----- Original Message ----- From: <pbs-request@lists.ibiblio.org> To: <pbs@lists.ibiblio.org> Sent: Tuesday, March 18, 2008 4:48 PM Subject: pbs Digest, Vol 62, Issue 24 > Send pbs mailing list submissions to > pbs@lists.ibiblio.org > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > pbs-request@lists.ibiblio.org > > You can reach the person managing the list at > pbs-owner@lists.ibiblio.org > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > than "Re: Contents of pbs digest..." > > > List-Post:<mailto:pbs@lists.ibiblio.org> > List-Archive:<http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/pbslist/> > > Today's Topics: > > 1. Re: Gladiolus books (Diane Whitehead) > 2. Re : Gladiolus books (lucgbulot@aol.com) > 3. Wiki Additions-Narcissus and Whiteheadia, Colored Logo > (Mary Sue Ittner) > 4. Re: Gladiolus books (Dell Sherk) > 5. Re: Wiki Additions-Narcissus and Whiteheadia, Colored Logo > (Diane Whitehead) > 6. Re: Eranthis hyemails 'Guinea Gold' (totototo@telus.net) > 7. Re: Eranthis hyemails 'Guinea Gold' (Jim McKenney) > 8. Re: Eranthis hyemalis Tubergenii Group 'Guinea Gold' > (David Victor) > 9. Merendera sobolifera (Jim McKenney) > 10. Re: Eranthis hyemails 'Guinea Gold' (Paul T.) > 11. Re: Eranthis hyemalis Tubergenii Group 'Guinea Gold' > (Jim McKenney) > 12. Re: Eranthis hyemalis Tubergenii Group 'Guinea Gold' > (Jim McKenney) > 13. Re: Eranthis hyemalis Tubergenii Group 'Guinea Gold' (Paul T.) > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Message: 1 > Date: Tue, 18 Mar 2008 10:23:15 -0700 > From: Diane Whitehead <voltaire@islandnet.com> > Subject: Re: [pbs] Gladiolus books > To: Pacific Bulb Society <pbs@lists.ibiblio.org> > Message-ID: <4830438C-427A-4300-9FF3-3D0E73E42D11@islandnet.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes > > Powells in Portland Oregon has 1 copy left of Gladiolus in Tropical > Africa for $17.95 > > http://www.powells.com/biblio/1-9780881923339-2/ > > > Diane > >> > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 2 > Date: Tue, 18 Mar 2008 13:49:30 -0400 > From: lucgbulot@aol.com > Subject: [pbs] Re : Gladiolus books > To: pbs@lists.ibiblio.org > Message-ID: <8CA57378D7AE3EA-148C-3D9@WEBMAIL-MB05.sysops.aol.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > > Hi Dell, > > I just had a look at abebooks.com... 30 copies (new and second hand) are > avalaible from various book sellers - price ranging from $ 12 to 45... > Even out of print (I believe), this book is easy to find... > > Luc > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 3 > Date: Tue, 18 Mar 2008 11:11:19 -0700 > From: Mary Sue Ittner <msittner@mcn.org> > Subject: [pbs] Wiki Additions-Narcissus and Whiteheadia, Colored Logo > To: pbs@lists.ibiblio.org > Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.2.20080318104538.015d9c58@mail.mcn.org> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed > > New Narcissus from Jay Yourch: > 'Toby the First' and a group picture of 'Wisley' > http://pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki/index.php/… > 'Puppet' > http://pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki/index.php/… > 'Trepolo' > http://pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki/index.php/… > 'Mount Hood' > http://pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki/index.php/… > group shot of 'Chromacolor' > http://pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki/index.php/… > 'Pappy George' and 'Sweetness' > http://pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki/index.php/… > 'Toto' > http://pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki/index.php/… > > Additional pictures of Whiteheadia growing in the rocks in Namaqualand, > September 2006. We weren't traveling with Diane and Don, but we were there > at the same time and don't know if the plants we found in the rocks were > the same plants they found in the same rocks. These were the only ones we > saw in our three days in Namaqualand and maybe the found the same ones. > http://pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki/index.php/… > > Also Jennifer Hildebrand has added color to the wiki logo. If you can't > see > this, you may need to refresh or reload the page. I have found in Mozilla > Firefox