some rain in summer. This also implies that it is best to > sow the seed without delay although they will of course germinate with > the onset of cool weather in autumn. The tubers, so much Dahlia like are > extremely fragile hence at first it is safer to sow the seed > individually. Thank you for the seeds. I can attest your suggestions above work! I can't recall right now where I read to wet-stratify the seeds in the refrigerator. That didn't work. I have room for a large vine. How much cold can it take? In our winters we have occasional night frosts to -3C most years, and rarely to -8C. Days are always well above freezing. The soil never freezes so the tubers would survive. I would plant it under trees so the base and lower stems would be much more protected than the vines. I did put all the seeds into one pot but the soil is very loose. Next summer I will unpot carefully and plant into individual pots for planting out next fall. Leo Martin Phoenix Arizona USA From pameladaz@msn.com Tue Dec 30 17:34:57 2008 Message-Id: From: "Pamela Slate" Subject: Growing in coir Date: Tue, 30 Dec 2008 15:34:51 -0700 Dear Lynn, I, like you, also enjoy the group immensely and have learned so very much due to the scope of knowledge of everyone and their willingness to share. And I want to thank you for your contributions to the BX. I have several of your donations and they are all doing well - Habranthus, Hippeastrums, etc. Their good health attests to your horticultural skill! Best, Pamela Slate Carefree AZ -----Original Message----- From: pbs-bounces@lists.ibiblio.org [mailto:pbs-bounces@lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf Of VicM Sent: Tuesday, December 30, 2008 2:17 PM To: pbs@lists.ibiblio.org Subject: [pbs] Growing in coir I am far from an expert, but two years ago I began using coir for most of my new plants. I was having a lot of trouble with bulbs rotting. Peat based composts disintegrate very quickly in my hot and humid weather...and bark is not much better. Grit is not readily available here (crushed sea shells are used as a substitute.) It worked well on my orchids and gesneriads so I decided to try it on the bulbs. I have been very pleased with the results so far. My experience has been the same as Tom. The root growth is excellent... much better than any other medium I have tried. It does not pack and there is good air exchange. It does not get sodden, even with all our summer rain. The only problem I have had so far is moss on some of my large troughs during rainy season. During our dry season the tops of the troughs dry out and the moss dies. I have not had this with pots. I use a slow release fertilizer (with minors) and some epsom salts once or twice a year. We are low on magnesium. I find that mixing perlite or pumice with the coir is even better and I have begun using that on some succulents. The secret to growing with coir is to use a very good grade. It's expensive but worth it as the coir does not have to be replaced as often as peat or bark. I purchase mine from a hydroponic store...even then...I leach it with water several times before using it. Even my South African bulbs seem to like it. This is their first year in it so I will have to see how the mix re-wets next fall. Regards to all. I really enjoy being part of this wonderful group. Lynn Makela Tampa, Florida _______________________________________________ pbs mailing list pbs@lists.ibiblio.org http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php http://pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com Version: 8.0.176 / Virus Database: 270.10.1/1869 - Release Date: 12/30/2008 12:06 PM From ezeizabotgard@hotmail.com Tue Dec 30 18:56:02 2008 Message-Id: From: Alberto Castillo Subject: Tropaeolum pentaphyllum Date: Tue, 30 Dec 2008 23:56:00 +0000 Hi Leo: "Thank you for the seeds. I can attest your suggestions above work! I