From ds429@comcast.net Thu Jan 1 13:53:44 2009 Message-Id: <000a01c96c42$46dba190$d492e4b0$@net> From: "Dell Sherk" Subject: Pacific Bulb Society Clearance Sale extended to ALL list members--Second notice Date: Thu, 1 Jan 2009 13:53:46 -0500 Here is a reminder notice with an updated list of available seeds: Dear All, The sale on leftover seed from the PBS BX is now open to anyone who reads this message regardless of whether or not they are dues-paying members of the PBS. Choose from the list below. Seed that was harvested one year ago or less is priced at $1.00/pkt, and seed from the 2006 harvest is only $.50 / pkt. All of the seed has been stored in cool, dry conditions to preserve its viability. A small shipping and handling charge will be added on heavy or bulky orders. A bill will be included with your shipment. If you are interested in obtaining some of this seed, please email me at or mail your order to Dell Sherk, 6832 Phillips Mill Rd., New Hope, PA 18938. Orders will be filled on a first come first served basis, and some supplies are limited. You may order up to three packets of any one variety. Please order by the numbers to the left of the species list. Please be sure to include your mailing address. Happy New Year, Dell Sherk, Director, PBS BX 2008 SEED ($1.00/pkt) 1Albuca cf spiralis 2Albuca nelsonii 3Allium obliqua 5Aristea ecklonii 6Arthropodium cirrhatum 7Arum maculatum 8Asclepias curassavica 10Bellevalia romana 20Canna glauca 21Canna sp., dwarf 22Chasmanthe bicolor 23Cypella coelestis 26Datura inoxia 28Dierama pendulum 29Dietes grandiflora 30Drancunculus vulgaris 31Dyckia hybs 32Eremerus himalaicus 33Ferraria crispa 37Fritillaria biflora 39Fritillaria pallidiflora 40Fritillaria persica 'Ivory Bells' 41Galtonia viridiflora 42Gelasine elongata (azurea) 43Gladiolus grandiflorus 47Habranthus martinezi 57Iris laevigata 60Iris tectorum 'Sun Moon Lake' 61Iris 'Wild Survivor' 63Lilium martagon 64Lilium pumilum 65Lilium regale 68Moraea ochroleuca 69Nectaroscordum siculum 70Onixotis stricta 72Ornithogalum reverchoni 73Ornithogalum sp, yellow 74Ornithogalum sp., yellow & green fl 77Rhodophiala granatiflora 78Romulea citrina 79Romulea grandiscapa 80Rudbeckia maxima 82Sisyrinchium californicum 83Sisyrinchium striatum 84Sparaxis hybrids 85Tropaeolum pentaphyllum 87Tulbaghia simlerii 89Watsonia coccinea 91Zephyranthes atamasco 93Zephyranthes primulina 2006 SEED: ($.50/pkt) (quantities limited) 103Iris foetidissima 'Dart Hill' 105Iris hookeri ex. Newfoundland 108Iris sibirica, tall, white 113Iris versicolor 'Whodunit' From SRS0=Z7IOl+=5F=johnlonsdale.net=john@eigbox.net Thu Jan 1 15:02:43 2009 Message-Id: <0FF97EE22F2E4A72B47C609918C0C208@XPS400> From: "John T Lonsdale" Subject: Update to Edgewood Gardens Web Site Date: Thu, 1 Jan 2009 15:02:38 -0500 Happy New Year! 2008 seems to have come and gone in a flash, and I guess 2007 did the same; I haven't added any new images to the Edgewood Gardens web site for nearly 2 years. I haven't taken that many either, but have just finished processing those I did keep, and have uploaded them to the site; I've added about 850 new photos and also removed quite a few that have been superseded. Plants can be seen at http://www.edgewoodgardens.net/Plants_album/index.html and general garden views are at http://www.edgewoodgardens.net/Garden_album/index.html. You can choose to view just the updated images, or find them amongst all the others, arranged by family or season. The pictures I've added include a lot of trilliums, particularly the newly described T. oostingii, and also a possibly to be described 'T. lanceolatum'. I recorded a first meaningful flowering here of Dracunculus vulgaris, with its evil scent (it flowered last year but my wife watched the flower be destroyed by an angry bird of prey), and a true first flowering from seed of Fritillaria striata, with its delightful scent. I also captured a praying mantis's strike on an unsuspecting butterfly, and a minute later, a wasp's attack on a spider crossing the driveway. Erythronium rostratum continues to excite, and I should have some bulbs spare this coming year. There are a number of unidentified species - either because I have no idea what they are or I've forgotten what they are supposed to be - please let me know if you can identify any of these. There are also a few unidentified snowdrops - these should be easy to identify because I understand they are only named if obviously different to anything else currently available. Two Gazanias from Panayoti Kelaidis's generously supplied seed are wonderful - G. krebsiana 'Tanager' and G. linearis - and both seem persistent; those that do die off over winter are replaced by seedlings. A couple of very different variegated Mertensias found in Illinois are building up nicely and two fall-flowering and colorful 'daisies' that I love are Symphyotrichum georgianum and Pityopsis graminifolia. A particularly tidy form of the latter from SW Georgia is covered with yellow flowers over leaves so hairy they appear to be silver. I'm growing many more US natives from seed, so expect to see a lot of pictures of Baptisia, Amsonia, Aster, Solidago and more in future. There should also be many Helleborus species that are going in the recently renovated beds along the driveway, and more seed-raised paeony species should begin to flower. I've also planted many intersectional paeonies which will be spectacular as they continue to build up. Most folks don't do anything to calibrate their computer monitors, so the colors of the images they view often look very little like those the photographer intended because they are displayed using whatever default color profile happens to be installed. If you click on http://www.gballard.net/psd/go_live_page_profile/embeddedJPEGprofiles.html# you will find a review of aspects of color management, especially as they relate to viewing images in web browsers. FireFox 3 and Safari are the only two mainstream browsers that honor image's embedded ICC profiles and display them (corrected through the computer's monitor profile) in the manner intended by the author. I love Safari and would strongly recommend it, both for this feature and the fact that it renders pages much faster (on my computers at least) than any other browser, especially IE. Anyway - please enjoy the images and feel free to drop me a note with any comments. Thanks and all the best, J. John T Lonsdale PhD 407 Edgewood Drive, Exton, Pennsylvania 19341, USA Home: 610 594 9232 Cell: 484 678 9856 Fax: 315 571 9232 Visit "Edgewood" - The Lonsdale Garden at http://www.edgewoodgardens.net USDA Zone 6b From info@auchgourishbotanicgarden.org Thu Jan 1 16:13:42 2009 Message-Id: <4E62237631304B329C1870261C5BF3DB@homepc> From: Subject: Coir and or Coir based compast Date: Thu, 1 Jan 2009 21:13:40 -0000 Firstly can I wish everyone a stable and contented New year, to expect much more given the brown liquid such as Madoff et al have dropped people and companies into would be unsustainably optimistic, quite something coming from some one whose wife describes him as a perpetual optimist. Sit tight and work for the best is as much as can be hoped for. As to the subject of Coir could I introduce a note of caution please. The issue of carbon, costs and footprint is well enough aired elsewhere however here in Scotland specifically and the UK more generally the issue of plant growth media has been hotly debated, usually by those who don't properly understand the issues, e.g. in relation to peat and carbon releases when it is used. Because the gardens for which I am responsible operate on a carbon surplus audit one aspect considered thoroughly was Peat versus Coir and others such as husks from other crops. The resulting outcome demonstrated that the carbon audit in relation to the use of Coir, quite apart from its effectiveness, was truly dreadful and I would counsel great care when considering going down that route. It is worth baring in mind that the carbon footprint for the average North American is c. 7 tonnes p.a. the same calculation produces c. 3 tonnes for the average European within the boundaries of the EU prior to expansion taking in the former Warsaw Pack countries however I would very much doubt it has improved following the advent of their joining the EU. Interestingly there is a strange synergy between the above carbon footprints and the number of people who are needed to support a single North American and European [EU] which is respectively 7 and 3. Aside from the ethics associated with the use of Coir, at least as far as geophytes such as Cardiocrinum, Korolkowia, Lilium, Nomocharis and Notholirion being the genera with which I am working, neither Coir nor Peat [sphagnum types] are of any benefit what so ever either solely or in any thing like a major component. The disparity of Lilium e.g. as to requirements is as we know widely variable where quite frankly it matters little what medium they are grown; provided they have an absolute free draining location and irrigation able to provide, artificially, adequate nutrients in solution sufficient to mimic soluble nutrients in rainfall it seems neither peat nor coir brings much to the success of those taxa c. 130+ worked with so far, whether alpines growing in nature on insoluble limestone, or temperate to semi tropical deep litter or virtual sand and gravels has made little difference to outcomes here. The use and or reliance on Coir is as alluded to in one post principally that of providing something for roots to hang onto in hydroponic cultures in order to stay upright. The same post alluded to the use of bark as another medium in which to grow presumably bulbous plants as well; it may be of assistance to note that the use of bark from coniferous trees which has not totally weathered is likely to lead to serious losses. In hot weather fresh, or freshish bark, releases volatile chemicals similar e.g. in pines which are known as terpines, hence the root for turpentine, try growing any plant in or remotely close to the latter. Even when mixed with other material in various proportions such as mineral soils the effects can be seriously damaging even to trees and shrubs. All bark used must be composted bark and when handled should be as black as possible for anything to be, its admittedly very nice stuff to work with and handle but here we only use it as an anti weed mulch to a depth of 5 - 7 cms as well as introducing humus to land such as we have which is basically devoid of both humus and worms prior to doing so, and refreshed in alternate years mostly with us. Sorry to "go on" but all gardeners, as well as folk in general increasingly need to think and act responsibly however it is not always possible for the average gardener or anyone else for that matter to be aware of all research and implications working as most do in relative isolation. The suppliers of Coir et al are there to sell the stuff and even if they knew the ecological implications attendant on what they do e.g. transferring it half way around the globe in huge ships, would they consider it worth their while to look into the ecological impact, obviously not otherwise they wouldn't still be selling it! I would never the less welcome learning what advantages others have discovered and benefited from in their use of Coir etc and the circumstances in which benefits can be demonstrated. Iain -- I am using the free version of SPAMfighter. We are a community of 5.8 million users fighting spam. SPAMfighter has removed 40707 of my spam emails to date. Get the free SPAMfighter here: http://www.spamfighter.com/len The Professional version does not have this message From brown.mark@wanadoo.fr Fri Jan 2 05:45:48 2009 Message-Id: <665760.377635.1230893146858.JavaMail.www@wwinf2602> From: Mark BROWN Subject: Coir and  or Coir based compast Date: Fri, 2 Jan 2009 11:45:46 +0100 (CET) Iain, What medium do you use for humus ?Leafmould and/or well rotted garden compost ? Here people are still bagging their leaves for local council collection along with lawn mowings!Some are still even fly-tipping!! Yesterday I kindly offered to collect all the leaves from a small housing devellopement nearby.Lovely stuff! Climate change has not yet registered here in France sadly in spite of the persistant high winds that now blow from all directions,hence the leaf problems! Happy new year to all Mark > Message du 01/01/09 22:13 > De : info@auchgourishbotanicgarden.org > A : pbs@lists.ibiblio.org > Copie à : > Objet : [pbs] Coir and or Coir based compast > > Because the gardens for which I am responsible operate on a carbon surplus audit one aspect considered thoroughly was Peat versus Coir and others such as husks from other crops. The resulting outcome demonstrated that the carbon audit in relation to the use of Coir, quite apart from its effectiveness, was truly dreadful and I would counsel great care when considering going down that route. It is worth baring in mind that the carbon footprint for the average North American is c. 7 tonnes p.a. the same calculation produces c. 3 tonnes for the average European within the boundaries of the EU prior to ex > pansion taking in the former Warsaw Pack countries however I would very much doubt it has improved following the advent of their joining the EU. Interestingly there is a strange synergy between the above carbon footprints and the number of people who are needed to support a single North American and European [EU] which is respectively 7 and 3. > From pambraun@att.net Fri Jan 2 16:38:48 2009 Message-Id: <1AA64B3C47744C3B8EA317AB18E34820@pamoffice> From: "Pam Braun" Subject: New member Date: Fri, 2 Jan 2009 15:38:45 -0600 My name is Pam Braun, and I am an active member of National Garden Clubs, Inc. and the TN Federation of Garden Clubs. This year I will become a Flower Show School Instructor for N.G.C., Inc. in order to teach flower show judges horticulture. I am also a long time member of The Gesneriad Society and Gesneriad judge. Besides that I am a member of the Middle TN Daffodil Society, American Iris Society, American Begonia Society, American Ivy Society, American Hosta Society, and the Cactus & Succulent Society of America. I enjoy growing many different plants, but specialize in growing many tuberous plants. I also enjoy floral design work and am a member of the National Flower Arrangers and the Creative Floral Arrangers of America. Came across the PBS web site by accident, so decided it might be nice to join. Sounds like a good group and a chance to learn more. Pam Braun From info@auchgourishbotanicgarden.org Fri Jan 2 17:18:37 2009 Message-Id: <7D19E5A228F543F6AF609239D701EFF1@homepc> From: Subject: Coir v. Peat etc Date: Fri, 2 Jan 2009 22:18:40 -0000 Thanks for picking up on this Mark. In reply, additional to composted bark which we do have to buy and despite seeming to pander to the stereotypic Scot I am very reluctant to pay money to do so. Essentially the forest here is effectively the western end of the Boreal forest and therefore dominated by conifer, in my case Scots Pine... Pinus sylvestris ssp. scotica therefore apart from Birches we have little broadleaf component in the autumn to rely upon for leaf mould as we call it. However amongst the various houses in the village gardens are a fairly eclectic range of broadleaves so being the village idiot they prefer if I don't come in to collect it in case the sight of me frightens the horses so every autumn they all rally round and the leaves are bagged up for delivery here to the gardens, these are tied tight and stacked up in piles of bags for around three years by which time the leaf mould is perfect albeit only c. 20 - 25 % by volume and used for almost any kind of plants whether bulbs or shrubs. In fact we never have enough of it, the pines produce very little through the needles but we also have growing a lot of mosses and lichens that themselves suppress weed growth while looking attractive. All grass here, such little as there is, [ its mostly heathers.... Calluna and Erica's.growing on the cleared areas....] these grass cuttings being fed to the Highland Cattle here as a supplement to what they get foraging either in the forest or moorland fields. The cows "output" is collected up and stored for three years again by which time it is just perfect especially for lilies which everyone on PBS knows mustn't be planted in or near fresh cow dung. We stopped using horse manure because the winter supplementary feeding in the mountains for the Highland Garron ... a pretty big working pony/horse used to bring the deer carcases off the mountains in the autumn stalking season is derived from material which has chick weed and of all things celery seed in it. Like tomato seeds celery's is not damaged through the digestion process, nor chick weed. Also the latter is highly resistant to the only weed killer we are now left to use, which is why, or one of the reasons why, we rely so much on composted bark as a weed suppressant. Much of the narrow weed spectrum is restricted to naturally regenerating heathers, pine and birch seedlings as well as a few juniper. I do appreciate we are lucky to have so few weed species but the other side of the coin is that we have long winters, poor daylight in the winter and our fair share of frost right now for several weeks bumming around between - 8 C to - 14 C so far and the winter hasn't even started yet. Iain -- I am using the free version of SPAMfighter. We are a community of 5.8 million users fighting spam. SPAMfighter has removed 40857 of my spam emails to date. Get the free SPAMfighter here: http://www.spamfighter.com/len The Professional version does not have this message From brown.mark@wanadoo.fr Fri Jan 2 18:18:07 2009 Message-Id: <18423370.209017.1230938277466.JavaMail.www@wwinf1a13> From: Mark BROWN Subject: Coir v. Peat etc Date: Sat, 3 Jan 2009 00:17:57 +0100 (CET) I was trained under an old scottish gardener in england and one of the "chores" that I had to do was seive the wonderfully fragrant leafmould.Peat was never heard of!Except for some silly people who insisted on having rhododendrons in the chalk Chiltern Hills!! Bark was unheard of too,composted or not.I am using shredded prunings here for weed suppression in tree planting.I don't use conifer where conifers are to be planted if I can help it.I am trying it as a mulch on snowdrops too. I think that some people think me the village excentric too when I ask them for their old leaves!!Even mow,blow and go garden companies don't know what to do with them and don't seem inclined to off load them here in spite of repeated requests... Mark > Message du 02/01/09 23:18 > De : info@auchgourishbotanicgarden.org > A : pbs@lists.ibiblio.org > Copie à : > Objet : [pbs] Coir v. Peat etc > > > Thanks for picking up on this Mark. In reply, additional to composted bark which we do have to buy and despite seeming to pander to the stereotypic Scot I am very reluctant to pay money to do so. Essentially the forest here is effectively the western end of the Boreal forest and therefore dominated by conifer, in my case Scots Pine... Pinus sylvestris ssp. scotica therefore apart from Birches we have little broadleaf component in the autumn to rely upon for leaf mould as we call it. However amongst the various houses in the village gardens are a fairly eclectic range of broadleaves so being the village idiot they prefer if I don't come in to collect it in case the sight of me frightens the horses so every autumn they all rally round and the leaves are bagged up for delivery here to the gardens, these are tied tight and stacked up in piles of bags for around three years by which time the leaf mould is perfect albeit only c. 20 - 25 % by volume and used for almost any kind of p > lants whether bulbs or shrubs. In fact we never have enough of it, the pines produce very little through the needles but we also have growing a lot of mosses and lichens that themselves suppress weed growth while looking attractive. All grass here, such little as there is, [ its mostly heathers.... Calluna and Erica's.growing on the cleared areas....] these grass cuttings being fed to the Highland Cattle here as a supplement to what they get foraging either in the forest or moorland fields. The cows "output" is collected up and stored for three years again by which time it is just perfect especially for lilies which everyone on PBS knows mustn't be planted in or near fresh cow dung. We stopped using horse manure because the winter supplementary feeding in the mountains for the Highland Garron ... a pretty big working pony/horse used to bring the deer carcases off the mountains in the autumn stalking season is derived from material which has chick weed and of all things celer > y seed in it. Like tomato seeds celery's is not damaged through the digestion process, nor chick weed. Also the latter is highly resistant to the only weed killer we are now left to use, which is why, or one of the reasons why, we rely so much on composted bark as a weed suppressant. Much of the narrow weed spectrum is restricted to naturally regenerating heathers, pine and birch seedlings as well as a few juniper. I do appreciate we are lucky to have so few weed species but the other side of the coin is that we have long winters, poor daylight in the winter and our fair share of frost right now for several weeks bumming around between - 8 C to - 14 C so far and the winter hasn't even started yet. > > Iain > > -- > I am using the free version of SPAMfighter. > We are a community of 5.8 million users fighting spam. > SPAMfighter has removed 40857 of my spam emails to date. > Get the free SPAMfighter here: http://www.spamfighter.com/len > > The Professional version does not have this message > _______________________________________________ > pbs mailing list > pbs@lists.ibiblio.org > http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php > http://pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki > > From arnold@nj.rr.com Fri Jan 2 18:25:06 2009 Message-Id: <495EA1F8.2030601@nj.rr.com> From: Arnold Trachtenberg Subject: Coir v. Peat etc Date: Fri, 02 Jan 2009 18:23:36 -0500 I've been following the thread on coir. My understanding is that coir is the by product of growing coconuts. Isn't it better to use it that dump it in the ocean or in land fills? I have also read that very little fertilizers are used on coconuts which makes it a good choice for organic minded folks. Arnold Coastal New Jersey From scamp@earthlink.net Fri Jan 2 20:13:47 2009 Message-Id: From: "Christine Council" Subject: Coir and or Coir based compast Date: Fri, 2 Jan 2009 20:13:37 -0500 Hello everybody, Wishing you a wonderful new year and many blessings. Thank you for your message regarding coir for I have been asking about it and trying to find out who and where to purchase it. I am not up to snuff on plant and gardening information but have been trying to catch up on all that I have missed for the last couple of years. I am very interested in rooting agents and the best way to handle one of my new projects, which is growing banana trees or bushes or what ever they are. Thanks again and I think I will stick with what I know. Chris Council From: pbs-bounces@lists.ibiblio.org [mailto:pbs-bounces@lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf Of info@auchgourishbotanicgarden.org Sent: Thursday, January 01, 2009 4:14 PM To: pbs@lists.ibiblio.org Subject: [pbs] Coir and or Coir based compast Firstly can I wish everyone a stable and contented New year, to expect much more given the brown liquid such as Madoff et al have dropped people and companies into would be unsustainably optimistic, quite something coming from some one whose wife describes him as a perpetual optimist. Sit tight and work for the best is as much as can be hoped for. As to the subject of Coir could I introduce a note of caution please. The issue of carbon, costs and footprint is well enough aired elsewhere however here in Scotland specifically and the UK more generally the issue of plant growth media has been hotly debated, usually by those who don't properly understand the issues, e.g. in relation to peat and carbon releases when it is used. Because the gardens for which I am responsible operate on a carbon surplus audit one aspect considered thoroughly was Peat versus Coir and others such as husks from other crops. The resulting outcome demonstrated that the carbon audit in relation to the use of Coir, quite apart from its effectiveness, was truly dreadful and I would counsel great care when considering going down that route. It is worth baring in mind that the carbon footprint for the average North American is c. 7 tonnes p.a. the same calculation produces c. 3 tonnes for the average European within the boundaries of the EU prior to ex pansion taking in the former Warsaw Pack countries however I would very much doubt it has improved following the advent of their joining the EU. Interestingly there is a strange synergy between the above carbon footprints and the number of people who are needed to support a single North American and European [EU] which is respectively 7 and 3. Aside from the ethics associated with the use of Coir, at least as far as geophytes such as Cardiocrinum, Korolkowia, Lilium, Nomocharis and Notholirion being the genera with which I am working, neither Coir nor Peat [sphagnum types] are of any benefit what so ever either solely or in any thing like a major component. The disparity of Lilium e.g. as to requirements is as we know widely variable where quite frankly it matters little what medium they are grown; provided they have an absolute free draining location and irrigation able to provide, artificially, adequate nutrients in solution sufficient to mimic soluble nutrients in rainfall it seems neither peat nor coir brings much to the success of those taxa c. 130+ worked with so far, whether alpines growing in nature on insoluble limestone, or temperate to semi tropical deep litter or virtual sand and gravels has made little difference to outcomes here. The use and or reliance on Coir is as alluded to in one post principally that of providing something for roots to hang onto in hydroponic cultures in order to stay upright. The same post alluded to the use of bark as another medium in which to grow presumably bulbous plants as well; it may be of assistance to note that the use of bark from coniferous trees which has not totally weathered is likely to lead to serious losses. In hot weather fresh, or freshish bark, releases volatile chemicals similar e.g. in pines which are known as terpines, hence the root for turpentine, try growing any plant in or remotely close to the latter. Even when mixed with other material in various proportions such as mineral soils the effects can be seriously damaging even to trees and shrubs. All bark used must be composted bark and when handled should be as black as possible for anything to be, its admittedly very nice stuff to work with and handle but here we only use it as an anti weed mulch to a depth of 5 - 7 cms as well as introducing humus to land such as we have which is basically devoid of both humus and worms prior to doing so, and refreshed in alternate ye ars mostly with us. Sorry to "go on" but all gardeners, as well as folk in general increasingly need to think and act responsibly however it is not always possible for the average gardener or anyone else for that matter to be aware of all research and implications working as most do in relative isolation. The suppliers of Coir et al are there to sell the stuff and even if they knew the ecological implications attendant on what they do e.g. transferring it half way around the globe in huge ships, would they consider it worth their while to look into the ecological impact, obviously not otherwise they wouldn't still be selling it! I would never the less welcome learning what advantages others have discovered and benefited from in their use of Coir etc and the circumstances in which benefits can be demonstrated. Iain -- I am using the free version of SPAMfighter. We are a community of 5.8 million users fighting spam. SPAMfighter has removed 40707 of my spam emails to date. Get the free SPAMfighter here: http://www.spamfighter.com/len The Professional version does not have this message _______________________________________________ pbs mailing list pbs@lists.ibiblio.org http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php http://pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki From voltaire@islandnet.com Fri Jan 2 20:29:18 2009 Message-Id: From: Diane Whitehead Subject: Coir v. Peat etc Date: Fri, 2 Jan 2009 17:28:30 -0800 coir is the by product of growing coconuts. Isn't it better to use it that dump it in the ocean or in land fills? ============================= I guess it depends where the coir comes from. I've just come back from one coconut growing area - the Marquesas - a long long way from anywhere, in the middle of the Pacific. The insides of the coconuts are removed and dried on racks in the sun, then shipped out for the oil to be extracted. I did not notice great quantities of the shells, and the freighter I was on did not pick up any. I imagine the cost of shipping to anywhere that wants them would be exorbitant. Where I once worked on the island of Borneo, the copra was heated over outdoor fires to extract the oil by village women, and its use in cooking smelled and tasted wonderful. I don't remember the need to get rid of lots of shells - maybe they were the fuel. This was all small-scale, though. The women were doing it for their own use. Diane Whitehead From leo@possi.org Fri Jan 2 20:55:09 2009 Message-Id: From: "Leo A. Martin" Subject: Tropaeolum pentaphyllum Date: Fri, 2 Jan 2009 17:55:07 -0800 (PST) Alberto Castillo wrote about Tropaeolum. Thanks for the information. We don't have hot dry Cape summers--60% of our 250mm / 8 inches average rain falls between July and September. But we are hotter than the Cape. I'll report back in a year on my results. I do have a place for a large vine. Leo From ezeizabotgard@hotmail.com Sat Jan 3 07:23:39 2009 Message-Id: From: Alberto Castillo Subject: Tropaeolum pentaphyllum Date: Sat, 3 Jan 2009 12:23:27 +0000 Hi Leo: Sounds like with your conditions and only minor adjustments, you can grow this glorious vine as a long lived perennial. If you water it in winter while it is active, then your natural rainfall will do the rest to avoid the fleshy, juicy tubers shrivel to nothing while dormant in summer. If I did not mention this, its natural soil in the ground is a rich alkaline somewhat clayey loam, perhaps a big bag of good commercial compost in the planting hole can do the trick. Good Luck. This is among the best of all species in the genus. Regards "We don't have hot dry Cape summers--60% of our> 250mm / 8 inches average rain falls between July and September. But we are> hotter than the Cape". _________________________________________________________________ Enterate todas las novedades del mundo del deporte por MSN. http://msn.foxsports.com/fslasc From to.sa@comhem.se Sat Jan 3 13:25:05 2009 Message-Id: From: Tomas Sandberg Subject: Griffinia Date: Sat, 3 Jan 2009 19:25:03 +0100 Hi, I'm just curious about the Griffinias, anybody of you collecting these lovely plants? Im interested in trading when I have got offsets, right now I have offsets from 2 different G. species, but hopefully it will be more by time when these usually set offsets freely! I have all exept the G. nocturna which seems to be extremely hard to obtain! I hope all of you will get a good growing new year. Tomas From ds429@comcast.net Sat Jan 3 14:19:47 2009 Message-Id: <002301c96dd8$3d1ddaa0$b7598fe0$@net> From: "Dell Sherk" Subject: New member Pam Braun Date: Sat, 3 Jan 2009 14:19:45 -0500 Dear Pam, Welcome to the list! This is a good place to hang out if you are interested in tuberous plants. I hope that you have also joined the Pacific Bulb Society www.pacificbulobsociety.org so that you can participate in the BX (seed and bulb exchange). We have many members who are affiliated with other plant organizations. In common with you, I also belong to the Cactus and Succulent Society of America and The Gesneriad Society, and the Species Iris Society of North America, as well as several others. I daresay that you will find in PBS a great group of friendly, knowledgeable, generous people, the best visual/verbal geophyte resource on the internet (the PBS wiki,) and the most active seed and bulb exchange anywhere. Glad to have you here, Dell Dell Sherk, Director, PBS BX E. Pennsylvania, USA From oothal@hotmail.com Sat Jan 3 18:35:45 2009 Message-Id: From: Justin Smith Subject: Griffinia Date: Sat, 3 Jan 2009 17:35:44 -0600 > > I'm just curious about the Griffinias, anybody of you collecting these > lovely plants?> The closest I have ever come to even seeing a Griffinias is a photo. Thought about cutting it out and planting the picture in a pot. Then I thought better of it, since I would most likely get a paper cut. Justin Woodville, TX zone 8b/9a _________________________________________________________________ Send e-mail faster without improving your typing skills. http://windowslive.com/online/hotmail?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_hotmail_acq_speed_122008 From oothal@hotmail.com Sat Jan 3 18:51:22 2009 Message-Id: From: Justin Smith Subject: Question about pest mammals and bulbs Date: Sat, 3 Jan 2009 17:51:19 -0600 Hi all, Yesterday morning I went out to look at my little bitty seed/bulb farm. Much to my horror my neighbors free range chickens had decided to come visit early. Besides the Chicken soup I am bound to make. I was wondering if there were pests to worry about. I have no idea if rats/mice will dig up bulbs. I have never seen it for Amaryllis that are around my house. I have heard that squirrels can eat glad bulbs but they have never bothered any of mine. Maybe due to the over abundance of pine cones and acorns. I have had an occational toad to burrow in a pot but they just push stuff aside. There are moles here but they are easy to get rid of. I live out in the country. Though deer are common they very rarely come close to the house since I have no veggie garden. Since the chicken attack I have put up a plastic screen so the chickens can't get a free lunch. Which was easy since they are covered and up against the house. I was just wondering if there were any animals that will enjoy a meal at my expense. Thanks Justin Woodville, TX 8b/9a _________________________________________________________________ It’s the same Hotmail®. If by “same” you mean up to 70% faster. http://windowslive.com/online/hotmail?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_hotmail_acq_broad1_122008 From idavide@sbcglobal.net Sat Jan 3 20:00:09 2009 Message-Id: <101532.60352.qm@web81004.mail.mud.yahoo.com> From: David Ehrlich Subject: Question about pest mammals and bulbs Date: Sat, 3 Jan 2009 17:00:07 -0800 (PST) Cats!  Dog owners must keep their pets on leash and clean up after them.  Not so cat owners.  They let their animals range free.  Cats don't eat the bulbs; but they love to shit on the soft earth and scratch out the bulbs afterwards. Also, maybe deer.  I've never observed them browsing on anything but native plants growing at the forest edge, but my neighbor assures me they eat her roses.  And someone's been eating my irises. From meneice@att.net Sat Jan 3 20:25:53 2009 Message-Id: <2F5BE596021A40028FD28303A7C98B27@DF5XS5C1> From: Subject: Animal pests Date: Sat, 3 Jan 2009 17:25:49 -0800 Deer, especially fawns will bite off anything but green cement. If they don't like it, they spit it out. In Calif. they particularly seem to like roses, iris (except I. foetidissima), buds of most bulbs, and seem to prefer perennials and annuals to woody shrubs. I guess I would too. I have had pack rats gnaw off fairly sizeable camellia branches (complete with identifying aluminum tag) and use them for nesting material. My local moles sometimes rearrange a bulb bed, but do not eat the bulbs. Scrub jays and stellar jays will pull up seedlings and eat them as well as some of the smaller bulbs as they just emerge from the ground. Crows are good at that, too. Raccoons and skunks also damage seed beds by bull-dozing through them looking for bugs and grubs. Then there are the voles and the rabbits. They are not too choosy in their diet. Cats you have already heard. The other domesticated headache is the digging dog or puppy. They are trying to help you catch gophers, moles, voles and other tunneling pests, but they can excavate a whale of a lot of soil, including adobe clay, in a very short time. Other than that, I haven't had many living pests interfere with my garden, unless you count aphids, grasshoppers and caterpillars. From arnold@nj.rr.com Sat Jan 3 20:27:32 2009 Message-Id: <4960102A.2090401@nj.rr.com> From: Arnold Trachtenberg Subject: Question about pest mammals and bulbs Date: Sat, 03 Jan 2009 20:26:02 -0500 The only pest problem I have had here is with squirrels digging up the emerging shoots of spring Crocus and devouring the corms. It looked like the aftermath of a cocktail party and what would happen to a dish of macadamia nuts. Arnold New Jersey From voltaire@islandnet.com Sat Jan 3 20:34:45 2009 Message-Id: From: Diane Whitehead Subject: Question about pest mammals and bulbs Date: Sat, 3 Jan 2009 17:33:58 -0800 Rats. They soon learn that pots of grassy-looking seedlings have tasty little bulbs just under the ground, and as my seedling mix is very loose, the seedlings pull up very easily, the tiny bulbs are eaten, and the green leaves left lying about. I now keep the pots covered until the plants are a few years old. They really liked babianas and cyclamen. Narcissus and Galanthus haven't been eaten. I can't remember about Alliums - I think some of them were. Diane Whitehead Victoria, British Columbia, Canada maritime zone 8, cool Mediterranean climate mild rainy winters, mild dry summers From idavide@sbcglobal.net Sat Jan 3 20:55:35 2009 Message-Id: <873062.53489.qm@web81006.mail.mud.yahoo.com> From: David Ehrlich Subject: Question about pest mammals and bulbs Date: Sat, 3 Jan 2009 17:55:33 -0800 (PST) Hmmn, do you think a squirrel could open a macadamia nut? A great surpise for me, some yeears ago, was to find an acorn germinating in a pot on my third floor patio.  I assume it had been buried there by a squirrel. ________________________________ From: Arnold Trachtenberg To: Pacific Bulb Society Sent: Saturday, January 3, 2009 5:26:02 PM Subject: Re: [pbs] Question about pest mammals and bulbs The only pest problem I have had here is with squirrels digging up the emerging shoots of spring Crocus and devouring the corms. It looked like  the aftermath of a cocktail party and what would happen to a dish of macadamia nuts. Arnold New Jersey _______________________________________________ pbs mailing list pbs@lists.ibiblio.org http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php http://pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki From Blee811@aol.com Sat Jan 3 22:19:41 2009 Message-Id: From: Blee811@aol.com Subject: Question about pest mammals and bulbs Date: Sat, 3 Jan 2009 22:21:23 EST I have observed that squirels are especially interested in new plantings, apparently attracted to newly dug soil. This seems especially true for small bulbs newly planted, crocus and the like. Some people will sprinkle red paper flakes around these plantings, which I find abhorrent. As much as I don't want squirrels digging up my plantings, I also don't favor torturing animals. Rub some red pepper flakes in your own eyes to see what I mean. Pin some wire mesh over these plantings instead. Bill Lee **************New year...new news. Be the first to know what is making headlines. (http://www.aol.com/?ncid=emlcntaolcom00000026) From hansennursery@coosnet.com Sat Jan 3 22:23:23 2009 Message-Id: <22C28985E2304F9691D9FCDFB34EFF1B@homed4aec9b2d8> From: "Robin Hansen" Subject: Question about pest mammals and bulbs Date: Sat, 3 Jan 2009 19:23:09 -0800 Birds seem to scratch in my troughs and have pulled things up. Guess they like my granite grit topping. I've learned to garden around my dogs and cats. Bamboo stakes around newly planted things keep them away until the plants are bigger. So far the bears haven't done anything except upend the garbage can and leave a bearpile in the path next to the greenhouse. Robin Hansen North Bend Oregon our high today was 40F From eagle85@flash.net Sat Jan 3 22:56:31 2009 Message-Id: <5966FDFA-7BB9-419D-9037-9D909BDC3666@flash.net> From: Douglas Westfall Subject: Question about pest mammals and bulbs Date: Sat, 3 Jan 2009 19:56:25 -0800 Arnold, I tried several times to establish Daffodils at our place in the Sierras even to the point of enclosing them in chicken wire "cages". Guess who won the "majority of the time? Not me! Doug From pbs@pilling.demon.co.uk Sun Jan 4 07:35:17 2009 Message-Id: From: David Pilling Subject: Question about pest mammals and bulbs Date: Sun, 4 Jan 2009 12:33:51 +0000 One idea (http://science.jrank.org/pages/279/Amaryllis-Family-Amaryllidaceae.html) is that the Amaryllis family (daffodils, snowdrops) contain needle like crystals (raphides) as a defence against being eaten. I presume this explains why tulips in the garden are eaten and snowdrops left kicking around on the surface are untouched. One often sees the poisonous plants in a field of animals left untouched rather than lots of carrion - they're not stupid. -- David Pilling email: david@pilling.demon.co.uk web: http://www.davidpilling.net post: David Pilling P.O. Box 22 Thornton Cleveleys Blackpool. FY5 1LR UK fax: +44(0)870-0520-941 From jshields@indy.net Sun Jan 4 09:32:59 2009 Message-Id: <5.1.0.14.2.20090104092840.01cf8938@pop.indy.net> From: "J.E. Shields" Subject: Question about pest mammals and bulbs Date: Sun, 04 Jan 2009 09:33:45 -0500 Thanks for the link, David. Bulbs in the Amaryllis Family also contain physiologically active (i.e., toxic) alkaloids that serve as deterrents to animal predation. So I wonder why Doug's daffodils in the mountains keep disappearing? The only predator that occurs to me is bulb flies, which are not deterred by alkaloids. Jim Shields in central Indiana (USA) At 12:33 PM 1/4/2009 +0000, you wrote: >One idea >(http://science.jrank.org/pages/279/Amaryllis-Family-Amaryllidaceae.html) >is that the Amaryllis family (daffodils, snowdrops) contain needle like >crystals (raphides) as a defence against being eaten. > >I presume this explains why tulips in the garden are eaten and snowdrops >left kicking around on the surface are untouched. > >One often sees the poisonous plants in a field of animals left untouched >rather than lots of carrion - they're not stupid. > > >-- >David Pilling >email: david@pilling.demon.co.uk > web: http://www.davidpilling.net > post: David Pilling P.O. Box 22 Thornton Cleveleys Blackpool. FY5 1LR UK > fax: +44(0)870-0520-941 ************************************************* Jim Shields USDA Zone 5 Shields Gardens, Ltd. P.O. Box 92 WWW: http://www.shieldsgardens.com/ Westfield, Indiana 46074, USA Tel. ++1-317-867-3344 or toll-free 1-866-449-3344 in USA From arnold@nj.rr.com Sun Jan 4 09:48:24 2009 Message-Id: <4960CBDE.3060106@nj.rr.com> From: Arnold Trachtenberg Subject: Question about pest mammals and bulbs Date: Sun, 04 Jan 2009 09:46:54 -0500 David: I've only seen macadamia nuts already shelled. Arnold From arnold@nj.rr.com Sun Jan 4 09:54:24 2009 Message-Id: <4960CD46.5020708@nj.rr.com> From: Arnold Trachtenberg Subject: Question about pest mammals and bulbs Date: Sun, 04 Jan 2009 09:52:54 -0500 Doug: Where the daffodils dug up or just disappeared. Arnold From Blee811@aol.com Sun Jan 4 10:14:41 2009 Message-Id: From: Blee811@aol.com Subject: Question about pest mammals and bulbs Date: Sun, 4 Jan 2009 10:14:38 EST In a message dated 1/4/2009 9:33:25 AM Eastern Standard Time, jshields@indy.net writes: So I wonder why Doug's daffodils in the mountains keep disappearing? The only predator that occurs to me is bulb flies, which are not deterred by alkaloids. There are also human predators who think that any plant can be theirs just for digging it up. Is it possible that some people think that's a wild planting and theirs for the taking? Bill Lee **************New year...new news. Be the first to know what is making headlines. (http://www.aol.com/?ncid=emlcntaolcom00000026) From jglatt@hughes.net Sun Jan 4 10:26:27 2009 Message-Id: <4960D51E.9080202@hughes.net> From: Judy Glattstein Subject: Coping with Pests Date: Sun, 04 Jan 2009 10:26:22 -0500 As has already been mentioned bulbs in the Amaryllidaceae are pest resistant. So are Araceae. I've heard that even hosta (a favorite on Bambi's salad bar) can be protected with bamboo skewers pointed end up pushed in amongst the leaves. Another tip was to soak the foam of disposable paint brushes in reconstituted dried blood, that being a repellent for some animals. I've had good success with Milorganite. Be sure to cycle repellents. Constant use of one only habituates the vermin to it. My now out-of-print book "Made for the Shade" has an appendix on coping with deer, including commercial and home-made repellents, recipes included. For squirrels, try sprinkling spiny Ilex opaca leaves, or short lengths of trimmings from roses, blackberry canes, etc. over the soft soil. An old window screen dropped over the area is also a good option. I checked potted "Dutch" bulbs in the garage - guess I won't enjoy any tulips, as the mice have eaten every one. Gardening is such fun, bringing us into the web of life in unanticipated ways. One winter I did see a red fox trot over the snow, then pause. Head tilted forward, ears pricked. Double foot pounce, head into snow, then swift fling, toss, and gulp. After swallowing the vole he trotted off, hopefully to find some more. Red tail hawks, great horned owls, snakes - all part of the BelleWood Gardens pest patrol. Judy From plicht@berkeley.edu Sun Jan 4 10:51:17 2009 Message-Id: <4960DAE2.8020605@berkeley.edu> From: Paul Licht Subject: Question about pest mammals and bulbs (Justin Smith) Date: Sun, 04 Jan 2009 07:50:58 -0800 The list of creatures that will disrupt or destroy bulbs goes on. Last week, we discovered that among hundreds of potted mature and seedling bulbs, something had selectively dug up and eaten the a whole flat of /*Gladiolus liliaceus*/ without touching anything around it. A few days later, I moved a lot of trays into a new greenhouse because of pending frost and the same thing was discovered the next morning with a surviving tray of the same species. We set a few traps and instantly got a Peromyscus and haven't had any troubles since. We have had them attack many other seedlings but this is the first we saw the selective bulb activity. Of course, squirrels constantly dig up pots; I think mostly to bury their acorns. Our California jays do the same. Racoons frequently empty a pot looking for grubs but seldom eat the bulbs. Because of deers, I haven't seen the Watsonia in full bloom for years around my own home outside of the fencing; they always wait until the night before the buds are ready to open. This year we are experiencing an epidemic of pack rats but so far, their extensive damage to plants does not seem to have included our bulbs. If you have bulbs planted out, then you have the pocket gophers and voles (Microtus) to contend with. We have virtually given up on Lilium because of the Microtus. I'm sure I've missed several -- Paul Licht, Director Univ. California Botanical Garden 200 Centennial Drive Berkeley, CA 94720 (510)-643-8999 http://botanicalgarden.berkeley.edu From info@auchgourishbotanicgarden.org Sun Jan 4 16:26:28 2009 Message-Id: <23CCB63C150145B6B3899CFA0FAB3527@homepc> From: Subject: Coir etc Date: Sun, 4 Jan 2009 21:26:11 -0000 Arnold you are quite right in one sense as to whether it is best to use it or loose it. However it isn't as simple as that as Diane has illustrated to a good degree. One thing we do know is this material is not dumped in the sea as you feel might happen to it, that requires hard work, nobody gets paid to do it and why bother when they can and do use it in numerous ways as Diane has pointed out. In the final analysis this material is virtually useless for horticulture but fairly bumps up some firm's bank balances while customers can still be persuaded of its wondrous properties, until they work it out for themselves. We researched this very thoroughly as there was a great 'movement' so to speak in the early 90's however it became abundantly clear, aside from the huge carbon deficit in respect of shipping that there was the other issue just as important, namely we in the wealthy west were abstracting not just the nutrients from tropical soils but also as badly needed as that is everywhere, the humus lost following no return of the bye products to their own local nutrient cycle, so it seems to me personally. This is in my humble opinion one less extractive "process" we don't need and these folks are better off without. This same 'movement' pilloried people for using peat extracted from bogs which here in northern Europe we are producing substantially annually more than is used for agriculture, horticulture or heat generation combined. Peat used in the production of annual plants is an audit carbon deficit and clearly unacceptable, however when used for growing shrubs, trees and other perennial plants the carbon sequestered by the latter vastly exceeds the carbon released by mining peat bogs. Leaving aside the moral aspect as well as the financial, growing plants in this material is a no-brianer when in the northern hemisphere we have ample and better alternatives as well as no risk from the introduction of pest species, insects, fungi and virus. A little more self reliance and increasing our awareness of nutrient cycles appropriate to this hemisphere's soils is slowly but surely shifting folk's assessments of what they do and should do. Just five years ago our local government collected household waste and dumped 100% into landfill, now we recycle everything, plastic, glass and green waste separately yet we are still behind the curve with some other areas which are converting waste into heat, novel for us, but standard for the Scandinavians e.g. A big subject with plenty of heat and not so much light from time to time. I hope I have not offended either Arnold any one else. Iain From info@auchgourishbotanicgarden.org Sun Jan 4 16:30:06 2009 Message-Id: <3097FF9AA928419398A2213159470110@homepc> From: Subject: Animals and bulbs Date: Sun, 4 Jan 2009 21:30:14 -0000 It is best to work on the principle that if it walks or flies there is a racing certainly it will eat bulbs and green shoots, hungry or curious, they are going to do so. Buy a radical cook book the opportunities are endless. Iain From HHeaven77@aol.com Sun Jan 4 19:27:51 2009 Message-Id: <8CB3CE38B84B232-D5C-121B@WEBMAIL-DG14.sim.aol.com> From: hheaven77@aol.com Subject: Question about pest mammals and bulbs Date: Sun, 04 Jan 2009 19:27:37 -0500 Macadamia nuts are outrageously expensive because it is so hard to open the shells without smashing the nuts to oblivion. Macadamias have always been known for their extreme difficulty in shelling, as their shells are the hardest in the nut family. It takes 300 pounds per square inch of pressure to crack the shell. Yes, macadamia nuts in the shell can be anywhere from 40% to 85% cheaper than shelled nuts, but because they’re so hard to open, they are seldom available in the shell. Maybe it would be fun to give a few to the neighborhood troublemaker squirrels to see if they can figure out how to open them... Celeste in cloudy and drizzly Phoenix, AZ  -----Original Message----- David: I've only seen macadamia nuts already shelled. Arnold From xerics@cox.net Sun Jan 4 20:03:01 2009 Message-Id: <002901c96ed1$5573ea50$005bbef0$@net> From: "Richard" Subject: Question about pest mammals and bulbs Date: Sun, 4 Jan 2009 17:02:51 -0800 The rats in my neighborhood have no trouble gnawing right into them. Evidence is a whole lot of nut shells with holes and missing kernals. Richard Vista CA Macadamia nuts are outrageously expensive because it is so hard to open the shells without smashing the nuts to oblivion. Macadamias have always been known for their extreme difficulty in shelling, as their shells are the hardest in the nut family. It takes 300 pounds per square inch of pressure to crack the shell. Yes, macadamia nuts in the shell can be anywhere from 40% to 85% cheaper than shelled nuts, but because theyre so hard to open, they are seldom available in the shell. Maybe it would be fun to give a few to the neighborhood troublemaker squirrels to see if they can figure out how to open them... Celeste in cloudy and drizzly Phoenix, AZ -----Original Message----- From oothal@hotmail.com Sun Jan 4 20:26:04 2009 Message-Id: From: Justin Smith Subject: Coir and something about human hair Date: Sun, 4 Jan 2009 19:26:03 -0600 To coir or not to coir. This subject has brought about a lively debate that I find interesting. Though I don't think much of it can be found in the megopolis of Woodville, TX. It has shaken a few of my brain cells and if I remember correctly I read an article about someone here in the USA importing human hair to be used in the nursery trade. For weed control I think it was. Any one else remember anything like that? Hmmm give me a pot full of blonde for my amaryllis and a pot full of brunet for my moraea. Sounds kinda strange but so does bone meal. Justin Woodville, TX 8b/9a _________________________________________________________________ It’s the same Hotmail®. If by “same” you mean up to 70% faster. http://windowslive.com/online/hotmail?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_hotmail_acq_broad1_122008 From arnold@nj.rr.com Sun Jan 4 21:41:04 2009 Message-Id: <496172E6.7020502@nj.rr.com> From: Arnold Trachtenberg Subject: Question about pest mammals and bulbs Date: Sun, 04 Jan 2009 21:39:34 -0500 Celeste: My feeling is that you know way too much about macadamia shell hardness, what gives? Arnold From arnold@nj.rr.com Sun Jan 4 21:50:36 2009 Message-Id: <49617521.1000702@nj.rr.com> From: Arnold Trachtenberg Subject: Coir etc Date: Sun, 04 Jan 2009 21:49:05 -0500 Iain: Thank you for a clear image of the problem. We collect street tree leaves and give them to a commercial composter who then sells the stuff back to us. Arnold From eagle85@flash.net Sun Jan 4 22:02:06 2009 Message-Id: <7777E9F6-008C-4AAD-BCCA-CFB29C66A36B@flash.net> From: Douglas Westfall Subject: Question about pest mammals and bulbs Date: Sun, 4 Jan 2009 19:02:00 -0800 " Bulbs in the Amaryllis Family also contain physiologically active (i.e., toxic) alkaloids that serve as deterrents to animal predation. So I wonder why Doug's daffodils in the mountains keep disappearing? The only predator that occurs to me is bulb flies, which are not deterred by alkaloids." Jim Shields, I think that it could be squirrels. Doug From eagle85@flash.net Sun Jan 4 22:03:11 2009 Message-Id: <2F92A975-588B-4BD4-95DD-DC7F3459CC7C@flash.net> From: Douglas Westfall Subject: Question about pest mammals and bulbs Date: Sun, 4 Jan 2009 19:03:06 -0800 "Where the daffodils dug up or just disappeared." Arnold, Both. Doug From idavide@sbcglobal.net Sun Jan 4 22:07:34 2009 Message-Id: <829457.52667.qm@web81001.mail.mud.yahoo.com> From: David Ehrlich Subject: Macadamia nuts Date: Sun, 4 Jan 2009 19:07:33 -0800 (PST) Arnold,   It's a California thing -- they grow here.  I guess they grow in Florida too, and of course, Hawai'i.  Anyway, we can and do get them in the shell, and then we have a lot of fun trying to open them.  Tarmac isn't hard enough -- a cement sidewalk and a hammer work if you can prevent the sperical nuts from scooting away from the hammer. David ________________________________ From: Arnold Trachtenberg To: Pacific Bulb Society Sent: Sunday, January 4, 2009 6:39:34 PM Subject: Re: [pbs] Question about pest mammals and bulbs Celeste: My feeling is that you know way too much about macadamia shell hardness, what gives? Arnold _______________________________________________ pbs mailing list pbs@lists.ibiblio.org http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php http://pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki From eagle85@flash.net Sun Jan 4 22:08:12 2009 Message-Id: From: Douglas Westfall Subject: Question about pest mammals and bulbs Date: Sun, 4 Jan 2009 19:08:06 -0800 "My feeling is that you know way too much about macadamia shell hardness, what gives?" Arnold, Not only rats, but squirrels, AND crows break into the shells (on our roof). Doug From eagle85@flash.net Sun Jan 4 22:15:12 2009 Message-Id: <17AAA8FE-14AB-4CAA-A161-25043D730E18@flash.net> From: Douglas Westfall Subject: Question about pest mammals and bulbs Date: Sun, 4 Jan 2009 19:15:07 -0800 "There are also human predators who think that any plant can be theirs just for digging it up. Is it possible that some people think that's a wild planting and theirs for the taking?" Bill Lee, That could be, but they are on our property at 6000 ft. alt. But we do not live there year round. Doug From arnold@nj.rr.com Sun Jan 4 22:50:29 2009 Message-Id: <4961832B.7060708@nj.rr.com> From: Arnold Trachtenberg Subject: Question about pest mammals and bulbs Date: Sun, 04 Jan 2009 22:48:59 -0500 Ah ha, we overlooked the two legged bulb snatcher! Arnold From j.grimshaw@virgin.net Mon Jan 5 00:34:51 2009 Message-Id: <005c01c96ef7$55907dc0$0401a8c0@MAINPC> From: "John Grimshaw" Subject: Macadamia nuts Date: Mon, 5 Jan 2009 05:34:51 -0000 As Celeste says, cracking Macadamia nuts is a tedious business. When I lived in Tanzania kind neighbours gave me a bag-full and I spent an afternoon cracking them with a hammer against the steps. Having eventually garnered a harvest of fragmentary nuts I thought they'd be better for a quick toast in the oven, so popped them in - and cremated the lot in about 2 minutes! Very vexing. From the botanical viewpoint I always think it's interesting that they are are one of very few edible members of the Proteaceae - I like biodiversity in my diet! John Grimshaw Dr. John M. Grimshaw Sycamore Cottage Colesbourne Cheltenham Gloucestershire GL53 9NP Tel. 01242 870567 ----- Original Message ----- From: > > Macadamia nuts are outrageously expensive because it is so hard to open > the shells without smashing the nuts to oblivion. > From jshields@indy.net Mon Jan 5 10:02:34 2009 Message-Id: <5.1.0.14.2.20090105092855.01d07ea8@pop.indy.net> From: "J.E. Shields" Subject: [IBSMEMBERS] Namibian Bulbs Date: Mon, 05 Jan 2009 10:03:21 -0500 Some great pictures of Namibian bulbs are shown at: http://www.bihrmann.com/rejser/NAM/Bul-all/ taken by someone named Bihrmann with whom I'm not acquainted. I was able to ID one set, of Nerine laticoma in flower ("Pink sp. 1"). Now if someone could just tell me how to get my own bulbs of Nerine laticoma to bloom like those in the pictures from Namibia.....! My laticoma grow in pots and spend the summers in full sun on our patio or deck. They are fed only very cautiously, with 0-25-40 (no nitrogen). My pots of laticoma are wintered over (dormant period) under the bench in my South African greenhouse, where winter temperatures on very cold nights dip down between 32°F and 40°F (about 0°C to +4°C). These temperatures trigger bloom in my Nerine krigei and in the one bulb of Nerine "forbesii" which I assume is from Swaziland. Or maybe it isn't winter chill that triggers flowering in laticoma? Anyone have luck getting laticoma to bloom? Jim Shields in central Indiana (USA) ************************************************* Jim Shields USDA Zone 5 Shields Gardens, Ltd. P.O. Box 92 WWW: http://www.shieldsgardens.com/ Westfield, Indiana 46074, USA Tel. ++1-317-867-3344 or toll-free 1-866-449-3344 in USA From info@auchgourishbotanicgarden.org Mon Jan 5 11:36:33 2009 Message-Id: From: Subject: leaves composted versus coir Date: Mon, 5 Jan 2009 16:36:42 -0000 Arnold that's a brilliant story, any betting the guy who gets the material and sells it back has just got to be a Scots American. Iain PS. Currently we are at -10 C @ midday time and when I looked out the window a few moments ago at the trees I am sure that I saw our neighbour's brass monkeys swinging their way south. -- I am using the free version of SPAMfighter. We are a community of 5.8 million users fighting spam. SPAMfighter has removed 41278 of my spam emails to date. Get the free SPAMfighter here: http://www.spamfighter.com/len The Professional version does not have this message From ezeizabotgard@hotmail.com Mon Jan 5 12:15:24 2009 Message-Id: From: Alberto Castillo Subject: [IBSMEMBERS] Namibian Bulbs Date: Mon, 5 Jan 2009 17:15:22 +0000 " Anyone have luck getting laticoma to bloom?" Hi Jim: Nerine laticoma along with several other species flower regularly here. We can grow citrus of several kinds that produce abundant crops provided they are protected from southern (cold) winds. This to give an idea of the conditions we enjoy. Say zone 9 in winter and zone 10 in spring/summer/autumn. N. laticoma bulbs are in gallon (4 litres) black plastic pots. The mix is gritty and we do not repot for several years. In winter they receive occasional rains and the foliage disappear completely then. As for frost, there are many slight frosts (down to -3 C) but day temperatures are mostly above 10 C. This species do not seem to be fussy about desert conditions. It flowers in the big late summer flush along with krigei, undulata, huttoniae, filifolia, filamentosa, angulata, masoniorum, bowdenii, etc. Best regards Alberto _________________________________________________________________ Disfrutá los mejores contenidos en MSN Video. http://video.msn.com/?mkt=es-xl From jglatt@hughes.net Mon Jan 5 12:34:41 2009 Message-Id: <496244A9.7080708@hughes.net> From: Judy Glattstein Subject: OT: Cracking Macadamia Nuts Date: Mon, 05 Jan 2009 12:34:33 -0500 This happened years and years ago. A friend back in Connecticut had neighbors who visited Hawaii and came back with some in-the-shell macadamia nuts. Martin, the husband, was an engineer who adored this sort of challenge. He built a hydraulic macadamia nut cracker. Two levers, one for coarse and the other for fine adjustment. Stroke, stroke, stroke on the coarse lever brought the piston down to the nutshell, then stroke as needed on the fine adjustment to crack the shell and free up the rich oily nut. The only problem was that macadamia nuts in the shell are unobtainable in Connecticut and the only value of Martin's contrivance was to entertain people with a demonstration. Eventually they were down to a few rancid nuts, but they could still be used to demonstrate the unique hydraulic macadamia nut cracker. My brother once told me that cashews come in clusters, surrounded by a very thick hard shell. And that every year people are killed by falling clusters of cashews in the shell. Makes my New Jersey black walnuts seem picayune. Judy From othonna@gmail.com Mon Jan 5 12:34:45 2009 Message-Id: <8e8da5260901050934ncbaeaa3sb134147da76ab862@mail.gmail.com> From: Hannon Subject: [IBSMEMBERS] Namibian Bulbs Date: Mon, 5 Jan 2009 09:34:44 -0800 Jim, I finally flowered N. laticoma after 10-11 years from seed in 2007, just one bulb out of several. I would echo exactly what Alberto said as to culture, except for "regularly flowering". In Los Angeles my bulbs grow in half day full sun and still have some green leaves even now; they are protected from rain all winter. The flowers are amazing and fortunately it is, in this instance at least, self-fertile (perhaps even autogamous or self-fertilizing). Dylan From janemcgary@earthlink.net Mon Jan 5 12:44:05 2009 Message-Id: From: Jane McGary Subject: Question about pest mammals and bulbs Date: Mon, 05 Jan 2009 09:43:49 -0800 Doug wrote about his disappearing daffodils, That could be, but they are on our property at 6000 ft. alt. But we >do not live there year round. Possibly Doug is trying to grow varieties that are not very winter-hardy? Does the property have reliable snow cover, or could the plants just be dying from freezing and thawing? Not all kinds of daffodil species and hybrids are equally cold-hardy. Jane McGary From HHeaven77@aol.com Mon Jan 5 14:55:26 2009 Message-Id: <8CB3D86A4BCD1BA-BB8-246@WEBMAIL-DG14.sim.aol.com> From: hheaven77@aol.com Subject: [IBSMEMBERS] Namibian Bulbs Date: Mon, 05 Jan 2009 14:55:07 -0500 Does anyone have sources to purchase these Namibian bulbs? C.G. Phoenix, AZ -----Original Message----- From: Alberto Castillo To: Pacific Bulb Society Sent: Mon, 5 Jan 2009 10:15 am Subject: Re: [pbs] [IBSMEMBERS] Namibian Bulbs Anyone have luck getting laticoma to bloom?" i Jim: Nerine laticoma along with several other species flower regularly here. e can grow citrus of several kinds that produce abundant crops provided they re protected from southern (cold) winds. This to give an idea of the conditions e enjoy. Say zone 9 in winter and zone 10 in spring/summer/autumn. N. laticoma bulbs are in gallon (4 litres) black plastic pots. The mix s gritty and we do not repot for several years. In winter they receive ccasional rains and the foliage disappear completely then. As for frost, there re many slight frosts (down to -3 C) but day temperatures are mostly above 10 . This species do not seem to be fussy about desert conditions. It lowers in the big late summer flush along with krigei, undulata, huttoniae, ilifolia, filamentosa, angulata, masoniorum, bowdenii, etc. est regards lberto ________________________________________________________________ isfrutá los mejores contenidos en MSN Video. ttp://video.msn.com/?mkt=es-xl ______________________________________________ bs mailing list bs@lists.ibiblio.org ttp://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php ttp://pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki From HHeaven77@aol.com Mon Jan 5 15:01:41 2009 Message-Id: <8CB3D8780EC7612-BB8-2C5@WEBMAIL-DG14.sim.aol.com> From: hheaven77@aol.com Subject: OT: Cracking Macadamia Nuts Date: Mon, 05 Jan 2009 15:01:17 -0500 Many coconut palms have been removed from the Hawaiian landscape due to cars, roofs?and people getting hit by falling coconuts.? The majestic stands of trees (if you can find them) will surely have many "Warning" signs around them warning of hazards of getting hit.? The Hawaiian government is now encouraging replanting of the palms but it doesn't seem there are many interested (maybe a liability issue?). Celeste -----Original Message----- From: Judy Glattstein To: pbs@lists.ibiblio.org Sent: Mon, 5 Jan 2009 10:34 am Subject: [pbs] OT: Cracking Macadamia Nuts This happened years and years ago. A friend back in Connecticut had neighbors who visited Hawaii and came back with some in-the-shell macadamia nuts. Martin, the husband, was an engineer who adored this sort of challenge. He built a hydraulic macadamia nut cracker. Two levers, one for coarse and the other for fine adjustment. Stroke, stroke, stroke on the coarse lever brought the piston down to the nutshell, then stroke as needed on the fine adjustment to crack the shell and free up the rich oily nut. The only problem was that macadamia nuts in the shell are unobtainable in Connecticut and the only value of Martin's contrivance was to entertain people with a demonstration. Eventually they were down to a few rancid nuts, but they could still be used to demonstrate the unique hydraulic macadamia nut cracker. My brother once told me that cashews come in clusters, surrounded by a very thick hard shell. And that every year people are killed by falling clusters of cashews in the shell. Makes my New Jersey black walnuts seem picayune. Judy _______________________________________________ pbs mailing list pbs@lists.ibiblio.org http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php http://pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki From mepazblanco@gmail.com Mon Jan 5 15:06:18 2009 Message-Id: <3c9070e50901051206v598f5527k20fc2edba4684780@mail.gmail.com> From: "Maria Eugenia Paz Blanco" Subject: OT: Cracking Macadamia Nuts Date: Mon, 5 Jan 2009 15:06:17 -0500 Hello, have you ever try with a Tongue & Groove Pliers, it is not so sofisticated but it works, at least it did for me, we use to eat them for Christmas back in Argentina, they are delicious. They are great inside of panetone. Maria Eugenia Paz Blanco Vero Beach, Fl 9b. 2009/1/5 Judy Glattstein > This happened years and years ago. A friend back in Connecticut had > neighbors who visited Hawaii and came back with some in-the-shell > macadamia nuts. Martin, the husband, was an engineer who adored this > sort of challenge. He built a hydraulic macadamia nut cracker. Two > levers, one for coarse and the other for fine adjustment. Stroke, > stroke, stroke on the coarse lever brought the piston down to the > nutshell, then stroke as needed on the fine adjustment to crack the > shell and free up the rich oily nut. > > The only problem was that macadamia nuts in the shell are unobtainable > in Connecticut and the only value of Martin's contrivance was to > entertain people with a demonstration. Eventually they were down to a > few rancid nuts, but they could still be used to demonstrate the unique > hydraulic macadamia nut cracker. > > My brother once told me that cashews come in clusters, surrounded by a > very thick hard shell. And that every year people are killed by falling > clusters of cashews in the shell. > > Makes my New Jersey black walnuts seem picayune. > > Judy > _______________________________________________ > pbs mailing list > pbs@lists.ibiblio.org > http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php > http://pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki > -- Maria Eugenia Paz Blanco From bonaventure@optonline.net Mon Jan 5 15:20:11 2009 Message-Id: From: bonaventure@optonline.net Subject: Thrifty-Sorb Date: Mon, 05 Jan 2009 20:19:21 +0000 (GMT) Anyone have any success using soaked, washed and screened Thrifty-Sorb, www.moltan.com, as a medium or media component? I picked up a 40lb bag at a local automotive parts store for only $7! After washing through a waterlily basket, Cypripediums sit happily in the pure stuff with dormant bud just exposed in pots and a basket outdoors. I'm thinking of mixing it with Cactus/Palm/Citrus potting soil for a potted Arisaema mix. Bonaventure Magrys New Jersey From jshields@indy.net Mon Jan 5 15:26:46 2009 Message-Id: <5.1.0.14.2.20090105131835.0328feb0@pop.indy.net> From: "J.E. Shields" Subject: [IBSMEMBERS] Namibian Bulbs Date: Mon, 05 Jan 2009 15:27:38 -0500 Hi Dylan and Alberto, Thank you both for your comments. Maybe my laticoma bulbs are just not old enough yet. All of them came to me as small bulbs in 2000. I'll try to be patient. Regards, Jim Shields in central Indiana (USA) At 09:34 AM 1/5/2009 -0800, you wrote: >Jim, > >I finally flowered N. laticoma after 10-11 years from seed in 2007, >just one bulb out of several. I would echo exactly what Alberto said >as to culture, except for "regularly flowering". In Los Angeles my >bulbs grow in half day full sun and still have some green leaves even >now; they are protected from rain all winter. The flowers are amazing >and fortunately it is, in this instance at least, self-fertile >(perhaps even autogamous or self-fertilizing). > >Dylan >_______________________________________________ >pbs mailing list >pbs@lists.ibiblio.org >http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php >http://pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki ************************************************* Jim Shields USDA Zone 5 Shields Gardens, Ltd. P.O. Box 92 WWW: http://www.shieldsgardens.com/ Westfield, Indiana 46074, USA Tel. ++1-317-867-3344 or toll-free 1-866-449-3344 in USA From ezeizabotgard@hotmail.com Mon Jan 5 15:31:38 2009 Message-Id: From: Alberto Castillo Subject: [IBSMEMBERS] Namibian Bulbs Date: Mon, 5 Jan 2009 20:31:37 +0000 Hi Jim: I have to check the data but it seems they also originated in PBS. They are in full sun all day long, set seed in abundance as Dylan said. Foliar fertilized twice a month while green. Foliage is very broad, attractive. Best Alberto _________________________________________________________________ ¡Subí, compartí y comentá tus fotos con Windows Live® Fotos! http://photos.live.com/ From leo@possi.org Mon Jan 5 16:39:32 2009 Message-Id: From: "Leo A. Martin" Subject: Macadamia nuts Date: Mon, 5 Jan 2009 13:39:30 -0800 (PST) There are a few fruiting macadamia trees here in Phoenix. I ate some this fall at a meeting of our local chapter of the California Rare Fruit Growers. {Geophyte content alert} There are several members of Proteaceae (the family including Macadamia) with lignotubers, which are enlarged woody subterranean root/stem complexes that survive brush fires which burn off the tops. Quite a few Myrtaceae native to Australia and environs have this adaptation as well (think Eucalyptus.) If I can get a good photo of it, a friend here has a Eucalyptus growing with the lignotuber exposed. Another family of bulbs for the wiki! Leo Martin Phoenix Arizona USA From leo@possi.org Mon Jan 5 16:53:51 2009 Message-Id: From: "Leo A. Martin" Subject: Headbangers Date: Mon, 5 Jan 2009 13:53:49 -0800 (PST) Judy wrote > My brother once told me that cashews come in clusters, surrounded by a > very thick hard shell. And that every year people are killed by falling > clusters of cashews in the shell. Not cashews - Perhaps Brazil nuts (Bertholletia excelsa, family Lecythidaceae, which I'd never heard of until I just looked it up) or what is sometimes called Malabar chestnut, Pachira aquatica, which is in family Bombacaceae (or Malvaceae if it's been transferred.) Both have very large fruits full of many nuts. Brazil nut fruits are larger and very woody. Or members of genus Araucaria, like the monkey puzzle tree and bunya bunya, some of which have enormous cones. Cashews, family Anacardiaceae along with mango, poison ivy, sumac, and the elephant trees from Baja California, Pachycormus discolor) are single, not-very-large tropical fruits. The nut is born singly on the blossom end of the fruit. The fruit is commonly pressed into juice in Brazil. Leo Martin Phoenix Arizona USA From leo@possi.org Mon Jan 5 16:55:55 2009 Message-Id: From: "Leo A. Martin" Subject: leaves composted versus coir Date: Mon, 5 Jan 2009 13:55:54 -0800 (PST) The city of Prescott, Arizona (our former territorial capital, 1864) collects yard waste, takes it to the town dump, shreds it, and makes it available to any residents who wish to carry off the mulch. Leo Martin Phoenix Arizona USA From jglatt@hughes.net Mon Jan 5 18:39:07 2009 Message-Id: <49629A08.6030602@hughes.net> From: Judy Glattstein Subject: OT: Not Cashews, Should Have Been Brazil Nuts Date: Mon, 05 Jan 2009 18:38:48 -0500 My oops. It is Brazil nuts (another nut not so easy to crack) that grows in lethal hard shelled clusters. I better get back to bulbs. Judy From eagle85@flash.net Mon Jan 5 18:53:11 2009 Message-Id: <20AD6AB5-6C43-4B2C-B947-85797508587A@flash.net> From: Douglas Westfall Subject: leaves composted versus coir Date: Mon, 5 Jan 2009 15:53:06 -0800 Great idea! I wish that many other cities had the idea and the "carry thru" Doug From dells@voicenet.com Mon Jan 5 19:21:49 2009 Message-Id: From: "Dell Sherk" Subject: Pacific BX 194 Date: Mon, 5 Jan 2009 19:21:28 -0500 Dear All, The items listed below have been donated by our members to be shared. If you are interested in obtaining some of them, please email me PRIVATELY at . Include "BX 194" in the subject line. Specify the NUMBERS of the items which you would like; do not specify quantities. It is a good idea to include your snail mail address, too, in case I don't already have it. Availability is based on a first come, first served system. When you receive your seeds/bulbs you will find, included with them, a statement of how much money (usually $2.00/item) (cash, check, or Pay Pal to ; no money orders, please) you should send the PBS treasurer to defray our costs for packing and first-class, priority-mail, or international postage. PLEASE NOTE: NEW POSTAL-RATE SCHEMES NECESSITATE OUR PLACING A SURCHARGE ON EACH ORDER FROM PBS BX OFFERINGS. Some of you are members of the online PBS discussion forum but are not members of the Pacific Bulb Society. THIS BX OFFERING IS AVAILABLE ONLY TO MEMBERS OF THE PBS. Consider joining the PBS so that you can take advantage of future offers such as this. Go to our website: http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org .... If you would like to donate seeds or bulbs/corms to the PBS,(Donors will receive credit on the BX for the cost of postage for their donations.), please send CLEAN, clearly labeled material to: Dell Sherk 6832 Phillips Mill Rd. New Hope, PA, 18938 USA I WILL REPLY TO YOU WITHIN 24 HRS OF MY RECEIPT OF YOUR ORDER. IF YOU DO NOT HEAR FROM ME, TRY AGAIN !! From Angelo Porcelli: 1. Seed of Pancratium maritimum 2. Seed of Amaryllis belladonna, mixed colours (white, dark pink, Calabria, Kimberley) except the normal pink (pure species) From Mary Sue Ittner: SEEDS: 3. Nerine hybrid, pink 4. Calydorea amabilis 5. Gladiolus carmineus 6. Triteleia clementina 7. Small corms of Moraea tripetala From Cynthia Mueller: 8. Seed of pink Rhodophiala, probably R. bifida. Good grower, pink flowers. Sets see at least when in proximity to other Rhodophialas. May also have some seeds of campact, dark red form. 9. Seed of Rhodophiala, probably R. bifida. Very compact, several stalks, rapid multiplier (compared to usual) sets many seeds. Color darker garnet than usual. May have some pinks, due to accident on the kitchen table . . . 