that can have fleeting results with the new image replaced with > the > old image at a later date. It seems to be tenacious about holding on to > the > past. Thanks Jen for this attractive improvement. > > Mary Sue > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 4 > Date: Tue, 18 Mar 2008 14:34:15 -0400 > From: "Dell Sherk" <dells@voicenet.com> > Subject: Re: [pbs] Gladiolus books > To: "'Pacific Bulb Society'" <pbs@lists.ibiblio.org> > Message-ID: <20080318183505.714094C011@lists.ibiblio.org> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > > Thanks, Diane, for the tip. It looks like some inconsiderate person has > snatched it up already. :<0 > > Dell > > -----Original Message----- > From: pbs-bounces@lists.ibiblio.org [mailto:pbs-bounces@lists.ibiblio.org] > On Behalf Of Diane Whitehead > Sent: Tuesday, March 18, 2008 1:23 PM > To: Pacific Bulb Society > Subject: Re: [pbs] Gladiolus books > > Powells in Portland Oregon has 1 copy left of Gladiolus in Tropical > Africa for $17.95 > > http://www.powells.com/biblio/1-9780881923339-2/ > > > Diane > >> > _______________________________________________ > pbs mailing list > pbs@lists.ibiblio.org > http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php > http://pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki/ > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 5 > Date: Tue, 18 Mar 2008 11:43:35 -0700 > From: Diane Whitehead <voltaire@islandnet.com> > Subject: Re: [pbs] Wiki Additions-Narcissus and Whiteheadia, Colored > Logo > To: Pacific Bulb Society <pbs@lists.ibiblio.org> > Message-ID: <8B04BF09-33C5-4A46-8D90-6DC80D23B414@islandnet.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes > > I got "tuned in" to Whiteheadia, so I found it in quite a few places. > No exciting variants, though. > > Diane Whitehead > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 6 > Date: Tue, 18 Mar 2008 12:12:18 -0700 > From: totototo@telus.net > Subject: Re: [pbs] Eranthis hyemails 'Guinea Gold' > To: Pacific Bulb Society <pbs@lists.ibiblio.org> > Message-ID: <20080318191129.81NJVBHCQB@priv-edmwaa05.telusplanet.net> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 > > On 18 Mar 08, at 11:59, Jim McKenney wrote: > >> There are those who regard nomenclatural matters as mattes of right >> and wrong: in their view, there is only one right way to do things. I >> don?t look at it that way at all. > > Oh, come now, what's a little bolshevism between friends? > >> I?ve been thinking a lot about winter aconites lately, and these >> seemingly simple little flowers offer some examples of just how >> opinion comes to influence nomenclature. >> >> In the heading for this post I?ve deliberately used the provocative, >> benignly provocative I hope, combination Eranthis hyemalis ?Guinea >> Gold?. >> >> Those of you who know your winter aconites know that ?Guinea Gold? was >> raised in the early twentieth century and presented to the gardening >> public as a hybrid between what were then known as Eranthis hyemalis >> and E. cilicica. I believe it was Bowles who coined the name >> tubergenii for the hybrid group. Until recently, the usual citation of >> the name would have been Eranthis x tubergenii ?Guinea Gold?. > > Janis Ruksans, in his book "Buried Treasure", mentions this plant as > one he's received from many sources and doesn't think he's ever > gotten the "real thing." I have a patch labelled "Eranthis ? > tubergenii" that originated at Gothenberg and, afaik, doesn't pretend > to be 'Guinea Gold'. Its flowers are rather small, but a deep > saturated yellow, with darkish foliage, just as Ruksans describes. > > Since both specific names are validly published, names for this plant > are valid whether they presume one species or two. > > >> Some modern botanists regard Eranthis hyemalis and E. cilicica as >> conspecific. In that view, ?Guinea Gold? is not a hybrid ? at any >> rate, not an interspecific hybrid. That allows it to be cited as >> Eranthis hyemalis ?Guinea Gold?: both parents of this cultivar are of >> the species Eranthis hyemalis. >> >> There is another formula one encounters: Eranthis hyemalis Tubergenii >> Group ?Guinea Gold?. I?m not sure what to make of this combination: I >> assume it is tacit