Dylan: We've obviously traveled with a different group of botanists. In 30+ years of field work, I am hard pressed to think of more than 1 or 2 professional botanists that I've ever run across who could identify plants correctly in the field. That is not the case with keen plantsmen of which I prefer to travel with since we can usually identify plants in the field with a very high degree of accuracy. I would not have had a problem with the example I mentioned earlier, if they had said, Yes, it's a phlox. We'll need to consult herbarium specimens to determine which one. But, to not even recognize a native phlox as a phlox...sorry, that's pitiful. I'm not intending to demean herbarium taxonomy, as we would all be lost without it. I have spent a good bit of time studying in herbarium, both in the US and around the world. My fear, also confirmed by many botanists with which we work, is that schools are putting less emphasis on field botany and more on lab skill...their words, which I concur. While some identification characteristics are only visible in dead, smashed plants, many others are only available in living plants; i.e. how the plants actually grow along with population diversity. These characteristics are almost never included in keys written by herbarium taxonomists. We are currently working with researchers to "fix" the genera ophiopogon and liriope. I nearly screamed when the new Flora of China declared there was only six species of liriope, when we grow nine. Someone who obviously had never seen a living plant merged totally distinctive species like L. muscari and L. platyphylla. There are unquestionably some fabulous field botanists, many of which are on this list. The problem is that I don't see these truly great human resources being replaced by the younger generation. Tony Avent Plant Delights Nursery @ Juniper Level Botanic Garden 9241 Sauls Road Raleigh, North Carolina 27603 USA Minimum Winter Temps 0-5 F Maximum Summer Temps 95-105F USDA Hardiness Zone 7b email tony@plantdelights.com website http://www.plantdelights.com/ phone 919 772-4794 fax 919 772-4752 "I consider every plant hardy until I have killed it myself...at least three times" - Avent -----Original Message----- From: pbs-bounces@lists.ibiblio.org [mailto:pbs-bounces@lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf Of Hannon Sent: Friday, November 02, 2012 4:07 PM To: Pacific Bulb Society Subject: Re: [pbs] Locality data Tony, Yes, but for every such case how often have you been in the field with a botanist who confidently affirmed "That is Arisaema species x"? The idea that so many botanists are crippled without dried specimens for study is not accurate. A good field botanist may stumble over a few plants in an area known to him but his direct knowledge of living plants will outweigh those plants many times over. Some plants show certain characters best when they are dried (drying blackish, etc.) so it is not a "cop-out" to resort to identification based on dried material. To identify a plant in a difficult genus often includes critical comparison with specimens in the herbarium. Many plants are not difficult to identify either live or pressed, but some are. Perhaps we should ask ourselves what we expect from the botanical profession, and if it is at all realistic to expect them to function perfectly with only living plants. If your botanist is perplexed by an unfamiliar Phlox, how well would any of us fare with only herbarium sheets of random Zephyranthes? Are those sheets worthless because they are difficult to match up with living examples of the same species? I note that medical doctors routinely ask for samples that mean nothing to us visually. That does not invalidate their importance. Dylan On 2 November 2012 12:31, Tony Avent <Tony@plantdelights.com> wrote: > Dylan: > > I think many of us are bemoaning the fact that field taxonomy is a > becoming lost skill. I've lost track of how many times I've shown a > growing specimen to a taxonomist/botanist and had the effective reply > of; kill it and smash it...then we'll tell you what it was. A few > years ago, I participated in a native plant inventory field count in a > wild area near us. I figured I'd take a flowering phlox that I'd > found years earlier from the Virginia shale barrens in hopes of > getting a confirmed id. The phlox was passed around through then > hands of 30 different expert botanists including botany professors. > After it had a thorough examination by each, the group leader declared > that is was most certainly in the Polemoniaceae family, but after > making a herbarium specimen, he might be able to tell me more. You just can't make this stuff up. > > > Tony Avent > Plant Delights Nursery @ > Juniper Level Botanic Garden > 9241 Sauls Road > Raleigh, North Carolina 27603 USA > Minimum Winter Temps 0-5 F > Maximum Summer Temps 95-105F > USDA Hardiness Zone 7b > email tony@plantdelights.com > website http://www.plantdelights.com/ > phone 919 772-4794 > fax 919 772-4752 > "I consider every plant hardy until I have killed it myself...at least > three times" - Avent _______________________________________________ > pbs mailing list > pbs@lists.ibiblio.org > http://pacificbulbsociety.org/list.php > http://pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki/ >