10. Seed of Hesperaloe campanulata. Several times larger than the usual coral-colored hesperaloe. With several 5'- 6'long, branching spikes that last from late spring to frost in C. Texas. Flowers are coral shading to creamy white. Hummingbirds. Good xeric plant when established. From Alberto Castillo: 11. Small bulbs of Allium canadense 12. Seeds of Freesia laxa, red and white form 13. Seeds of Freesia alba, fine form From Mark Mazer: Clivia seed "from last season's undisciplined pollen dabbing." Very limited supplies. $1.00/single seed of each. Three-seed limit per customer. (Pod parent identity): 14. C. miniata var. citrina (my pale yellow) 15. C. miniata var' citrina (my best yellow) 16. C. (Select Chubb Peach F3) x ('Chubb Millenium Peach') 17. C. (yellow miniata, big hear with highly recurved petals) x (Col. Pittman yellow) 18. C. (pastel orange peach pink to salmon) x yellow Thank you Angelo, Mary Sue, Cynthia, Alberto, and Mark !! Best wishes, Dell Dell Sherk, Pacific BX From oothal@hotmail.com Mon Jan 5 19:25:40 2009 Message-Id: From: Justin Smith Subject: Thrifty-Sorb Date: Mon, 5 Jan 2009 18:25:38 -0600 > > Anyone have any success using soaked, washed and screened Thrifty-Sorb, www.moltan.com, as a medium or media component? I picked up a 40lb bag at a local automotive parts store for only $7! > Some time back I got a bag of a "fired clay" product from O'rielly auto parts. I don't remember if it was thrifty-sorb or another similar brand name. I used it just to see how it would work. The brand I used held together when wet but it was not as stable over time as I wanted. There was another product at the time that I looked at on the internet. It was substrate for planted aquariums but it was really expensive. I think it was Florite. I wanted to change to pumice but that was not available here so i got some lava rock from Lowe's and crushed it up into smaller pieces. The aquarium biz has some really nice course sand but they are very expensive. Justin Woodville, TX 8b/9a _________________________________________________________________ Life on your PC is safer, easier, and more enjoyable with Windows Vista®. http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/127032870/direct/01/ From msittner@mcn.org Mon Jan 5 20:37:32 2009 Message-Id: <5.2.0.9.2.20090105173336.039a8598@mail.mcn.org> From: Mary Sue Ittner Subject: Information on Pacific BX 194 Date: Mon, 05 Jan 2009 17:36:13 -0800 I sent this information to Dell earlier about my contributions. Sorry about the Moraea tripetala. I lost track of it. The Nerine seed was starting to sprout when I sent it on to Dell awhile ago. Mary Sue Corms: Moraea tripetala cormlets--This winter growing Moraea lasts for longer than a few hours and is one that I've found more reliable than some Seed: Triteleia clementina-- Southern California island species I was given seed of when I first joined the Pacific Bulb Society Calydorea amabilis -- summer-fall blooming, short lived flowers, but produces them over a long time Gladiolus carmineus-- pink flowers in the fall before the leaves appear, low, quite charming, grows naturally within view of the ocean so probably not very hardy. It is seeding itself about in my northern California coastal garden Nerine sarniensis hybrid seed--these are from a second generation group of plants grown from seed from the rescue plants of a number of years ago. They are pink, but at times have kind of a purple tinge to them. Mary Sue From arnold@nj.rr.com Mon Jan 5 21:34:21 2009 Message-Id: <4962C2D3.8050607@nj.rr.com> From: Arnold Trachtenberg Subject: Headbangers Date: Mon, 05 Jan 2009 21:32:51 -0500 I've seen Brazil nuts growing along the Amazon River just outside of Manaus. At least two hundred feet tall and each 'cannon ball' is packed with sixteen nuts. The large balls are practically impossible to open by hand. Beware the tourist who walks under a tree that drops a nut. Lets see 32 feet per second squared... Arnold From totototo@telus.net Mon Jan 5 22:07:57 2009 Message-Id: <49625A8A.2066.1058F@localhost> From: totototo@telus.net Subject: Thrifty-Sorb Date: Mon, 5 Jan 2009 19:07:54 -0800 On 5 Jan 2009, at 18:25, Justin Smith wrote: > I wanted to change to pumice but that was not available here so i got some > lava rock from Lowe's and crushed it up into smaller pieces. The lava rock that's widely sold as a garden top dressing is nothing like real pumice. Pumice is porous, solidified rock foam, and quite water retentive, whereas the lava rock isn't water retentive to any great degree. This charming fact means that you can plan next summer's vacation now: plan on visiting Crater Lake in southern Oregon. The access road along Annie Creek to the Rim Drive climbs to the caldera rim over enormous deposits of pumice, and along US Highway 97 which runs up the east flank of the Cascades, NE of Crater Lake you go for miles through drift, banks, and hills of pumice thrown out by Mt. Mazama when she lost her temper some 6000-7000 years ago. -- Rodger Whitlock Victoria, British Columbia, Canada Maritime Zone 8, a cool Mediterranean climate on beautiful Vancouver Island http://maps.google.ca/maps?q=48.4676,-123.3262&ll=48.4676,-123.3262&z=14 From faeden4444@sbcglobal.net Mon Jan 5 22:19:19 2009 Message-Id: <799613.67011.qm@web83608.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> From: Marilyn Pekasky Subject: Thrifty-Sorb Date: Mon, 5 Jan 2009 19:19:11 -0800 (PST) And because Crater Lake is a National Park it is ILLEGAL to collect even one little pebble of pumice there no matter how much is in the Park. ________________________________ From: "totototo@telus.net" To: Pacific Bulb Society Sent: Monday, January 5, 2009 7:07:54 PM Subject: Re: [pbs] Thrifty-Sorb On 5 Jan 2009, at 18:25, Justin Smith wrote: > I wanted to change to pumice but that was not available here so i got some > lava rock from Lowe's and crushed it up into smaller pieces. The lava rock that's widely sold as a garden top dressing is nothing like real pumice. Pumice is porous, solidified rock foam, and quite water retentive, whereas the lava rock isn't water retentive to any great degree. This charming fact means that you can plan next summer's vacation now: plan on visiting Crater Lake in southern Oregon. The access road along Annie Creek to the Rim Drive climbs to the caldera rim over enormous deposits of pumice, and along US Highway 97 which runs up the east flank of the Cascades, NE of Crater Lake you go for miles through drift, banks, and hills of pumice thrown out by Mt. Mazama when she lost her temper some 6000-7000 years ago. -- Rodger Whitlock Victoria, British Columbia, Canada Maritime Zone 8, a cool Mediterranean climate on beautiful Vancouver Island http://maps.google.ca/maps?q=48.4676,-123.3262&ll=48.4676,-123.3262&z=14 _______________________________________________ pbs mailing list pbs@lists.ibiblio.org http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php http://pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki From janemcgary@earthlink.net Tue Jan 6 17:06:15 2009 Message-Id: From: Jane McGary Subject: Thrifty-Sorb Date: Tue, 06 Jan 2009 14:01:49 -0800 Rodger wrote, >The lava rock that's widely sold as a garden top dressing is nothing >like real >pumice. Pumice is porous, solidified rock foam, and quite water retentive, >whereas the lava rock isn't water retentive to any great degree. > >This charming fact means that you can plan next summer's vacation >now: plan on >visiting Crater Lake in southern Oregon. The access road along Annie Creek to >the Rim Drive climbs to the caldera rim over enormous deposits of pumice, and >along US Highway 97 which runs up the east flank of the Cascades, NE >of Crater >Lake you go for miles through drift, banks, and hills of pumice thrown out by >Mt. Mazama when she lost her temper some 6000-7000 years ago. True: the mulch is what we call "scoria" and it's better as a top dressing than a soil component. However, you don't have to get your pumice from nature (if you're right near Crater Lake, it's a national park and it's illegal to take rock, anyway); you can just stop at Oregon Decorative Rock near I-5 in Portland and buy it in 60-pound sacks, nicely crushed. Jane McGary From dkramb@badbear.com Tue Jan 6 22:18:32 2009 Message-Id: <49641F06.9090109@badbear.com> From: Dennis Kramb Subject: New member Date: Tue, 06 Jan 2009 22:18:30 -0500 Welcome aboard! You seem like a devout plant lover! And it's nice to know I'm not the only crazy fool growing cacti in this part of the country. :-) (well, i'm assuming yours are outdoors like mine?) Dennis in Cincinnati (who is also an American Iris Society member) Pam Braun wrote: > My name is Pam Braun, and I am an active member of National Garden Clubs, Inc. and the TN Federation of Garden Clubs. This year I will become a Flower Show School Instructor for N.G.C., Inc. in order to teach flower show judges horticulture. I am also a long time member of The Gesneriad Society and Gesneriad judge. Besides that I am a member of the Middle TN Daffodil Society, American Iris Society, American Begonia Society, American Ivy Society, American Hosta Society, and the Cactus & Succulent Society of America. I enjoy growing many different plants, but specialize in growing many tuberous plants. I also enjoy floral design work and am a member of the National Flower Arrangers and the Creative Floral Arrangers of America. > Came across the PBS web site by accident, so decided it might be nice to join. Sounds like a good group and a chance to learn more. Pam Braun > _______________________________________________ > pbs mailing list > pbs@lists.ibiblio.org > http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php > http://pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki > > > From totototo@telus.net Wed Jan 7 00:26:27 2009 Message-Id: <4963CC80.472.EA1ABD@localhost> From: totototo@telus.net Subject: Thrifty-Sorb Date: Tue, 6 Jan 2009 21:26:24 -0800 On 5 Jan 2009, at 19:19, Marilyn Pekasky wrote: > And because Crater Lake is a National Park it is ILLEGAL to collect even one > little pebble of pumice there no matter how much is in the Park. Quite right! Besides, it's impractical to cart away a useful quantity of pumice unless you own a big pickup or dumptruck. A suitcase simply won't suffice. Those desirous of samples should keep their hands in their pockets until they are out of the park; at any rate there is probably more Mazama pumice outside the park than in. It is interesting to note that on the road up Annie Creek, the various outbarfings from Mazama are mixed with quite coarse material. Down by Hwy 97 at some distance from the caldera, the pumice particles are smaller and more uniform, free of the hard bits of rock you see along Annie Creek. Understandable, given that the eruptive cloud was carried by the prevailing westerlies away from the caldera, the heavier and coarser particles reaching ground first. Given President Bush's Christmastime changes to regulations about mining in National Parks, let none of us be surprised, however, if the Giant Humongous Unstoppable Pumice Extraction and Landscape Destruction Company, Inc. Pty. LLC announces that in cooperation with Walmart they'll be selling Mazama pumice for $10 a cubic yard as cat litter. [The forgoing paragraph is tainted by bitter irony.] I've had horticultural pumice from two sources, one in Washington State and one in the Vancouver area. The Washington material (quarried I know not where) is a lovely tawny-buff color; the Vancouver material (also quarried I know not where) is a rather ugly bone white. The geologists can distinguish pumice not only by its source, but also which eruption belched it forth. They've found Mazama ejecta over an astonishing area. Best reference for those curious is "Fire Mountains of the West" by Stephen L. Harris. Thank you all for your attention; now back to matters bulbous. -- Rodger Whitlock Victoria, British Columbia, Canada Maritime Zone 8, a cool Mediterranean climate on beautiful Vancouver Island http://maps.google.ca/maps?q=48.4676,-123.3262&ll=48.4676,-123.3262&z=14 From braun3@earthlink.net Wed Jan 7 10:13:22 2009 Message-Id: From: "Pam Braun" Subject: New member Date: Wed, 7 Jan 2009 09:13:04 -0600 No, I don't grow my cactus outside, as I don't believe mine are hardy. Of course, we have the native Opuntia, but I don't grow it because I had a bad experience with it as a kid walking barefoot. I just take my cactus and succulents outside to the hot, sunny deck for six months out of the year and bring them inside to sunny windows for the winter where I don't fool with them or rarely water them. What with self-watering in summer and them going through dormancy in winter, my plants pretty much take care of themselves. Pam Braun ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dennis Kramb" To: "Pacific Bulb Society" Sent: Tuesday, January 06, 2009 9:18 PM Subject: Re: [pbs] New member > Welcome aboard! You seem like a devout plant lover! And it's nice to > know I'm not the only crazy fool growing cacti in this part of the > country. :-) (well, i'm assuming yours are outdoors like mine?) > > Dennis in Cincinnati (who is also an American Iris Society member) > > > > Pam Braun wrote: >> My name is Pam Braun, and I am an active member of National Garden Clubs, >> Inc. and the TN Federation of Garden Clubs. This year I will become a >> Flower Show School Instructor for N.G.C., Inc. in order to teach flower >> show judges horticulture. I am also a long time member of The Gesneriad >> Society and Gesneriad judge. Besides that I am a member of the Middle TN >> Daffodil Society, American Iris Society, American Begonia Society, >> American Ivy Society, American Hosta Society, and the Cactus & Succulent >> Society of America. I enjoy growing many different plants, but specialize >> in growing many tuberous plants. I also enjoy floral design work and am a >> member of the National Flower Arrangers and the Creative Floral Arrangers >> of America. >> Came across the PBS web site by accident, so decided it might be nice >> to join. Sounds like a good group and a chance to learn more. Pam Braun >> _______________________________________________ >> pbs mailing list >> pbs@lists.ibiblio.org >> http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php >> http://pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki >> >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > pbs mailing list > pbs@lists.ibiblio.org > http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php > http://pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com Version: 8.0.176 / Virus Database: 270.10.4/1880 - Release Date: 1/7/2009 8:49 AM From jshields@indy.net Wed Jan 7 10:43:56 2009 Message-Id: <5.1.0.14.2.20090107102629.01d1eeb0@pop.indy.net> From: "J.E. Shields" Subject: OT: Cacti. Was: New member Date: Wed, 07 Jan 2009 10:44:43 -0500 Hi Pam and Dennis, Pam, welcome to PBS. It's a great group. OT Cacti: Dennis, I grow some cacti outdoors here in central Indiana. I have a feral Opuntia (not humifusa, maybe phaeacantha) from northern Indiana, some O. phaeacantha from my niece's neighborhood in Centennial, Colorado (a suburb southwest of Denver), and some tiny little things from High Country Gardens. The tiny ones include Escobaria sandbergii, Escobaria sneedii, Escobaria vivipara bisbeana, Opuntia whipplei, Opuntia viridiflora, Pediocactus simpsonii, Echinocereus coccineus, Echinocereus reichenbachii caespitosus, and Echinocereus viridiflorus. The latter are currently undergoing their first winter outdoors in Indiana. This is therefor an experiment, not a gardening recommendation. There are some pretty hardy cacti around. Regards, Jim Shields in central Indiana (USA) At 09:13 AM 1/7/2009 -0600, you wrote: >No, I don't grow my cactus outside, as I don't believe mine are hardy. ************************************************* Jim Shields USDA Zone 5 Shields Gardens, Ltd. P.O. Box 92 WWW: http://www.shieldsgardens.com/ Westfield, Indiana 46074, USA Tel. ++1-317-867-3344 or toll-free 1-866-449-3344 in USA From markmazerandfm13@earthlink.net Wed Jan 7 11:06:40 2009 Message-Id: <24980131.1231344399571.JavaMail.root@elwamui-milano.atl.sa.earthlink.net> From: Mark Mazer Subject: OT: Hardy Cacti. Was: New member Date: Wed, 7 Jan 2009 11:06:39 -0500 (GMT-05:00) > >There are some pretty hardy cacti around. > For anyone interested in growing winter hardy cacti, I suggest buying "Growing Winter Hardy Cacti in Cold/Wet Climate Conditions" by John Spain. John Spain has grown winter hardy cacti since 1965. I believe that his book can be ordered from him directly by mailing $15 (includes shipping to USA & Canada) to: John Spain, 69 Bayberry Road, Middlebury, CT 06762 Mark Mazer Hertford, North Carolina USA From oothal@hotmail.com Wed Jan 7 13:07:03 2009 Message-Id: From: Justin Smith Subject: Question on Photography of our flowering bulbs Date: Wed, 7 Jan 2009 12:07:01 -0600 Hiya, My brother has set me up with items needed to take macro pics of any flowers that I will eventually get. I was wondering about what everyone things is the ethical limit (if there is one) as to what one has to do to "clean up" the flowers for photos. Like for example you have your prize bulb blooming and you go to take a pic and you find dirt or some other unwanted item on a leaf or on the bloom. Should you clean it up before pics? Does the same hold true for in situ bulbs out in the wild? You walk five miles to find a new species of bulb but the flower has a stick over it. Can you move it or should you move it? I realize there is no one set rule but I would hate to take lots of pics only to have my hard work discounted because I had moved a stick or clean dirt off of a leaf. The standards are most likely different for scientific research and just a pic to look at. I guess I am just trying to figure out the difference between the two. Or if there is any difference at all. Justin Woodville, TX 8b/9a _________________________________________________________________ Windows LiveTM: Keep your life in sync. http://windowslive.com/explore?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_t1_allup_explore_012009 From voltaire@islandnet.com Wed Jan 7 14:21:28 2009 Message-Id: From: Diane Whitehead Subject: Question on Photography of our flowering bulbs Date: Wed, 7 Jan 2009 11:20:42 -0800 Justin, You can take two pictures: ungroomed and groomed. I take a picture of the whole scene to show the terrain, then a bit closer to show the type of vegetation, closer again to show the entire target plant, then various close-ups of flowers, leaves, any identifying aspects (which differ for each kind of plant). I groom the site for some of the close-up photos, but some of the messy stuff is important for understanding the plant you are photographing. For example, a pine cone that has fallen next to it gives important information about where the plant grows. Diane Whitehead From janemcgary@earthlink.net Wed Jan 7 15:41:16 2009 Message-Id: From: Jane McGary Subject: Question on Photography of our flowering bulbs Date: Wed, 07 Jan 2009 12:40:23 -0800 Because I deal with a lot of plant photos in the journal and books I edit, I think I can advise Justin although I'm not a professional photographer myself. He wrote: >Hiya, > >My brother has set me up with items needed to take macro pics of any >flowers that I will eventually get. Often macro photos are not as useful for publication as photos that show more than just the flower. Macros can be very artistic, but readers tend to like photos that also show the leaves and some background so they get an idea of what the plant may look like in the garden or in nature. > >I was wondering about what everyone things is the ethical limit (if >there is one) as to what one has to do to "clean up" the flowers for photos. You should always remove debris that is impeding the view of the plant, provided you can do so without damaging other valuable plants or damaging the object itself. A blade of grass may not look to you like an obstacle when you see it in reality, but when it shows up in the photo, it will make the difference between a prize-winning or publishable photo and one that the editor sadly rejects. Another problem that often occurs with garden photos is that the photographer doesn't consider what's in the background. It may be an unattractive building (or even a perfectly normal-looking house), cars, power lines, the kids' wading pool, and so on. You should always try to keep unrelated and manufactured objects out of your plant photos, unless they are ornamental and integral to the garden. If photographing a plant at the roadside, keep the road out of the frame. Another thing that bothers me is getting a digital photo that has been color-enhanced so that the flower appears to be a color that it never displays in nature. You see this in commercial catalogs a lot (crocuses the color of Tecophilaea cyanocrocus, e.g.), but a reader or editor who has seen the actual plant will know what you've been up to. When I photograph plants in pots, I sometimes lift the pots and then sink them in a sand pile near my bulb frames so they will be isolated and look more like they're in the ground. You can improve the lighting this way too. Professional plant photographers use big reflectors to improve the lighting. I run an annual photo contest for the Rock Garden Quarterly, with different judges from year to year, and the different people tend to have varying standards and pet peeves. However, it has given me some perspective on what works and what doesn't, and has also improved my own very amateur photography. (The digital SLR is what improved it the most, though.) Jane McGary From rakkasanbarnett@gmail.com Wed Jan 7 16:04:18 2009 Message-Id: From: "Donald Barnett" Subject: OT: Cacti. Was: New member Date: Wed, 7 Jan 2009 13:04:15 -0800 Hello, I lived in Pueblo, CO a Zone 5b. I had well my parents have now over 217 species of cactus growing outside without protection. It narrows down to selection of species locations. There are many many species that are cold hardy. How much rain does indiana get annually? LOW Moisture is the key to growing cacti. RAKKASAN On Wed, Jan 7, 2009 at 7:44 AM, J.E. Shields wrote: > Hi Pam and Dennis, > > Pam, welcome to PBS. It's a great group. > > OT Cacti: Dennis, I grow some cacti outdoors here in central Indiana. I > have a feral Opuntia (not humifusa, maybe phaeacantha) from northern > Indiana, some O. phaeacantha from my niece's neighborhood in Centennial, > Colorado (a suburb southwest of Denver), and some tiny little things from > High Country Gardens. > > The tiny ones include Escobaria sandbergii, Escobaria sneedii, Escobaria > vivipara bisbeana, Opuntia whipplei, Opuntia viridiflora, Pediocactus > simpsonii, Echinocereus coccineus, Echinocereus reichenbachii caespitosus, > and Echinocereus viridiflorus. The latter are currently undergoing their > first winter outdoors in Indiana. This is therefor an experiment, not a > gardening recommendation. > > There are some pretty hardy cacti around. > > Regards, > Jim Shields > in central Indiana (USA) > > > At 09:13 AM 1/7/2009 -0600, you wrote: > >No, I don't grow my cactus outside, as I don't believe mine are hardy. > > > > ************************************************* > Jim Shields USDA Zone 5 Shields Gardens, Ltd. > P.O. Box 92 WWW: http://www.shieldsgardens.com/ > Westfield, Indiana 46074, USA > Tel. ++1-317-867-3344 or toll-free 1-866-449-3344 in USA > > > _______________________________________________ > pbs mailing list > pbs@lists.ibiblio.org > http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php > http://pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki > From info@auchgourishbotanicgarden.org Wed Jan 7 16:13:50 2009 Message-Id: <5AEDE90F4053491CAB24118B3F9465BC@homepc> From: Subject: photography Date: Wed, 7 Jan 2009 21:13:47 -0000 Justin there are about as many theories and advice that you will soon receive, from here or elsewhere and it is really a matter of [a] personal taste, and [b] what is the purpose or end objective intended. Speaking personally, I am undertaking as much photography as possible myself of botanical lily species for a new monograph of Lilies and their Allies. Buying in professional material from suitable sources is one route open to me however many of the lily species and or any subspecies or varietas in question are not generally in cultivation, some are so terribly rare or in two cases so far new to science that I have therefore had to make the effort to deal with them myself. In the matter of extraneous material such as a stick that may spoil the composition I would say remove it, if on the other hand its a fly, bee or butterfly treat that as a bonus. One other objective, other than that of a botanical record, is one whereby you wish to create the best and most attractive composition you can to enter e.g. in a competition therefore your objects are a wee bitty different from mine which is to create a visual botanical record. In either context the over riding caveat, I would suggest, is to do no harm to the plant or its surroundings, the removal of a single twig or fern frond obscuring the composition is probably perfectly OK but there is a view, which I share, that "gardening" around the objective is not best practice and as I type that remark I can FEEL potential opprobrium hurtling its way across North America and the Atlantic Ocean in my direction. Ce la vie. Whatever, enjoy yourself. One useful book which might be of interest, too late to ask for as a Christmas present, is by Alan Detrick, its a Timber Press title which shouldn't be too difficult for you to get. I paid £ 18 for it but I think it is a Can $ 28 and US $ 25 price. Timber press are currently running a sale on both sides of the Atlantic so strike while you can. Regards, Iain -- I am using the free version of SPAMfighter. We are a community of 5.8 million users fighting spam. SPAMfighter has removed 41674 of my spam emails to date. Get the free SPAMfighter here: http://www.spamfighter.com/len The Professional version does not have this message From jglatt@hughes.net Wed Jan 7 17:49:56 2009 Message-Id: <49653195.5010809@hughes.net> From: Judy Glattstein Subject: Cosmetic Cleaning of Plants Date: Wed, 07 Jan 2009 17:49:57 -0500 Hi Justin and All, I've heard this called "parkerizing" after a British photographer notorious for cleaning before releasing the shutter. If you ever wondered why magazine and book illustrations look better than reality, it's because they are. I watched with amazement as a photographer taking pictures of my client's garden for a magazine article cut peony flowers, paper-taped them to thin bamboo canes, and inserted them elsewhere on the plant. This was in order to create an evenly full effect. She also insisted that the window shades on the second floor be pulled to matching extension. Since the windows wouldn't appear in the shot I thought this was excessive . . . I'll move an intruding leaf, blow off a crumb of dirt - things that would distract from the image. But I'll leave a nibbled leaf - that's life. Judy From braun3@earthlink.net Wed Jan 7 18:13:04 2009 Message-Id: <5D87BD9A1972413887F23D58B0FA402C@pamoffice> From: "Pam Braun" Subject: Question on Photography of our flowering bulbs Date: Wed, 7 Jan 2009 17:12:43 -0600 I don't think there is really anything not ethical about removing a stick in the way of getting a good picture. I often remove debris in order to get a good shot. The only thing I would never do is place extra flowers on a plant to make it seem more floriferous. I have seen that lots of times in catalogs. I think the main thing it to show the plant as it actually grows. Plants grown in natural settings can also be photographed to show the viewer what kind of situation they are best grown. Removing a broken limb or other things not vital to the growing situation won't make a difference. When you are doing macro photography, you are not showing the background, and you want the flower to look its best. Removing a stick or two or a dead leaf can be necessary. The same goes for lighting. The use of flash often is needed. As far as photographing a cultivated plant, most photographers use some kind of backdrop, so there is no distraction from the background. That makes only good sense. What you are trying to do is show exactly how the plant looks. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Justin Smith" To: Sent: Wednesday, January 07, 2009 12:07 PM Subject: [pbs] Question on Photography of our flowering bulbs > > Hiya, > > My brother has set me up with items needed to take macro pics of any > flowers that I will eventually get. > > I was wondering about what everyone things is the ethical limit (if there > is one) as to what one has to do to "clean up" the flowers for photos. > > Like for example you have your prize bulb blooming and you go to take a > pic and you find dirt or some other unwanted item on a leaf or on the > bloom. Should you clean it up before pics? Does the same hold true for in > situ bulbs out in the wild? You walk five miles to find a new species of > bulb but the flower has a stick over it. Can you move it or should you > move it? > > I realize there is no one set rule but I would hate to take lots of pics > only to have my hard work discounted because I had moved a stick or clean > dirt off of a leaf. > > The standards are most likely different for scientific research and just a > pic to look at. I guess I am just trying to figure out the difference > between the two. Or if there is any difference at all. > > > Justin > Woodville, TX 8b/9a > > > _________________________________________________________________ > Windows LiveTM: Keep your life in sync. > http://windowslive.com/explore?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_t1_allup_explore_012009 > _______________________________________________ > pbs mailing list > pbs@lists.ibiblio.org > http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php > http://pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com Version: 8.0.176 / Virus Database: 270.10.4/1880 - Release Date: 1/7/2009 8:49 AM From totototo@telus.net Wed Jan 7 19:12:25 2009 Message-Id: <4964D467.29768.5C6E@localhost> From: totototo@telus.net Subject: Question on Photography of our flowering bulbs Date: Wed, 7 Jan 2009 16:12:23 -0800 The best photos demand cleanup of debris and other distractions in the frame. My co-Victorian PBS subscriber, Diane Whitehead, is meticulous in this regard. It's a treat to watch her peer through her view finder and then carefully remove dead leaves and blades of grass and other such before actually taking the photo. In a windy environment, it's perfectly kosher to use a clothespin on a tripod to hold a plant stem steady. In dappled sunlight, a diffuse reflector or even a thin scrim overhead will even out the light and get rid of the pattern of dark and light. A point-click-point-click-point-click approach will produce more pictures, but a lot of them will be distinctly secondrate. Even with the cheapest little digital point-and-shoot camera, there *is* a viewfinder: use it. PS: even those cheap digitals have provision for mounting on a tripod. Get one and use it. -- Rodger Whitlock Victoria, British Columbia, Canada Maritime Zone 8, a cool Mediterranean climate on beautiful Vancouver Island http://maps.google.ca/maps?q=48.4676,-123.3262&ll=48.4676,-123.3262&z=14 From ksayce@willapabay.org Wed Jan 7 20:45:21 2009 Message-Id: <8AA5935E-B8A3-4800-A59F-77EEABCF923C@willapabay.org> From: Kathleen Sayce Subject: Question on Photography of our flowering bulbs Date: Wed, 7 Jan 2009 17:44:49 -0800 There's an art to staging plants for photography. In situ, one needs to balance the natural appearance of the subject plant with good framing to get an image that focuses on that plant's characters. A book I recommend to people for good examples of in situ careful cleaning, twig removal, etc, is Plants of the Lewis & Clark Expedition, by H. Wayne Phillips. These images are all of native species. Wayne uses scissors, pruning clippers, and brushes to clean away stray leaves (stray grass leaves and long conifer needles are especially annoying in otherwise excellent closeups). He often takes 30 minutes to clean up a site around one plant for one final image, then takes 30-50 images with 2-3 cameras. I tend to move faster, and inevitably find the branch, clump of grass, one dead leaf from the tree above on a flower, etc, only when reviewing images later at home. In a yard or greenhouse, it's easy to take shots and then check them on the computer, and go back out to do it better. This is a great personal training practice: take the pictures, study them, figure out how to do them better, and go back out and take them all over again. With potted plants, people clean up just as much as they feel is needed to show the plant at its best, with the added advantage of being able to move the pot for optimal light and viewing angles. Some people use water misters and cloths to polish leaves, prune off dead leaves, etc, all to show the plant off. We look forward to seeing your new images. Kathleen, from the SW Washington Coast, where it's rained 2.4 inches in the past 17 hours, and 4 inches in the past 3 days, with more rain coming. From eciton@alumni.utexas.net Wed Jan 7 20:52:02 2009 Message-Id: From: Monica Swartz Subject: pumice source Date: Wed, 7 Jan 2009 17:52:01 -0800 For those folks in the US looking for pumice, call your local feed store to see if they carry or will order "Dry Stall", the horse bedding product. It's pure crushed pumice and sells for about $10 for a 40lb bag. If you are fussy about the size of the pieces, you will have to sieve it yourself. Don't let them sell you "Stall Dry", it's not the same thing at all! m From scottc@WaveHill.org Thu Jan 8 15:01:33 2009 Message-Id: From: "Canning, Scott" Subject: Dry Stall and Stall Dry Date: Thu, 8 Jan 2009 15:01:31 -0500 I made the mistake of obtaining Stall Dry when I wanted Dry Stall. It is a regrettable mistake-it is volcanic dust used to soak up urine and water (around a horse, of course) . We use pumice at Wave Hill in our propagation mix for cuttings and we used to get Dry Stall from Agway. They don't carry it anymore; now we use 4-quart bags of volcanic pumice from a company called "Glorious Gardens". Unfortunately our source is in the Midwest and the shipping is rather steep, but it is the real thing. Scott Canning Director of Horticulture Wave Hill ~ A Garden and Cultural Center 675 West 252nd Street Bronx, NY 10471 (718) 549-3200 x261 www.wavehill.org From toadlily@olywa.net Thu Jan 8 15:11:10 2009 Message-Id: <49665DFB.1000806@olywa.net> From: Laura & Dave Subject: pumice source Date: Thu, 08 Jan 2009 12:11:39 -0800 An alternate source for pumice is the local landscape supplier; other useful things they often carry are bark, sand and local soil. One of our local suppliers has a price category for home hobbiests of $3.50 per garbage can full (about 32 gallons U.S.) of most things they sell. Many places will sell you a 5 gallon bucket full for a reasonable price. Admittedly, I have to run the pumice through a 1/4 " screen, but then I have two useful sizes to work with. Dave Brastow - Tumwater, Washington (U.S.A.) Where we have a lot less backyard, and a lot more lake than usual. 6 1/2 ' of rain on top of 18" of snow! And not to complain, but when the garage roof leaked for the first time, why did it have to aim at the seed storage bin and fill it with an 1" of water? Guess what I'm doing today! From jimmckenney@jimmckenney.com Thu Jan 8 16:52:58 2009 Message-Id: <000a01c971db$fcf7e210$2f01a8c0@Library> From: "Jim McKenney" Subject: Early winter greetings from Maryland Date: Thu, 8 Jan 2009 16:56:39 -0500 Here’s a little bouquet I picked from the garden yesterday: http://www.jimmckenney.com/jan%20bouquet.htm It also paints a false picture of our winters: it isn't often that the first week of January (when these were picked) offers such a variety of bloom here in zone 7 Montgomery County, Maryland. Shown here are Iris unguicularis, Jamsinum nudiflorum, Helleborus foetidus (and a garden hellebore in bud), Chimonanthus praecox 'Luteus', Hamamelis 'Jelena', H. 'Feuerzauber', Galanthus elwesii and foliage of Arum italicum, Hedera helix, Sarcococca humilis and Danaë racemosa. Camellia japonica is also opening its first blossom, and lots of other items are budded and ready to go in the cold frames. I've got my eye on several groups of the little white-flowered hoop petticoat daffodils which are in advanced bud. Jim McKenney jimmckenney@jimmckenney.com Montgomery County, Maryland, USA, 39.03871º North, 77.09829º West, USDA zone 7 My Virtual Maryland Garden http://www.jimmckenney.com BLOG! http://mcwort.blogspot.com/ Webmaster Potomac Valley Chapter, NARGS Editor PVC Bulletin http://www.pvcnargs.org Webmaster Potomac Lily Society http://www.potomaclilysociety.org From perdy@mts.net Thu Jan 8 17:15:13 2009 Message-Id: <9CB7FC23EF544763925049727F549A0B@DAndersonPC> From: "D Anderson" Subject: Early winter greetings from Maryland Date: Thu, 8 Jan 2009 16:15:03 -0600 Gorgeous bouquet, Jim! Only flowers I have outside are the white ones..lol! :) Donna in cold Winnipeg, Manitoba ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jim McKenney" To: "'Pacific Bulb Society'" Sent: Thursday, January 08, 2009 3:56 PM Subject: [pbs] Early winter greetings from Maryland Here's a little bouquet I picked from the garden yesterday: http://www.jimmckenney.com/jan%20bouquet.htm It also paints a false picture of our winters: it isn't often that the first week of January (when these were picked) offers such a variety of bloom here in zone 7 Montgomery County, Maryland. Shown here are Iris unguicularis, Jamsinum nudiflorum, Helleborus foetidus (and a garden hellebore in bud), Chimonanthus praecox 'Luteus', Hamamelis 'Jelena', H. 'Feuerzauber', Galanthus elwesii and foliage of Arum italicum, Hedera helix, Sarcococca humilis and Danaë racemosa. Camellia japonica is also opening its first blossom, and lots of other items are budded and ready to go in the cold frames. I've got my eye on several groups of the little white-flowered hoop petticoat daffodils which are in advanced bud. Jim McKenney jimmckenney@jimmckenney.com Montgomery County, Maryland, USA, 39.03871º North, 77.09829º West, USDA zone 7 My Virtual Maryland Garden http://www.jimmckenney.com BLOG! http://mcwort.blogspot.com/ Webmaster Potomac Valley Chapter, NARGS Editor PVC Bulletin http://www.pvcnargs.org Webmaster Potomac Lily Society http://www.potomaclilysociety.org _______________________________________________ pbs mailing list pbs@lists.ibiblio.org http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php http://pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki From jimmckenney@jimmckenney.com Thu Jan 8 17:44:30 2009 Message-Id: <000b01c971e3$2faef5c0$2f01a8c0@Library> From: "Jim McKenney" Subject: Early winter greetings from Maryland Date: Thu, 8 Jan 2009 17:48:11 -0500 Donna wrote: " Only flowers I have outside are the white ones..lol!" Don't forget, Donna, in August down here in Maryland we'll be wishing for some of those white ones. Jim McKenney From leo@possi.org Thu Jan 8 19:34:23 2009 Message-Id: <3208ab5a2c47d9030b8b6c9dd49604dc.squirrel@www.possi.org> From: "Leo A. Martin" Subject: Question on Photography of our flowering bulbs Date: Thu, 8 Jan 2009 16:34:21 -0800 (PST) > I was wondering about what everyone things is the ethical limit (if there > is one) as to what one has to do to "clean up" the flowers for photos. What I've seen done by many different plant people who take good photos: > ...dirt or some other unwanted item on a leaf or on the > bloom. [on a plant in your collection] > Should you clean it up before pics? Yes, by all means. > Does the same hold true for in > situ bulbs out in the wild? Yes, by all means. I first take a photo as I found it but most plant people clean first, then snap. > You walk five miles to find a new species of > bulb but the flower has a stick over it. Most people will move the stick, pull out the weeds near the plant, and many people I know would chop down shrubs and even tree branches blocking the light. I don't do this last part myself but I have seen it done by many other people. But if you look at photos taken in forests and jungles published in many different scientific periodicals, it is clear many published field photographers remove lots and lots of vegetation before taking photographs, and this usually involves machetes and/or axes. You're trying to make the plants look good and display them so viewers can get a good idea of how your subject looks. It is also fair to mist lightly, put something of a contrasting color in the background you leave out-of-focus, and use flash, reflectors, or other artificial lighting. Misting is especially useful for plants against a similarly-colored background. And another thing many people forget... don't just take dozens of close-ups. Take complete landscape scans of the surroundings so people can get an idea of the surrounding ecosystem. Back fifty steps away from the plant and take photos with the plant just barely visible for the same purpose. Take 360 degree landscape photos every quarter mile on your hike in. In 30 years you won't remember where you took those photos but if you review the whole series of photos starting at the trailhead you'll remember. Leo Martin Phoenix Arizona USA > > Like for example you have your prize bulb blooming and you go to take a > pic and you find dirt or some other unwanted item on a leaf or on the > bloom. Should you clean it up before pics? Does the same hold true for in > situ bulbs out in the wild? You walk five miles to find a new species of > bulb but the flower has a stick over it. Can you move it or should you > move it? > > I realize there is no one set rule but I would hate to take lots of pics > only to have my hard work discounted because I had moved a stick or clean > dirt off of a leaf. > > The standards are most likely different for scientific research and just > a pic to look at. I guess I am just trying to figure out the difference > between the two. Or if there is any difference at all. > > > Justin > Woodville, TX 8b/9a > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > Windows LiveTM: Keep your life in sync. > http://windowslive.com/explore?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_t1_allup_explore_012009 > > > ------------------------------ > > > _______________________________________________ > pbs mailing list pbs@lists.ibiblio.org > http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php > > > > End of pbs Digest, Vol 72, Issue 10 > *********************************** > > From arnold@nj.rr.com Thu Jan 8 23:09:24 2009 Message-Id: <4966CD97.3000702@nj.rr.com> From: Arnold Trachtenberg Subject: Dry Stall and Stall Dry Date: Thu, 08 Jan 2009 23:07:51 -0500 Scott: I found a Organic Farm out here in NJ that list the Glorious Gardens pumice. I'll call and see how they stick it. Arnold New Jersey From Neil.Crawford@volvo.com Fri Jan 9 04:43:51 2009 Message-Id: <9C5495AFDF325A449075BFC4A1C6D3A743EB9141@SEGOTC5130-CCR.vcn.ds.volvo.net> From: Crawford Neil Subject: Question on Photography of our flowering bulbs Date: Fri, 9 Jan 2009 10:43:49 +0100 We're more botanists than gardeners, and perhaps come at plant photgraphy from a different viewpoint. Our problem is that we're always short of time, if my wife takes too much time on one plant she'll be miles behind the rest of the group, which means she'll miss the discussion about the next plant. We rarely have the luxury of enough time to set up a tripod and fiddle around, even adjusting the camera often gets forgotten in the mad rush to photograph all the plants. If we're on our own, we'll have nearly always planned too tight a schedule so as to maximise the number of plants we can see! We try for more depth of focus than normal, as we really need to see the whole plant for identification. Our set up is that Ragnhild uses a Canon 350D with 100 macro set on Tv and 1/125 sek exposure time, then she can quickly compensate for wind by changing to a faster time, or darkness by going down to 1/60 and holding tight. We've noticed that 1/125 works surprisingly well in most cases, and is a good compromise between speed and DoF. I wield a big birding tele-lens, which comes in handy for difficult far-off shots, and is also very good for isolating a flower from the background (if it's big enough). We usually remove grass and rubbish, and try to take from an angle that gives a nice background. Lying down is involved a lot, as this permits the sky or something diffuse to be behind, the 100macro has a nice bokeh (background blur) but thats difficult to combine with decent depth of focus. We try and work together so that I take notes while she photographs, but I'm afraid that sometimes gets forgotten if a bird turns up. You can never take enough photos, because it's always the thing you haven't taken a photograph of that's vital for identification. Its so much easier to take photographs in South Africa than on a Swedish mountainside on a dull windy day! Best regards Neil From totototo@telus.net Fri Jan 9 11:31:39 2009 Message-Id: <49670B68.20139.455A@localhost> From: totototo@telus.net Subject: Further camera tips Date: Fri, 9 Jan 2009 08:31:36 -0800 Jane McGary lamented the practice of using image editing software to jazz up flower colors. One way to keep yourself honest is to use a 17% neutral gray card as background, or just for separate reference shots under the same conditions and at the time of taking your picture(s). The Rix-Phillips books (among them, the wonderful Bulb Book, aka Random House Book of Bulbs) use such as a background for the studio shots, and to the extent that the printed version of the gray card is tinted, you can get an idea of what kind of color imbalance the photograph has. I believe—correct me if I'm wrong—that digital cameras have more faithful color rendition than film cameras. With film, it's almost impossible to get blue flowers to look like anythng other than a murky purple. Furthermore, film tended to reproduce all reds in a highly saturated fire engine red: a sort of one color fits all approach. Perhaps this exaggeration of reds is connected with the poor reproduction of blues. Another technique that can be very helpful on occasion is to open the diaphragm of your lens to the maximum aperture. This beshallows the depth of field, throwing the background out of focus and emphasizing the subject. If you use this technique, be sure that the camera's autofocus system is focussing on the subject, however. Using a wide aperture also gives shorter exposure times and can help reduce movement due to wind. -- Rodger Whitlock Victoria, British Columbia, Canada Maritime Zone 8, a cool Mediterranean climate on beautiful Vancouver Island http://maps.google.ca/maps?q=48.4676,-123.3262&ll=48.4676,-123.3262&z=14 From markmazerandfm13@earthlink.net Fri Jan 9 12:59:09 2009 Message-Id: <23934625.1231523949155.JavaMail.root@elwamui-huard.atl.sa.earthlink.net> From: Mark Mazer Subject: Further camera tips Date: Fri, 9 Jan 2009 12:59:08 -0500 (GMT-05:00) >Another technique that can be very helpful on occasion is to open the diaphragm >of your lens to the maximum aperture. This beshallows the depth of field, >throwing the background out of focus and emphasizing the subject. If you use >this technique, be sure that the camera's autofocus system is focussing on the >subject, however. Using a wide aperture also gives shorter exposure times and >can help reduce movement due to wind. My suggestion is to print out and learn to use a depth of field chart for each of your lens/camera combinations and to ditch the autofocus feature entirely and use manual focus setting. There are very few digital cameras or lenses that will render true blue well out of the box, and that will also change as the quality of light changes. Digital darkroom techniques are mandatory for high quality print work. Mark Mazer Hertford, North Carolina USA From idavide@sbcglobal.net Fri Jan 9 13:15:35 2009 Message-Id: <340224.33133.qm@web81002.mail.mud.yahoo.com> From: David Ehrlich Subject: Further camera tips Date: Fri, 9 Jan 2009 10:15:34 -0800 (PST) Rodger Whitlock wrote: "I believe—correct me if I'm wrong—that digital cameras have more faithful color rendition than film cameras." I have a digital camera, and I know its color rendition is not faithful.  I can take pictures on successive days of the same flower, and get totally different shades.  Of course this is partially due to lighting, but also such things as exposure length and battery strength, etc.  When I view the photos, my computer has its own ideas of how to render the colors, so when I crop them, except that it's so much trouble to do it convincingly, I'm strongly tempted to re-balance the colors.  And when I finally print the photos, honestly, I'm most interested in having a splendid and near accurate print, because I feel that fidelity is an unreachable objective. David Ehrlich From voltaire@islandnet.com Fri Jan 9 13:58:08 2009 Message-Id: From: Diane Whitehead Subject: list of sources Date: Fri, 9 Jan 2009 10:57:23 -0800 I've discovered a site that lists sources for bulbs, plants and seeds. The homepage says the sources are worldwide, but all the plants I've checked have been available only from Europe. The site is constantly updated, though, so that could change. Perhaps no North American nurseries have sent their lists in. As of today: Suppliers: 915 Number of plants: 79'557 http://www.plantnavigator.ch/en/index0.shtml Diane Whitehead From idavide@sbcglobal.net Fri Jan 9 14:29:39 2009 Message-Id: <850737.70025.qm@web81006.mail.mud.yahoo.com> From: David Ehrlich Subject: list of sources Date: Fri, 9 Jan 2009 11:29:33 -0800 (PST) That site doesn't do a very good job.  I looked up Patersonia, as an example; it didn't list any sellers of that genus.  Yet, it did list B&T World Seeds (both Erica patrersonia and  Babiana patersoniae) which happens to sell seed for several species of Patersonia. _______________________________________________ From: Diane Whitehead http://www.plantnavigator.ch/en/index0.shtml As of today: Suppliers: 915 Number of plants: 79,557 From marie-paule.opdenakker@pandora.be Fri Jan 9 14:47:02 2009 Message-Id: From: "Marie-Paule" Subject: Early winter greetings from Maryland Date: Fri, 9 Jan 2009 20:46:44 +0100 Hello Jim, What a lovely arrangement Regards, Marie-Paule Belgium, -10 C° (14 F) ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jim McKenney" To: "'Pacific Bulb Society'" Sent: Thursday, January 08, 2009 10:56 PM Subject: [pbs] Early winter greetings from Maryland Here's a little bouquet I picked from the garden yesterday: http://www.jimmckenney.com/jan%20bouquet.htm It also paints a false picture of our winters: it isn't often that the first week of January (when these were picked) offers such a variety of bloom here in zone 7 Montgomery County, Maryland. Shown here are Iris unguicularis, Jamsinum nudiflorum, Helleborus foetidus (and a garden hellebore in bud), Chimonanthus praecox 'Luteus', Hamamelis 'Jelena', H. 'Feuerzauber', Galanthus elwesii and foliage of Arum italicum, Hedera helix, Sarcococca humilis and Danaë racemosa. Camellia japonica is also opening its first blossom, and lots of other items are budded and ready to go in the cold frames. I've got my eye on several groups of the little white-flowered hoop petticoat daffodils which are in advanced bud. Jim McKenney jimmckenney@jimmckenney.com Montgomery County, Maryland, USA, 39.03871º North, 77.09829º West, USDA zone 7 My Virtual Maryland Garden http://www.jimmckenney.com BLOG! http://mcwort.blogspot.com/ Webmaster Potomac Valley Chapter, NARGS Editor PVC Bulletin http://www.pvcnargs.org Webmaster Potomac Lily Society http://www.potomaclilysociety.org _______________________________________________ pbs mailing list pbs@lists.ibiblio.org http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php http://pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 3735 (20090104) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com From faeden4444@sbcglobal.net Fri Jan 9 16:42:19 2009 Message-Id: <35534.49179.qm@web83603.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> From: Marilyn Pekasky Subject: list of sources Date: Fri, 9 Jan 2009 13:42:08 -0800 (PST) That's a great source, especially if you're in Europe.  There are some US nurseries listed; e.g., I searched on the "genus" Cactus and found 3-4 US nurseries listed.  Wish they had a way to search by country, region, etc. Another great source for general plant source info is Dave's Garden's "Products and Sources" section (http://davesgarden.com/products/).  The section called "Garden Watchdog" at which DG members review many of the mail-order nurseries is a great resource.   You do not have to become a member in order to use these resources; only if you wish to add your own comments or reviews (at no cost to you).  It can be searched by company name, zip code, first letter of company name, category, state/province, and country. Marilyn ________________________________ From: Diane Whitehead To: Pacific Bulb Society Sent: Friday, January 9, 2009 10:57:23 AM Subject: [pbs] list of sources I've discovered a site that lists sources for bulbs, plants and  seeds.  The homepage says the sources are worldwide, but all the  plants I've checked have been available only from Europe.  The site is  constantly updated, though, so that could change.  Perhaps no North  American nurseries have sent their lists in. As of today: Suppliers: 915 Number of plants: 79'557 http://www.plantnavigator.ch/en/index0.shtml Diane Whitehead _______________________________________________ pbs mailing list pbs@lists.ibiblio.org http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php http://pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki From honeybunny442@yahoo.com Fri Jan 9 19:07:02 2009 Message-Id: <490091.56995.qm@web56103.mail.re3.yahoo.com> From: Susan B Subject: Further camera tips Date: Fri, 9 Jan 2009 16:07:01 -0800 (PST) I agree with David, digital cameras are not more accurate than regular cameras. Price also doesn't have much to do with it, a $200 digital turns my "black" callas red, as does my >$1000 digital SLR. I guess photos are only as good as the photographer, ha! Recently someone on a plant list (I thought it was this one) gave a link to a website which discusses why it's so hard to take a photo of certain plant colors, it has to do with light absorption or some such thing. susan From riastandard@gmail.com Sat Jan 10 01:12:14 2009 Message-Id: <640b8ef80901092212q30560e69ge6e50d1f4c59db7d@mail.gmail.com> From: Maria Standard Subject: skunk lily, chocolate lily, castor seed Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2009 01:12:12 -0500 I am in search of skunk lily, chocolate lily, and castor seed plants, or bulbs, seeds will work not sure if its a bulb or not. Have heard that they can be used to get rid of moles and I have a huge problem. It was in my yard and we treated it with chemicals and they moved on, right into my rhubarb garden. Its a huge plot. They did so poorly this year becuase of that. I had no idea either until I came out to pick the ruhbarb was away all summer. I do not want to chemically treat the moles around the rhubarb as I don't want to kill them and I also eat the rhubarb. A location to buy, or a exchange, or a donation will help. Just subscribed to the list so I'm not sure how that works so if you could send comments to the list and to me directly via e-mail that would be great. E-mail is riastandard@gmail.com. Thanks, Ria From brown.mark@wanadoo.fr Sat Jan 10 03:47:18 2009 Message-Id: <27207779.572846.1231577236438.JavaMail.www@wwinf1611> From: Mark BROWN Subject: skunk lily, chocolate lily, castor seed Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2009 09:47:16 +0100 (CET) Dear Ria, All these plants might work but some strains only as they don't always contain the chemical componant that dissuades the moles.I have tried many times various plants but have found them pushing up the very plants that I had put in just to drive them away!! Try humane mole traps and take the creatures away to some local woodland?Chemicals are only a temporary solution as you have found out! Kind regards, Mark > Message du 10/01/09 07:12 > De : "Maria Standard" > A : pbs@lists.ibiblio.org > Copie à : > Objet : [pbs] skunk lily, chocolate lily, castor seed > > > I am in search of skunk lily, chocolate lily, and castor seed plants, or > bulbs, seeds will work not sure if its a bulb or not. Have heard that they > can be used to get rid of moles and I have a huge problem. It was in my yard > and we treated it with chemicals and they moved on, right into my rhubarb > garden. Just subscribed to the list so I'm not sure how > that works so if you could send comments to the list and to me directly via > e-mail that would be great. E-mail is riastandard@gmail.com. > > Thanks, > Ria > _______________________________________________ > pbs mailing list > pbs@lists.ibiblio.org > http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php > http://pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki > > From jwaddick@kc.rr.com Sat Jan 10 09:49:03 2009 Message-Id: From: James Waddick Subject: A non-commercial, not for profit announcement - SIGNA Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2009 08:51:11 -0600 Dear Friends, I am co-chair (with Jim Murrain) of the SIGNA Seed Exchange (SIGNA is the Species Iris Group of North America and their Seed Exchange is the major seed distribution of the American Iris Society). The newest seed list has just been posted on its web site at http://www.signa.org/index.pl?SeedXchg Seeds are very easily ordered and paid for on-line, world wide. (Thanks to webmaster Dennis Kramb). You must be a SIGNA member to order seed and fortunately you can join and pay dues at the time of ordering on-line simultaneously. Convenient! This is one of the most diverse sources of iris and related irid seeds available anywhere. There are many goodies available. Enjoy. Jim Waddick -- Dr. James W. Waddick 8871 NW Brostrom Rd. Kansas City Missouri 64152-2711 USA Ph. 816-746-1949 Zone 5 Record low -23F Summer 100F + From braun3@earthlink.net Sat Jan 10 13:36:58 2009 Message-Id: From: "Pam Braun" Subject: skunk lily, chocolate lily, castor seed Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2009 12:36:44 -0600 Castor bean plants are easy to grow, though not too many people do because they are considered poisonous. I have a bunch of seed somewhere which are not from this past summer, but the summer before. They look like regular bean seeds, so you can just poke them down in the soil where you want them to come up. I will try to find them and mail you some if you decide you want them. So let me know, and I will try to find where I put them. They grow pretty tall...about 8 ft. tall. I have used the unusual flowers, seed pods, and foliage in creative floral designs. I just always make sure I wash my hands after cutting them. Pam Braun ----- Original Message ----- From: "Maria Standard" To: Sent: Saturday, January 10, 2009 12:12 AM Subject: [pbs] skunk lily, chocolate lily, castor seed >I am in search of skunk lily, chocolate lily, and castor seed plants, or > bulbs, seeds will work not sure if its a bulb or not. Have heard that they > can be used to get rid of moles and I have a huge problem. It was in my > yard > and we treated it with chemicals and they moved on, right into my rhubarb > garden. Its a huge plot. They did so poorly this year becuase of that. I > had > no idea either until I came out to pick the ruhbarb was away all summer. I > do not want to chemically treat the moles around the rhubarb as I don't > want > to kill them and I also eat the rhubarb. A location to buy, or a exchange, > or a donation will help. Just subscribed to the list so I'm not sure how > that works so if you could send comments to the list and to me directly > via > e-mail that would be great. E-mail is riastandard@gmail.com. > > Thanks, > Ria > _______________________________________________ > pbs mailing list > pbs@lists.ibiblio.org > http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php > http://pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com Version: 8.0.176 / Virus Database: 270.10.5/1885 - Release Date: 1/9/2009 7:59 PM From info@auchgourishbotanicgarden.org Sat Jan 10 15:18:29 2009 Message-Id: <9032537308F84493BA8382F29A4CF243@homepc> From: Subject: Moles Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2009 20:18:34 -0000 Ria you can take some comfort from the very fact that you have moles as these furry gentlemen's presence is a function of a good working soil ecosystem, i.e. that you have essential earth worms. They also eat slugs and several genera of invertebrates which can do serious damage to certain types of plants such as Lilium. Look on the bright side, consider them as being on your pay role, they are not a threat quite the reverse but the worse you can say is they are sometimes inconvenient. Typically man wants and man expects but sometimes man doesn't respect. Learn to love your moles, they don't have any specially housing requirements, need looking after, as you found you can go away for weeks on end and they are there to greet and reassure you on your return. There is one further element of course, certain genetically deficient men especially, get as mad as hell when their lawn gets visited by moles. The hard facts are that men, unlike women, do not have the gene for grass cutting but women do. All biological rules have exceptions as I tell our visitors to the gardens here and you would be astonished by the degree to which women agree that their men have problems cutting the lawn grass, the first is the guy who cuts the lawn in vertical/parallel stripes.....he needs to get out a bit more, then there is the guy who cuts the lawn in checkerboard fashion....... he is putting off going in to talk to his wife; and finally there is the guy who cuts the lawn in erratic meandering ways..........that's a guy who is alcohol dependent and needs help. Grass and by implication lawns are required by gardners to be fed into one end of a cow in order to raise the fertility of the garden from the other end. I challenge anyone to find fault with this rational! Iain -- I am using the free version of SPAMfighter. We are a community of 5.8 million users fighting spam. SPAMfighter has removed 42141 of my spam emails to date. Get the free SPAMfighter here: http://www.spamfighter.com/len The Professional version does not have this message From riastandard@gmail.com Sat Jan 10 15:32:07 2009 Message-Id: <640b8ef80901101231h5d81cb0co9fe140a78e17d4e8@mail.gmail.com> From: Maria Standard Subject: skunk lily, chocolate lily, castor seed Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2009 15:31:58 -0500 Yeah I would be intrested in them if your not needing them of course. I don't want to short you or anything. I would be happy to pay for shipping if you like. I'm not sure if you wanted anything for them themselves or not, but if you do I'm sure we can work something out. My address is: Becky Emert 334 Emert Rd Somerset, Pa 15501. Thanks for all your help. On Sat, Jan 10, 2009 at 1:36 PM, Pam Braun wrote: > Castor bean plants are easy to grow, though not too many people do because > they are considered poisonous. I have a bunch of seed somewhere which are > not from this past summer, but the summer before. They look like regular > bean seeds, so you can just poke them down in the soil where you want them > to come up. I will try to find them and mail you some if you decide you > want > them. So let me know, and I will try to find where I put them. They grow > pretty tall...about 8 ft. tall. I have used the unusual flowers, seed > pods, > and foliage in creative floral designs. I just always make sure I wash my > hands after cutting them. Pam Braun > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Maria Standard" > To: > Sent: Saturday, January 10, 2009 12:12 AM > Subject: [pbs] skunk lily, chocolate lily, castor seed > > > >I am in search of skunk lily, chocolate lily, and castor seed plants, or > > bulbs, seeds will work not sure if its a bulb or not. Have heard that > they > > can be used to get rid of moles and I have a huge problem. It was in my > > yard > > and we treated it with chemicals and they moved on, right into my rhubarb > > garden. Its a huge plot. They did so poorly this year becuase of that. I > > had > > no idea either until I came out to pick the ruhbarb was away all summer. > I > > do not want to chemically treat the moles around the rhubarb as I don't > > want > > to kill them and I also eat the rhubarb. A location to buy, or a > exchange, > > or a donation will help. Just subscribed to the list so I'm not sure how > > that works so if you could send comments to the list and to me directly > > via > > e-mail that would be great. E-mail is riastandard@gmail.com. > > > > Thanks, > > Ria > > _______________________________________________ > > pbs mailing list > > pbs@lists.ibiblio.org > > http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php > > http://pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com > Version: 8.0.176 / Virus Database: 270.10.5/1885 - Release Date: 1/9/2009 > 7:59 PM > > _______________________________________________ > pbs mailing list > pbs@lists.ibiblio.org > http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php > http://pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki > From arnold@nj.rr.com Sat Jan 10 15:34:58 2009 Message-Id: <49690613.8030405@nj.rr.com> From: Arnold Trachtenberg Subject: skunk lily, chocolate lily, castor seed Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2009 15:33:23 -0500 See this link for some info on Castor Bean plant. Arnold http://www.usatoday.com/tech/columnist/aprilholladay/2006-03-20-poison-fish_x.htm From jwaddick@kc.rr.com Sat Jan 10 17:54:39 2009 Message-Id: From: James Waddick Subject: Cedric Morris Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2009 16:56:43 -0600 Dear Friends, Our weather has been one series of cold set backs after another. A lot of early really cold weather and numerous days hovering around 0 F. Today we have 2 flowers fully open in the garden and outside. They are the tiny Narcissus minor 'Cedric Morris' and it seems like spring must be coming. This is one of the earliest and smallest of the daffodils to bloom here. This is about the earliest it has bloomed in the last 6 or 8 years, but more likely in mid Feb to Mid Mar. There are 2 flowers in full bloom a few more in buds showing colors and other bulbs slightly behind. The proverbial breath of fresh air. I have to thank the late (great) Jack Elliott for pushing me to get my bulbs. I know of no US grower. My bulbs came from the UK (and not cheap), but I wish they were more available. Here's a bit of further info: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/gardening/3337020/How-to-grow-Narcissus-%27Cedric-Morris%27.html Worth pursuing and a real charmer this time of year. There's a pic on the wiki too and I took a picture today too if anyone can post it for me. Can spring be far behind ? Best Jim W. ps Been too busy for my 2 cents on Cacti and plant photos. Next time. -- Dr. James W. Waddick 8871 NW Brostrom Rd. Kansas City Missouri 64152-2711 USA Ph. 816-746-1949 Zone 5 Record low -23F Summer 100F + From toadlily@olywa.net Sat Jan 10 23:24:38 2009 Message-Id: <496974A8.8020405@olywa.net> From: Laura & Dave Subject: Email from Westonbirt Plants ??? Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2009 20:25:12 -0800 I just received an email from Westonbirt Plants, starting off "Dear Customers". However, I've never heard of them before, and being the cautious type, declined to open the attachments; rather, I Googled their website, which has "new" listings from Autumn 2007. Does anyone know if this nursery is still in business and just out of date, or is this some sort of malicious internet fishing/virus scam? I have no idea how they got my email address. Has anyone else received this? Thanks Dave Brastow - Tumwater, Washington From riastandard@gmail.com Sun Jan 11 00:41:22 2009 Message-Id: <640b8ef80901102140l18d34651p668092ab68f81c21@mail.gmail.com> From: Maria Standard Subject: skunk lily, chocolate lily, castor seed Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2009 00:40:49 -0500 Ok so I did some research on the plant and dogs, doesn't seem they are overly attracted to them as other plants. My dog dosn't eat plants unless we give them to her, and most of the time it has to be in her bowl, but just in case I will put in a fence around the area I plan to plant them. That might keep other animals away too. We live in a rural area, with no children for about a mile so that won't be a problem, but I will make the fence high enough just the same. Thanks for the article. That fish was pretty cool. Let me know if you would like any reimbursment for them. Thanks so much. Ria On Sat, Jan 10, 2009 at 3:33 PM, Arnold Trachtenberg wrote: > See this link for some info on Castor Bean plant. > > Arnold > > > http://www.usatoday.com/tech/columnist/aprilholladay/2006-03-20-poison-fish_x.htm > _______________________________________________ > pbs mailing list > pbs@lists.ibiblio.org > http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php > http://pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki > From brown.mark@wanadoo.fr Sun Jan 11 03:03:06 2009 Message-Id: <21760912.271570.1231660977913.JavaMail.www@wwinf1c12> From: Mark BROWN Subject: Moles Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2009 09:02:57 +0100 (CET) Dear Ria, I have no real objections to moles.They do no real damage,mole hills are just spread out in the grass and probably do it some good.They do however move bulbs and other plants around.I have had various galanthus shuffled around (a nightmare with a collection!).Some bulbs were even taken through a vey thick old stone wall and came up happily on the other side!!There is a real down side though.Voles use the mole tunnels afterwards.And voles do eat plants in some alarming quantities!Therefore you may have either to trap humanely the voles and move those out.Or get a cat or two! Good luck, Mark > Message du 10/01/09 21:18 > De : info@auchgourishbotanicgarden.org > A : pbs@lists.ibiblio.org > Copie à : > Objet : [pbs] Moles > > > Ria you can take some comfort from the very fact that you have moles as these furry gentlemen's presence is a function of a good working soil ecosystem, i.e. that you have essential earth worms. They also eat slugs and several genera of invertebrates which can do serious damage to certain types of plants such as Lilium. Look on the bright side, consider them as being on your pay role, they are not a threat quite the reverse but the worse you can say is they are sometimes inconvenient. > > Typically man wants and man expects but sometimes man doesn't respect. Learn to love your moles, they don't have any specially housing requirements, need looking after, as you found you can go away for weeks on end and they are there to greet and reassure you on your return. There is one further element of course, certain genetically deficient men especially, get as mad as hell when their lawn gets visited by moles. The hard facts are that men, unlike women, do not have the gene for grass cutting but women do. All biological rules have exceptions as I tell our visitors to the gardens here and you would be astonished by the degree to which women agree that their men have problems cutting the lawn grass, the first is the guy who cuts the lawn in vertical/parallel stripes.....he needs to get out a bit more, then there is the guy who cuts the lawn in checkerboard fashion....... he is putting off going in to talk to his wife; and finally there is the guy who cuts the lawn in errat > ic meandering ways..........that's a guy who is alcohol dependent and needs help. Grass and by implication lawns are required by gardners to be fed into one end of a cow in order to raise the fertility of the garden from the other end. I challenge anyone to find fault with this rational! > > Iain > > -- > I am using the free version of SPAMfighter. > We are a community of 5.8 million users fighting spam. > SPAMfighter has removed 42141 of my spam emails to date. > Get the free SPAMfighter here: http://www.spamfighter.com/len > > The Professional version does not have this message > _______________________________________________ > pbs mailing list > pbs@lists.ibiblio.org > http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php > http://pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki > > From pbs@pilling.demon.co.uk Sun Jan 11 07:24:10 2009 Message-Id: <8ulVyTBISeaJFwqr@pilling.demon.co.uk> From: David Pilling Subject: Email from Westonbirt Plants ??? Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2009 12:22:32 +0000 In message <496974A8.8020405@olywa.net>, Laura & Dave writes >I just received an email from Westonbirt Plants, starting off "Dear >Customers". However, I've never heard of them before, and being the >got my email address. Has anyone else received this? I asked them about something a year back and since then I've occasionally received emails from them. The latest arrived yesterday with three .doc attachments and one .xls. (66K, 34K, 97K, 42K lengths) I'd say they are legitimate. -- David Pilling email: david@pilling.demon.co.uk web: http://www.davidpilling.net post: David Pilling P.O. Box 22 Thornton Cleveleys Blackpool. FY5 1LR UK fax: +44(0)870-0520-941 From davidxvictor@btinternet.com Sun Jan 11 14:59:59 2009 Message-Id: <20090111195958.CE4874C00F@lists.ibiblio.org> From: David Victor Subject: Westonbirt Plants Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2009 19:59:07 +0000 Hi everyone, They are a very good, specialist bulb nursery based in Worcestershire, England, and run by Tony Dickerson. Their Spring 2009 list has just been sent out be email. Best regards, David Victor From crinum@libero.it Sun Jan 11 15:03:51 2009 Message-Id: From: "Alberto Grossi" Subject: Westonbirt Plants Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2009 21:03:02 +0100 Hi David, may you share the link? Thank you Alberto ---------- Initial Header ----------- From : pbs-bounces@lists.ibiblio.org To : pbs@lists.ibiblio.org Cc : Date : Sun, 11 Jan 2009 19:59:07 +0000 Subject : Re: [pbs] Westonbirt Plants > Hi everyone, > > They are a very good, specialist bulb nursery based in > Worcestershire, England, and run by Tony Dickerson. Their Spring > 2009 list has just been sent out be email. > > Best regards, > David Victor > > _______________________________________________ > pbs mailing list > pbs@lists.ibiblio.org > http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php > http://pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki > Alberto Grossi Italy From jwaddick@kc.rr.com Sun Jan 11 18:10:44 2009 Message-Id: From: James Waddick Subject: Common Names Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2009 17:12:40 -0600 Dear Friends, The recent request for info on : "skunk lily, chocolate lily, castor seed" left me a bit befuddled. I had no idea what a skunk lily is and no one responded in kind. A quick search came up with Fritillaria camschatcensis. Pacific Rim Native Plant Nursery does not use this common name at all and claims they are edible. Another site referred to it as 'Dirty Diaper Lily' a particularly unfortunate combination. Let's review; edible and smells like dirty diaper - I don't relish a serving of this botanical treat. The scent of rotting meat (according to PRNP) sounds much preferable to other common names including outhouse lily. Maybe I am missing something, but surely there is a reason to grow these. Tell me. Maybe it is too mid-winter to appreciate the subtlety. Best JIm W. -- Dr. James W. Waddick 8871 NW Brostrom Rd. Kansas City Missouri 64152-2711 USA Ph. 816-746-1949 Zone 5 Record low -23F Summer 100F + From arnold@nj.rr.com Sun Jan 11 18:31:39 2009 Message-Id: <496A80FD.70403@nj.rr.com> From: Arnold Trachtenberg Subject: Westonbirt Plants Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2009 18:30:05 -0500 Alberto: Here is the link. http://www.westonbirtplants.co.uk/ Arnold From riastandard@gmail.com Sun Jan 11 19:26:20 2009 Message-Id: <640b8ef80901111626i6b5fd06eicf314ce48d39257@mail.gmail.com> From: Maria Standard Subject: Email from Westonbirt Plants ??? Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2009 19:26:19 -0500 I am a previous employee of Microsoft, and I was an engineer for them working on the XP operating system preforming technical support for customers that called in for support. My job was to search the "internal" knowledge base and find answers to there problems, that was a horrible search engine and required extream skills in using. They had a whole class on how to use it. If we couldn't find the answers on there we had to use the internet to find others who had had the problem and what they did about it, so I learned how to get all over the internet and find info. So with all my searching skills I looked around for your information needed about that e-mail. There is nothing I could find about it being danagours and there being a known problem. So I would imigan its just a normal e-mail that somehow one of your companies that you do buy flowers from sold off your information and they got it. Or they just missed spelled someone's e-mail that is close to yours and you ended up with the email. Now if it where me I would read the e-mail, but NOT open the attachments. Those can be blocked html pictures coming thru to advertise there company logo. I would not send them information, or respond to the email just in case its a fishing scam. If your really curios about what the attachments are, go to a libray and view the e-mail there. They will have a hardware firewall, a computer based firewall, and they would run up to date virus scans and adware scans. They won't have any problem if something happens. Worse that will happen is they have to reinstall the system which is nothing becuase the libray will have imiaged drives to just swap it out and its up and running. Now I wouldn't tell them you where going to do that, becuase they will just say no, please don't, but really, its not a big deal to the network admin the desk libray workers just don't know, by the way I am a network admin as well. If it turns out to be something weird just let them know you didn't know what it was which is the truth. So if you want let me know and I will let you know. If you like you can evey send it to me, I have a blank system right now that I"m running so if something happens its no big deal. Have a great day. Ria On Sat, Jan 10, 2009 at 11:25 PM, Laura & Dave wrote: > I just received an email from Westonbirt Plants, starting off "Dear > Customers". However, I've never heard of them before, and being the > cautious type, declined to open the attachments; rather, I Googled their > website, which has "new" listings from Autumn 2007. Does anyone know if > this nursery is still in business and just out of date, or is this some > sort of malicious internet fishing/virus scam? I have no idea how they > got my email address. Has anyone else received this? > > Thanks > Dave Brastow - Tumwater, Washington > > _______________________________________________ > pbs mailing list > pbs@lists.ibiblio.org > http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php > http://pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki > From jimmckenney@jimmckenney.com Sun Jan 11 19:40:30 2009 Message-Id: <000c01c9744e$e4564560$2f01a8c0@Library> From: "Jim McKenney" Subject: Common Names Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2009 19:44:12 -0500 Jim Waddick asked about the small, smelly fritillaries " Maybe I am missing something, but surely there is a reason to grow these. Tell me." OK, here's why I grow them: they're cool and you don't notice the smell unless you've got your nose stuck up into them. Or at least I don't. Once you're seen a couple of dozen of these blooming in all their marmoreal variety on a sunny late March or early April day, with the sunlight illuminating the dusky bowls and enhancing the fascinating veining and checkering, you'll be a believer, too. They remind me of stained glass, especially art nouveau Tiffany glass. Be sure to invite your friends over, too, if only for the pleasure of hearing them say "I didn't think you could grow those around here." Skunk lily is also used, very appropriately according to my nose, for Fritillaria imperialis. The bulbs of this one have a strong vulpine or mustelid odor and thus really do live up to the name. I find this odor very appealing. One often encounters the claim that they repel moles; if there is any truth at all to this, it must apply to the immediate vicinity of the plant. Most of us have trouble enough keeping a few of these going, so it's hardly a practical exercise to rely on it for repelling moles. Here's an update on my 2008 Fritillaria imperialis/Fritillaria persica experiment. I grew the plant in local soil heavily amended with ground limestone. The bulbs were dug as soon as the foliage began to show signs of ripening. After drying the bulbs in the shade for about two weeks, they were wrapped individually in newspaper cocoons. The cocoons were unwrapped occasionally during the summer to allow me to check the condition of the bulbs. The bulbs began to produce roots in August; these roots grew to be about four inches long and then stopped. The bulbs were not planted back into the ground until sometime in November. At that time they seemed to be heavy and in fine condition. To be continued... Jim McKenney From jimmckenney@jimmckenney.com Sun Jan 11 19:46:12 2009 Message-Id: <000d01c9744f$b02f5460$2f01a8c0@Library> From: "Jim McKenney" Subject: Iris unguicularis Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2009 19:49:54 -0500 Has anyone seen data which gives the number of blooms produced by a clump (technical term, right?) of Iris unguicularis during its blooming season? I have not counted mine yet, but last year it must have produced at least two dozen flowers spread out over a period of a bit more than four months. I was not keeping track of this earlier, but on the basis of what I remember my plant has so produced about twelve flowers since it started in November. It keeps pumping out the flowers! Its relative Iris lazica, which enjoys a cushier life in the protected cold frame, has yet to bloom here (ever). Jim McKenney From HHeaven77@aol.com Sun Jan 11 22:04:16 2009 Message-Id: <8CB42799027F366-14EC-1013@webmail-dx21.sysops.aol.com> From: hheaven77@aol.com Subject: I would like to have one of these... Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2009 22:04:05 -0500 I was a little shocked to see a three year "Rare Brunsvigia grandiflora - Stunning Candelabra Lily"? sell for $71.00 on eBay today.? I would like to have one of these but this one seemed a little pricey! Celeste Phoenix, AZ 60 degrees and fair at 8:03pm -----Original Message----- From: James Waddick To: Pacific Bulb Society Sent: Sun, 11 Jan 2009 4:12 pm Subject: [pbs] Common Names Dear Friends, The recent request for info on : "skunk lily, chocolate lily, castor seed" left me a bit befuddled. I had no idea what a skunk lily is and no one responded in kind. A quick search came up with Fritillaria camschatcensis. Pacific Rim Native Plant Nursery does not use this common name at all and claims they are edible. Another site referred to it as 'Dirty Diaper Lily' a particularly unfortunate combination. Let's review; edible and smells like dirty diaper - I don't relish a serving of this botanical treat. The scent of rotting meat (according to PRNP) sounds much preferable to other common names including outhouse lily. Maybe I am missing something, but surely there is a reason to grow these. Tell me. Maybe it is too mid-winter to appreciate the subtlety. Best JIm W. -- Dr. James W. Waddick 8871 NW Brostrom Rd. Kansas City Missouri 64152-2711 USA Ph. 816-746-1949 Zone 5 Record low -23F Summer 100F + _______________________________________________ pbs mailing list pbs@lists.ibiblio.org http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php http://pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki From clayton3120@cablespeed.com Sun Jan 11 22:36:01 2009 Message-Id: <8E886875D2E8419CB8F09D6BF8AB15AA@RickPC> From: "Rick" Subject: Iris unguicularis Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2009 19:36:28 -0800 That sounds like a low count to me, Jim. I guess it depends on your clump size, but mine produce between 80- 100 or more in a season. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jim McKenney" To: "'Pacific Bulb Society'" Sent: Sunday, January 11, 2009 4:49 PM Subject: [pbs] Iris unguicularis > > Has anyone seen data which gives the number of blooms produced by a clump > (technical term, right?) of Iris unguicularis during its blooming season? > > I have not counted mine yet, but last year it must have produced at least > two dozen flowers spread out over a period of a bit more than four months. > > I was not keeping track of this earlier, but on the basis of what I > remember > my plant has so produced about twelve flowers since it started in > November. > > It keeps pumping out the flowers! > > Its relative Iris lazica, which enjoys a cushier life in the protected > cold > frame, has yet to bloom here (ever). > > Jim McKenney > > _______________________________________________ > pbs mailing list > pbs@lists.ibiblio.org > http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php > http://pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki From faeden4444@sbcglobal.net Sun Jan 11 22:57:06 2009 Message-Id: <315375.80553.qm@web83605.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> From: Marilyn Pekasky Subject: I would like to have one of these... Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2009 19:57:05 -0800 (PST) I've seen this seller's items before.  He does a great marketing job and therefore gets good prices for his items.  I know he has in the past purchased things from the Berkeley Botanc Garden, where I volunteer, and then sold them on eBay for several times what he paid for them.  But that's what happens when you can reach out to such a huge audience, which we can't do at the Garden. I wouldn't have paid even half that much for that plant.  In fact, I'm going to find out if we have one for sale and see what we're asking for it. ________________________________ From: "hheaven77@aol.com" To: pbs@lists.ibiblio.org Sent: Sunday, January 11, 2009 7:04:05 PM Subject: [pbs] I would like to have one of these... I was a little shocked to see a three year "Rare Brunsvigia grandiflora - Stunning Candelabra Lily"? sell for $71.00 on eBay today.? I would like to have one of these but this one seemed a little pricey! Celeste Phoenix, AZ 60 degrees and fair at 8:03pm -----Original Message----- From: James Waddick To: Pacific Bulb Society Sent: Sun, 11 Jan 2009 4:12 pm Subject: [pbs] Common Names Dear Friends,     The recent request for info on : "skunk lily, chocolate lily, castor seed"  left me a bit befuddled.     I had no idea what a skunk lily is and no one responded in kind. A quick search came up with Fritillaria camschatcensis. Pacific Rim Native Plant Nursery does not use this common name at all and claims they are edible. Another site referred to it as 'Dirty Diaper Lily' a particularly unfortunate combination.  Let's review; edible and smells like dirty diaper - I don't relish a serving of this botanical treat.     The scent of rotting meat (according to PRNP) sounds much preferable to other common names including outhouse lily.     Maybe I am missing something, but surely there is a reason to grow these. Tell me.     Maybe it is too mid-winter to appreciate the subtlety.         Best        JIm W. -- Dr. James W. Waddick 8871 NW Brostrom Rd. Kansas City Missouri 64152-2711 USA Ph.    816-746-1949 Zone 5 Record low -23F     Summer 100F + _______________________________________________ pbs mailing list pbs@lists.ibiblio.org http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php http://pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki _______________________________________________ pbs mailing list pbs@lists.ibiblio.org http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php http://pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki From msittner@mcn.org Sun Jan 11 23:05:14 2009 Message-Id: <5.2.0.9.2.20090111191839.03163428@mail.mcn.org> From: Mary Sue Ittner Subject: Brunsvigia grandiflora/Sources Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2009 20:04:49 -0800 I ordered seeds from the BX in 2000 for $2 of Brunsvigia grandiflora. In 2007 they bloomed and they bloomed again this year. I ended up with 9 seeds germinating from that first BX. Rhoda and Cameron McMaster donated seeds in 2003 to the PBS list (everyone, not just the members of Pacific Bulb Society). Again the price was $2 per packet. We are really fortunate to have generous people in our group who donate some real gems to the BX. Those three year old Brunsvigias may not even be blooming size. I imagine there are a number of very reliable sources in the US that are much cheaper for Brunsvigias than eBay including some members of our list like Diana Chapman (Telos) and Dylan Hannon. Mary Sue >I was a little shocked to see a three year "Rare Brunsvigia grandiflora - >Stunning Candelabra Lily"? sell for $71.00 on eBay today.? From lamonready@hotmail.com Sun Jan 11 23:14:12 2009 Message-Id: From: lamon ready Subject: Brunsvigia grandiflora/Sources Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2009 23:14:04 -0500 hi all, diane (telos) is out of lycoris rosea. anybody out there have several that they would be willing to adopt out to a new home. i've been wanting them for several years now. any help? thanks, lamon > Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2009 20:04:49 -0800> To: pbs@lists.ibiblio.org> From: msittner@mcn.org> Subject: [pbs] Brunsvigia grandiflora/Sources> > I ordered seeds from the BX in 2000 for $2 of Brunsvigia grandiflora. In > 2007 they bloomed and they bloomed again this year. I ended up with 9 seeds > germinating from that first BX. Rhoda and Cameron McMaster donated seeds in > 2003 to the PBS list (everyone, not just the members of Pacific Bulb > Society). Again the price was $2 per packet. We are really fortunate to > have generous people in our group who donate some real gems to the BX. > Those three year old Brunsvigias may not even be blooming size. I imagine > there are a number of very reliable sources in the US that are much cheaper > for Brunsvigias than eBay including some members of our list like Diana > Chapman (Telos) and Dylan Hannon.> > Mary Sue> >I was a little shocked to see a three year "Rare Brunsvigia grandiflora - > >Stunning Candelabra Lily"? sell for $71.00 on eBay today.?> > _______________________________________________> pbs mailing list> pbs@lists.ibiblio.org> http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php> http://pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki From oothal@hotmail.com Sun Jan 11 23:24:16 2009 Message-Id: From: Justin Smith Subject: I would like to have one of these... Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2009 22:24:13 -0600 Yes I have seen that seller before also. I like to see what he has. Though most of what he sells goes for a high price, most of his things can be found at other places cheaper. If one is willing to look and/or settle for seed instead. One reason EBAY works is because people get in a hurry don't want to take the time to look else where. Though I hate seeing things like that sell for a lot of money I am not a socialist so I can't say it is wrong either. A least I can afford seed!! Justin Woodville, TX 8b/9a > > I was a little shocked to see a three year "Rare Brunsvigia grandiflora - Stunning Candelabra Lily"? sell for $71.00 on eBay today.? I would like to have one of these but this one seemed a little pricey!> > Celeste> Phoenix, AZ> 60 degrees and fair at 8:03pm> _________________________________________________________________ Windows Live™: Keep your life in sync. http://windowslive.com/howitworks?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_t1_allup_howitworks_012009 From totototo@telus.net Mon Jan 12 00:46:18 2009 Message-Id: <496A68A8.14454.290D@localhost> From: totototo@telus.net Subject: Iris unguicularis Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2009 21:46:16 -0800 On 11 Jan 2009, at 19:49, Jim McKenney wrote: > ...Iris lazica, which enjoys a cushier life in the protected cold frame, has > yet to bloom here (ever). Well, would *you* blooom if you were cooped up in a protected cold frame? [At this moment, I have a vision of Jim in a tutu performing "Dance of the Flowers". Look, mommy, at the funny man: he's blooming!] Plant it out. I've got a few clumps of I. lazica scattered around the place, and afaict they're bone hardy. They don't need the same sunny baking that I. unguicularis seems to prefer. -- Rodger Whitlock Victoria, British Columbia, Canada Maritime Zone 8, a cool Mediterranean climate on beautiful Vancouver Island http://maps.google.ca/maps?q=48.4676,-123.3262&ll=48.4676,-123.3262&z=14 From totototo@telus.net Mon Jan 12 00:46:18 2009 Message-Id: <496A68A8.20119.2919@localhost> From: totototo@telus.net Subject: The scent of Fritillaria camschatensis Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2009 21:46:16 -0800 "Dirty diaper" isn't right. It's fairly closely akin in odor to Frit. imperialis; "foxy" is the usual descriptive term. There's no hint in it of the scent of urine, nor of the skatoles that make human feces so malodorous. F.c. is, however, more pungent that F.i. though its scent doesn't waft about the garden in the same way. Do not, under any circumstances, cut F.c. for the house. You will need a gas mask to re-enter once the flowers have warmed up and starting smelling. Does anyone know just what class of compounds give these plants their scent, btw.? -- Rodger Whitlock Victoria, British Columbia, Canada Maritime Zone 8, a cool Mediterranean climate on beautiful Vancouver Island http://maps.google.ca/maps?q=48.4676,-123.3262&ll=48.4676,-123.3262&z=14 From crinum@libero.it Mon Jan 12 04:44:27 2009 Message-Id: From: "Alberto Grossi" Subject: Westonbirt Plants Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2009 10:44:15 +0100 Thank you Arnold, but the list is not updated to 2009, but to 2007, if I have well seen and read. Alberto ---------- Initial Header ----------- From : pbs-bounces@lists.ibiblio.org To : "Pacific Bulb Society" pbs@lists.ibiblio.org Cc : Date : Sun, 11 Jan 2009 18:30:05 -0500 Subject : Re: [pbs] Westonbirt Plants > Alberto: > > Here is the link. > > http://www.westonbirtplants.co.uk/ > > Arnold > _______________________________________________ > pbs mailing list > pbs@lists.ibiblio.org > http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php > http://pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki > Alberto Grossi Italy From B.J.M.Zonneveld@biology.leidenuniv.nl Mon Jan 12 05:29:18 2009 Message-Id: <8E19E8A2233ED74D8483ACF3FBB3603B02576F84@iblmail.ibl.leidenuniv.nl> From: "B.J.M. Zonneveld" Subject: Cedric Morris Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2009 11:29:15 +0100 Cedric Morris is a tetraploid form of N asturiensis ( ssp vilarvildensis) just as N. lagoi From davidxvictor@btinternet.com Mon Jan 12 07:46:11 2009 Message-Id: <20090112124610.575E44C016@lists.ibiblio.org> From: David Victor Subject: Westonbirt plants Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2009 12:43:12 +0000 Hi Alberto, The web address that Arnold sent appears out of date - it refers to 2007 - so be wary. This is a small, one-man nursery without office staff, but with very good material. I'll send you his email list separately. If anyone else would like it, please contact me. Best regards, David Victor From brian.whyer@btinternet.com Mon Jan 12 08:08:19 2009 Message-Id: <276935.57542.qm@web86306.mail.ird.yahoo.com> From: Brian Whyer Subject: Westonbirt plants Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2009 13:07:59 +0000 (GMT) Yes please David. I am reluctant to call Westonbirt, with such a small staff.   Many thanks   Brian Whyer, High Wycombe --- On Mon, 12/1/09, David Victor wrote: From: David Victor Subject: Re: [pbs] Westonbirt plants To: pbs@lists.ibiblio.org Date: Monday, 12 January, 2009, 12:43 PM Hi Alberto, The web address that Arnold sent appears out of date - it refers to 2007 - so be wary. This is a small, one-man nursery without office staff, but with very good material. I'll send you his email list separately. If anyone else would like it, please contact me. Best regards, David Victor _______________________________________________ pbs mailing list pbs@lists.ibiblio.org http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php http://pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki From brian.whyer@btinternet.com Mon Jan 12 08:10:17 2009 Message-Id: <649367.18925.qm@web86301.mail.ird.yahoo.com> From: Brian Whyer Subject: Engage brain before hitting reply. (Westonbirt list) Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2009 13:10:11 +0000 (GMT) Apologies. From jwaddick@kc.rr.com Mon Jan 12 10:34:31 2009 Message-Id: From: James Waddick Subject: Cedric Morris Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2009 09:34:33 -0600 >Cedric Morris is a tetraploid form of N asturiensis ( ssp >vilarvildensis) just as N. lagoi >_______________________________________________ Thanks for this info. Can anyone suggest a source for bulbs of the species N. asturiensis ? And tell me more about N. lagoi. This is not on the Wiki and Googl doesn't offer much more. Does ANYONE grow this one? Thanks Jim W. -- Dr. James W. Waddick 8871 NW Brostrom Rd. Kansas City Missouri 64152-2711 USA Ph. 816-746-1949 Zone 5 Record low -23F Summer 100F + From plicht@berkeley.edu Mon Jan 12 13:23:01 2009 Message-Id: <496B8A7C.8040503@berkeley.edu> From: Paul Licht Subject: Brunsvigia grandiflora/ Expensive bulbs on eBay Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2009 10:22:52 -0800 I've often marveled at what some dealers are getting on eBay. I recently saw a single Amorphophallus titanum seed go for $65. Here at the UC Botanical Garden, we have been selling 1 year old titan arum seedlings for $25-$30 and will be offering the tubers for similar prices (or less) when the plants are dormant, although it does annoy me when we see our sales reappear on eBay at greatly inflated prices as Marilyn mentioned. I have some 2 year old Brunsvigia grandiflora seedlings that we would probably sell for $5. I'm more excited by some nice large 3 year old Brunsvigia josephine (go for $10 or less depending on size) but my real pride and joy are the Babiana ringens. The B.ringens are 3 years old but I have no idea of when they will be mature; they are definitely slower than all the other Babiana I have dealt with. Anyone have experience with these? Another comment on eBay in general. We have discovered that illegally imported material is sometimes offered. Fish and Wildlife has actually brought us material they got off eBay to help identify. Some is likely smuggled CITES material, especially with succulents. I suggest checking with known sources before relying on eBay. Paul pbs-request@lists.ibiblio.org wrote: > Send pbs mailing list submissions to > pbs@lists.ibiblio.org > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > pbs-request@lists.ibiblio.org > > You can reach the person managing the list at > pbs-owner@lists.ibiblio.org > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > than "Re: Contents of pbs digest..." > > > List-Post:<mailto:pbs@lists.ibiblio.org> > List-Archive:<http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/pbslist> > > Today's Topics: > > 1. Re: Westonbirt Plants (David Victor) > 2. Re: Westonbirt Plants (Alberto Grossi) > 3. Common Names (James Waddick) > 4. Re: Westonbirt Plants (Arnold Trachtenberg) > 5. Re: Email from Westonbirt Plants ??? (Maria Standard) > 6. Re: Common Names (Jim McKenney) > 7. Iris unguicularis (Jim McKenney) > 8. I would like to have one of these... (hheaven77@aol.com) > 9. Re: Iris unguicularis (Rick) > 10. Re: I would like to have one of these... (Marilyn Pekasky) > 11. Brunsvigia grandiflora/Sources (Mary Sue Ittner) > 12. Re: Brunsvigia grandiflora/Sources (lamon ready) > 13. Re: I would like to have one of these... (Justin Smith) > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Message: 1 > Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2009 19:59:07 +0000 > From: David Victor > Subject: Re: [pbs] Westonbirt Plants > To: pbs@lists.ibiblio.org > Message-ID: <20090111195958.CE4874C00F@lists.ibiblio.org> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed > > Hi everyone, > > They are a very good, specialist bulb nursery based in > Worcestershire, England, and run by Tony Dickerson. Their Spring > 2009 list has just been sent out be email. > > Best regards, > David Victor > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 2 > Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2009 21:03:02 +0100 > From: "Alberto Grossi" > Subject: Re: [pbs] Westonbirt Plants > To: "pbs" > Message-ID: > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 > > Hi David, may you share the link? Thank you > > Alberto > > ---------- Initial Header ----------- > > >From : pbs-bounces@lists.ibiblio.org > To : pbs@lists.ibiblio.org > Cc : > Date : Sun, 11 Jan 2009 19:59:07 +0000 > Subject : Re: [pbs] Westonbirt Plants > > > > > > > > >> Hi everyone, >> >> They are a very good, specialist bulb nursery based in >> Worcestershire, England, and run by Tony Dickerson. Their Spring >> 2009 list has just been sent out be email. >> >> Best regards, >> David Victor >> >> _______________________________________________ >> pbs mailing list >> pbs@lists.ibiblio.org >> http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php >> http://pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki >> >> > > Alberto Grossi > Italy > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 3 > Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2009 17:12:40 -0600 > From: James Waddick > Subject: [pbs] Common Names > To: Pacific Bulb Society > Message-ID: > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" > > Dear Friends, > The recent request for info on : "skunk lily, chocolate lily, > castor seed" left me a bit befuddled. > > I had no idea what a skunk lily is and no one responded in > kind. A quick search came up with Fritillaria camschatcensis. > Pacific Rim Native Plant Nursery does not use this common name at all > and claims they are edible. Another site referred to it as 'Dirty > Diaper Lily' a particularly unfortunate combination. Let's review; > edible and smells like dirty diaper - I don't relish a serving of > this botanical treat. > > The scent of rotting meat (according to PRNP) sounds much > preferable to other common names including outhouse lily. > > Maybe I am missing something, but surely there is a reason to > grow these. Tell me. > > Maybe it is too mid-winter to appreciate the subtlety. > > Best JIm W. > From bluemoon@pgtc.com Mon Jan 12 13:56:42 2009 Message-Id: <17D0776B7EF146509C26F94BD098F915@AngelHaven> From: "Michael Thompson" Subject: Brunsvigia grandiflora/Sources Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2009 12:56:24 -0600 Hi All I'll come out of lurk mode for a minute here....... seeing this thread about the Brunsvigia grandiflora, I just saw where this same seller just sold a medium sized bulb of Cyrtanthus obliquus for a whopping $255!!! but what can I say, anything he lists goes for outrageous amounts.. Okay, back to Lurk mode! Michael > > hi all, > diane (telos) is out of lycoris rosea. anybody out there have several that > they would be willing to adopt out to a new home. i've been wanting them > for several years now. any help? > thanks, lamon > > > > > > Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2009 20:04:49 -0800> To: pbs@lists.ibiblio.org> From: > > msittner@mcn.org> Subject: [pbs] Brunsvigia grandiflora/Sources> > I > > ordered seeds from the BX in 2000 for $2 of Brunsvigia grandiflora. In > > > 2007 they bloomed and they bloomed again this year. I ended up with 9 > > seeds > germinating from that first BX. Rhoda and Cameron McMaster > > donated seeds in > 2003 to the PBS list (everyone, not just the members > > of Pacific Bulb > Society). Again the price was $2 per packet. We are > > really fortunate to > have generous people in our group who donate some > > real gems to the BX. > Those three year old Brunsvigias may not even be > > blooming size. I imagine > there are a number of very reliable sources > > in the US that are much cheaper > for Brunsvigias than eBay including > > some members of our list like Diana > Chapman (Telos) and Dylan Hannon.> > > > Mary Sue> >I was a little shocked to see a three year "Rare Brunsvigia > > grandiflora - > >Stunning Candelabra Lily"? sell for $71.00 on > > eBay today.?> > _______________________________________________> pbs > mailing list> pbs@lists.ibiblio.org> > http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php> > http://pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki > _______________________________________________ > pbs mailing list > pbs@lists.ibiblio.org > http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php > http://pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki > From msittner@mcn.org Mon Jan 12 14:02:38 2009 Message-Id: <5.2.0.9.2.20090112105456.0320bf90@mail.mcn.org> From: Mary Sue Ittner Subject: Robert Parker Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2009 10:57:41 -0800 Hi, Does anyone on this list have any news of Robert Parker? (from Los Angeles) He has been a member of the Pacific Bulb Society from the beginning, but his telephone has been disconnected and his email address is no longer working. Any Southern California members who might know anything? Mary Sue From hornig@earthlink.net Mon Jan 12 14:05:50 2009 Message-Id: <7162563.1231787148382.JavaMail.root@mswamui-cedar.atl.sa.earthlink.net> From: Ellen Hornig Subject: Cyrtanthus obliquus (was Re: Brunsvigia grandiflora/Sources) Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2009 14:05:47 -0500 (GMT-05:00) Hmmm. That may explain why mine sold out so fast at $19.99. Next time... Ellen -----Original Message----- >From: Michael Thompson >Sent: Jan 12, 2009 1:56 PM >To: Pacific Bulb Society >Subject: Re: [pbs] Brunsvigia grandiflora/Sources > >Hi All >I'll come out of lurk mode for a minute here....... seeing this thread about >the Brunsvigia grandiflora, I just saw where this same seller just sold a >medium sized bulb of Cyrtanthus obliquus for a whopping $255!!! but what >can I say, anything he lists goes for outrageous amounts.. > >Okay, back to Lurk mode! >Michael > > Seneca Hill Perennials 3712 Co. Rt. 57 Oswego NY 13126 Phone: 315-342-5915 Fax: 315-342-5573 www.senecahillperennials.com From janemcgary@earthlink.net Mon Jan 12 14:15:11 2009 Message-Id: From: Jane McGary Subject: Iris unguicularis Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2009 11:15:01 -0800 As Rodger noted, Iris lazica is more cold-hardy than the related I. unguicularis, and also more tolerant of winter wet (it comes from the part of Turkey near the Black Sea coast, which Brian Mathew once observed has the climate most like that of the American Pacific Northwest). I obtained I. lazica many years ago from Avon Bulbs in England, and have distributed it particularly to nursery growers in this area, so it's getting around. I find that if planted in full sun it flowers heavily but the leaves tend to sunburn; in shade, it is a prettier foliage plant (it's evergreen) but flowers less. It is a great weed-suppressing cover plant and contrasts nicely with other foliage. The main problem is that slugs eat the flowers. It is very easy to propagate by division in early fall or probably any time of year. The flowers are not quite as fragrant as those of I. unguicularis. I also grow I cretensis, or I. unguicularis ssp cretensis, in the garden, where it has survived temperatures in the mid-teens F but does not flower nearly as well as the plants I saw in the wild. Jane McGary Northwestern Oregon, USA At 09:46 PM 1/11/2009, you wrote: >On 11 Jan 2009, at 19:49, Jim McKenney wrote: > > > ...Iris lazica, which enjoys a cushier life in the protected cold > frame, has > > yet to bloom here (ever). > >Well, would *you* blooom if you were cooped up in a protected cold frame? > >[At this moment, I have a vision of Jim in a tutu performing "Dance of the >Flowers". Look, mommy, at the funny man: he's blooming!] > >Plant it out. > >I've got a few clumps of I. lazica scattered around the place, and afaict >they're bone hardy. They don't need the same sunny baking that I. >unguicularis >seems to prefer. From toadlily@olywa.net Mon Jan 12 14:32:06 2009 Message-Id: <496B9AB7.2090904@olywa.net> From: Laura & Dave Subject: Email from Westonbirt Plants ??? Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2009 11:32:07 -0800 Hello and thanks for all the replies regarding Westorbirt Plants. Showing once again the great value and reach of the PBS list, I just received this very cordial and informative note. (I was) forwarded your message re; Westonbirt Plants on the PBS discussion list. This is our family business and is the latest list. Due to technical difficulties the web site has not been updated and will probably be replaced when time permits. I would need to speak to my brother about how you were emailed but usually it's a case of people contacting him and asking for a catalogue or list to be sent to friends/contacts. I can get him to remove you from any mailing lists but can I recommend the Autumn list - its one of the few that comes close to offering any competition to Paul Christian and in many genera totally out eclipses him. Kind regards Tony Dickerson So, that clears that up. No more than normal precautions appear to be needed regarding the email and its attachments. So, if anyone would like to have the information forwarded, please contact me OFF LIST. Thanks Dave Brastow toadlily@olywa.net From zigur@hotmail.com Mon Jan 12 14:34:03 2009 Message-Id: From: Tim Harvey Subject: Babiana ringens - was Brunsvigia grandiflora/ Expensive bulbs on eBay Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2009 11:34:01 -0800 I have grown B. ringens for several years, and have 3rd generation seedlings currently. I grow them in the ground where they flower in about 3 years from seed. I can't say I've noticed it behaving any different from other Babiana species I have. Tim in Thousand Oaks.The B.ringens are 3 years old but > I have no idea of when they will be mature; they are definitely slower > than all the other Babiana I have dealt with. Anyone have experience > with these?> From Theladygardens@aol.com Mon Jan 12 14:37:31 2009 Message-Id: From: Theladygardens@aol.com Subject: Brunsvigia grandiflora/Sources & e bay seller Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2009 14:37:11 EST I have discovered that there are some people who value the cost more than the flower. They somehow are convinced it's better or they are better for paying so much. A few years ago, I met a woman who lives near me and has an orchid collection. She buys each plant from the same person and pays several hundred dollars for each individual plant. I tried to tell her about the San Francisco Orchid Show and sale and what wonderful plants and prices were there. She is not at all interested as she is convinced her orchids are rare and not something the common person could buy at the SF show. They are not. I'm not sure which she enjoys the most, the orchid or telling how much she spent for it. I have not kept in touch with her so have no idea if she is still doing this. Carolyn **************A Good Credit Score is 700 or Above. See yours in just 2 easy steps! (http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/100000075x1215855013x1201028747/aol?redir=http://www.freecreditreport.com/pm/default.aspx?sc=668072%26hmpgID=62%26bcd=De cemailfooterNO62) From zigur@hotmail.com Mon Jan 12 14:37:50 2009 Message-Id: From: Tim Harvey Subject: Cyrtanthus obliquus (was Re: Brunsvigia grandiflora/Sources) Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2009 11:37:48 -0800 Hah! On the west coast I can't seem to move them for that price ... T> Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2009 14:05:47 -0500> From: hornig@earthlink.net> To: pbs@lists.ibiblio.org> Subject: [pbs] Cyrtanthus obliquus (was Re: Brunsvigia grandiflora/Sources)> > Hmmm. That may explain why mine sold out so fast at $19.99. Next time...> > Ellen> From info@auchgourishbotanicgarden.org Mon Jan 12 15:06:13 2009 Message-Id: <92793245A16343058B224FD81EF82475@homepc> From: Subject: Westonbirt Plants Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2009 20:06:22 -0000 This is a small highly specialised nursery in the south of England and Tony Dickerson imports amazing botanical species of bulbous plants not normally available unless grown yourself from seed. I have dealt with Tony for years and always have a good relationship. Of any such problems as may arise, these are to do with the speed at which particular species are gobbled up by the cognoscenti. Tony does not accept 'phone calls or enter into timewaisting debate, he only replies by e-mail usually by which time the stock has gone, whether imported or grown by himself and he does NOT sell seed. Tony works for a very famous establishment which I am not at liberty to reveal but to sum him up .....A1 First Class ! Iain -- I am using the free version of SPAMfighter. We are a community of 5.8 million users fighting spam. SPAMfighter has removed 42470 of my spam emails to date. Get the free SPAMfighter here: http://www.spamfighter.com/len The Professional version does not have this message From hornig@earthlink.net Mon Jan 12 15:07:36 2009 Message-Id: <87CE38A352C147FA88162DABD55FFB77@ellenPC> From: "Ellen Hornig" Subject: Cyrtanthus obliquus (was Re: Brunsvigia grandiflora/Sources) Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2009 15:12:38 -0500 So, Tim, you just need to charge more. I know this is off topic, so I'll be brief, but I used to have a friend who dealt in better antiques, and she once told me that if something didn't sell the thing to do was put it away for a while and then bring it out at a *higher* price. Seems some people feel more confident that they're getting the genuine article when they pay more for it. Strange but true. Ellen Ellen Hornig Seneca Hill Perennials 3712 County Route 57 Oswego NY 13126 USA www.senecahillperennials.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tim Harvey" To: "Bulb Society Pacific" Sent: Monday, January 12, 2009 2:37 PM Subject: Re: [pbs] Cyrtanthus obliquus (was Re: Brunsvigia grandiflora/Sources) > > Hah! On the west coast I can't seem to move them for that price ... > > T> Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2009 14:05:47 -0500> From: hornig@earthlink.net> To: > pbs@lists.ibiblio.org> Subject: [pbs] Cyrtanthus obliquus (was Re: > Brunsvigia grandiflora/Sources)> > Hmmm. That may explain why mine sold > out so fast at $19.99. Next time...> > Ellen> > _______________________________________________ > pbs mailing list > pbs@lists.ibiblio.org > http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php > http://pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki From ptyerman@ozemail.com.au Mon Jan 12 15:16:06 2009 Message-Id: <7fc9qv$d3irpe@outbound.icp-qv1-irony-out1.iinet.net.au> From: "Paul T." Subject: Narcissus lagoi Date: Tue, 13 Jan 2009 07:15:46 +1100 At 02:34 AM 13/01/2009, you wrote: > >Cedric Morris is a tetraploid form of N asturiensis ( ssp > >vilarvildensis) just as N. lagoi > >_______________________________________________ > >Thanks for this info. > > Can anyone suggest a source for bulbs of the species N. asturiensis ? > > And tell me more about N. lagoi. This is not on the Wiki and >Googl doesn't offer much more. > Does ANYONE grow this one? Jim, Bryan Duncan in the UK offered seed of it this year (I ordered some, that is why I know of it ). He had some fascinating Narcissus seed available. We had a discussion on it on the Scottish Rock Garden Club a few months ago. I can dig up more information on his offerings if you're interested? Cheers. Paul T. Canberra, Australia - USDA Zone Equivalent approx. 8/9 Growing an eclectic collection of plants from all over the world including Aroids, Crocus, Cyclamen, Erythroniums, Fritillarias, Galanthus, Irises, Trilliums (to name but a few) and just about anything else that doesn't move!! From info@auchgourishbotanicgarden.org Mon Jan 12 15:23:07 2009 Message-Id: From: Subject: Skunk lily Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2009 20:23:18 -0000 It never fails to amaze me why or how some of the common names arise in some parts of the world. Googling "Skunk Lily" is a revelation. The proper botanical name is Fritillaria camschatcensis which is found growing over a wide area in Japan and the Russian far East as well as across the Baring Straight into Alaska and probably parts of neighbouring Canada. In Russia the common name is "Sarana Lily" or the "Black Lily". There are two forms known to me, one of which has an albino colour form which oddly is yellow. Our plants here are from Russia and they have not got the slightest sense of any unpleasant smell, one of my contacts in England grows the North American provenance of this species and tonight he tells me he cannot tell any sign of a bad smell. Odd! It does pose the question though, what was the person doing, what was his/her thing if they came up with a name like "Dirty Nappy/Diaper Lily" Verily the mind doth boggle greatly, yuk! Iain -- I am using the free version of SPAMfighter. We are a community of 5.8 million users fighting spam. SPAMfighter has removed 42470 of my spam emails to date. Get the free SPAMfighter here: http://www.spamfighter.com/len The Professional version does not have this message From janemcgary@earthlink.net Mon Jan 12 15:45:20 2009 Message-Id: From: Jane McGary Subject: Narcissus lagoi Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2009 12:45:10 -0800 Jim and Jenny Archibald offer seeds of many species of Narcissus, including recent wild collections from Spain. Their list is now only offered as hard copy, and can be requested from : jimarchibald@jjaseeds.com Jim does not have time to answer e-mail correspondence, however. I have grown many narcissi from their seeds, which germinate well. This is one of the easiest bulbous genera to grow from seed, and I am amazed that more people don't do so and instead seek bulbs. Of course, since I sell the bulbs, that is to my advantage, but I don't charge the high prices that some specialists do, because these plants are mostly easy to grow and increase moderately to rapidly. Jane McGary From janemcgary@earthlink.net Mon Jan 12 15:50:32 2009 Message-Id: From: Jane McGary Subject: Ian Young at the Western Winter Study Weekend Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2009 12:50:19 -0800 If you've ever visited Ian Young's Bulb Log on the website of the Scottish Rock Garden Club, you will know that he's as dedicated as any of us to growing geophytes, and has a great way of presenting his knowledge too. He will be giving two presentations at the NARGS Western Winter Study Weekend in Portland, Oregon, March 13-15 2009. We welcome everyone to this meeting, which will also feature a talk by John Lonsdale, along with a number of talks focusing on how to design gardens, especially small ones, to accommodate small, unusual plants such as rock gardeners love. For information on the meeting, go to www.nargs.org/meet/west09home.html or write to the registrar, Jan Dobak, at jddobak@pcez.com Registration is just $225 for the three-day event, which includes a banquet, breakfasts, and a huge plant sale. Bulbs will be in flower in many of the featured open gardens, including mine. With best wishes, Jane McGary From tversted@email.dk Mon Jan 12 16:22:43 2009 Message-Id: <33456C742704466697B193B35149501A@EjerPC> From: "Martin Ravn Tversted" Subject: Cyrtanthus obliquus (was Re: Brunsvigia Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2009 22:23:26 +0100 I have the first 50 C obliquus here. 2 years more of cultivation and then: 255 x 50... Time for a another greenhouse? Martin From markmazerandfm13@earthlink.net Mon Jan 12 17:34:56 2009 Message-Id: <11187849.1231799696072.JavaMail.root@elwamui-polski.atl.sa.earthlink.net> From: Mark Mazer Subject: Babiana ringens / was Brunsvigia grandiflora/ Expensive bulbs on eBay Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2009 17:34:55 -0500 (GMT-05:00) ) but my real >pride and joy are the Babiana ringens. The B.ringens are 3 years old but >I have no idea of when they will be mature; they are definitely slower >than all the other Babiana I have dealt with. Anyone have experience >with these? Hi Paul, I grow Babiana ringens. Seed was from Silverhill in 2000 or 2001 and the plants first bloomed in 2007 and set seed in 2008. As there are no sunbirds in the greenhouse, I don't know what the pollinator was. Seed was sown May 2008, watered in mid-September, and germinated in October. These plants have the typical pleated, stiff leaves, a glaucus tinge, and are quite attractive out of bloom and superb when flowering. If I get seed this year, I'd love to exchange some with you. Mark Mazer Hertford, North Carolina USA Zone 7b-8 From ds429@comcast.net Mon Jan 12 18:45:35 2009 Message-Id: <000101c9750f$dd7a2a60$986e7f20$@net> From: "Dell Sherk" Subject: Ian Young at the Western Winter Study Weekend Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2009 18:45:35 -0500 I will be there, Jane, and I hope to meet many PBS folks and learn about rock gardening, which has always been my secret love. Dell -----Original Message----- From: pbs-bounces@lists.ibiblio.org [mailto:pbs-bounces@lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf Of Jane McGary Sent: Monday, January 12, 2009 3:50 PM To: Pacific Bulb Society Subject: [pbs] Ian Young at the Western Winter Study Weekend If you've ever visited Ian Young's Bulb Log on the website of the Scottish Rock Garden Club, you will know that he's as dedicated as any of us to growing geophytes, and has a great way of presenting his knowledge too. He will be giving two presentations at the NARGS Western Winter Study Weekend in Portland, Oregon, March 13-15 2009. We welcome everyone to this meeting, which will also feature a talk by John Lonsdale, along with a number of talks focusing on how to design gardens, especially small ones, to accommodate small, unusual plants such as rock gardeners love. For information on the meeting, go to www.nargs.org/meet/west09home.html or write to the registrar, Jan Dobak, at jddobak@pcez.com Registration is just $225 for the three-day event, which includes a banquet, breakfasts, and a huge plant sale. Bulbs will be in flower in many of the featured open gardens, including mine. With best wishes, Jane McGary _______________________________________________ pbs mailing list pbs@lists.ibiblio.org http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php http://pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki From HHeaven77@aol.com Mon Jan 12 20:23:38 2009 Message-Id: <8CB4334A8C2306C-1A8-13B4@mblk-d32.sysops.aol.com> From: hheaven77@aol.com Subject: Brunsvigia grandiflora/ Expensive bulbs on eBay Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2009 20:23:22 -0500 Hi Paul, I am mainly a lurker on eBay although I have purchased a thing or two (like running shoes).? There are no guarantees on eBay, I may have purchased "knock-off" shoes! Save some Brunsvigia and Babiana for me! Celeste -----Original Message----- From: Paul Licht To: pbs@lists.ibiblio.org Sent: Mon, 12 Jan 2009 11:22 am Subject: [pbs] Brunsvigia grandiflora/ Expensive bulbs on eBay I've often marveled at what some dealers are getting on eBay. I recently saw a single Amorphophallus titanum seed go for $65. Here at the UC Botanical Garden, we have been selling 1 year old titan arum seedlings for $25-$30 and will be offering the tubers for similar prices (or less) when the plants are dormant, although it does annoy me when we see our sales reappear on eBay at greatly inflated prices as Marilyn mentioned. I have some 2 year old Brunsvigia grandiflora seedlings that we would probably sell for $5. I'm more excited by some nice large 3 year old Brunsvigia josephine (go for $10 or less depending on size) but my real pride and joy are the Babiana ringens. The B.ringens are 3 years old but I have no idea of when they will be mature; they are definitely slower than all the other Babiana I have dealt with. Anyone have experience with these? Another comment on eBay in general. We have discovered that illegally imported material is sometimes offered. Fish and Wildlife has actually brought us material they got off eBay to help identify. Some is likely smuggled CITES material, especially with succulents. I suggest checking with known sources before relying on eBay. Paul pbs-request@lists.ibiblio.org wrote: > Send pbs mailing list submissions to > pbs@lists.ibiblio.org > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > pbs-request@lists.ibiblio.org > > You can reach the person managing the list at > pbs-owner@lists.ibiblio.org > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > than "Re: Contents of pbs digest..." > > > List-Post: > List-Archive: > > Today's Topics: > > 1. Re: Westonbirt Plants (David Victor) > 2. Re: Westonbirt Plants (Alberto Grossi) > 3. Common Names (James Waddick) > 4. Re: Westonbirt Plants (Arnold Trachtenberg) > 5. Re: Email fr om Westonbirt Plants ??? (Maria Standard) > 6. Re: Common Names (Jim McKenney) > 7. Iris unguicularis (Jim McKenney) > 8. I would like to have one of these... (hheaven77@aol.com) > 9. Re: Iris unguicularis (Rick) > 10. Re: I would like to have one of these... (Marilyn Pekasky) > 11. Brunsvigia grandiflora/Sources (Mary Sue Ittner) > 12. Re: Brunsvigia grandiflora/Sources (lamon ready) > 13. Re: I would like to have one of these... (Justin Smith) > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Message: 1 > Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2009 19:59:07 +0000 > From: David Victor > Subject: Re: [pbs] Westonbirt Plants > To: pbs@lists.ibiblio.org > Message-ID: <20090111195958.CE4874C00F@lists.ibiblio.org> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed > > Hi everyone, > > They are a very good, specialist bulb nursery based in > Worcestershire, England, and run by Tony Dickerson. Their Spring > 2009 list has just been sent out be email. > > Best regards, > David Victor > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 2 > Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2009 21:03:02 +0100 > From: "Alberto Grossi" > Subject: Re: [pbs] Westonbirt Plants > To: "pbs" > Message-ID: > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 > > Hi David, may you share the link? Thank you > > Alberto > > ---------- Initial Header ----------- > > >From : pbs-bounces@lists.ibiblio.org > To : pbs@lists.ibiblio.org > Cc : > Date : Sun, 11 Jan 2009 19:59:07 +0000 > Subject : Re: [pbs] Westonbirt Plants > > > > > > > > >> Hi everyone, >> >> They are a very good, specialist bulb nursery based in >> Worcestershire, England, and run by Tony Dickerson. Their Spring >> 2009 list has just been sent out be email. >> >> Best regards, >> David Victor >> >> _______________________________________________ >> pbs mailing list >> pbs@lists.ibiblio.org >> http://li sts.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/pbs >> http://pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki >> >> > > Alberto Grossi > Italy > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 3 > Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2009 17:12:40 -0600 > From: James Waddick > Subject: [pbs] Common Names > To: Pacific Bulb Society > Message-ID: > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" > > Dear Friends, > The recent request for info on : "skunk lily, chocolate lily, > castor seed" left me a bit befuddled. > > I had no idea what a skunk lily is and no one responded in > kind. A quick search came up with Fritillaria camschatcensis. > Pacific Rim Native Plant Nursery does not use this common name at all > and claims they are edible. Another site referred to it as 'Dirty > Diaper Lily' a particularly unfortunate combination. Let's review; > edible and smells like dirty diaper - I don't relish a serving of > this botanical treat. > > The scent of rotting meat (according to PRNP) sounds much > preferable to other common names including outhouse lily. > > Maybe I am missing something, but surely there is a reason to > grow these. Tell me. > > Maybe it is too mid-winter to appreciate the subtlety. > > Best JIm W. > _______________________________________________ pbs mailing list pbs@lists.ibiblio.org http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php http://pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki From HHeaven77@aol.com Mon Jan 12 20:46:07 2009 Message-Id: <8CB4337CC03D456-1A8-151E@mblk-d32.sysops.aol.com> From: hheaven77@aol.com Subject: Babiana ringens / was Brunsvigia grandiflora/ Expensive bulbs on eBay Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2009 20:45:50 -0500 Gosh, if people are going to sell you seeds or plants, they should throw a pollinator in for free!!! Celeste Hi Paul, I grow Babiana ringens. Seed was from Silverhill in 2000 or 2001 and the plants first bloomed in 2007 and set seed in 2008. As there are no sunbirds in the greenhouse, I don't know what the pollinator was. Seed was sown May 2008, watered in mid-September, and germinated in October. These plants have the typical pleated, stiff leaves, a glaucus tinge, and are quite attractive out of bloom and superb when flowering. If I get seed this year, I'd love to exchange some with you. Mark Mazer Hertford, North Carolina USA Zone 7b-8 _______________________________________________ pbs mailing list pbs@lists.ibiblio.org http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php http://pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki From ggroiti@agro.uba.ar Tue Jan 13 06:35:12 2009 Message-Id: <97afeaf70901130335i3abcadfehf8d5006666bf802f@mail.gmail.com> From: "ggroiti ." Subject: novelties in Southamerican bulb plants Date: Tue, 13 Jan 2009 08:35:05 -0300 Hello all: I ´ve been busy this last 8 months developing a plant nursery specialized in herbaceous plants, including bulbs, but also in publishing, with Alberto Castillo, some new species and combinations in Iridaceae and Amaryllidaceae of South America. Here you can download the pdf files of the papers: Habranthus correntinus a new species from Argentina: http://www.verdesencia.com.ar/papers/habranthus_correntinus_SAB.pdf Habranthus neumannii a new species from Argentina: http://www.verdesencia.com.ar/papers/Habranthus_neumannii_darwiniana.pdf New combinations in Iridaceae from Brazil and Uruguay: http://www.verdesencia.com.ar/papers/novedadesconosurdarwiniana.pdf Evidence of why Tamia should be included in Calydorea http://www.verdesencia.com.ar/papers/tamia_syst_bot.pdf An finally a new species of Herbertia from Argentina and Brazil: http://www.verdesencia.com.ar/papers/herbertia_darwinii_SAB.pdf Hope you can download them, if not tell me and i can send the files. I will try to download pictures of the new species in the wiki page. Best wishes Germán From carlobal@netzero.net Tue Jan 13 06:46:22 2009 Message-Id: <20090113.064515.22144.0@webmail12.vgs.untd.com> From: "carlobal@netzero.net" Subject: novelties in Southamerican bulb plants Date: Tue, 13 Jan 2009 11:45:15 GMT Congratulations...and best wishes on the nursery endeavor. Carlo A. Balistrieri The Gardens at Turtle Point Tuxedo Park, NY 10987 Zone 6 (845.351.2849) Visit: www.botanicalgardening.com and its BGBlog From msittner@mcn.org Tue Jan 13 10:44:02 2009 Message-Id: <5.2.0.9.2.20090113073352.0366bd60@mail.mcn.org> From: Mary Sue Ittner Subject: NARGS Western Winter Study Meeting Date: Tue, 13 Jan 2009 07:39:27 -0800 Hi, Jane didn't mention that another member of our list, Carlo A. Balistrieri, is going to speak at this meeting and that a number of other members of our list have gardens that will be open for participants to visit. Is there any possibility that a short meeting of Pacific Bulb Society list/group members could be included some time informally so some of us could have a chance to associate names with faces? Mary Sue From oothal@hotmail.com Tue Jan 13 11:32:55 2009 Message-Id: From: Justin Smith Subject: novelties in Southamerican bulb plants Date: Tue, 13 Jan 2009 10:32:53 -0600 Great job! Herbertia darwinii is most impressive! Justin Woodville, TX 8b/9a _________________________________________________________________ Windows Live™: Keep your life in sync. http://windowslive.com/explore?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_t1_allup_explore_012009 From hansennursery@coosnet.com Tue Jan 13 11:35:48 2009 Message-Id: <41601.69.1.97.227.1231864545.squirrel@mail.coosnet.com> From: hansennursery@coosnet.com Subject: NARGS Western Winter Study Meeting Date: Tue, 13 Jan 2009 08:35:45 -0800 (PST) There will be about 30 vendors at the NARGS meeting,including me (Hansen Nursery - cyclamen). And I would love to get together with PBS members, as I haven't met very many of you! If we can schedule it for a time when plant sales are not going on, that would be wonderful! Robin Hansen North Bend, Oregon Hansen Nursery From jwaddick@kc.rr.com Tue Jan 13 13:29:40 2009 Message-Id: From: James Waddick Subject: Crinum 'Elizabeth Traub' Date: Tue, 13 Jan 2009 11:47:30 -0600 Dear Friends, I have been wondering about the hardiness of Crinum 'Elizabeth Traub'. This is supposedly a hybrid of "Ellen Bousanquet' x C. scabrum. Both are marginal here - they survive, but bloom every other year or less. Any chance Crinum 'Elizabeth Traub' is any hardier than just 'Ellen B' ? Anyone have experience with both and in a cold climate. By the way 'Ellen B' x bulbispermum produced 'Super Ellen' which is very hardy and a winner. Thanks for info. Jim W. -- Dr. James W. Waddick 8871 NW Brostrom Rd. Kansas City Missouri 64152-2711 USA Ph. 816-746-1949 Zone 5 Record low -23F Summer 100F + From farmerguys08@gmail.com Tue Jan 13 13:18:26 2009 Message-Id: <0BD21521711D490CBE36EE4D4A4975EC@your4105e587b6> From: Paul Machado Subject: NARGS Western Winter Study Meeting Date: Tue, 13 Jan 2009 10:17:57 -0800 Hi all, Michael and I will be attending the NARGS meeting as well. As a number of PBS members will be there also, I think Mary Sue's suggestion about a short get together is a great idea. See you all there, Paul ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mary Sue Ittner" To: Sent: Tuesday, January 13, 2009 7:39 AM Subject: [pbs] NARGS Western Winter Study Meeting > Hi, > > Jane didn't mention that another member of our list, Carlo A. Balistrieri, > is going to speak at this meeting and that a number of other members of > our > list have gardens that will be open for participants to visit. Is there > any > possibility that a short meeting of Pacific Bulb Society list/group > members > could be included some time informally so some of us could have a chance > to > associate names with faces? > > Mary Sue > > _______________________________________________ > pbs mailing list > pbs@lists.ibiblio.org > http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php > http://pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki > From wpoulsen@pacbell.net Tue Jan 13 14:03:46 2009 Message-Id: <496CE57D.3070506@pacbell.net> From: Lee Poulsen Subject: novelties in Southamerican bulb plants Date: Tue, 13 Jan 2009 11:03:25 -0800 I'd like to reverse the sentiments, and add: Why did it take you so long to start a nursery (hopefully of a lot of Argentine/Uruguayan/southern Brazilian natives)!? ;-) Yay! [Now all we need is someone to do the same for Peru/Bolivia/Ecuador!] Thanks for the PDFs. --Lee Poulsen Pasadena, California, USDA Zone 10a carlobal@netzero.net wrote: > Congratulations...and best wishes on the nursery endeavor. ggroiti . wrote: > Hello all: > > I ´ve been busy this last 8 months developing a plant nursery specialized in > herbaceous plants, including bulbs, but also in publishing, with Alberto > Castillo... > From alanidae@gmail.com Tue Jan 13 14:40:45 2009 Message-Id: From: "Alani Davis" Subject: Crinum 'Elizabeth Traub' Date: Tue, 13 Jan 2009 14:40:43 -0500 Jim - The parentage of Elizabeth Traub as "Ellen Bousanquet' x C. scabrum is from Traub's own writings. It has been publishes as Ellen B. X Cecil Houdyshel, but this is apparently incorrect and I am not sure where it originated. It expresses a lot of characteristics that are more C. moorei like but this seems to happen often with Ellen B. as a parent. I really cannot tell you much about hardiness in your zone but would not expect much different results that Ellen B. It certainly is not of of the forms that "resists" colder temperatures here like Super Ellen or C. bulbispermum. Have you been able to try Super Ellen's sister seedling SunBonnet? It is a really dark colored flower and richer than Ellen B. How do hybrids with a quarter C. bulbispermum contribution such as Walter Flory or Summerglow do for you? These are Ellen B. X C. Xpowellii crosses that may have more hardiness that Ellen B. or Elizabeth Traub. Other hybrids I would suspect would have good hardiness would be Carnival, Mardi Gras, Cape Dawn, and Claude Davis. Do you know if any of these perform in you climate? Alani Davis Tallahassee, Florida From jwaddick@kc.rr.com Tue Jan 13 16:29:37 2009 Message-Id: From: James Waddick Subject: OT: Epiphyllum/ Orchid Cactus Date: Tue, 13 Jan 2009 14:16:34 -0600 Dear Friends, I know this is way off topic, but I bet the S. Cal. contingent grows a variety of orchid cacti (Epiphyllum and hybrids). I have been idly thinking of getting a couple to try in my greenhouse. I know there's a ton of gorgeous hybrids in a range of colors, but I'd guess there's a few that are more reliable bloomers, good growers, easier to cultivate etc. I'd appreciate suggestion and advice from growers and a hint of good reliable sources. Please reply either here or if you think it is too OT direct to me at . Thanks much Jim W. -- Dr. James W. Waddick 8871 NW Brostrom Rd. Kansas City Missouri 64152-2711 USA Ph. 816-746-1949 Zone 5 Record low -23F Summer 100F + From toadlily@olywa.net Tue Jan 13 16:32:49 2009 Message-Id: <496D0858.300@olywa.net> From: Laura & Dave Subject: NARGS Western Winter Study Meeting Date: Tue, 13 Jan 2009 13:32:08 -0800 I also would very much enjoy meeting others of the PBS at the NARGS Winter Study Weekend. It would be the icing on an already rich cake! Dave Brastow From JmsJon664@aol.com Tue Jan 13 16:41:43 2009 Message-Id: <8CB43DEB925DE10-DCC-5D8@MBLK-M16.sysops.aol.com> From: jmsjon664@aol.com Subject: Epiphyllum Date: Tue, 13 Jan 2009 16:40:44 -0500 I grow Epiphyllum anguliger for 2 reasons: 1) Because I can -- it's hardy enough for my 32oF solar greenhouse; 2) It flowers (dependably) in autumn, meeting the requirement for fall or winter bloom. I got it from Logee's 5 yrs ago. Jim Jones Lexington, MA From to.sa@comhem.se Tue Jan 13 17:32:12 2009 Message-Id: <343373F9-3058-4365-81DC-1654F8F10407@comhem.se> From: Tomas Sandberg Subject: Namaquanula bruynsii Date: Tue, 13 Jan 2009 23:31:04 +0100 Hi, This species seems to be very unusual not much info about it anybody of you at PBS who knows about this species? Tomas S From to.sa@comhem.se Tue Jan 13 17:36:17 2009 Message-Id: From: Tomas Sandberg Subject: Namaquanula bruynsii Date: Tue, 13 Jan 2009 23:36:16 +0100 Hi, Anybody of you at PBS who knows about the species Namaquanula bruynsii? Tomas S From janemcgary@earthlink.net Tue Jan 13 17:57:41 2009 Message-Id: From: Jane McGary Subject: NARGS Western Winter Study Meeting Date: Tue, 13 Jan 2009 14:48:14 -0800 Mary Sue wrote: >Hi, > >Jane didn't mention that another member of our list, Carlo A. Balistrieri, >is going to speak at this meeting and that a number of other members of our >list have gardens that will be open for participants to visit. Is there any >possibility that a short meeting of Pacific Bulb Society list/group members >could be included some time informally so some of us could have a chance to >associate names with faces? Yes, I forgot Carlo is on the PBS list too. He will be giving two talks, one on garden design with stonework and another on plants useful in small gardens. He often presents programs in the eastern part of the country but this will be our first opportunity to hear him on the west coast. As for a meeting, we have two social periods with no-host bar scheduled in the times between the end of afternoon activities and the beginning of dinner Friday and Saturday, and perhaps we could post a notice by the registration table that PBS members can get together then. I just donated a pot of a fair number of bulbs of Galanthus reginae-olgae to the silent auction, so if you're coming, bring cash! We have arranged, after extreme difficulty, for Canadians to obtain phytosanitary certificates, but the inspector won't do it until Monday morning. He has been the dark cloud over this whole endeavor. Best wishes, Jane McGary From xerantheum@gmail.com Tue Jan 13 18:53:07 2009 Message-Id: From: "Nhu Nguyen" Subject: Latest wiki additions Date: Tue, 13 Jan 2009 15:53:04 -0800 Hello all, I wish everyone a happy New Year full of geophytic success! I have included here the links to the newest wiki additions. Most of my own photos are of tropical geophytes. Paul Licht provided a whole lot of photos from the UC Botanical Garden which I have also posted on the UC Botanical Garden page. Cheers! Nhu -- NEW GENERA/SPECIES to the wiki -- Alpinia boia Alpinia carolinensis Alpinia purpurata 'Pink' Alpinia zerumbet http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki/index.php/Alpinia Costus amazonicus Costus barbatus Costus lasius Costus osae Costus pulverulentus Costus stenophyllus Costus varziarum http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki/index.php/Costus Dioscorea elephantipes Dioscorea mexicana http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki/index.php/Dioscorea Eriospermum paradoxum Eriospermum sp. Eriospermum zeyheri http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki/index.php/Eriospermum Etlingera corneri http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki/index.php/Etlingera Heliconia caribaea Heliconia hirsuta 'Costa Flores' Heliconia indica Heliconia lennartiana Heliconia mutisiana Heliconia pendula Heliconia rostrata http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki/index.php/Heliconia Tapeinochilus ananassae http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki/index.php/Tapeinochilos Zephyranthes traubii http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki/index.php/Zephyranthes#traubii Sparaxis pillansii http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki/index.php/Sparaxis#pillansii -- NEW PHOTOS to the wiki -- Amaryllis worm - a great photo by Cameron McMaster showing a stripped caterpillar feeding on an Eriospermum leaf. http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki/index.php/Eriospermum#zeyheri Hippeastrum teyucarense x angustifolium - photo from Dell Sherk http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki/index.php/HippeastrumHybrids#teyucarense Trientalis latifolia http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki/index.php/Trientalis ---The following are photos from the UC Botanical Garden--- Amorphophallus konjac http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki/index.php/Amorphophallus Aristea africana http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki/index.php/Aristea#africana Babiaba ringens http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki/index.php/BabianaFour#ringens Begonia boliviensis http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki/index.php/Begonia Brunsvigia grandiflora http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki/index.php/Brunsvigia#grandiflora Brunsvigia marginata http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki/index.php/Brunsvigia#marginata Crocus laevigatus http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki/index.php/FallBloomingCrocusTwo#laevigatus Crocus niveus http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki/index.php/FallBloomingCrocusTwo#niveus Cypripedium californicum http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki/index.php/Cypripedium#californicum Doryanthes excelsa http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki/index.php/Doryanthes Doryanthes palmeri http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki/index.php/Doryanthes Erythronium multiscapoideum http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki/index.php/ErythroniumThree#multiscapoideum Eucharis x grandiflora http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki/index.php/Eucharis Gladiolus priorii http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki/index.php/SouthernAfricanGladiolusSeven#priorii Iris tuberosus http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki/index.php/Hermodactylus Merwilla plumbea http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki/index.php/Merwilla#plumbea Moraea pendula http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki/index.php/HomeriaTwo#pendula Moraea villosa http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki/index.php/MoraeaSpeciesTen#villosa Nerine angulata http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki/index.php/Nerine#angulata Oxalis obtusa http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki/index.php/SouthAfricanOxalisSeven#obtusa Triteleia bridgesii http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki/index.php/TriteleiaSpeciesOne#bridgesii -------------- http://www.flickr.com/photos/xerantheum/ From pameladaz@msn.com Tue Jan 13 19:18:56 2009 Message-Id: From: "Pamela Slate" Subject: Latest wiki additions Date: Tue, 13 Jan 2009 17:18:47 -0700 WOW!! Nhu - incredible. Thank you so much! Pamela Slate -----Original Message----- From: pbs-bounces@lists.ibiblio.org [mailto:pbs-bounces@lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf Of Nhu Nguyen Sent: Tuesday, January 13, 2009 4:53 PM To: Pacific Bulb Society Subject: [pbs] Latest wiki additions Hello all, I wish everyone a happy New Year full of geophytic success! I have included here the links to the newest wiki additions. Most of my own photos are of tropical geophytes. Paul Licht provided a whole lot of photos from the UC Botanical Garden which I have also posted on the UC Botanical Garden page. Cheers! Nhu -- NEW GENERA/SPECIES to the wiki -- Alpinia boia Alpinia carolinensis Alpinia purpurata 'Pink' Alpinia zerumbet http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki/index.php/Alpinia Costus amazonicus Costus barbatus Costus lasius Costus osae Costus pulverulentus Costus stenophyllus Costus varziarum http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki/index.php/Costus Dioscorea elephantipes Dioscorea mexicana http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki/index.php/Dioscorea Eriospermum paradoxum Eriospermum sp. Eriospermum zeyheri http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki/index.php/Eriospermum Etlingera corneri http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki/index.php/Etlingera Heliconia caribaea Heliconia hirsuta 'Costa Flores' Heliconia indica Heliconia lennartiana Heliconia mutisiana Heliconia pendula Heliconia rostrata http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki/index.php/Heliconia Tapeinochilus ananassae http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki/index.php/Tapeinochilos Zephyranthes traubii http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki/index.php/Zephyranthes#traubii Sparaxis pillansii http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki/index.php/Sparaxis#pillansii -- NEW PHOTOS to the wiki -- Amaryllis worm - a great photo by Cameron McMaster showing a stripped caterpillar feeding on an Eriospermum leaf. http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki/index.php/Eriospermum#zeyheri Hippeastrum teyucarense x angustifolium - photo from Dell Sherk http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki/index.php/HippeastrumHybrids#teyucaren se Trientalis latifolia http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki/index.php/Trientalis ---The following are photos from the UC Botanical Garden--- Amorphophallus konjac http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki/index.php/Amorphophallus Aristea africana http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki/index.php/Aristea#africana Babiaba ringens http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki/index.php/BabianaFour#ringens Begonia boliviensis http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki/index.php/Begonia Brunsvigia grandiflora http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki/index.php/Brunsvigia#grandiflora Brunsvigia marginata http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki/index.php/Brunsvigia#marginata Crocus laevigatus http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki/index.php/FallBloomingCrocusTwo#laevig atus Crocus niveus http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki/index.php/FallBloomingCrocusTwo#niveus Cypripedium californicum http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki/index.php/Cypripedium#californicum Doryanthes excelsa http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki/index.php/Doryanthes Doryanthes palmeri http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki/index.php/Doryanthes Erythronium multiscapoideum http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki/index.php/ErythroniumThree#multiscapoi deum Eucharis x grandiflora http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki/index.php/Eucharis Gladiolus priorii http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki/index.php/SouthernAfricanGladiolusSeve n#priorii Iris tuberosus http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki/index.php/Hermodactylus Merwilla plumbea http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki/index.php/Merwilla#plumbea Moraea pendula http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki/index.php/HomeriaTwo#pendula Moraea villosa http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki/index.php/MoraeaSpeciesTen#villosa Nerine angulata http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki/index.php/Nerine#angulata Oxalis obtusa http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki/index.php/SouthAfricanOxalisSeven#obtu sa Triteleia bridgesii http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki/index.php/TriteleiaSpeciesOne#bridgesi i -------------- http://www.flickr.com/photos/xerantheum/ _______________________________________________ pbs mailing list pbs@lists.ibiblio.org http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php http://pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com Version: 8.0.176 / Virus Database: 270.10.6/1888 - Release Date: 1/13/2009 8:04 PM From jimmckenney@jimmckenney.com Tue Jan 13 19:37:46 2009 Message-Id: <000c01c975e0$d39c9bf0$2f01a8c0@Library> From: "Jim McKenney" Subject: Latest wiki additions Date: Tue, 13 Jan 2009 19:41:22 -0500 Well, Nhu, you've brightened my day and broadened my horizons. When I looked over your list, I noticed that Trientalis had been placed in the Myrsinaceae. For most of my life it's been in the Primulaceae. Further Googling brought me up to date with even more surprising results: not only Trientalis, but Cyclamen, Lysimachia, Anagallis (to cite just the ones likely to be known to gardeners) are now considered by some to be myrsinaceous. Live and learn... Jim McKenney jimmckenney@jimmckenney.com Montgomery County, Maryland, USA, 39.03871º North, 77.09829º West, USDA zone 7, where the temperature is predicted to not get above freezing all day later this week. My Virtual Maryland Garden http://www.jimmckenney.com BLOG! http://mcwort.blogspot.com/ Webmaster Potomac Valley Chapter, NARGS Editor PVC Bulletin http://www.pvcnargs.org Webmaster Potomac Lily Society http://www.potomaclilysociety.org From honeybunny442@yahoo.com Tue Jan 13 21:10:15 2009 Message-Id: <665395.8071.qm@web56106.mail.re3.yahoo.com> From: Susan B Subject: Latest wiki additions Date: Tue, 13 Jan 2009 18:10:14 -0800 (PST) Thank you Nhu, great work (and a lot of it!) Just a note on your Dioscorea mexciana listing:  They are not necessarily dormant in winter.  I've had 2 of these for several years, one always grew in the winter, the other in the summer. Unfortunately I can't compare them any more, I killed one off last year.  The other is happily growing up a piece of string in the greenhouse- about 12 ft right now. susan From telosrarebulbs@suddenlink.net Wed Jan 14 15:48:29 2009 Message-Id: <032B4C99F1FE4DCE9A6A14572FEAAE93@DJ9SK221> From: "Telos Rare Bulbs" Subject: Fw: Greentours San Diego Flora Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2009 12:45:36 -0800 Dear All: I am forwarding the message below from Ian Green. If anyone can help him, please contact him directly. Diana Chap0man ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ian Green" To: "Telos Rare Bulbs" Sent: Wednesday, January 14, 2009 3:36 AM Subject: Greentours San Diego Flora > Dear Diana, I know its outside your area, but do you know anyone who knows > the flora of San Diego area, especially Cuyamaca State Park? I'll be there > Jan 25th for a day which is going to be early of course but if there's > anyone who can give me pointers to any early bulbs etc I 'd appreciate it! > Best wishes, Ian Green From pameladaz@msn.com Wed Jan 14 16:56:22 2009 Message-Id: From: "Pamela Slate" Subject: Fw: Greentours San Diego Flora Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2009 14:56:18 -0700 Dear Ian, If the park is in San Diego County, I suggest you inquire at the Botany Department of the San Diego Museum of Natural History where they have done extensive work on the country's flora. If they don't have a plant list of the park, maybe the CA State Parks Dept. could help you or they museum botany staff could direct you to a source. Hope this helps, Pamela Slate -----Original Message----- From: pbs-bounces@lists.ibiblio.org [mailto:pbs-bounces@lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf Of Telos Rare Bulbs Sent: Wednesday, January 14, 2009 1:46 PM To: Pacific Bulb Society Subject: [pbs] Fw: Greentours San Diego Flora Dear All: I am forwarding the message below from Ian Green. If anyone can help him, please contact him directly. Diana Chap0man ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ian Green" To: "Telos Rare Bulbs" Sent: Wednesday, January 14, 2009 3:36 AM Subject: Greentours San Diego Flora > Dear Diana, I know its outside your area, but do you know anyone who knows > the flora of San Diego area, especially Cuyamaca State Park? I'll be there > Jan 25th for a day which is going to be early of course but if there's > anyone who can give me pointers to any early bulbs etc I 'd appreciate it! > Best wishes, Ian Green _______________________________________________ pbs mailing list pbs@lists.ibiblio.org http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php http://pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com Version: 8.0.176 / Virus Database: 270.10.7/1893 - Release Date: 1/14/2009 6:59 AM From kjblack@pacbell.net Wed Jan 14 20:29:57 2009 Message-Id: <5771.30123.qm@web81106.mail.mud.yahoo.com> From: Ken Subject: Fw: Greentours San Diego Flora Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2009 17:29:55 -0800 (PST) Hello Ian,   Cuyamaca State Park ranges from in elevation from about 4000' to over 6500', and while San Diego County has had some relatively warm weather lately, and all the snow from last month has melted, it is still winter at the higher elevations. (zones 6-7.)  I could be wrong, but I am inclined to believe there would be nothing in bloom yet, and probably not for a month or two at the earliest.  You might have better luck at the low elevations of the Anza Borrego Desert State Park ... another 50 or so miles East, but late January is early even for Desert wildflowers.  If we get any snow in the mountains around that time, it is possible that route 79 into Cuyamaca could be temporarily impassable, or require chains.  