recognition of the existence of more than one >> ?Guinea Gold?. In this view, if I?ve got it right, although the >> original ?Guinea Gold? was a clone, this combination of names >> recognizes that not only does more than one plant now go around under >> the name ?Guinea Gold?, but also that the true, original plant is >> seemingly lost in the crowd. > > What that fancy names means is "a particular clone called Guinea > Gold, which is a one of a flock of similar looking plants, the > Tubergenii Group, that can be distinguished from run of the mill > Eranthis hyemalis. Got it? > > >> Some people throw up their hands in the face of such complexities. I >> relish them as a way of attaining more finely nuanced expressions of >> the relationships involved. Is one right and the others wrong? I >> don?t think so. Like everything else in science, the scientific basis >> of nomenclature is an if?then proposition. If you believe that >> Eranthis hyemalis and E. cilicica are discrete species, you write >> Eranthis x tubergenii ?Guinea Gold?. >> >> If you believe E. hyemails and E. cilicica are conspecific, you write >> Eranthis hyemalis ?Guinea Gold?. >> >> If you believe the plants going around under the name ?Guinea Gold? >> cannot with certainty be attributed to the original clone, then you >> write Eranthis Tubergenii Group ?Guinea Gold? or even Eranthis >> hyemalis Tubergenii Group ?Guinea Gold?. > > Or Eranthis ? tubergenii. > >> But is one of these right and the others wrong? Get out the boxing >> gloves! > > They're all correct. Remember that taxonomy is largely a science of > opinion, not hard facts, so the only measure of validity is whether > the publication of a name met the technical rules such as Latin > description, etc. > > My best guess is that the cross has been made more than once and the > original 'Guinea Gold' is long lost track of in a crowd of > lookalikes. It probably still exists in some gardens, as eranthis > seem to be pretty permanent plants, but who knows? > > > > > -- > Rodger Whitlock > Victoria, British Columbia, Canada > Maritime Zone 8, a cool Mediterranean climate > > on beautiful Vancouver Island > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 7 > Date: Tue, 18 Mar 2008 15:41:59 -0400 > From: "Jim McKenney" <jimmckenney@jimmckenney.com> > Subject: Re: [pbs] Eranthis hyemails 'Guinea Gold' > To: "'Pacific Bulb Society'" <pbs@lists.ibiblio.org> > Message-ID: <001a01c88930$22f9a240$2f01a8c0@Library> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > > I think I follow you, Roger. > > If so, then to indicate that scenario where all the claimants to the name > Guinea Gold are grouped, should we write Eranthis hyemalis Tubergenii > Group > Guinea Gold Group? > Eranthis hyemalis Guinea Gold Group? > Eranthis Guinea Gold Group? > > Is there a better way? > > Jim McKenney > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 8 > Date: Tue, 18 Mar 2008 19:45:27 +0000 > From: David Victor <davidxvictor@btinternet.com> > Subject: Re: [pbs] Eranthis hyemalis Tubergenii Group 'Guinea Gold' > To: pbs@lists.ibiblio.org > Message-ID: <20080318194540.B6A9B4C02A@lists.ibiblio.org> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed > > Hi Jim, > > You raised a question about the term Tubergenii Group. Its a > cultivar group name i.e. a superset of cultivars which contains the > cultivar 'Guinea Gold'. Someone somewhere has published the name > Tubergenii Group, together with a description of the range of > cultivars that it includes. The rules are laid down in the Cultivated > Code. > > The aim with such a grouping is to pull together plants that have a > horticultural relationship which are within a Denomination Class (as > laid down by the Cultivated Code, which is normally a genus), but > which otherwise may not be a very close botanical relationship. For > example, it could be a group of variegated plants or a group of early > flowering varieties. However, the groups that are normally chosen > are close and are often a group of interspecific hybrids. > > An appropriate example taken from the Code might be in Iris, the > Dutch Group, which includes the complex of early flowering cultivars > arising mainly from I. tingitana, I. xiphium var. lusitanica and I > xiphium var. praecox. > > Incidentally, one useful feature of such Groups for horticultural > purposes is that a particular cultivar can be in more than one group, > depending on the need of the author. > > Best regards, > David Victor > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 9 > Date: Tue, 18 Mar 2008 13:05:23 -0700 (PDT) > From: Jim McKenney <jamesamckenney@verizon.net> > Subject: [pbs] Merendera sobolifera > To: Pacific Bulb Society <pbs@lists.ibiblio.org> > Message-ID: <247132.20871.qm@web84312.mail.re1.yahoo.