Jim Shields wrote: “As Jim McK. defined "epigeal germination" and "hypogeal germination" -- where the seed germinates rather than how -- the terms are trivial and almost meaningless,” I’ll agree, Jim, that the terms might seem trivial to some people; but meaningless they are not. They mean exactly what they say, and in doing so they violate one of our usual assumptions about words, namely that they do not mean what they literally say. That’s why we usually observe a distinction between the denotation and the connotation of a word. That’s why we often have pairs of words in English, one derived from the Latin and one derived from the Greek, whose etymology seems to suggest a similar meaning, but whose usage is another matter altogether; consider the words innocence (Latin) and ignorance (Greek). To someone speaking literally, the word combination “hypogeal germination” does not mean the same thing it does to someone speaking in any of the several contexts in which that word combination has specialized meanings. I was not trying to “define” these terms; I was simply trying to get to the source of your uncertainties. You went on to write: “They persist in the literature of plant physiology; and in horticulture and plant physiology, the terms clearly are not intended to have a trivial meaning, so what do they mean?” I think Tim has already pointed to the answer here: there is a bit of ellipsis involved here. If you read the old accounts of the usage of the terms epigeal and hypogeal in the lily literature, these terms refer to the position of the cotyledon shortly after germination. Those lilies which produce a cotyledon which appears above ground (typically with the seed coat dangling from it) are said to have epigeal germination. Sorry, I didn’t make that up. The term does not mean, literally, that the germination is epigeal. It simply means that the germination process produces a cotyledon above ground. In the same way, those lilies whose process of germination keeps the cotyledon underground are said to have hypogeal germination. In this case, the term hypogeal germination is literally true. But all lilies are capable of hypogeal germination in the literal sense, but not in the specialized sense. Lily growers add another qualification: the time of the initiation of the germination process. They distinguish between lilies which germinate immediately (or within a period of weeks) and are said to have immediate germination, and those whose germination is delayed and are said to have (surprise!) delayed germination. Since the position of the seed when it germinates (i.e. if it is above ground or below ground) is not taken into consideration (in spite of the terminology), that leaves the four categories mentioned in my earlier post (immediate epigeal, delayed epigeal, immediate hypogeal and delayed hypogeal). Here are examples: immediate epigeal – most lilies, in particular most trumpets, most Asiatic hybrids; delayed epigeal – several uncommonly grown lilies such as Lilium pomponium and the members of the genus Cardiocrinum, long considered lilies; immediate hypogeal – Lilium dauricum and L. philadelphicum; and delayed hypogeal – Lilium speciosum, L. auratum and their hybrids, most of the North American lilies, Lilium martagon and its relatives. Within each group, when large lots of seed are sown plants which do not conform to the expected pattern sometimes occur. With respect to the uses of the terms epigeal and hypogeal in lilies, those concepts did not originate with McRae. They have been in common use among lily growers for over a half century. I’ll bet the terms originated with agronomists. Also (sorry to be so nit-picky) when you wrote “while the hypogeal lilies produce the first leaf only after a period of cold dormancy, so in the second season of growth”, that’s not quite true. Lilies which show hypogeal germination are of two types, called delayed hypogeal germinators and immediate hypogeal germinators. The former is the larger group, and only a few lilies (such as L. dauricum and L. philadelphicum) show immediate hypogeal germination. I’m going into detail here because those lilies which show immediate hypogeal germination produce their first leaves almost immediately and do not require a cold period for leaf production. John Gyer was on to something when he coined the words skotomorphogenesis (ouch! Where are the orthography police when you need them?) and photomorphogenesis. I’m skeptical of the utility of these terms because they are, in effect, red herrings. The presence or absence of light is not what this phenomenon is all about. So-called skotomorphogenesis is an adaptation to winter conditions: it allows plants to take advantage of a much longer growing season and to have ready a much developed embryonic plant by the time clement growing conditions return. If I’m understanding the term correctly, it’s common in many plants which are native to areas with severe winters. Plants as diverse as oaks and blood root show this phenomenon. The initial growth observed in some plants which typically germinate in the dark and the initial growth observed in some plants which typically germinate in the light are probably driven by the same factors in both cases, namely by food reserves in the seed. In both cases, photosynthesis comes to play a part later. The “morphogenesis” observed during the earliest phases of germination is not in a fundamental sense caused by either dark or light. If you germinate bean seeds on a piece of wet towel in full light, and germinate another lot of bean seeds planted an inch deep in soil, you get roughly the same results: the seeds grow into bean plants. It’s tempting to say that the bean seeds which germinated in light are an example of photomorphogenesis. But does that mean that the bean seeds which germinated in the dark are exhibiting skotomorphogenesis until they emerge into the light? This topic is growing nicely, isn’t it? Jim McKenney jimmckenney@jimmckenney.com Montgomery County, Maryland, USA, 39.03871º North, 77.09829º West, USDA zone 7 My Virtual Maryland Garden http://www.jimmckenney.com/ BLOG! http://mcwort.blogspot.com/ Webmaster Potomac Valley Chapter, NARGS Editor PVC Bulletin http://www.pvcnargs.org/ Webmaster Potomac Lily Society http://www.potomaclilysociety.org/