Ken Coastal San Diego, USDA Zone 10-11. From: Pamela Slate pameladaz@msn.com Dear Ian, If the park is in San Diego County, I suggest you inquire at the Botany Department of the San Diego Museum of Natural History where they have done extensive work on the country's flora. If they don't have a plant list of the park, maybe the CA State Parks Dept. could help you or they museum botany staff could direct you to a source. To: Pacific Bulb Society Subject: [pbs] Fw: Greentours San Diego Flora From: "Ian Green" To: "Telos Rare Bulbs" Sent: Wednesday, January 14, 2009 3:36 AM Subject: Greentours San Diego Flora > Dear Diana, I know its outside your area, but do you know anyone who knows > the flora of San Diego area, especially Cuyamaca State Park? I'll be there > Jan 25th for a day which is going to be early of course but if there's > anyone who can give me pointers to any early bulbs etc I 'd appreciate it! > Best wishes, Ian Green _______________________________________________ From meenglis@meenglis.cts.com Thu Jan 15 00:05:52 2009 Message-Id: <20090115050550.07A4B3F66@theseus.concentric.com> From: Marguerite English Subject: Fw: Greentours San Diego Flora Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2009 21:05:50 -0800 (PST) Actually, Cuyamaca state park drops all the way down to Alpine, Ca., which is about 3000 ft alt. I live at 3700 ft, right under Mt. Cuyamaca on the southwest slope. We had snow on the peak through Christmas week; but that has now melted. We often get a few days of snow at this altitude during the 1st 3 months of the year, with a lot of rain and wind. It is definitely winter here at least through Feb. First few early bloom begins in late Feb. Apr-May have the best display. We have even had occasional snow on Easter. I do know the native herbaceous plants on this side of Cuyamaca. Most of my lists belong to pressed plants I gathered near my home when the SD Natural History Museum started its program to fill its herbarium with recent samples gathered by local residents. I could share that with folks who don't gather from the wild if anyone is interested. Borrego state park has blooms much earlier. The fields around Borrego provide a beautiful display. I don't have the site, but Anza-Borrego state park has a web page that you can probably google. It always tells when they expect or are having the bloom season. > From B.J.M.Zonneveld@biology.leidenuniv.nl Thu Jan 15 07:44:44 2009 Message-Id: <8E19E8A2233ED74D8483ACF3FBB3603B025773B9@iblmail.ibl.leidenuniv.nl> From: "B.J.M. Zonneveld" Subject: Bowiea volubilis Nana Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2009 13:44:41 +0100 Can anyone help me with seeds/seedlings/bulb of the nana form of Bowiea volubilis. I can exchange them for seedlings of B gariepensis Ben b.j.m.zonneveld@biology.leidenuniv.nl Institute of Molecular Plant Sciences Clusius laboratory PBox 9505 2300RA Leiden The Netherlands From carlobal@netzero.net Thu Jan 15 08:22:45 2009 Message-Id: <20090115.082105.13067.2@webmail12.vgs.untd.com> From: "carlobal@netzero.net" Subject: Bowiea volubilis Nana Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2009 13:21:05 GMT Ben, I may be able to help with a little seed, but let me know if you find any closer to home... Carlo A. Balistrieri The Gardens at Turtle Point Tuxedo Park, NY 10987 Zone 6 (845.351.2849) Visit: www.botanicalgardening.com and its BGBlog From crinum@libero.it Thu Jan 15 08:40:25 2009 Message-Id: From: "Alberto Grossi" Subject: Bowiea volubilis Nana Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2009 14:40:24 +0100 What is bowiea volubilis nana? sorry for my ignorance! Alberto ---------- Initial Header ----------- From : pbs-bounces@lists.ibiblio.org To : pbs@lists.ibiblio.org Cc : Date : Thu, 15 Jan 2009 13:21:05 GMT Subject : Re: [pbs] Bowiea volubilis Nana > Ben, > I may be able to help with a little seed, but let me know if you find any closer to home... > > > Carlo A. Balistrieri > The Gardens at Turtle Point > Tuxedo Park, NY 10987 > Zone 6 (845.351.2849) > Visit: www.botanicalgardening.com and its BGBlog > > _______________________________________________ > pbs mailing list > pbs@lists.ibiblio.org > http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php > http://pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki > Alberto Grossi Italy From jshields104@comcast.net Thu Jan 15 10:40:52 2009 Message-Id: <5.1.0.14.2.20090115104109.01d2ca60@mail.comcast.net> From: "J.E. Shields" Subject: Weather Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2009 10:41:33 -0500 Good morning, all! This morning, just before the sun really came up, my electronic thermometer outdoors between my house and the greenhouses, registered a low of -9.9°F (-23.3°C). The "official" temperature here in Westfield (given by the Weather.com bug for zip code 46074) was -6°F (-21°C) at that time. The sun is shining brightly now, on our fresh coating of snow, but the high this afternoon is predicted to be around 0°F (ca -18°C) and tomorrow morning they are predicting a low of about the same as today, perhaps -8°F. The snow cover in only about 3 or 4 inches, and is likely to be blown around a bit, which would leave many ares completely exposed. This weather is going to reach all the way to the East Coast and well down into the Gulf Coast states. Weather this cold does not hit the eastern half of the USA very often. It will be interesting, come spring, to see what effect it has on our outdoor bulb plantings. I have scattered plantings of less hardy bulbs, including a few Gladiolus oppositiflorus salmoneus, Galtonia candicans, Crinum bulbispermum, Crinum (bulbispermum x graminicola), Crinum (bulbispermum roseum X lugardiae Natal form), and Crinum variabile. All of these have survived for the last several winters outdoors in the ground. I have some newly planted (in May 2008) plants of Trillium simile, T. erectum album, and T. luteum all from Gatlinburg, T. flexipes from Southern Indiana, and probably a few more things that have slipped my mind for the moment. This will be an opportunity for us to see how tough some of our plants are. Jim Shields in Westfield, in central Indiana (USA) ************************************************* Jim Shields USDA Zone 5 Shields Gardens, Ltd. P.O. Box 92 WWW: http://www.shieldsgardens.com/ Westfield, Indiana 46074, USA Tel. ++1-317-867-3344 or toll-free 1-866-449-3344 in USA From jwaddick@kc.rr.com Thu Jan 15 11:29:59 2009 Message-Id: From: James Waddick Subject: Bowiea basics Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2009 10:32:06 -0600 >What is Bowiea volubilis nana? sorry for my ignorance! Dear Alberto, I agree. I have grown B. volubilis many times, but just obtained another plant along with one named B (v) nana. In checking out info I also came across the names B. kilimandscharica and B. gariepensis (various spellings). Some experts claim distinction, others combine all under the single species B. volubilis. I can understand that B. v. may be highly variable, but can anyone pin point the differences between these names? And to add to the confusion, some experts claim the plant is deadly poisonous from root to leaf tip and others claim it is edible. One of these must be wrong. Can anyone clear this up for all of us? and a good web site ? Thanks Jim W. -- Dr. James W. Waddick 8871 NW Brostrom Rd. Kansas City Missouri 64152-2711 USA Ph. 816-746-1949 Zone 5 Record low -23F Summer 100F + From crinum@libero.it Thu Jan 15 11:45:07 2009 Message-Id: From: "Alberto Grossi" Subject: Bowiea basics Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2009 17:45:05 +0100 Hi All. The bulbs of my kilimandsharica are really smaller than volubilis. Gariepensis is a different plant. Alberto ---------- Initial Header ----------- From : pbs-bounces@lists.ibiblio.org To : "Pacific Bulb Society" pbs@lists.ibiblio.org Cc : Date : Thu, 15 Jan 2009 10:32:06 -0600 Subject : [pbs] Bowiea basics > >What is Bowiea volubilis nana? sorry for my ignorance! > > Dear Alberto, > I agree. > I have grown B. volubilis many times, but just obtained > another plant along with one named B (v) nana. In checking out info I > also came across the names B. kilimandscharica and B. gariepensis > (various spellings). > Some experts claim distinction, others combine all under the > single species B. volubilis. > > I can understand that B. v. may be highly variable, but can > anyone pin point the differences between these names? > > > And to add to the confusion, some experts claim the plant is > deadly poisonous from root to leaf tip and others claim it is edible. > One of these must be wrong. > > Can anyone clear this up for all of us? and a good web site ? > > Thanks Jim W. > -- > Dr. James W. Waddick > 8871 NW Brostrom Rd. > Kansas City Missouri 64152-2711 > USA > Ph. 816-746-1949 > Zone 5 Record low -23F > Summer 100F + > _______________________________________________ > pbs mailing list > pbs@lists.ibiblio.org > http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php > http://pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki > Alberto Grossi Italy From btankers@chicagobotanic.org Thu Jan 15 12:40:06 2009 Message-Id: <52857FDB394B7E45BA1F2E60D7313E2A0EDCB8A2@cbgmail.chicagobotanic.org> From: "Boyce Tankersley" Subject: Weather Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2009 11:38:53 -0600 Good morning from a very cold Chicago. Our day time high this afternoon is predicted to be -4 degrees F. Our predicted low for Saturday morning is -15 degrees F. Neither temperature is a record, but they are the coldest readings we have experienced in the last 10 years. We have more snow cover (11 inches) than Jim Shields but it is a very dry snow and the winds are starting to move it around. Wind chills for this afternoon will be around -20 degrees F and tomorrow morning at -30 degrees F or lower. Twelve miles south of the Chicago Botanic Garden, the heat island effect of the city of Chicago is providing only a 10 degree impact. We are situated west of Lake Michigan so the lake effect (moderated temperatures plus increased snowfall) will not help us out. A great day for nursery catalogs! Boyce Tankersley Director of Living Plant Documentation Chicago Botanic Garden 1000 Lake Cook Road Glencoe, IL 60022 tel: 847-835-6841 fax: 847-835-1635 email: btankers@chicagobotanic.org USDA Zone 5 On Behalf Of J.E. Shields Sent: Thursday, January 15, 2009 9:42 AM To: Pacific Bulb Society Subject: [pbs] Weather Good morning, all! This morning, just before the sun really came up, my electronic thermometer outdoors between my house and the greenhouses, registered a low of -9.9°F (-23.3°C). The "official" temperature here in Westfield (given by the Weather.com bug for zip code 46074) was -6°F (-21°C) at that time. From HHeaven77@aol.com Thu Jan 15 15:01:24 2009 Message-Id: <8CB456313DDA3E6-1084-378@WEBMAIL-MB08.sysops.aol.com> From: hheaven77@aol.com Subject: Weather Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2009 15:00:41 -0500 ...everytime I start to miss Northern Ohio and the Great Lakes I hear something like this... Celeste Gornick Phoenix, AZ Where it is 72 degrees with a mild breeze of 11 m.p.h. Our day time high this afternoon is predicted to be -4 degrees F. Our predicted low for Saturday morning is -15 degrees F. Neither temperature is a record, but they are the coldest readings we have experienced in the last 10 years. From jwaddick@kc.rr.com Fri Jan 16 10:37:19 2009 Message-Id: From: James Waddick Subject: Bowiea basics Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2009 23:31:11 -0600 >Hi All. >The bulbs of my kilimandsharica are really smaller than volubilis. >Gariepensis is a different plant. >Alberto Dear Alberto, Sorry this doesn't really differentiate the various 'species'. Any good morphological characteristics? Key characters? Thanks Jim -- Dr. James W. Waddick 8871 NW Brostrom Rd. Kansas City Missouri 64152-2711 USA Ph. 816-746-1949 Zone 5 Record low -23F Summer 100F + From cvschalkwyk@lantic.net Fri Jan 16 05:03:10 2009 Message-Id: From: "Christiaan van Schalkwyk" Subject: Bowiea basics Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2009 12:03:34 +0200 Hi all According to the SA National Biodiversity institute there are only one species of Bowiea, i.e. B. volubilis. There are two subspecies, namely volubilis and gariepensis. Bowiea kilimandscharica is a synonym of or is sunk into ssp. volubilis See: http://www.ville-ge.ch/musinfo/bd/cjb/africa/recherche.php?langue=an and type in Bowiea, search, and if you follow the links the distribution areas will be shown. B. volubilis are found over a very large and diverse geographical and rainfall area, so many local variations will exist. These will probably integrate into each other, and thus not seperable into subspecies. But if a northern form are compared with a southern one (with approx 1500km difference in distance !), definite differences in size and hardiness will be seen. Many other species will show similar variations. These differences makes it quite important to record the orrigin of plants, not only in order to effectively conserve them, but also to optimize growing conditions and watering, as well as too appreciate the natural diversity that is "out there". Christiaan ----- Original Message ----- From: "Alberto Grossi" To: "pbs" Sent: Thursday, January 15, 2009 6:45 PM Subject: Re: [pbs] Bowiea basics > Hi All. > The bulbs of my kilimandsharica are really smaller than volubilis. > Gariepensis is a different plant. > Alberto > > ---------- Initial Header ----------- > >From : pbs-bounces@lists.ibiblio.org > To : "Pacific Bulb Society" pbs@lists.ibiblio.org > Cc : > Date : Thu, 15 Jan 2009 10:32:06 -0600 > Subject : [pbs] Bowiea basics > > > > > > > >> >What is Bowiea volubilis nana? sorry for my ignorance! >> >> Dear Alberto, >> I agree. >> I have grown B. volubilis many times, but just obtained >> another plant along with one named B (v) nana. In checking out info I >> also came across the names B. kilimandscharica and B. gariepensis >> (various spellings). >> Some experts claim distinction, others combine all under the >> single species B. volubilis. >> >> I can understand that B. v. may be highly variable, but can >> anyone pin point the differences between these names? >> >> >> And to add to the confusion, some experts claim the plant is >> deadly poisonous from root to leaf tip and others claim it is edible. >> One of these must be wrong. >> >> Can anyone clear this up for all of us? and a good web site ? >> >> Thanks Jim W. >> -- >> Dr. James W. Waddick >> 8871 NW Brostrom Rd. >> Kansas City Missouri 64152-2711 >> USA >> Ph. 816-746-1949 >> Zone 5 Record low -23F >> Summer 100F + >> _______________________________________________ >> pbs mailing list >> pbs@lists.ibiblio.org >> http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php >> http://pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki >> > > Alberto Grossi > Italy > > > _______________________________________________ > pbs mailing list > pbs@lists.ibiblio.org > http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php > http://pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki From carlobal@netzero.net Fri Jan 16 08:46:25 2009 Message-Id: <20090116.084445.25774.0@webmail12.vgs.untd.com> From: "carlobal@netzero.net" Subject: Bowiea basics Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2009 13:44:45 GMT Thanks Christiaan...very interesting information. By that account, I've got three specimens that appear relatively distinct. Despite growing under identical conditions, they've maintained their appearance--so I'd say it's NOT an environmental factor that modified their morphology. I'm sowing seed of what is purported to be B. v. nana within the next few days and will have yet another set of plants to look at. It will be most interesting to observe seedling variation. It will be my first experience with the genus from seed. Carlo A. Balistrieri The Gardens at Turtle Point Tuxedo Park, NY 10987 Zone 6 (845.351.2849) Visit: www.botanicalgardening.com and its BGBlog From jwaddick@kc.rr.com Fri Jan 16 10:43:02 2009 Message-Id: From: James Waddick Subject: Bowiea basics Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2009 09:44:59 -0600 Dear Christiaan, Thanks for letting us know about this site. I see that they accept this taxon: Bowiea volubilis subsp. gariepensis How does this subspecies differ from the typical ssp volubilis. I see that their distributions do not quite touch, but what physical characteristics. And it doesn't mention B.v nana at all. Any thoughts? More questions. Jim W. -- Dr. James W. Waddick 8871 NW Brostrom Rd. Kansas City Missouri 64152-2711 USA Ph. 816-746-1949 Zone 5 Record low -23F Summer 100F + From crinum@libero.it Fri Jan 16 11:04:01 2009 Message-Id: From: "Alberto Grossi" Subject: Bowiea basics Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2009 17:04:00 +0100 My volubilis grow in winter-spring and is stronger than kilimandsharica, growing in summer-autumn-winter. My gariepensis grow in autumn-winter with glaucous stems, versus green of the former, white star flowers, versus green flowers. There is a good comparative description on Flowering Plants of Africa, dealing with volubilis and gariepensis. But I have not found anything about kilimandsharica but the original description. I'd like to know more. What is volubilis nana? Alberto ----------- Initial Header ----------- From : pbs-bounces@lists.ibiblio.org To : "Pacific Bulb Society" pbs@lists.ibiblio.org Cc : Date : Thu, 15 Jan 2009 23:31:11 -0600 Subject : Re: [pbs] Bowiea basics > >Hi All. > >The bulbs of my kilimandsharica are really smaller than volubilis. > >Gariepensis is a different plant. > >Alberto > > Dear Alberto, > Sorry this doesn't really differentiate the various > 'species'. Any good morphological characteristics? Key characters? > > Thanks Jim > -- > Dr. James W. Waddick > 8871 NW Brostrom Rd. > Kansas City Missouri 64152-2711 > USA > Ph. 816-746-1949 > Zone 5 Record low -23F > Summer 100F + > > _______________________________________________ > pbs mailing list > pbs@lists.ibiblio.org > http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php > http://pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki > Alberto Grossi Italy From cvschalkwyk@lantic.net Fri Jan 16 11:26:31 2009 Message-Id: <3C656A12C8414CBDA4E5F7FC8485F8F0@h4l> From: "Christiaan van Schalkwyk" Subject: Bowiea basics Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2009 18:27:57 +0200 Hi I do not know Bowiea at all, except for the pictures, and specimens seen at the botanical gardens. From the distribution range one can presume that ssp. gariepensis could be much hardier and probably smaller, rainfall to the east of the distibution is summer rainfall, to the west winter (less than 150 mm per year throughout the range, probably closer to 90mm). This distribution hugs the Orange river (also called the Gariep River) so very high temperatures (in summer in the high 40 degrees C, even into the 50's), winters moderate days, nights cold, with little frost. Probably fairly high dew levels.Altitude (I guess) less than 800 m above sea level. The type ssp. occurs in summer rainfall area, more than 900 - 1500mm per year, The southern distribution close to the ocean, very cold winters, the northern range closer to the tropics, so warmer temperatures throughout the year. Also much higher altitudes. The forms in the mid-range might get some snow in winter I know this does not say much about how they look, but might help in the way one treats them. Normally the epithet "nana" is used for a smaller form Christiaan From carlobal@netzero.net Fri Jan 16 11:38:21 2009 Message-Id: <20090116.113733.18030.0@webmail13.vgs.untd.com> From: "carlobal@netzero.net" Subject: Bowiea basics Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2009 16:37:33 GMT Jim, The normal growth pattern of B. volubilis is vining with the growth getting thinner as it divaricates. B. v. gariepensis has the same growth pattern but maintains nearly the same thickness from the main vine to the end of the new growth. It appears inflated and is visiaully distinct from volubilis. If I get a chance, I'll photograph the two side by side. Carlo A. Balistrieri The Gardens at Turtle Point Tuxedo Park, NY 10987 Zone 6 (845.351.2849) Visit: www.botanicalgardening.com and its BGBlog From oothal@hotmail.com Fri Jan 16 13:56:49 2009 Message-Id: From: Justin Smith Subject: need help with oxalis maritima seed Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2009 12:56:48 -0600 Hi, I just got some Oxalis maritima seed and was wondering if anyone had any ideas on how best to plant and germinate the seeds. There does not seem to be a lot about it on the web. Thanks! Justin Woodville, TX 8b/9a _________________________________________________________________ Windows Live™: Keep your life in sync. http://windowslive.com/explore?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_t1_allup_explore_012009 From ksayce@willapabay.org Fri Jan 16 20:31:36 2009 Message-Id: From: Kathleen Sayce Subject: Pancratium maritimum Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2009 17:31:03 -0800 Having just gotten some Pancratium maritimum seed from the PBS BX, I'd like to hear from members who are familiar with this species about the seed germinating and bulb growing conditions that have worked for them. Thanks, Kathleen From pulse@mx.plaxo.com Fri Jan 16 22:36:06 2009 Message-Id: <03470446bbcdd6524ef331ad959ceeea@xpertmailer.com> From: "Norm Kalbfleisch" Subject: Norm Kalbfleisch added you as a connection on Plaxo Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2009 19:36:04 -0800 Hi Pacific, Norm Kalbfleisch wants to add you as a connection on Plaxo. To accept this connection request, go to: http://www.plaxo.com/invite?i=57303945&k=2093157341&l=en&src=email&et=1&est=nolevels&etv=nnic1b2&el=en Thanks! The Plaxo team More than 20 million people use Plaxo to keep in touch with the people they care about. Don't want to receive emails from Plaxo any more? Go to: http://www.plaxo.com/stop?src=email&et=1&est=nolevels&etv=nnic1b2&el=en&email=pbs%40lists.ibiblio.org From eagle85@flash.net Fri Jan 16 23:24:02 2009 Message-Id: <5C4034D7-02DB-4BED-8D13-B88383F371B7@flash.net> From: Douglas Westfall Subject: wiki addition Paramongaia weberbaueri Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2009 20:23:56 -0800 PBS members, I have just entered a pic. of my Paramongaia weberbaueri with a second flower and the seed pod developing just behind the second flower. Regards, Doug Westfall From rvanderhoff@sbcglobal.net Sat Jan 17 00:10:02 2009 Message-Id: <855579.45784.qm@web81001.mail.mud.yahoo.com> From: Ron Vanderhoff Subject: need help with oxalis maritima seed Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2009 21:09:51 -0800 (PST) Justin,   Oxalis maritima is synonymous with Oxalis tortuosa. It is a fairly common species of Oxalis from the Mediterranean region of central coastal Chile, between about 29°-36°S. Oxalis maritima has an unusual upright and angular growth habit, very unique for an Oxalis. I suspect it may be closely allied to Oxalis carnosa, which it often associates with. Like O. carnosa, it expels its ripe seeds from an exploding seed capsule.   For several reasons, many Oxalis are very difficult or nearly impossible to grow from seed, especially the South African species. However, this species should be an exception. O. maritima self pollinates and the seed should be fairly long-lived and easy to germinate. I have seen it seed randomly among my collection, although not nearly as aggressively as O. carnosa, which can almost be a pest. Scatter the fresh, ripe seeds on the surface of a sandy, lean, fast draining soil mix and cover with just a few more grains of sand, then keep moderately moist. Germination should be quick, likely within 10 to 14 days. Ron Vanderhoff California ________________________________ From: Justin Smith To: pbs@lists.ibiblio.org Sent: Friday, January 16, 2009 10:56:48 AM Subject: [pbs] need help with oxalis maritima seed Hi, I just got some Oxalis maritima seed and was wondering if anyone had any ideas on how best to plant and germinate the seeds. There does not seem to be a lot about it on the web. Thanks! Justin Woodville, TX 8b/9a _________________________________________________________________ Windows Live™: Keep your life in sync. http://windowslive.com/explore?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_t1_allup_explore_012009 _______________________________________________ pbs mailing list pbs@lists.ibiblio.org http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php http://pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki From xerantheum@gmail.com Sat Jan 17 02:14:27 2009 Message-Id: From: "Nhu Nguyen" Subject: Namaquanula bruynsii Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2009 23:14:25 -0800 On Tue, Jan 13, 2009 at 2:36 PM, Tomas Sandberg wrote: > Hi, > > Anybody of you at PBS who knows about the species Namaquanula bruynsii? > > Hi Tomas, There is a very nice article about this species by Charles Craib in the latest issue of Herbertia (Vol. 60). It was described in 2005. He described it's habitat in the Tiras Mountains in southwest Namibia growing with Daubenya comata and some species of Lachenalia and Ornithogalum. It is most closely related to Hessea (the flowers look like robust Hessea flowers). He also wrote detailed cultivation notes. Nhu -- http://www.flickr.com/photos/xerantheum/ From zigur@hotmail.com Sat Jan 17 02:29:20 2009 Message-Id: From: Tim Harvey Subject: Namaquanula bruynsii Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2009 23:29:19 -0800 I have grown it for a couple of years ... it has flowered and is nothing to write home about, I have to say. T From fbiasella@watertownsavings.com Sat Jan 17 08:35:23 2009 Message-Id: From: "Fred Biasella" Subject: Pancratium maritimum Date: Sat, 17 Jan 2009 08:34:45 -0500 Hi Kathleen, I just got some as well and I planted them in mix of ProMix potting soil, small fir bark, granite chips and sand. I have them growing under lights with my African Violets and their cousins in my heated front (southern exposed) porch. The four seeds I received were potted up, watered and a clear plastic dome was placed over the seeds until they sprouted. They have all sprouted and the leaves are about 2" to 3" long and grass like and a small bulb is beginning to form at the soil level. So far so good, but I'll let you know what happens from this point on. Warm Regards, Fred Biasella Cambridge (Boston) MA ....and boy is it COLD!!!!!!!!!!!!! -----Original Message----- From: pbs-bounces@lists.ibiblio.org [mailto:pbs-bounces@lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf Of Kathleen Sayce Sent: Friday, January 16, 2009 8:31 PM To: pbs@lists.ibiblio.org Subject: [pbs] Pancratium maritimum Having just gotten some Pancratium maritimum seed from the PBS BX, I'd like to hear from members who are familiar with this species about the seed germinating and bulb growing conditions that have worked for them. Thanks, Kathleen _______________________________________________ pbs mailing list pbs@lists.ibiblio.org http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php http://pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki From idavide@sbcglobal.net Sat Jan 17 11:20:49 2009 Message-Id: <136431.34694.qm@web81002.mail.mud.yahoo.com> From: David Ehrlich Subject: Norm Kalbfleisch added you as a connection on Plaxo Date: Sat, 17 Jan 2009 08:20:48 -0800 (PST) Kalbfleisch?  As in Kalbfleisch alla parmigiana? ________________________________ Norm Kalbfleisch wants to add you as a connection on Plaxo. From markus.breier@gmx.de Sat Jan 17 13:06:37 2009 Message-Id: <951C1C23B3A0459F817F4F7977CA3178@breier> From: "Markus Breier" Subject: WG: Pancratium maritimum Date: Sat, 17 Jan 2009 19:06:37 +0100 Hi Kathleen, Pancratium maritimum grows in Southern Europe in nearly pure sand on the dunes next to the sea. I have seen the bulbs standing about 20-40cm (8-16 inch) deep in the ground - no necessity in culture! Mine are growing in 15cm high pots. The substrate should contain just a very small amount of organic material. And very well drainage! Otherwise it will start to rot. - You could put the bulbs on the substrate and fill the rest of the pot with gravel. So the bulbs themselves stand rather dry. They dislike being replanted. Take a bigger pot and leave them for some years. This specie loves very much sun. It cannot get too much. During summer they usually go dormant and leaves appears after flowering in late summer/ early autumn. In winter they naturally grow at temperatures of 5-15°C (40-60°F). Kind regards Markus Breier Dachau, Bavaria, Southern Germany USDA 6a -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht----- Von: pbs-bounces@lists.ibiblio.org [mailto:pbs-bounces@lists.ibiblio.org] Im Auftrag von Fred Biasella Gesendet: Samstag, 17. Januar 2009 14:35 An: 'Pacific Bulb Society' Betreff: Re: [pbs] Pancratium maritimum Hi Kathleen, I just got some as well and I planted them in mix of ProMix potting soil, small fir bark, granite chips and sand. I have them growing under lights with my African Violets and their cousins in my heated front (southern exposed) porch. The four seeds I received were potted up, watered and a clear plastic dome was placed over the seeds until they sprouted. They have all sprouted and the leaves are about 2" to 3" long and grass like and a small bulb is beginning to form at the soil level. So far so good, but I'll let you know what happens from this point on. Warm Regards, Fred Biasella Cambridge (Boston) MA ....and boy is it COLD!!!!!!!!!!!!! -----Original Message----- From: pbs-bounces@lists.ibiblio.org [mailto:pbs-bounces@lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf Of Kathleen Sayce Sent: Friday, January 16, 2009 8:31 PM To: pbs@lists.ibiblio.org Subject: [pbs] Pancratium maritimum Having just gotten some Pancratium maritimum seed from the PBS BX, I'd like to hear from members who are familiar with this species about the seed germinating and bulb growing conditions that have worked for them. Thanks, Kathleen _______________________________________________ pbs mailing list pbs@lists.ibiblio.org http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php http://pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki _______________________________________________ pbs mailing list pbs@lists.ibiblio.org http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php http://pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki From tversted@email.dk Sat Jan 17 13:57:38 2009 Message-Id: <5F043E47D9954CECADAC6103CAD99952@EjerPC> From: "Martin Ravn Tversted" Subject: Bowiea basics Date: Sat, 17 Jan 2009 19:57:55 +0100 I have one specimen that produce the main body to around 5 cm or maybe a little more. Ive had it for 22 years so its not that it havnt grown up yet. on pictures I see plants much larger. Mine are summer growing and I have have planted spare plants out into the cold cacti greenhouse where they survive air temps to -14C and climb the Cylindropuntias each summer. Would these be the nana form? Now I have sown seeds collected in Bloemfontein. Maybe these will be larger. Martin Tversted From sgage4@eq.edu.au Sat Jan 17 21:53:12 2009 Message-Id: From: Shelley GAGE Subject: Bowiea basics Date: Sun, 18 Jan 2009 12:53:09 +1000 Dear All, Last year I offered to send seeds of the Bunya Pine to someone in South America and I have lost their contact details so am hoping he will read this and contact me throughPBS as Bunya Pine seeds are ripe now. Shelley Gage  Queensland Australia ----- Original Message ----- From: Martin Ravn Tversted Date: Sunday, January 18, 2009 4:57 am Subject: [pbs] Bowiea basics To: pbs@lists.ibiblio.org > I have one specimen that produce the main body to around 5 cm or > maybe a > little more. Ive had it for 22 years so its not that it havnt > grown up yet. > on pictures I see plants much larger. Mine are summer growing > and I have > have planted spare plants out into the cold cacti greenhouse > where they > survive air temps to -14C and climb the Cylindropuntias each > summer. Would > these be the nana form? > Now I have sown seeds collected in Bloemfontein. Maybe these > will be larger. > > Martin Tversted > > _______________________________________________ > pbs mailing list > pbs@lists.ibiblio.org > http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php > http://pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki From eagle85@flash.net Sat Jan 17 22:37:21 2009 Message-Id: From: Douglas Westfall Subject: Norm Kalbfleisch added you as a connection on Plaxo Date: Sat, 17 Jan 2009 19:37:15 -0800 What on earth does "Norm Kalbfleisch wants to add you as a connection on Plaxo" mean? ? ? From arnold@nj.rr.com Sat Jan 17 23:07:23 2009 Message-Id: <4972AA68.9040108@nj.rr.com> From: Arnold Trachtenberg Subject: Norm Kalbfleisch added you as a connection on Plaxo Date: Sat, 17 Jan 2009 23:04:56 -0500 Doug: This is probably some sort of virus that has generated messages to everyone who is in Norms address book. Arnold From voltaire@islandnet.com Sat Jan 17 23:22:47 2009 Message-Id: <7FF0B25A-205C-4F59-9794-F978792C8E1A@islandnet.com> From: Diane Whitehead Subject: Norm Kalbfleisch added you as a connection on Plaxo Date: Sat, 17 Jan 2009 20:22:04 -0800 It seems to be a social networking site, something like Facebook, and it has sent out invitations to everyone in his address book. It is strange that our PBS listserv accepted it, as usually members are unsuccessful when they try to post using a different address from their usual one. Diane On 17-Jan-09, at 8:04 PM, Arnold Trachtenberg wrote: > Doug: > > This is probably some sort of virus that has generated messages to > everyone who is in Norms address book. > > Arnold > _______________________________________________ From toadlily@olywa.net Sun Jan 18 00:10:24 2009 Message-Id: <4972B9CD.2030307@olywa.net> From: Laura & Dave Subject: Norm Kalbfleisch added you as a connection on Plaxo Date: Sat, 17 Jan 2009 21:10:37 -0800 This blanket email demonstrates the "cunning" of the hacker. There are a couple of ways to do this, at least. One is to create a false header made to look like it came from Norm, and fooling the system into thinking that was the true source. Another, more sinister way, is to have Norm's computer actually generate the messages, which means that his computer, and now some of ours probably, is infected with malicious programs of some form or another. I'd recommend everyone make sure that your virus software has the latest signature files loaded, then check every thing (system files, memory, and everything on any drive). It might take a while, but it's worth it. In addition to virus software (we use F-Prot)) there is a good free program for clearing junk files called Ad-Aware. By the way, I received this same e-mail from several different sources. Lucky me!! Do hackers make good mulch? I'd rather be gardening Dave Brastow From voltaire@islandnet.com Sun Jan 18 01:03:21 2009 Message-Id: From: Diane Whitehead Subject: Norm Kalbfleisch added you as a connection on Plaxo Date: Sat, 17 Jan 2009 22:02:32 -0800 I Googled for Plaxo and invitation. It doesn't look sinister. There is a LOT of discussion about it, beginning about 2004. Below are two snippets. Diane ======================================================== Here is an excerpt from Ben Golub, president and CEO of Plaxo, which provides an online service for managing contact information. Though there are certainly some people who are misusing these new tools to send "acquaintance spam" to everyone in their address book, this situation should correct itself over time. Every new technology has an etiquette learning curve. ......... and from someone else: There’s a labor-related incentive to joining these networks. If I join Plaxo, then I just have to maintain my contact information in one place and all the other Plaxo members can link to it. If I change my phone number, that information propagates to you automatically. On 17-Jan-09, at 9:10 PM, Laura & Dave wrote: > This blanket email demonstrates the "cunning" of the hacker. There > are > a couple of ways to do this, at least. One is to create a false > header > made to look like it came from Norm, and fooling the system into > thinking that was the true source. Another, more sinister way, is to > have Norm's computer actually generate the messages, which means that > his computer, and now some of ours probably, is infected with > malicious > programs of some form or another. I'd recommend everyone make sure > that > your virus software has the latest signature files loaded, then check > every thing (system files, memory, and everything on any drive). It > might take a while, but it's worth it. In addition to virus software > (we use F-Prot)) there is a good free program for clearing junk files > called Ad-Aware. By the way, I received this same e-mail from several > different sources. Lucky me!! Do hackers make good mulch? > > I'd rather be gardening > Dave Brastow > > _______________________________________________ > pbs mailing list > pbs@lists.ibiblio.org > http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php > http://pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki > From gentian21@comcast.net Sun Jan 18 11:24:03 2009 Message-Id: <002001c97989$29e39170$6601a8c0@blackdell> From: "gentian21" Subject: Norm Kalbfleisch added you as a connection on Plaxo Date: Sun, 18 Jan 2009 10:23:55 -0600 Plaxo is a program that comes with other programs that keeps your email address up to date. When you change your email address then "everybody" in your address gets a change of address or something. This is one of those things like auto-reply that doesn't work with a mailing list, so the user has to exclude that address and use the normal method of address change. So it could be innocent if there is a Norm Kalbfleisch and he has Plaxo. Or it could be that is just the fake subject line. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Diane Whitehead" To: "Pacific Bulb Society" Sent: Sunday, January 18, 2009 12:02 AM Subject: Re: [pbs] Norm Kalbfleisch added you as a connection on Plaxo I Googled for Plaxo and invitation. It doesn't look sinister. There is a LOT of discussion about it, beginning about 2004. Below are two snippets. Diane ======================================================== Here is an excerpt from Ben Golub, president and CEO of Plaxo, which provides an online service for managing contact information. Though there are certainly some people who are misusing these new tools to send "acquaintance spam" to everyone in their address book, this situation should correct itself over time. Every new technology has an etiquette learning curve. ......... and from someone else: There’s a labor-related incentive to joining these networks. If I join Plaxo, then I just have to maintain my contact information in one place and all the other Plaxo members can link to it. If I change my phone number, that information propagates to you automatically. On 17-Jan-09, at 9:10 PM, Laura & Dave wrote: > This blanket email demonstrates the "cunning" of the hacker. There > are > a couple of ways to do this, at least. One is to create a false > header > made to look like it came from Norm, and fooling the system into > thinking that was the true source. Another, more sinister way, is to > have Norm's computer actually generate the messages, which means that > his computer, and now some of ours probably, is infected with > malicious > programs of some form or another. I'd recommend everyone make sure > that > your virus software has the latest signature files loaded, then check > every thing (system files, memory, and everything on any drive). It > might take a while, but it's worth it. In addition to virus software > (we use F-Prot)) there is a good free program for clearing junk files > called Ad-Aware. By the way, I received this same e-mail from several > different sources. Lucky me!! Do hackers make good mulch? > > I'd rather be gardening > Dave Brastow > > _______________________________________________ > pbs mailing list > pbs@lists.ibiblio.org > http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php > http://pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki > _______________________________________________ pbs mailing list pbs@lists.ibiblio.org http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php http://pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki From gentian21@comcast.net Sun Jan 18 11:39:19 2009 Message-Id: <002d01c9798b$4bbf19c0$6601a8c0@blackdell> From: "gentian21" Subject: Norm Kalbfleisch added you as a connection on Plaxo Date: Sun, 18 Jan 2009 10:39:12 -0600 It looks legitimate because it was received by PBS from the correct IP address for Plaxo at mx.plaxo.com (mx.plaxo.com [66.151.128.13]). ----- Original Message ----- From: "Diane Whitehead" To: "Pacific Bulb Society" Sent: Sunday, January 18, 2009 12:02 AM Subject: Re: [pbs] Norm Kalbfleisch added you as a connection on Plaxo I Googled for Plaxo and invitation. It doesn't look sinister. There is a LOT of discussion about it, beginning about 2004. Below are two snippets. Diane ======================================================== Here is an excerpt from Ben Golub, president and CEO of Plaxo, which provides an online service for managing contact information. Though there are certainly some people who are misusing these new tools to send "acquaintance spam" to everyone in their address book, this situation should correct itself over time. Every new technology has an etiquette learning curve. ......... and from someone else: There’s a labor-related incentive to joining these networks. If I join Plaxo, then I just have to maintain my contact information in one place and all the other Plaxo members can link to it. If I change my phone number, that information propagates to you automatically. On 17-Jan-09, at 9:10 PM, Laura & Dave wrote: > This blanket email demonstrates the "cunning" of the hacker. There > are > a couple of ways to do this, at least. One is to create a false > header > made to look like it came from Norm, and fooling the system into > thinking that was the true source. Another, more sinister way, is to > have Norm's computer actually generate the messages, which means that > his computer, and now some of ours probably, is infected with > malicious > programs of some form or another. I'd recommend everyone make sure > that > your virus software has the latest signature files loaded, then check > every thing (system files, memory, and everything on any drive). It > might take a while, but it's worth it. In addition to virus software > (we use F-Prot)) there is a good free program for clearing junk files > called Ad-Aware. By the way, I received this same e-mail from several > different sources. Lucky me!! Do hackers make good mulch? > > I'd rather be gardening > Dave Brastow > > _______________________________________________ > pbs mailing list > pbs@lists.ibiblio.org > http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php > http://pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki > _______________________________________________ pbs mailing list pbs@lists.ibiblio.org http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php http://pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki From eagle85@flash.net Sun Jan 18 14:30:56 2009 Message-Id: <4288E57C-645D-4F39-9591-92576BC8803B@flash.net> From: Douglas Westfall Subject: Norm Kalbfleisch added you as a connection on Plaxo Date: Sun, 18 Jan 2009 11:30:41 -0800 "Norm Kalbfleisch wants to add you as a connection on Plaxo." DO NOT, REPEAT, DO NOT ADD MY NAME OR EMAIL ADDRESS!!! DOUG WESTFALL From ds429@comcast.net Sun Jan 18 14:41:28 2009 Message-Id: <000d01c979a4$c53aeae0$4fb0c0a0$@net> From: "Dell Sherk" Subject: Pacific BX 195 Date: Sun, 18 Jan 2009 14:41:34 -0500 Dear All, The items listed below have been donated by our members to be shared. If you are interested in obtaining some of them, please email me PRIVATELY at . Include "BX 195" in the subject line. Specify the NUMBERS of the items which you would like; do not specify quantities. It is a good idea to include your snail mail address, too, in case I don't already have it. Availability is based on a first come, first served system. When you receive your seeds/bulbs you will find, included with them, a statement of how much money (usually $2.00/item) (cash, check, or Pay Pal to ; no money orders, please) you should send the PBS treasurer to defray our costs for packing and first-class, priority-mail, or international postage. PLEASE NOTE: NEW POSTAL-RATE SCHEMES NECESSITATE OUR PLACING A SURCHARGE ON EACH ORDER FROM PBS BX OFFERINGS. Some of you are members of the online PBS discussion forum but are not members of the Pacific Bulb Society. THIS BX OFFERING IS AVAILABLE ONLY TO MEMBERS OF THE PBS. Consider joining the PBS so that you can take advantage of future offers such as this. Go to our website: http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org .... If you would like to donate seeds or bulbs/corms to the PBS,(Donors will receive credit on the BX for the cost of postage for their donations.), please send CLEAN, clearly labeled material to: Dell Sherk 6832 Phillips Mill Rd. New Hope, PA, 18938 USA I WILL REPLY TO YOU WITHIN 24 HRS OF MY RECEIPT OF YOUR ORDER. IF YOU DO NOT HEAR FROM ME, TRY AGAIN !! From Pieter van der Walt: SEEDS: 1. Boophone disticha, "courtesy of BuPSSA, the Bulbous Plant Society of Southern African - a lively group of gardeners, botanists and horticulturists who meet once a month at the Walter Sisulu Botanical Garden in Roodepoort, Gauteng, for a talk about bulbs by an expert speaker. BuPSSA has been going for about two years now, and hope to have a webpage up and running in the near future to facilitate communication, post articles and manage the seed exchange that sprouted from its meetings. BuPSSA aims to serve a similar membership than IBSA, but for the Northern regions of South Africa, international membership will also become possible in the future, once their journal has been sorted out."   2. Crinum ligulatum, "originally from Itremo, Madagascar. The seeds are from hand-pollinated plants in my collection. This is a very beautiful species."   3. Nelumbo nucifera var. caspicum aka Russian Red Lotus, "from the Volga River Delta in Russia, I received my original material from Walter Pagels who is known the world over for his contributions to watergardening. These have single, dark pink flowers which are produced prolifically through summer." Thank you, Pieter !! Best wishes, Dell Dell Sherk, Director, PBS BX From ds429@comcast.net Sun Jan 18 14:44:36 2009 Message-Id: <000e01c979a5$3565f990$a031ecb0$@net> From: "Dell Sherk" Subject: New Email Date: Sun, 18 Jan 2009 14:44:42 -0500 Dear All, I have a new email address. The old one dells@voicenet.com still works for the time being, but please start using the new one ds429@comcast.net Best wishes, Dell Dell Sherk, PBS BX From ds429@comcast.net Sun Jan 18 15:00:28 2009 Message-Id: <001401c979a7$6c825570$45870050$@net> From: "Dell Sherk" Subject: Membership renewal Date: Sun, 18 Jan 2009 15:00:33 -0500 Hi All, It is a new year, and some of you still have not renewed your PBS membership by paying your dues for 2009. If you want to keep getting the treasures that the PBS BX has to offer, renew right away. Go to the website: www.pacificbulbsociety.org Best wishes, Dell Dell Sherk, PBS BX From voltaire@islandnet.com Mon Jan 19 02:19:38 2009 Message-Id: <8258D75B-8F5A-414F-943E-CB762586D1D5@islandnet.com> From: Diane Whitehead Subject: evergreen chives? Date: Sun, 18 Jan 2009 23:18:54 -0800 I am planning projects for the summer and decided I really want to grow some evergreen chives. I can pick all my herbs year round except for basil, chives and mint. Of those, chives are the ones most frequently used. I checked the wiki chives page,which shows lots of pretty flowers, but it doesn't mention whether any of them keep their leaves. Does anyone know of evergreen ones? Diane Whitehead Victoria, British Columbia, Canada maritime zone 8, cool Mediterranean climate mild rainy winters, mild dry summers From dejager@bulbargence.com Mon Jan 19 02:40:48 2009 Message-Id: From: Lauw de Jager Subject: evergreen chives? Date: Mon, 19 Jan 2009 08:39:50 +0100 Diana, I assume that mean Allium schoenoprasum? Its vegetative period is here (in our méditerranean climate) from March till November For more information see growing cycle in the link: http://www.bulbargence.com/m_catalogue/article.php?id_categorie=24&id_articl e=44&val= `Transplanting is generally done during the winter months. Kind greetings -- Lauw de Jager Bulb'Argence South of France (zone 9 (olive trees) emailto: dejager@bulbargence.com Site www.bulbargence.com Le 19/01/09 8:18, « Diane Whitehead » a écrit : > I am planning projects for the summer and decided I really want to > grow some evergreen chives. I can pick all my herbs year round except > for basil, chives and mint. Of those, chives are the ones most > frequently used. > I checked the wiki chives page,which shows lots of pretty flowers, > but it doesn't mention whether any of them keep their leaves. From voltaire@islandnet.com Mon Jan 19 03:22:07 2009 Message-Id: <7542338E-70C2-4E6F-92B7-C941236B91EC@islandnet.com> From: Diane Whitehead Subject: evergreen chives? Date: Mon, 19 Jan 2009 00:21:23 -0800 Yes. A herb website in the U.K. says it is evergreen except in very cold winters. However, none of my plants keep their leaves past November, and it is not always cold then. ( I should check to see if there is a correlation with Dahlia and A. schoenoprasum.) Diane On 18-Jan-09, at 11:39 PM, Lauw de Jager wrote: > Diana, > I assume that mean Allium schoenoprasum? > Its vegetative period is here (in our méditerranean climate) from > March till November From PJOSPUX@aol.com Mon Jan 19 05:05:37 2009 Message-Id: From: PJOSPUX@aol.com Subject: evergreen chives? Date: Mon, 19 Jan 2009 05:05:29 EST Yes it is evergreen here in Kent SE UK, but it stops growing for at least three months so if cropped you've had it until the spring. I suppose cloches would help provide some better growing conditions. Paul..wet, windy and foul From DavBouch5@aol.com Mon Jan 19 05:33:52 2009 Message-Id: From: DavBouch5@aol.com Subject: evergreen chives? Date: Mon, 19 Jan 2009 05:33:45 EST Diane There is a variety of chives with pink flowers, and also one with white flowers that grow all year here in Hawaii.. Don't know the names, but evergreen chives exist. David Boucher ************** Inauguration '09: Get complete coverage from the nation's capital. (http://news.aol.com/main/politics/inauguration?ncid=emlcntusnews00000003) From B.J.M.Zonneveld@biology.leidenuniv.nl Mon Jan 19 07:15:55 2009 Message-Id: <8E19E8A2233ED74D8483ACF3FBB3603B0268A60E@iblmail.ibl.leidenuniv.nl> From: "B.J.M. Zonneveld" Subject: Bowiea Nana Date: Mon, 19 Jan 2009 13:15:50 +0100 I incline to agree with Alberto on Bowiea differences However I don't know what nana is ( kilimandscharica? ) That is why I asked for seed. Roy Herold offered to send me some. He also ponted me to a nice picture of Nana but I could not see any difference with kilim. b.j.m.zonneveld@biology.leidenuniv.nl Institute of Molecular Plant Sciences Clusius laboratory PBox 9505 2300RA Leiden The Netherlands From aley_wd@mac.com Mon Jan 19 08:26:02 2009 Message-Id: <13893909725664732583672052267378794314-Webmail@me.com> From: WDA Subject: Plant exchange options Date: Mon, 19 Jan 2009 08:25:35 -0500 Hi Peter, As a "lurker" to the PBS web dialog,I always find the conversation threads about plant exchanges interesting and when the annual plant, seed and bulb exchange starts to go full swing I think that it's important to remind the group about import requirements of transferring living plant material internationally. For many countries there a few restrictions while other countries have very precise rules. It's important to know what those restrictions are for successful plant material exchanges. I am not advocating what's right and fair nor justifying why it's necessary to work around the plant cops, but awareness, If for no other reason than to avoid loosing limited or rare plant material is always in one's best interest. In the USA, APHIS is trying to change many of the existing requirements to allow plant movement while minimizing plant and environment pest risk. It goes without saying that the USA requirements can be complex and often lacking equality when not transiting through the commercial systems. There are a few programs established such as the small lots of seed and the 12 plants or less that try to equalize between corporate growers and individual collectors. Usually phytosanitary certificates are required for almost all transactions. Sometimes these documents, when the right government official can be found, cost more than the plant material one is shipping. When sending to the USA, any plant material without a phytosanitary certificate, (unless the recipient has an appropriate permit), involves a certain amount of risk to loosing the material. The laws and requirements that are in place have been as the result of a previous problem.The requirements are not put in place to punish or exclude individuals, but some are outdated and the Department of Homeland Security continues to increase their presence in both mail facilities and small package systems and the tools the use to detect and find are getting more refined and they increase the numbers of staff who are looking for anything not within the official processes. Even having the right documents may not be enough sometimes, but lacking them altogether, when the material is found it will result in the loss and destruction. Like it or not, DHS keeps records of infractions and they will investigate and follow up on individuals with a history of plant "smuggling" which is a term used when someone ships without the appropriate documents. Recently they have been accessing fines and penalties to the importer for the actions of the exporter. Under the current legal system the government has been winning cases of the importer not preparing the exporter sufficiently or ensuring that the appropriate documents are in the shipment and the rewarding the importer with stiff financial penalties. I always suggest individuals become aware and educated about how the process works then find ways to make it adapt to your own individual situations. There is a saying in the anti-smuggling business. "We only catch the dumb ones and we are constantly training the next generation of smugglers". Personally I believe that it's much easier to learn how to work within the systems because in the end, everyone gets what they want. I'll go back to lurking on the sidelines Bill Aley From aley_wd@mac.com Mon Jan 19 08:34:42 2009 Message-Id: <64623766904325600605678877005948486400-Webmail@me.com> From: WDA Subject: Plant exchange options Date: Mon, 19 Jan 2009 08:34:39 -0500 Hi Peter, As a "lurker" to the PBS web dialog,I always find the conversation threads about plant exchanges interesting and when the annual plant, seed and bulb exchange starts to go full swing I think that it's important to remind the group about import requirements of transferring living plant material internationally. For many countries there a few restrictions while other countries have very precise rules. It's important to know what those restrictions are for successful plant material exchanges. I am not advocating what's right and fair nor justifying why it's necessary to work around the plant cops, but awareness, If for no other reason than to avoid loosing limited or rare plant material is always in one's best interest. In the USA, APHIS is trying to change many of the existing requirements to allow plant movement while minimizing plant and environment pest risk. It goes without saying that the USA requirements can be complex and often lacking equality when not transiting through the commercial systems. There are a few programs established such as the small lots of seed and the 12 plants or less that try to equalize between corporate growers and individual collectors. Usually phytosanitary certificates are required for almost all transactions. Sometimes these documents, when the right government official can be found, cost more than the plant material one is shipping. When sending to the USA, any plant material without a phytosanitary certificate, (unless the recipient has an appropriate permit), involves a certain amount of risk to loosing the material. The laws and requirements that are in place have been as the result of a previous problem.The requirements are not put in place to punish or exclude individuals, but some are outdated and the Department of Homeland Security continues to increase their presence in both mail facilities and small package systems and the tools the use to detect and find are getting more refined and they increase the numbers of staff who are looking for anything not within the official processes. Even having the right documents may not be enough sometimes, but lacking them altogether, when the material is found it will result in the loss and destruction. Like it or not, DHS keeps records of infractions and they will investigate and follow up on individuals with a history of plant "smuggling" which is a term used when someone ships without the appropriate documents. Recently they have been accessing fines and penalties to the importer for the actions of the exporter. Under the current legal system the government has been winning cases of the importer not preparing the exporter sufficiently or ensuring that the appropriate documents are in the shipment and the rewarding the importer with stiff financial penalties. I always suggest individuals become aware and educated about how the process works then find ways to make it adapt to your own individual situations. There is a saying in the anti-smuggling business. "We only catch the dumb ones and we are constantly training the next generation of smugglers". Personally I believe that it's much easier to learn how to work within the systems because in the end, everyone gets what they want. I'll go back to lurking on the sidelines Bill Aley From email@ruthbierhoff.com Mon Jan 19 12:52:06 2009 Message-Id: From: "Ruth Bierhoff" Subject: Membership renewal Date: Mon, 19 Jan 2009 12:52:04 -0500 Hi Dell, To the best of my knowledge my membership is good to Jan 1/2010. I became a new member in October 2008. If I need to renew anyway, please let me know. Thanks, Ruth Bierhoff ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dell Sherk" To: "'Adam Fikso'" ; "Annalee" ; "Cathy Craig" ; ; "Douglas Westfall" ; "General PBS forum" ; "John Lonsdale" ; "'Macfarlane'" ; "'Mark'" ; "'Mark Wilcox'" ; "'Pat Colville'" ; "The Masterson Family" Sent: Sunday, January 18, 2009 3:00 PM Subject: [pbs] Membership renewal > Hi All, > > It is a new year, and some of you still have not renewed your PBS > membership > by paying your dues for 2009. If you want to keep getting the treasures > that > the PBS BX has to offer, renew right away. Go to the website: > www.pacificbulbsociety.org > > Best wishes, > Dell > > Dell Sherk, PBS BX > > _______________________________________________ > pbs mailing list > pbs@lists.ibiblio.org > http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php > http://pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki > > From adam14113@ameritech.net Mon Jan 19 13:39:19 2009 Message-Id: <1C9F58F340254AEBB0C7D4BD2E4BF874@FAMILY> From: "Adam Fikso" Subject: pbs Digest, Vol 72, Issue 25 Date: Mon, 19 Jan 2009 12:38:28 -0600 Thank you, Bill Aley. This whole area has become unnecessarily complicated as a result of its being run by Homeland Security and a different kind of bureaucratization keyed to threat, real or not.. ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Monday, January 19, 2009 11:52 AM Subject: pbs Digest, Vol 72, Issue 25 > Send pbs mailing list submissions to > pbs@lists.ibiblio.org > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > pbs-request@lists.ibiblio.org > > You can reach the person managing the list at > pbs-owner@lists.ibiblio.org > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > than "Re: Contents of pbs digest..." > > > List-Post:<mailto:pbs@lists.ibiblio.org> > List-Archive:<http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/pbslist> > > Today's Topics: > > 1. Re: Norm Kalbfleisch added you as a connection on Plaxo > (Douglas Westfall) > 2. New Email (Dell Sherk) > 3. Pacific BX 195 (Dell Sherk) > 4. Membership renewal (Dell Sherk) > 5. evergreen chives? (Diane Whitehead) > 6. Re: evergreen chives? (Lauw de Jager) > 7. Re: evergreen chives? (Diane Whitehead) > 8. Re: evergreen chives? (PJOSPUX@aol.com) > 9. Re: evergreen chives? (DavBouch5@aol.com) > 10. Bowiea Nana (B.J.M. Zonneveld) > 11. Plant exchange options (WDA) > 12. Plant exchange options (WDA) > 13. Re: Membership renewal (Ruth Bierhoff) > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Message: 1 > Date: Sun, 18 Jan 2009 11:30:41 -0800 > From: Douglas Westfall > Subject: Re: [pbs] Norm Kalbfleisch added you as a connection on Plaxo > To: Pacific Bulb Society > Message-ID: <4288E57C-645D-4F39-9591-92576BC8803B@flash.net> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed > > "Norm Kalbfleisch wants to add you as a connection on Plaxo." > > DO NOT, REPEAT, DO NOT ADD MY NAME OR EMAIL ADDRESS!!! > > DOUG WESTFALL > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 2 > Date: Sun, 18 Jan 2009 14:44:42 -0500 > From: "Dell Sherk" > Subject: [pbs] New Email > To: "General PBS forum" > Message-ID: <000e01c979a5$3565f990$a031ecb0$@net> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > > Dear All, > > > > I have a new email address. The old one dells@voicenet.com still works for > the time being, but please start using the new one ds429@comcast.net > > > > Best wishes, > > Dell > > > > Dell Sherk, PBS BX > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 3 > Date: Sun, 18 Jan 2009 14:41:34 -0500 > From: "Dell Sherk" > Subject: [pbs] Pacific BX 195 > To: "'Adam Fikso'" , "Annalee" > , "Cathy Craig" , > , "Douglas Westfall" , "General > PBS forum" , "John Lonsdale" > , "'Macfarlane'" , > "'Mark'" , "'Mark Wilcox'" , > "'Pat Colville'" , "The Masterson > Family" > Message-ID: <000d01c979a4$c53aeae0$4fb0c0a0$@net> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > > Dear All, > > The items listed below have been donated by our members to be > shared. > > If you are interested in obtaining some of them, please email me > PRIVATELY > at . Include "BX 195" in the subject line. > > Specify the NUMBERS of the items which you would like; do not > specify quantities. It is a good idea to include your snail mail address, > too, in case I don't already have it. Availability is based on a first > come, > first served system. When you receive your seeds/bulbs you will find, > included with them, a statement of how much money (usually $2.00/item) > (cash, check, or Pay Pal to ; no money orders, please) > you > should send the PBS treasurer to defray our costs for packing and > first-class, priority-mail, or international postage. > > PLEASE NOTE: NEW POSTAL-RATE SCHEMES NECESSITATE OUR PLACING A SURCHARGE > ON > EACH ORDER FROM PBS BX OFFERINGS. > > Some of you are members of the online PBS discussion forum but are not > members of the Pacific Bulb Society. THIS BX OFFERING IS AVAILABLE ONLY TO > MEMBERS OF THE PBS. Consider joining the PBS so that you can take > advantage > of future offers such as this. Go to our website: > http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org .... > > If you would like to donate seeds or bulbs/corms to the > PBS,(Donors > will receive credit on the BX for the cost of postage for their > donations.), > please send CLEAN, clearly labeled material to: > > Dell Sherk > 6832 Phillips Mill Rd. > New Hope, PA, 18938 > USA > > I WILL REPLY TO YOU WITHIN 24 HRS OF MY RECEIPT OF YOUR ORDER. > IF YOU DO NOT HEAR FROM ME, TRY AGAIN !! > >From Pieter van der Walt: > > SEEDS: > > 1. Boophone disticha, "courtesy of BuPSSA, the Bulbous Plant Society of > Southern African -?a?lively group of gardeners, botanists?and > horticulturists who meet once a month at the Walter Sisulu Botanical > Garden > in Roodepoort, Gauteng, for a talk about bulbs by an expert speaker. > BuPSSA > has been going for about two years now, and hope to have a webpage up and > running in the near future to facilitate communication, post articles and > manage the seed exchange that?sprouted from?its meetings. BuPSSA aims to > serve a similar membership?than IBSA, but for the Northern regions of > South > Africa, international membership will also become possible in the future, > once their journal has been sorted out." > ? > 2. Crinum ligulatum, "originally from Itremo, Madagascar. The seeds?are > from?hand-pollinated plants in my collection. This is a very beautiful > species." > ? > 3. Nelumbo nucifera var. caspicum aka Russian Red Lotus, "from the Volga > River Delta in Russia, I received my original material from Walter Pagels > who is known the world over?for his contributions to watergardening. These > have single, dark pink flowers which are produced prolifically through > summer." > > Thank you, Pieter !! > > Best wishes, > Dell > > Dell Sherk, Director, PBS BX > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 4 > Date: Sun, 18 Jan 2009 15:00:33 -0500 > From: "Dell Sherk" > Subject: [pbs] Membership renewal > To: "'Adam Fikso'" , "Annalee" > , "Cathy Craig" , > , "Douglas Westfall" , "General > PBS forum" , "John Lonsdale" > , "'Macfarlane'" , > "'Mark'" , "'Mark Wilcox'" , > "'Pat Colville'" , "The Masterson > Family" > Message-ID: <001401c979a7$6c825570$45870050$@net> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > > Hi All, > > It is a new year, and some of you still have not renewed your PBS > membership > by paying your dues for 2009. If you want to keep getting the treasures > that > the PBS BX has to offer, renew right away. Go to the website: > www.pacificbulbsociety.org > > Best wishes, > Dell > > Dell Sherk, PBS BX > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 5 > Date: Sun, 18 Jan 2009 23:18:54 -0800 > From: Diane Whitehead > Subject: [pbs] evergreen chives? > To: Pacific Bulb Society > Message-ID: <8258D75B-8F5A-414F-943E-CB762586D1D5@islandnet.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes > > I am planning projects for the summer and decided I really want to > grow some evergreen chives. I can pick all my herbs year round except > for basil, chives and mint. Of those, chives are the ones most > frequently used. > > I checked the wiki chives page,which shows lots of pretty flowers, > but it doesn't mention whether any of them keep their leaves. > > Does anyone know of evergreen ones? > > Diane Whitehead > Victoria, British Columbia, Canada > maritime zone 8, cool Mediterranean climate > mild rainy winters, mild dry summers > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 6 > Date: Mon, 19 Jan 2009 08:39:50 +0100 > From: Lauw de Jager > Subject: Re: [pbs] evergreen chives? > To: Pacific Bulb Society > Message-ID: > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" > > Diana, > I assume that mean Allium schoenoprasum? > Its vegetative period is here (in our m?diterranean climate) from March > till November For more information see growing cycle in the link: > http://www.bulbargence.com/m_catalogue/article.php?id_categorie=24&id_articl > e=44&val= > `Transplanting is generally done during the winter months. > Kind greetings > > -- Lauw de Jager > Bulb'Argence > South of France (zone 9 (olive trees) > emailto: dejager@bulbargence.com > Site www.bulbargence.com > > > > > Le 19/01/09 8:18, ??Diane Whitehead?? a ?crit?: > >> I am planning projects for the summer and decided I really want to >> grow some evergreen chives. I can pick all my herbs year round except >> for basil, chives and mint. Of those, chives are the ones most >> frequently used. >> I checked the wiki chives page,which shows lots of pretty flowers, >> but it doesn't mention whether any of them keep their leaves. > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 7 > Date: Mon, 19 Jan 2009 00:21:23 -0800 > From: Diane Whitehead > Subject: Re: [pbs] evergreen chives? > To: Pacific Bulb Society > Message-ID: <7542338E-70C2-4E6F-92B7-C941236B91EC@islandnet.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed; delsp=yes > > Yes. A herb website in the U.K. says it is evergreen except in very > cold winters. However, none of my plants keep their leaves past > November, and it is not always cold then. ( I should check to see if > there is a correlation with Dahlia and A. schoenoprasum.) > > Diane > > > On 18-Jan-09, at 11:39 PM, Lauw de Jager wrote: > >> Diana, >> I assume that mean Allium schoenoprasum? >> Its vegetative period is here (in our m?diterranean climate) from >> March till November > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 8 > Date: Mon, 19 Jan 2009 05:05:29 EST > From: PJOSPUX@aol.com > Subject: Re: [pbs] evergreen chives? > To: pbs@lists.ibiblio.org > Message-ID: > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" > > Yes it is evergreen here in Kent SE UK, but it stops growing for at least > three months so if cropped you've had it until the spring. I suppose > cloches > would help provide some better growing conditions. > > Paul..wet, windy and foul > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 9 > Date: Mon, 19 Jan 2009 05:33:45 EST > From: DavBouch5@aol.com > Subject: Re: [pbs] evergreen chives? > To: pbs@lists.ibiblio.org > Message-ID: > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" > > Diane > > There is a variety of chives with pink flowers, and also one with white > flowers that grow all year here in Hawaii.. Don't know the names, but > evergreen > chives exist. > > David Boucher > > > ************** > Inauguration '09: Get complete coverage from the > nation's capital. > (http://news.aol.com/main/politics/inauguration?ncid=emlcntusnews00000003) > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 10 > Date: Mon, 19 Jan 2009 13:15:50 +0100 > From: "B.J.M. Zonneveld" > Subject: [pbs] Bowiea Nana > To: > Message-ID: > <8E19E8A2233ED74D8483ACF3FBB3603B0268A60E@iblmail.ibl.leidenuniv.nl> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" > > I incline to agree with Alberto on Bowiea differences However I don't > know what nana is ( kilimandscharica? ) That is why I asked for seed. > Roy Herold offered to send me some. He also ponted me to a nice picture > of Nana but I could not see any difference with kilim. > b.j.m.zonneveld@biology.leidenuniv.nl > Institute of Molecular Plant Sciences > Clusius laboratory > PBox 9505 > 2300RA Leiden > The Netherlands > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 11 > Date: Mon, 19 Jan 2009 08:25:35 -0500 > From: WDA > Subject: [pbs] Plant exchange options > To: Pacific Bulb Society > Message-ID: <13893909725664732583672052267378794314-Webmail@me.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 > > Hi Peter, > As a "lurker" to the PBS web dialog,I always find the conversation threads > about plant exchanges interesting and when the annual plant, seed and bulb > exchange starts to go full swing I think that it's important to remind the > group about import requirements of transferring living plant material > internationally. For many countries there a few restrictions while other > countries have very precise rules. It's important to know what those > restrictions are for successful plant material exchanges. I am not > advocating what's right and fair nor justifying why it's necessary to work > around the plant cops, but awareness, If for no other reason than to avoid > loosing limited or rare plant material is always in one's best interest. > In the USA, APHIS is trying to change many of the existing requirements > to allow plant movement while minimizing plant and environment pest risk. > It goes without saying that the USA requirements can be complex and often > lacking equality when not transiting through the commercial systems. > There are a few programs established such as the small lots of seed and > the 12 plants or less that try to equalize between corporate growers and > individual collectors. Usually phytosanitary certificates are required for > almost all transactions. Sometimes these documents, when the right > government official can be found, cost more than the plant material one is > shipping. > When sending to the USA, any plant material without a phytosanitary > certificate, (unless the recipient has an appropriate permit), involves a > certain amount of risk to loosing the material. The laws and requirements > that are in place have been as the result of a previous problem.The > requirements are not put in place to punish or exclude individuals, but > some are outdated and the Department of Homeland Security continues to > increase their presence in both mail facilities and small package systems > and the tools the use to detect and find are getting more refined and > they increase the numbers of staff who are looking for anything not within > the official processes. Even having the right documents may not be enough > sometimes, but lacking them altogether, when the material is found it will > result in the loss and destruction. Like it or not, DHS keeps records of > infractions and they will investigate and follow up on individuals with a > history of plant "smuggling" which is a term > used when someone ships without the appropriate documents. Recently they > have been accessing fines and penalties to the importer for the actions of > the exporter. Under the current legal system the government has been > winning cases of the importer not preparing the exporter sufficiently or > ensuring that the appropriate documents are in the shipment and the > rewarding the importer with stiff financial penalties. > I always suggest individuals become aware and educated about how the > process works then find ways to make it adapt to your own individual > situations. > There is a saying in the anti-smuggling business. "We only catch the dumb > ones and we are constantly training the next generation of smugglers". > Personally I believe that it's much easier to learn how to work within the > systems because in the end, everyone gets what they want. > > I'll go back to lurking on the sidelines > Bill Aley > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 12 > Date: Mon, 19 Jan 2009 08:34:39 -0500 > From: WDA > Subject: [pbs] Plant exchange options > To: Pacific Bulb Society > Message-ID: <64623766904325600605678877005948486400-Webmail@me.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 > > Hi Peter, > As a "lurker" to the PBS web dialog,I always find the conversation threads > about plant exchanges interesting and when the annual plant, seed and bulb > exchange starts to go full swing I think that it's important to remind the > group about import requirements of transferring living plant material > internationally. For many countries there a few restrictions while other > countries have very precise rules. It's important to know what those > restrictions are for successful plant material exchanges. I am not > advocating what's right and fair nor justifying why it's necessary to work > around the plant cops, but awareness, If for no other reason than to avoid > loosing limited or rare plant material is always in one's best interest. > In the USA, APHIS is trying to change many of the existing requirements > to allow plant movement while minimizing plant and environment pest risk. > It goes without saying that the USA requirements can be complex and often > lacking equality when not transiting through the commercial systems. > There are a few programs established such as the small lots of seed and > the 12 plants or less that try to equalize between corporate growers and > individual collectors. Usually phytosanitary certificates are required for > almost all transactions. Sometimes these documents, when the right > government official can be found, cost more than the plant material one is > shipping. > When sending to the USA, any plant material without a phytosanitary > certificate, (unless the recipient has an appropriate permit), involves a > certain amount of risk to loosing the material. The laws and requirements > that are in place have been as the result of a previous problem.The > requirements are not put in place to punish or exclude individuals, but > some are outdated and the Department of Homeland Security continues to > increase their presence in both mail facilities and small package systems > and the tools the use to detect and find are getting more refined and > they increase the numbers of staff who are looking for anything not within > the official processes. Even having the right documents may not be enough > sometimes, but lacking them altogether, when the material is found it will > result in the loss and destruction. Like it or not, DHS keeps records of > infractions and they will investigate and follow up on individuals with a > history of plant "smuggling" which is a term > used when someone ships without the appropriate documents. Recently they > have been accessing fines and penalties to the importer for the actions of > the exporter. Under the current legal system the government has been > winning cases of the importer not preparing the exporter sufficiently or > ensuring that the appropriate documents are in the shipment and the > rewarding the importer with stiff financial penalties. > I always suggest individuals become aware and educated about how the > process works then find ways to make it adapt to your own individual > situations. > There is a saying in the anti-smuggling business. "We only catch the dumb > ones and we are constantly training the next generation of smugglers". > Personally I believe that it's much easier to learn how to work within the > systems because in the end, everyone gets what they want. > > I'll go back to lurking on the sidelines > Bill Aley > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 13 > Date: Mon, 19 Jan 2009 12:52:04 -0500 > From: "Ruth Bierhoff" > Subject: Re: [pbs] Membership renewal > To: "Pacific Bulb Society" > Message-ID: > Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; > reply-type=original > > Hi Dell, > To the best of my knowledge my membership is good to Jan 1/2010. I became > a > new member in October 2008. If I need to renew anyway, please let me know. > Thanks, > Ruth Bierhoff > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Dell Sherk" > To: "'Adam Fikso'" ; "Annalee" > ; "Cathy Craig" ; > ; "Douglas Westfall" ; "General PBS > forum" ; "John Lonsdale" ; > "'Macfarlane'" ; "'Mark'" ; > "'Mark Wilcox'" ; "'Pat Colville'" > ; "The Masterson Family" > > Sent: Sunday, January 18, 2009 3:00 PM > Subject: [pbs] Membership renewal > > >> Hi All, >> >> It is a new year, and some of you still have not renewed your PBS >> membership >> by paying your dues for 2009. If you want to keep getting the treasures >> that >> the PBS BX has to offer, renew right away. Go to the website: >> www.pacificbulbsociety.org >> >> Best wishes, >> Dell >> >> Dell Sherk, PBS BX >> >> _______________________________________________ >> pbs mailing list >> pbs@lists.ibiblio.org >> http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php >> http://pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki >> >> > > > > ------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > pbs mailing list > pbs@lists.ibiblio.org > http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php > > > End of pbs Digest, Vol 72, Issue 25 > *********************************** From zigur@hotmail.com Mon Jan 19 13:49:43 2009 Message-Id: From: Tim Harvey Subject: Plant exchange options Date: Mon, 19 Jan 2009 10:49:35 -0800 I can't help but wonder why you're a member of this list ...> Date: Mon, 19 Jan 2009 08:25:35 -0500> From: aley_wd@mac.com> To: pbs@lists.ibiblio.org> Subject: [pbs] Plant exchange options> > Hi Peter,> As a "lurker" to the PBS web dialog,I always find the conversation threads about plant exchanges interesting and when the annual plant, seed and bulb exchange starts to go full swing I think that it's important to remind the group about import requirements of transferring living plant material internationally. For many countries there a few restrictions while other countries have very precise rules. It's important to know what those restrictions are for successful plant material exchanges. I am not advocating what's right and fair nor justifying why it's necessary to work around the plant cops, but awareness, If for no other reason than to avoid loosing limited or rare plant material is always in one's best interest. > In the USA, APHIS is trying to change many of the existing requirements to allow plant movement while minimizing plant and environment pest risk. It goes without saying that the USA requirements can be complex and often lacking equality when not transiting through the commercial systems. There are a few programs established such as the small lots of seed and the 12 plants or less that try to equalize between corporate growers and individual collectors. Usually phytosanitary certificates are required for almost all transactions. Sometimes these documents, when the right government official can be found, cost more than the plant material one is shipping. > When sending to the USA, any plant material without a phytosanitary certificate, (unless the recipient has an appropriate permit), involves a certain amount of risk to loosing the material. The laws and requirements that are in place have been as the result of a previous problem.The requirements are not put in place to punish or exclude individuals, but some are outdated and the Department of Homeland Security continues to increase their presence in both mail facilities and small package systems and the tools the use to detect and find are getting more refined and they increase the numbers of staff who are looking for anything not within the official processes. Even having the right documents may not be enough sometimes, but lacking them altogether, when the material is found it will result in the loss and destruction. Like it or not, DHS keeps records of infractions and they will investigate and follow up on individuals with a history of plant "smuggling" which is a term > used when someone ships without the appropriate documents. Recently they have been accessing fines and penalties to the importer for the actions of the exporter. Under the current legal system the government has been winning cases of the importer not preparing the exporter sufficiently or ensuring that the appropriate documents are in the shipment and the rewarding the importer with stiff financial penalties. > I always suggest individuals become aware and educated about how the process works then find ways to make it adapt to your own individual situations.