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 > > I mentioned Merendera sobolifera and its peculiar floral construction in > several recent posts. I?ve added three images of Merendera sobolifera to > the wiki this afternoon. These show the unusual corm, the peculiar, > tenuous, elongated tepals and the ?hooks? which hold the tepals together > at the waist (arcane botanical term) of the flower. > > Take a look at: > > http://pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki/index.php/… > > Enjoy! > > Jim McKenney > jimmckenney@jimmckenney.com > Montgomery County, Maryland, USA, 39.03871? North, 77.09829? West, USDA > zone 7 > My Virtual Maryland Garden http://www.jimmckenney.com/ > BLOG! http://mcwort.blogspot.com/ > > Webmaster Potomac Valley Chapter, NARGS > Editor PVC Bulletin http://www.pvcnargs.org/ > > Webmaster Potomac Lily Society http://www.potomaclilysociety.org/ > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 10 > Date: Wed, 19 Mar 2008 07:54:33 +1100 > From: "Paul T." <ptyerman@ozemail.com.au> > Subject: Re: [pbs] Eranthis hyemails 'Guinea Gold' > To: Pacific Bulb Society <pbs@lists.ibiblio.org> > Message-ID: <69naj8$73npi9@outbound.icp-qv1-irony-out3.iinet.net.au> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed > > >> >>If so, then to indicate that scenario where all the claimants to the name >>Guinea Gold are grouped, should we write Eranthis hyemalis Tubergenii >>Group >>Guinea Gold Group? >>Eranthis hyemalis Guinea Gold Group? >>Eranthis Guinea Gold Group? > > Jim, > > Does the "aff" tag fit here? Never quite sure how it is > applied. Always think of it as meaning "related to" or "possibly" > when I see it in naming. Could Eranthis aff. 'Guinea Gold' be > applied in this case? > > Are many of the 'Guina Gold' that are about coming from seedlings > from the original? Given it is a hybrid between species (or not, > depending on whether they're all hyemalis <grin>) then I would assume > you'd throw back to both sides, which would give you a whole range of > different flowers under the one name etc? > > Cheers. > > Paul T. > Canberra, Australia - USDA Zone Equivalent approx. 8/9 > > Growing an eclectic collection of plants from all over the world > including Aroids, Crocus, Cyclamen, Erythroniums, Fritillarias, > Galanthus, Irises, Trilliums (to name but a few) and just about > anything else that doesn't move!! > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 11 > Date: Tue, 18 Mar 2008 17:35:15 -0400 > From: "Jim McKenney" <jimmckenney@jimmckenney.com> > Subject: Re: [pbs] Eranthis hyemalis Tubergenii Group 'Guinea Gold' > To: "'Pacific Bulb Society'" <pbs@lists.ibiblio.org> > Message-ID: <001b01c8893f$f56aeef0$2f01a8c0@Library> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > > Thanks, David and Paul. > > David, you sort of touched on the aspect of the capital G Group concept > which appeals to me so greatly, and which makes it such a useful tool when > sorting out plants without pedigrees: while it's axiomatic that the > categories of formal botany not be polyphyletic, the elements which make > up > a capital G Group may be polyphyletic. > > Has no subset (i.e. capital G Group) of Tubergenii Group been named for > the > group of cultivars which are candidates for consideration as 'Guinea > Gold'? > > The plants which make up Tubergenii Group as I know it range widely in > characters. Many are not particularly desirable as garden plants. > > But every once and a while one runs across a plant which has the sort of > characteristics which make an exceptional garden plant and seems to answer > to one's preconceived notion of what 'Guinea Gold' should be. These have > presumably been the source of the "false