can't> recall right now where I read to wet-stratify the seeds in the> refrigerator. That didn't work." Stratification of seeds work for T. polyphyllum, speciosum, etc., those that are dry dormant under snow in winter. > " I have room for a large vine. How much cold can it take? In our winters we> have occasional night frosts to -3C most years, and rarely to -8C. Days> are always well above freezing. The soil never freezes so the tubers would> survive. I would plant it under trees so the base and lower stems would be> much more protected than the vines." There should be no problem with the occasional -8C while the plant is in full growth in winter (pentaphyllum, that is) but it needs a sheltered spot, protected from cold winds. It is a large vine, I think it can grow well with you left permanently in the ground but remember it receives year round rainfall. No hot dry Cape summer for it!> "I did put all the seeds into one pot but the soil is very loose. Next> summer I will unpot carefully and plant into individual pots for planting> out next fall." That sounds quite perfect. And, you can plant the larger tubers in the ground. The stems are very brittle tho. Again, it does not require a dry summer like azureum, brachyceras or tricolor. Regards _________________________________________________________________ ¿Fanático de Hotmail y Messenger? ¡Conocé el resto de Windows Live®! http://www.microsoft.com/windows/windowslive/ From npublici@yahoo.com Tue Dec 30 21:38:38 2008 Message-Id: <311365.48418.qm@web59708.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> From: Del Allegood Subject: Hippeastrum (Amaryllid) list Date: Tue, 30 Dec 2008 18:38:27 -0800 (PST) --- On Mon, 12/29/08, alessandro.marinello wrote: From: alessandro.marinello Subject: Re: [pbs] Hippeastrum (Amaryllid) list To: "Pacific Bulb Society" Date: Monday, December 29, 2008, 4:48 PM Eugene creed is a problem that we have in many also my Chlidanthus have had a single flower, seems that they are not well in pot, prefers ground Alessandro Marinello Padova Italy ----- Original Message ----- From: "Eugene Zielinski" To: "Pacific Bulb Society" Sent: Monday, December 29, 2008 3:54 AM Subject: Re: [pbs] Hippeastrum (Amaryllid) list > Although I don't think it should really be added to the list, I would like > to see a form of Chlidanthus fragrans that actually blooms on a regular > basis. > > Gene > > Eugene Zielinski > Augusta, GA USA > > >> [Original Message] >> From: Douglas Westfall t> >> To: Pacific Bulb Society <> >> Date: 12/28/2008 3:59:42 PM >> Subject: [pbs] Hippeastrum (Amaryllid) list >> >> To the Hippeastrum collectors out there, I am trying to "assemble" a >> list of the five most rare, hard to collect, wanted Hippeastrums >> (Amaryllids) known to the "hippie" world. Your response will be >> appreciated. Add names if you have others. >> (The list has "expanded" a little over "5".) >Where is the list currently published? Del> > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > _______________________________________________ > pbs mailing list > pbs@lists.ibiblio.org > http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php > http://pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki _______________________________________________ pbs mailing list pbs@lists.ibiblio.org http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php http://pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki From npublici@yahoo.com Tue Dec 30 22:25:14 2008 Message-Id: <850632.55729.qm@web59711.