If we take the words literally as used for dicots, they simply do not apply usefully to monocots, it seems to me. By the way, I didn't make up the definitions cited; they are Ed McRae's in his book, "Lilies." John Gyer, working with Trillium, has gotten around this profusion of confusion with epigeal/hypogeal by coining two new terms, which refer specifically to physiology, whether the growth phase involves photosynthesis or not: photomorphogenesis -- growth process involving photosynthesis skotomorphogenesis -- growth process not involving photosynthesis. (if I have understood his use of these two terms correctly.) What occurs in some plants is that the germinating seed first produces a plant without involving photosynthesis. First, a bulb, root, or rhizome is formed underground -- regardless of where the seed was lying. Then, sometime later, that bulb or rhizome produces a green leaf -- hence a true leaf, not a cotyledon regardless of what shape the leaf has. This germination and development process is first skotomorphogenic and only later becomes photomorphogenic. A different sort of plant produces a green leaf or cotyledon shortly after germinating, and probably before the first rudimentary bulb has started to form. This germination is "photomorphogenic" from almost the beginning of the process. This first green leaf could maybe be a cotyledon, but I don't know whether or not it ever is in monocots. In Ed McRae's definitions, the epigeal lilies produce a green leaf sometime during the first season of growth, while the hypogeal lilies produce the first leaf only after a period of cold dormancy, so in the second season of growth. Do these descriptions fit monocot reality? I take it as given that the described growth processes do fit lilies, regardless of what we name them. I think they also fit some other geophytes. Some species of Scadoxus, certain Hymenocallis, etc., based on my own observations, do go through an initial skotomorphogenic phase of growth. As Jim McK. defined "epigeal germination" and "hypogeal germination" -- where the seed germinates rather than how -- the terms are trivial and almost meaningless, but are consistent with our discussion so far. They persist in the literature of plant physiology; and in horticulture and plant physiology, the terms clearly are not intended to have a trivial meaning, so what do they mean? I didn't make them up. This is an interesting discussion, and I wonder what plant physiologists currently working on germination, differentiation, and development would say about these terms? I'm simply trying to find a good definition of them for the glossary, so that I won't just add fuel to the fire of confusion when I try to use these words later on. Jim Shields ************************************************* Jim Shields USDA Zone 5 Shields Gardens, Ltd. P.O. Box 92 WWW: http://www.shieldsgardens.com/ Westfield, Indiana 46074, USA Tel. ++1-317-867-3344 or toll-free 1-866-449-3344 in USA