Guinea Golds" said to be making > the > rounds. > > When the question before us is "which is the true 'Guinea Gold', that > subset > is the one we need to focus on. > > Paul mentioned the despicable practice (no bad reflection meant on you, > Paul) of using the abbreviation aff. in naming plants. Aff. is neo-Latin > for > "beats me, I guess it's [fill in the blank]" Since all living things are > presumably related at one level or another, every living thing is "aff" > every other living thing to some degree. And so this aff. business doesn't > tell us much. We gardeners are by and large optimistic sorts. Does hope > bloom anywhere else so eternally as it does among gardeners? > > To answer your other question, Paul, I think I've read that the original > 'Guinea Gold' is/was "sterile". I'll repeat my usual caveat here: claims > of > sterility in the older literature have to be taken with caution. Often the > "sterility" in question is the result of a triploid condition in a > population which is otherwise diploid. Such triploids often give abundant > viable seed when pollinated by tetraploids. > > > Jim McKenney > jimmckenney@jimmckenney.com > Montgomery County, Maryland, USA, 39.03871? North, 77.09829? West, USDA > zone > 7 > My Virtual Maryland Garden http://www.jimmckenney.com/ > BLOG! http://mcwort.blogspot.com/ > > Webmaster Potomac Valley Chapter, NARGS > Editor PVC Bulletin http://www.pvcnargs.org/ > > Webmaster Potomac Lily Society http://www.potomaclilysociety.org/ > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 12 > Date: Tue, 18 Mar 2008 17:45:17 -0400 > From: "Jim McKenney" <jimmckenney@jimmckenney.com> > Subject: Re: [pbs] Eranthis hyemalis Tubergenii Group 'Guinea Gold' > To: "'Pacific Bulb Society'" <pbs@lists.ibiblio.org> > Message-ID: <001c01c88941$5c039f80$2f01a8c0@Library> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > > I noticed that David (thank you) unobtrusively corrected the typo in the > subject line of my original post for this thread. > > Aside from the embarrassment, there is a practical aspect to this that's > on > my mind. > > If we correct typos in the subject line, will the messages with the > correction link with the ones with the typo for search purposes? > > Jim McKenney > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 13 > Date: Wed, 19 Mar 2008 08:47:43 +1100 > From: "Paul T." <ptyerman@ozemail.com.au> > Subject: Re: [pbs] Eranthis hyemalis Tubergenii Group 'Guinea Gold' > To: Pacific Bulb Society <pbs@lists.ibiblio.org> > Message-ID: <6eq1ke$5p6r1o@outbound.icp-qv1-irony-out4.iinet.net.au> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed > > >> >>To answer your other question, Paul, I think I've read that the original >>'Guinea Gold' is/was "sterile". I'll repeat my usual caveat here: claims >>of >>sterility in the older literature have to be taken with caution. Often the >>"sterility" in question is the result of a triploid condition in a >>population which is otherwise diploid. Such triploids often give abundant >>viable seed when pollinated by tetraploids. > > Or, of course, they were sterile in those conditions, but taken into > other conditions they were no longer sterile. I often here talk of > particular things which are sterile in such-and-such a country, but > here in Aus (or vice versa) they produce seed. Sometimes a change in > environment can beat that sterility, and all it takes is one beating > of that sterility to start producing those seedlings that muddy the > waters as to the name being a clone or a group. And that is leaving > aside the just plain "wrong thing under wrong name" problem that > brings named clones uniqueness undone. <grin> > > Cheers. > > Paul T. > Canberra, Australia - USDA Zone Equivalent approx. 8/9 > > Growing an eclectic collection of plants from all over the world > including Aroids, Crocus, Cyclamen, Erythroniums, Fritillarias, > Galanthus, Irises, Trilliums (to name but a few) and just about > anything else that doesn't move!! > > > > ------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > pbs mailing list > pbs@lists.ibiblio.org > http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php > > > End of pbs Digest, Vol 62, Issue 24 > ***********************************