Hello, "Miner" is from Michael Vassar and was introduced through the Huntington BG list (HBG 73608) in 2004. I am sure it was offered somewhere before that though, because it is becoming fairly widespread now. It is supposed to a dwarf form with different maculation on the leaves, more silver overall. "Gila Monster" is also sold under, lutea, pauciflora, giant socialis, etc. I grow this from a friend and it seems to go into dormancy more so than socialis. It is also larger in all respects. Seems distinct enough that it could be a closely related species. I have a wild collected form of socialis (with provenance), that sets masses of seed, and thus seedlings, that was collected in South Africa a few years ago. If you, or anyone, are interested in trading I have a collection of many, many Ledebouria. All the best, Aaron Floden Knoxville, TN --- On Tue, 11/4/08, dave s <email@example.com> wrote: From: dave s <firstname.lastname@example.org> Subject: [pbs] Ledebouria guru needed To: email@example.com Date: Tuesday, November 4, 2008, 3:01 AM I'm amassing a collection of different clones of L. socialis. I was curious to know if anyone knew of material with data here in the 'States. Another question - what IS the origin of L. socialis "miner" - is it a hybrid, or merely a cultivar. Is it simply a locality-specific form of this varaible species? Finally, what IS L. socialis "Gila Monster? I get a hybrid vibe from it, but...? Thanks, Dave S.