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> From: Del Allegood Subject: Pacific Bulb Society Clearance Sale extended to ALL list members Date: Tue, 30 Dec 2008 19:25:01 -0800 (PST) I am interested in 1 pkt ea of  47,55,77,91 and 93.I am Del Allegood Pobox326 Zephyrhills,Fl 33539-0326   I hybridize hippeastrum.As soon as I discover how and the cost I would like to become a member. --- On Mon, 12/29/08, Dell Sherk wrote: From: Dell Sherk Subject: [pbs] Pacific Bulb Society Clearance Sale extended to ALL list members To: "General PBS forum" Date: Monday, December 29, 2008, 2:40 PM Dear All, The sale on leftover seed from the PBS BX is now open to anyone who reads this message regardless of whether or not they are dues-paying members of the PBS. Choose from the list below. Seed that was harvested one year ago or less is priced at $1.00/pkt, and seed from the 2006 harvest is only $.50 / pkt. All of the seed has been stored in cool, dry conditions to preserve its viability. A small shipping and handling charge will be added on heavy or bulky orders. A bill will be included with your shipment. If you are interested in obtaining some of this seed, please email me at or mail your order to Dell Sherk, 6832 Phillips Mill Rd., New Hope, PA 18938. Orders will be filled on a first come first served basis, and some supplies are limited. You may order up to three packets of any one variety. Please order by the numbers to the left of the species list. Please be sure to include your mailing address. Happy New Year, Dell Sherk, Director, PBS BX 2008 SEED ($1.00/pkt) 1Albuca cf spiralis 2Albuca nelsonii 3Allium obliqua 5Aristea ecklonii 6Arthropodium cirrhatum 7Arum maculatum 8Asclepias curassavica 10Bellevalia romana 20Canna glauca 21Canna sp., dwarf 22Chasmanthe bicolor 23Cypella coelestis 24Cypella herberti 25Cyrtanthus aff o'brienii 26Datura inoxia 28Dierama pendulum 29Dietes grandiflora 30Drancunculus vulgaris 31Dyckia hybs 32Eremerus himalaicus 33Ferraria crispa 34Freesia laxa 37Fritillaria biflora 39Fritillaria pallidiflora 40Fritillaria persica 'Ivory Bells' 41Galtonia viridiflora 42Gelasine elongata (azurea) 43Gladiolus grandiflorus 47Habranthus martinezi 52Herbertia pulchella 53Hippeastrum 'Lemon Lime' x 'Picotee' 54Hippeastrum 'Orange Sovereign' 55Hippeastrum vittatum 56Iris graminea 57Iris laevigata 58Iris magnifica 60Iris tectorum 'Sun Moon Lake' 61Iris 'Wild Survivor' 62Iris wilsonii 63Lilium martagon 64Lilium pumilum 65Lilium regale 68Moraea ochroleuca 69Nectaroscordum siculum 70Onixotis stricta 72Ornithogalum reverchoni 73Ornithogalum sp, yellow 74Ornithogalum sp., yellow & green fl 77Rhodophiala granatiflora 78Romulea citrina 79Romulea grandiscapa 80Rudbeckia maxima 81Salvia patens 82Sisyrinchium californicum 83Sisyrinchium striatum 84Sparaxis hybrids 85Tropaeolum pentaphyllum 86Tulbaghia acutiloba 87Tulbaghia simlerii 88Veltheimia bracteata 89Watsonia coccinea 90Zantedeschia albomaculata 91Zephyranthes atamasco 93Zephyranthes primulina 2006 SEED: ($.50/pkt) (quantities limited) 103Iris foetidissima 'Dart Hill' 105Iris hookeri ex. Newfoundland 106Iris laevigata 'Orizuru' 108Iris sibirica, tall, white 110Iris unguicularis 111Iris versicolor 'Between the Lines' 112Iris versicolor 'Epic Poem' 113Iris versicolor 'Whodunit' _______________________________________________ pbs mailing list pbs@lists.ibiblio.org http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php http://pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki From lamonready@hotmail.com Tue Dec 30 22:54:25 2008 Message-Id: From: lamon ready Subject: Pacific Bulb Society Clearance Sale extended to ALL list members Date: Tue, 30 Dec 2008 22:54:24 -0500 Dear All,> If you are interested in obtaining some of this seed, please email me at> or mail your order to Dell Sherk, 6832 Phillips Mill> Rd., New Hope, PA 18938. Orders will be filled on a first come first served> basis, and some supplies are limited. You may order up to three packets of> any one variety. Please order by the numbers to the left of the species> list. Please be sure to include your mailing address.