> There is a saying in the anti-smuggling business. "We only catch the dumb ones and we are constantly training the next generation of smugglers". Personally I believe that it's much easier to learn how to work within the systems because in the end, everyone gets what they want.> > I'll go back to lurking on the sidelines> Bill Aley> _______________________________________________> pbs mailing list> pbs@lists.ibiblio.org> http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php> http://pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki From ds429@comcast.net Mon Jan 19 13:58:34 2009 Message-Id: <003301c97a67$eefabe00$ccf03a00$@net> From: "Dell Sherk" Subject: Membership renewal Date: Mon, 19 Jan 2009 13:58:35 -0500 Dear Ruth, According to my records, you are paid up until 1/10 Dell -----Original Message----- From: pbs-bounces@lists.ibiblio.org [mailto:pbs-bounces@lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf Of Ruth Bierhoff Sent: Monday, January 19, 2009 12:52 PM To: Pacific Bulb Society Subject: Re: [pbs] Membership renewal Hi Dell, To the best of my knowledge my membership is good to Jan 1/2010. I became a new member in October 2008. If I need to renew anyway, please let me know. Thanks, Ruth Bierhoff ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dell Sherk" To: "'Adam Fikso'" ; "Annalee" ; "Cathy Craig" ; ; "Douglas Westfall" ; "General PBS forum" ; "John Lonsdale" ; "'Macfarlane'" ; "'Mark'" ; "'Mark Wilcox'" ; "'Pat Colville'" ; "The Masterson Family" Sent: Sunday, January 18, 2009 3:00 PM Subject: [pbs] Membership renewal > Hi All, > > It is a new year, and some of you still have not renewed your PBS > membership > by paying your dues for 2009. If you want to keep getting the treasures > that > the PBS BX has to offer, renew right away. Go to the website: > www.pacificbulbsociety.org > > Best wishes, > Dell > > Dell Sherk, PBS BX > > _______________________________________________ > pbs mailing list > pbs@lists.ibiblio.org > http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php > http://pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki > > _______________________________________________ pbs mailing list pbs@lists.ibiblio.org http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php http://pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki From jimmckenney@jimmckenney.com Mon Jan 19 14:35:10 2009 Message-Id: <003001c97a6d$8d2a3fb0$2f01a8c0@Library> From: "Jim McKenney" Subject: Plant exchange options Date: Mon, 19 Jan 2009 14:38:47 -0500 Bill Aley wrote: “Like it or not, DHS keeps records of infractions and they will investigate and follow up on individuals with a history of plant "smuggling" which is a term used when someone ships without the appropriate documents. Recently they have been accessing fines and penalties to the importer for the actions of the exporter. Under the current legal system the government has been winning cases of the importer not preparing the exporter sufficiently or ensuring that the appropriate documents are in the shipment and the rewarding the importer with stiff financial penalties. “ Yikes! Maybe I’m on their list. I’ve received seeds from foreign sources which were sent through the mail without any documentation. But it sure wasn’t my fault: I spent about $5 in postage to mail the proper documentation to the sender (my small lots seed import and the associated documentation). Because of potential language problems, I filled everything out and all that would have been necessary on the part of the sender was to remove the documentation from my envelope and transfer them to the envelope to be sent. But the sender, a private individual and not a business, unilaterally decided that they did not want to generate a paper trail which authorities on their end might be able to trace. No doubt there are cases where the importer and exported are in collusion, and those cases should be pursued. But probably much more frequent are those cases where our friends overseas think they are doing us a favor when they take shortcuts. Bill, I hope we can count on you to keep before the rule makers the complete lack of control we as individual prospective importers have over the actions of the senders. Jim McKenney jimmckenney@jimmckenney.com Montgomery County, Maryland, USA, 39.03871º North, 77.09829º West, USDA zone 7 My Virtual Maryland Garden http://www.jimmckenney.com BLOG! http://mcwort.blogspot.com/ Webmaster Potomac Valley Chapter, NARGS Editor PVC Bulletin http://www.pvcnargs.org Webmaster Potomac Lily Society http://www.potomaclilysociety.org From jimmckenney@jimmckenney.com Mon Jan 19 15:07:10 2009 Message-Id: <003501c97a72$04f5ae40$2f01a8c0@Library> From: "Jim McKenney" Subject: the protected cold frame Date: Mon, 19 Jan 2009 15:10:46 -0500 Those of you who have been following my posts for the last several years know that I have frequently mentioned my “protected cold frame”. I have several cold frames, but only one is called the protected cold frame. This little cold frame has dome more to expand my horticultural horizons than anything else in my recent gardening experience. I’ve been able to grow plants in that cold frame which I once thought I would never be able to grow here. This cold frame is now in its third winter. The first two winters were relatively mild zone 8 winters for the most part: there were few extended periods of severe cold and the temperature only dipped into the zone 7 range briefly. This left me with nagging doubts about the true effectiveness of this frame. Last week we experienced some solid zone 7 winter conditions: for most of a three day period the temperature did not rise above the freezing point, and last Saturday morning the low temperature early in the morning was +3° F (about -16° C). As the cold front began to move in I closed the frame and covered it with a double ply tarp – and then crossed my fingers. It was with a genuine sense of trepidation that I opened the cold frame for the first time three days later on Sunday afternoon. The news was all good: other than some very minor burn where some foliage touched the glass, everything looked fine. Everything in this case includes such things as Amaryllis belladonna in full leaf, Lachenalia in full leaf, tazetta daffodils about to bloom, Freesia, Gladiolus, Sparaxis and Babiana in active growth, a full grown Cyclamen persicum from the florist months ago (still in bloom) and dozens and dozens of fascinating odds and ends. For those of you in similar climates who are not running a protected cold frame, you don’t know what you are missing. Jim McKenney jimmckenney@jimmckenney.com Montgomery County, Maryland, USA, 39.03871º North, 77.09829º West, USDA zone 7 My Virtual Maryland Garden http://www.jimmckenney.com BLOG! http://mcwort.blogspot.com/ Webmaster Potomac Valley Chapter, NARGS Editor PVC Bulletin http://www.pvcnargs.org Webmaster Potomac Lily Society http://www.potomaclilysociety.org From Pat.Colville@JHResearchUSA.com Mon Jan 19 15:16:21 2009 Message-Id: <30909A06CD1CB64EA29DF0A811DF70C001708BC3@mvhmail3.USA.hardie.win> From: Pat Colville Subject: Membership renewal Date: Mon, 19 Jan 2009 12:18:37 -0800 Hello Ruth: Your membership is good until the end of this year. I will get the corrected records to Dell Pat Colville PBS Membership Director 1555 washburn R. Pasadena, CA 91105 Tel: 909- 349-2933 Fax 909- 427-0634   "THIS DOCUMENT IS INTENDED FOR THE USE OF THE PARTY TO WHOM IT IS ADDRESSED AND MAY CONTAIN INFORMATION THAT IS CONFIDENTIAL"  If you are not the intended recipient and have received this document in error , please return it to the originator and ensure its destruction. Any dissemination or copying of this document and its attachments by any one other than the addressee is strictly prohibited. -----Original Message----- From: pbs-bounces@lists.ibiblio.org [mailto:pbs-bounces@lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf Of Ruth Bierhoff Sent: Monday, January 19, 2009 9:52 AM To: Pacific Bulb Society Subject: Re: [pbs] Membership renewal Hi Dell, To the best of my knowledge my membership is good to Jan 1/2010. I became a new member in October 2008. If I need to renew anyway, please let me know. Thanks, Ruth Bierhoff ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dell Sherk" To: "'Adam Fikso'" ; "Annalee" ; "Cathy Craig" ; ; "Douglas Westfall" ; "General PBS forum" ; "John Lonsdale" ; "'Macfarlane'" ; "'Mark'" ; "'Mark Wilcox'" ; "'Pat Colville'" ; "The Masterson Family" Sent: Sunday, January 18, 2009 3:00 PM Subject: [pbs] Membership renewal > Hi All, > > It is a new year, and some of you still have not renewed your PBS > membership > by paying your dues for 2009. If you want to keep getting the treasures > that > the PBS BX has to offer, renew right away. Go to the website: > www.pacificbulbsociety.org > > Best wishes, > Dell > > Dell Sherk, PBS BX > > _______________________________________________ > pbs mailing list > pbs@lists.ibiblio.org > http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php > http://pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki > > _______________________________________________ pbs mailing list pbs@lists.ibiblio.org http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php http://pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki From oothal@hotmail.com Mon Jan 19 15:20:44 2009 Message-Id: From: Justin Smith Subject: Plant exchange options Date: Mon, 19 Jan 2009 14:20:42 -0600 Recently they have been accessing fines and penalties to the importer for the actions of> the exporter. Under the current legal system the government has been winning> cases of the importer not preparing the exporter sufficiently or ensuring> that the appropriate documents are in the shipment and the rewarding the> importer with stiff financial penalties. “> Hi all, Seems like all you have to do is send a email to anyone you buy seed from. Enclose a link to the USDA website and state something like. "You must follow all rules and regulations stated in the website I have provided a link to." I think that would just about be the best you could do to CYA. or Make it so each email you send has a EULA. Before reading email you must agree to follow all rules and regulations set forth by the USDA. LOL Justin Woodville, TX 8b/9a _________________________________________________________________ Windows Live™: Keep your life in sync. http://windowslive.com/explore?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_t1_allup_explore_012009 From arnold@nj.rr.com Mon Jan 19 17:05:44 2009 Message-Id: <4974F8A6.7060904@nj.rr.com> From: Arnold Trachtenberg Subject: membership payments Date: Mon, 19 Jan 2009 17:03:18 -0500 There has been a flurry of activity following Dell's note on 2009 dues. I would ask that if you pay via PayPal indicate in the 'comment section' that this is for 2009 dues. If you pay via check write in the memo section '2009 dues'. Thank you for supporting the Pacific Bulb Society. Arnold Trachtenberg Treasurer PBS From Theladygardens@aol.com Mon Jan 19 17:10:37 2009 Message-Id: From: Theladygardens@aol.com Subject: membership payments Date: Mon, 19 Jan 2009 17:10:32 EST Just to let you know Arnold, there was no comment section when I paid. I looked for it, that's why I sent you an e-mail explaining. I thought there was always a comment section but wasn't this time. Carolyn **************Inauguration '09: Get complete coverage from the nation's capital.(http://www.aol.com?ncid=emlcntaolcom00000027) From arnold@nj.rr.com Mon Jan 19 17:21:09 2009 Message-Id: <4974FC42.9040104@nj.rr.com> From: Arnold Trachtenberg Subject: membership payments Date: Mon, 19 Jan 2009 17:18:42 -0500 Carolyn: Thanks for the note. I'll have a look. I never use Paypal, my email address is linked to the PBS account. Arnold From ksayce@willapabay.org Mon Jan 19 17:22:43 2009 Message-Id: From: Kathleen Sayce Subject: protected cold frame Date: Mon, 19 Jan 2009 14:22:10 -0800 OK, Jim, I'll bite. Tell us more about this protected cold frame. What is it made of, how deeply do you set it in the ground, what is the glazing? Internal height? Do you use insulation around the outside? Gravel base? Shade cloth in summer? How do you anchor the glazing in high winds, etc? I ran a commercial greenhouse for years, and so have held off going anywhere close to that direction for the past decade in my own garden, but having given in to the dark side and admitting that I adore geophyte (by joining PBS), I am now looking at how to grow those species that can't take zone 8 conditions. Details, please. Kathleen From toadlily@olywa.net Mon Jan 19 17:22:15 2009 Message-Id: <4974FD17.3010509@olywa.net> From: Laura & Dave Subject: Plant exchange options Date: Mon, 19 Jan 2009 14:22:15 -0800 An idea I've had that would help greatly is if there were instructions/conditions in as many languages as possible. The appropriate translated document could be sent with orders and all the rest of the documentation. It would be great if this was available on the APHIS website, but a bit much to expect considering their already strapped budget. Perhaps we as a group could take on the project I'm sure there are many languages represented here, and enough people to proofread the translations. Whether we would/could make the translated documents available, or give them to the government to post is an issue to be resolved. I know that it would help to be able to send instructions that are understood at the exporters' end, as I've had Jim's experience myself. I speak enough Spanish to travel and converse, but I have some difficulty with more technical and legal documents. I'm sure it is the same for many people who "speak" English. Heck, I have trouble with legal documents in English, even as a native speaker! Dave Brastow - Tumwater, Washington -usa- From dkramb@badbear.com Mon Jan 19 18:14:31 2009 Message-Id: <4975096A.6070700@badbear.com> From: Dennis Kramb Subject: Plant exchange options Date: Mon, 19 Jan 2009 18:14:50 -0500 Tim Harvey wrote: > I can't help but wonder why you're a member of this list ... Agreed!!! The reference to our annual plant, seed and bulb exchange was most amusing. :-) Dennis in Cincinnati, accused smuggler & threat to homeland security... apparently? lol. (checking the calendar to make sure it's not April 1.) > > Date: Mon, 19 Jan 2009 08:25:35 -0500> From: aley_wd@mac.com> To: pbs@lists.ibiblio.org> Subject: [pbs] Plant exchange options> > Hi Peter,> As a "lurker" to the PBS web dialog,I always find the conversation threads about plant exchanges interesting and when the annual plant, seed and bulb exchange starts to go full swing I think that it's important to remind the group about From voltaire@islandnet.com Mon Jan 19 18:30:41 2009 Message-Id: <58095D09-4E09-4B53-A43B-605804529F61@islandnet.com> From: Diane Whitehead Subject: Plant exchange options Date: Mon, 19 Jan 2009 15:29:56 -0800 On 19-Jan-09, at 11:38 AM, Jim McKenney wrote: > > Bill, I hope we can count on you to keep before the rule makers the > complete > lack of control we as individual prospective importers have over the > actions > of the senders. It's not just stuff coming in to the U.S., and it is not just non- English speakers. I could not get a U.S. inspector to write one sentence on my phyto that I knew was essential. He couldn't see it in the rule book he was looking in, so refused. When I got to the Canadian border, our inspector phoned him to fax a new phyto with that sentence added. I was the one who had to hang around waiting for the new paperwork. At least I didn't get charged another $23 for the second phyto. Diane Whitehead Victoria, B.C., Canada From aley_wd@mac.com Mon Jan 19 18:49:46 2009 Message-Id: <61819883451772744765254076209836199117-Webmail@me.com> From: WDA Subject: Plant exchanges Date: Mon, 19 Jan 2009 18:49:44 -0500 Sorry If I ruffled feathers. I'm not accusing anyone of doing anything wrong. I just thought it helpful to be educated in what the restrictions are and how to work within systems. If my presence within this forum is unwelcome I'll keep my fingers silent. Just trying to help. Perhaps I'll find another forum to participate with. Take care folks. From meenglis@meenglis.cts.com Mon Jan 19 21:05:57 2009 Message-Id: <49753180.6000504@meenglis.cts.com> From: Marguerite English Subject: Fw: Greentours San Diego Flora Date: Mon, 19 Jan 2009 18:05:52 -0800 Sorry all. I wanted to correct my error, but have been having computer problems. Cuyamaca Park ends at about 3500 feet; then it is Cleveland Natl forest that drops down into the community of Alpine, Ca. So sorry for the error. All the Manzanitas shrubs popped into bloom last week, so the first blooms are showing. Yea! Marguerite English wrote: > > Actually, Cuyamaca state park drops all the way down to Alpine, Ca., which is about 3000 ft alt. I live at 3700 ft, right under Mt. Cuyamaca on the southwest slope. We had snow on the peak through Christmas week; but that has now melted. We often get a few days of snow at this altitude during the 1st 3 months of the year, with a lot of rain and wind. It is definitely winter here at least through Feb. First few early bloom begins in late Feb. Apr-May have the best display. We have even had occasional snow on Easter. > > I do know the native herbaceous plants on this side of Cuyamaca. Most of my lists belong to pressed plants I gathered near my home when the SD Natural History Museum started its program to fill its herbarium with recent samples gathered by local residents. I could share that with folks who don't gather from the wild if anyone is interested. > > From brown.mark@wanadoo.fr Tue Jan 20 02:43:26 2009 Message-Id: <4874805.13320.1232437404741.JavaMail.www@wwinf1c23> From: Mark BROWN Subject: Plant exchange options Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2009 08:43:24 +0100 (CET) I would gladly take on the french version for you. > Message du 19/01/09 23:22 > De : "Laura & Dave" > A : "Pacific Bulb Society" > Copie à : > Objet : Re: [pbs] Plant exchange options > > > > An idea I've had that would help greatly is if there were > instructions/conditions in as many languages as possible. The > appropriate translated document could be sent with orders and > all the rest of the documentation. It would be great if this > was available on the APHIS website, but a bit much to expect > considering their already strapped budget. Perhaps we as a > group could take on the project I'm sure there are many > languages represented here, and enough people to proofread the > translations. Whether we would/could make the translated > documents available, or give them to the government to post is > an issue to be resolved. I know that it would help to be able > to send instructions that are understood at the exporters' end, > as I've had Jim's experience myself. I speak enough Spanish to > travel and converse, but I have some difficulty with more > technical and legal documents. I'm sure it is the same for many > people who "speak" English. Heck, I have trouble with legal > documents in English, even as a native speaker! > > > > Dave Brastow - Tumwater, Washington -usa- > > > > > _______________________________________________ > pbs mailing list > pbs@lists.ibiblio.org > http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php > http://pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki > > From email@ruthbierhoff.com Tue Jan 20 04:16:43 2009 Message-Id: <7F096DEE79E84EE0BE910BD99BEEA69B@bierhoffcjj14d> From: "Ruth Bierhoff" Subject: Membership renewal Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2009 04:16:38 -0500 Thanks, Dell. Ruth ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dell Sherk" To: "'Pacific Bulb Society'" Sent: Monday, January 19, 2009 1:58 PM Subject: Re: [pbs] Membership renewal > Dear Ruth, > > According to my records, you are paid up until 1/10 > > Dell > > -----Original Message----- > From: pbs-bounces@lists.ibiblio.org [mailto:pbs-bounces@lists.ibiblio.org] > On Behalf Of Ruth Bierhoff > Sent: Monday, January 19, 2009 12:52 PM > To: Pacific Bulb Society > Subject: Re: [pbs] Membership renewal > > Hi Dell, > To the best of my knowledge my membership is good to Jan 1/2010. I became > a > new member in October 2008. If I need to renew anyway, please let me know. > Thanks, > Ruth Bierhoff > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Dell Sherk" > To: "'Adam Fikso'" ; "Annalee" > ; "Cathy Craig" ; > ; "Douglas Westfall" ; "General PBS > forum" ; "John Lonsdale" ; > "'Macfarlane'" ; "'Mark'" ; > "'Mark Wilcox'" ; "'Pat Colville'" > ; "The Masterson Family" > > Sent: Sunday, January 18, 2009 3:00 PM > Subject: [pbs] Membership renewal > > >> Hi All, >> >> It is a new year, and some of you still have not renewed your PBS >> membership >> by paying your dues for 2009. If you want to keep getting the treasures >> that >> the PBS BX has to offer, renew right away. Go to the website: >> www.pacificbulbsociety.org >> >> Best wishes, >> Dell >> >> Dell Sherk, PBS BX >> >> _______________________________________________ >> pbs mailing list >> pbs@lists.ibiblio.org >> http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php >> http://pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > pbs mailing list > pbs@lists.ibiblio.org > http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php > http://pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki > > _______________________________________________ > pbs mailing list > pbs@lists.ibiblio.org > http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php > http://pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki > > From email@ruthbierhoff.com Tue Jan 20 04:26:14 2009 Message-Id: <93E024BE6A194E7EA840BA0F336ECAAD@bierhoffcjj14d> From: "Ruth Bierhoff" Subject: Membership renewal Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2009 04:26:10 -0500 Thanks, Pat. Ruth ----- Original Message ----- From: "Pat Colville" To: "Pacific Bulb Society" Sent: Monday, January 19, 2009 3:18 PM Subject: Re: [pbs] Membership renewal Hello Ruth: Your membership is good until the end of this year. I will get the corrected records to Dell Pat Colville PBS Membership Director 1555 washburn R. Pasadena, CA 91105 Tel: 909- 349-2933 Fax 909- 427-0634 "THIS DOCUMENT IS INTENDED FOR THE USE OF THE PARTY TO WHOM IT IS ADDRESSED AND MAY CONTAIN INFORMATION THAT IS CONFIDENTIAL" If you are not the intended recipient and have received this document in error , please return it to the originator and ensure its destruction. Any dissemination or copying of this document and its attachments by any one other than the addressee is strictly prohibited. -----Original Message----- From: pbs-bounces@lists.ibiblio.org [mailto:pbs-bounces@lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf Of Ruth Bierhoff Sent: Monday, January 19, 2009 9:52 AM To: Pacific Bulb Society Subject: Re: [pbs] Membership renewal Hi Dell, To the best of my knowledge my membership is good to Jan 1/2010. I became a new member in October 2008. If I need to renew anyway, please let me know. Thanks, Ruth Bierhoff ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dell Sherk" To: "'Adam Fikso'" ; "Annalee" ; "Cathy Craig" ; ; "Douglas Westfall" ; "General PBS forum" ; "John Lonsdale" ; "'Macfarlane'" ; "'Mark'" ; "'Mark Wilcox'" ; "'Pat Colville'" ; "The Masterson Family" Sent: Sunday, January 18, 2009 3:00 PM Subject: [pbs] Membership renewal > Hi All, > > It is a new year, and some of you still have not renewed your PBS > membership > by paying your dues for 2009. If you want to keep getting the treasures > that > the PBS BX has to offer, renew right away. Go to the website: > www.pacificbulbsociety.org > > Best wishes, > Dell > > Dell Sherk, PBS BX > > _______________________________________________ > pbs mailing list > pbs@lists.ibiblio.org > http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php > http://pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki > > _______________________________________________ pbs mailing list pbs@lists.ibiblio.org http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php http://pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki _______________________________________________ pbs mailing list pbs@lists.ibiblio.org http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php http://pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki From ds429@comcast.net Tue Jan 20 07:20:02 2009 Message-Id: <001c01c97af9$70c7fdd0$5257f970$@net> From: "Dell Sherk" Subject: Plant exchanges Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2009 07:20:11 -0500 Dear Bill, Regardless of what your reasons are for participating in this forum, I appreciate your taking the time to explain and keep us up-to-date on the regulations. I hope too that you will pass on our feedback to the powers-that-be. Do stick with us! Best regards, Dell Dell Sherk, PBS BX -----Original Message----- From: pbs-bounces@lists.ibiblio.org [mailto:pbs-bounces@lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf Of WDA Sent: Monday, January 19, 2009 6:50 PM To: Pacific Bulb Society Subject: [pbs] Plant exchanges Sorry If I ruffled feathers. I'm not accusing anyone of doing anything wrong. I just thought it helpful to be educated in what the restrictions are and how to work within systems. If my presence within this forum is unwelcome I'll keep my fingers silent. Just trying to help. Perhaps I'll find another forum to participate with. Take care folks. _______________________________________________ pbs mailing list pbs@lists.ibiblio.org http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php http://pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki From jimmckenney@jimmckenney.com Tue Jan 20 09:26:37 2009 Message-Id: <000601c97b0b$9e738f80$2f01a8c0@Library> From: "Jim McKenney" Subject: Plant exchanges Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2009 09:30:17 -0500 No ruffled feathers here, Bill. I have always appreciated your pragmatic, make-the-system-work-for-you approach in addressing these issues. I appreciate and look forward to your participation. And if I sometimes don't like the message, too bad: I'm not one to kill the messenger! And you're so right: it is helpful to be educated in what the restrictions are and how to work within systems. Jim McKenney From jimmckenney@jimmckenney.com Tue Jan 20 11:10:23 2009 Message-Id: <000701c97b1a$1d5314c0$2f01a8c0@Library> From: "Jim McKenney" Subject: protected cold frame Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2009 11:14:03 -0500 Kathleen, the way you asked your question suggests that you will perhaps be disappointed with my answer. As far as I’m concerned, the things you ask about (construction details) probably have little to do with the success I’ve experienced so far. The frame itself is set into the ground only a couple of inches; the glazing is a discarded storm door which is so heavy that only very strong wind is a consideration; the floor (ground) of the frame is perhaps six or so inched below the glazing. The base is the local soil (into which some of the cold frame residents are planted). I do not use shade cloth. This touches on the one big “if” concerning cold frame management: cold frames are like dogs, they REQUIRE attention at least twice a day, sometimes even more frequently. They must be opened before the sun strikes them and closed on all nights when the temperature falls below freezing. They don’t necessarily conform to the typical work schedule – they’re the retired person’s play thing. I would say that the single most important consideration is the site chosen. My protected cold frame is right against the house wall, under the roof overhang and has a SSW exposure. The frame thus has the advantages of heat seeping form the building and the heat provided by sunlight, heat provided both to the frame itself and to the brick surface of the building. It’s the warmest, coziest place in the garden. The two outdoor palms I grow grow right around the corner with a clump of Aspidistra. The frame itself is ridiculously simple: four pieces of 2x6 lumber nailed together into a 3’ x 6’ rectangle. A discarded glass sliding door serves as the light. There is no insulation other than the double ply tarp I throw over the whole affair on particularly cold nights. I don’t bank the sides with dirt or bales of straw. If all of this strikes you as slapdash and improvised, that in fact is how it all got started. I had ordered a bundle of Jane McGary’s surplus bulbs in 2006 with the idea that I would build a new bulb bed in the back garden for them. It didn’t happen. As an interim measure, I had already potted up the bulbs – I just needed a place to get them through the winter. As I was heeling them in against the house wall, the idea of an impromptu cold frame hit. So I did it and have not looked back since. You can see it here: http://www.jimmckenney.com/a_protected_cold_frame.htm The main point I would like to make is this: if you have been thinking about building or buying a cold frame, but have hesitated because of the cost and bother, don’t be put off by those considerations. My cold frame was built for less than $15 – yes, it would have cost a lot more if I had to purchase the storm door used for the light, but anyone else can improvise. If you can nail two boards together, you have the requisite skills. It’s not beautiful, but it was not built to be an eye catching attraction. It’s more or less hidden behind some fine old boxwood, but even in plain view it’s not obtrusive. To repeat: the single most important consideration is the site. I have other cold frames out in the open garden: a tender plant would probably not stand a chance in those during the winter. I use these primarily for those bulbs which are cold hardy but require careful watering. Kathleen, you don’t say where you garden. Your local conditions might not provide the sort of advantages I have here. I’m in USDA zone 7 where, in recent years, we’ve been having zone 8 winters for the most part. If we go back to having real zone 7 winters, it might turn out that this cold frame will require much more careful management. But for now there are times when it seems almost too good to be true. For instance, in 2006 there were about 240 taxa growing in that small frame during the winter. Many of those were plants which would not have done well in the house under lights (too warm), and were not sufficiently cold hardy to survive in the open garden. Jim McKenney jimmckenney@jimmckenney.com Montgomery County, Maryland, USA, 39.03871º North, 77.09829º West, USDA zone 7 My Virtual Maryland Garden http://www.jimmckenney.com BLOG! http://mcwort.blogspot.com/ Webmaster Potomac Valley Chapter, NARGS Editor PVC Bulletin http://www.pvcnargs.org Webmaster Potomac Lily Society http://www.potomaclilysociety.org From jimmckenney@jimmckenney.com Tue Jan 20 11:15:44 2009 Message-Id: <000d01c97b1a$e135b7d0$2f01a8c0@Library> From: "Jim McKenney" Subject: protected cold frame Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2009 11:19:31 -0500 Oops! The lumber used was 2" x 10" , not 2" x 6" . Jim McKenney From janemcgary@earthlink.net Tue Jan 20 13:28:42 2009 Message-Id: From: Jane McGary Subject: the protected cold frame Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2009 10:28:32 -0800 Jim McKenney's description of his "protected cold frame" is a little different from what I do -- he covers it with a tarp outside the lights (the plastic or glass), but I put sheets of microfoam insulation directly on the plants before shutting down the lights. However, both strategies seem to have brought our marginally hardy bulbs through recent below-average temperatures. My low here was only 14 F (minus 10 C), but the temperature did not rise above the freezing point for about ten days. I pulled the foam off as soon as the day temperature began to rise, although this entailed working in snow over knee height. Only a few plants seem to have lost their foliage, and I think they may survive, though set back. Narcissus cantabricus and romieuxii varieties are continuing to flower well despite having been buried in bud or even opening their flowers, and deprived of much light for 2 weeks because of the foam and the snow on the lights. (I think some light gets through the microfoam sheets, which are white and very thin.) Jane McGary Northwestern Oregon, USA From janemcgary@earthlink.net Tue Jan 20 13:31:14 2009 Message-Id: From: Jane McGary Subject: protected cold frame Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2009 10:31:07 -0800 For those who are asking for more details about using bulb frames, I wrote an article on the subject for the NARGS Rock Garden Quarterly some years ago. Would people like to have it reprinted in the PBS newsletter? Jane McGary At 02:22 PM 1/19/2009, you wrote: >OK, Jim, I'll bite. Tell us more about this protected cold frame. >What is it made of, how deeply do you set it in the ground, what is >the glazing? Internal height? Do you use insulation around the >outside? Gravel base? Shade cloth in summer? How do you anchor the >glazing in high winds, etc? I ran a commercial greenhouse for years, >and so have held off going anywhere close to that direction for the >past decade in my own garden, but having given in to the dark side >and admitting that I adore geophyte (by joining PBS), I am now >looking at how to grow those species that can't take zone 8 conditions. >Details, please. >Kathleen >_______________________________________________ >pbs mailing list >pbs@lists.ibiblio.org >http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php >http://pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki From meenglis@meenglis.cts.com Tue Jan 20 13:48:42 2009 Message-Id: <20090120184841.C87E7577E@alexander.concentric.com> From: Marguerite English Subject: protected cold frame Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2009 10:48:41 -0800 (PST) The Bulb Garden will be happy to reprint anything you write, Jane. We also published a version of that article in one of our very first issues. If folks agree, we can surely get it into the summer issue, if not spring. It was very enjoyable. While I am writing, I would like to ask some of you to respond to a quick survey. Please send your response privately. When reading any of our recent articles, did you check out a website or purchase plants from the author. ---- Pacific Bulb Society wrote: > > For those who are asking for more details about using bulb frames, I > wrote an article on the subject for the NARGS Rock Garden Quarterly > some years ago. Would people like to have it reprinted in the PBS newsletter? > > Jane McGary > From adam14113@ameritech.net Tue Jan 20 14:41:43 2009 Message-Id: From: "Adam Fikso" Subject: pbs Digest, Vol 72, Issue 27 Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2009 13:40:28 -0600 Re the McKenny coldframe: It shouldn't be too difficult to rig a temperature-controlled thermostatic switch, motor and gears to to raise and lower it as needed. Then one could reduce checking to once a week, or occasionally. It might even be done for under $300 (guess).Considering the investment in bulbs and seedlkings already, there might be a reasonable risk/benefit ratio. ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Tuesday, January 20, 2009 3:26 AM Subject: pbs Digest, Vol 72, Issue 27 > Send pbs mailing list submissions to > pbs@lists.ibiblio.org > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > pbs-request@lists.ibiblio.org > > You can reach the person managing the list at > pbs-owner@lists.ibiblio.org > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > than "Re: Contents of pbs digest..." > > > List-Post:<mailto:pbs@lists.ibiblio.org> > List-Archive:<http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/pbslist> > > Today's Topics: > > 1. Re: Membership renewal (Pat Colville) > 2. Re: Plant exchange options (Justin Smith) > 3. membership payments (Arnold Trachtenberg) > 4. Re: membership payments (Theladygardens@aol.com) > 5. Re: membership payments (Arnold Trachtenberg) > 6. Re: Plant exchange options (Laura & Dave) > 7. protected cold frame (Kathleen Sayce) > 8. Re: Plant exchange options (Dennis Kramb) > 9. Re: Plant exchange options (Diane Whitehead) > 10. Plant exchanges (WDA) > 11. Re: Fw: Greentours San Diego Flora (Marguerite English) > 12. Re: Plant exchange options (Mark BROWN) > 13. Re: Membership renewal (Ruth Bierhoff) > 14. Re: Membership renewal (Ruth Bierhoff) > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Message: 1 > Date: Mon, 19 Jan 2009 12:18:37 -0800 > From: Pat Colville > Subject: Re: [pbs] Membership renewal > To: "Pacific Bulb Society" > Message-ID: > <30909A06CD1CB64EA29DF0A811DF70C001708BC3@mvhmail3.USA.hardie.win> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > > Hello Ruth: Your membership is good until the end of this year. I will > get the corrected records to Dell > > Pat Colville > PBS Membership Director > 1555 washburn R. > Pasadena, CA 91105 > Tel: 909- 349-2933 > Fax 909- 427-0634 > ? > "THIS DOCUMENT IS INTENDED FOR THE USE OF THE PARTY TO WHOM IT IS > ADDRESSED AND MAY CONTAIN INFORMATION THAT IS CONFIDENTIAL"? If you are > not the intended recipient and have received this document in error , > please return it to the originator and ensure its destruction. Any > dissemination or copying of this document and its attachments by any one > other than the addressee is strictly prohibited. > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: pbs-bounces@lists.ibiblio.org [mailto:pbs-bounces@lists.ibiblio.org] > On Behalf Of Ruth Bierhoff > Sent: Monday, January 19, 2009 9:52 AM > To: Pacific Bulb Society > Subject: Re: [pbs] Membership renewal > > Hi Dell, > To the best of my knowledge my membership is good to Jan 1/2010. I became > a > new member in October 2008. If I need to renew anyway, please let me know. > Thanks, > Ruth Bierhoff > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Dell Sherk" > To: "'Adam Fikso'" ; "Annalee" > ; "Cathy Craig" ; > ; "Douglas Westfall" ; "General PBS > forum" ; "John Lonsdale" ; > "'Macfarlane'" ; "'Mark'" ; > "'Mark Wilcox'" ; "'Pat Colville'" > ; "The Masterson Family" > > Sent: Sunday, January 18, 2009 3:00 PM > Subject: [pbs] Membership renewal > > >> Hi All, >> >> It is a new year, and some of you still have not renewed your PBS >> membership >> by paying your dues for 2009. If you want to keep getting the treasures >> that >> the PBS BX has to offer, renew right away. Go to the website: >> www.pacificbulbsociety.org >> >> Best wishes, >> Dell >> >> Dell Sherk, PBS BX >> >> _______________________________________________ >> pbs mailing list >> pbs@lists.ibiblio.org >> http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php >> http://pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > pbs mailing list > pbs@lists.ibiblio.org > http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php > http://pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 2 > Date: Mon, 19 Jan 2009 14:20:42 -0600 > From: Justin Smith > Subject: Re: [pbs] Plant exchange options > To: > Message-ID: > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" > > > Recently they have been accessing fines and penalties to the importer for > the actions of> the exporter. Under the current legal system the > government has been winning> cases of the importer not preparing the > exporter sufficiently or ensuring> that the appropriate documents are in > the shipment and the rewarding the> importer with stiff financial > penalties. ?> > > > Hi all, > > Seems like all you have to do is send a email to anyone you buy seed from. > Enclose a link to the USDA website and state something like. > > "You must follow all rules and regulations stated in the website I have > provided a link to." > > > I think that would just about be the best you could do to CYA. > > or > > Make it so each email you send has a EULA. > > Before reading email you must agree to follow all rules and regulations > set forth by the USDA. LOL > > Justin > Woodville, TX 8b/9a > _________________________________________________________________ > Windows Live?: Keep your life in sync. > http://windowslive.com/explore?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_t1_allup_explore_012009 > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 3 > Date: Mon, 19 Jan 2009 17:03:18 -0500 > From: Arnold Trachtenberg > Subject: [pbs] membership payments > To: Pacific Bulb Society > Message-ID: <4974F8A6.7060904@nj.rr.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed > > There has been a flurry of activity following Dell's note on 2009 dues. > > I would ask that if you pay via PayPal indicate in the 'comment section' > that this is for 2009 dues. > > If you pay via check write in the memo section '2009 dues'. > > Thank you for supporting the Pacific Bulb Society. > > Arnold Trachtenberg > Treasurer PBS > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 4 > Date: Mon, 19 Jan 2009 17:10:32 EST > From: Theladygardens@aol.com > Subject: Re: [pbs] membership payments > To: pbs@lists.ibiblio.org > Message-ID: > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" > > Just to let you know Arnold, there was no comment section when I paid. I > looked for it, that's why I sent you an e-mail explaining. > I thought there was always a comment section but wasn't this time. > Carolyn > **************Inauguration '09: Get complete coverage from the nation's > capital.(http://www.aol.com?ncid=emlcntaolcom00000027) > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 5 > Date: Mon, 19 Jan 2009 17:18:42 -0500 > From: Arnold Trachtenberg > Subject: Re: [pbs] membership payments > To: Pacific Bulb Society > Message-ID: <4974FC42.9040104@nj.rr.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed > > Carolyn: > > Thanks for the note. I'll have a look. I never use Paypal, my email > address is linked to the PBS account. > > Arnold > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 6 > Date: Mon, 19 Jan 2009 14:22:15 -0800 > From: Laura & Dave > Subject: Re: [pbs] Plant exchange options > To: Pacific Bulb Society > Message-ID: <4974FD17.3010509@olywa.net> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed > > > An idea I've had that would help greatly is if there were > instructions/conditions in as many languages as possible. The > appropriate translated document could be sent with orders and > all the rest of the documentation. It would be great if this > was available on the APHIS website, but a bit much to expect > considering their already strapped budget. Perhaps we as a > group could take on the project I'm sure there are many > languages represented here, and enough people to proofread the > translations. Whether we would/could make the translated > documents available, or give them to the government to post is > an issue to be resolved. I know that it would help to be able > to send instructions that are understood at the exporters' end, > as I've had Jim's experience myself. I speak enough Spanish to > travel and converse, but I have some difficulty with more > technical and legal documents. I'm sure it is the same for many > people who "speak" English. Heck, I have trouble with legal > documents in English, even as a native speaker! > > > > Dave Brastow - Tumwater, Washington -usa- > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 7 > Date: Mon, 19 Jan 2009 14:22:10 -0800 > From: Kathleen Sayce > Subject: [pbs] protected cold frame > To: pbs@lists.ibiblio.org > Message-ID: > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed > > OK, Jim, I'll bite. Tell us more about this protected cold frame. > What is it made of, how deeply do you set it in the ground, what is > the glazing? Internal height? Do you use insulation around the > outside? Gravel base? Shade cloth in summer? How do you anchor the > glazing in high winds, etc? I ran a commercial greenhouse for years, > and so have held off going anywhere close to that direction for the > past decade in my own garden, but having given in to the dark side > and admitting that I adore geophyte (by joining PBS), I am now > looking at how to grow those species that can't take zone 8 conditions. > Details, please. > Kathleen > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 8 > Date: Mon, 19 Jan 2009 18:14:50 -0500 > From: Dennis Kramb > Subject: Re: [pbs] Plant exchange options > To: Pacific Bulb Society > Message-ID: <4975096A.6070700@badbear.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed > > Tim Harvey wrote: >> I can't help but wonder why you're a member of this list ... > Agreed!!! The reference to our annual plant, seed and bulb exchange > was most amusing. :-) > > Dennis in Cincinnati, accused smuggler & threat to homeland security... > apparently? lol. (checking the calendar to make sure it's not April 1.) > > >> > Date: Mon, 19 Jan 2009 08:25:35 -0500> From: aley_wd@mac.com> To: >> > pbs@lists.ibiblio.org> Subject: [pbs] Plant exchange options> > Hi >> > Peter,> As a "lurker" to the PBS web dialog,I always find the >> > conversation threads about plant exchanges interesting and when the >> > annual plant, seed and bulb exchange starts to go full swing I think >> > that it's important to remind the group about > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 9 > Date: Mon, 19 Jan 2009 15:29:56 -0800 > From: Diane Whitehead > Subject: Re: [pbs] Plant exchange options > To: Pacific Bulb Society > Message-ID: <58095D09-4E09-4B53-A43B-605804529F61@islandnet.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes > > On 19-Jan-09, at 11:38 AM, Jim McKenney wrote: >> >> Bill, I hope we can count on you to keep before the rule makers the >> complete >> lack of control we as individual prospective importers have over the >> actions >> of the senders. > > It's not just stuff coming in to the U.S., and it is not just non- > English speakers. > > I could not get a U.S. inspector to write one sentence on my phyto > that I knew was essential. He couldn't see it in the rule book he was > looking in, so refused. When I got to the Canadian border, our > inspector phoned him to fax a new phyto with that sentence added. I > was the one who had to hang around waiting for the new paperwork. At > least I didn't get charged another $23 for the second phyto. > > Diane Whitehead > Victoria, B.C., Canada > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 10 > Date: Mon, 19 Jan 2009 18:49:44 -0500 > From: WDA > Subject: [pbs] Plant exchanges > To: Pacific Bulb Society > Message-ID: <61819883451772744765254076209836199117-Webmail@me.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 > > Sorry If I ruffled feathers. I'm not accusing anyone of doing anything > wrong. I just thought it helpful to be educated in what the restrictions > are and how to work within systems. > If my presence within this forum is unwelcome I'll keep my fingers silent. > Just trying to help. Perhaps I'll find another forum to participate with. > Take care folks. > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 11 > Date: Mon, 19 Jan 2009 18:05:52 -0800 > From: Marguerite English > Subject: Re: [pbs] Fw: Greentours San Diego Flora > To: Pacific Bulb Society > Message-ID: <49753180.6000504@meenglis.cts.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed > > Sorry all. I wanted to correct my error, but have been having computer > problems. Cuyamaca Park ends at about 3500 feet; then it is Cleveland > Natl forest that drops down into the community of Alpine, Ca. So > sorry for the error. > > All the Manzanitas shrubs popped into bloom last week, so the first > blooms are showing. Yea! > > Marguerite English wrote: >> >> Actually, Cuyamaca state park drops all the way down to Alpine, Ca., >> which is about 3000 ft alt. I live at 3700 ft, right under Mt. >> Cuyamaca on the southwest slope. We had snow on the peak through >> Christmas week; but that has now melted. We often get a few days of snow >> at this altitude during the 1st 3 months of the year, with a lot of rain >> and wind. It is definitely winter here at least through Feb. First few >> early bloom begins in late Feb. Apr-May have the best display. We have >> even had occasional snow on Easter. >> >> I do know the native herbaceous plants on this side of Cuyamaca. Most >> of my lists belong to pressed plants I gathered near my home when the SD >> Natural History Museum started its program to fill its herbarium with >> recent samples gathered by local residents. I could share that with folks >> who don't gather from the wild if anyone is interested. >> >> > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 12 > Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2009 08:43:24 +0100 (CET) > From: Mark BROWN > Subject: Re: [pbs] Plant exchange options > To: Pacific Bulb Society > Message-ID: <4874805.13320.1232437404741.JavaMail.www@wwinf1c23> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 > > > I would gladly take on the french version for you. > > > > >> Message du 19/01/09 23:22 >> De : "Laura & Dave" >> A : "Pacific Bulb Society" >> Copie ? : >> Objet : Re: [pbs] Plant exchange options >> >> >> >> An idea I've had that would help greatly is if there were >> instructions/conditions in as many languages as possible. The >> appropriate translated document could be sent with orders and >> all the rest of the documentation. It would be great if this >> was available on the APHIS website, but a bit much to expect >> considering their already strapped budget. Perhaps we as a >> group could take on the project I'm sure there are many >> languages represented here, and enough people to proofread the >> translations. Whether we would/could make the translated >> documents available, or give them to the government to post is >> an issue to be resolved. I know that it would help to be able >> to send instructions that are understood at the exporters' end, >> as I've had Jim's experience myself. I speak enough Spanish to >> travel and converse, but I have some difficulty with more >> technical and legal documents. I'm sure it is the same for many >> people who "speak" English. Heck, I have trouble with legal >> documents in English, even as a native speaker! >> >> >> >> Dave Brastow - Tumwater, Washington -usa- >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> pbs mailing list >> pbs@lists.ibiblio.org >> http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php >> http://pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki >> >> > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 13 > Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2009 04:16:38 -0500 > From: "Ruth Bierhoff" > Subject: Re: [pbs] Membership renewal > To: "Pacific Bulb Society" > Message-ID: <7F096DEE79E84EE0BE910BD99BEEA69B@bierhoffcjj14d> > Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; > reply-type=original > > Thanks, Dell. Ruth > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Dell Sherk" > To: "'Pacific Bulb Society'" > Sent: Monday, January 19, 2009 1:58 PM > Subject: Re: [pbs] Membership renewal > > >> Dear Ruth, >> >> According to my records, you are paid up until 1/10 >> >> Dell >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: pbs-bounces@lists.ibiblio.org >> [mailto:pbs-bounces@lists.ibiblio.org] >> On Behalf Of Ruth Bierhoff >> Sent: Monday, January 19, 2009 12:52 PM >> To: Pacific Bulb Society >> Subject: Re: [pbs] Membership renewal >> >> Hi Dell, >> To the best of my knowledge my membership is good to Jan 1/2010. I became >> a >> new member in October 2008. If I need to renew anyway, please let me >> know. >> Thanks, >> Ruth Bierhoff >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Dell Sherk" >> To: "'Adam Fikso'" ; "Annalee" >> ; "Cathy Craig" ; >> ; "Douglas Westfall" ; "General PBS >> forum" ; "John Lonsdale" ; >> "'Macfarlane'" ; "'Mark'" ; >> "'Mark Wilcox'" ; "'Pat Colville'" >> ; "The Masterson Family" >> >> Sent: Sunday, January 18, 2009 3:00 PM >> Subject: [pbs] Membership renewal >> >> >>> Hi All, >>> >>> It is a new year, and some of you still have not renewed your PBS >>> membership >>> by paying your dues for 2009. If you want to keep getting the treasures >>> that >>> the PBS BX has to offer, renew right away. Go to the website: >>> www.pacificbulbsociety.org >>> >>> Best wishes, >>> Dell >>> >>> Dell Sherk, PBS BX >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> pbs mailing list >>> pbs@lists.ibiblio.org >>> http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php >>> http://pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki >>> >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> pbs mailing list >> pbs@lists.ibiblio.org >> http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php >> http://pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki >> >> _______________________________________________ >> pbs mailing list >> pbs@lists.ibiblio.org >> http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php >> http://pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki >> >> > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 14 > Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2009 04:26:10 -0500 > From: "Ruth Bierhoff" > Subject: Re: [pbs] Membership renewal > To: "Pacific Bulb Society" > Message-ID: <93E024BE6A194E7EA840BA0F336ECAAD@bierhoffcjj14d> > Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; > reply-type=original > > Thanks, Pat. Ruth > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Pat Colville" > To: "Pacific Bulb Society" > Sent: Monday, January 19, 2009 3:18 PM > Subject: Re: [pbs] Membership renewal > > > Hello Ruth: Your membership is good until the end of this year. I will > get the corrected records to Dell > > Pat Colville > PBS Membership Director > 1555 washburn R. > Pasadena, CA 91105 > Tel: 909- 349-2933 > Fax 909- 427-0634 > > "THIS DOCUMENT IS INTENDED FOR THE USE OF THE PARTY TO WHOM IT IS > ADDRESSED > AND MAY CONTAIN INFORMATION THAT IS CONFIDENTIAL" If you are not the > intended recipient and have received this document in error , please > return > it to the originator and ensure its destruction. Any dissemination or > copying of this document and its attachments by any one other than the > addressee is strictly prohibited. > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: pbs-bounces@lists.ibiblio.org [mailto:pbs-bounces@lists.ibiblio.org] > On Behalf Of Ruth Bierhoff > Sent: Monday, January 19, 2009 9:52 AM > To: Pacific Bulb Society > Subject: Re: [pbs] Membership renewal > > Hi Dell, > To the best of my knowledge my membership is good to Jan 1/2010. I became > a > new member in October 2008. If I need to renew anyway, please let me know. > Thanks, > Ruth Bierhoff > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Dell Sherk" > To: "'Adam Fikso'" ; "Annalee" > ; "Cathy Craig" ; > ; "Douglas Westfall" ; "General PBS > forum" ; "John Lonsdale" ; > "'Macfarlane'" ; "'Mark'" ; > "'Mark Wilcox'" ; "'Pat Colville'" > ; "The Masterson Family" > > Sent: Sunday, January 18, 2009 3:00 PM > Subject: [pbs] Membership renewal > > >> Hi All, >> >> It is a new year, and some of you still have not renewed your PBS >> membership >> by paying your dues for 2009. If you want to keep getting the treasures >> that >> the PBS BX has to offer, renew right away. Go to the website: >> www.pacificbulbsociety.org >> >> Best wishes, >> Dell >> >> Dell Sherk, PBS BX >> >> _______________________________________________ >> pbs mailing list >> pbs@lists.ibiblio.org >> http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php >> http://pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > pbs mailing list > pbs@lists.ibiblio.org > http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php > http://pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki > > > _______________________________________________ > pbs mailing list > pbs@lists.ibiblio.org > http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php > http://pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki > > > > > ------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > pbs mailing list > pbs@lists.ibiblio.org > http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php > > > End of pbs Digest, Vol 72, Issue 27 > *********************************** From daverpoole@hotmail.com Tue Jan 20 15:42:43 2009 Message-Id: From: Dave Poole Subject: evergreen chives? Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2009 20:42:41 +0000 I think the degree of 'evergreen-ness' is very much dependent upon local climate. In Kent (UK) it may stay evergreen and stop growing, but here in Devon (UK) it stays evergreen and continues growing. When I grew Chives unprotected further north, they defoliated after several very hard frosts and remained dormant until spring. The trick was to grow them under cloches as previously suggested or even pot up clumps and keep then in a frost-free greenhouse. Dave Poole Torquay, Devon, UK Zone 9b (winter) Nothing like that in summer! _________________________________________________________________ Imagine a life without walls.  See the possibilities http://clk.atdmt.com/UKM/go/122465943/direct/01/ From barkingdogwoods@gmail.com Tue Jan 20 17:48:56 2009 Message-Id: <006a01c97b51$3b2d9420$d7dc7a46@S0027128273> From: "Lin" Subject: pbs Digest, Vol 72, Issue 27 Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2009 16:48:35 -0600 I think you can buy one at greenhouse supply companies for a lot less than that - here's one at Charley's for < $50 (plus shipping etc.) http://www.charleysgreenhouse.com/index.cfm?page=_productdetails&productid=3 515&s=opener&cid1=1010&cid2=315&cid3=-99 Lin in Texas -----Original Message----- From: pbs-bounces@lists.ibiblio.org [mailto:pbs-bounces@lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf Of Adam Fikso Sent: Tuesday, January 20, 2009 1:40 PM To: pbs@lists.ibiblio.org Subject: Re: [pbs] pbs Digest, Vol 72, Issue 27 Re the McKenny coldframe: It shouldn't be too difficult to rig a temperature-controlled thermostatic switch, motor and gears to to raise and lower it as needed. Then one could reduce checking to once a week, or occasionally. It might even be done for under $300 (guess).Considering the investment in bulbs and seedlkings already, there might be a reasonable risk/benefit ratio. ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Tuesday, January 20, 2009 3:26 AM Subject: pbs Digest, Vol 72, Issue 27 > Send pbs mailing list submissions to > pbs@lists.ibiblio.org > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > pbs-request@lists.ibiblio.org > > You can reach the person managing the list at > pbs-owner@lists.ibiblio.org > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > than "Re: Contents of pbs digest..." > > > List-Post:<mailto:pbs@lists.ibiblio.org> > List-Archive:<http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/pbslist> > > Today's Topics: > > 1. Re: Membership renewal (Pat Colville) > 2. Re: Plant exchange options (Justin Smith) > 3. membership payments (Arnold Trachtenberg) > 4. Re: membership payments (Theladygardens@aol.com) > 5. Re: membership payments (Arnold Trachtenberg) > 6. Re: Plant exchange options (Laura & Dave) > 7. protected cold frame (Kathleen Sayce) > 8. Re: Plant exchange options (Dennis Kramb) > 9. Re: Plant exchange options (Diane Whitehead) > 10. Plant exchanges (WDA) > 11. Re: Fw: Greentours San Diego Flora (Marguerite English) > 12. Re: Plant exchange options (Mark BROWN) > 13. Re: Membership renewal (Ruth Bierhoff) > 14. Re: Membership renewal (Ruth Bierhoff) > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Message: 1 > Date: Mon, 19 Jan 2009 12:18:37 -0800 > From: Pat Colville > Subject: Re: [pbs] Membership renewal > To: "Pacific Bulb Society" > Message-ID: > <30909A06CD1CB64EA29DF0A811DF70C001708BC3@mvhmail3.USA.hardie.win> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > > Hello Ruth: Your membership is good until the end of this year. I will > get the corrected records to Dell > > Pat Colville > PBS Membership Director > 1555 washburn R. > Pasadena, CA 91105 > Tel: 909- 349-2933 > Fax 909- 427-0634 > ? > "THIS DOCUMENT IS INTENDED FOR THE USE OF THE PARTY TO WHOM IT IS > ADDRESSED AND MAY CONTAIN INFORMATION THAT IS CONFIDENTIAL"? If you are > not the intended recipient and have received this document in error , > please return it to the originator and ensure its destruction. Any > dissemination or copying of this document and its attachments by any one > other than the addressee is strictly prohibited. > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: pbs-bounces@lists.ibiblio.org [mailto:pbs-bounces@lists.ibiblio.org] > On Behalf Of Ruth Bierhoff > Sent: Monday, January 19, 2009 9:52 AM > To: Pacific Bulb Society > Subject: Re: [pbs] Membership renewal > > Hi Dell, > To the best of my knowledge my membership is good to Jan 1/2010. I became > a > new member in October 2008. If I need to renew anyway, please let me know. > Thanks, > Ruth Bierhoff > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Dell Sherk" > To: "'Adam Fikso'" ; "Annalee" > ; "Cathy Craig" ; > ; "Douglas Westfall" ; "General PBS > forum" ; "John Lonsdale" ; > "'Macfarlane'" ; "'Mark'" ; > "'Mark Wilcox'" ; "'Pat Colville'" > ; "The Masterson Family" > > Sent: Sunday, January 18, 2009 3:00 PM > Subject: [pbs] Membership renewal > > >> Hi All, >> >> It is a new year, and some of you still have not renewed your PBS >> membership >> by paying your dues for 2009. If you want to keep getting the treasures >> that >> the PBS BX has to offer, renew right away. Go to the website: >> www.pacificbulbsociety.org >> >> Best wishes, >> Dell >> >> Dell Sherk, PBS BX >> >> _______________________________________________ >> pbs mailing list >> pbs@lists.ibiblio.org >> http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php >> http://pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > pbs mailing list > pbs@lists.ibiblio.org > http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php > http://pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 2 > Date: Mon, 19 Jan 2009 14:20:42 -0600 > From: Justin Smith > Subject: Re: [pbs] Plant exchange options > To: > Message-ID: > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" > > > Recently they have been accessing fines and penalties to the importer for > the actions of> the exporter. Under the current legal system the > government has been winning> cases of the importer not preparing the > exporter sufficiently or ensuring> that the appropriate documents are in > the shipment and the rewarding the> importer with stiff financial > penalties. ?> > > > Hi all, > > Seems like all you have to do is send a email to anyone you buy seed from. > Enclose a link to the USDA website and state something like. > > "You must follow all rules and regulations stated in the website I have > provided a link to." > > > I think that would just about be the best you could do to CYA. > > or > > Make it so each email you send has a EULA. > > Before reading email you must agree to follow all rules and regulations > set forth by the USDA. LOL > > Justin > Woodville, TX 8b/9a > _________________________________________________________________ > Windows Live?: Keep your life in sync. > http://windowslive.com/explore?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_t1_allup_explore_012009 > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 3 > Date: Mon, 19 Jan 2009 17:03:18 -0500 > From: Arnold Trachtenberg > Subject: [pbs] membership payments > To: Pacific Bulb Society > Message-ID: <4974F8A6.7060904@nj.rr.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed > > There has been a flurry of activity following Dell's note on 2009 dues. > > I would ask that if you pay via PayPal indicate in the 'comment section' > that this is for 2009 dues. > > If you pay via check write in the memo section '2009 dues'. > > Thank you for supporting the Pacific Bulb Society. > > Arnold Trachtenberg > Treasurer PBS > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 4 > Date: Mon, 19 Jan 2009 17:10:32 EST > From: Theladygardens@aol.com > Subject: Re: [pbs] membership payments > To: pbs@lists.ibiblio.org > Message-ID: > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" > > Just to let you know Arnold, there was no comment section when I paid. I > looked for it, that's why I sent you an e-mail explaining. > I thought there was always a comment section but wasn't this time. > Carolyn > **************Inauguration '09: Get complete coverage from the nation's > capital.(http://www.aol.com?ncid=emlcntaolcom00000027) > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 5 > Date: Mon, 19 Jan 2009 17:18:42 -0500 > From: Arnold Trachtenberg > Subject: Re: [pbs] membership payments > To: Pacific Bulb Society > Message-ID: <4974FC42.9040104@nj.rr.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed > > Carolyn: > > Thanks for the note. I'll have a look. I never use Paypal, my email > address is linked to the PBS account. > > Arnold > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 6 > Date: Mon, 19 Jan 2009 14:22:15 -0800 > From: Laura & Dave > Subject: Re: [pbs] Plant exchange options > To: Pacific Bulb Society > Message-ID: <4974FD17.3010509@olywa.net> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed > > > An idea I've had that would help greatly is if there were > instructions/conditions in as many languages as possible. The > appropriate translated document could be sent with orders and > all the rest of the documentation. It would be great if this > was available on the APHIS website, but a bit much to expect > considering their already strapped budget. Perhaps we as a > group could take on the project I'm sure there are many > languages represented here, and enough people to proofread the > translations. Whether we would/could make the translated > documents available, or give them to the government to post is > an issue to be resolved. I know that it would help to be able > to send instructions that are understood at the exporters' end, > as I've had Jim's experience myself. I speak enough Spanish to > travel and converse, but I have some difficulty with more > technical and legal documents. I'm sure it is the same for many > people who "speak" English. Heck, I have trouble with legal > documents in English, even as a native speaker! > > > > Dave Brastow - Tumwater, Washington -usa- > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 7 > Date: Mon, 19 Jan 2009 14:22:10 -0800 > From: Kathleen Sayce > Subject: [pbs] protected cold frame > To: pbs@lists.ibiblio.org > Message-ID: > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed > > OK, Jim, I'll bite. Tell us more about this protected cold frame. > What is it made of, how deeply do you set it in the ground, what is > the glazing? Internal height? Do you use insulation around the > outside? Gravel base? Shade cloth in summer? How do you anchor the > glazing in high winds, etc? I ran a commercial greenhouse for years, > and so have held off going anywhere close to that direction for the > past decade in my own garden, but having given in to the dark side > and admitting that I adore geophyte (by joining PBS), I am now > looking at how to grow those species that can't take zone 8 conditions. > Details, please. > Kathleen > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 8 > Date: Mon, 19 Jan 2009 18:14:50 -0500 > From: Dennis Kramb > Subject: Re: [pbs] Plant exchange options > To: Pacific Bulb Society > Message-ID: <4975096A.6070700@badbear.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed > > Tim Harvey wrote: >> I can't help but wonder why you're a member of this list ... > Agreed!!! The reference to our annual plant, seed and bulb exchange > was most amusing. :-) > > Dennis in Cincinnati, accused smuggler & threat to homeland security... > apparently? lol. (checking the calendar to make sure it's not April 1.) > > >> > Date: Mon, 19 Jan 2009 08:25:35 -0500> From: aley_wd@mac.com> To: >> > pbs@lists.ibiblio.org> Subject: [pbs] Plant exchange options> > Hi >> > Peter,> As a "lurker" to the PBS web dialog,I always find the >> > conversation threads about plant exchanges interesting and when the >> > annual plant, seed and bulb exchange starts to go full swing I think >> > that it's important to remind the group about > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 9 > Date: Mon, 19 Jan 2009 15:29:56 -0800 > From: Diane Whitehead > Subject: Re: [pbs] Plant exchange options > To: Pacific Bulb Society > Message-ID: <58095D09-4E09-4B53-A43B-605804529F61@islandnet.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes > > On 19-Jan-09, at 11:38 AM, Jim McKenney wrote: >> >> Bill, I hope we can count on you to keep before the rule makers the >> complete >> lack of control we as individual prospective importers have over the >> actions >> of the senders. > > It's not just stuff coming in to the U.S., and it is not just non- > English speakers. > > I could not get a U.S. inspector to write one sentence on my phyto > that I knew was essential. He couldn't see it in the rule book he was > looking in, so refused. When I got to the Canadian border, our > inspector phoned him to fax a new phyto with that sentence added. I > was the one who had to hang around waiting for the new paperwork. At > least I didn't get charged another $23 for the second phyto. > > Diane Whitehead > Victoria, B.C., Canada > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 10 > Date: Mon, 19 Jan 2009 18:49:44 -0500 > From: WDA > Subject: [pbs] Plant exchanges > To: Pacific Bulb Society > Message-ID: <61819883451772744765254076209836199117-Webmail@me.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 > > Sorry If I ruffled feathers. I'm not accusing anyone of doing anything > wrong. I just thought it helpful to be educated in what the restrictions > are and how to work within systems. > If my presence within this forum is unwelcome I'll keep my fingers silent. > Just trying to help. Perhaps I'll find another forum to participate with. > Take care folks. > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 11 > Date: Mon, 19 Jan 2009 18:05:52 -0800 > From: Marguerite English > Subject: Re: [pbs] Fw: Greentours San Diego Flora > To: Pacific Bulb Society > Message-ID: <49753180.6000504@meenglis.cts.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed > > Sorry all. I wanted to correct my error, but have been having computer > problems. Cuyamaca Park ends at about 3500 feet; then it is Cleveland > Natl forest that drops down into the community of Alpine, Ca. So > sorry for the error. > > All the Manzanitas shrubs popped into bloom last week, so the first > blooms are showing. Yea! > > Marguerite English wrote: >> >> Actually, Cuyamaca state park drops all the way down to Alpine, Ca., >> which is about 3000 ft alt. I live at 3700 ft, right under Mt. >> Cuyamaca on the southwest slope. We had snow on the peak through >> Christmas week; but that has now melted. We often get a few days of snow >> at this altitude during the 1st 3 months of the year, with a lot of rain >> and wind. It is definitely winter here at least through Feb. First few >> early bloom begins in late Feb. Apr-May have the best display. We have >> even had occasional snow on Easter. >> >> I do know the native herbaceous plants on this side of Cuyamaca. Most >> of my lists belong to pressed plants I gathered near my home when the SD >> Natural History Museum started its program to fill its herbarium with >> recent samples gathered by local residents. I could share that with folks >> who don't gather from the wild if anyone is interested. >> >> > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 12 > Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2009 08:43:24 +0100 (CET) > From: Mark BROWN > Subject: Re: [pbs] Plant exchange options > To: Pacific Bulb Society > Message-ID: <4874805.13320.1232437404741.JavaMail.www@wwinf1c23> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 > > > I would gladly take on the french version for you. > > > > >> Message du 19/01/09 23:22 >> De : "Laura & Dave" >> A : "Pacific Bulb Society" >> Copie ? : >> Objet : Re: [pbs] Plant exchange options >> >> >> >> An idea I've had that would help greatly is if there were >> instructions/conditions in as many languages as possible. The >> appropriate translated document could be sent with orders and >> all the rest of the documentation. It would be great if this >> was available on the APHIS website, but a bit much to expect >> considering their already strapped budget. Perhaps we as a >> group could take on the project I'm sure there are many >> languages represented here, and enough people to proofread the >> translations. Whether we would/could make the translated >> documents available, or give them to the government to post is >> an issue to be resolved. I know that it would help to be able >> to send instructions that are understood at the exporters' end, >> as I've had Jim's experience myself. I speak enough Spanish to >> travel and converse, but I have some difficulty with more >> technical and legal documents. I'm sure it is the same for many >> people who "speak" English. Heck, I have trouble with legal >> documents in English, even as a native speaker! >> >> >> >> Dave Brastow - Tumwater, Washington -usa- >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> pbs mailing list >> pbs@lists.ibiblio.org >> http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php >> http://pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki >> >> > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 13 > Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2009 04:16:38 -0500 > From: "Ruth Bierhoff" > Subject: Re: [pbs] Membership renewal > To: "Pacific Bulb Society" > Message-ID: <7F096DEE79E84EE0BE910BD99BEEA69B@bierhoffcjj14d> > Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; > reply-type=original > > Thanks, Dell. Ruth > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Dell Sherk" > To: "'Pacific Bulb Society'" > Sent: Monday, January 19, 2009 1:58 PM > Subject: Re: [pbs] Membership renewal > > >> Dear Ruth, >> >> According to my records, you are paid up until 1/10 >> >> Dell >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: pbs-bounces@lists.ibiblio.org >> [mailto:pbs-bounces@lists.ibiblio.org] >> On Behalf Of Ruth Bierhoff >> Sent: Monday, January 19, 2009 12:52 PM >> To: Pacific Bulb Society >> Subject: Re: [pbs] Membership renewal >> >> Hi Dell, >> To the best of my knowledge my membership is good to Jan 1/2010. I became >> a >> new member in October 2008. If I need to renew anyway, please let me >> know. >> Thanks, >> Ruth Bierhoff >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Dell Sherk" >> To: "'Adam Fikso'" ; "Annalee" >> ; "Cathy Craig" ; >> ; "Douglas Westfall" ; "General PBS >> forum" ; "John Lonsdale" ; >> "'Macfarlane'" ; "'Mark'" ; >> "'Mark Wilcox'" ; "'Pat Colville'" >> ; "The Masterson Family" >> >> Sent: Sunday, January 18, 2009 3:00 PM >> Subject: [pbs] Membership renewal >> >> >>> Hi All, >>> >>> It is a new year, and some of you still have not renewed your PBS >>> membership >>> by paying your dues for 2009. If you want to keep getting the treasures >>> that >>> the PBS BX has to offer, renew right away. Go to the website: >>> www.pacificbulbsociety.org >>> >>> Best wishes, >>> Dell >>> >>> Dell Sherk, PBS BX >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> pbs mailing list >>> pbs@lists.ibiblio.org >>> http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php >>> http://pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki >>> >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> pbs mailing list >> pbs@lists.ibiblio.org >> http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php >> http://pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki >> >> _______________________________________________ >> pbs mailing list >> pbs@lists.ibiblio.org >> http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php >> http://pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki >> >> > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 14 > Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2009 04:26:10 -0500 > From: "Ruth Bierhoff" > Subject: Re: [pbs] Membership renewal > To: "Pacific Bulb Society" > Message-ID: <93E024BE6A194E7EA840BA0F336ECAAD@bierhoffcjj14d> > Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; > reply-type=original > > Thanks, Pat. Ruth > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Pat Colville" > To: "Pacific Bulb Society" > Sent: Monday, January 19, 2009 3:18 PM > Subject: Re: [pbs] Membership renewal > > > Hello Ruth: Your membership is good until the end of this year. I will > get the corrected records to Dell > > Pat Colville > PBS Membership Director > 1555 washburn R. > Pasadena, CA 91105 > Tel: 909- 349-2933 > Fax 909- 427-0634 > > "THIS DOCUMENT IS INTENDED FOR THE USE OF THE PARTY TO WHOM IT IS > ADDRESSED > AND MAY CONTAIN INFORMATION THAT IS CONFIDENTIAL" If you are not the > intended recipient and have received this document in error , please > return > it to the originator and ensure its destruction. Any dissemination or > copying of this document and its attachments by any one other than the > addressee is strictly prohibited. > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: pbs-bounces@lists.ibiblio.org [mailto:pbs-bounces@lists.ibiblio.org] > On Behalf Of Ruth Bierhoff > Sent: Monday, January 19, 2009 9:52 AM > To: Pacific Bulb Society > Subject: Re: [pbs] Membership renewal > > Hi Dell, > To the best of my knowledge my membership is good to Jan 1/2010. I became > a > new member in October 2008. If I need to renew anyway, please let me know. > Thanks, > Ruth Bierhoff > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Dell Sherk" > To: "'Adam Fikso'" ; "Annalee" > ; "Cathy Craig" ; > ; "Douglas Westfall" ; "General PBS > forum" ; "John Lonsdale" ; > "'Macfarlane'" ; "'Mark'" ; > "'Mark Wilcox'" ; "'Pat Colville'" > ; "The Masterson Family" > > Sent: Sunday, January 18, 2009 3:00 PM > Subject: [pbs] Membership renewal > > >> Hi All, >> >> It is a new year, and some of you still have not renewed your PBS >> membership >> by paying your dues for 2009. If you want to keep getting the treasures >> that >> the PBS BX has to offer, renew right away. Go to the website: >> www.pacificbulbsociety.org >> >> Best wishes, >> Dell >> >> Dell Sherk, PBS BX >> >> _______________________________________________ >> pbs mailing list >> pbs@lists.ibiblio.org >> http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php >> http://pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > pbs mailing list > pbs@lists.ibiblio.org > http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php > http://pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki > > > _______________________________________________ > pbs mailing list > pbs@lists.ibiblio.org > http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php > http://pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki > > > > > ------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > pbs mailing list > pbs@lists.ibiblio.org > http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php > > > End of pbs Digest, Vol 72, Issue 27 > *********************************** _______________________________________________ pbs mailing list pbs@lists.ibiblio.org http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php http://pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki From johannes-ulrich-urban@T-Online.de Tue Jan 20 18:38:38 2009 Message-Id: <1LPQAt-1sESiO0@fwd04.aul.t-online.de> From: "Uli Urban" Subject: protected cold frame Date: 20 Jan 2009 23:38 GMT Dear Jane,Dear Jim, Obviously I did not follow all the contributions so it is the first time I hear about your protected cold frame. It sounds most interesting and I have had the idea to build something like this for many years in my garden but have not yet done so. It was most interesting to read about your cold frames and thank you for the photos. I use a simpler different version to cover two beds on the base of my greenhouse wall: one for hardy cactus that need just protection from winter rain and one for tender perennials and half-hardy bulbs. It worked wonders last year but I do not yet know how the results will be this very cold winter. Some of the foliage at least looks VERY dead. I bought old commercial cold frame windows from a nursery, replaced the glass with polycarbonate (Plexiglas) which allows UV-spectrum rays through, is lightweight and will not break. These windows are leaning at an angle of about 45° to the wall and allow the wind to pass in order to avoid overheating on sunny days. For opening mechanisms there are automatic vent controls that work without electricity. I used several of them in my old greenhouse. Once adjusted they work forever very reliably, many different models are on the market, I think they were invented in England and use the expansion/shrinking of hydraulic oil in changing temperatures which is transmitted by cleverly designed levers to the windows that open and close accordingly. Is much simpler and cheaper than motorized thermostat-controlled ventilation. YES, PLEASE re-publish the article on cold frames for us PBS-members! greetings from Germany, recovering from one of the coldest periods recorded...... Camellias and Trachycarpus alive (so far) Chamaerops (experimental planting) and Sabal probably dead. Uli From adam14113@ameritech.net Tue Jan 20 20:20:12 2009 Message-Id: <69300FBB501744649EE39B704B59A1F5@FAMILY> From: "Adam Fikso" Subject: protected cold frame Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2009 19:19:54 -0600 Thanks Uli. I encountered these tyemperature-controlled devices as a youngster about 70 years ago, but did not know that they were hydraulic. Are they still being made? Energy-saving, I'd think and need to be brought back or re-popularized for today's world . ----- Original Message ----- From: "Uli Urban" To: "Pacifib Bulb Society messages" Sent: Tuesday, January 20, 2009 5:38 PM Subject: [pbs] protected cold frame Dear Jane,Dear Jim, It was most interesting to read about your cold frames and thank you for the photos. I use a simpler different version to cover two beds on the base of my greenhouse wall: one for hardy cactus that need just protection from winter rain and one for tender perennials and half-hardy bulbs. It worked wonders last year but I do not yet know how the results will be this very cold winter. Some of the foliage at least looks VERY dead. I bought old commercial cold frame windows from a nursery, replaced the glass with polycarbonate (Plexiglas) which allows UV-spectrum rays through, is lightweight and will not break. These windows are leaning at an angle of about 45° to the wall and allow the wind to pass in order to avoid overheating on sunny days. For opening mechanisms there are automatic vent controls that work without electricity. I used several of them in my old greenhouse. Once adjusted they work forever very reliably, many different models are on the market, I think they were invented in England and use the expansion/shrinking of hydraulic oil in changing temperatures which is transmitted by cleverly designed levers to the windows that open and From hansennursery@coosnet.com Tue Jan 20 21:06:22 2009 Message-Id: From: "Robin Hansen" Subject: protected cold frame Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2009 18:05:55 -0800 I think it would be great to reprint articles from other venues from time to time. I find it very helpful, and even though I know I must have Jane's article somewhere, bring it on! Robin Hansen Praying for rain in SW Oregon ----- Original Message ----- From: Marguerite English To: Pacific Bulb Society Sent: Tuesday, January 20, 2009 10:48 AM Subject: Re: [pbs] protected cold frame The Bulb Garden will be happy to reprint anything you write, Jane. We also published a version of that article in one of our very first issues. If folks agree, we can surely get it into the summer issue, if not spring. It was very enjoyable. While I am writing, I would like to ask some of you to respond to a quick survey. Please send your response privately. When reading any of our recent articles, did you check out a website or purchase plants from the author. ---- Pacific Bulb Society wrote: > > For those who are asking for more details about using bulb frames, I > wrote an article on the subject for the NARGS Rock Garden Quarterly > some years ago. Would people like to have it reprinted in the PBS newsletter? > > Jane McGary > _______________________________________________ pbs mailing list pbs@lists.ibiblio.org http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php http://pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com Version: 8.0.176 / Virus Database: 270.10.10/1903 - Release Date: 1/19/2009 8:52 PM From ksayce@willapabay.org Tue Jan 20 21:13:47 2009 Message-Id: <6704E3A1-9FC0-4B65-8DB7-A97ED5ECC5D1@willapabay.org> From: Kathleen Sayce Subject: protected cold frames Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2009 18:13:14 -0800 Jim, Thanks for those details. Let me tell you a bit more about the conditions we see here in winter. I garden in USDA zone 8, sometimes zone 9, depending on the strength of El Nino-Southern Oscillations and where the Pacific Decadal Oscillation is its cycle, which now definitely is in the cooler wetter part of its cycle. During warm dry cycles & ENSOs, frost free winters are common. During cold wet, the present winter is typical, solid zone 8 to upper zone 7 weather. 