Hi sll, "Germination" seems clear enough -- when the embryo starts to elongate along its axis and proceeds to grow out of the seed. Here is definition of "germination" in http://biology-online.org/dictionary/Germination/ "The stage in which a germ or a living thing starts to sprout, grow and develop. ... Germination in plants is the process by which a dormant seed begins to sprout and grow into a seedling under the right growing conditions." Jim McKenny has it right -- applying the general definition to specific cases forces modifications to fit circumstances. How to twist the dicot definitions of epigeal and hypogeal to fit monocots is the task at hand. People do tend to confuse the first above-ground appearance of a green shoot with germination of a seed. This is not a correct technical use of the term "germination." For seeds that germinate above ground or in petri dishes, the first appearance of the (white) radicle through the seed coat corresponds to true germination. The same thing applies to germination below the surface of the ground. Jim Shields At 11:58 AM 1/4/2010 -0800, you wrote: >The problem is the inclusion of 'germination'. The definition of hypogeal >and epigeal is clear. > > T > > > Date: Mon, 4 Jan 2010 14:51:09 -0500 > > To: pbs@lists.ibiblio.org > > From: jshields@indy.net > > Subject: Re: [pbs] Define Epigeal and Hypogeal > > > > The problem with the simple definition -- cotyledons above ground after > > germination vs. cotyledons below ground -- is that for many monocots, the > > cotyledon stays inside the endosperm structure and that is where the seed > > was -- above ground or buried, happenstance perhaps -- when the seed > > germinated. > > > ************************************************* Jim Shields USDA Zone 5 Shields Gardens, Ltd. P.O. Box 92 WWW: http://www.shieldsgardens.com/ Westfield, Indiana 46074, USA Tel. ++1-317-867-3344 or toll-free 1-866-449-3344 in USA