> > Happy New Year,> Dell Sherk, Director, PBS BX> > 2008 SEED ($1.00/pkt)> 1Albuca cf spiralis> 2Albuca nelsonii> 5Aristea ecklonii> 10Bellevalia romana> 20Canna glauca> 21Canna sp., dwarf> 22Chasmanthe bicolor> 23Cypella coelestis> 24Cypella herberti> 25Cyrtanthus aff o'brieni> 28Dierama pendulum> 29Dietes grandiflora> 31Dyckia hybs> 42Gelasine elongata (azurea)> 43Gladiolus grandiflorus> 47Habranthus martinezi> 52Herbertia pulchella> 55Hippeastrum vittatum> 68Moraea ochroleuca> 69Nectaroscordum siculum> 73Ornithogalum sp, yellow> 74Ornithogalum sp., yellow & green fl> 80Rudbeckia maxima> 82Sisyrinchium californicum> 83Sisyrinchium striatum> 85Tropaeolum pentaphyllum> 86Tulbaghia acutiloba> 87Tulbaghia simlerii> 88Veltheimia bracteata> 89Watsonia coccinea> 90Zantedeschia albomaculata> 93Zephyranthes primulina> > _______________________________________________> pbs mailing list> pbs@lists.ibiblio.org> http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php> http://pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki> > > > > _______________________________________________> pbs mailing list> pbs@lists.ibiblio.org> http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php> http://pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki From ds429@comcast.net Wed Dec 31 08:22:25 2008 Message-Id: <004001c96b4a$d98ae440$8ca0acc0$@net> From: "Dell Sherk" Subject: Pacific Bulb Society Clearance Sale extended to ALL list members Date: Wed, 31 Dec 2008 08:22:37 -0500 -----Original Message----- From: pbs-bounces@lists.ibiblio.org [mailto:pbs-bounces@lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf Of Del Allegood Sent: Tuesday, December 30, 2008 10:25 PM To: Pacific Bulb Society Subject: Re: [pbs] Pacific Bulb Society Clearance Sale extended to ALL list members I am interested in 1 pkt ea of  47,55,77,91 and 93.I am Del Allegood Pobox326 Zephyrhills,Fl 33539-0326   I hybridize hippeastrum.As soon as I discover how and the cost I would like to become a member. To join, go to our website www.pacificbulbsociety.org and find the link at the bottom of the page to print out a membership form. Dell From to.sa@comhem.se Wed Dec 31 13:48:28 2008 Message-Id: From: Tomas Sandberg Subject: Planting in Coir Date: Wed, 31 Dec 2008 19:48:25 +0100 Hello all, I have planted some of my Griffinias (G.liboniana) in pure spagnhum moss and they grow extremely well in this material indoors, I checked the roots a while ago and they were in exellent condition. My other Griffinias are planted in spagnhum moss mixed with perlite, a special soil, and South American lava and moss and they grow very well too. No coir at all I'm going to throw it away and never use it again, but as I wrote earlier It might differ if it's used outside and not indoors? Happy new year to all of you! Tomas From voltaire@islandnet.com Wed Dec 31 14:44:23 2008 Message-Id: From: Diane Whitehead Subject: fast germinators Date: Wed, 31 Dec 2008 11:43:34 -0800 Seeds that are eager to sprout are such a boost to the spirit in midwinter. Today these seeds, from the Alpine Garden Society, sown in mid- December, germinated: Agapanthus, Dierama, Gladiolus and three species of Arisaema. Last year some Colchicum seeds germinated that I had sown 8 years previously. That event did not engender as much joy as the fast ones today have. Actually, no joy. Just a feeling of: Well! It's about time!! An enthusiasm for life is contagious. Diane Whitehead Victoria, British Columbia, Canada maritime zone 8, cool Mediterranean climate mild rainy winters, mild dry summers From idavide@sbcglobal.net Wed Dec 31 22:33:49 2008 Message-Id: <692207.72529.qm@web81002.mail.mud.yahoo.com> From: David Ehrlich Subject: South American Amaryllid list Date: Wed, 31 Dec 2008 19:33:48 -0800 (PST) Doug,   I don’t know what you’re creating the list for; hopefully it’s an attempt to get seeds or bulbs of these plants for the BX.  I see Paramongaia weberbauerion your list, so let me suggest you also include Leptochitonhelianthus.   DavidEhrlich