85-100 inches of rain is typical, most of it falling in fall-spring, with cool dry summers. This is just above the Columbia River on the coast, in the Pacific Northwest. In the recent cold spell this winter & late fall, we saw temps to 18F here (actually 22 at my place, but I'm in a warmer spot than the official weather recording station), and our winds are routinely above 80 for several storms each winter. Last winter we had 3 storms in 3 days, with winds during the last two 120 mph plus. The anemometers all died in this area, so we don't know what the max winds were––the devices reached around 127 mph and blew away. My problem, or should I say dither factors, in deciding what to build, have more to do with excessive wet and very strong winds than with winter cold. So I envision my proposed cold frame primarily as a rain shelter, but one that needs sturdy construction so the glazing can be tied down/anchored/bolted in place in strong winds. I saved some polycarbonate twinwall glazing from a recent sunroom rebuild (not mine, unfortunately, but our rental place), so plan to use this, as it can take direct strikes from wind-blown branches and clams dropped by crows (did I mention the tidelands a few feet away?), which all hard surfaces, including cars, roofs, decks and roads, are subject to. I also know I'll be trying copper strips for slug and snail resistance. The dither factors that remain include: inside height when closed. Anchoring the panels, when open or closed, in the wind. How deep to set the gravel base for good drainage. So, your information helps me, though as you can see, I am still pondering, and would love to hear from others about their systems. I expect an alpine greenhouse is in my future, to deal with the above issues, glazed with something very sturdy. Thanks, Kathleen Near the mouth of the Columbia River on the Pacific Ocean, where today it was clear, sunny, and above 60F. Snowdrops and crocus are flowering in my garden. From ksayce@willapabay.org Tue Jan 20 21:15:50 2009 Message-Id: From: Kathleen Sayce Subject: protected cold frames Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2009 18:15:16 -0800 I also appreciated Jane's comments. Jane is geographically not too far from me, but gardens in a very different world with colder winters and warmer summers. Kathleen From sgage4@eq.edu.au Wed Jan 21 00:25:44 2009 Message-Id: From: Shelley GAGE Subject: Bunya Pine Seeds Date: Wed, 21 Jan 2009 15:25:41 +1000 Dear All, Last year I offered to send seeds of the Bunya Pine to someone in South America and I have lost their contact details so am hoping he will read this and contact me through PBS as Bunya Pine seeds are ripe now. Shelley Gage  Queensland Australia - From brian.whyer@btinternet.com Wed Jan 21 04:47:31 2009 Message-Id: From: "Brian Whyer" Subject: protected cold frame Date: Wed, 21 Jan 2009 09:47:25 -0000 > Thanks Uli. I encountered these tyemperature-controlled devices as a > youngster about 70 years ago, but did not know that they were hydraulic. > Are they still being made? Energy-saving, I'd think and need to be brought > back or re-popularized for today's world These are available in almost any Garden Centre, or from a greenhouse supplier, in the UK. Just Google "automatic window opener". Different lifting strengths available. Some get tired after about 20-30 years or so, and stop working. I guess they leak slowly. Brian Whyer, Buckinghamshire, England, zone ~8 From info@auchgourishbotanicgarden.org Wed Jan 21 07:23:11 2009 Message-Id: <2EAF4EDD2D58434EB022B4CFBC955A3D@homepc> From: Subject: survey Date: Wed, 21 Jan 2009 12:23:39 -0000 As requested privately. I never or almost never seek out a website listed on PBS and I never buy plants because as a rule these are offered for sale in North America and the hoops to jump to facilitate importation are rarely worth the trouble, I also believe it works the other way too. In addition, with very few exceptions as a rule I only grow plants from seed almost all of which must have provenance details and it seems I work on interests which are marginally shared by most posters however I have no way of knowing if that is the case. All of that said however, it is a marvellous site for the exchange of information and to encourage new and novice gardeners who badly need a steer and encouragement from time to time which seems to be willingly given by so many generous people. We simply do not have an analogue here in Europe, so all power to your elbow[s]. The benefits which I receive as an outsider are being able to learn and observe what are the interests and concerns amongst other English speaking people who generally live a VERY LONG WAY AWAY from this tiny country of mine which in its day was home to so many of your member's ancestors. Iain -- I am using the free version of SPAMfighter. We are a community of 5.9 million users fighting spam. SPAMfighter has removed 44146 of my spam emails to date. Get the free SPAMfighter here: http://www.spamfighter.com/len The Professional version does not have this message From janemcgary@earthlink.net Wed Jan 21 14:07:13 2009 Message-Id: From: Jane McGary Subject: protected cold frames Date: Wed, 21 Jan 2009 11:07:04 -0800 Regarding cold frames, UIi mentioned "polycarbonate (Plexiglas)" but I think these are two different things, at least as the terms are used in North America. I have Plexiglas on my older frames, and it is not unbreakable; I've had it break when the wind blew something large into a light, and also once when somebody stumbled and fell against it. As I know the term "polycarbonate," it's a somewhat more flexible material that comes either as Kathleen mentioned in double or triple wall forms, or a corrugated form. I have the latter on my new frames, and it doesn't break but can tear if struck hard by something sharp. The main objections to the flexible polycarbonate are that it tends to lose transparency with age, which glass and plexi do not, and that it is very hard to get tree pollen off it, whereas removing pollen from glass or plexi is not difficult. The pollen, in a wet climate, not only diminishes transparency but also hosts mold. For this reason, the bulb house I'm planning to have built after I move to the city (to a place where there are many large trees in the neighborhood) is going to have a glass roof. I'll have to hire a window-washing company to clean it at least once a year, but the light transmission will remain the same, and there will be no trees near enough to drop limbs on it. In the warmer environment of the city, the bulb house will not require enclosed sides, just a roof for moisture control. Severe cold spells can be dealt with by microfoam blankets such as I use here inside the frames, held down with bird netting and groundcloth pins. If I were building frames that would be expected to last only a few years, I'd still opt for polycarbonate because it is light and easy to work with. Different kinds of automatic vent controls can be obtained from Charley's Greenhouses in Washington; they have a website and print catalog. Jane McGary Northwestern Oregon, USA From btankers@chicagobotanic.org Wed Jan 21 15:01:34 2009 Message-Id: <52857FDB394B7E45BA1F2E60D7313E2A0EE369A8@cbgmail.chicagobotanic.org> From: "Boyce Tankersley" Subject: protected cold frames Date: Wed, 21 Jan 2009 14:00:16 -0600 Hummerts International located in St. Louis, MO also has a nice online catalog with a number of greenhouse/coldframe components for sale. http://www.hummert.com/aboutus.asp Boyce Tankersley Director of Living Plant Documentation Chicago Botanic Garden 1000 Lake Cook Road Glencoe, IL 60022 tel: 847-835-6841 fax: 847-835-1635 email: btankers@chicagobotanic.org -----Original Message----- Different kinds of automatic vent controls can be obtained from Charley's Greenhouses in Washington; they have a website and print catalog. Jane McGary Northwestern Oregon, USA _______________________________________________ pbs mailing list pbs@lists.ibiblio.org http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php http://pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki From oothal@hotmail.com Wed Jan 21 16:44:50 2009 Message-Id: From: Justin Smith Subject: protected cold frames Date: Wed, 21 Jan 2009 15:44:48 -0600 Hi all, What was said:> Regarding cold frames, UIi mentioned "polycarbonate (Plexiglas)" but > I think these are two different things, at least as the terms are > used in North America. I have Plexiglas on my older frames, and it is > not unbreakable; I've had it break when the wind blew something large > into a light, and also once when somebody stumbled and fell against > it. As I know the term "polycarbonate," it's a somewhat more flexible > material that comes either as Kathleen mentioned in double or triple > wall forms, or a corrugated form. I have the latter on my new frames, > and it doesn't break but can tear if struck hard by something sharp.> For those who have tough conditions. Like winds over 120 mph or you fear that polycarbonate and Plexiglas are not tough enough to withstand the occasional person with a sharp object falling on your cold frame. I would suggest a product called Lexan. A .5 inch thick sheet of Lexan along with 6 inch thick steel reinforced concrete sides. You would have a cold frame that would withstand a Russian nuclear attack. Justin Woodville, TX 8b/9a _________________________________________________________________ Windows Live™ Hotmail®:…more than just e-mail. http://windowslive.com/explore?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_t2_hm_justgotbetter_explore_012009 From crinum@libero.it Thu Jan 22 14:42:50 2009 Message-Id: From: "Alberto Grossi" Subject: OT- Article about orchids Date: Thu, 22 Jan 2009 20:42:45 +0100 Hi all, does anyone have full access to this article: An history of orchid hybridization, seed germination and tissue culture by Joseph Arditti, from Botanical Journal of the Linnean Society, 1984. vol 89 issue 4 Do not worry, I am going to be unfaithful to Amaryllidaceae! Thank you. Alberto From crinum@libero.it Thu Jan 22 14:43:04 2009 Message-Id: From: "Alberto Grossi" Subject: OT- Article about orchids Date: Thu, 22 Jan 2009 20:43:00 +0100 Hi all, does anyone have full access to this article: An history of orchid hybridization, seed germination and tissue culture by Joseph Arditti, from Botanical Journal of the Linnean Society, 1984. vol 89 issue 4 Do not worry, I am going to be unfaithful to Amaryllidaceae! Thank you. Alberto From totototo@telus.net Thu Jan 22 22:18:32 2009 Message-Id: <4978C686.30908.16E8@localhost> From: totototo@telus.net Subject: protected cold frames Date: Thu, 22 Jan 2009 19:18:30 -0800 On 21 Jan 2009, at 11:07, Jane McGary wrote: > Regarding cold frames, UIi mentioned "polycarbonate (Plexiglas)" but > I think these are two different things, at least as the terms are > used in North America. Plexiglas is polymethylmethacrylate, and is a fairly old product. Lexan is a polycarbonate and was first introduced in the early 1960s. -- Rodger Whitlock Victoria, British Columbia, Canada Maritime Zone 8, a cool Mediterranean climate on beautiful Vancouver Island http://maps.google.ca/maps?q=48.4676,-123.3262&ll=48.4676,-123.3262&z=14 From jwaddick@kc.rr.com Fri Jan 23 00:38:12 2009 Message-Id: From: James Waddick Subject: survey Date: Thu, 22 Jan 2009 23:40:07 -0600 >As requested privately. I never or almost never seek out a website >listed on PBS and I never buy plants because as a rule these are >offered for sale in North America and the hoops to jump to >facilitate importation are rarely worth the trouble, I also believe >it works the other way too. Dear Iain, Sorry no one has made a response to your note. I tend to disagree. .... in part. I exchange seeds and plants often beyond these shores- both ways. As seed chairman for SIGNA, I've received thousands of seed this season from 8 or 9 countries and just today mailed seeds to 10 countries. I hear from friends that seeds travel fairly freely in the mail with or without USDA regulations and the fear they encourage. I have purchased, seeds, bulbs and plants from various countries and continents routinely and manage to navigate the USDA regulations and their stupidity. Just look at the Bulb Ex with donations from Argentina, Italy, Canada, and many other countries. I bet Dell ships packets around the world. I do agree that most of us are less concerned with specific provenance as you must be. I do think you could get more specifics if requested. I am most impressed by the high quality and rarity of BX offerings. Still one of the main benefits of this list is the exchange of info, experience and insights. In these dark days of winter, it is a special treat to hear of something 'green' going on in milder parts of the world, greenhouses and for the hardiest plant productions. I hope others give you their 2 cents worth Jim W. -- Dr. James W. Waddick 8871 NW Brostrom Rd. Kansas City Missouri 64152-2711 USA Ph. 816-746-1949 Zone 5 Record low -23F Summer 100F + From jshields@indy.net Sat Jan 24 09:15:04 2009 Message-Id: <5.1.0.14.2.20090124090328.01d3abe0@pop.indy.net> From: "J.E. Shields" Subject: survey Date: Sat, 24 Jan 2009 09:16:20 -0500 I often follow links to see images. Now that browsers are getting faster, I don't mind following links to see images. Before, I preferred having images attached to the messages. I don't buy many bulbs now, and then usually only from specialists. I still try to get rarities by trading. I don't find importing and exporting bulbs or seeds to be a problem, as I have the permits and I can get (for the $50 fee) a phyto with no hassle and only a little planning. I'm not a botanical garden, so I don't have to have wild collected plants and seeds. I like to get the wild things when it's legal, but I don't require wild material. Jim Shields At 12:23 PM 1/21/2009 +0000, Ian wrote: >As requested privately. I never or almost never seek out a website listed >on PBS and I never buy plants because as a rule these are offered for sale >in North America and the hoops to jump to facilitate importation are >rarely worth the trouble, I also believe it works the other way too. In >addition, with very few exceptions as a rule I only grow plants from seed >almost all of which must have provenance details and it seems I work on >interests which are marginally shared by most posters however I have no >way of knowing if that is the case. >... ************************************************* Jim Shields USDA Zone 5 Shields Gardens, Ltd. P.O. Box 92 WWW: http://www.shieldsgardens.com/ Westfield, Indiana 46074, USA Tel. ++1-317-867-3344 or toll-free 1-866-449-3344 in USA From ds429@comcast.net Sun Jan 25 13:06:39 2009 Message-Id: <000801c97f17$ae4124d0$0ac36e70$@net> From: "Dell Sherk" Subject: [BULBS-L] Importing Bulbs and Seeds Date: Sun, 25 Jan 2009 13:06:43 -0500 Jim Shields wrote: " You need to use the PPQ 587 application, and in the application specify "Small Lots of Seeds" on the first line of the list of plant species you want to import, if all you want are seeds. I usually list genera by families, and specific countries. The permit came back listing "all eligible species" from "all eligible countries." That covers it all quite nicely." Jim, How do you deal with the multitude of species and the multitude of countries of origin? E.g. do Zephyranthes from Mexico have to be separated from the same genus from Argentina? And after the permit is issued, what if you decide that you want to import some zephyranthes seed from Indonesia and hadn't listed it? I just tried to apply on line and found that I needed to establish an e-authentication account. So I started that process, but can't get back into the site through my new login. And then I see that I have to take a picture ID to a USDA office to get the account activated. So, I'll try again to apply the old fashioned paper way. Dell Dell Sherk, Pacific Bulb Society =================================================== From oothal@hotmail.com Sun Jan 25 15:07:42 2009 Message-Id: From: Justin Smith Subject: [BULBS-L] Importing Bulbs and Seeds Date: Sun, 25 Jan 2009 14:07:40 -0600 Hi all, This was said: > How do you deal with the multitude of species and the multitude of countries> of origin? E.g. do Zephyranthes from Mexico have to be separated from the> same genus from Argentina? And after the permit is issued, what if you> decide that you want to import some zephyranthes seed from Indonesia and> hadn't listed it? > I just tried to apply on line and found that I needed to establish an> e-authentication account. ..... ...And then I see that I have to take a picture> ID to a USDA office to get the account activated. So, I'll try again to> apply the old fashioned paper way.> > Dell The USDA implemented the new online account after I had gotten my "small lot of seed" permit, but lucky me the post office decided to renumber my road. So I had to make me an account to get to my information to change it. What a pain. In order to find the right person who could validate my account with a photo id. I had to make two trips to my so called... "Local" office some 30 miles away. All that said and done. If you ask two different people at the UDSA about any rule you will get two different answers usually along with a request for you to call someone else. LOL I have no idea why they ask you to spell out exactly what seed you want to import and from what country. I called someone at the USDA HQ. I think it was in Maryland. The woman told me you don't have to list every seed from every country. All I did was list 3 or 4 seeds from just a couple of countries. My permit also says "Eligible Taxa" and "Varius approved countries." I have a list of what is restricted and from where. Though I do not remember if it came with my plant permit or my seed permit. Everyone (I mean US citizens) should have a copy of the "Federal noxious weed list", Circular Q.37-10 "the cites requirement list", and the: United States Department of Agriculture Animal and Plant Health Inspection Service Plant Protection and Quarantine Title 7 - Agriculture Chapter III Animal and Plant Health Inspection Service Part 319 Foreign Quarantine Notices Subpart - Nursery Stock, Plants, Roots, Bulbs, Seeds and other Plant Products Sec. 319.37 The title itself takes up half a page of paper. I had recently a USDA inspector come to my house from Colorado over a Cites question. It was too bad he could not even explain the rule to me, and he was investigating it. Go figure that! One important things to remember about the "small lot of seed" program is that it is just that a "SMALL" lot of seed, thats 50 seed or less. If you import 51 seed it is suppose to have a phyto. Bummer huh. The way the "small lot of seed" is "suppose to work" is really frustrating. You get your permit along with several Green and Yellow stickers with the USDA port of entry address on it. You send a copy of your permit and the green and yellow sticker to your seed supplier. They place a copy of your permit in with the seed, close up the package and place the Green and Yellow sticker on the outside. (The sticker is just a facy address label for the USDA port of entry) Your address is not to appear on the outside of the package! This package gets shipped directly to the USDA port of entry address. The USDA open and inspect contents for violations. Then they put your address on the package and place it for pickup by ....... "oh this is where it gets good" a carrier that you have an account with. So ..... That pretty much means you need to have some type of account with UPS or hope the US post office would ship things to you postage due but i doubt it. The shipper only pays postage to the USDA port of entry, it is up to you to figure out how to get it shipped to you from the Port of entry. That is the way it is "suppose to work" though the shippers that bother to use the green and yellow label ALSO put your address on the outside and pay shipment to "YOUR" address. That seems to get the package to customs if they want to look inside and to your address without much pain on anyone. But this is not how it is suppose to work. But then again most seed suppliers don't even bother with the green and yellow labels even when you send it to them and ask them to. The "small lot of seed" program is simply designed for the USDA to give to the mass of people who buy, sell and trade seeds a "legal" way of doing business. Though "legal" does in no way mean, it is easy to follow. Happy Seed Importing!!! Ring... ring..... Hello?........ Yes this is the USDA and we have a shipment of seed for you and we have had to destroy the packs of brunsvigia seed........ Uhhhh why?......... Because they are in fruit........ In fruit? But they are fleshy seed!......... I am sorry but our inspector says they are in fruit so they have been destroyed....... BUT... BUT.... They are fleshy seed!!.... You have any other questions before I go?......... Uhh, I guess it would do me no good, even if I did.......... Ok then goodbye click Yes, and another fan of the USDA is born!! Have fun all! Justin Woodville, 8b/9a _________________________________________________________________ Windows Live™ Hotmail®…more than just e-mail. http://windowslive.com/howitworks?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_t2_hm_justgotbetter_howitworks_012009 From jshields@indy.net Sun Jan 25 15:18:38 2009 Message-Id: <5.1.0.14.2.20090125133115.01d34b98@pop.indy.net> From: "J.E. Shields" Subject: [BULBS-L] Importing Bulbs and Seeds Date: Sun, 25 Jan 2009 15:19:58 -0500 At 01:06 PM 1/25/2009 -0500, you wrote: >Jim Shields wrote: " You need to use the PPQ 587 application, and in the >application specify "Small Lots of Seeds" on the first line of the list of >plant species you want to import, if all you want are seeds. I usually list >genera by families, and specific countries. The permit came back listing >"all eligible species" from "all eligible countries." That covers it all >quite nicely." > > > >Jim, > >How do you deal with the multitude of species and the multitude of countries >of origin? E.g. do Zephyranthes from Mexico have to be separated from the >same genus from Argentina? And after the permit is issued, what if you >decide that you want to import some zephyranthes seed from Indonesia and >hadn't listed it? > One way is to just specify "All eligible countries" or "Various eligible countries" as Juston says. > >I just tried to apply on line and found that I needed to establish an >e-authentication account. So I started that process, but can't get back into >the site through my new login. And then I see that I have to take a picture >ID to a USDA office to get the account activated. So, I'll try again to >apply the old fashioned paper way. > >Dell > I'm with you, Dell. Unless there is an urgent time limit for use of your permit, the snailmail way is a lot less hassle. Jim Shields ************************************************* Jim Shields USDA Zone 5 Shields Gardens, Ltd. P.O. Box 92 WWW: http://www.shieldsgardens.com/ Westfield, Indiana 46074, USA Tel. ++1-317-867-3344 or toll-free 1-866-449-3344 in USA From djordan68@comcast.net Sun Jan 25 17:04:43 2009 Message-Id: <892FA1984594412BBF76FC3D2747A1EE@debbiePC> From: "Deborah Jordan" Subject: [BULBS-L] Importing Bulbs and Seeds Date: Sun, 25 Jan 2009 16:04:31 -0600 I'm glad I live near the Port of Houston for receiving mail from overseas and that its one of the primary destinations for massive amounts of incoming and outgoing international mail. They are so overwhelmed, they just run the dogs along long conveyor belts and unless they hit on drugs or explosives, its good to go (A good friend of mine works there). Debbie ----- Original Message ----- From: "Justin Smith" To: Sent: Sunday, January 25, 2009 2:07 PM Subject: Re: [pbs] [BULBS-L] Importing Bulbs and Seeds Hi all, This was said: > How do you deal with the multitude of species and the multitude of > countries> of origin? E.g. do Zephyranthes from Mexico have to be > separated from the> same genus from Argentina? And after the permit is > issued, what if you> decide that you want to import some zephyranthes seed > from Indonesia and> hadn't listed it? > I just tried to apply on line and > found that I needed to establish an> e-authentication account. ..... > ...And then I see that I have to take a picture> ID to a USDA office to > get the account activated. So, I'll try again to> apply the old fashioned > paper way.> > Dell The USDA implemented the new online account after I had gotten my "small lot of seed" permit, but lucky me the post office decided to renumber my road. So I had to make me an account to get to my information to change it. What a pain. In order to find the right person who could validate my account with a photo id. I had to make two trips to my so called... "Local" office some 30 miles away. All that said and done. If you ask two different people at the UDSA about any rule you will get two different answers usually along with a request for you to call someone else. LOL I have no idea why they ask you to spell out exactly what seed you want to import and from what country. I called someone at the USDA HQ. I think it was in Maryland. The woman told me you don't have to list every seed from every country. All I did was list 3 or 4 seeds from just a couple of countries. My permit also says "Eligible Taxa" and "Varius approved countries." I have a list of what is restricted and from where. Though I do not remember if it came with my plant permit or my seed permit. Everyone (I mean US citizens) should have a copy of the "Federal noxious weed list", Circular Q.37-10 "the cites requirement list", and the: United States Department of Agriculture Animal and Plant Health Inspection Service Plant Protection and Quarantine Title 7 - Agriculture Chapter III Animal and Plant Health Inspection Service Part 319 Foreign Quarantine Notices Subpart - Nursery Stock, Plants, Roots, Bulbs, Seeds and other Plant Products Sec. 319.37 The title itself takes up half a page of paper. I had recently a USDA inspector come to my house from Colorado over a Cites question. It was too bad he could not even explain the rule to me, and he was investigating it. Go figure that! One important things to remember about the "small lot of seed" program is that it is just that a "SMALL" lot of seed, thats 50 seed or less. If you import 51 seed it is suppose to have a phyto. Bummer huh. The way the "small lot of seed" is "suppose to work" is really frustrating. You get your permit along with several Green and Yellow stickers with the USDA port of entry address on it. You send a copy of your permit and the green and yellow sticker to your seed supplier. They place a copy of your permit in with the seed, close up the package and place the Green and Yellow sticker on the outside. (The sticker is just a facy address label for the USDA port of entry) Your address is not to appear on the outside of the package! This package gets shipped directly to the USDA port of entry address. The USDA open and inspect contents for violations. Then they put your address on the package and place it for pickup by ....... "oh this is where it gets good" a carrier that you have an account with. So ..... That pretty much means you need to have some type of account with UPS or hope the US post office would ship things to you postage due but i doubt it. The shipper only pays postage to the USDA port of entry, it is up to you to figure out how to get it shipped to you from the Port of entry. That is the way it is "suppose to work" though the shippers that bother to use the green and yellow label ALSO put your address on the outside and pay shipment to "YOUR" address. That seems to get the package to customs if they want to look inside and to your address without much pain on anyone. But this is not how it is suppose to work. But then again most seed suppliers don't even bother with the green and yellow labels even when you send it to them and ask them to. The "small lot of seed" program is simply designed for the USDA to give to the mass of people who buy, sell and trade seeds a "legal" way of doing business. Though "legal" does in no way mean, it is easy to follow. Happy Seed Importing!!! Ring... ring..... Hello?........ Yes this is the USDA and we have a shipment of seed for you and we have had to destroy the packs of brunsvigia seed........ Uhhhh why?......... Because they are in fruit........ In fruit? But they are fleshy seed!......... I am sorry but our inspector says they are in fruit so they have been destroyed....... BUT... BUT.... They are fleshy seed!!.... You have any other questions before I go?......... Uhh, I guess it would do me no good, even if I did.......... Ok then goodbye click Yes, and another fan of the USDA is born!! Have fun all! Justin Woodville, 8b/9a _________________________________________________________________ Windows Live™ Hotmail®…more than just e-mail. http://windowslive.com/howitworks?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_t2_hm_justgotbetter_howitworks_012009 _______________________________________________ pbs mailing list pbs@lists.ibiblio.org http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php http://pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki From jimmckenney@jimmckenney.com Sun Jan 25 17:46:48 2009 Message-Id: <000601c97f3f$52db9800$2f01a8c0@Library> From: "Jim McKenney" Subject: [SPAM] Re: [BULBS-L] Importing Bulbs and Seeds Date: Sun, 25 Jan 2009 17:50:28 -0500 Justin wrote about his problems in using the small seed lots permit. Justin, if you had spent as much time reading the sixteen conditions which accompanied your import permit for small lots of seed, you would not have had the problems you mention. Condition number 10 reads, in plain English: “10. The shipment must be free from soil, plant material other than seed, other foreign matter or debris, seeds in the fruit or seed pod, and living organisims such as parasitic plnats, pathogens, insects, snails, and mites." When you write “One important things to remember about the "small lot of seed" program is that it is just that a "SMALL" lot of seed, thats 50 seed or less. If you import 51 seed it is suppose to have a phyto. Bummer huh” you’re spreading bad information. Go back and read the instructions. You are not limited to fifty seeds. The limit is a maximum of 50 packs x a maximum of fifty seeds per pack = 2500 seeds. All fifty packs can contain the same taxon, so you can import 2500 seeds of the same item under your small lots permit. Getting the shipper to comply with your request to repack the seeds in this manner is another issue! You also state “I have no idea why they ask you to spell out exactly what seed you want to import and from what country. I” You don’t have to “spell out exactly what seed you want to import”. It’s sufficient to simply list the genus. Justin, bellyaching about the problems you caused for yourself isn’t going to help anyone. Jim McKenney jimmckenney@jimmckenney.com Montgomery County, Maryland, USA, 39.03871º North, 77.09829º West, USDA zone 7, where Narcissus cantabricus foliosus is blooming in the protected frame. My Virtual Maryland Garden http://www.jimmckenney.com BLOG! http://mcwort.blogspot.com/ Webmaster Potomac Valley Chapter, NARGS Editor PVC Bulletin http://www.pvcnargs.org Webmaster Potomac Lily Society http://www.potomaclilysociety.org From markmazerandfm13@earthlink.net Sun Jan 25 18:37:53 2009 Message-Id: <4693034.1232926672295.JavaMail.root@elwamui-ovcar.atl.sa.earthlink.net> From: Mark Mazer Subject: [BULBS-L] Importing Bulbs and Seeds Date: Sun, 25 Jan 2009 18:37:51 -0500 (GMT-05:00) > >I'm glad I live near the Port of Houston for receiving mail from overseas >and that its one of the primary destinations for massive amounts of incoming >and outgoing international mail. They are so overwhelmed, they just run the >dogs along long conveyor belts and unless they hit on drugs or explosives, >its good to go (A good friend of mine works there). > >Debbie > Sure. Tweak their noses on a public forum and you might one day find agents with gold badges, warrents and guns at your door and that of your complicit friend. This is nothing to be proud of and puts at risk the priveleges of those of us who work within the system. Very foolish. Mark Mazer Hertford, North Carolina From djordan68@comcast.net Sun Jan 25 19:53:36 2009 Message-Id: <610876E03FEC49ED96B8B691616CAC56@debbiePC> From: "Deborah Jordan" Subject: [BULBS-L] Importing Bulbs and Seeds Date: Sun, 25 Jan 2009 18:53:27 -0600 I really doubt that Mark--I highly suspect they have much more important matters to deal with than people exchanging a few seeds and bulbs. Perhaps you should put things into a more "global" perspective. Debbie ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mark Mazer" To: "Pacific Bulb Society" Sent: Sunday, January 25, 2009 5:37 PM Subject: Re: [pbs] [BULBS-L] Importing Bulbs and Seeds > > >>I'm glad I live near the Port of Houston for receiving mail from overseas >>and that its one of the primary destinations for massive amounts of >>incoming >>and outgoing international mail. They are so overwhelmed, they just run >>the >>dogs along long conveyor belts and unless they hit on drugs or explosives, >>its good to go (A good friend of mine works there). >> >>Debbie >> > > Sure. Tweak their noses on a public forum and you might one day find > agents with gold badges, warrents and guns at your door and that of your > complicit friend. This is nothing to be proud of and puts at risk the > priveleges of those of us who work within the system. Very foolish. > > Mark Mazer > Hertford, North Carolina > _______________________________________________ > pbs mailing list > pbs@lists.ibiblio.org > http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php > http://pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki From aley_wd@mac.com Sun Jan 25 20:26:52 2009 Message-Id: <49380511161870797563920870585318621622-Webmail@me.com> From: WDA Subject: [BULBS-L] Importing Bulbs and Seeds Date: Sun, 25 Jan 2009 20:26:50 -0500 Some people believe that smuggling is like drug use. you start small and it can sometime lead one to take more risks as you become comfortable that you've beaten the odds of getting caught. Perhaps you'd like to tell me more about how easy it is to get past the system. You can email me directly: william.d.aley@aphis.usda.gov I can discuss what civil regulations you might be interested in and the penalties that can be levied against you when caught. Bill From hornig@earthlink.net Sun Jan 25 20:34:27 2009 Message-Id: From: "Ellen Hornig" Subject: [BULBS-L] Importing Bulbs and Seeds Date: Sun, 25 Jan 2009 20:39:38 -0500 Well, Bill, maybe you'd like to confirm (or refute) what my ag inspector told me: that so many APHIS inspectors have been assigned to other chores in Homeland Security that perhaps 5% of the shipments duly sent to them, under permits, actually get inspected. If this is true, the whole system is operating essentially by trying to create an atmosphere of fear rather than doing the job it purports to do. I'm not trying to engage in mudslinging, but I would love to see some solid numbers on what percentage of legal shipments actually gets inspected. ???? Ellen Ellen Hornig Seneca Hill Perennials 3712 County Route 57 Oswego NY 13126 USA www.senecahillperennials.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "WDA" To: "Pacific Bulb Society" Sent: Sunday, January 25, 2009 8:26 PM Subject: Re: [pbs] [BULBS-L] Importing Bulbs and Seeds > Some people believe that smuggling is like drug use. you start small and > it can sometime lead one to take more risks as you become comfortable that > you've beaten the odds of getting caught. Perhaps you'd like to tell me > more about how easy it is to get past the system. > You can email me directly: > william.d.aley@aphis.usda.gov > > I can discuss what civil regulations you might be interested in and the > penalties that can be levied against you when caught. > > Bill > _______________________________________________ > pbs mailing list > pbs@lists.ibiblio.org > http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php > http://pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki From zigur@hotmail.com Sun Jan 25 20:43:46 2009 Message-Id: From: Tim Harvey Subject: [BULBS-L] Importing Bulbs and Seeds Date: Sun, 25 Jan 2009 17:43:38 -0800 Why not tell us about the bulbs you are growing, what your growing conditions are, or post a few pictures to the wiki? T> Date: Sun, 25 Jan 2009 20:26:50 -0500> From: aley_wd@mac.com> To: pbs@lists.ibiblio.org> Subject: Re: [pbs] [BULBS-L] Importing Bulbs and Seeds> > Some people believe that smuggling is like drug use. you start small and it can sometime lead one to take more risks as you become comfortable that you've beaten the odds of getting caught. Perhaps you'd like to tell me more about how easy it is to get past the system.> You can email me directly:> william.d.aley@aphis.usda.gov> > I can discuss what civil regulations you might be interested in and the penalties that can be levied against you when caught.> > Bill> _______________________________________________> pbs mailing list> pbs@lists.ibiblio.org> http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php> http://pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki From honeybunny442@yahoo.com Sun Jan 25 21:14:06 2009 Message-Id: <787523.75323.qm@web56101.mail.re3.yahoo.com> From: Susan B Subject: [BULBS-L] Importing Bulbs and Seeds Date: Sun, 25 Jan 2009 18:14:10 -0800 (PST) I do know of a reptile collector (someone I rehomed a tortoise to) that was caught smuggling and did two years in prison, I've also heard of cycad smugglers doing time and getting huge fines. A few years ago I added citrus to my plant interests, and that really opened my eyes to importation problems.  Citrus greening and canker has almost wiped out the citrus industry, and you can no longer buy trees from Florida, parts of Texas, South Carolina, Louisiana, etc.  The insect vector for greening was not known in this country prior to 1989, and almost certainly came to the US via smuggled citrus plants (it is illegal to import citrus to the US). It seems as if they (the government) could make it easier to legitimately import bulbs and seed- the paperwork is somewhat intimidating and confusing, stories of confiscations even with correct paperwork are scary.  No wonder many feel more comfortable trying to sneak plants in rather than go through regular channels! Susan --- On Sun, 1/25/09, Tim Harvey wrote: From: Tim Harvey Subject: Re: [pbs] [BULBS-L] Importing Bulbs and Seeds To: "Bulb Society Pacific" Date: Sunday, January 25, 2009, 8:43 PM Why not tell us about the bulbs you are growing, what your growing conditions are, or post a few pictures to the wiki? T> Date: Sun, 25 Jan 2009 20:26:50 -0500> From: aley_wd@mac.com> To: pbs@lists.ibiblio.org> Subject: Re: [pbs] [BULBS-L] Importing Bulbs and Seeds> > Some people believe that smuggling is like drug use. you start small and it can sometime lead one to take more risks as you become comfortable that you've beaten the odds of getting caught. Perhaps you'd like to tell me more about how easy it is to get past the system.> You can email me directly:> william.d.aley@aphis.usda.gov> > I can discuss what civil regulations you might be interested in and the penalties that can be levied against you when caught.> > Bill> _______________________________________________> pbs mailing list> pbs@lists.ibiblio.org> http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php> http://pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki _______________________________________________ pbs mailing list pbs@lists.ibiblio.org http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php http://pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki From aley_wd@mac.com Sun Jan 25 21:17:50 2009 Message-Id: <101537583125229673965903167744910018859-Webmail@me.com> From: WDA Subject: [BULBS-L] Importing Bulbs and Seeds Date: Sun, 25 Jan 2009 21:17:46 -0500 DHS inspects cut flowers, fruits and vegetables, generally admissible cargo. It's true that 75% of PPQ went to DHS and as I mentioned before they are more proactive when they catch singular violators. They have also begun holding the importer responsible for the condition of imports. I work for PPQ. Propagative plant material is inspected at a plant inspection station by PPQ inspectors. I'm not going to get into a discussion about what you get away with because the government is overburdened with trying to catch the bad guys. I was at the Lost Gardens of Heligan, a meeting at ground zero about Phytophthoria kernovii- at the end of the tour of the grounds the representative from UK's plant protection organization cautioned everyone about becoming vectors by not being responsible of foot ware because they probably have live spores on their clothing. If they were off to another garden they could possibly spread the spores and infect new gardens. The representative from Australia without hesitation took off her boots and threw them in the rubbish bin. Later she said that she did not want to be known in Australia as the person who brought P.k. to Australia. Better safe than sorry was her attitude.I took photos of a Rhododendron in the garden that was over 100 years old. Largest I'd ever see well over 20 feet tall and 150 feet wide. It was infested with P.k. They tried to save it. It was later ground up and incinerated. As the old beech trees and acers begin to die. How did the pathogen get there? We don't know. What we do know is that there are a lot of hosts for just that one disease. It only takes the right plant in the right place to begin an epidemic. Question is what steps will you go to to make sure that your not remembered as the person who brought a new plant pest into your neighborhood? I deal with people all the time who want special consideration and exceptions to import prohibited plant material into the USA because they have their own reason to posses stuff that the US prohibits. People brag about what plant material they smuggle into the US all the time. Because it's not like drugs or guns it can't hurt anybody. As if they would never be held accountable for introducing some exotic plant pest into the USA- you know stuff like med fly, bamboo rust, hosta virus X,amaryllis fly, phytophthorias, emerald ash borers, citrus long horn beetles, Asian gypsy moth and the list continues. The belief that US citizens have the right to bring anything into the country without checks and precautions keeps people like me employed cleaning up the environmental messes both from big businesses and individual importers. The rice panicle mite in Texas is a good example of Scientists thinking they knew everything and managed to introduce a rice pest with Mexican Paddy rice sown into the Texas rice belt. Or the collectors that went and gathered boxwood cutting in Greece and somehow managed to introduce a new boxwood rust into Longwood Gardens. So you go and do what you believe is your right to do. There are plenty of people who take a more responsible approach to the importation of foreign plant material who will work to clean up those messes and try to make the system work better. God knows that people thought they were doing the right thing with Kudsu. It is rather like the person who throws a cigarette butt on the ground when they are done with it. I guess they just believe that someone will pick it up eventually. From adam14113@ameritech.net Sun Jan 25 21:45:12 2009 Message-Id: From: "Adam Fikso" Subject: [BULBS-L] Importing Bulbs and Seeds Date: Sun, 25 Jan 2009 20:44:23 -0600 If one reads the actual law, andrules for implementing it-- it's quite specific--and Jim Shields posted the essentials of it at least 6 months ago,. How come the current responders are debating this ? or forgot it so soon?. It provides that if the law is violated that the receiver of plant materials can be charged, not the sender ( who is in another country), with a fine of up to $10,000 and 6 months in jail. (My memory is serving at this point as reference .) All this is because of the Homeland Security Act, and changes in the federal bureaucracy which puts the importation of plants and materials (formerly under USDA alone-- under Homeland Security). Didn't anybody in the group pay attention except Shields and a few others of us? From hornig@earthlink.net Sun Jan 25 21:42:43 2009 Message-Id: From: "Ellen Hornig" Subject: [BULBS-L] Importing Bulbs and Seeds Date: Sun, 25 Jan 2009 21:48:32 -0500 I guess I'm confused by your response, Bill. I have absolutely no disagreement with your point that people should not take matters into their own hands and import plant materials illegally. What bothers me is that the legal imports apparently are not effectively being inspected (you don't refute my 5% figure), never mind the illegal ones. As I was once cheerfully told by an APHIS inspector, "A Czech phyto isn't worth the paper it's written on", and I assume this applies to phytos from many other countries as well. In a situation like this, sampling 5% of legal shipments does very little to exclude pests, because they probably stand as a good a chance of coming in on legal as illegal shipments. You really have to inspect everything, or at least everything coming from countries whose phytos are considered undependable. Or putting it a little differently, there is no argument a priori for concentrating efforts on discovering illegal shipments (which I assume are typically small) while passing legal shipments (many of which are very large) without inspection, is there? And if PPQ is really concerned with excluding new pests and pathogens, a goal I applaud without reservation, shouldn't it put its money where it gets the most bang for the buck - which I assume is where the largest volume of imports can be found? Ellen Ellen Hornig Seneca Hill Perennials 3712 County Route 57 Oswego NY 13126 USA www.senecahillperennials.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "WDA" To: "Pacific Bulb Society" Sent: Sunday, January 25, 2009 9:17 PM Subject: Re: [pbs] [BULBS-L] Importing Bulbs and Seeds > DHS inspects cut flowers, fruits and vegetables, generally admissible > cargo. It's true that 75% of PPQ went to DHS and as I mentioned before > they are more proactive when they catch singular violators. They have also > begun holding the importer responsible for the condition of imports. I > work for PPQ. > Propagative plant material is inspected at a plant inspection station by > PPQ inspectors. > From HHeaven77@aol.com Sun Jan 25 21:57:56 2009 Message-Id: <8CB4D790280DC54-844-233D@WEBMAIL-DC06.sysops.aol.com> From: hheaven77@aol.com Subject: Importing Bulbs and Seeds Date: Sun, 25 Jan 2009 21:57:50 -0500 Yes, look at Hawaii - their native plants are endangered because of all the foreign plant material, reptiles, birds, fish?and animals?that have com into the state illegally.? On every flight you have to listen to the informational video and sign a form saying that you are not bringing any plant material or critters in - and then it is difficult to bring anything out unless you make the trip to the Ag Inspection Station and have everything sprayed and inspected, boxed and sealed. In Arizona we are trying to rid the desert of the dread buffelgrass.? It is a menace.? I am sure there are many reasons to want to inspect what is coming in to the country.? It may be a pain to fill out paperwork but I am all for it if it means keeping noxious plants out.? KUDZU! A few years ago I added citrus to my plant interests, and that really opened my eyes to importation problems.? Citrus greening and canker has almost wiped out the citrus industry, and you can no longer buy trees from Florida, parts of Texas, South Carolina, Louisiana, etc.? The insect vector for greening was not known in this country prior to 1989, and almost certainly came to the US via smuggled citrus plants (it is illegal to import citrus to the US). Susan From oothal@hotmail.com Sun Jan 25 23:06:48 2009 Message-Id: From: Justin Smith Subject: [BULBS-L] Importing Bulbs and Seeds Date: Sun, 25 Jan 2009 22:06:47 -0600 Hi all this here is just for JIM I said: One important things to remember about the "small lot of seed" program is that it is just that a "SMALL" lot of seed, thats 50 seed or less. If you import 51 seed it is suppose to have a phyto. Bummer huh. Please insert the words "per pack" after the word "less" and before the period. I hope Jim will forgive me this most tragic of mistakes. I was thinking the word "pack" but my fingers can type just too darn fast. Justin Woodville, TX 75979 _________________________________________________________________ Windows Live™ Hotmail®…more than just e-mail. http://windowslive.com/howitworks?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_t2_hm_justgotbetter_howitworks_012009 From MSRigg@pacbell.net Sun Jan 25 23:13:45 2009 Message-Id: <2F984F0CC9424C73B9D321292DE2F4D1@D3GDYZ71> From: "Alex Rigg" Subject: New member, request for lachanalia, offer of plants Date: Sun, 25 Jan 2009 20:13:44 -0800 Hi, Topics: 1. New member 2. Plants for cost of postage 3. Requested plants 4. Lovely Lachenalia hybrid. 1. New member I joined the group a few months ago to learn more about South African bulbs in particular. I live in Berkeley, California, USA, and have Amaryllis belladona, Babiana, Canna (not sure of variety, but one may be 'Ra' and the other indica. Both are yellow. The one that might be Ra grows to 8' tall, the other to 4-5'. Both have yellow flowers. The shorter one has flowers that are mainly yellow, but contain some sections that are white with yellow splotches), Crinum, possibly bulbispermum, Freesia (alba, I think, it's white with a yellow spot and is fragrant), Hyacincth (yellow, not sure of species), bearded Iris (pale blue, fragrant) , Iris pallida 'Aureavariegata', Ixia maculata (might have given away), Lachanalia (splendida, unicolor, viridiflora), Ledebouria socialis, some other unidentified ledebouria, Muscari armeniacum, Narcissus tazetla `Paper White', Sisyrinchium bellum (if that's a bulb), Zantedeschia aethiopica, and Z. aethiopica 'Green Goddess'. 2. Plants in exchange for postage Unfortunately I'm going to drop out because I'm too stressed for time. I haven't even managed to read most of the emails. Before I do, I'd like to offer some of my bulbs, tubers, corms, whatever to members of the group in exchange for the cost of postage or bulbs I'm interested in (see Item 4 below). I've never exported plants, but am willing to do so if you're willing to prepare the paperwork for me. I can share the following: Amaryllis belladona Canna (not sure of variety, but one may be 'Ra' and the other indica. Both are yellow. The one that might be Ra grows to 8' tall, the other to 4-5'. Both have yellow flowers. The shorter one has flowers that are mainly yellow, but contain some sections that are white with yellow splotches) Crinum, possibly bulbispermum (a few) Freesia (alba, I think; it's white with a yellow spot and is fragrant) bearded Iris (pale blue, fragrant) Iris pallida 'Aureavariegata' (a few) Ledebouria socialis Narcissus tazetla `Paper White', Sisyrinchium bellum (if that's a bulb) Zantedeschia aethiopica If you're interested, please let me know. 3. Requested plants: I am interested in obtaining some of these bulbs (not seeds): Lachenalia that is a hybrid of L. viridiflora and aloides quadricolor. Lachenalia aloides var .quadicolor Lachenalia bulbifera Lachenalis namaquensis Lachenalia pustutata (pink/purple and blue/purple forms) Lachenalia unifolia Orthrosanthus chimboracensis 4. Lovely Lachenalia hybrid I just saw a plant which, I was told, was a hybrid of Lachenalis aloides v. quadricolor (or L. orchidioides) and L. viridiflora which had large purple/blue flowers, short stamens (nonexserted). If anyone is interested in hybridizing, they might want to try this hybrid. The plant wasn't for sale. I already asked. Alex From wpoulsen@pacbell.net Mon Jan 26 03:06:16 2009 Message-Id: <497D6EC0.1060109@pacbell.net> From: Lee Poulsen Subject: New member, request for lachanalia, offer of plants Date: Mon, 26 Jan 2009 00:05:20 -0800 If this is the same hybrid I lusted after until I found it, it's called Lachenalia 'Rupert'. I never knew what its lineage was. To me it looked like a bluish purple version of L. bulbifera. It was available in Europe first, but I've noticed that more mail order nurseries are starting to carry it here in the U.S. as well. For example, I know that Brent & Becky's has carried it for a couple of years. It's pretty amazing looking, especially if you're not a species purist. --Lee Poulsen Pasadena, California, USDA Zone 10a Alex Rigg wrote: > 4. Lovely Lachenalia hybrid > > I just saw a plant which, I was told, was a hybrid of Lachenalis aloides v. quadricolor > > (or L. orchidioides) and L. viridiflora which had large purple/blue flowers, short > > stamens (nonexserted). > > If anyone is interested in hybridizing, they might want to try this hybrid. The plant > > wasn't for sale. I already asked. > > Alex > > From aley_wd@mac.com Mon Jan 26 04:24:48 2009 Message-Id: <47952768548269965623171793706640152117-Webmail@me.com> From: WDA Subject: [BULBS-L] Importing Bulbs and Seeds Date: Mon, 26 Jan 2009 04:24:40 -0500 Ellen, The numbers you request of DHS inspections refer to articles of fruits and vegetables and cut flowers. Propagative plant material goes to a Plant Inspection Station. I find it ironic that what started off as providing information about being aware of the import regulations to legally trade plant material internationally for members of this group. Which has turned into the justification to bypass the system because you can get away with bypassing the system because it's so overloaded to care about small importers like members of this group. Except some are actually nursery owners who sell and buy plant material commercially. I currently do not engage in the business of buying and selling plant material in the international market. I have an import permit and I make every effort to ensure that my purchases comply with the permit. The government assumes that the price of getting caught for a large plant broker is not worth their risk consequently when an exporter fails to meet the requirements the importer pays for that failure. Individuals who believe that the law of averages and the plant pest pathways do not apply to them are often willing to take on that risk. What do they have to fear? The believe that they are too small for the Government to care about what they do? After-all it wouldn't be on their plant material since individually they are smarter than the government hacks who can't get a job in the real world. I guess if the question your friend brought up about inadequacy of inspectors in The Czech Republic and since they are not part of that process, then the only experience would be based upon the work they have observed in their own work place. Usually false phytos are the result of individuals bypassing their own system - for a variety of reasons, usually financial. It is not that the government lacks the ability to inspect, rather that the government lacks the ability to prevent false documents. When it comes to 5% or 100% of commodities being inspected. I will not give you a number because there is no way to estimate it. Some people I've met do a real good job at what they do. Because they believe in what they do. Some people have priorities elsewhere. The result is the perception of how important the problem really is. As people who like rare and unusual plant material, I believe we have a responsibility to make sure that the possibilities for the exchange of domestic plant pests is maintained to a minimum. There is always a risk. When an inspector looks at a shipment we assume that they have been trained to some degree to recognize what should not be there. The Phyto offers a degree of certainty that apparently no pests are present. Within any system out of 100% the ends of the curve are where the deviations tend to be observed. For most of the sampling it complies with the objective. When PPQ inspects the inspectors follow sampling protocols, hyper-geometric sampling it's referred to. Lets face it, do you really want he government to inspect 100% of every shipment that comes into the USA? Because if you thought it was a back log now just imagine how long it would take to get the job done with smaller government and more inspections. TNC wants all plant imports to be placed into a mandatory 2 year post entry program similar to New Zealand's program. What I am advocating is that as individuals who like rare and unusual plants, we should be aware of the rules and regulations so our plants are not the ones stopped for lack of documentation. Have a certain level of responsibility to ensure that we do not become part of the movement of alien plant pests. Because a North American native or introduced pest would be viewed as an alien plant pest in another country. As a group I believe that we should hold ourselves to a high level of compliance because we do value those plants that are not commonplace in our own environments. Justifying the reason's why one should be able to get around they system becomes more of part of the problem than part of the solution. Actually PPQ focuses it's resources not on where the largest volume of imports are but on the largest and most frequent source of plant pests and the potential for introduction of those pests. And it's not our money. It's the US tax payers money. Last time I checked it's rather expensive paying for two wars and bailing out the economy. So who will be paying for all of these services to inspect? Probably in the future it will be all importers. Universally what is now a free service will probably have a fee. Imagine if every import permit had a $300 fees associated with it and every phytosanitary certificate actually reflected the cost of issuing it? And every new plant pest introduction's clean up effort was placed on the individual who introduced the pest. Then ask how would that be enforced? Perhaps any shipment lacking in the right documentation or not paying the fee would be destroyed or refused entry into the USA. This group is part of the international movement of plant material. Often locally grown and pretty much organic with minimal IPM standards. A domestic pest in one country becomes an alien pest in another. Commercial growers focus on regular pesticide applications and plant material common enough to have minimal pests associated with it. Where do you think the pest risk is? I can guarantee you that at least one person within the PPQ chain of command somewhat at the level of effecting change to the regulations is participating with this group. Take advantage of the resources at your disposal. In all honesty for regulatory officials no international trade is the best exclusion policy. Then no plants need be inspected, no pests introduced and anyone caught smuggling would be held accountable. But that is not the world we live in, nor how we regulated trade. I guess I'd like to see members of this group state that they have mastered the red tape and systems to ensure that they are not the ones who introduce plant pests. But then maybe I am assuming too much from plant collectors that they would actually accept a statement that the phyto is not worth the paper it's written on. Because if that was true we would be shutting down industries. Just look at the New Zealand cut flower movement into California. First interception of LBAP and the entire industry was forced to comply with a higher level of red tape. The information about how to do this is available, today more than ever before. Just google it and chances are you'll find the information. The hard part for most people is reading regulations because they are cumbersome and full of legal stuff. Too complex to understand. Most people don't even take the time to read their own permits. That is based on the call I receive to the surprise that their shipments out of all the people who import is being destroyed and it's unfair that they are singled out for being non compliant when everyone else is getting away with it. Just be aware of the rules and regulations and don't assume that you are so important and outside the possibility of being part of the problem that you'll not get caught eventually. Last I checked this is a public forum and anyone can participate. If you want to be anonymous don't list your private information, and if you do and you brag about how you've bypassed the system. Don't be surprised if a State or Federal Officer knocks at your door to ask you a few questions. You don't see petty thieves bragging about what they get away with on the internet do you? How do you suppose enforcemnt officials gather information, be aware of what is written on a public forum it doesn't go away when you hit send and it's hard to recall back. It only takes one person to create a movement and the strength of the movement can create change. As plant collectors in a public forum we should collectively be worried about those individuals who do not advocate to the legal method of plant importation. If we police ourselves then there is less tendency for the government to do it for us. I for one do not want to have my narcissus bulbs die away because of a plant pest native to the origins of the plant material. Nor would I want my neighbor to introduce plant pests across the fence because it's cheaper and easier to bypass the system. I certainly would not buy from a nursery that advocates by passing the system. But that's just me. One person. Bill From Roth@ukzn.ac.za Mon Jan 26 07:56:50 2009 Message-Id: <497DCF14.2298.0024.0@ukzn.ac.za> From: "Rogan Roth" Subject: Crinum stuhlmannii Date: Mon, 26 Jan 2009 14:56:29 +0200 New to the PBS wiki - information and photos of Crinum stuhlmannii: http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki/index.php/CrinumSpeciesFour Please find our Email Disclaimer here: http://www.ukzn.ac.za/disclaimer/ From markmazerandfm13@earthlink.net Mon Jan 26 08:06:30 2009 Message-Id: <262105.1232975190058.JavaMail.root@mswamui-andean.atl.sa.earthlink.net> From: Mark Mazer Subject: New member, request for lachanalia, offer of plants Date: Mon, 26 Jan 2009 08:06:29 -0500 (GMT-05:00) > >I am interested in obtaining some of these bulbs (not seeds): >Lachenalia that is a hybrid of L. viridiflora and aloides quadricolor. >Lachenalia aloides var .quadicolor >Lachenalia bulbifera >Lachenalis namaquensis >Lachenalia pustutata (pink/purple and blue/purple forms) >Lachenalia unifolia >Orthrosanthus chimboracensis > I can help you with all of the requested Lachenalia. Email me privately in July. Mark Mazer Hertford, North Carolina From jimmckenney@jimmckenney.com Mon Jan 26 08:54:24 2009 Message-Id: <000001c97fbe$1d7d3b30$2f01a8c0@Library> From: "Jim McKenney" Subject: [BULBS-L] Importing Bulbs and Seeds Date: Mon, 26 Jan 2009 08:58:05 -0500 Yes, Justin, I forgive you. And just to show how magnanimous I can be, I’ll admit that I omitted a detail of the seed count issue which might be of interest to certain people. The rules give prospective importers a choice between counting seeds and weighing seeds. Thus, each pack can contain up to 50 seeds or 10 grams of seed of one taxon per packet. That should make it easier for everyone to deal with tiny seeds such as poppy, petunia and begonia seeds. Now to figure out how to weigh a ten gram unit… Jim McKenney jimmckenney@jimmckenney.com Montgomery County, Maryland, USA, 39.03871º North, 77.09829º West, USDA zone 7 My Virtual Maryland Garden http://www.jimmckenney.com BLOG! http://mcwort.blogspot.com/ Webmaster Potomac Valley Chapter, NARGS Editor PVC Bulletin http://www.pvcnargs.org Webmaster Potomac Lily Society http://www.potomaclilysociety.org From ezeizabotgard@hotmail.com Mon Jan 26 10:15:29 2009 Message-Id: From: Alberto Castillo Subject: New member, request for lachanalia, offer of plants Date: Mon, 26 Jan 2009 15:15:22 +0000 "I am interested in obtaining some of these bulbs (not seeds): > Orthrosanthus chimboracensis" Hi: Orthrosanthus is not a bulb, more like any other garden plant in appearance. It must be started from seed or either obtained as a potted plant. Regards _________________________________________________________________ Disfruta los mejores contenidos en MSN Video http://video.msn.com/?mkt=es-xl From ksayce@willapabay.org Mon Jan 26 10:48:36 2009 Message-Id: <3049DC50-D345-4C72-8B8F-591106DB2618@willapabay.org> From: Kathleen Sayce Subject: Importing Bulbs and Seeds Date: Mon, 26 Jan 2009 07:48:03 -0800 Count me in on doing the responsible thing. And thanks for your comments on fungi. People forget that cryptic hitchhikers are everywhere! I have been asked to send seeds out of the country by people who planned to skip the import process. I don't do it. I live in a beautiful corner of the world, yet still a corner that deals with noxious weeds, many introduced accidentally, in upland and aquatic areas. I love to garden, but when I bring a new plant in, I have to ask myself: What if this one becomes the next gorse infestation? Or spartina? Or curly pondweed? Or a carnivorous earthworm that will eat the native earthworms. It's just not worth the risk. Let's set a trend and be responsible, and share seeds legally. Kathleen From voltaire@islandnet.com Mon Jan 26 11:23:50 2009 Message-Id: From: Diane Whitehead Subject: Importing Bulbs and Seeds Date: Mon, 26 Jan 2009 08:23:09 -0800 It was stated that a Czech phyto is not to be trusted. I have only bought plants there once, and had them inspected in Prague. When I arrived home, every plant was unwrapped and inspected carefully at the airport, and every one passed inspection. Diane Whitehead Victoria, B.C., Canada From hornig@earthlink.net Mon Jan 26 11:54:34 2009 Message-Id: <5B8D7773BFCA475CACE1CC3CA4F8F3B0@ellenPC> From: "Ellen Hornig" Subject: Importing Bulbs and Seeds Date: Mon, 26 Jan 2009 12:00:18 -0500 Diane - it was an APHIS inspector who told me that about Czech phytos (a voice on the phone) - I have no independent information. It was a response to my question about why plants coming in with a valid phyto needed to be reinspected. At the risk of exhausting my welcome, I want to make some (ultimately) positive remarks about this question of regulating and inspecting plant imports. I do have to say, first, that it appears the system doesn't function too well. Incoming legal plant material appears to be going largely uninspected, despite the apparent fact that foreign export regulation (issuing of phytos) is at best an uneven process. Incoming illegal imports probably largely go undetected, because the first line of defense - identifying a package that needs inspection - presumably depends on the US postal and Customs services doing their jobs with greater zeal than, say, Debbie's informant says they do. And if incoming illegal imports all became legal via the following of existing regulations (remember, import permits are free, though phytos usually are not), the system would be even more overwhelmed than it is. One tactic, which seems to be the currently preferred one, is to threaten people with large fines if they get caught. My previous life as an economist leads me to observe that the expected cost of smuggling is measured by multiplying the probability of getting caught by the fine levied if one is caught. Playing with some arbitrary numbers here, if the probability of getting caught is as high as 1% (I'm guessing it's much lower) and the expected fine is $2000, the expected penalty for smuggling is (.01)(2000) = $20, which renders the smuggling of a single plant borderline not-worthwhile - but if the probability of getting caught is 0.1%, the expected cost is only $2 (versus whatever the perceived value of the smuggled material is). A very high fine (say, $250,000) should definitely discourage small-time smuggling, but only if people know with certainty that it will be levied if they're caught - and from what I hear from the grapevine, penalties generally levied on individuals are much lower than that. The only people who are discouraged from smuggling by POSSIBLE high fines are the same types who won't fly, viz, people who are so terrified by the low-probability high-cost outcome that they don't look beyond that to see that the activity is (alas in the case of plants) relatively safe. The bottom line is that a positive, energetic, informative public education campaign is about your only rational line of defense when you're woefuly underfunded and understaffed. It's far more likely to get the attention of a rational individual than is threatening them with high fines - it appeals to their better natures, it's cheap, and it makes clear for them why what they're doing is wrong. And them's my thoughts this fine morning, and there I will end it. Ellen Ellen Hornig Seneca Hill Perennials 3712 County Route 57 Oswego NY 13126 USA www.senecahillperennials.com ----- Original Message ----- > pbs mailing list > pbs@lists.ibiblio.org > http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php > http://pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki From adam14113@ameritech.net Mon Jan 26 15:57:41 2009 Message-Id: <7D469932000D4B5F9C0E6E712BBCA4E7@FAMILY> From: "Adam Fikso" Subject: Importing Bulbs and Seeds Date: Mon, 26 Jan 2009 14:57:28 -0600 I like your thinking, Ellen.... which leads me to ask: What was wrong with the previous system? From where I sit it didn't require a difficult password which was hard to type, tedious registration, and the Department of Homeland Security which might be better used without the proliferation of rules and regs that seem to serve to no real purpose other than slowing down the system and making it more inefficient. Inspection of incoming parcels of plant materials with the green-and-yellow sticker as an alerting and directional device seemed to work well enough (from my point of view as the intended recipient--but maybe not.) The issue of inspecting contraband or its difficulty is not changed or ameliorated by my now having a password which I can't remember, and have difficulty typing even after I've written it down, because of the problem of shifting back and forth between characters. Further,plant inspection stations (if they were to follow the USPS law as previously done and intended -- a matter of precedent) , regarding shipment on to the recipient without additional cost seems to have fallen by the wayside for many California inspection stations. Postage was previously paid for serrvice to the recipient, not to the inspection station. The intervention by the inspection station, even though it is a governmental body, (actually a privatized service operating under contract) should not lead to ignoring or overriding that international postal agreement, even if it is doing so as an arm of Homeland Security. Making the recipient pay an additional fee does not seem justified as a matter of Homeland Security, for defense of our borders. But maybe we really are that broke. Dunno. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ellen Hornig" To: "Pacific Bulb Society" Sent: Monday, January 26, 2009 11:00 AM Subject: Re: [pbs] Importing Bulbs and Seeds > Diane - it was an APHIS inspector who told me that about Czech phytos (a > voice on the phone) - I have no independent information. It was a > response > to my question about why plants coming in with a valid phyto needed to be > reinspected. > > At the risk of exhausting my welcome, I want to make some (ultimately) > positive remarks about this question of regulating and inspecting plant > imports. I do have to say, first, that it appears the system doesn't > function too well. Incoming legal plant material appears to be going > largely uninspected, despite the apparent fact that foreign export > regulation (issuing of phytos) is at best an uneven process. Incoming > illegal imports probably largely go undetected, because the first line of > defense - identifying a package that needs inspection - presumably depends > on the US postal and Customs services doing their jobs with greater zeal > than, say, Debbie's informant says they do. And if incoming illegal > imports > all became legal via the following of existing regulations (remember, > import > permits are free, though phytos usually are not), the system would be even > more overwhelmed than it is. > > One tactic, which seems to be the currently preferred one, is to threaten > people with large fines if they get caught. My previous life as an > economist leads me to observe that the expected cost of smuggling is > measured by multiplying the probability of getting caught by the fine > levied > if one is caught. Playing with some arbitrary numbers here, if the > probability of getting caught is as high as 1% (I'm guessing it's much > lower) and the expected fine is $2000, the expected penalty for smuggling > is > (.01)(2000) = $20, which renders the smuggling of a single plant > borderline > not-worthwhile - but if the probability of getting caught is 0.1%, the > expected cost is only $2 (versus whatever the perceived value of the > smuggled material is). A very high fine (say, $250,000) should definitely > discourage small-time smuggling, but only if people know with certainty > that > it will be levied if they're caught - and from what I hear from the > grapevine, penalties generally levied on individuals are much lower than > that. The only people who are discouraged from smuggling by POSSIBLE high > fines are the same types who won't fly, viz, people who are so terrified > by > the low-probability high-cost outcome that they don't look beyond that to > see that the activity is (alas in the case of plants) relatively safe. > > The bottom line is that a positive, energetic, informative public > education > campaign is about your only rational line of defense when you're woefuly > underfunded and understaffed. It's far more likely to get the attention > of > a rational individual than is threatening them with high fines - it > appeals > to their better natures, it's cheap, and it makes clear for them why what > they're doing is wrong. > > And them's my thoughts this fine morning, and there I will end it. > > Ellen > > Ellen Hornig > Seneca Hill Perennials > 3712 County Route 57 > Oswego NY 13126 USA > www.senecahillperennials.com > ----- Original Message ----- >> pbs mailing list >> pbs@lists.ibiblio.org >> http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php >> http://pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki > > _______________________________________________ > pbs mailing list > pbs@lists.ibiblio.org > http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php > http://pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki From meneice@att.net Mon Jan 26 17:28:11 2009 Message-Id: <5CA453D3160A4D0D80724EF3D14E144F@DF5XS5C1> From: Subject: [BULBS-L] Importing Bulbs and Seeds Date: Mon, 26 Jan 2009 14:28:08 -0800 To: WDA and the rest of PBS I'm sure you are "right on", but lest we forget, do make an occasional noise to prick our consciences. Shirley Meneice -----Original Message----- From: pbs-bounces@lists.ibiblio.org [mailto:pbs-bounces@lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf Of WDA Sent: Sunday, January 25, 2009 6:18 PM To: Pacific Bulb Society Subject: Re: [pbs] [BULBS-L] Importing Bulbs and Seeds DHS inspects cut flowers, fruits and vegetables, generally admissible cargo. It's true that 75% of PPQ went to DHS and as I mentioned before they are more proactive when they catch singular violators. They have also begun holding the importer responsible for the condition of imports. I work for PPQ. Propagative plant material is inspected at a plant inspection station by PPQ inspectors. I'm not going to get into a discussion about what you get away with because the government is overburdened with trying to catch the bad guys. I was at the Lost Gardens of Heligan, a meeting at ground zero about Phytophthoria kernovii- at the end of the tour of the grounds the representative from UK's plant protection organization cautioned everyone about becoming vectors by not being responsible of foot ware because they probably have live spores on their clothing. If they were off to another garden they could possibly spread the spores and infect new gardens. The representative from Australia without hesitation took off her boots and threw them in the rubbish bin. Later she said that she did not want to be known in Australia as the person who brought P.k. to Australia. Better safe than sorry was her attitude.I took photos of a Rhododendron in the garden that was over 100 years old. Largest I'd ever see well over 20 feet tall and 150 feet wide. It was infested with P.k. They tried to save it. It was later ground up and incinerated. As the old beech trees and acers begin to die. How did the pathogen get there? We don't know. What we do know is that there are a lot of hosts for just that one disease. It only takes the right plant in the right place to begin an epidemic. Question is what steps will you go to to make sure that your not remembered as the person who brought a new plant pest into your neighborhood? I deal with people all the time who want special consideration and exceptions to import prohibited plant material into the USA because they have their own reason to posses stuff that the US prohibits. People brag about what plant material they smuggle into the US all the time. Because it's not like drugs or guns it can't hurt anybody. As if they would never be held accountable for introducing some exotic plant pest into the USA- you know stuff like med fly, bamboo rust, hosta virus X,amaryllis fly, phytophthorias, emerald ash borers, citrus long horn beetles, Asian gypsy moth and the list continues. The belief that US citizens have the right to bring anything into the country without checks and precautions keeps people like me employed cleaning up the environmental messes both from big businesses and individual importers. The rice panicle mite in Texas is a good example of Scientists thinking they knew everything and managed to introduce a rice pest with Mexican Paddy rice sown into the Texas rice belt. Or the collectors that went and gathered boxwood cutting in Greece and somehow managed to introduce a new boxwood rust into Longwood Gardens. So you go and do what you believe is your right to do. There are plenty of people who take a more responsible approach to the importation of foreign plant material who will work to clean up those messes and try to make the system work better. God knows that people thought they were doing the right thing with Kudsu. It is rather like the person who throws a cigarette butt on the ground when they are done with it. I guess they just believe that someone will pick it up eventually. _______________________________________________ pbs mailing list pbs@lists.ibiblio.org http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php http://pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki From jshields104@comcast.net Mon Jan 26 17:45:27 2009 Message-Id: <5.1.0.14.2.20090126174613.01d3dd50@mail.comcast.net> From: "J.E. Shields" Subject: Scadoxus longitubus and malabaricus Date: Mon, 26 Jan 2009 17:46:50 -0500 Scadoxus longitubus and malabaricus Is anyone familiar with these species? Can anyone provide me with pictures of them? Someone is planning a trip to their habitat, and would like pictures to assist him in finding the plants in nature. (No, not me; I'm staying home for awhile!) Jim Shields ************************************************* Jim Shields USDA Zone 5 Shields Gardens, Ltd. P.O. Box 92 WWW: http://www.shieldsgardens.com/ Westfield, Indiana 46074, USA Tel. ++1-317-867-3344 or toll-free 1-866-449-3344 in USA From djordan68@comcast.net Mon Jan 26 17:53:41 2009 Message-Id: <60843A7606F94B32A3C244835901382C@debbiePC> From: "Deborah Jordan" Subject: Importing Bulbs and Seeds Date: Mon, 26 Jan 2009 16:53:27 -0600 To All- As far as Debbie goes--I haven't traded seeds with anyone internationally in quite sometime. So if you wish to send federal agents to my house, WDA, that's your choice--but they are going to be wasting their time. I too am a state employee in the service of the taxpayer. I am also, however, a PBS member who does pay their dues on time (and has for some time) and always pays for their BX's promptly. Since I'm to be the subject of pure blasting for simply stating the obvious--I shall refrain from posting on the forum in the future. I never meant to cause such a "firestorm" and it definitely won't happen again. Debbie ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ellen Hornig" To: "Pacific Bulb Society" Sent: Monday, January 26, 2009 11:00 AM Subject: Re: [pbs] Importing Bulbs and Seeds > Diane - it was an APHIS inspector who told me that about Czech phytos (a > voice on the phone) - I have no independent information. It was a > response > to my question about why plants coming in with a valid phyto needed to be > reinspected. > > At the risk of exhausting my welcome, I want to make some (ultimately) > positive remarks about this question of regulating and inspecting plant > imports. I do have to say, first, that it appears the system doesn't > function too well. Incoming legal plant material appears to be going > largely uninspected, despite the apparent fact that foreign export > regulation (issuing of phytos) is at best an uneven process. Incoming > illegal imports probably largely go undetected, because the first line of > defense - identifying a package that needs inspection - presumably depends > on the US postal and Customs services doing their jobs with greater zeal > than, say, Debbie's informant says they do. And if incoming illegal > imports > all became legal via the following of existing regulations (remember, > import > permits are free, though phytos usually are not), the system would be even > more overwhelmed than it is. > > One tactic, which seems to be the currently preferred one, is to threaten > people with large fines if they get caught. My previous life as an > economist leads me to observe that the expected cost of smuggling is > measured by multiplying the probability of getting caught by the fine > levied > if one is caught. Playing with some arbitrary numbers here, if the > probability of getting caught is as high as 1% (I'm guessing it's much > lower) and the expected fine is $2000, the expected penalty for smuggling > is > (.01)(2000) = $20, which renders the smuggling of a single plant > borderline > not-worthwhile - but if the probability of getting caught is 0.1%, the > expected cost is only $2 (versus whatever the perceived value of the > smuggled material is). A very high fine (say, $250,000) should definitely > discourage small-time smuggling, but only if people know with certainty > that > it will be levied if they're caught - and from what I hear from the > grapevine, penalties generally levied on individuals are much lower than > that. The only people who are discouraged from smuggling by POSSIBLE high > fines are the same types who won't fly, viz, people who are so terrified > by > the low-probability high-cost outcome that they don't look beyond that to > see that the activity is (alas in the case of plants) relatively safe. > > The bottom line is that a positive, energetic, informative public > education > campaign is about your only rational line of defense when you're woefuly > underfunded and understaffed. It's far more likely to get the attention > of > a rational individual than is threatening them with high fines - it > appeals > to their better natures, it's cheap, and it makes clear for them why what > they're doing is wrong. > > And them's my thoughts this fine morning, and there I will end it. > > Ellen > > Ellen Hornig > Seneca Hill Perennials > 3712 County Route 57 > Oswego NY 13126 USA > www.senecahillperennials.com > ----- Original Message ----- >> pbs mailing list >> pbs@lists.ibiblio.org >> http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php >> http://pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki > > _______________________________________________ > pbs mailing list > pbs@lists.ibiblio.org > http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php > http://pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki From meenglis@meenglis.cts.com Mon Jan 26 18:28:08 2009 Message-Id: <497E4709.7030707@meenglis.cts.com> From: Marguerite English Subject: conversations are welcome here: was Importing Bulbs and Seeds Date: Mon, 26 Jan 2009 15:28:09 -0800 Dear Debbie and all. This forum is available to anyone who wishes to chat about topics of interest to anyone who loves bulbs and gardening with bulbs. If a firestorm occurs from your post, don't give up on the forum. Please continue to visit and to post. Even an occasional 'hot topic' teaches us all. Marguerite Deborah Jordan wrote: > To All- > As far as From djordan68@comcast.net Mon Jan 26 18:34:05 2009 Message-Id: <201E5CC5395E491DB6692D2ADFA2C174@debbiePC> From: "Deborah Jordan" Subject: conversations are welcome here: was Importing Bulbs and Seeds Date: Mon, 26 Jan 2009 17:33:54 -0600 Thanks Marguerite-- While still waiting down here for government men to actually show up (like FEMA for instance) so that we can hopefully get a new roof from hurricane IKE damage--being equated with a drug smuggler was definitely not appreciated. We definitely don't even have extra money to illegally or legally import seeds or bulbs at the present time. Thanks for your support! Debbie Houston, Texas ----- Original Message ----- From: "Marguerite English" To: "Pacific Bulb Society" Sent: Monday, January 26, 2009 5:28 PM Subject: Re: [pbs] conversations are welcome here: was Importing Bulbs and Seeds > Dear Debbie and all. > This forum is available to anyone who wishes to chat about topics of > interest to anyone who loves bulbs and gardening with bulbs. If a > firestorm occurs from your post, don't give up on the forum. Please > continue to visit and to post. Even an occasional 'hot topic' > teaches us all. Marguerite > > > > Deborah Jordan wrote: >> To All- >> As far as > > _______________________________________________ > pbs mailing list > pbs@lists.ibiblio.org > http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php > http://pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki From hornig@earthlink.net Mon Jan 26 18:35:04 2009 Message-Id: <1523799.1233012903293.JavaMail.root@mswamui-bichon.atl.sa.earthlink.net> From: Ellen Hornig Subject: Importing Bulbs and Seeds Date: Mon, 26 Jan 2009 18:35:03 -0500 (GMT-05:00) I said I'd said enough, but Debbie's posting puts me over the top. I mean honestly - this is America - why do we have government functionaries lurking on lists, making insinuating and bullying remarks to people like Debbie who merely post observations that the government isn't doing its job very effectively; and why do I have respectable people writing me privately and saying "be CAREFUL - this agency is a loose cannon, it doesn't play by any rules, and it will hurt you"? Lordy - we aren't talking about terrorists here - we're talking about plants. Pretty soon we'll be talking about McCarthyism, though. So glad I voted for Obama... Ellen, unrepentant -----Original Message----- >From: Deborah Jordan >Sent: Jan 26, 2009 5:53 PM >To: Pacific Bulb Society >Subject: Re: [pbs] Importing Bulbs and Seeds > >To All- >As far as Debbie goes--I haven't traded seeds with anyone internationally in >quite sometime. So if you wish to send federal agents to my house, WDA, >that's your choice--but they are going to be wasting their time. I too am a >state employee in the service of the taxpayer. > >I am also, however, a PBS member who does pay their dues on time (and has >for some time) and always pays for their BX's promptly. Since I'm to be the >subject of pure blasting for simply stating the obvious--I shall refrain >from posting on the forum in the future. I never meant to cause such a >"firestorm" and it definitely won't happen again. > >Debbie > Seneca Hill Perennials 3712 Co. Rt. 57 Oswego NY 13126 Phone: 315-342-5915 Fax: 315-342-5573 www.senecahillperennials.com From wpoulsen@pacbell.net Mon Jan 26 18:41:01 2009 Message-Id: <497E49DA.9000801@pacbell.net> From: Lee Poulsen Subject: [BULBS-L] Importing Bulbs and Seeds Date: Mon, 26 Jan 2009 15:40:10 -0800 Count me as one who would like to do the right thing all of the time. But it was interesting to read the discussion that accompanied the several entries in the Federal Register when the small seed lots permit was being brought into existence, and then see what resulted. One of the concerns or issues that kept being discussed was that the best enforcement method would be making it in the best interests of the importers to WANT to follow the rules. And one conclusion that was mentioned several times was that the best way to do this was to make it worth any rare plant growers while to exert a little effort to help APHIS/PPQ keep out pests to the fullest extent possible. It has been discussed here and in other forums over the years that no rare plant grower could conceivably want to import diseases or pests. They want their own plants to be as healthy as that of any commercial farmer or plant grower. No one wants their rare plants (or common ones for that matter) to get sick, die, or be eaten up. The discussers also acknowledged that the more expensive or more unnecessarily difficult they made the import process, the greater chance they created of causing importers to smuggle in something that was most likely safe, but not worth the money or red tape involved to do it the right way. We're not talking about plants that are already proven dangerous, but in many cases ones that have been imported before and pose no problem whatsoever. And even in the case of potentially dangerous plants, I think efforts have been made to put a process in place so that legitimate importing can be done. However, I have found the government to be as guilty of causing unnecessary problems as the importers might be. For example, someone mentioned citrus (and the associated citrus greening problem). I have liked growing citrus for many years. And I discovered that there is a process in place to get new species or varieties imported. There is a certain citrus variety I discovered during a trip to Japan. It was unlike anything I have ever seen available in the U.S. I searched everywhere for legitimate sources in the U.S. (and I'm pretty good at that) to no avail. Then I found out about the process. I submitted my request, sent various emails and regular emails out several times over several years, and to this date I have never gotten even an acknowledgment that any of my emails or mail had even been received, let alone a response or answer. Since then I've checked several times and gone on extensive Google hunts and discovered that others have wanted this variety imported and sent through the de-virusing process that California is charged with providing, also to no avail, and that someone somewhere finally decided to and managed to smuggle it in anyway. I am in no way defending that action. However, I feel justified in saying that the government agents or agencies involved have no one to blame but themselves. If they had just bothered to even respond once to any of these individuals, maybe to explain that it is impossible to import and give the reasons, then quite a few, possible everyone that wanted it, would not have thought about trying to smuggle it in. Since I myself never got a response, I have only been able to invent an explanation for the nonresponsiveness of the agencies involved. Because I have seen that they have been importing other varieties and they have all been, as far as I can tell, varieties that large commercial growers would be the most interested in, I have surmised that for some reason, the agency doesn't care about private individuals even though their charge is to serve everyone. The information I read was that anyone could request varieties that the agency should import. Since there is no charge, it can't be that the large commercial growers were able to pay the fees that individual requestors couldn't--since there were no fees involved. So in my own mind, I blame it on a very strong bias towards commercial growers by the gov't agencies to the point of ignoring individual or dooryard fruit growers. (And I've personally witnessed this attitude in a handful of other examples as well with other types of fruits, so my belief isn't completely unsupported). I think the process leading to, and the resulting rules for small seed lots import permits turned out pretty well. I try to use it every time I bring in seeds; however I can't control what the exporter does. There are a number of very legitimate exporters in other countries who have been exporting seeds to the U.S. and elsewhere for decades up until APHIS decided to enforce an available but unused restriction on unpermitted seed imports, who don't like the change, even as minimal as it has become. What I don't understand is that if the exporter fails to follow the rules, why must APHIS/PPQ resort to *destroying* the shipment? It is completely unneeded. And kind of ridiculous when it involves very rare species that really need to be grown by more people before they possibly go extinct. (For example, Worsleya procera.) Sure, some people live far away from inspection stations. But some of us don't. If they called me up, I would drive over and either pay to send it back to the importer or pay some nominal (not an outrageous fee like Australia charges) to have the inspectors look it over and check for the things the exporter was supposed to have checked for--especially for something rare and/or very hard to obtain. There really is no need whatsoever to destroy a non-dangerous import simply because some aspect of the import rules weren't followed correctly, but could be resolved safely at the inspection station at this end instead. Of course, then there are the plant items that are sent to (in my area) the Huntington or the San Diego or Los Angeles Zoos. In some cases, those places have never grown the item, and don't know how to. While there are some people on this list who are expert at growing them and getting them to thrive, even being some of the most knowledgable about it. But the gov't agencies don't seem to have that as one of the options they are willing to try. Why? What you're not ever ever going to do is get Americans, in particular, to stop wanting some non-dangerous plant species or variety that they really want to grow. I think every government agency should attempt to try to satisfy that as much as is reasonably possible, especially since all gov't agency employees are actually employees of the citizens who pay the taxes that pay their salaries. I have a hard time understanding why some agencies seem to not acknowledge that fact. My work is ultimately paid for by federal taxes, and we *always* keep that in mind. In fact, the entity I work for makes it a budget line item of every project we do to spend, I think it's 15 or 20%, on public outreach for every project we do, even though public outreach doesn't help us complete or accomplish any of the projects we do. We know where our money comes from and want the taxpayers to know and hopefully approve of what we're doing with their money always. I think you will find that virtually everyone in this group would be more than happy to try to come up with solutions that everyone including the agencies like APHIS/PPQ could be optimally happy with. (No one is ever going to get 100% of what they want of course. I acknowledge that.) As far as I have experienced all the plant people I've known want to do the right thing. They don't like when that is made prohibitively difficult or expensive for no good reason. --Lee Poulsen Pasadena, California, USDA Zone 10a WDA wrote: > It only takes one person to create a movement and the strength of the movement can create change. As plant collectors in a public forum we should collectively be worried about those individuals who do not advocate to the legal method of plant importation. If we police ourselves then there is less tendency for the government to do it for us. I for one do not want to have my narcissus bulbs die away because of a plant pest native to the origins of the plant material. Nor would I want my neighbor to introduce plant pests across the fence because it's cheaper and easier to bypass the system. I certainly would not buy from a nursery that advocates by passing the system. But that's just me. One person. > Bill > > From janemcgary@earthlink.net Mon Jan 26 19:05:50 2009 Message-Id: From: Jane McGary Subject: Verifying Zephyranthes names Date: Mon, 26 Jan 2009 16:05:39 -0800 Hi, I'm working on a cumulative index to the NARGS journal and am trying to verify the validity of the plant names that have been cited over a period of many years. Internet searches are sometimes helpful, sometimes not (the great annoyance is that Google almost always comes up with a certain set of almost entirely useless websites that seem to have a capability of plugging in any species name that is searched with a genus name they have filed, whether they have any information on that taxon or not). The genus Zephyranthes is particularly difficult to fathom, so I'd like someone who knows the current thinking to look at the list below and tell me which names are validly published and accepted at this time, and, I hope, the synonyms for those that are not. Can you help? An authority and date for valid names would be much appreciated. I marked the ones that seem particularly problematic with question marks. Zephyranthes atamasca Zephyranthes chichimeca Zephyranthes chlorosolen Zephyranthes citrina Zephyranthes drummondii Zephyranthes flavissima ? Zephyranthes grandiflora Zephyranthes insularum ? Zephyranthes jonesii Zephyranthes katherinae ? Zephyranthes lindleyana Zephyranthes longifolia Zephyranthes macrosiphon Zephyranthes morrisclintii ? Zephyranthes pulchella Zephyranthes refugiensis Zephyranthes reginae ? Zephyranthes rosea Zephyranthes simpsonii Zephyranthes smallii Zephyranthes texana = Habranthus tubispathus? Zephyranthes traubii Zephyranthes treatii = Z. atamasca var. treatii? Thank you! Jane McGary From ezeizabotgard@hotmail.com Mon Jan 26 19:18:48 2009 Message-Id: From: Alberto Castillo Subject: Verifying Zephyranthes names Date: Tue, 27 Jan 2009 00:18:38 +0000 Hi Jane: Do you have a copy of "Bulbs of North America"? Best Alberto> Date: Mon, 26 Jan 2009 16:05:39 -0800> To: pbs@lists.ibiblio.org> From: janemcgary@earthlink.net> Subject: [pbs] Verifying Zephyranthes names> > Hi,> I'm working on a cumulative index to the NARGS journal and am trying > to verify the validity of the plant names that have been cited over a > period of many years. Internet searches are sometimes helpful, > sometimes not (the great annoyance is that Google almost always comes > up with a certain set of almost entirely useless websites that seem > to have a capability of plugging in any species name that is searched > with a genus name they have filed, whether they have any information > on that taxon or not). The genus Zephyranthes is particularly > difficult to fathom, so I'd like someone who knows the current > thinking to look at the list below and tell me which names are > validly published and accepted at this time, and, I hope, the > synonyms for those that are not. Can you help? An authority and date > for valid names would be much appreciated. I marked the ones that > seem particularly problematic with question marks.> > Zephyranthes atamasca> Zephyranthes chichimeca> Zephyranthes chlorosolen> Zephyranthes citrina> Zephyranthes drummondii> Zephyranthes flavissima ?> Zephyranthes grandiflora> Zephyranthes insularum ?> Zephyranthes jonesii> Zephyranthes katherinae ?> Zephyranthes lindleyana> Zephyranthes longifolia> Zephyranthes macrosiphon> Zephyranthes morrisclintii ?> Zephyranthes pulchella> Zephyranthes refugiensis> Zephyranthes reginae ?> Zephyranthes rosea> Zephyranthes simpsonii> Zephyranthes smallii> Zephyranthes texana = Habranthus tubispathus?> Zephyranthes traubii> Zephyranthes treatii = Z. atamasca var. treatii?> > Thank you!> Jane McGary> > _______________________________________________> pbs mailing list> pbs@lists.ibiblio.org> http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php> http://pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki _________________________________________________________________ El doble de diversión: con Windows Live Messenger compartí fotos mientras charlas. http://www.microsoft.com/windows/windowslive/messenger.aspx From LucGBulot@aol.com Mon Jan 26 19:20:20 2009 Message-Id: <8CB4E2C0F5C83E8-1110-D56@webmail-dx09.sysops.aol.com> From: lucgbulot@aol.com Subject: : Verifying Zephyranthes names Date: Mon, 26 Jan 2009 19:19:31 -0500 Dear Jane, The right site to check those names is: www.ipni.org You will find all valid names with references to original authors and publications and often synonymies if a recent treatment of the taxa is avaqilable... Hope this help, Luc ________________________________________________________________________ Reçevez AOL Mail sur votre téléphone. Vos e-mails accessibles à tout moment! Créez un e-mail gratuit aujourd’hui. From djordan68@comcast.net Mon Jan 26 19:26:31 2009 Message-Id: <9635E31E5BD342F891F542C16412F1F0@debbiePC> From: "Deborah Jordan" Subject: Verifying Zephyranthes names Date: Mon, 26 Jan 2009 18:26:20 -0600 Hi Jane-- I probably grow more of them than most (they are perfectly suited for my climate). I've cut and pasted your list--anything with no comment is an accepted species. Zephyranthes atamasca > Zephyranthes chichimeca--I've never seen or heard of this one > Zephyranthes chlorosolen (native to TX) > Zephyranthes citrina > Zephyranthes drummondii (native to TX) > Zephyranthes flavissima --really a variation of Z citrina > Zephyranthes grandiflora > Zephyranthes insularum ?--this is a real species, I have it > Zephyranthes jonesii (native to TX) > Zephyranthes katherinae this is real and an accepted name > Zephyranthes lindleyana > Zephyranthes longifolia > Zephyranthes macrosiphon > Zephyranthes morrisclintii--this is a real species > Zephyranthes pulchella > Zephyranthes refugiensis--this is probaly a syn for Z jonesii (native to > TX) > Zephyranthes reginae --very common, also native to TX > Zephyranthes rosea > Zephyranthes simpsonii > Zephyranthes smallii--also native to TX > Zephyranthes texana = Habranthus tubispathus var texensi (bulbs of N > America book--this is what we call it in TX, there are 3 forms--H > tubispathus (yelloe) H tubispathus var roseus (kinda pink fading to > beigish-yellow), H tubispathus var texensi--very gold with pronounced > burnt orgish striations on the undersides 0of petals) > Zephyranthes traubii --native to TX too (I think) > Zephyranthes treatii = Z. atamasca var. treatii--a variation I've heard of > but not terribly familiar with, they aren't native here I have pics of almost all of these if you need them and am also a member of NARGS. Debbie Houston, TX ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jane McGary" To: "Pacific Bulb Society" Sent: Monday, January 26, 2009 6:05 PM Subject: [pbs] Verifying Zephyranthes names > Hi, > I'm working on a cumulative index to the NARGS journal and am trying > to verify the validity of the plant names that have been cited over a > period of many years. Internet searches are sometimes helpful, > sometimes not (the great annoyance is that Google almost always comes > up with a certain set of almost entirely useless websites that seem > to have a capability of plugging in any species name that is searched > with a genus name they have filed, whether they have any information > on that taxon or not). The genus Zephyranthes is particularly > difficult to fathom, so I'd like someone who knows the current > thinking to look at the list below and tell me which names are > validly published and accepted at this time, and, I hope, the > synonyms for those that are not. Can you help? An authority and date > for valid names would be much appreciated. I marked the ones that > seem particularly problematic with question marks. > > Zephyranthes atamasca > Zephyranthes chichimeca > Zephyranthes chlorosolen > Zephyranthes citrina > Zephyranthes drummondii > Zephyranthes flavissima ? > Zephyranthes grandiflora > Zephyranthes insularum ? > Zephyranthes jonesii > Zephyranthes katherinae ? > Zephyranthes lindleyana > Zephyranthes longifolia > Zephyranthes macrosiphon > Zephyranthes morrisclintii ? > Zephyranthes pulchella > Zephyranthes refugiensis > Zephyranthes reginae ? > Zephyranthes rosea > Zephyranthes simpsonii > Zephyranthes smallii > Zephyranthes texana = Habranthus tubispathus? > Zephyranthes traubii > Zephyranthes treatii = Z. atamasca var. treatii? > > Thank you! > Jane McGary > > _______________________________________________ > pbs mailing list > pbs@lists.ibiblio.org > http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php > http://pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki From LucGBulot@aol.com Mon Jan 26 19:28:27 2009 Message-Id: <8CB4E2D12906ED1-1110-DC1@webmail-dx09.sysops.aol.com> From: lucgbulot@aol.com Subject: : Re : Verifying Zephyranthes names Date: Mon, 26 Jan 2009 19:26:46 -0500 Hi again Jane, Just checked the first of the taxa you listed (Zephyrantes atamasca) and discovered it is an invalid name. Right spelling and author is: Zephyranthes atamasco (L.) Herb. -- App. [Bot. Reg.] 36. 1821 - orginaly described as Amaryllis atamasco L. Sp. Pl. 1: 292. 1753 [1 May 1753]. I believe that from there you can work out all other taxa. Luc -----E-mail d'origine----- De : lucgbulot@aol.com A : pbs@lists.ibiblio.org Envoyé le : Mardi, 27 Janvier 2009 1:19 Sujet : [pbs] Re : Verifying Zephyranthes names Dear Jane, The right site to check those names is: www.ipni.org You will find all valid names with references to original authors and publications and often synonymies if a recent treatment of the taxa is avaqilable... Hope this help, Luc ________________________________________________________________________ Reçevez AOL Mail sur votre téléphone. Vos e-mails accessibles à tout moment! Créez un e-mail gratuit aujourd’hui. From djordan68@comcast.net Mon Jan 26 19:31:23 2009 Message-Id: <3FE46D0F52FC4A22BD720D1B04012D32@debbiePC> From: "Deborah Jordan" Subject: Verifying Zephyranthes names Date: Mon, 26 Jan 2009 18:31:11 -0600 Also Howard has original cites in Bulbs for Warm Climates (at least most of these) asan additional source to Alberto's excellent recommendation. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Deborah Jordan" To: "Pacific Bulb Society" Sent: Monday, January 26, 2009 6:26 PM Subject: Re: [pbs] Verifying Zephyranthes names > Hi Jane-- > I probably grow more of them than most (they are perfectly suited for my > climate). I've cut and pasted your list--anything with no comment is an > accepted species. > > Zephyranthes atamasca >> Zephyranthes chichimeca--I've never seen or heard of this one >> Zephyranthes chlorosolen (native to TX) >> Zephyranthes citrina >> Zephyranthes drummondii (native to TX) >> Zephyranthes flavissima --really a variation of Z citrina >> Zephyranthes grandiflora >> Zephyranthes insularum ?--this is a real species, I have it >> Zephyranthes jonesii (native to TX) >> Zephyranthes katherinae this is real and an accepted name >> Zephyranthes lindleyana >> Zephyranthes longifolia >> Zephyranthes macrosiphon >> Zephyranthes morrisclintii--this is a real species >> Zephyranthes pulchella >> Zephyranthes refugiensis--this is probaly a syn for Z jonesii (native to >> TX) >> Zephyranthes reginae --very common, also native to TX >> Zephyranthes rosea >> Zephyranthes simpsonii >> Zephyranthes smallii--also native to TX >> Zephyranthes texana = Habranthus tubispathus var texensi (bulbs of N >> America book--this is what we call it in TX, there are 3 forms--H >> tubispathus (yelloe) H tubispathus var roseus (kinda pink fading to >> beigish-yellow), H tubispathus var texensi--very gold with pronounced >> burnt orgish striations on the undersides 0of petals) >> Zephyranthes traubii --native to TX too (I think) >> Zephyranthes treatii = Z. atamasca var. treatii--a variation I've heard >> of >> but not terribly familiar with, they aren't native here > > I have pics of almost all of these if you need them and am also a member > of > NARGS. > Debbie > Houston, TX > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Jane McGary" > To: "Pacific Bulb Society" > Sent: Monday, January 26, 2009 6:05 PM > Subject: [pbs] Verifying Zephyranthes names > > >> Hi, >> I'm working on a cumulative index to the NARGS journal and am trying >> to verify the validity of the plant names that have been cited over a >> period of many years. Internet searches are sometimes helpful, >> sometimes not (the great annoyance is that Google almost always comes >> up with a certain set of almost entirely useless websites that seem >> to have a capability of plugging in any species name that is searched >> with a genus name they have filed, whether they have any information >> on that taxon or not). The genus Zephyranthes is particularly >> difficult to fathom, so I'd like someone who knows the current >> thinking to look at the list below and tell me which names are >> validly published and accepted at this time, and, I hope, the >> synonyms for those that are not. Can you help? An authority and date >> for valid names would be much appreciated. I marked the ones that >> seem particularly problematic with question marks. >> >> Zephyranthes atamasca >> Zephyranthes chichimeca >> Zephyranthes chlorosolen >> Zephyranthes citrina >> Zephyranthes drummondii >> Zephyranthes flavissima ? >> Zephyranthes grandiflora >> Zephyranthes insularum ? >> Zephyranthes jonesii >> Zephyranthes katherinae ? >> Zephyranthes lindleyana >> Zephyranthes longifolia >> Zephyranthes macrosiphon >> Zephyranthes morrisclintii ? >> Zephyranthes pulchella >> Zephyranthes refugiensis >> Zephyranthes reginae ? >> Zephyranthes rosea >> Zephyranthes simpsonii >> Zephyranthes smallii >> Zephyranthes texana = Habranthus tubispathus? >> Zephyranthes traubii >> Zephyranthes treatii = Z. atamasca var. treatii? >> >> Thank you! >> Jane McGary >> >> _______________________________________________ >> pbs mailing list >> pbs@lists.ibiblio.org >> http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php >> http://pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki > > _______________________________________________ > pbs mailing list > pbs@lists.ibiblio.org > http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php > http://pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki From janemcgary@earthlink.net Mon Jan 26 19:39:28 2009 Message-Id: From: Jane McGary Subject: : Re : Verifying Zephyranthes names Date: Mon, 26 Jan 2009 16:39:11 -0800 Thanks to Deborah for her information. One problem an editor runs into is exemplified in her comments: People in a certain region (state, province) often prefer a name that appears in a local flora but is not accepted in the wider literature. This is particularly devilish when we turn to the Rocky Mountain area, but I think they're sorting it out now. As for whether it is Zephyranthes atamasca or atamasco, it is apparently controversial and I'm including both spellings in the index. I get both versions from writers in the area where it grows. The IPNI site recommended by Luc comes up quite slowly for me, and it's disappointing to wait and wait, and then find out the item searched is not on the site. I have discovered some really good resources in the process of this fact checking, though, such as LegumeWeb, a fast site with great information on the Fabaceae. The U.S. government site ITIS also is pretty fast, though a work in progress, and efloras.com is often helpful. Jane McGary From djordan68@comcast.net Mon Jan 26 19:46:08 2009 Message-Id: From: "Deborah Jordan" Subject: : Re : Verifying Zephyranthes names Date: Mon, 26 Jan 2009 18:45:32 -0600 If you can get it to work (sometimes problematic in itself) go to "google books and try Thad Howards 'Bulbs for Warm Climates'. I'll try to give you a link--we shall see if it works: http://books.google.com/books?id=9BvxFbG_jGsC&printsec=frontcover&dq=Bulbs+for+Warm+Climates go to right lower side and type in species. Sometimes it will let you link directly to a book--other times not. Debbie ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jane McGary" To: "Pacific Bulb Society" Sent: Monday, January 26, 2009 6:39 PM Subject: Re: [pbs] Re : Re : Verifying Zephyranthes names > Thanks to Deborah for her information. One problem an editor runs > into is exemplified in her comments: People in a certain region > (state, province) often prefer a name that appears in a local flora > but is not accepted in the wider literature. This is particularly > devilish when we turn to the Rocky Mountain area, but I think they're > sorting it out now. > > As for whether it is Zephyranthes atamasca or atamasco, it is > apparently controversial and I'm including both spellings in the > index. I get both versions from writers in the area where it grows. > > The IPNI site recommended by Luc comes up quite slowly for me, and > it's disappointing to wait and wait, and then find out the item > searched is not on the site. I have discovered some really good > resources in the process of this fact checking, though, such as > LegumeWeb, a fast site with great information on the Fabaceae. The > U.S. government site ITIS also is pretty fast, though a work in > progress, and efloras.com is often helpful. > > Jane McGary > > _______________________________________________ > pbs mailing list > pbs@lists.ibiblio.org > http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php > http://pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki From markmazerandfm13@earthlink.net Mon Jan 26 19:55:19 2009 Message-Id: <26847060.1233017718712.JavaMail.root@elwamui-cypress.atl.sa.earthlink.net> From: Mark Mazer Subject: PBS messages-taking it public Date: Mon, 26 Jan 2009 19:55:18 -0500 (GMT-05:00) Dear Mary Sue, This is very strong language to use regarding my message on Ms. Jordan's admitting that she broke the laws of the US. The point was that by publically admitting that she has skirted the laws puts at jeopardy the privileges of those who legally import seeds and bulbs. I know for a fact that there are esteemed members who support my position. You owe me an apology. Mark -----Original Message----- >From: Mary Sue Ittner >Sent: Jan 26, 2009 7:22 PM >To: Mark Mazer >Subject: PBS messages > >Dear Mark, > >Once again I ask you not to personally attack members of the PBS list and >drive them away. Thanks. > >Mary Sue > From djordan68@comcast.net Mon Jan 26 20:01:24 2009 Message-Id: <73AF020F22CB4C17882B092CC3664498@debbiePC> From: "Deborah Jordan" Subject: PBS messages-taking it public Date: Mon, 26 Jan 2009 19:01:13 -0600 I cut and paste my original message Mark--does it it ever once say that I broke the law? Or that I am simply aware that it is done? Careful reading often helps--but then again, I guess its easier to "hurl accusations". Perhaps it's you that owes me an apology. ORIGINAL CUT AND PASTE: I'm glad I live near the Port of Houston for receiving mail from overseas and that its one of the primary destinations for massive amounts of incoming and outgoing international mail. They are so overwhelmed, they just run the dogs along long conveyor belts and unless they hit on drugs or explosives, its good to go (A good friend of mine works there). ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mark Mazer" To: "Pacific Bulb Society" Sent: Monday, January 26, 2009 6:55 PM Subject: Re: [pbs] PBS messages-taking it public > Dear Mary Sue, > This is very strong language to use regarding my message on Ms. Jordan's > admitting that she broke the laws of the US. The point was that by > publically admitting that she has skirted the laws puts at jeopardy the > privileges of those who legally import seeds and bulbs. I know for a > fact that there are esteemed members who support my position. You owe me > an apology. > Mark > > -----Original Message----- >>From: Mary Sue Ittner >>Sent: Jan 26, 2009 7:22 PM >>To: Mark Mazer >>Subject: PBS messages >> >>Dear Mark, >> >>Once again I ask you not to personally attack members of the PBS list and >>drive them away. Thanks. >> >>Mary Sue >> > > _______________________________________________ > pbs mailing list > pbs@lists.ibiblio.org > http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php > http://pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki From markmazerandfm13@earthlink.net Mon Jan 26 20:21:47 2009 Message-Id: <5372445.1233019307399.JavaMail.root@elwamui-cypress.atl.sa.earthlink.net> From: Mark Mazer Subject: PBS messages-taking it public Date: Mon, 26 Jan 2009 20:21:47 -0500 (GMT-05:00) to "hurl accusations". >Perhaps it's you that owes me an apology. > >ORIGINAL CUT AND PASTE: >I'm glad I live near the Port of Houston for receiving mail from overseas >and that its one of the primary destinations for massive amounts of incoming >and outgoing international mail. They are so overwhelmed, they just run the >dogs along long conveyor belts and unless they hit on drugs or explosives, >its good to go (A good friend of mine works there). > You also wrote: -----Original Message----- >From: Deborah Jordan >Sent: Jan 26, 2009 5:53 PM >To: Pacific Bulb Society >Subject: Re: [pbs] Importing Bulbs and Seeds > >To All- >As far as Debbie goes--I haven't traded seeds with anyone internationally in >quite sometime. Therefore, you have traded seed internationaly, "glad" that it slips through a busy port. Quacks like a duck, walks like a duck, must be a duck. From djordan68@comcast.net Mon Jan 26 20:25:22 2009 Message-Id: <4DB7F24DED8B4442BCA6D1CEAEB7142A@debbiePC> From: "Deborah Jordan" Subject: PBS messages-taking it public Date: Mon, 26 Jan 2009 19:25:11 -0600 Fine Mark--you are rid of me now too. Anyone else you would like to eliminate from the PBS list while you are at it? I've received plenty of support from our esteemed members also. Debbie ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mark Mazer" To: "Pacific Bulb Society" Sent: Monday, January 26, 2009 7:21 PM Subject: Re: [pbs] PBS messages-taking it public > to "hurl accusations". >>Perhaps it's you that owes me an apology. >> >>ORIGINAL CUT AND PASTE: >>I'm glad I live near the Port of Houston for receiving mail from overseas >>and that its one of the primary destinations for massive amounts of >>incoming >>and outgoing international mail. They are so overwhelmed, they just run >>the >>dogs along long conveyor belts and unless they hit on drugs or explosives, >>its good to go (A good friend of mine works there). >> > You also wrote: > > > -----Original Message----- >>From: Deborah Jordan >>Sent: Jan 26, 2009 5:53 PM >>To: Pacific Bulb Society >>Subject: Re: [pbs] Importing Bulbs and Seeds >> >>To All- >>As far as Debbie goes--I haven't traded seeds with anyone internationally >>in >>quite sometime. > > Therefore, you have traded seed internationaly, "glad" that it slips > through a busy port. Quacks like a duck, walks like a duck, must be a > duck. > _______________________________________________ > pbs mailing list > pbs@lists.ibiblio.org > http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php > http://pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki From pandi_bear@bigpond.com Mon Jan 26 20:34:35 2009 Message-Id: <70AFE28E4E92443FBD6AEE63E479A1C3@Tiggy> From: "Carolyn Fra" Subject: Crinum stuhlmannii Date: Tue, 27 Jan 2009 12:33:33 +1100 What a beautiful Crinum, :o) That is gorgeous. Carolyn (Tasmania, Australia) -----Original Message----- From: pbs-bounces@lists.ibiblio.org [mailto:pbs-bounces@lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf Of Rogan Roth Sent: Monday, 26 January 2009 11:56 PM To: pbs@lists.ibiblio.org Subject: [pbs] Crinum stuhlmannii New to the PBS wiki - information and photos of Crinum stuhlmannii: http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki/index.php/CrinumSpeciesFour Please find our Email Disclaimer here: http://www.ukzn.ac.za/disclaimer/ _______________________________________________ pbs mailing list pbs@lists.ibiblio.org http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php http://pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki From zigur@hotmail.com Mon Jan 26 20:50:20 2009 Message-Id: From: Tim Harvey Subject: Importing Bulbs and Seeds Date: Mon, 26 Jan 2009 17:50:18 -0800 I am with Ellen here. I would like either: 1) a statement from William D. Alley stating that his presence on this list is purely for personal interest, and anything innocently disclosed here will never be used by him or any other representatives of any government agency, as a result of his actions, for any purpose. or 2) an apology from William D. Aley and his immediate unsubscription/removal from the list. If neither are possible I suggest that the PBS board needs to review its list membership policies. I have not searched the archives, but has WDA ever posted _anything_ not related to regulations? I suggest that members or administrators of other lists seriously consider whether there are other people 'lurking' in this way, and review the laws regarding entrapment. T> Date: Mon, 26 Jan 2009 18:35:03 -0500> From: hornig@earthlink.net> To: pbs@lists.ibiblio.org> Subject: Re: [pbs] Importing Bulbs and Seeds> > I said I'd said enough, but Debbie's posting puts me over the top. I mean honestly - this is America - why do we have government functionaries lurking on lists, making insinuating and bullying remarks to people like Debbie who merely post observations that the government isn't doing its job very effectively; and why do I have respectable people writing me privately and saying "be CAREFUL - this agency is a loose cannon, it doesn't play by any rules, and it will hurt you"? > > Lordy - we aren't talking about terrorists here - we're talking about plants. Pretty soon we'll be talking about McCarthyism, though. So glad I voted for Obama...> > Ellen, unrepentant From msittner@mcn.org Mon Jan 26 21:07:48 2009 Message-Id: <5.2.0.9.2.20090126175547.02ce57b8@mail.mcn.org> From: Mary Sue Ittner Subject: Membership in the pbs list Date: Mon, 26 Jan 2009 18:07:12 -0800 Dear Tim, Our list is open to anyone who has an interest in our topic. So anyone can join. The original PBS board gave me as the list administrator the option to remove someone from the list if I thought it necessary. I have not exercised that option yet. For the most part our list members have conducted themselves politely and responded to others in an helpful fashion. Since our list is a public list with all posts accessible online for anyone who wishes to search for them, everyone needs to think before they hit the send key. I am unable to remove any posts from the archives. And I suggest if a post makes anyone angry that they wait to respond and then read it again. It may not say exactly what you think it does. Telling members of this list about the requirements for importing seeds and bulbs would be useful information for those people who do not have it. It is also important to realize why there are rules. It also seems fair to share some of the problems with the current system. Without recognizing the problems, improvement won't be possible. Most important to me is that members of this list treat others with respect. If this list becomes a place where people trade angry emails, there will be a mass exodus and I think that would be very sad. Mary Sue PBS list administrator From jimmckenney@jimmckenney.com Mon Jan 26 21:23:10 2009 Message-Id: <001a01c98026$bb779a20$2f01a8c0@Library> From: "Jim McKenney" Subject: Importing Bulbs and Seeds Date: Mon, 26 Jan 2009 21:26:55 -0500 Oh my gosh - how this subject has provoked some people! Let's hope that at least some of the misunderstandings flying around are due to the notorious difficulty in expressing ourselves in what is in effect an email context. First, full disclosure time: I've met Bill Aley and sought his advice on some minor importation issues. The Bill Aley I met gave every impression of wanting to help me work within the system to achieve my goals. I found his suggestions to me surprisingly clever, not at all what one would get from someone satisfied to simply spout regulations. He not only demonstrated insight into the particular problems encountered by the small importer but evidenced a desire to help solve them. We should be glad that the Bill Aleys of the world are willing to take the time to be involved with us in working out these issues. Tim, I think your concerns about Bill or any other lurker spying on us are misplaced. You realize, don't you, that PBS postings are readily available to anyone Googling relevant topics? Everything you have ever posted is out there for anyone and everyone to see. If there are malicious interests determined to spy on us, they don't have to join the list to do so. This is such an important discussion to many of us that I'm sorry to see it flame. Let's try to get back to a civil discussion. I was very favorably impressed by some of what Ellen was posting, and I would be disappointed if she withdrew from this discussion, especially before some of the points she raised got the attention they deserve. At least we're not as bad as the crazies on YouTube who sometimes post inarticulate filth in response to their inability to make their points logically and with civility. Jim McKenney From zigur@hotmail.com Mon Jan 26 21:27:26 2009 Message-Id: From: Tim Harvey Subject: Importing Bulbs and Seeds Date: Mon, 26 Jan 2009 18:27:18 -0800 Thanks for your reply Jim, I would like to hear from Bill on the subject. I realise anyone can search the archives, but I believe you need to have subscribed to post, and once this happens there is the question of intent. I have simply requested clarification. T> From: jimmckenney@jimmckenney.com> To: pbs@lists.ibiblio.org> Date: Mon, 26 Jan 2009 21:26:55 -0500> Subject: Re: [pbs] Importing Bulbs and Seeds> > Oh my gosh - how this subject has provoked some people!> > Let's hope that at least some of the misunderstandings flying around are due> to the notorious difficulty in expressing ourselves in what is in effect an> email context. > > First, full disclosure time: I've met Bill Aley and sought his advice on> some minor importation issues. The Bill Aley I met gave every impression of> wanting to help me work within the system to achieve my goals. I found his> suggestions to me surprisingly clever, not at all what one would get from> someone satisfied to simply spout regulations. He not only demonstrated> insight into the particular problems encountered by the small importer but> evidenced a desire to help solve them. > > We should be glad that the Bill Aleys of the world are willing to take the> time to be involved with us in working out these issues. > > > Tim, I think your concerns about Bill or any other lurker spying on us are> misplaced. You realize, don't you, that PBS postings are readily available> to anyone Googling relevant topics? Everything you have ever posted is out> there for anyone and everyone to see. If there are malicious interests> determined to spy on us, they don't have to join the list to do so. > > This is such an important discussion to many of us that I'm sorry to see it> flame. Let's try to get back to a civil discussion. I was very favorably> impressed by some of what Ellen was posting, and I would be disappointed if> she withdrew from this discussion, especially before some of the points she> raised got the attention they deserve. > > At least we're not as bad as the crazies on YouTube who sometimes post> inarticulate filth in response to their inability to make their points> logically and with civility. > > Jim McKenney> > > > > > _______________________________________________> pbs mailing list> pbs@lists.ibiblio.org> http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php> http://pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki From ron_redding@hotmail.com Mon Jan 26 23:53:04 2009 Message-Id: From: Ronald Redding Subject: Exporting to the US Date: Tue, 27 Jan 2009 14:53:01 +1000 Hi Everyone I have some experience on this subject and actually sent a very derogitory message to Bill about US customs officials after his first message this wasn't directed at him or anyone individual however I just wanted to tell somebody how I felt about the US system and how I have found it to work (it was also very funny). I am one that would love to see this debate continue as the US system, from my point of view can only get better, it is woefully inadequate full of holes and I have absolutley no confidence in it at all. Hopefully US customs get to the top of the learning curve because right now from my perspective and also from some very good AQIS officials trained chimpazees could do a better job. Here in Australia all postal items are inspected however plant material that is not carried through the proper chanels can still occur and from my experience anything not correctly labelled is destroyed with no exception. I am delighted that somebody has actually come forward to represent a US government department as it is bringing it out into the public domain. Here is my story: I have several times, with some of the rarest plants you could imagine, tried to send them to the US. A US horticultural professor's knowledge and import permits and documentation were used from the US side. I went to several offices of the Australian Quaratine and Inpection Service to ensure I met all requirements from them and the US government, my home and greenhouses were inspected and audited before I was allowed to export anything. All correct paperwork and procedures were followed and it was wonderful! What a glorious thing I had passed all the tests and all plants were inspected and passed I was now able to offer some Amercan collectors some of the best worsleyas and bulbs available anywhere - that was before I made a US inpector get off his/her backside and do some work. I have had over 100 worsleyas destroyed and several other plants such as pamianthe and priophys destroyed because they had a Canadian Appletree blackspot that has only ever been found outside of Canada once (the Netherlands in case you were wondering). I have complained to AQIS and although very simpathytic to my cause, they have had many instances more recently and in particular in relation to the Wollimei Pine that for no aparent reason that they could see have been inpected in LA and destroyed often without even a reason or notification. My time my plants and most importantly my reputation has been damaged over and over again by US customs even when I have dotted every i and crossed every t. Over fifty times yes over fifty times I have labelled plants as plants in ordinary mail and with no paperwork had 100% delivery in very fast and efficient time even opened inpected and sent on! what no paperwork, opened, inspected and delivered well what do you know could have saved myself thousands without all that quarantine and inspection work and documentation. I am one who would be very happy to see the debate continue and to be able to have some confidence in the US importation process however right now it is probably one of the most unstable and unreliable systems I have ever had to deal with. I will always be happy to comply with the US requirements and I can not wait until somebody that inspects plants knows that they are living organisms that photosynthesis and can not possibly catch a disease from a country that they have not been in and that they also need to be from a particular family if a disease only afflicts that particular family. If you comply with a country's requirements and jump through all their hoops you would at least expect them to carry out their end of the bargain.Kind Regards and Best Wishes Ron Redding Hervey Bay Australia _________________________________________________________________ Twice the fun—Share photos while you chat with Windows Live Messenger. http://livelife.ninemsn.com.au/article.aspx?id=669758 From zigur@hotmail.com Mon Jan 26 23:58:54 2009 Message-Id: From: Tim Harvey Subject: Exporting to the US Date: Mon, 26 Jan 2009 20:58:40 -0800 Ron, That reminds me of a shipment of CITES plants - with all appropriate documentation - from Switzerland that was refused entry to the US because it did not have the appropriate EU certification. Just in case anyone does not get it, Switzerland is not in the EU ... How about the USDA get their own group for interested parties? T> From: ron_redding@hotmail.com> To: pbs@lists.ibiblio.org> Date: Tue, 27 Jan 2009 14:53:01 +1000> Subject: [pbs] Exporting to the US> > > Hi Everyone > > I have some experience on this subject and actually sent a very derogitory message to Bill about US customs officials after his first message this wasn't directed at him or anyone individual however I just wanted to tell somebody how I felt about the US system and how I have found it to work (it was also very funny). > > I am one that would love to see this debate continue as the US system, from my point of view can only get better, it is woefully inadequate full of holes and I have absolutley no confidence in it at all. Hopefully US customs get to the top of the learning curve because right now from my perspective and also from some very good AQIS officials trained chimpazees could do a better job. Here in Australia all postal items are inspected however plant material that is not carried through the proper chanels can still occur and from my experience anything not correctly labelled is destroyed with no exception.> > I am delighted that somebody has actually come forward to represent a US government department as it is bringing it out into the public domain. Here is my story:> > I have several times, with some of the rarest plants you could imagine, tried to send them to the US. A US horticultural professor's knowledge and import permits and documentation were used from the US side. I went to several offices of the Australian Quaratine and Inpection Service to ensure I met all requirements from them and the US government, my home and greenhouses were inspected and audited before I was allowed to export anything. All correct paperwork and procedures were followed and it was wonderful! What a glorious thing I had passed all the tests and all plants were inspected and passed I was now able to offer some Amercan collectors some of the best worsleyas and bulbs available anywhere - that was before I made a US inpector get off his/her backside and do some work.> > I have had over 100 worsleyas destroyed and several other plants such as pamianthe and priophys destroyed because they had a Canadian Appletree blackspot that has only ever been found outside of Canada once (the Netherlands in case you were wondering). > > I have complained to AQIS and although very simpathytic to my cause, they have had many instances more recently and in particular in relation to the Wollimei Pine that for no aparent reason that they could see have been inpected in LA and destroyed often without even a reason or notification. My time my plants and most importantly my reputation has been damaged over and over again by US customs even when I have dotted every i and crossed every t. Over fifty times yes over fifty times I have labelled plants as plants in ordinary mail and with no paperwork had 100% delivery in very fast and efficient time even opened inpected and sent on! what no paperwork, opened, inspected and delivered well what do you know could have saved myself thousands without all that quarantine and inspection work and documentation. > > I am one who would be very happy to see the debate continue and to be able to have some confidence in the US importation process however right now it is probably one of the most unstable and unreliable systems I have ever had to deal with. I will always be happy to comply with the US requirements and I can not wait until somebody that inspects plants knows that they are living organisms that photosynthesis and can not possibly catch a disease from a country that they have not been in and that they also need to be from a particular family if a disease only afflicts that particular family.> > If you comply with a country's requirements and jump through all their hoops you would at least expect them to carry out their end of the bargain.Kind Regards and Best Wishes Ron Redding Hervey Bay Australia> _________________________________________________________________> Twice the fun—Share photos while you chat with Windows Live Messenger.> http://livelife.ninemsn.com.au/article.aspx?id=669758 > _______________________________________________> pbs mailing list> pbs@lists.ibiblio.org> http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php> http://pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki From marie-paule.opdenakker@pandora.be Tue Jan 27 05:06:14 2009 Message-Id: <8674EB98431C438983BCC0691724AD9F@PCvanmpaule> From: "Marie-Paule" Subject: Membership in the pbs list Date: Tue, 27 Jan 2009 11:06:12 +0100 Hi Mary Sue, I agree with You completely, I am also a member of a Belgium forum cold exotenforum; that became also with attacking people personal, they change the forum name, respect is lately a forgotten thing Best Regards Marie-Paule Belgium ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mary Sue Ittner" To: Sent: Tuesday, January 27, 2009 3:07 AM Subject: [pbs] Membership in the pbs list > Dear Tim, > > Our list is open to anyone who has an interest in our topic. So anyone can > join. The original PBS board gave me as the list administrator the option > to remove someone from the list if I thought it necessary. I have not From info@auchgourishbotanicgarden.org Tue Jan 27 06:53:52 2009 Message-Id: <364C5243437942DE9E37CC40A25EC5FA@homepc> From: Subject: seed & plant importations Date: Tue, 27 Jan 2009 11:54:33 -0000 Ref Mat Sues' recent posting about striking people off. Your approach and tolerance takes you close to sainthood me thinketh. Ref the general subject of importations and exportations. I would not wish to comment as a non US citizen only to say that there is a very clear need to monitor and restrict pests and diseases being translocated around the world so readily now due to airfreight, the situation is truly frightening. As a former Forestry Consultant and Manager here in Scotland I am aware of quite a lot of background material in the literature and attend the annual Forest Commission Research meetings where all sorts of horror stories are brought to our notice. Phytophora sps have been with us widely but those which have newly arrived are doing untold damage not just in the western countries of Europe but also Sudden Oak death in the Pacific States of North America where whole forest ecosystems are irrevocably changing forever. Dutch Elm Disease, Great Spruce Bark Beetle and ever onwards. Recently due to my work with Lilium I have been approached by a Dutch company which wants us to grow bulbs for them in our squeaky clean Phyto situation apparently because the conditions in Holland are so contaminated now with virus, diseases, ground water nitrates, etc, etc. Some companies have been shipping their hybrid bulbs to China growing them on there and returning the bulbs, cut flowers, and many other nasties piggy back here into Europe and from their hubs in Holland radiate out east west north and south within the EU without impunity however because we are in a free trade area individual countries such as Scotland are unable to embargo imp[orts and before long we will be as contaminated as everywhere else except with those pests which cannot sustain themselves through out winters. If anyone wants to see how egregious an example can be of environmental contamination and degradation can be associated with just one single genus ornamental crop can be then go and visit and read the report on the cleanup after the Oregon Bulb Farm went belly up. Just type in Oregon Bulb Farm, on Google it comes up as #'s 2 or 3 This report is written by Oregon Department of Environmental Quality, I checked today, their report is dated 27th January 2009. It is mind boggling just how rapacious that former company operated, whether from true ignorance, or perceived necessity, in its use of chemicals. The whole point I am making is that these often highly toxic products were found "necessary" to treat viruses and diseases associated with lilies, in the main not one of which as I understand it, although I stand to be corrected, was native to the particular region of North America now know as Oregon and doubtfully it seems from my research to any areas contiguous with it on the eastern side of the Pacific, mostly all are endemic to the western [Asiatic] side. Admittedly there will always be the need to import plants, whether for research or commerical foundation stock, to do so without Phytosaniatary Certificates is abominably stupid and selfish even if admitting as i do that such docs are but a greased palm away and worth as much or less, using this route shows responsibility and if in doubt then quarantine, quarantine, quarantine, quarantine and treat appropriately with smoke, hot water and such few non toxic chemicals which remain available, not a lot admittedly but better than doing nothing. Here at Auchgourish Botanic Garden we have the highest percentage of any European B.G. of wild origin material grown from seed, including the much vaunted Royal Botanic Gardens at both Edinburgh and Kew [C.76%+) We have no disease or pests of which we are aware but don't know how long we can hold the line. If anyone is serious about their work, whether with geophytes or anything else, they cannot do better than work from seed, admittedly these will not help with inoculating the soils with appropriate 'aids to growth' and this is undoubtedly the slow route to production of flowers we all enjoy. However, if this route isn't always practical due to impatience or whatever, then set aside an area isolated from possible contamination of another and use it for quarantine; if this is not practical due to small area available to individuals or the proximity of neighbours, to who we all have a responsibility, then undertake sanitisation measures appropriate to the genus. Do nothing is not an option! For those lucky people in north America who do not yet have Lily beetle, be thankful, soon enough one of your neighbours will take a short cut, visit a regional show and bring it back for you. In that event, find another group of plants or break your heart. If anyone wonders how much good and useful a service PBS can be and achieve for those "less in the know" then this is a topic which ranks very highly in the advisory stakes and probably carries more weight than publicity from those agency employees who are alleged to "lurch or lurk" on the margins of PBS, it is in effect what they are paid to do with your tax dollars, not mine. Aphis is admittedly in some parts of the US staffed by some poorly educated people on this and related topics at the front of house level as I found out but when a few years ago forced to approach their organ Grinder in Chief and making her aware of certain issues, the matter and the people were dealt with, however as a rough and ready Highland Celt not genetically predisposed to dealing with the so called civil service I would be the first to admit at blind anger and frustration at times, by all means rail, f an blind but don't do the shortcut smart ass stuff a previous poster hinted at on the Gulf coast. There be idiots in the jungle! Iain -- I am using the free version of SPAMfighter. We are a community of 5.9 million users fighting spam. SPAMfighter has removed 45654 of my spam emails to date. Get the free SPAMfighter here: http://www.spamfighter.com/len The Professional version does not have this message From jonathanhutchinson@rhs.org.uk Tue Jan 27 07:01:34 2009 Message-Id: <67FCC990C7597E46BEB7E9818709230247A727@wismail.rhs.net> From: Subject: [BULK] Scadoxus longitubus and malabaricus Date: Tue, 27 Jan 2009 12:01:25 -0000 You should be able to come up with a picture longitubus through an old edition of Curtis's Botanical Magazine published by RBG Kew. The latter one I am not aware of possibly it is a synonym, but I am not aware of that The Norwegian Journal of Botany has produced the most recent works on Scadoxus by Prof's Nordal and Friss Hope this helps Jonathan National Collection of Scadoxus (NCCPG) -----Original Message----- From: pbs-bounces@lists.ibiblio.org [mailto:pbs-bounces@lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf Of J.E. Shields Sent: 26 January 2009 22:47 To: Pacific Bulb Society Subject: [BULK] [pbs] Scadoxus longitubus and malabaricus Importance: Low Scadoxus longitubus and malabaricus Is anyone familiar with these species? Can anyone provide me with pictures of them? Someone is planning a trip to their habitat, and would like pictures to assist him in finding the plants in nature. (No, not me; I'm staying home for awhile!) Jim Shields ************************************************* Jim Shields USDA Zone 5 Shields Gardens, Ltd. P.O. Box 92 WWW: http://www.shieldsgardens.com/ Westfield, Indiana 46074, USA Tel. 317-867-3344 or toll-free 1-866-449-3344 in USA _______________________________________________ pbs mailing list pbs@lists.ibiblio.org http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php http://pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki

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From theotherjen8@yahoo.com Tue Jan 27 10:13:29 2009 Message-Id: <857251.58063.qm@web51707.mail.re2.yahoo.com> From: Jennifer Hildebrand Subject: The Bulb Garden... running late Date: Tue, 27 Jan 2009 07:11:57 -0800 (PST) Hi all,   Just a quick note to let you know that we're running a little behind on this quarter's The Bulb Garden.  It is completely my fault - I'm afraid these real-world (paying!) jobs sometimes get in the way of our volunteer activities.  You can expect to see it about two weeks later than usual.  I'm just about to submit my last reappointment folder before going up for tenure, and so I've been working hard to make sure that it looks extra-good.  Of course, once I have tenure, I can ignore all of my work-related responsibilities and devote all of my time to PBS...  Just kidding!  I could never do that, no matter how much I enjoy my work for PBS.    Thanks for your understanding, and thanks for your support of PBS. Jennifer Co-editor, The Bulb Garden From eagle85@flash.net Tue Jan 27 12:04:55 2009 Message-Id: <9494A143-02E8-4634-8E64-8634CA41653E@flash.net> From: Douglas Westfall Subject: current bickering Date: Tue, 27 Jan 2009 09:04:47 -0800 To quote one recent "bickering" participant (now facing jail time) "Can't we all just get along?" Doug From fbiasella@watertownsavings.com Tue Jan 27 12:14:42 2009 Message-Id: <319178D83AE94BC7933B0461000058C6@wsbmain.net> From: "Fred Biasella" Subject: current bickering Date: Tue, 27 Jan 2009 12:14:01 -0500 Amen!!!!!! -----Original Message----- From: pbs-bounces@lists.ibiblio.org [mailto:pbs-bounces@lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf Of Douglas Westfall Sent: Tuesday, January 27, 2009 12:05 PM To: Pacific Bulb Society Subject: [pbs] current bickering To quote one recent "bickering" participant (now facing jail time) "Can't we all just get along?" Doug _______________________________________________ pbs mailing list pbs@lists.ibiblio.org http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php http://pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki From hornig@earthlink.net Tue Jan 27 12:31:57 2009 Message-Id: From: "Ellen Hornig" Subject: Importing Bulbs and Seeds Date: Tue, 27 Jan 2009 12:37:53 -0500 Since I'm responsible for some of the bickering, I do apologize, but I also hope that people will continue to discuss their experiences with plant and seed import regulations, because there are lessons to be learned therein, both for users and for regulators. We should appreciate that the fact that we have a resource like Bill (WDA) on the list, who can, I hope, respond to some of these postings in a helpful manner. Ellen Ellen Hornig Seneca Hill Perennials 3712 County Route 57 Oswego NY 13126 USA www.senecahillperennials.com From butterflyamaryllis@yahoo.com Tue Jan 27 13:25:59 2009 Message-Id: <164086.36890.qm@web33908.mail.mud.yahoo.com> From: James Frelichowski Subject: [BULBS-L] Importing Bulbs and Seeds Date: Tue, 27 Jan 2009 10:25:56 -0800 (PST) People like you that comply with APHIS, etc. are keeping our Agriculture and Horticulture safe.  I had to spend half a year explaining to a new APHIS officer the need for renewing the same permit (that has been used for 30 years) for our cotton germplasm operations.  They have their rules to follow and can't make exceptions without them naming the choices.    Be patient and do your part to keep our plants safe!   James Frelichowski     --- On Mon, 1/26/09, Lee Poulsen wrote: From: Lee Poulsen Subject: Re: [pbs] [BULBS-L] Importing Bulbs and Seeds To: "Pacific Bulb Society" Date: Monday, January 26, 2009, 3:40 PM Count me as one who would like to do the right thing all of the time. But it was interesting to read the discussion that accompanied the several entries in the Federal Register when the small seed lots permit was being brought into existence, and then see what resulted. One of the concerns or issues that kept being discussed was that the best enforcement method would be making it in the best interests of the importers to WANT to follow the rules. And one conclusion that was mentioned several times was that the best way to do this was to make it worth any rare plant growers while to exert a little effort to help APHIS/PPQ keep out pests to the fullest extent possible. It has been discussed here and in other forums over the years that no rare plant grower could conceivably want to import diseases or pests. They want their own plants to be as healthy as that of any commercial farmer or plant grower. No one wants their rare plants (or common ones for that matter) to get sick, die, or be eaten up. The discussers also acknowledged that the more expensive or more unnecessarily difficult they made the import process, the greater chance they created of causing importers to smuggle in something that was most likely safe, but not worth the money or red tape involved to do it the right way. We're not talking about plants that are already proven dangerous, but in many cases ones that have been imported before and pose no problem whatsoever. And even in the case of potentially dangerous plants, I think efforts have been made to put a process in place so that legitimate importing can be done. However, I have found the government to be as guilty of causing unnecessary problems as the importers might be. For example, someone mentioned citrus (and the associated citrus greening problem). I have liked growing citrus for many years. And I discovered that there is a process in place to get new species or varieties imported. There is a certain citrus variety I discovered during a trip to Japan. It was unlike anything I have ever seen available in the U.S. I searched everywhere for legitimate sources in the U.S. (and I'm pretty good at that) to no avail. Then I found out about the process. I submitted my request, sent various emails and regular emails out several times over several years, and to this date I have never gotten even an acknowledgment that any of my emails or mail had even been received, let alone a response or answer. Since then I've checked several times and gone on extensive Google hunts and discovered that others have wanted this variety imported and sent through the de-virusing process that California is charged with providing, also to no avail, and that someone somewhere finally decided to and managed to smuggle it in anyway. I am in no way defending that action. However, I feel justified in saying that the government agents or agencies involved have no one to blame but themselves. If they had just bothered to even respond once to any of these individuals, maybe to explain that it is impossible to import and give the reasons, then quite a few, possible everyone that wanted it, would not have thought about trying to smuggle it in. Since I myself never got a response, I have only been able to invent an explanation for the nonresponsiveness of the agencies involved. Because I have seen that they have been importing other varieties and they have all been, as far as I can tell, varieties that large commercial growers would be the most interested in, I have surmised that for some reason, the agency doesn't care about private individuals even though their charge is to serve everyone. The information I read was that anyone could request varieties that the agency should import. Since there is no charge, it can't be that the large commercial growers were able to pay the fees that individual requestors couldn't--since there were no fees involved. So in my own mind, I blame it on a very strong bias towards commercial growers by the gov't agencies to the point of ignoring individual or dooryard fruit growers. (And I've personally witnessed this attitude in a handful of other examples as well with other types of fruits, so my belief isn't completely unsupported). I think the process leading to, and the resulting rules for small seed lots import permits turned out pretty well. I try to use it every time I bring in seeds; however I can't control what the exporter does. There are a number of very legitimate exporters in other countries who have been exporting seeds to the U.S. and elsewhere for decades up until APHIS decided to enforce an available but unused restriction on unpermitted seed imports, who don't like the change, even as minimal as it has become. What I don't understand is that if the exporter fails to follow the rules, why must APHIS/PPQ resort to *destroying* the shipment? It is completely unneeded. And kind of ridiculous when it involves very rare species that really need to be grown by more people before they possibly go extinct. (For example, Worsleya procera.) Sure, some people live far away from inspection stations. But some of us don't. If they called me up, I would drive over and either pay to send it back to the importer or pay some nominal (not an outrageous fee like Australia charges) to have the inspectors look it over and check for the things the exporter was supposed to have checked for--especially for something rare and/or very hard to obtain. There really is no need whatsoever to destroy a non-dangerous import simply because some aspect of the import rules weren't followed correctly, but could be resolved safely at the inspection station at this end instead. Of course, then there are the plant items that are sent to (in my area) the Huntington or the San Diego or Los Angeles Zoos. In some cases, those places have never grown the item, and don't know how to. While there are some people on this list who are expert at growing them and getting them to thrive, even being some of the most knowledgable about it. But the gov't agencies don't seem to have that as one of the options they are willing to try. Why? What you're not ever ever going to do is get Americans, in particular, to stop wanting some non-dangerous plant species or variety that they really want to grow. I think every government agency should attempt to try to satisfy that as much as is reasonably possible, especially since all gov't agency employees are actually employees of the citizens who pay the taxes that pay their salaries. I have a hard time understanding why some agencies seem to not acknowledge that fact. My work is ultimately paid for by federal taxes, and we *always* keep that in mind. In fact, the entity I work for makes it a budget line item of every project we do to spend, I think it's 15 or 20%, on public outreach for every project we do, even though public outreach doesn't help us complete or accomplish any of the projects we do. We know where our money comes from and want the taxpayers to know and hopefully approve of what we're doing with their money always. I think you will find that virtually everyone in this group would be more than happy to try to come up with solutions that everyone including the agencies like APHIS/PPQ could be optimally happy with. (No one is ever going to get 100% of what they want of course. I acknowledge that.) As far as I have experienced all the plant people I've known want to do the right thing. They don't like when that is made prohibitively difficult or expensive for no good reason. --Lee Poulsen Pasadena, California, USDA Zone 10a WDA wrote: > It only takes one person to create a movement and the strength of the movement can create change. As plant collectors in a public forum we should collectively be worried about those individuals who do not advocate to the legal method of plant importation. If we police ourselves then there is less tendency for the government to do it for us. I for one do not want to have my narcissus bulbs die away because of a plant pest native to the origins of the plant material. Nor would I want my neighbor to introduce plant pests across the fence because it's cheaper and easier to bypass the system. I certainly would not buy from a nursery that advocates by passing the system. But that's just me. One person. > Bill > > _______________________________________________ pbs mailing list pbs@lists.ibiblio.org http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php http://pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki From voltaire@islandnet.com Tue Jan 27 13:27:24 2009 Message-Id: From: Diane Whitehead Subject: seed & plant importations Date: Tue, 27 Jan 2009 10:26:43 -0800 Iain, Indeed, scary stuff. However, to respond to the very bottom of your message - the use of dogs is not a useless shortcut. It is a quick efficient way of screening incoming mail or large volumes of luggage at airports. Dogs are trained to detect plants, fruit, meat, narcotics, explosives, and probably a few more articles of concern. It takes a lot less time for a dog to sniff my suitcase rather than having a person open it and look through it. Having a dog sniff all the incoming mail means that it all gets searched. Of course, the right dog would need to be sniffing. If only narcotic and explosive sniffers are on duty, then plants will slip through undetected. We have Detector Dogs in Canada, and I've had dogs sniff my car when I've driven into the U.S. I believe Australia uses them too. Diane Whitehead Canada > From brian.whyer@btinternet.com Tue Jan 27 16:13:47 2009 Message-Id: <472845.53877.qm@web86302.mail.ird.yahoo.com> From: Brian Whyer Subject: Importing Bulbs and Seeds Date: Tue, 27 Jan 2009 21:13:45 +0000 (GMT) > continue to discuss their experiences with plant and > seed import regulations   I have exported seed from the UK to the USA prior to the current yellow and green sticker system, but last year was my first under these rules. I sent 5 packs each of ~50 trillium seed, of the same species, with all the correct paperwork. It was duly checked and passed by the USA authorities, the address label replaced, and delivered back to me. Moral; put your From address in VERY small print. Fortunately my local post office accepted the mistake and it went back in the post, and straight to the intended recipient, without restamping. 3 Atlantic journeys for the price of 1. Amusingly it nearly went by an even more circuitous route as I did not notice there was no country on the yellow/green label and the NY address was Jamaica. The UK Post Office clerk added USA to the address. I can only assume the USA authorities have a sense of humour calling themselves Aphis, think green fly, but then the UK authorities are Defra, think death ray.   Brian Whyer, Buckinghamshire, England, zone ~8 Snowdrops and Eranthis just coming into their own, later than recent years. From jwaddick@kc.rr.com Wed Jan 28 00:24:39 2009 Message-Id: From: James Waddick Subject: Importing Bulbs and Seeds Date: Tue, 27 Jan 2009 16:37:54 -0600 > there was no country on the yellow/green label and the NY address >was Jamaica. The UK Post Office clerk added USA to the address. Dear Brian, Rumor has it that some of these shipments made it to Jamaica, the country, before being routed to the US. Newer labels have the USA designation. I suppose USDA didn't realize there was a country with this name. Duh. Best JW -- Dr. James W. Waddick 8871 NW Brostrom Rd. Kansas City Missouri 64152-2711 USA Ph. 816-746-1949 Zone 5 Record low -23F Summer 100F + From markmazerandfm13@earthlink.net Tue Jan 27 18:38:55 2009 Message-Id: <15435537.1233099534951.JavaMail.root@elwamui-hound.atl.sa.earthlink.net> From: Mark Mazer Subject: Hypocrisy, PBS and importing seed Date: Tue, 27 Jan 2009 18:38:54 -0500 (GMT-05:00) It doesn't take but a few minutes searching the PBS archives to find messages that, implicitly or explicitly, implicate both esteemed and amateur members who illegally import seed or other plant material into the US. Yet the recent discussions only focus on the shortcomings of the current APHIS/USDA regulatory system. What a bunch of hypocrites we are. It doesn't take much knowledge of worldwide seed suppliers to know, that from a well known nursery in Wales that proudly states they (fraudulently) label packages of seed as dried botanical material, to a well known supplier of caudiform and geophytic material in South Africa that illegally ships seed, to an Andean supplier that mislabeles rare material and subsequently supplies a key to ID said material; nor European, Russian, and I suppose many others, unknown to this writer, that are complicit in this type of behavior. It doesn't take but a few moments searching Ebay to find many more suppliers to feed this deception. What a bunch of scoundrels they are. "We have met the enemy.....and he is us" Pogo Mark Mazer Hertford, North Carolina USA From aley_wd@mac.com Tue Jan 27 18:49:20 2009 Message-Id: <40641398313813639307635140785963595209-Webmail@me.com> From: WDA Subject: Importing Bulbs and Seeds Date: Tue, 27 Jan 2009 18:49:14 -0500 First of all, I have not tried to entrap anyone. The laws regarding entrapment would be- Hi I'm interested in smuggling and you seem like a person who would know how to do it. How much would it cost for me to have you smuggle something into another country. Then after you do you it you get busted for doing it. Then remember that this is a public forum. Anyone can read what you post on the internet and it doesn't go away- check out waybackmachine.com to find old documents posted on the internet. I am not responsible for what you choose to post on the internet. If you brag about what you've done or know and then add your name, telephone number and address in the same email then that probably means you'll be standing tall if questioned about it. It is rather foolish to brag or publically state that you are doing something on the internet, especially if it is self incriminating. Remember a pervious post - they only catch the stupid???? It is stupid to provide information on the internet that you don't want someone to use against you. I will not now nor ever in the future pledge that I will keep your secrets to myself or that the government will not come looking for you. Your on your own on that one. That was and is not my intention of participating with this group. When people started stating misfacts I kept my fingers still until it got to the point that people would probably loose their imports because they were missing details. Nor am I to justify to anyone on this group or any other forum by stating facts and figures behind the ability of every DHS employee or USDA employee to deal with every shipment to someone's satisfaction. I can not, that information if it was available would be gained through a FOIA. Last I checked, people from all walks of life make mistakes, are misinformed or lack training. They are often singularities in a process. Many people dislike what we do. We are viewed as the enemy, the evil that is bent on destroying the free will of the common man.The heartless plant cops that harass the innocent. What ever. I am just a plant geek that got recruited into APHIS and through a series of luck or hard work I am now in a position to make changes. I try to help and as Jim has stated I try very hard to allow access to what I know and can accomplish to anyone regardless if it is a large nursery owner or someone starting up a new business- ask Pat from The Auld Sod. He'll give you an Irish earful about me. If you want a thrill just google a name. Mine is easy when spelled correctly. I know how much of my life is an open book and what parts I choose to keep private. So, no I will not give you any degree of confidence that your disclosures will not be used against you nor that any one will come knocking at your door. In fact chances are someone else is also aware of your actions as it applies to their job and someday you may have to look someone in the eye and tell them what it is you meant by the email or posting. It won't be me though. I offered my experience to help with the importation of plant material. I have seen many people navigate through the system and I understand it well enough to actually be paid to be the project manager for changes in the CFR and I am on the international committee to draft the standard for the trade of plants for planting. I am not a bulb expert sorry if I didn't pass the criteria to join this group. I thought it was a place to learn about growing bulb and similar plants. If anyone is interested I did manage to get my Cardiocrinum giagantium to bloom for me in Maryland. I am happy when my rain lillies bloom I didn't know what they were until I read about them in this forum. I spent a lot of money with Tony and enjoy the plants that are successful, mourning my inexperience for the ones that don't. I take adventures in pollinating lillies to see what seed I get. I've tried to propagate lilly scales and I travel all over the world and sometimes I collect plants. I have an import permit and I obtain phytosanitary and CITES certificates and I send them the same way that anyone in the US would ship into the USA. I am currently in Jamaica and thinking about tropical ginger to bring back to the States. If I do it will also be with with any native orchids or bromeliads and perhaps a few tubers. I will have a PC issued by the government, I will personally clean them and box them knowing that sometimes problems in shipping happen and I will use my green and yellow label to send them to the Plant Inspection Station where they will be inspected like anyone else's shipment because in all honesty very few people actually care who I am in my agency. That's not what they are inspecting for, and in all honesty if they do know who I am, they probably inspect my shipments much more vigorously just to say they found something and that I of all people should know better. As I have said before this group has the ability to be an international voice of individuals who can create change in the system. For every off color remark about my lineage or intent, there have been just as many very good suggestions and I assume honest evaluations about how the system works or doesn't work. I pass that information on to those people who can create change. I guess If you expect me to agree to the requests below, I'd ask that everyone in this group swear that they will never try to get past international regulations when they ship plants. That they will always do their utmost to make sure that they are part of a solution to make the system better then to try to create havoc. That they would think twice before they hit the send button and always remind themselves that everyone has an equal voice in the freedom of the internet. It would be very easy to have responded to some of the comments with a jab back, but in my experiences like the butterfly effect, one jab can sometimes lead to a war. By the way the name is Aley. I am with Ellen here. I would like either: 1) a statement from William D. Alley stating that his presence on this list is purely for personal interest, and anything innocently disclosed here will never be used by him or any other representatives of any government agency, as a result of his actions, for any purpose. or 2) an apology from William D. Aley and his immediate unsubscription/removal from the list. If neither are possible I suggest that the PBS board needs to review its list membership policies. I have not searched the archives, but has WDA ever posted _anything_ not related to regulations? I suggest that members or administrators of other lists seriously consider whether there are other people 'lurking' in this way, and review the laws regarding entrapment. From msittner@mcn.org Tue Jan 27 20:42:02 2009 Message-Id: <5.2.0.9.2.20090127174025.030c0d90@mail.mcn.org> From: "Adam Fikso" (by way of Mary Sue Ittner ) Subject: Importing Bulbs and Seeds Date: Tue, 27 Jan 2009 17:41:17 -0800 I fully endorse Ellen's position and do not think that this is "bickering". The term "bickering" diminishes the importance of the subject. I have been critical before of APHIS during this administration, and expect to be again. But they do seem to be getting their act together. The work is important, but it will only be through a back and forth exchange of ideas and criticism of ideas and procedures that the system will be improved. At present, there are NO foolproof methods for ensuring that potential pests can be stopped at our door. And the nature of the problem is such that it CANNOT be made fool proof. Organisms mutate. Wind blows. Pests from China ride the winds around the world 6 miles above our country, and pollution is not only from "those foreigners", but from every country in the world, including ours, all mixing in the "soup" of viruses, molds, bacteria, excreta, metal powders, radioactive particles, etc. that we all live in. I am absolutely for an open exchange of ideas including criticisms. It is the only way to improve our common welfare] A few days ago, I was annoyed about the repetition of "old" ideas and their repetition, and posted my annoyance-- because apparently, some folks had not yet learned about the ongoing restrictive conditions for importation. But some people come late to knowledge that may be "old hat" to others, and room needs to be made for newcomers with tolerance for repetition of old information I note in passing that Mr Aley may not be aware of how threatening his arrival, coupled with his eMail address, on this list was-- to some people. He probably regards himself as benign, and his workplace as equally benign. but,..to others it had the effect of a comment such as (Hmmm... You have relative in Odessa? No? Minsk? Is all right..Ve can check.) The implied threat could also be rendered in more clearly defined Cyrillic or Germanic overtones. The Department of Homeland Security and its nearly unlimited power under the PATRIOT Act is not viewed as altogether necessary nor benign. So, Bill, I'm old enough to be a vet of WWII, and may therefore have a longer view of certain kinds of events, including the forcible overnight removal of my Japanese friends to places we didn't even know about for a quite a while. Having the USDA under Homeland Security is downright spooky even though it may be logical if one thinks only in terms of apparent effiiciency and economy in a Table of Organization. It remains to be seen whether it will be. Also, it's hard for the military aspects of DHS to be reconciled in many minds with peaceful little flowers. Not ham and eggs, but ham and chocolate truffles, with mayo on the side as an analogy--or worse.} Regardless of the utility or necessity of certain government moves undertaken by the recent past administration, or one's view of them politically-- politics affects bulbs, and diseases of geophytes, and their survival in out of the way locations. I note the fact that military bases have been havens for many threatened and endangered species, in California for the kit fox, in Israel (The Golan Heights for oncocyclus irises ). I mention this because there is a tendency in this group to set the boundaries of acceptable topics for discussion wa-a-ay too narrowly. Down to the species level and below for taxonomic distinctions of no use to anybody except a taxonomist, and the connoisseur who wants to be sure that s/he has the "true" species, when there may be no recent agreed-on picture of the entity in question. PBS works to supply it. Sometimes annoyance follows close on the heels of such concerns being voiced...but rarely. And Mary Sue does a magnificent "presidential " job of moderating the discussions. If she wanted to drop my entire presentation here, I'd understand--and accept it . But I think that in order to advance the case of the PBS, and its future without its becoming hidebound or calcified, we need to work out ways of easier importation and distribution so that we continue to have samples of what we talk about. If Bill Aley (WDA) and his associates can help us do this, I'm for welcoming him. Maybe he could even help simplify some of the rigmarole of getting registered as an importer of small samples. Do we really need a 10-letter password composed of 2 symbols from the top line,... etc?. Sincerely, Adam Fikso, Ph.D.,(psychology-- not one of the botanical subspecialties.) From adam14113@ameritech.net Tue Jan 27 22:00:39 2009 Message-Id: <0BE2B29B4E22445C87B384365052AF1C@FAMILY> From: "Adam Fikso" Subject: Fw: Importing Bulbs and Seeds Date: Tue, 27 Jan 2009 20:59:31 -0600 ----- Original Message ----- From: "Adam Fikso (by way of Mary Sue Ittner)" To: Sent: Tuesday, January 27, 2009 7:41 PM Subject: Re: [pbs] Importing Bulbs and Seeds >I fully endorse Ellen's position and do not think that this is "bickering". > The term "bickering" diminishes the importance of the subject. I have > been > critical before of APHIS during this administration, and expect to be > again. But they do seem to be getting their act together. The work is > important, but it will only be through a back and forth exchange of ideas > and criticism of ideas and procedures that the system will be improved. > > At present, there are NO foolproof methods for ensuring that potential > pests can be stopped at our door. And the nature of the problem is such > that it CANNOT be made fool proof. Organisms mutate. Wind blows. Pests > from China ride the winds around the world 6 miles above our country, and > pollution is not only from "those foreigners", but from every country in > the world, including ours, all mixing in the "soup" of viruses, molds, > bacteria, excreta, metal powders, radioactive particles, etc. that we all > live in. > > I am absolutely for an open exchange of ideas including criticisms. It is > the only way to improve our common welfare] > > A few days ago, I was annoyed about the repetition of "old" ideas and > their > repetition, and posted my annoyance-- because apparently, some folks had > not yet learned about the ongoing restrictive conditions for > importation. But some people come late to knowledge that may be "old > hat" to others, and room needs to be made for newcomers with tolerance > for > repetition of old information > > I note in passing that Mr Aley may not be aware of how threatening his > arrival, coupled with his eMail address, on this list was-- to some > people. He probably regards himself as benign, and his workplace as > equally > benign. but,..to others it had the effect of a comment such > as (Hmmm... You have relative in Odessa? No? Minsk? Is all > right..Ve can check.) The implied threat could also be rendered in more > clearly defined Cyrillic or Germanic overtones. > > The Department of Homeland Security and its nearly unlimited power under > the PATRIOT Act is not viewed as altogether necessary nor benign. So, > Bill, I'm old enough to be a vet of WWII, and may therefore have a longer > view of certain kinds of events, including the forcible overnight removal > of my Japanese friends to places we didn't even know about for a quite a > while. Having the USDA under Homeland Security is downright spooky even > though it may be logical if one thinks only in terms of apparent > effiiciency and economy in a Table of Organization. It remains to be seen > whether it will be. Also, it's hard for the military aspects of DHS to be > reconciled in many minds with peaceful little flowers. Not ham and eggs, > but ham and chocolate truffles, with mayo on the side as an analogy--or > worse.} > > Regardless of the utility or necessity of certain government moves > undertaken by the recent past administration, or one's view of them > politically-- politics affects bulbs, and diseases of geophytes, and their > survival in out of the way locations. I note the fact that military bases > have been havens for many threatened and endangered species, in California > for the kit fox, in Israel (The Golan Heights for oncocyclus irises ). I > mention this because there is a tendency in this group to set the > boundaries of acceptable topics for discussion wa-a-ay too narrowly. Down > to the species level and below for taxonomic distinctions of no use to > anybody except a taxonomist, and the connoisseur who wants to be sure that > s/he has the "true" species, when there may be no recent agreed-on > picture > of the entity in question. PBS works to supply it. Sometimes annoyance > follows close on the heels of such concerns being voiced...but > rarely. And Mary Sue does a magnificent "presidential " job of > moderating the discussions. If she wanted to drop my entire presentation > here, I'd understand--and accept it . > > But I think that in order to advance the case of the PBS, and its future > without its becoming hidebound or calcified, we need to work out ways of > easier importation and distribution so that we continue to have samples of > what we talk about. If Bill Aley (WDA) and his associates can help us do > this, I'm for welcoming him. Maybe he could even help simplify some of > the > rigmarole of getting registered as an importer of small samples. Do we > really need a 10-letter password composed of 2 symbols from the top > line,... etc?. Sincerely, > Adam Fikso, Ph.D.,(psychology-- not one of the botanical subspecialties.) > > _______________________________________________ > pbs mailing list > pbs@lists.ibiblio.org > http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php > http://pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki From eez55@earthlink.net Tue Jan 27 22:11:40 2009 Message-Id: <380-2200913283113015@earthlink.net> From: "Eugene Zielinski" Subject: Importing Bulbs and Seeds Date: Tue, 27 Jan 2009 22:11:30 -0500 Mr. Aley (and everybody else). If you are planning to import orchid plants, be sure you have CITES documentation. All orchid plants are covered Under CITES I or CITES II. Gene Eugene Zielinski Augusta, GA > I have an import permit and I obtain phytosanitary and CITES certificates and I send them the same way that anyone in the US would ship into the USA. > > I am currently in Jamaica and thinking about tropical ginger to bring back to the States. If I do it will also be with with any native orchids or bromeliads and perhaps a few tubers. I will have a PC issued by the government, I will personally clean them and box them knowing that sometimes problems in shipping happen and I will use my green and yellow label to send them to the Plant Inspection Station where they will be inspected like anyone else's shipment because in all honesty very few people actually care who I am in my agency. That's not what they are inspecting for, and in all honesty if they do know who I am, they probably inspect my shipments much more vigorously just to say they found something and that I of all people should know better. From mikemace@att.net Wed Jan 28 01:53:21 2009 Message-Id: <000301c98115$17c76690$475633b0$@net> From: "Michael Mace" Subject: Thoughts on the importation discussion Date: Tue, 27 Jan 2009 22:53:13 -0800 Okay, deep breath. I'm going to de-lurk for a minute and try to be useful. PBS is a great list. As someone who suffered through the collapse of the old Bulbs mailing list some years back, I really value this forum and would hate to see it damaged. At the same time, despite all of the tension expressed in recent days, I am glad this discussion is happening. Many of us in the US have been enormously frustrated by the confusion and complexities involved in plant importation, and by what feels like a distant and arbitrary government decision-making process. It sounds like some government officials have been frustrated too. There's a lot of pent-up emotion that needs to be burned off, and that is always an ugly process. But when that process is done I hope we can settle down to have a productive discussion and maybe actually influence the way the rules are developing. That's what I think you're offering, Mr. Aley, and if so I want to take you up on it. I personally think that with a productive dialog we could have a system that is both more secure and easier for plant nuts to deal with. The key is to *keep talking,* don't kick anyone out, and treat each other with respect, the same as we would if we were talking face to face. And I'd like to ask that folks give each other a pass for what's been said so far. Like I said, it's part of the frustration-release process, let it go. In the meantime, the discussion has already been helpful to me because it pointed out that you can apply for a plant import permit by mail. I thought you could do it only electronically, which in my case would have forced me to drive two-plus hours each way to have a government official look at my driver's license. Thanks for that, you saved me a tank of gas. Mike San Jose, CA (zone 9, min temp 20F) PS: Once the discussion calms down, maybe we can talk about the whitelist ;-) From donjournet@netspace.net.au Wed Jan 28 03:49:26 2009 Message-Id: <49801C01.5090305@netspace.net.au> From: Don Journet Subject: Hypocrisy, PBS and importing seed Date: Wed, 28 Jan 2009 19:49:05 +1100 "We have met the enemy.....and he is us" How true this statement is. There are a great number of members and participants in this forum who have contributed a tremendous amount to the organisation. In the past there was a great deal of freedom in respect of importing seed and even plant material into countries all around the world. Those times have changed but understandably the changes have upset some who are stayed in their ways. Attacking these folk is not the way to a harmonious future. Education and persuasion are the answers, attacking is the stuff of wars. In management and education we hear a lot on the subject of Anger Management and Conflict Resolution in our training and it would benefit some folk to obtain some counselling in this area. The enemy is anyone who makes a personal attack upon another member as opposed to expressing their opinions and making suggestions on the general principal of the problem. Bashing people over the head is no longer an acceptable method of achieving a desirable outcome. Please, can we not solve these problems, hopefully permanently, by rational discussion and leave the policing and necessary procedures to the authorities put in place to regulate these importations. Our discussions would be far more profitably directed to how we can operate following the lines of best practice within the guidelines set out, and where possible to get procedures changed if they can be demonstrated to be against everyones best interest. Regards Don Journet > It doesn't take but a few minutes searching the PBS archives to find messages that, implicitly or explicitly, implicate both esteemed and amateur members who illegally import seed or other plant material into the US. > > Yet the recent discussions only focus on the shortcomings of the current APHIS/USDA regulatory system. > > What a bunch of hypocrites we are. > > It doesn't take much knowledge of worldwide seed suppliers to know, that from a well known nursery in Wales that proudly states they (fraudulently) label packages of seed as dried botanical material, to a well known supplier of caudiform and geophytic material in South Africa that illegally ships seed, to an Andean supplier that mislabeles rare material and subsequently supplies a key to ID said material; nor European, Russian, and I suppose many others, unknown to this writer, that are complicit in this type of behavior. It doesn't take but a few moments searching Ebay to find many more suppliers to feed this deception. > > What a bunch of scoundrels they are. > > Pogo > > Mark Mazer > Hertford, North Carolina USA > _______________________________________________ > pbs mailing list > pbs@lists.ibiblio.org > http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php > http://pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki > > From hornig@earthlink.net Wed Jan 28 09:23:39 2009 Message-Id: <098482A780964AE3B45215E1BE8A9C64@ellenPC> From: "Ellen Hornig" Subject: Motives and incentives for importing Date: Wed, 28 Jan 2009 09:29:38 -0500 I like to think I do my best thinking in the shower, so here I am, clean and refreshed, with the following insights: (1) There are roughly three categories of plant/seed importers: Businesses who import for resale (large quantities), businesses who import for stock/propagation (small quantities), and private parties who import for their own use. (small quantities). (2) the ones who probably care least about bringing in hidden pests, viruses, etc are the first (OK, shoot me, but I bet it's true). They are rewholesaling (think cheap bulbs, bareroot perennials, etc) to mass merchandisers and to big growers who are going to have a hard time proving anything when the damage is discovered 6 months later. Nurseries who bring in material for propagation, and private individuals (sophisticated gardeners and plant collectors) are the most likely to be paying attention to how their plants develop, and the most likely to destroy material that shows any signs of disease, because they have every good reason not to want it to spread into their other stock. (3) I am guessing that APHIS spends most of its time inspecting the "large import" category, because that's where the money is, and money isn't going to sit around idly if its imports sit around for a month before being inspected. This is appropriate but not, in my opinion, because it's where the money is, but because it's where the pests are, especially if, as Iain relates, the Dutch are so overriden with pests that they're farming growing operations out to the Chinese, who, according to my ag inspector, are the source of most of the baddies coming in. (4) Problem is, the second two categories don't enjoy priority treatment (again, guessing), and bad things happen to good plants while they wait. All the stories that kick around amongst friends and peers have to do with this category, and they add up to delays, spoilage, and inquiries or complaints being met either with indifference or, worst case, with the sort of shut-up-or-we'll-blow-you-out-of-the-water hostility with which messengers of bad news seem occasionally to be greeted. (5) A corollary: educating scofflaws properly, so that they get their import permits and use the system, isn't going to help an already overloaded system, and the numbers of disgruntled small importers will increase, the flow of stories such as we are all joyfully sharing will increase, and if history is a guide, the campaign of terror will kick into high gear (i.e. more threats of dire consequences substituted for a functioning system for small importers). (6) Second corollary: the system would REALLY like to chase small users out. This is certainly what many of us think is the bottom line here right now: just go away. There's a reason why I'm growing more and more US natives - we haven't gotten around to regulating those much - yet. My thoughts as a former economist: user fees (to pay for the inspection service) will help. The big guys are the least able to evade the system, and what they're importing can hardly be deemed essential to the national security, so why shouldn't they pick up a percentage of the inspection costs proportional to their usage of the system? Of course it will have to be built into the retail price of the material, and of course this will result in smaller sales. This is the same reasoning that leads us to tax polluters (I wish!) and let them build those taxes into the prices of their products: it's just internalizing costs that were formerly kept as externalities and born by the public. There is no argument I can think of that supports the public subsidizatition of plant imports, and as I said above, the big guys would have a lot of trouble hiding their imports. I don't think a genuine user fee falls afoul of trade regulations - but - it may. Bill, do you know? I think there's a general feeling that user fees will drive small users back into the illegal market, but I rather doubt this is the case IF small users face proportionally small fees (I don't think $25-35 per shipment is unbearable for a truly small shipment) and IF their shipments are handled fairly and in a timely manner. I really do believe that most people would prefer to do things legally if they could be sure of fair treatment. It is clear that under the present system they do NOT believe they get fair treatment. Bottom line, for me, is that a system that treats all users fairly will be used by most people, and you can't drive yourself crazy trying to catch the rest, any more than you can get frantic about the small percentage of welfare recipients who really do refuse to work. Most of them want to work, and most of us want to be legal. And I bet we'd even be willing to pay for it. Thoughts? Ellen Ellen Hornig Seneca Hill Perennials 3712 County Route 57 Oswego NY 13126 USA www.senecahillperennials.com From khixson@nu-world.com Wed Jan 28 09:51:20 2009 Message-Id: <498070E3.6060901@nu-world.com> From: Kenneth Hixson Subject: importation discussion and PBS Date: Wed, 28 Jan 2009 06:51:15 -0800 Dear Members of the PBS list: I mostly lurk, but I'm going to add to this discussion for a reason: I value this list because I value other people's opinions and experiences, precisely because they are different from mine. If I didn't value other people's different opinions, the only reason to belong would be to brag about how well I do with my plants. Well, I'm not perfect, and amazingly enough, I don't expect other people to be either. When the "discussion" gets to the point that members start writing of not posting anymore, it has gone too far. We all lose. Mary Sue and company do a lot of work, and their thank you is the continuation of the result of their work, which is the PBS list. Well, they do get thanked once in a while, but not as much as they deserve. And, yes, I'm guilty of that too. That said, do I have opinions? Of course. Prohibition doesn't work, whether it is alcohol, drugs like marijuana, guns, or even plants. It does slow down the spread of such things, and sometimes gives government agencies time enough to work out a strategy of response. Whether or not the price you pay for government action is more than the cost of no government action may be open to different opinions. William Aley has given an insider's view of how the system works. I don't like the system, think it needs many changes, but, I'm not involved in the day-to-day operations of the system, and he is. Complaining to the PBS list, or to him, is almost certainly less effective than expressing your opinion to your congressman or senator. Hint, hint. You might also keep in mind that the PBS list doesn't just serve one country, it goes around the world, and so does what you say. As Mr Aley has already mentioned, what you post will be seen by anyone searching similar topics--I've already been referred to comments I've previously posted while searching for information on various things. It can be a little scary. So, please, keep having "differences of opinion", but express them in a way that adds to understanding, not causing people to feel they need to defend themselves. If you do things differently, see things differently than I do or see them, my way may be better, or it may not. I can learn from the way you do things, the way you see things. Perhaps the reverse is true. Ken From honeybunny442@yahoo.com Wed Jan 28 10:52:55 2009 Message-Id: <250616.81828.qm@web56106.mail.re3.yahoo.com> From: Susan B Subject: Motives and incentives for importing Date: Wed, 28 Jan 2009 07:52:55 -0800 (PST) Thoughts? Ellen ....Must have been a long shower :) From hornig@earthlink.net Wed Jan 28 10:58:41 2009 Message-Id: From: "Ellen Hornig" Subject: Motives and incentives for importing Date: Wed, 28 Jan 2009 11:04:41 -0500 Touche'....:-) Ellen Ellen Hornig Seneca Hill Perennials 3712 County Route 57 Oswego NY 13126 USA www.senecahillperennials.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "Susan B" To: "Pacific Bulb Society" Sent: Wednesday, January 28, 2009 10:52 AM Subject: Re: [pbs] Motives and incentives for importing > Thoughts? > > Ellen > > > ....Must have been a long shower :) > > > > > _______________________________________________ > pbs mailing list > pbs@lists.ibiblio.org > http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php > http://pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki From markmazerandfm13@earthlink.net Wed Jan 28 11:09:12 2009 Message-Id: <23639087.1233158952022.JavaMail.root@mswamui-billy.atl.sa.earthlink.net> From: Mark Mazer Subject: Motives and incentives for importing Date: Wed, 28 Jan 2009 11:09:11 -0500 (GMT-05:00) >Bottom line, for me, is that a system that treats all users fairly will be >used by most people, and you can't drive yourself crazy trying to catch the >rest, any more than you can get frantic about the small percentage of >welfare recipients who really do refuse to work. > >Thoughts? > > Ellen, The answer is obvious if one is not trained in classical game theory and simply observes human behavior, irrational and emotional as it can be. If person A accepts an unequal offer and rewards person B's greed, instead of cooperating, A may be prepared to suffer a loss. People like things to be fair, and if they don't perceive what is going on as being fair, they are prepared to suffer in order to punish those they see as the source of the unfairness. The phenomenon is called "altruistic punishment" by those newfangled economic behaviorists. Mark Mazer Hertford, North Carolina USA From honeybunny442@yahoo.com Wed Jan 28 11:50:57 2009 Message-Id: <277881.44124.qm@web56103.mail.re3.yahoo.com> From: Susan B Subject: Sorry, I couldn't resist! and bulb ID Date: Wed, 28 Jan 2009 08:50:50 -0800 (PST) Sorry Ellen, I couldn't resist! hee hee On a bulb related note, I have something blooming in the greenhouse, it has a fragrant lachenalia- like flower but thin strappy leaves.  I don't think the list allows attachments, is there somewhere else I can send a photo for ID?  Don't get excited though, I don't have anything rare or exciting. Susan --- On Wed, 1/28/09, Ellen Hornig wrote: From: Ellen Hornig Subject: Re: [pbs] Motives and incentives for importing To: "Pacific Bulb Society" Date: Wednesday, January 28, 2009, 11:04 AM Touche'....:-) Ellen Ellen Hornig Seneca Hill Perennials 3712 County Route 57 Oswego NY 13126 USA www.senecahillperennials.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "Susan B" To: "Pacific Bulb Society" Sent: Wednesday, January 28, 2009 10:52 AM Subject: Re: [pbs] Motives and incentives for importing > Thoughts? > > Ellen > > > ....Must have been a long shower :) > > > > > _______________________________________________ > pbs mailing list > pbs@lists.ibiblio.org > http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php > http://pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki _______________________________________________ pbs mailing list pbs@lists.ibiblio.org http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php http://pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki From clayton3120@cablespeed.com Wed Jan 28 13:00:50 2009 Message-Id: From: "Rick" Subject: importation discussion and PBS Date: Wed, 28 Jan 2009 10:00:52 -0800 Well, I'm getting my seed orders in before you all fix it so that the only thing we can buy anymore is Bachelor Buttons and Cosmos. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kenneth Hixson" To: "Pacific Bulb Society" Sent: Wednesday, January 28, 2009 6:51 AM Subject: Re: [pbs] importation discussion and PBS > Dear Members of the PBS list: > > I mostly lurk, but I'm going to add to this discussion > for a reason: I value this list because I value other people's > opinions and experiences, precisely because they are different from > mine. If I didn't value other people's different opinions, the > only reason to belong would be to brag about how well I do with my > plants. Well, I'm not perfect, and amazingly enough, I don't > expect other people to be either. When the "discussion" gets > to the point that members start writing of not posting anymore, > it has gone too far. We all lose. > Mary Sue and company do a lot of work, and their thank you > is the continuation of the result of their work, which is the > PBS list. Well, they do get thanked once in a while, but not > as much as they deserve. And, yes, I'm guilty of that too. > > That said, do I have opinions? Of course. Prohibition > doesn't work, whether it is alcohol, drugs like marijuana, guns, > or even plants. It does slow down the spread of such things, > and sometimes gives government agencies time enough to work out > a strategy of response. Whether or not the price you pay for > government action is more than the cost of no government action > may be open to different opinions. William Aley has given an > insider's view of how the system works. I don't like the system, > think it needs many changes, but, I'm not involved in the day-to-day > operations of the system, and he is. Complaining to the PBS > list, or to him, is almost certainly less effective than expressing > your opinion to your congressman or senator. Hint, hint. > You might also keep in mind that the PBS list doesn't just > serve one country, it goes around the world, and so does what you say. > As Mr Aley has already mentioned, what you post will be seen by > anyone searching similar topics--I've already been referred to > comments I've previously posted while searching for information on > various things. It can be a little scary. > > So, please, keep having "differences of opinion", but > express them in a way that adds to understanding, not causing > people to feel they need to defend themselves. If you do things > differently, see things differently than I do or see them, my > way may be better, or it may not. I can learn from the way you > do things, the way you see things. Perhaps the reverse is true. > > Ken > _______________________________________________ > pbs mailing list > pbs@lists.ibiblio.org > http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php > http://pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki From idavide@sbcglobal.net Wed Jan 28 13:07:06 2009 Message-Id: <75330.25115.qm@web81008.mail.mud.yahoo.com> From: David Ehrlich Subject: Importing Bulbs and Seeds Date: Wed, 28 Jan 2009 10:07:04 -0800 (PST) Especially as the flag of Jamaica is green-and-yellow & black with a strong diagonal, and many postal workers are probably from Jamaica (either interpretation), so there's plenty of room for error.   ________________________________ From: James Waddick To: Pacific Bulb Society Sent: Tuesday, January 27, 2009 2:37:54 PM Subject: Re: [pbs] Importing Bulbs and Seeds >  there was no country on the yellow/green label and the NY address >was Jamaica. The UK Post Office clerk added USA to the address. Dear Brian,     Rumor has it that some of these shipments made it to Jamaica, the country, before being routed to the US.     Newer labels have the USA designation.  I suppose USDA didn't realize there was a country with this name.     Duh.             Best        JW -- Dr. James W. Waddick 8871 NW Brostrom Rd. Kansas City Missouri 64152-2711 USA Ph.    816-746-1949 Zone 5 Record low -23F     Summer 100F + _______________________________________________ pbs mailing list pbs@lists.ibiblio.org http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php http://pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki From adam14113@ameritech.net Wed Jan 28 13:40:17 2009 Message-Id: <3244F3C7978240F08AAAE438B5EE0DAF@FAMILY> From: "Adam Fikso" Subject: importation discussion and PBS Date: Wed, 28 Jan 2009 12:39:43 -0600 Ellen: I think that your analysis is "right on" . Accurate across the board on my first assessment . There is another problem lurking here, I think, though --which I have yet to be able to put into the right words, but it results in using a sledge hammer to smash a gnat. Using a military model of threat and applying it to plant pests that are with us, literally in the air we breathe, only results in killlng all the hosts. The USDA should be OUT from under Homeland Security. The map is not the territoy, by which I mean that a Table of Organization may represent a problem of management, but it is not the problem, and shuffling people around and writing more restrictive rules to solve the apparent problem does not resolve the issues, any more than jumping out of a plane to land on a carrier and announcing the end of the problem. Lest it be thought that I am merely poking fun at our just previous president--I am not. He provided an object lesson of exactly the sort that I have just outlined. Moving to other biological control models Snakes in Trinidad.--Bring in mongooses to control the snakes. Fine! Excellent results at first,. But after the snakes were eaten, and there were no more and the baby mongooses had to be fed, they started decimating the chickens on which poorer and rural folks depended--wth resulting poverty . Australia provides better and more enduring examples of biological control gone sour.. But the kind of thinking here is known in the military as "Get a bigger hammer" i.e., more of the same. If an unregulated financial market provides examples of nationwide bank failure through bad judgment, then clearly what is required is more of the same. The problem is intrinsic to much of our thinking. Example: We don't call the bad mortgages that should not have been made what they are, we call them toxic assets. How are they assets,? They're debts, they're deficits , they're NOT assets. We regard the financial market as an entity capable of thought, like a living being, not unlike a god which is worshipped daily. It's making a correction,. it wants to go up. It's been up so long it's got to come down. We infuse it with ideas about ourselves. Choosing the proper method for assessing a problem is critical. One should not use butcher knives to pick out splinters. One should not use strong acids or strong reducing agents to clean silverware unless they are diluted sufficiently. I can anticipate some thinking in this group about the yoked issues of plant inspection to protect against external pathogens, and too strict and unnecessary regulation at a governmental level. Trying to assess the efficacy of keeping plant pathogens out of the country by recourse to nothing more than a cost-benefit ratio or a risk analysis based on a financial "bottom line" , or using an inappropriate model for assessing the risk to us all has got to give way to something more up to date and sophisticated. Nor is the answer to be found in a dependence on divine intervention. Most of us have put that aside, but an equal blind reliance on an inappropriate other model won't work long either. . People who import seeds as individal growers,connoisseurs or hybridizers are not often the source of the agricultural devastation that arises from Mediterranean fruit flies or similar agent. But I have never seen a studhy on the matter. Anybody know of any such studies? And how did Kudzu get into the country anyway? I'm going right now to look it up. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kenneth Hixson" To: "Pacific Bulb Society" Sent: Wednesday, January 28, 2009 8:51 AM Subject: Re: [pbs] importation discussion and PBS > Dear Members of the PBS list: > > I mostly lurk, but I'm going to add to this discussion > for a reason: I value this list because I value other people's > opinions and experiences, precisely because they are different from > mine. If I didn't value other people's different opinions, the > only reason to belong would be to brag about how well I do with my > plants. Well, I'm not perfect, and amazingly enough, I don't > expect other people to be either. When the "discussion" gets > to the point that members start writing of not posting anymore, > it has gone too far. We all lose. > Mary Sue and company do a lot of work, and their thank you > is the continuation of the result of their work, which is the > PBS list. Well, they do get thanked once in a while, but not > as much as they deserve. And, yes, I'm guilty of that too. > > That said, do I have opinions? Of course. Prohibition > doesn't work, whether it is alcohol, drugs like marijuana, guns, > or even plants. It does slow down the spread of such things, > and sometimes gives government agencies time enough to work out > a strategy of response. Whether or not the price you pay for > government action is more than the cost of no government action > may be open to different opinions. William Aley has given an > insider's view of how the system works. I don't like the system, > think it needs many changes, but, I'm not involved in the day-to-day > operations of the system, and he is. Complaining to the PBS > list, or to him, is almost certainly less effective than expressing > your opinion to your congressman or senator. Hint, hint. > You might also keep in mind that the PBS list doesn't just > serve one country, it goes around the world, and so does what you say. > As Mr Aley has already mentioned, what you post will be seen by > anyone searching similar topics--I've already been referred to > comments I've previously posted while searching for information on > various things. It can be a little scary. > > So, please, keep having "differences of opinion", but > express them in a way that adds to understanding, not causing > people to feel they need to defend themselves. If you do things > differently, see things differently than I do or see them, my > way may be better, or it may not. I can learn from the way you > do things, the way you see things. Perhaps the reverse is true. > > Ken > _______________________________________________ > pbs mailing list > pbs@lists.ibiblio.org > http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php > http://pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki From aley_wd@mac.com Wed Jan 28 13:43:38 2009 Message-Id: <34726384913559377816324094086407984221-Webmail@me.com> From: WDA Subject: Importing Bulbs and Seeds Date: Wed, 28 Jan 2009 13:43:36 -0500 Again my 2 cents worth. The private contractor who designed the ePermit system kept the USA on the same line as the city and State. Which is not to international standards. APHIS spent 300 hours of contract time to get them to fix the problem so the USA conforms to international standards on the green and yellow label. Unlike how it was earlier assumed it was not an APHIS problem but a private civilian company who held the contract and the ability to modify the program at a great expense to the US taxpayers. The last I heard this had been resolved. As I currently the APHIS OIC in Kingston Jamaica I can probably state that at least me and the staff here can vouch that APHIS PPQ is aware of the difference between Jamaica NY and the country of Jamaica. From janemcgary@earthlink.net Wed Jan 28 13:53:38 2009 Message-Id: From: Jane McGary Subject: Motives and incentives for importing Date: Wed, 28 Jan 2009 10:51:49 -0800 Thank you to Ellen Hornig for her reasoned and articulate summary. Here are some other things to think about. 1. If small importers and private consumers were able to work through agents who could batch orders and enjoy the same response time with inspectors as large importers do, it would add to the cost for the small/private importers but might make the system work more efficiently. 2. Many of the plants being imported actually are present in the United States already, but the importers don't know it. Better sharing of information, particularly about plants held in very small nurseries or private collections that are willing to trade, might make some importation unnecessary. This is the motive behind my own annual bulb surplus sale (which will move to a commercial nursery in a couple of years), where people can obtain plants they would otherwise be buying from Paul Christian in the UK or other overseas suppliers. 3. Particularly of importance to bulb enthusiasts, we should encourage the importation of seeds rather than bulbs. This drastically reduces the chances of importing pathogens and pests, and it also allows US growers to raise diverse clones and select those most suited to their particular environmental conditions. Seeds can withstand delays at inspection stations better than plants and bulbs can, and they are less expensive. Jane McGary Northwestern Oregon, USA From voltaire@islandnet.com Wed Jan 28 13:56:13 2009 Message-Id: From: Diane Whitehead Subject: importation discussion and PBS Date: Wed, 28 Jan 2009 10:55:27 -0800 Protection from plant pathogens does not happen only at the border. Australia, Canada, and the U.S. also have limits to plant movements within their borders. Diane From idavide@sbcglobal.net Wed Jan 28 15:56:07 2009 Message-Id: <104455.62932.qm@web81007.mail.mud.yahoo.com> From: David Ehrlich Subject: importation discussion and PBS Date: Wed, 28 Jan 2009 12:56:00 -0800 (PST) From: Rick clayton3120@cablespeed.com Well, I'm getting my seed orders in before you all fix it so that the only thing we can buy anymore is Bachelor Buttons and Cosmos.   ________________________________ Cosmos??  Except for C. bipinnatus, it's not all all easy to get Cosmos.  Two other species (C. sulphureus and C. atrosanguineus) can be found on the internet, but rarely at nurseries.  Other species are very difficuolt to obtain. Besides, some of the new varieties even of C. bipinnatus are very beautiful and exciting. From honeybunny442@yahoo.com Wed Jan 28 17:20:37 2009 Message-Id: <641190.37750.qm@web56103.mail.re3.yahoo.com> From: Susan B Subject: importation discussion and PBS Date: Wed, 28 Jan 2009 14:20:36 -0800 (PST) I believe Kudzu was imported for erosion control. From kellso@irvincentral.com Wed Jan 28 18:12:40 2009 Message-Id: <4980E650.3010405@irvincentral.com> From: Kelly Irvin Subject: importation discussion and PBS Date: Wed, 28 Jan 2009 17:12:16 -0600 The following is a quote from the Tennessee Journalist ("http://tnjn.com/2008/dec/09/kudzu-a-problem-vine-we-can-wo/"): "Believe it or not, kudzu was not an accidental import. Kudzu was introduced to the United States in 1876 at the Philadelphia Centennial Exposition by the Japanese, who promoted it as an ornamental plant that could also be used to feed cattle. From 1935-1953, farmers were encouraged to plant the vine and were actually paid $8 an acre by the government. The Soil Conservation Service advocated the use of Kudzu to prevent erosion and, with the help of the Civilian Conservation Corp, planted thousands of acres of the vine." Mr. Kelly M. Irvin 10850 Hodge Ln Gravette, AR 72736 USA 479-787-9958 USDA Cold Hardiness Zone 6a/b http://www.irvincentral.com/ Susan B wrote: > I believe Kudzu was imported for erosion control. > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > pbs mailing list > pbs@lists.ibiblio.org > http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php > http://pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki > > From byron.amerson@gmail.com Wed Jan 28 19:33:15 2009 Message-Id: <8b1330f60901281633p74a13f8ft1fb1087c90016bf3@mail.gmail.com> From: Byron Amerson Subject: Importing Bulbs and Seeds Date: Wed, 28 Jan 2009 16:33:13 -0800 Greetings All, I'm new to the list and membership in the PBS. I have been avidly following the recent discourse (such as it has been) regarding small lot seed imports. Prior to seeing it here, I had no idea that I even needed a permit to import seeds from abroad. So that's something valuable from the flurry of posts right there. Being quite new to geophyte cultivation (via a fixation on succulent plants) and eager to acquire some seed, I figured I would go ahead and get a permit application submitted and then provide some empirical feedback to the list as I gain experience with the "official" approach of application and seed import. The online application procedure is clunky at best. I find it curious that I can mail in an application with no ID requirement, but for online transactions I need to go in person to provide ID before setting up an account. I consider myself reasonably web-savvy, and I perform many critical transactions over the web, and have never had to provide my ID in this way. If it's good enough for the IRS, shouldn't it be good enough for APHIS? The APHIS website specifically claims that they provide the web application process for speedier processing. Alas, it does not live up to this promise despite the information-rich content otherwise provided on the site. If they want more people to use the web portal to reduce paper use and speed up the process, then this impediment needs to be remedied, because for now it is a stopper. Perhaps their concern for fraud via the web is higher than for paper? For now I sent in my paper application (no ID required!). South Africa is the only country I'll be importing from, and I stated "all eligible species" in the species section, as directed in the instructions for when there are more taxa than will fit in the allotted space. FYI, that choice to not list specific taxa means its up to me to make sure I'm not importing CITES listed species. I'll post to the list when I receive the permit to give an idea of turn around time. Once I receive the permit, I'll go ahead and follow the procedure to import some seeds to see how it works out. I'll also post my experiences in that endeavor, for the edification of others. Here is a thorny question that I hate to ask: how does this small lot seed import permit requirement affect the PBX? I can see this being a can of worms not only conceptually, but it seems the mechanics of actually implementing it could be well beyond tedious, if not downright prohibitive. I can imagine that the PBX is already a considerable effort for Dell (thanks!) without an extra bureaucratic layer. Regards, Byron From adam14113@ameritech.net Wed Jan 28 20:22:52 2009 Message-Id: From: "Adam Fikso" Subject: Motives and incentives for importing Date: Wed, 28 Jan 2009 19:22:44 -0600 Reply to Mark re game theory. Not sure about your position here, or whether it's true under all conditions. But in gener, it accord with the truism that no law can survive or be effective if it's not supported by a significant majority of the community it affects. From miller7398@comcast.net Wed Jan 28 23:30:23 2009 Message-Id: <007101c981ca$4c0172b0$dcd61b4c@tapa965> From: "Joyce Miller" Subject: Eucomis Date: Wed, 28 Jan 2009 20:30:20 -0800 Dear All, In the window of an office at the Berry Botanic Garden is a Eucomis scape that bloomed in 2008. It is set in a glass of water. The inflorescence is dessicated but it has now developed a growth that looks like a flower but is not a Eucomis flower. Is this a bulbil? The plan is to remove the small growth with a razor and try to root it in the greenhouse with bottom heat. Any comments, questions? Best wishes, Joyce Miller, rainy, snowy, windy Gresham, Oregon USDA 8. From drpaulbear@xtra.co.nz Thu Jan 29 00:42:19 2009 Message-Id: <4622480CA2364A2BA99F8B9F4B935C4F@Pauls> From: Subject: eucomis Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2009 18:42:10 +1300 i have propagated eucomis from leaf cuutings From africanbulbs@haznet.co.za Thu Jan 29 02:22:35 2009 Message-Id: From: "Rhoda and Cameron McMaster" Subject: Eucomis Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2009 09:13:13 +0200 Joyce wrote: " In the window of an office at the Berry Botanic Garden is a Eucomis scape that bloomed in 2008. It is set in a glass of water. The inflorescence is dessicated but it has now developed a growth that looks like a flower but is not a Eucomis flower. Is this a bulbil? " Is the growth at the top end of the scape? When the seeds are ripe, the whole scape can usually be eased out from amongst the leaves without breaking (conserves its moisture). We often place the whole mature Eucomis inflorescence in a box in order to dry it and reap the seed. Very occasionally a little bulbil with tiny leaves forms in the 'topknot' (coma) of leaflets - it takes about two months or longer, to develop. And as "drpaulbear" states, leaf cuttings usually produce bulbils too. I have tried layering the fleshy stem, but that hasn't worked yet. Rhoda in hot and dry Napier but a beautiful pot of Cyrtanthus elatus hybrid (x montanus) in flower From vikingdoc@earthlink.net Thu Jan 29 12:31:58 2009 Message-Id: <380-220091429173159359@earthlink.net> From: "Kathy Stokmanis" Subject: Naive ignorance and importation Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2009 09:31:59 -0800 I lurk most of the time but this discussion (altercation?) has reminded me of my own path to knowledge. Years ago I resisted and resented policies that restricted my ability to transport or obtain plants. Moving to California exacerbated the problem, since there are additional restrictions here. However, news reports, discussions such as this and an internal shift in values has helped me understand the problems inherent in unregulated distribution of plant material. I still believe that eventually everything is going to be everywhere, given this global society, and the impact that will have upon the world may be very negative. but I don't want to be known as the person who imported some nasty into the current ecosystem I live in. Sometimes I need to be reminded of why I'm very careful about private trades and this discussion has served that purpose. Thanks to everyone who takes this seriously on all sides of the issue, because your passion and knowledge really helps those of us who have been naively ignorant but well-meaning. Kathy Sierra Nevada foothills, zone (8/9) very hot summers, cool but no longer wet winters. From mikemace@att.net Thu Jan 29 14:00:54 2009 Message-Id: <003b01c98243$e807ba10$b8172e30$@net> From: "Michael Mace" Subject: Importing bulbs and seeds Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2009 11:00:50 -0800 Welcome and nice post, Byron. I'll be interested to hear how your permitting experience goes. >>I find it curious that I can mail in an application with no ID requirement, but for online transactions I need to go in person to provide ID before setting up an account... If it's good enough for the IRS, shouldn't it be good enough for APHIS? Maybe Bill A. can confirm this, but the impression I get is that USDA had a pre-existing online permitting system for much bigger stuff, and retrofitted the small seed packets program into that. So the issue is not that they necessarily want a photo ID from seed importers, but you need that in order to do online permits with the USDA in general. The problem for me has been that the ID approvers at the USDA are located in the USDA's field offices, which in my part of California means rural areas. So there is no ID approver in all of Silicon Valley; the closest is in Hollister, 1-2 hours to the south of me. I complained about this to one of the APHIS phone support people (who was very polite and responsive, by the way), and he said the approver might accept a copy of my ID by fax. Apparently some of them do that. I asked my approver about that, and she refused. She wouldn't even accept a mailed, notarized copy of my photo ID (I offered). It's all typical stuff that you get when dealing with a big bureaucracy -- procedures driven by the internal conditions of the organization rather than customers, unclear rules inconsistently enforced, etc. Doesn't mean anyone is trying to be evil; it's just a result of any large organization. The way to deal with it (in addition to talking to Congress) is to share information on how the system really works, and get advice from insiders who are willing to help. Which we're doing here. Progress. Thank goodness for the fax option for getting a permit. Mike San Jose, CA (zone 9, min temp 20F) PS: By the way, Bill A, if you're looking for to fix the ID problem -- we should be able to apply for a PPQ 587 permit with level 1 eAuthentication rather than level 2. Please. It's level 2 that requires the photo ID. From hornig@earthlink.net Thu Jan 29 14:11:40 2009 Message-Id: <25472701.1233256290045.JavaMail.root@elwamui-polski.atl.sa.earthlink.net> From: Ellen Hornig Subject: Importing bulbs and seeds Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2009 14:11:29 -0500 (GMT-05:00) I kinda wonder whether the USDA's computer systems aren't close cousins to the IRS's. The last time I called PPQ at JFK (2 years ago, admittedly) to see whether they'd had any contact with some arisaemas I'd ordered that had been en route for 1 month from the Czech Republic, the woman I spoke with said she would check the "ledger" and get back to me. When I inquired whether it wouldn't be in a searchable database, she said no, in a ledger. She subsequently called back and said the shipment had neither been logged in nor logged out, e.g. had never been in their hands. The next day it it arrived at my house, all properly stamped and released by APHIS at JFK. I like to think the system has since been updated... Ellen > >Mike >San Jose, CA (zone 9, min temp 20F) > > >PS: By the way, Bill A, if you're looking for to fix the ID problem -- we >should be able to apply for a PPQ 587 permit with level 1 eAuthentication >rather than level 2. Please. It's level 2 that requires the photo ID. > > >_______________________________________________ >pbs mailing list >pbs@lists.ibiblio.org >http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php >http://pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki Seneca Hill Perennials 3712 Co. Rt. 57 Oswego NY 13126 Phone: 315-342-5915 Fax: 315-342-5573 www.senecahillperennials.com From adam14113@ameritech.net Thu Jan 29 14:31:56 2009 Message-Id: From: "Adam Fikso" Subject: Importing bulbs and seeds Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2009 13:31:39 -0600 Ellen. You give me hope. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ellen Hornig" To: "Pacific Bulb Society" Sent: Thursday, January 29, 2009 1:11 PM Subject: Re: [pbs] Importing bulbs and seeds From brown.mark@wanadoo.fr Thu Jan 29 14:37:06 2009 Message-Id: <9348302.74821.1233257824247.JavaMail.www@wwinf2215> From: Mark BROWN Subject: importation discussion and PBS Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2009 20:37:04 +0100 (CET) Dear Adam , curiously I have just finished reading the account of the introduction of Kudzu by the american government of the time as a solution to the erosion problems caused by inappropriate agricultural methods which had lead to the famous "dust bowls" Mark > "Message du 28/01/09 19:40 > De : "Adam Fikso" > A : "Pacific Bulb Society" > Copie à : > Objet : Re: [pbs] importation discussion and PBS > > > Moving to other biological control models Snakes in Trinidad.--Bring in mongooses to control the snakes. Fine! Excellent results at first,. But after the snakes were eaten, and there were no more and the baby mongooses had to be fed, they started decimating the chickens on which > poorer and rural folks depended--wth resulting poverty . > > Australia provides better and more enduring examples of biological control gone sour.. But the kind of thinking here is known in the military as "Get a bigger hammer" i.e., more of the same. If an unregulated financial market provides examples of nationwide bank failure through bad judgment, then clearly what is required is more of the same.... > > ...People who import seeds as individal growers,connoisseurs or hybridizers are not often the source of the agricultural devastation that arises from Mediterranean fruit flies or similar agent. But I have never seen a studhy on the matter. Anybody know of any such studies? And how did Kudzu get into the country anyway? I'm going right now to look it up. " > From adam14113@ameritech.net Thu Jan 29 15:24:31 2009 Message-Id: <13836809F8564F1B88D31BE89E267564@FAMILY> From: "Adam Fikso" Subject: importation discussion and PBS Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2009 14:23:35 -0600 Re Kudzu. Not quite. As I read available Internet references... its use as a control for erosion, does not seem to have actually occurred until much later in the 30s and subsequently. It's first introduction in 1876 was as an ornamental and forage crop. That it has a use in Chinese medicine tends to be largely overlooked. Your reference and others conflate the two uses and dates. Yes the USDA was complicit in its spread, but, at th time, it was a reasonable solution. Getting rid of it is possible, and methods are specified on line. > Dear Adam , > curiously I have just finished reading the account of the introduction of > Kudzu by the american government of the time as a solution to the erosion > problems caused by inappropriate agricultural methods which had lead to > the famous "dust bowls" > Mark > > > From janemcgary@earthlink.net Thu Jan 29 20:01:25 2009 Message-Id: From: Jane McGary Subject: Importing bulbs and seeds Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2009 17:01:17 -0800 When I obtained my Small Lots of Seed Permit, I also ran into the on-line requirement to show up in person at an office. Not wanting to spend $10 to park downtown, where the office is, I opted for the postal application, and it worked fine, though it did take a while to get the documents and labels. Jane McGary From ksayce@willapabay.org Fri Jan 30 21:07:04 2009 Message-Id: <6ABCCF42-282E-4ADA-9D7C-5529F713835B@willapabay.org> From: Kathleen Sayce Subject: importing bulbs and seeds Date: Fri, 30 Jan 2009 18:06:29 -0800 I wonder if someone, or several someones, would be willing to compile a 'best path/optimal practices' document on importing small lots of seeds, to compile all the good hints on which boxes to check, which categories to mark, and so on, that could then be posted on the PBS website? I have been reading along, compiling notes on key steps, and suggest this as a simpler practice. I think that many readers would appreciate it, as would I. Meanwhile, my Pancratium maritimum seeds have indeed germinated, along with numerous Iris, Lilium and Calochortus seeds. Kathleen From brown.mark@wanadoo.fr Sat Jan 31 02:44:51 2009 Message-Id: <11410759.80211.1233387890044.JavaMail.www@wwinf1e20> From: Mark BROWN Subject: importing bulbs and seeds Date: Sat, 31 Jan 2009 08:44:50 +0100 (CET) Excellent idea Kathleen! Mark > Message du 31/01/09 03:07 > De : "Kathleen Sayce" > A : pbs@lists.ibiblio.org > Copie à : > Objet : [pbs] importing bulbs and seeds > > > I wonder if someone, or several someones, would be willing to compile > a 'best path/optimal practices' document on importing small lots of > seeds, to compile all the good hints on which boxes to check, which > categories to mark, and so on, that could then be posted on the PBS > website? I have been reading along, compiling notes on key steps, and > suggest this as a simpler practice. I think that many readers would > appreciate it, as would I. > > Meanwhile, my Pancratium maritimum seeds have indeed germinated, > along with numerous Iris, Lilium and Calochortus seeds. > Kathleen > _______________________________________________ > pbs mailing list > pbs@lists.ibiblio.org > http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php > http://pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki > > From janemcgary@earthlink.net Sat Jan 31 13:18:14 2009 Message-Id: From: Jane McGary Subject: importing bulbs and seeds Date: Sat, 31 Jan 2009 10:17:50 -0800 Kathleen wrote. >I wonder if someone, or several someones, would be willing to compile >a 'best path/optimal practices' document on importing small lots of >seeds, to compile all the good hints on which boxes to check, which >categories to mark, and so on, that could then be posted on the PBS >website? This has been done by Joyce Fingerut, the past president of NARGS who was the real driving force behind the establishment of the Small Lots of Seed permit program. I'll see if PBS could post some version of it. Jane McGary From markmazerandfm13@earthlink.net Sat Jan 31 16:46:45 2009 Message-Id: <30371845.1233438390291.JavaMail.root@elwamui-royal.atl.sa.earthlink.net> From: Mark Mazer Subject: importing bulbs and seeds Date: Sat, 31 Jan 2009 16:46:29 -0500 (GMT-05:00) > >This has been done by Joyce Fingerut, the past president of NARGS who >was the real driving force behind the establishment of the Small Lots >of Seed permit program. I'll see if PBS could post some version of it. > >Jane McGary > Hi Jane, You might want to caution interested folks that the USDA epermitting system becomes a real hassle if you are not an active user. If you are not logging onto your account every 180 days then you must reactivate the password and if you are not logging on every 400 days you must contact the USDA directly. The system works best for occasional users if one applies by snailmail or fax. I took some time today to review the procedures for the small lots of seed permits and they are really quite explicit and easy to follow just as I found when applying for my permit days after the system went into effect. One conondrum that I ran into is that I receive my mail at a PO box and they want a physical address. The solution is to have the mail for the physical address forwarded by the Post office to one's PO box. My two cents, for what it's worth. Mark